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Random people, random topics, talking on random sidewalks in the City of Saginaw, Michigan.
Sidewalk Talks episode no. Season three. Episode one, Marlana Cork.
Speaker 2:I just make you that comfortable.
Speaker 1:Make me all flustered there, Marlana Cork. Marlana Cork, good to talk to you.
Speaker 2:It's good to see you again, my brother.
Speaker 1:You're my first episode of this season.
Speaker 2:Oh, really?
Speaker 1:Yes. I'm honored. Well, I was thinking like, who who can I really set the tone with? And I said, well, Marlana.
Speaker 2:You thought about me? Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, because I mean, we go back a little bit and we've had a lot of conversations. And it was like, when when I take a little break, it's you feel a little rusty. Mhmm. And so I was like, Marlana's my girl. Alright.
Speaker 1:How have you been?
Speaker 2:I've been wonderful. You look
Speaker 1:younger every time I see you.
Speaker 2:See, this is all this melanin popping, you know. Thank you. But thank you. I love that.
Speaker 1:Thank You're like, you've always got like a cool haircut and then the next time I see you, it's even cooler and you're always looking trendy and fashionable and I just like wear the same clothes every day.
Speaker 2:This is what 48 looks like.
Speaker 1:Is it? Mhmm. Wow. Mhmm. It's looking good.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Speaking of age, I realized just I went to the dentist yesterday. I had to get a crown put on. Mhmm. It's terrible.
Speaker 1:I realized that, like, as you get older, the more often you go to the dentist. They're like, man, this is this sucks. Yes.
Speaker 2:I can do more things with my time than going to the dentist. Yeah. Yes.
Speaker 1:A couple trips ago, had to get, like, teeth pulled and stuff. Uh-huh. Right now everybody's like, Phil has terrible dental hygiene. It's fine.
Speaker 2:Yes. I'm Hey, this is what you have to do.
Speaker 1:Don't judge me.
Speaker 2:I'm I'm getting to the point. I like I like going to hang out. You know when you have to get blood work done?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like, that's the hangout spot. Go go to the gift shop, get some popcorn.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Cheer Yeah. Make a nice That's dates.
Speaker 2:I told my husband, I said, that's what we're gonna do. We're just gonna go hang out. Yeah. Let's go, you know
Speaker 1:I like that.
Speaker 2:Do all the things.
Speaker 1:I like that. Like, if you're gonna go do the thing
Speaker 2:Let's do it.
Speaker 1:Let's reframe it a little bit like an outing. We're gonna take the day, we're gonna pamper ourselves, we're gonna get a root canal or two.
Speaker 2:Yes. Yes. You know, all of that. Buy a crossword puzzle, sit down and just relax and people watch. It's the best.
Speaker 1:I love it. So along with you being amazing, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you first was to really talk generally about the community. I mean, a lot of the episodes that that we do here on Sidewalk Talks, it's business owners and specifically about the organization, but really at the heart of it, it's it's community. It's about all these amazing people doing really, really incredible things within the community. And so I thought it would be good to take an episode to really kind of like dissect that idea a little bit.
Speaker 1:And it tell us first before we we get into the nitty gritty, can you can you tell me a little bit about your your experience either personally or professionally within community just for folks that don't know who you are so that they can get a little bit of a picture of your community experience?
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely. Well, as you know, I currently work for Great Lakes Bay Health Centers which is one of the most fabulous organizations to work for because we're embedded in the community, right in the neighborhoods to take care of our people, to take care of our community. Personally, I have been taught you take care of each other. It's not just about family, you take care of your neighbor. My grandparents showed me that.
Speaker 1:Tell me about your grandmother.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness. Well, if you're from the East Side Of Saginaw, you know about the neighborhood candy store. Excuse me. It's actually the candy house is what it is.
Speaker 1:What was her name?
Speaker 2:My grandmother's name was Helen Lane. She lived on 2341 Berkeley Court, right behind Heaven Ridge School. That's the elementary school we grew up in. She sold pops, she's so penny candy. And the one thing that I loved about her, no matter who it was, she didn't even have to know the kids, is she saw that they were acting up, they listened.
Speaker 2:Because you know what? Her house was a safe house. It was where whatever you needed, if you felt like, hey, not only can I go get a pop, but I can feel safe if needed? She took care of her church. I think she babysit every kid on the East Side and we didn't understand it because we were like, why are these people here?
Speaker 2:This is our space. Yeah. My grandma. This is my grandma. My sister, my brother, my cousins and I were like, this is our house.
Speaker 2:What are you doing here? But what we didn't realize is that she was showing us, this is how you take care of each other. It's just not about you. When you take care of each other, they take care of the block. They take care of the church.
Speaker 1:Do you think that that value that she had was instilled in her by her parents? Do you think it was more about who she was? Like, where did that come from for her do you think?
Speaker 2:I'm gonna be honest. I think that was just her.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I didn't have the opportunity of knowing my great grandparents because they had passed on. Yeah. And she was such She was a 110 soaking wet, but she was such a firecracker about being intentional about what she was doing and showing up. To me, that's part of when you are embedded in the community, you're committed and intentional about how you're gonna show up for your people.
Speaker 1:And that I think is why this conversation about community and not just this one, but every conversation about community that anyone is having anywhere is is so important because you can't remove yourself from a community. Like like we we we try to departmentalize ourselves and like, well, it's my life and then the civic life. Mhmm. And those things are inseparable. Like, you are living in a place Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Around other people, you are part of that community, whether you're aware of it or not, whether you choose chose it or not, whether you're anything or not. And because I think of that quality, I love your word embedded. Mhmm. Like you like you it community is inherent in every one of our lives and how you, experience that is up to you, but you can't run away from it. Talk to me about what you learned from her, about what it takes to build community.
Speaker 1:You brought up this, this idea of being embedded and showing. Was there anything else that you learned from her?
Speaker 2:I learned that it's hard.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:And sometimes you may not always want to show up. You may not always want to be that one because not everybody is on that same page with you. That's making a choice on how you're gonna show up and still committing to being there and being present. When she would do things in the church and run programs, even though she may have people against her to say, yeah, we don't wanna do that. We don't like And we think it should be done this way.
Speaker 2:Not that she necessarily conceded. However, she still found a way to say, You know what? Well, regardless of what needs what you say or what I say, we gotta get it done, so how are we gonna do that? So the challenge was put out there too. We still gotta get this done.
Speaker 2:And that's what sometimes is hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah. See, this idea of there are days when you don't want to show up, but you have to. It connects with this idea as I was driving over here. I was thinking about all of our past conversations and a lot of our conversations revolve around being parents.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes.
Speaker 1:And when when you said specifically that, it connected immediately to my experience of being a relatively new parent in that you go you go into parenthood thinking like, I love these perfect little babies and I'm gonna love every single day of this. And it's and like, yeah, there's gonna be some hard times, but whatever, you know, whatever. And then until you actually experience like you day after day of hard work, stressed out life, all of these things, and then you go home and and there's a part of you that just like says, man, I wish I could just take a break. And you can't because you're always gonna be a parent. And I and I love this idea of like, you're always going to be part of the community and you always have to keep showing up even though there are gonna be days where you're just like, man, I just wanna throw in this towel and quit.
Speaker 2:You know why? Because the love. That unconditional love. I'm born and raised right here in Saginaw. And the good, the bad, the ugly, just like with my children, no matter what, I love, I love Saginaw.
Speaker 2:I love where I'm from. You know why? Because it made me the woman that I am today. Everything that we experience, your children teaches you how to love unconditionally, how to work through some issues that I don't necessarily want to face day to day, but you got to do it. That's what your community does.
Speaker 2:And if we don't remain committed to say we're going to show up to whether it's bringing the arts or whether it's bringing a program or just mentoring a child, who's gonna do it?
Speaker 1:Yeah. There's like when we talk about community, I think we have to talk more about relationship. Yes. Like we we like I love community. I love the word community, but unfortunately it ends up being very nebulous and like Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Community. It also has kind of this warm and Fakey. Yeah. Fakey. Like, I love community.
Speaker 1:But like real community is hard because real relationships are hard. I think about like, the learning I I I hate the word journey, but like like the journey of like being a spouse and being in marriage. Terry Riehl is a psychologist, specifically working with couples and with men. And he said, the day that you wake up next to your spouse and think they are not the person I married is the first day of your actual marriage. And that was so eye opening to me because like you go into marriage similar like to parenthood, like everything's gonna be great and and it's gonna be amazing and we'll
Speaker 2:have Perfect.
Speaker 1:We'll have like a two minute fight every once in a while, but it'll be good and things like that. And he really reframed it for me. It's like when you feel that, that is the moment of that first moment of your real marriage. And I think about that in terms of community is like Mhmm. It's any any community go to any community anywhere and you're gonna have a laundry list Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Of the things that you love and you're gonna have a laundry list four times as long of all the things that cause you grief and, you know, issues and imperfections, things that you wish you could do better. Yes. But that's what we have to accept because it's a relationship with community, it's a relationship with other people and we're not gonna always get everything that we want.
Speaker 2:No, and it's not going to always be smooth, that path. And I'm gonna say it, that journey, you know what I equated it to? When I was in college and I was an adult student. So married with kids, I'm up at night after working all day, working on papers, I'm crying and I'm like, why am I doing this for what? Nobody's gonna really understand or appreciate, nobody's gonna really care.
Speaker 2:That's sometimes what it feels like when you're remaining committed in the community. But at the end, when you're walking across the stage in the cap and gown and everybody's cheering, you're remembering those nights where you wanted to throw a baseball bat through the window.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you wanted to just throw down throwing blows like, don't talk to me. I'm up all night writing a paper. That's what it feels like when you are getting down to say, if I want something to happen, I need to make it happen. You can complain all day, but what are you going to do about it? And it's not easy.
Speaker 1:It's the unglamorous side of community work. Because it's relationship or it's relational and you're dealing with other people, when you're going through situations like that where it's really, really tough and something that you really believed in goes sideways or somebody's coming for you or a lot of people are coming for you hard because they disagree with you.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:It's a lot more intense than, like, going to McDonald's and they forgot to put pickles on your cheeseburger. Absolutely. Had a bad meal, but I'm gonna go on with my life. Like, it's existential because it's how you see yourself is how you're seen by the people around you. And so, like, like all of that intensity, all of that sometimes negativity, it's very, very difficult.
Speaker 1:And I just I wanna say to to anyone who is a community leader in any capacity, whether it's professionally or personally or, know, whatever it is, like, being a leader in the community is some of the hardest work that people can do.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:It's the hardest, the most complicated, the longest, the most existential. You don't get to punch out No. And say, like, I'm having some trouble at work, but at least, like, it it it it's pervasive in every moment of every day. And so I just wanna say to community leaders, man, we feel you, all the other community leaders, like they feel you, like you're going through some stuff, we gotta keep going.
Speaker 2:Yes. And the thing about it is it gets tough and you mentioned it. You get tired but when you're a leader, those things, you just know you have to do it no matter what. It's what you're committing to because you know in the end, in order for things to happen, somebody has to make the hard decisions. And sometimes that means attacks may happen.
Speaker 2:The pressures, just everything that comes with that, the weight that comes with that, because that also affects your family. And some people will say, I don't need to do this. That's why I didn't go into politics. Same. I'm drawing a line in the sand there.
Speaker 2:However, when you commit that time to go check on a senior, that doesn't take much. When you pick up a piece of trash on the corner, don't talk about it. Don't say what the city needs to do. Go pick up that piece of garbage. And some people think that you have to do all these remarkable things.
Speaker 2:We don't have to do that. Sometimes it's just the just keep it simple. Yeah. Fred Semper said. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Just just be simple minded.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We yeah. And I love what you're saying there too because we love really relegating community leadership to those who are the most visible. Mhmm. Those in positions of leadership, like formal positions of leadership.
Speaker 1:And what you're saying here is like like you can be completely unseen but still be a a community leader. Whether it's in your home, whether it's on your block, whether it's all of the and it's really about figuring out, like, where can I serve in what capacity? I love you bringing up, like, drawing the line of politics because I'm the same way. Like like, I I do not have the the the skin the thick skin necessary for that kind of work and God bless the people that do. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I know very well, like, that that's not I'm not I won't ever, like, rule anything out, but for the very foreseeable future.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Like, it not That's be a thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's not lane. So you gotta find your lane. So talk to me about, like in your experience, what works when it comes to building a community, starting a community, strengthening a community?
Speaker 2:Commitment. And I'm gonna give you an example of that. So I volunteer with the Saginaw Community Action Committee over on Perkins. And this past weekend, we celebrated some of the most awesome community leaders. Leaders that I knew nothing about.
Speaker 2:The leaders that are in the church, the young or the grandmother or the young lady that nobody talks about, you don't see all the Facebook or social media posts about, but when something happens or something is needed, they're showing up. It's, oh, you need to clean up the church or someone needs a ride to go get a food box. That's what we celebrated, those unsung heroes. Over the years, we're talking about thirty, forty years that people remain committed to, I don't care what you're doing, but this is what I'm doing. Find your lane, find what it is that you want to be committed to.
Speaker 2:And that's what I was so proud of because that's also creating a legacy. When you're creating a legacy of showing the next generation, this is what you're supposed to be doing. Not all of us know that. I was blessed to have that.
Speaker 1:There's such a lesson, so many lessons, but what you're talking about here is there's such a big lesson to learn from from previous generations. Those older generations in that in order to build community, you've gotta be in it for the long haul.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yes. Like like right now, we're like we're in it and it's like, man, I've been working at this thing for three years. So I've been working at this thing for five years. Yeah. One long
Speaker 2:way to go.
Speaker 1:Or like and and, you know, every day you open up Facebook and, you know, you see people getting into community for the first time. And it's really easy to get frustrated right away because, like, you're becoming aware of things and you're you're really passionate about an issue and you're three months in or you're six months in and you're like, why isn't this happening? And like, I'm so frustrated and we're so broken and it's really easy to, like, flip in the cynicism. Mhmm. But then you go to the the gala at the CAC and then you see folks who literally their entire lives.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Fifty years, sixty years, they have been just grinding at community, however they experience it.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And, like, you're you're talking like five decades.
Speaker 2:And
Speaker 1:so I think that the that's the one of the most important lessons that that addressing and improving a community requires a cultural shift.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And it requires changing people in a very complicated system. Mhmm. And the only way that works is over a long period of time.
Speaker 2:Yes. Like you said, you're in it for the long haul and there's gonna be a lot of disagreements. Everybody thinks, oh, means we all get along. We all like Superman ice cream and everything is great. No.
Speaker 2:No. It takes all types of people. It takes all types of ideals and ideas and saying, okay, now what are we going to do with it? One line that I gave in my welcome speech was community action only works when the community takes action. For me, even though, yes, that was something that I told the crowd because we were proud of celebrating sixty years.
Speaker 2:But then I had to think about that. Marlana, what does that really mean? What action are you taking? What are you doing? Could you do more?
Speaker 2:Could you mentor someone to show them? Because we talk about nobody's out here doing enough or doing this. Do we talk to each other? Do we sit down to say, let's have a meeting of the minds so that way we can figure out what is needed? It's not just, oh, we're gonna tell you what we're going to do and we're gonna build this building because you need it.
Speaker 2:Did you talk to the community members in that neighborhood? That's part of really taking action and being committed to making sure we're all working together in that sense.
Speaker 1:If you splice community down and the idea of like how do we make a place better, it really comes down to communication and action. Absolutely. And the balance between those two things. Because, like, if, like, if you're just about action and you're just about doing and, like, what I think is good and I'm going to inflict it on a community, like, it it you can do you can do good things in other communities that end up being terrible things in in your community. And you don't know that because you haven't communicated with people.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And then on the other side, like, we can do too much communication in which we we talk a lot about stuff and we have this great idea for this park that's going in. And then three years later, you're still talking about this this park. And so it's really this this balance between communication and then action and communication and then action. Is my action being informed? Am I communicating with an eye, while pursuing action or are we just talking about stuff to talk about stuff?
Speaker 2:And that's the thing. We have these big grandiose ideas and that's wonderful. That's great. But again, but if we're not moving on them and honestly it's really coming up with the plan of how are we going to take action? But we have to be in one accord on that.
Speaker 2:And we have to move in that sense because there's a lot of things that we've seen in our communities across the region that we're like, what's going on? This was said, why didn't this happen? Five years later, it still didn't happen because there really was no plan because we didn't communicate.
Speaker 1:Because we didn't communicate. And we didn't communicate well and we didn't communicate with enough people or the right kinds of people because it's easy to, like, stay within our circles. Absolutely. And then everybody's like, yeah. Go do that thing.
Speaker 1:And meanwhile, we've left out 90% of the community that's actually affected by that thing. And then we wonder why people don't like it. It's like, well, we left out the people that this most affects. And and I just wanna like clarify there too is part the one of the most important parts of community is being able to hold ourselves up and say, look at all the things and people and ideas and events and actions and developments that we have to be proud of. Look at us.
Speaker 1:It's putting the the the picture on the refrigerator. Like, you gotta walk into the kitchen every day and reminded, like, we are doing good things. We are amazing. But at the same time, like, we also have to sit ourselves down every once in a while and say, like, hey, we we need to be doing this better. Let's let's all talk in humility and in openness about, like, we we have to be doing this better and and we really, like, run away from, like, conflict and those negativities and disagreements and say, well, if you don't if you disagree with us, then you hate this community.
Speaker 1:Not like, most of the people that I talk with that disagree with certain actions deeply love the community. Yes. And they disagree out of that love. And I think that's that's a difference. It's like you can be very critical and almost like performative outrage.
Speaker 1:Like you wanna hop into the Facebook comment section and show everybody how much you love your community and meanwhile, like, don't do a thing. Like, that's very performative. But we gotta listen to the people who disagree with something with an ear to say, there there's some truth here and we gotta dig into that truth together and that's where the communication comes in.
Speaker 2:You know what I'm also hearing with what you just said? Accountability. Who's holding who accountable? When we say we're going to do something, when we say we're gonna move in a certain way and step out of our silos and step out of our comfort zones and say, okay, Phil, I'm holding you accountable. You said this, you're gonna be the leader on this.
Speaker 2:Now guess what? Now what's the timeline? What are we looking at? What are we running into? Who's holding who And that's part of what community is.
Speaker 2:I can't be afraid to tell you Phil, man, that don't look right. And you can't be afraid to say Marlana, come on, we gotta talk about this. Let's re examine that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I think that community or accountability is so important within a community. We I think we have to broaden our our definition of accountability because a lot of times the assumption is we as citizens when it comes to accountability, it's we as citizens holding those in positions of leadership accountable. And that is true. That's one of the forms of accountability.
Speaker 1:But at the same time, what I think we have to talk more deeply about is how do we as a community also hold ourselves accountable? Because otherwise, we turn into a community into us versus them, and that's not that's not community. No. And so, like, yes, we do have to hold leadership accountable. At the same time, we have to hold ourselves as individuals accountable.
Speaker 1:Am I doing enough? Am I communicating in the right way as well as I can? Am I at pursuing action? Are we as citizens also doing what we're responsible to do? Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And we're all holding ourselves accountable, and I think that's where the most progress comes from.
Speaker 2:I totally agree because we could be very dangerous with, Oh, this leader said this. And you know what? They didn't do it. They didn't do it by January 3 and they said they were gonna do it by January 2 and this doesn't look right. So we have to be careful with information.
Speaker 2:We have to be careful with how we're delivering that information when we're talking to each other. I call them keyboard thugs. Don't get on social media and be a keyboard thug. You can say whatever you wanna say, but that's dangerous. And that's not taking care of your community.
Speaker 2:It doesn't take much for you to sit back and say, you know what, although this information was delivered, let's sit down and in fact find together so we can get an understanding together.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That togetherness I think is so important because when you hand when you own only define accountability as citizens holding leadership accountable, what you're also doing in that is you're handing ownership of your community over to those in leadership. And and it is true, city councils, commissions, mayors, city managers, and not just Saginaw community, but all over. Like, they have a certain amount of power and determination of the community that a single citizen does not have. So Mhmm.
Speaker 1:They they are responsible in that case. But at the same time, like, when we just hand over the keys to the city and say, like, well, it's up to you to go and do the right things and, like, like, we yeah. We we also have to claim a lot of our power as citizens to organize, to build solidarity, to communicate with each other, to say that we are also responsible for this place too.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Step up to that county commissioner or city council member and say, you are the ones that decided to step up into this role. True. That's great. So they're the ones that say, Hey, I'll be willing to take this on my shoulders and be the face if need be.
Speaker 2:And you know what we're supposed to do still as community members? Support them. Support them because that's part of building that trust, not working in your own silo to throw rocks at them. What are you coming with it? Bring me some productive information and help because that's the only way this is gonna work.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Their success is our success. Absolutely. What I see in all the communities I work with across the country is kind of this initial assumption that those in power, those in leadership are also enemies. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And like, man, if if we're firing torpedoes at people in leadership, like that is our community too. There are are situations rarely where where you do have to fire torpedoes. But at the same time, like their success is our success. I wanna ask you this about accountability. Like when we talk about accountability, there there is kind of this feeling like everybody like, we're bracing for the conflict and for the terrible things to be said.
Speaker 1:Like, even if you're saying it in a really great situation, I mean, even now, it feels kinda like I'm kinda squirming into my seat a little bit. Like, you know, Phil doesn't like conflict, and we're talking about accountability. So how how do we change like, how do we change that? Because emotionally, personally, as people, we have to be able to handle accountability better. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:How do we start moving towards a a community, a culture where we can speak openly about great things that are happening but also negative things are happening and have those conversations be successful?
Speaker 2:Well, first off, we have to move out of our own silos. Get out of your comfort zone. It's easy to be at home and say whatever you want to say behind your own closed doors. But for me to get out, Phil, let's sit down and go have a cup of coffee. Phil, this is hard for me but I really, really disagree with some of the things that you say.
Speaker 2:I disagree with some of the topics that you've brought up, but help me understand. We need to be curious and ask more questions. Let's cause some good ripples with each other and ask questions and be more curious about that. If we don't take time to sit down and gain understanding as to what's going on instead of just assuming or because everybody else is saying something and you're forming your own ideas and assumptions about what's happening, nothing will ever get done. And that's because honestly, the bottom line is we're all fighting for the same things, but we never take time to sit down and talk to each other.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You said so many great things. The the sitting down and talking to each other, so important. I mean, like, the the, the instantaneousness of communication. Like, is social media a great medium?
Speaker 1:It is. Yes. But there's there's so much missing within the context of that communication. Time, presence, body language, the ability to to ask questions immediately as opposed to kind of ruminate on assumptions, like all of those things. But sitting down face to face, like, get to hack those things out in a twenty minute, thirty minute, hour and a half long conversation that you might be sitting on for six months, twelve months, maybe never getting over that issue because you're, like, you're you're kind of doing it at a distance.
Speaker 1:I'm thinking immediately, and I don't I don't think they're gonna mind because I've talked about this publicly. Uh-huh. But back a few a couple years ago, Jimmy Green, Alicia Martin Mhmm. Had a little bit of a disagreement. And I I looked over at I was at SVFC marketplace, and I look over at the table and there they are sitting across the table at each other talking it out.
Speaker 1:And I looked at like body language, they were very much like disagreeing. But there they were, they said like, we've gotta get together. We've gotta talk this through. Amazing. A couple weeks ago, met, Angel Gomez for the first time.
Speaker 1:We met up at at Redeye. Okay. And I said some things that he disagreed with. And he said like, like, I don't I don't necessarily agree with you. And we talked it through.
Speaker 1:And it was amazing. Like and he like, a shout out to you, Angel Gomez, because, like like, he very much disagreed with me, but I didn't feel attacked Yes. About it. Yes. And, like, it I walked away from that conversation thinking, like, like, yeah.
Speaker 1:Like, Angel, like, I'm still thinking about that conversation that we had a couple weeks ago, and I was wrong about some stuff. And I don't like, I don't feel, like, gross. Like, I'm not like, I had this terrible conversation today. I hate people. Like, like, it it was really, really good.
Speaker 1:And so, like, that your word curiosity? Yeah. Like, like, instead of jumping right to conflict, let's curious first.
Speaker 2:Yes. Yes.
Speaker 1:And then, like, after we've exhausted our curiosity, then maybe let's jump to conflict and say, I've drained that tank and now let's
Speaker 2:Now we're done. But didn't that feel good because and for me, because you know me, I like the conflict, but it's because I'm so curious. What makes you think that? What brought you to that point? And then when you sit down and really think about and dig a little deeper as to, well, this may have been some personal feelings I've had because of some personal situations that I've had to deal with.
Speaker 2:And then it's like, I get more curious. So the conflict that you had is now a simple conversation that trickles on down. And look how you grow from that. That's what we have to learn in our community. We have to also be willing to grow.
Speaker 2:It's like when you go to church and I'm a woman of faith that you're listening to the minister. I can go to church and listen to the minister every Saturday. But if I'm not ready to receive what's being said, I'm never going to change. I'm never going to do things differently. So, we also have to be willing and open to say, okay, this is happening.
Speaker 2:I'm uncomfortable with it, but I also have to be willing to give a little bit and be open and receive what's being what's being said, what's being done, or what's happening.
Speaker 1:You you dropped a line on me earlier with with your speech about being about action. And as you're talking, you you inspire me, Marlana. I'm gonna drop a line on you that conflict can either be catastrophic
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Or it can be catalytic. I Say that. Conflict can either be catastrophic or it can be catalytic. I love that.
Speaker 2:I love that.
Speaker 1:We we can go into a fight. I'll use the most negative term. We can go into a fight with the idea of trying to win. Yeah. And it becomes like this experience of power.
Speaker 1:And like I wanna con it really comes down to control. Like I want you to do what I want you to do. I want you to believe what I want you to believe. Yeah. Like I'm I'm trying to control you.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to manipulate the world and you and and all of these things. And that can be so catastrophic because it destroys relationships. And relationships destroyed relationships equal a destroyed community. Yes. And then, like, we're all just, like, fighting all the time and nothing is really happening.
Speaker 1:Or what we can do is approach conflict with the idea that it can be catalytic, that certain things can only happen through conflict. Yes. The truth can only be discovered in some instances through conflict. You gotta fight through the mess. Like, I'm thinking about, like, my personal relationships.
Speaker 1:Like, you sit down and and in this moment of conflict, you can either say, like, like, I'm trying to win, and then you win, and then you go to bed, and you're like, I just feel so gross. Yes. You know, like, things are still awkward after. Or you can say, like, man, I feel really gross. Like, this conflict is really intense.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. But it also is an opportunity.
Speaker 2:Yes. Yes.
Speaker 1:And I think, like, man, think about how transformative that idea would be. It's like every conflict that we go into is an opportunity for transformation. Yes. For something catalytic, whether it's at a large scale or I walk away with a new friend or somebody, I'm like, man, I can actually have an honest conversation with a person.
Speaker 2:Right. And that's transformational. And we may not necessarily again agree. So think about your marriage. I think about my marriage with my husband and I.
Speaker 2:We both come from single parent households and we have every excuse in the world to say, you know what? Our parents are divorced. We're not gonna try. Yeah. This August we'll be married twenty three years.
Speaker 2:So there was a lot of conflict but there was a lot of catalytic moments because we remain intentional to say, okay, I gotta talk to you cause we're not going anywhere but the backyard when we die. That's it. Nothing is gonna happen other than we're gonna have to talk this out. So the intention was there and we sat down to get curious, to find out a little bit more, why did you feel like that? What did I say that made you feel like that?
Speaker 2:Or why did you disagree with what I said? And as we talked more, then it helped us to open up even more to say, okay, I learned something else today. Now, about that? Just taking the time to talk, to learn something else, we never stop learning. And if we don't take that moment to sit down and try to figure out what is it that I can do to change?
Speaker 2:Because sometimes it's not about the other person, sometimes it's about you. Yeah. And that's hard.
Speaker 1:It's almost always about you.
Speaker 2:That reflection in the mirror, sometimes it's like, oh. Yeah. I don't wanna look at it today.
Speaker 1:It's not a coincidence that the word community, communication, and commitment are all very similar.
Speaker 2:Very similar.
Speaker 1:And what what you're talking about with your marriage to Charles, who is the dude? Just wanna give a shout out to Charles. He's my guy. Yeah. I love Charles.
Speaker 1:Like the the that idea of commitment. Like, it's like being together, being relational is not hard when people are doing what you want them to do, what you think they should do, when they're being nice to you, when they're being perfect, which is essentially what I'm saying. Like, when they're being perfect to you in every single way. Yes. Like, that's not hard.
Speaker 2:They're bringing their representative to you.
Speaker 1:Yes. Yeah. And the like, that's not hard. That's not but it's also not like, there's no growth there. There's no truth there.
Speaker 1:It's it's also not real. Right. And where, like, the commitment comes in is exactly what you're saying. It's like, for twenty three years, we have committed to be and Brian Pruitt, I had a great conversation with him and he was talking about, I, with commitment, I am open to being hurt by you. I am committed to this idea that I will be hurt by you.
Speaker 2:That's good.
Speaker 1:And like entering into these relationships, we have to go in committed to this idea that I will be hurt by you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I will be wounded in some kind of way. Like we can't have all the good stuff without the messy stuff.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:And you have to commit to the messy stuff.
Speaker 2:That's right. That's right. You don't get that degree without the the tears at night.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And we're we're so trained, I think, by our culture too. Like, I go to Amazon and I can search for literally anything in the world that I want. Mhmm. And all I have to do is look at it.
Speaker 1:And in literally now one click Mhmm. I can have it. And sometimes, like, right now, I could have it the same day, the same day Amazon shipping. Like, feel like drones will fly it and drop it on your porch. Yes.
Speaker 1:Like, I can literally have anything in the world that I want if I can can afford it. And a lot of times, even if I can't. Mhmm. And so then that trains us in how we deal with people. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:It's like, well, now people are, like, I I am entitled to any kind of person I want, any kind of community I want. And I I want this in my community. I should be able to click buy now buy now buy now. And I've got every civic center I want, every asset, every form of entertainment, a thousand places to eat. That's not the real world.
Speaker 1:That's not how things work. We have to be committed to the mess.
Speaker 2:Yes. Committed to the mess. That's the line for the day. Committed to the mess. And what are you going to do within that mess though?
Speaker 2:What is going to be your part? What action are you gonna take to kinda keep the mess together?
Speaker 1:Amen. Amen. I'm gonna ask you I'm gonna ask you two final questions.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:First, what kills a community the fastest? And then the second, what builds community the fastest or the strongest? So let's deal with the negative first and then close it out on a good note. Okay. What kills a community the fastest?
Speaker 2:What kills a community the fastest is arrogance. Why?
Speaker 1:Tell me, why arrogance?
Speaker 2:For one, with arrogance, don't be so arrogant to think that you're always right. Don't be so arrogant to think that you just know what it is that a community needs. You have to take time to listen, but you have to take time to be open because it's not painting the picture of what you want, it's what is going to be great for everybody and bringing the input of those individuals. Another piece of that is don't let fear get in the way of what could build a strong community that could break it down because, and what I mean by that, don't let the fear of other individuals, whether it's a diverse group, whether it's religious, it's culture, what have you, fear can get in the way of that. And we see that in our world.
Speaker 2:Instead of being open to one another, because we're all living day to day. We're all wanting the same things. We want to take care of our families. We want good health. We want to be able to eat.
Speaker 2:We don't want to pay a $100 a gallon for gas, but we let fear get in the way of making some true honest decisions and moving forward.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna say, I'm gonna tell you that when you said the word arrogance, there was I'm we're friends, so I'm gonna be very honest. Like Okay. There was a little little, like, reflex that I didn't like that answer.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay.
Speaker 1:Like, I didn't like that answer. And then as you explained it, I fell in love with that answer. Because, like like, arrogance is isolation.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:It's building these walls around yourself
Speaker 2:You silo yourself.
Speaker 1:From other people. Like, well, you don't know. I know. Mhmm. Or I am right and you are wrong.
Speaker 1:And that that is inherently destructive Mhmm. To community. And then also as you were talking and I think the reason why why I I didn't like it at first because, like, we a lot of times think about arrogance as being the person who's very vocal and, you know, like, they're always on Facebook or they're always talking the loudest or they've got the strongest opinions and that's a form of arrogance. But then also, like, you're thinking like the text thread arrogance or the, you know, that the during after the meeting, like, you you call all your friends and be like, that dude sucks or whatever. Like, that's all arrogance.
Speaker 1:I'm thinking about even myself. Like, I'm so arrogant about stuff. Like, just being so convicted about something that, honestly, I need to talk to some more people before I feel so strongly about it. And so I I really love that I that answer of arrogance.
Speaker 2:And and really it's just we all need to just self reflect.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And sometimes that's hard because we don't necessarily want to admit what we see. And then the fear. And then your last question was what can build a community?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:If we don't let those two words, at least those two, because there's so many more that we could talk about. But we need to be open, we need to be curious and we have to be willing to receive from others. Constantly, constantly be curious. I would say that's the very top word that I always wanna use. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Because that curiosity also checks you. Yeah. Makes you check yourself to take a step back and let me think about what's going on before I just talk or do or say.
Speaker 1:It also gives you more information.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And it also conf it is also helpful for the other person to give them an opportunity to explain more about what they mean, but then also for them to examine what they mean.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And I think like one of the best things that we can do is just ask more questions. That goes to like your idea of curiosity in that you may never actually convince me what it is you're saying. Like, I might be, like, existentially opposed to whatever it is you say.
Speaker 2:If that's okay.
Speaker 1:But when I ask questions, I gain more perspective of why you're wrong about that thing. So that's beneficial for me. But then it's also beneficial for the other person because it's it creates this environment where they can examine their belief in a way that is not inherently confrontational. Like, can you tell me more about why you think that? And if they don't really have any reason why, you know, like, okay.
Speaker 1:Cool. Let's move on. But then there's thinking on the drive home going like, oh, they like, has she
Speaker 2:said this.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Or or I'm I'm kind of embarrassed because I don't really know why. Mhmm. Like, like, why do I believe that? I don't I don't really know.
Speaker 1:Like, I don't really have a good reason. And then that's that kind of simmering Mhmm. Examination, I think, is what leads to change. I love your answer.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:And that's really why I wanted to talk to you because you're so smart.
Speaker 2:Oh, goodness.
Speaker 1:Now I now I look smarter in front of everybody. Marlana and We're smart together. Yes. Look at us. I I wanna thank you so much for for this conversation.
Speaker 1:More importantly, I wanna thank you for being amazing.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:And for everything that you do for us here in Saginaw, for your family. Tell Charles I said, hey. Of course. An absolute pleasure.
Speaker 2:Thank you. It's been a it's been a pleasure, and it was great sitting down with you again, Phil. Thank you. Likewise.
Speaker 1:Let's hug it out. Yay, bud. Love you too. Cool.