Cabinets Across the Home

Cabinets are mainstay in the kitchen, delivering storage options and providing a focal point for design. But their presence can be felt in other spaces, breathing new life in mudrooms, home offices, living rooms, kids rooms, and more. In this episode, we are joined by a builder to highlight the versatility of cabinets in room design and the storage features they offer. Later, the show breaks down everything on the horizon for cabinets across the home and what trends are being showcased, thanks to our friends at MasterBrand.

What is The ProSource Podcast?

Creating a design concept for a kitchen or remodeling an outdated bathroom requires an understanding of the products and services available to those looking to undertake such a project. The ProSource Podcast breaks down the home remodeling industry and highlights the merchandise and experience that it requires to achieve your vision. Join ProSource Director of Digital Marketing Content Kevin Devine, as he speaks with those who facilitate the ideal project and offer valuable information for how to choose the ideal products and services that transform your ideas into reality.

Hi, I'm Kevin

Devine and this is the Prosource podcast.

In each episode,
we'll be talking to industry experts,

including trade professionals, suppliers
and our showroom staff,

about a variety of topics
within home and commercial projects.

Enjoy.

Well,
welcome again to the Prosource podcast.

In this edition, we're joined
by Kevin Jones of Premier Homes.

Kevin,
thanks for joining us. Glad to be here.

This is everyone's dream come true.

Two Kevin's on one podcast.

I'm not sure that's the case,
but we'll give them a best shot.

Dream, Nightmare.

You know, it's all terminology.

So let's start with this.

Let's talk a little bit about tell us
about yourself and about Premier Homes.

Premier Homes we’re a small custom
homebuilder in the Metro East .

We don't build in volume particularly,
but more of the higher end custom homes.

So take an individual from

with no plan and lead them
through the entire design process.

Or sometimes

someone may

approach us with their own plans
and then we will execute that for them.

Okay. And by Metro East,
we should probably qualify.

We're talking Saint Louis, Missouri,

because for all I know,
we have a global audience

and they make sure that everyone
on all hemispheres understand.

For us,

the Metro East is just the Illinois side
across the river from Saint Louis.

So and I'm primarily in Edwardsville
community on the on the east side.

Okay, So today's topic is all about
cabinets across the home.

And so we're talking about of it's
not just for the kitchen and we're talking

about some of the different storage
and organization features of it.

What are some of the most common reasons
why homeowners are replacing

cabinets in the home?

And when that happens,
what advice do you tend to offer them?

Well, I think it's really mainly
two reasons to either

upgrade what they have currently
or update what they have.

So I do some remodeling.

I do more new construction,

but the remodeling I tend to do
is more of the larger scale.

So a complete kitchen, sometimes an entire
gut of a house, that type of thing.

So I would say
we're seeing some of the people

that are particularly in
that environment are in now.

Our interest rates have kind of
jumped up on us pretty quickly.

You've got people
that may have been interested

in purchasing a new home
or moving to another home of some type.

Interest rates have kind of trapped
some of those people

because of the low mortgage rates
that they have in hand,

as opposed to going out
and assuming that higher interest rates.

So they are more likely
to try to take the existing home

and update or upgrade that people
that would have normally upgraded.

They've been in the home for a few years,
a starter home possibly.

And now that they're able to
maybe take those builder grade cabinets

and that type of thing and upgrade

to something a little nicer,
a little nicer countertops and kind of

just update
and upgrade the entire home that way.

So this may actually be a question
on my list, but I'm going to go in address

and just being fair to you,
you are a builder and custom home builder.

So you're right,
there's not a whole lot of remodeling.

There is some,
but not a lot in your world.

We talk,
we use that term builder great cabinets.

But really what we're talking there is
sort of like the maybe the entry level.

But I would assume that
within the selection that you offer,

you're already offering some some upgrades
within that you're

looking at that whole scope
for the multiple design concepts

that people may have, The
the homes that we build and that

and the remodeling
we do is still typically an upper end

and no type of cabinet
that we're putting in those homes.

So I might have used the wrong terminology
in terms of builder grade.

It's usually a term
people are used to use in our industry,

you know, quite a bit
and probably too often.

But again, it's like you said, an entry
level home where it's more affordable.

It fits their budget at the time,

but now they've been in the home
ten, 15, 20 years.

They're obviously in a better

financial position, hopefully,
and they're able to take

some of that money
and reinvest in their home.

I do think sometimes
it gets sort of a negative connotation

when people say builder, great,

but that's covering a big spectrum because
there's a lot of different builders

that are out there.

And I say that, yeah,

we hear it all the time
and talking to customers

and you know, obviously
we compete with other builders

and there's just so much difference
in how each of us approach it

and the type of materials and workmanship
and quality that goes into a home.

So it can vary across
a pretty wide spectrum, of course, right?

When we're looking at the choices
of cabinets that people make,

do trends impact those cabinet choices,
either in both what you offer

and what people select?

So we're talking style,
color, wood type is

are people being driven more toward trends

when they pick the chemistry offer,
or is it just simply personal choice?

Yes and yes.

Okay.

Because trends are going to generate
activity or interest.

And I think that may draw people
into the thought process of

whether they want to do a remodel
or change their cabinets or update

their kitchen.

But still, it's got

I think there's an override factor
for the personal choice

and personal likes and dislikes,
whether that's, you know,

just colors or style or whatever
it may be.

But I certainly encourage people
not to get caught up in just the trends.

But it's kind of like
we're going to a new car.

You know, you're driving a car
for four or five years

and you see the new ones with all the nice

bells and whistles,
you know, gets the juices flowing.

You start thinking about,
you know, you can upgrade yours as well.

So it's kind of the same thing, I think.

Take it outside of the kitchen.

Yeah.

Everyone always thinks when we think
cabinets, we think kitchen cabinets,

but cabinets
are significantly more versatile

that there probably isn't a room
in the house that they can't go into.

So when you're building the homes,
designing the homes,

how often are homeowners looking to add
cabinets in rooms outside of the kitchen

and if so, what rooms
tend to be next on the list?

When you look outside the kitchen, I think
it comes down to budget, first of all.

So what can they afford to do?

What needs to be done the most?

So kitchens are pretty typical. Right?

Next in line is probably the bathrooms,
you know.

So and that's not a huge undertaking
in terms

of just the cabinet side of things,
as long as they're not changing,

you know, the layout, so forth.

But that's probably next on the list.

I would say, you
know, laundries are an easy one.

Obviously, mud rooms,
that's people are like the locker concept

that still hasn't gone away.

That's
still pretty attractive to most people.

So we're finding places or niches
where we can build

in some additional storage
for things like that.

And then there's always built ins.

And most of that we see in the great room
or living room concept where they're

trying to create some additional storage
of some type in the in the great room.

So those are usually the areas
we see at most.

Let's take it a little bit further.

Are there other creative places
that you find?

Sometimes homeowners begin
to lots of give a couple of examples.

Kids rooms would obviously come to mind,

but maybe also a little bit
just outside the walls, in the garages.

Are you starting to see cabinets?

Does that come up into the discussion?

Not as much, but yes, occasionally again,

it comes down to budget,
but particularly on a remodel anyway.

But we don't see it as much in garages,
although most people will

will go to the shelving or out
or something like that in the garages.

But kids rooms possibly,
you know, a little study area

desk area storage area for books
and that type of thing.

That's we've we've done some of that.

Probably one of the more things
that we haven't done a lot in the past,

but it's come up more recently
Butler's pantry, which is kind

of a nice idea and it makes a lot of sense
if you got the room for it

and if you have a butler,
well, most of them don't,

but I guess that's a terminology
that's got stuck with it.

Yeah, that so
but around for a while. Yeah.

And that's probably more a

new construction again but still it's,
it's a concept that people like

and I think it's driven a lot
by the open concept

which hasn't gone away

and I don't really see that changing
maybe a little bit, but

it's still a pretty popular floor plan.

So in the open concept,
you just usually don't

have as much wall space
for cabinet storage alone.

So we usually go with a big pantry
to kind of compensate for that.

Butler's pantry is a nice area
where they can display, maybe hide

some of their larger appliance type
things, countertop appliance type things

that they can get out of the way and
create more room in the kitchen itself.

Are there specific
specific storage features

when it comes to cabinets that homeowners
are wanting more outside it?

Just open the door.

There's some shelves, we're talking
pull out drawers or even maybe more

fancy options.

And we did talk about the butler's pantry.

But are other storage features
that you're finding

homeowners are starting to look towards,
especially setting aside the budget.

But just from a creative standpoint
that they're saying, hey, I'd like this.

There seems to be a greater use of things
that we didn't have before, possibly

least in my timeframe.

I go back a little farther, but

not that far behind you on that.

So, well, you've got the air fryers
and those can be large

and people are using toaster ovens.

I mean, there's a lot of convenience type

things that are utilized now
in the kitchen that maybe weren't used

as much in the past,
which creates a need for larger storage.

So which again, is where the Butler
Pantry really comes in. Nice.

But not everybody can do that
or have the space for it.

I think just organizational features
as much as anything.

So pots and pans,
you know, they're bigger, they're heavier.

So it takes a little more storage

thought in terms
of how you're going to accommodate that.

So utensils, the spice racks
and things like that.

There's just like a lot of maybe K-Cup
drawers with other single serve curing.

Absolutely.

Once again, that's another item
that people are trying to hide.

But a good, good mention that I didn't
bring up earlier is, you know, we do some

coffee centers, you know, where they have
those an entire coffee center.

yeah, yeah, yeah.

A regular barista station.

So what? Okay.

Starbucks in the home, they you know,
they definitely it's a popular item.

So if you could again make room for it
and it's something that that's out there.

If you looked outside of the kitchen,
are there any type of little storage or

organization features
that start to pop out in other rooms?

I would say probably again,
the built ins in a great room.

And that's that's really kind of depending
on the individual what their needs are.

Some people want the cabinets for the door

so they can hide the electronic components
or that type of thing.

Other people may need space for display,
so whether it's bookshelves

or floating shelves to display pictures
or artwork or that type of thing.

So that's probably what we see
outside of the kitchen or bathrooms

anyway, where we're seeing
a little more unique closets.

It's it's
been done somewhat in the closet,

which I think is a good idea

because we can take some of the cabinet
storage and create the drawer space

that can be utilized
in the closets as well

and look a little nicer
than some of the other options.

So this may just fit in with everything
you've just said, but are there

creative ways to cabinets have been
incorporated into just the general design,

not just of that room,
but maybe the house as a whole?

I think

cabinets
always influence the design of the house

to some extent because it's it's
a very prevalent feature of the home.

And again, in that open concept,
it's visible from all the living areas

of the home where your guests will be.

So we see oftentimes trying to carry
at least the the style of someone.

If we're doing a more simpler home,
we call it transition and tell you

a little bit more of a modern look,
I guess to it, cleaner lines and so forth.

We that kind of influences,
or maybe it's in reverse,

but that style carries
throughout the house colors as well.

So if you've got stained cabinets
in the kitchen, oftentimes, obviously

they have to complement the floors,
but we may carry that stain

over to the staircase
or over to the mantel on the fireplace.

So yeah, I think it all has to tie
together.

It's kind of a chicken and the egg thing

which influences which,
but it obviously plays a part.

We talked a little bit
about Cabinets in the bathroom,

so let's move there for a second.

How are we seeing
cabinets being implemented in bathrooms?

And I'd also like to look at
what are considerations

as far as chemistry
when it comes to the vanity

as opposed to just taking it
out of the box from the big box stores,

vanity versus something a little more
furniture, ask a little more custom,

even with cabinets being used,
they're you're a little more limited.

Obviously, in the bathroom.

You don't have a lot of space typically,

but people will get
a little more creative, I would say.

And like the powder room again,

because that's a guest area
that the guest is going to see.

So a little nicer space there probably,
but we'll see furniture

bases not directly related to cabinets,
but we know a lot of accidental

lighting or toxic lighting
that may be generated by motion.

So when

you're up in the middle of the night
and you walk in the bathroom,

the motion sensor
will kick all into the light.

So you can see your way
around the bathroom.

So, you know, you're just showing off.

You know,
I don't have that. Well, you should at it.

I'm thinking so you can do that for you
for a see there.

Phenomenal.

But you had me going to do that part.

But yeah, things like that.

But I think it's making
some of the cannons

supposedly out of the box in the vanities
and so forth.

Maybe a little more style created
if you can,

but again, you're somewhat
limited to what you can do.

But and I'm
probably the wrong person to ask,

you got people out there
and some ladies that we've worked with

that are pretty creative
and have some great ideas too.

So they're awfully helpful
when it comes to that. At the press.

Our showroom. Absolutely.
There you go. Plug that show.

Plug it. Quiet built ins.

We had mentioned the term earlier.

So let's just go ahead and start
talking about those.

They have a little bit of an

evergreen appeal
for both storage and display purposes.

How do you approach creating that esthetic
from when you're doing built ins versus

something else?

Again,
I think it kind of comes down to what

what's their objective with the built ins
and what they want to do with it

oftentimes will work for the architect
as well to try to create that look.

Probably the most helpful thing for me
as a builder is

when I meet with people and they say
they have an idea what they want,

but they can't really explain it
very well.

Is Pinterest and House

and all of the things that are available
out there for people today.

Just show me pictures.

Give me an idea

what you like or don't like about this,
or we can try to incorporate,

you know,

your your vision or your wish list
for that item and try to build

that into the process itself.

So that's probably the most helpful thing
we can do with the people as they can

show us what they really like.

So let's just touch on that

because I was thinking this also,
my head cabinets have advanced so much.

We talked about a little bit
of the automation aspect of things

and some of the unique storage features
that they have.

Sometimes people
they don't know, what they don't know.

They may not realize all the options
that are available to them,

and they haven't thought,
Wow, think of what

I could have now in my kitchen
or in my living room or in my kids room

because of these features
that are available.

How do you go through
just setting it up for them

of what all the different options are
and the things that they should consider?

Is there like a questionnaire process
you go through or is?

I'm not that sophisticated, unfortunately,
but I think it just comes out to

the conversation.

You know, some people are cooks, chefs.

They're you know, the kitchen means
something different to them than it might

someone else.

We have people that want a lovely kitchen,
but they just want it to look good

because they generally

don't use it that much,
but cracks me up in and of itself.

Okay, But but I know that happens.

Definitely happens.

So you kind of got to understand
from them, you know,

how are you going to use a kitchen?

What do you really need from the space
itself?

And again,

I'll defer to

your experts here at Prosource,
but they get to the bottom of that

better than I can
because they're true designers.

But I think trying to get through

some of the underbrush
and so forth with your client

before you send them down here,
then you kind of steer it a little bit

because it can be overwhelming
when they come into a place like this

that has a lot of bells and whistles
and trinkets, things to look at.

It's

you want to have a little bit more focus
and get them on the right track

so they don't get lost in the shuffle
a little bit.

So when it comes to cabinets,
what are some of the tips

you offer for preserving
and maintaining them?

So they last the qualities they are,
but it does require a little bit of work

sometimes, too,
that people probably don't think about.

If you buy a good quality cabinet,
it'll take good care of itself

and if you obviously install it correctly,
it's a big part of it as well.

But from there
it just basically to me cleaning

because you'll be surprised
and you'll happen in my house as well.

But you'd be surprised how,
how much dirt can accumulate

in a kitchen and on a kitchen cabinet
which will, you know,

have a pretty negative effect
on the effect on the finish at some point.

And you think that big fancy range,

it is going to take care
of all your grease and it does not.

It will get throughout the house.

So I think a good basic

cleaning is a big part of just maintaining
the look of them anyway, the soft closed

door doors and doors that are, you know,
pretty prevalent now or I think eliminate

some of that hidden stress
and some of the damage created by door

slamming when they weren't supposed to
or didn't mean to. That helps.

And just the construction itself
you know much better

hinges are made today a little heavier
and they will last longer.

The draw glides and so forth
are much better than what we used to have.

So those types of things, it's taken out
some of the risk we've had

with those maintenance and care issues

because they're just built better
and better options than we used to have.

Cleaning is probably the biggest aspect
of just maintaining that that a customer

can really do on their own.

I've tried to look for the grease
colored cabinets so I don't have to,

but yes, they probably have
probably said that they do

so that
actually brought up and thought to me

with all these advancements
that have happened with cabinets,

how do you stay on top of it all
so that you can better advise clients on

on considerations,
whether it comes from the choices

that they make all the way through
to the cleaning and maintaining of,

you know,

there's always industry publications
and whether there's the builder show

or something like that,
we as builders have access to that keeps

you kind of aware of the trends and,
you know,

improvements and types of things like that
that are out there.

But again, I mean,

just as it is available to our customers,
the things like a Pinterest or house

and those types of things

where you can see
what other people are doing,

I think the visuals are

just as important to me
as they are for our customers

in terms of,
you know, seeing things that work

and what else is out there
and that type of thing.

And then of course,
your manufacturers are out

keeping you abreast and aware of
what's new and what's out there as well

as, you know, our consultants here
prosource keep us pretty well clued in to.

So a variety of ways.
I think we can stay in touch.

Probably the most popular choice
of cabinets that people put in their homes

are the White shaker cabinets,
traditional clean, evergreen forever.

But maybe.

Or are you starting to see
maybe people are sort of turning away from

that because they do want a unique
look to their kitchen?

Lisa Maybe not unique,
but at least not that everything changes

over a period of time.

You know, right now we're now
we're very clean lines, you know,

a little more
that's a little more attractive

to more people,
I think, at this point than it used to be.

Cabinets, you know, used to be the more
crown

molding and corbels and glazing
and those types of things that was in.

And that's what everybody wanted.

And that's
that changes over a period of time.

Now, like I said, it's more clean.

The white has come back strong.

It's been around for quite a while.

Shaker is still popular, I think,
and will be always be an option anyway.

But I think you are starting to see
some people

come back into more of the woods
and stains and that type of thing

and mixing it.

You know, we'll have somebody
that may do a stained island

and then painted perimeter
and it could be white or another color

even, or stain bases with painted uppers
or that type of thing.

So you can mix and match
more of an accepted style,

I think an attractive style right now
that it's kind of moved in that direction

a little bit.

I think as a builder,
what let's look into your crystal ball.

What's on the horizon with cabinets,
especially new homes,

whether it's this year
or even maybe a few years down the line.

Do you see something that's trending for
maybe the next year or so,

but you also see something on the horizon
that could be coming down

or at least being more popular?

You know, I I'm an old builder,
so I'm probably not mature.

We don't use old well,

more old than I am mature.

I don't know if I'm the right guy
to answer that,

but some of the things I just mentioned
I think are what I see now.

That's maybe fairly early in the trend,
but colors, I see more colors, you know,

coming in.

So just to add a little interest, again,
I would encourage or discourage people

from just chasing a trend,
but let the trend influence

some of their personal choices
a little bit.

But I think color
the stain we talked about is a big item.

But in terms of, you know,
cabinet structure and that type of thing,

I don't think that changes a whole lot,
you know, the basics anyway.

But I think probably the the mix,
the stains and some colors being used here

and there are probably something
we're going to see

moved a little more to the forefront
than what we've seen in the past.

Kevin, we appreciate you joining us here
today and giving us your thoughts.

Glad to be here.

Appreciate it.

Thanks. Thanks.

So now we're going to switch gears a bit

and I'm joined by Stephanie Pearce
from best Friend.

Stephanie, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you so much for having me.

So let's start with the simple ones.

Could you tell us a little bit
about yourself?

You know, basic stuff,
you know, bank account number,

Social Security number,
those sorts of things.

Sure.

All the details that I love
to share regularly.

Exactly.

Thank you guys for asking
me to sit in on this with you today.

I'm really looking forward to being able
to share insights around trends.

That is one of my primary roles
for Mastering Cabinets.

I've been with the organization
for 23 years.

Primarily, as I mentioned,
trend analysis is a huge part

of what we do there
that helps lead us for better solutions

for our customers, but also, you know,
from a product development perspective.

And then just generally to be able
to communicate and educate changes

that are happening in our industry
with our customers and consumers alike.

So thrilled to be able to sit here today

and talk with you
about some of the exciting things

that we think
are happening in our industry.

That's great.

I don't know, talking to me,
I don't know how much the thrilled level

will stay high for you,
but let's go with it for right now.

Start.

But if you take this outside
of the industry,

not a lot of people know the name
Master Brand.

So what are some of the brands
that fall underneath your umbrella

that may be a little more recognizable
to people?

Yeah, of course.

So Master Brand is our umbrella company
where we have multiple brands underneath

that umbrella that offer solutions,
anything from same day takeaway

kind of cash and carry DIY solutions
all the way to fully

premium customized solutions.

So some of the more probably more likely

no names would be in our mass market
brands,

which would be like a Schrock
or Diamond or Kemper.

Those Cabinet brands offer solutions
anywhere from value.

Semi-Custom and semi-custom
is just a way of saying that you can

modify
and make to order your kitchen solution

and all the way up to some enhanced
semi-custom solution.

So being able to get additional features
like size,

height, width, depth, size
modifications and custom color.

So those are names that are commonly known
through the broader industry.

But then we we specialize on both ends
of that spectrum going from the core out.

So Omega is one of our premium brands
that has a lot of recognition

associated with it,
and that's a fully customized solution.

Essentially, if you can dream it
and it's safe for us to build it,

we will produce it.

Additionally, on sort of the in-stock side
of our business,

Aristocrat is a really well known
name, provides stock solutions,

meaning
there isn't a lot of customization,

but it's pretty standard
and it's got enough breadth to fill

the majority of what mass
consumers are looking for.

We also have another brand that we've just
launched in the last couple of years,

which would be mantra,
which offers a quick turn solution.

Similarly, not a lot of customization,
but you can get the cabinets really fast.

So what's really unique about the massive
brand portfolio is that we offer

solutions depending on what the need is
pretty much across the board.

So you work a lot
with on the professional side of things,

do you take their
input a lot into consideration

when you're developing new cabinets
or do they even have an influence?

What you say,
because they're out there in the field

working with these
all the time? Absolutely.

I mean, roughly 70% of our sales
go through trade professionals.

And so it's very important
to understand what their needs are,

both from a product perspective,
but also a service perspective.

We poll and talk to our customers
on a regular basis.

Our trends presentation
that we put together is based off

of a survey that is completely inputted
by trade professionals.

So there's a lot of different touch points

that will reach out to them
throughout the year

to give us that insight and feedback.

And it directly translates
to the solutions that we bring to market

there.

Yeah, then so let's take the kitchen
out of the equation.

We own it. All cabinets go in the kitchen.

That's just a given. But

what rooms are you finding on your site
to be the most popular for cabinets?

It's subtracting
that one from the equation.

Yeah, absolutely.

So it's it's interesting
how the consumer preferences around design

and esthetic and how they get
that inspiration has shifted over the last

I mean I'll call it the last decade,
but it's really taken a different turn

since the pandemic.

And so there's a lot more education
and online visibility that consumers

have to be inspired by the products
that they want to put into their homes.

So going beyond the kitchen rooms
that have really become focal points

for being able to drive creative esthetic

are things like craft rooms
and or laundry.

Oftentimes those two things get combined.

So laundry is a is another big opportunity

for us to integrate cabinetry solutions
and then naturally bath.

So both Master Bath and half Bath and
then home offices is another unique one.

So there's a lot of variation
in how solutions are built

for people to be able to accommodate
remote working or hybrid working.

And so we're still seeing
a lot of evolution in that trend.

So a lot more to come in that space.

Yes. Just

because you mentioned the Home Office,
did you see a significant

spike in that room during the pandemic
as everyone's forced to work from home,

wanting to make it a nicer environment,
to work from home?

I think immediately in the pandemic,
not not as much,

because I think there was
a lot of uncertainty

as to how long is this going to last
and what kind of solutions

I know I had people in my organization
who were working off the card tables

for a really long time
when remote working first kicked off

because there was just
a lot of uncertainty

at how long it was going to last
and what the evolution was going to be.

But I think it's
that environment is a lot more stable now

and so people have solutions around,
you know,

to what degree are they going to be remote
or hybrid

or what their work environment needs to be
to facilitate their long term needs.

So I think you're probably

seeing more of that evolution
happening in the last two years,

maybe in the last year, and certainly
continuing into the next couple of years.

It's funny how we talk about the pandemic
as if it was just yesterday.

It was actually started four years ago
when it really occurred,

but it's still so fresh in our minds
because the after effects

and may I state for the record,
I did not work from the card table.

I upgraded to the dining room table.

There you go.

I did my part
before I finally upgraded my home office,

so we touched on it here.

But let's continue that conversation.

How has cabinet placement
throughout the home really evolved

over the years and has Master
Brand had to evolve

your focus, sort of shift
your focus to match that along the way?

Absolutely.

I mean,
as part of being a solution provider

for the home,
we have to stay really closely in tune

and in touch with consumers
and their needs.

And so one of the biggest factors
that drives

innovation and product development,
aside from being in touch with our trade

professionals, is really understanding
shifts for the consumer

and where they're putting prioritization
for solutions for their home.

So lots of things continue to evolve.

Some of the most recent shifts,
I would say,

revolve around the evolution
of the kitchen island.

Again,
you can look at the last decade of data

and really see how that has changed from
do you need an island?

Do you not need an island
to how big of an island to

what are the different types of solutions

that people are needing their island
to provide for them?

It's funny how you said you you upgraded
from your card table to your dining table,

but a lot of people upgraded from,

you know, a temporary solution
to their kitchen island.

I'm often on calls with people like,
I'm just working for my kitchen island.

And that's just,

you know, it's an adaptable space
that has to provide multiple functions.

And in our survey
just this last year, 82% of designers

were telling us that they agree
or somewhat agree that the kitchen island

has replaced the majority

of dining solutions within the home,
or at least formal dining solutions.

So that's a huge functional evolution
that you absolutely have to provide

product solutions
in order to overcome those challenges.

82% that that's a little high.

So, wow. You know,
but it's not unexpected.

I mean, one of the areas
where we get a lot of insights into how

our industry could potentially be evolving
is furniture market.

And it hasn't been that long ago.

I won't say exactly how long,
but it hasn't been that long ago

that I was walking furniture
market and was introduced

as a cabinet manufacturer,
just chatting up some other

design professionals
and they jokingly said,

I guess you guys are the reason
that we selling less dining solutions.

So it's not unique to our industry
to have this knowledge.

I think even furniture manufacturers
feel this shift in this change.

Okay, then.

So infamous famous going to be probably
around forever white shaker cabinets.

They're still out there.

But what has made them so popular, I mean,
and even if it's the popularity

per say is waning a little bit.

But what just cause
those to be the timeless look?

I mean, most designers you talk to are
would hope that exactly what you said

doesn't happen.

Like we do not want white Shaker
to continue forever.

Certainly it came about after
after the Great Recession

when when home values were top of mind
for most homeowners

and the need for something
that was neutral and resale able

to the mass market created
a lot of appeal for those solutions.

It also was an esthetic choice
or a design evolution that just naturally

was going to occur in our industry,
where people were looking for

more of a blank canvas

in order to build their design esthetic
on top of that canvas.

And it certainly started out that way.

It was very trendy early on to create
sort of that neutral, blank esthetic

and then build your design influence
on top of that.

So essentially that white canvas,
so to speak.

But what happens
when you overplay a design trend,

which naturally is what we've seen
with White Sugar, because it's

been over a decade
that it has remained popular, is that not

everybody was using it
to its original intent and it becomes

oversaturated and eventually
it just looks sterile and bland.

And so a lot of times when people
look at it today now don't get me wrong,

white sugar is classic.

It's never going to go out of style.

There's always going to be people

who are using it to create
beautiful design solutions.

But there's also a lot of people who are
just using it as essentially just creating

a blank canvas with no personality
and no real design influence.

And that's what I think you're starting
to see what really wane in popularity.

And that is also giving way
to a lot of different solutions.

So personality

and personal influence in design
solutions is really starting to shift.

And minimalism and contemporary esthetic.

That real, streamlined, clean, sterile
look is starting to become way

less popular, which is great news,
but I don't think we're going to be,

at least not for a while, in a state
where we say, white Shaker is so out,

I would love to be able to.

I can't wait till the day or like the
headlines read that white shaker is out.

But it's it's become
a tool in designers toolbox

that when when it fits the right need
it is the right thing to do.

But I think what's really nice
is that we're starting to see that

it isn't necessarily
the only or the go to solution.

The palette has really broadened into off
whites or even tropes and beiges

to help create that
same example of a neutral esthetic.

But people are exploring
alternatives to the shaker.

There's the thin line shaker,

the skinny rail shaker,
the one with the really narrow exterior.

There's also different door styles
that have a really clean esthetic,

but offer you a little bit of beating
or detailing on the inside of the rail.

Those things go a really long way
to creating additional personality

within the space without being overly
sterile or overly clean.

No, All I could think of
as you were talking about it with the

hope that it happens someday,
but with all designers, I gather in Times

Square, just like New Year's Eve,
it does offer one

big celebration as the shaker door drops
instead of the ball.

I can't even tell you how many times
I've talked to designers

and they've said if I have to design
one more white sheet for kitchen

and then I can almost assure you
the next customer in the door

wanted a white shaker.

I say, Yeah,
they set that one up beautifully.

It's it's it's tough, but there is
a horizon that has some hope on it.

Okay.

Well, now I'm worried
that we might be repeating ourselves,

but I'll ask my question anyway,
because it was next on the list.

But just because of what you said,
when you get beyond beyond white

or even wood stained cabinets,
are there any specific colors

that are gaining momentum out there?

And how bold are people
maybe going with that?

Absolutely.

So we definitely asked this question
of our designers

this past year
and what they came back and told us

is that 31% of designers would agree
that Green is absolutely having a moment.

In 2024, 18% of designers
still think it's blue.

So those are the top three
would dramatically dropped off after that.

And it really went into like beige and off
white.

Black and even gray is still kind of
at the bottom of that list.

Again, Gray is certainly not
the predominant color anymore, but

it's never going to truly go fully away
because when you need that color,

you need that color.

And it's a pretty well
a staple in the toolbox now as well.

But knowing that both designers
and consumers are more open and welcoming

to other colors, you know, blue really hit
the scene hard in 2017.

I know that seems like forever ago,
but it has been around and popular

for that long.

But it's evolved over that time.

And I would say there's at least six blues

that are wildly popular
at this point in time or a range, right?

Sometimes color can be very personal
and people will choose nuances

of those colors.

But it's it's roughly evolved into,
you know, there's

a palette of six that you see
continuously over and over again.

Green is early days.

Green is really two colors
that you see over and over again.

But every trend insight we have points
to the fact that Green has the potential

to evolve very similarly to blue
and that we could end up with,

you know, 4 to 6 greens
really sitting solidly in that palette.

I'm old enough that I can remember a day
when everybody had a green,

a blue, a red, a yellow,
like you needed something.

And every one of those ranges,
but one was good enough and consumers

lucky charms of of cabinets
exactly every color

and it was pretty consistent
in the industry as well.

I mean there is a little bit of nuance
but it was a mid tone green

It was a dark blue.

But what's interesting about today's
consumer is that they're not

they're not satisfied with the limitation
of those types of choices,

and they really need a broader
breadth of choice

in order to get to
those personalized solutions.

So color is
is going to continue to evolve.

And it's really it's one of the most
exciting areas of the kitchen

and bath industry is
is really seeing that evolution take place

and and trying to create
the right solutions for consumers.

So now I'm
not going to let you off the hook

because I'm only ask two questions here.

One, okay, don't leave me hanging here.

You said there were two tones
really of green that that

are kind of the popular ones right now.

So what are those? And second is

whether it's green, whether it's blue,

do you find those more confined
to the kitchen or the bathroom,

or are you finding those
throughout the home as well?

You're definitely finding them
throughout the home.

I'll answer your first
your second question first.

You're fine with course
getting keep your hang it.

Just look,
I mean, if I can create suspense for your

for your podcast, you certainly will try.

Thank you.

So you definitely see color utilized
in a lot of different areas of the home.

It's it's definitely easier
I think, for most homeowners to make a

color selection outside of the kitchen
because it tends to be a smaller impact

and therefore it feels like
it's it's easier to change over time.

Most people are not going to want
to renovate their kitchen

more than once in their lifetime
unless they're moving to a different home.

They tend to be more conservative
when they choose color for the kitchen.

But what we're seeing historically is
that islands

are one of the best
and easiest ways to integrate color.

Again,
because it's in a contained smaller area.

And so it feels like if you ever did
get tired of your selection

that you would be easier.
It would be easy to update it.

So certainly things like bathrooms
and laundry rooms

where you have fewer cabinets
utilize it feels

whether it is or isn't, it feels easier
to personalize those spaces

and then take on the

challenge of updating later if you decide
that you want something different.

But I'll tell you what's interesting is,
is that it's still our even

our data tells us
that still people find it easiest

to integrate color in the kitchen via
the island.

We're seeing quite a bit of momentum
and growth of people

integrating color in the perimeter
of their kitchen now as well.

Maybe not uppers and lowers,
but potentially just

the lowers to get more impactful color
utilization.

And I think a lot of the inspiration

that consumers
find these days is showing that as well.

So it really is taking huge steps and
building consumer confidence around color.

When designers describe the Greens to us,
it is

kind of a it's
generally described as a sage green.

Now there's still interpretation
as to what Sage Green is,

but I would say it's a mid tone
and I like to call these chameleon colors

because ultimately it needs
to have some brown or gray undertone

so that they become very flexible
and they sort of can work

with a lot of different other colors,
whether you're looking

at other opaque neutrals
like whites and off whites and beiges

or whether you're integrating
those tones with would stay.

And so again,
the neutrality of the opaque is important.

And oftentimes you get there by kind of
dirtying up the boldness of the color.

So it becomes very flexible
to work with a lot of different colors.

So sage certainly does provide you
with that sort of solution.

Alternatively,
we still see a lot of dark greens,

so there's certainly a movement
towards Moody.

There's a lot of different ways that
people are describing this, this esthetic.

It's not new.

It's been peeking
its head out for a while.

There's a lot more influencers
who are showing different ways

to create a darker, moodier esthetic

in your home, and it's still not feel
sort of enclosed or removing that open

airiness that people really appreciate
from the lighter finishes.

There is a way to achieve that particular.

If you have a lot of

natural light in your space
and still utilize a lot of dark tones.

So those dark greens definitely provide
really good solutions there.

Ultimately,
I think we'll see light greens.

We do hear some conversation and see

some influence of a lighter,
not quite a pastel,

but a lighter green, maybe with a
little more yellow or olive undertone.

So I would say that's

kind of on the horizon for where
greens are going to evolve next.

So if we break out of the color aspect.

SE But what has made wood cabinets
so timeless in their approach,

we talked a little bit about Shaker
that's maybe timeless for now,

but Wood Cabinets have just been timeless.

Yeah, and I think it's the nature of the
kitchen and the relationship of a kitchen.

In a home, you tend to need neutrality
in your kitchen cabinets to some degree

because it's such a large grounding visual
in your overall home esthetic.

So naturally,
you know, whites and off whites

and beiges
provide you with that solution.

But wood tones do as well.

And what's interesting about the evolution
of wood tone and as we're starting

to see stains
kind of come back and grow in popularity,

the way I like to describe them
is, is if you think about the forest floor

and you can think about the forest floor
in any season, but

if you're walking through nature
and you look at the forest floor,

you're going to get a little bit
of gold influence, but you're going to get

a lot of sort of those nuttier browns,
those more neutral brown bases.

You're going to see a lot of gray
or gray influence.

You're going to see some like think
overall bark or those natural elements.

I mean, it truly is.

It sounds cliche to continuously talk

about how nature influences
our color choices, but

those natural elements, there's a reason
that we are all drawn to them

and their esthetic is so calming because
of colors mix really well together.

So if you think about this evolution
of browns

as they come back there
on the mid to light range,

we've certainly been through

the phase of gray stains, though
even those gray stains have evolved

into gray brown stains, which make them
kind of khaki or more neutral.

And so it just plays into that
need for that kitchen palette

to be something that is grounding that
a lot of other colors can play off.

Cabinet is cabinets are one solution
that homeowners have to think about

when they're creating a new space
or remodel or an existing space.

There's other big contenders there, right?

The flooring,
the countertops, your wall color.

So all of these things have to play
well together.

And so creating neutrality on cabinets
and flooring

is probably a higher priority than is on
things that could change out a lot faster.

Like what color or countertop

so. I think that's a big reason

why we're starting
to see some of this evolution

and why people believe
that wood stains are so classic

because they just complement other primary
finishes within the home space,

whether it's the kitchen
or any other room for that matter.

How might the door style impact
the design there?

You know,

there's a lot of opinions there around
how much impact the door style has.

Certainly in the past, we've seen trends
where we have a lot of differentiation

and or styles,
a lot of personal decision around

how that esthetic can influence
your overall design impression of a space.

A lot of that historical insight around
how people utilize different door styles

has been gone for so long that
I don't even know that it's that relevant

to talk about anymore
because as we're starting to see

fingers crossed move out of the era of
just the shaker door, as I alluded

to, your early set up again,
I know if you put it out in the universe

enough, eventually it's going to latch on
and you're going to see a shift.

So I'm just doing my part.

But the evolution of door style
preference is still something clean.

Generally speaking, it's a clean esthetic,
but I think the key is that it doesn't

drive a single style influence.

It really has to be flexible that
you could adopt multiple style influences.

And what I mean by

that is the thing about Shaker is
you could dress that traditionally,

you could dress that rustic,
you could dress that modern.

It can create balance

when you're trying to create
or drive a specific style esthetic.

Most of the evolution of what
we're seeing and other door profiles

have similar appeal.

They're neutral enough
that they do create

a little bit of enhanced detail
or definition, but they're not so style

specific or so style driven
that you still don't have the ability

to dress them up, dress them down,
dress them sideways, depending on where

you want to drive your overall design
impression when the space is completed.

So it's sort of the evolution
of the shaker

and it's such a it's
such a unique thing to watch because

now because Shaker has become
so substantial, I often hear people

describe just about any other door style
that's gaining in popularity

right now as a version of Shaker,
when really they're not.

Shaker is a specific type of style
and construction, and the evolution of

that is really creating new styles of door
profiles that we've never seen before.

But they all have a similar feel,

and I think that's why people easily
classify them as versions of Shaker,

because they all have the same intent,
all of the intent of some small impression

of design enhancement,
but not an overall influence

for the for the total package,
meaning you've got that flexibility still.

Okay, look in your crystal ball
or just to the paperwork

that you have in front of you.

But what can we expect from spring

and not just in 2024,
but maybe even a little bit beyond that?

Is there any sort of unveils
that you can sort of tease for us here?

Sure, of course. I mean, that's
what we're doing today, right?

We're just teasing with different things.

I like the enticement here.

I think the first one is really
about innovation around technology.

You know, I've kind of mentioned it
a little bit already, but

products are just a part of the value
proposition of what we bring to market

for our customers, consumers alike,
and continuously looking at

how we can improve the service package
with technology about making it easy for

both our customers and the

end user to do business with us
quite easily and efficiently.

And a lot of this is driven by changing
or evolving consumer expectations, right?

Anybody who's done a remodel project
or a new construction project knows

that it's very labor intensive
as far as project management side,

you know, knowing when your products
are going to arrive, planning the whole

front end of the process
before you even order your products.

These are not challenges
unique to kitchen and bath.

These are challenges unique
to any kind of home renovation project.

So certainly continuing
to innovate on solutions

that enable us to be a stronger partner
to both our customers

and to the ultimate consumer
of our goods.

So more to come on where we evolve that.

We certainly have a strategy
where we will have some close in unveiling

of new technology, but it's an ongoing
initiative for our organization.

So many years to come we will be unveiled
ring and highlighting new ways

to do business that make it easier
and more efficient for everyone.

So that's the first one.

And the second one
that I would say really around color.

And you heard me
talk about this a little bit earlier

because I'm very excited about this.

I think it's been a long time coming for,
you know, the creative component

of of our solutions to continue

to offer something different
than just the white shaker.

And this doorway has now been opened
to bring color back into our space.

And that doesn't just mean paint colors
or optics.

It's the whole evolution
of where it stands going to go.

And, you know, we've had to take a break
from that for a couple of years,

you know, coming out of the pandemic.

But we're really full speed ahead
focusing on that again.

And as there are
some very exciting things on the horizon.

So I can't wait to we start bringing
those things to the market.

and as I

always say to my best friend, feel free
to test those colors and new styles

in my kitchen when you remodel,
you know, just, just spitballing ideas.

They're offering it up.

So there's never any shortage
of those kinds of volunteers.

So darn it to do well.

Stephanie, so much appreciate

you taking the time to join us today
and share your insights with us.

It sounds great

and we look forward to seeing it
and including perhaps the celebration

of the demise of the shaker cabinets
somewhere in the future.

And fingers crossed. Right.

Stephanie, thank you so much.

Yeah, thank you, Sue.

Thank you for joining us on the Sauce
podcast.

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