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A podcast that helps you understand the fascinating chemistry hidden in your everyday life.
Have you ever wondered why onions make you cry? Or how soap gets your hands clean? What really is margarine, or why do trees change colors in the fall? Melissa is a chemist, and to answer these questions she started a podcast, called Chemistry for your life!
In each episode Melissa explains the chemistry behind one of life’s mysteries to Jam, who is definitely not a chemist, but she explains it in a way that is easy to understand, and totally fascinating.
If you’re someone who loves learning new things, or who wonders about the way the world works, then give us a listen.
Hey.
Melissa:Hey. I'm Melissa.
Jam:I'm Jam.
Melissa:And I'm a chemist.
Jam:And I'm not.
Melissa:And welcome to chemistry for your life.
Jam:The podcast helps you understand the chemistry of your everyday life.
Melissa:I almost had bonus edition, but it's a regular edition.
Jam:Just an just an edition.
Melissa:Just an edition. Jam and I have not been together recording in 3 weeks
Jam:That's right.
Melissa:Because he was out of town with his fam.
Jam:And it was I wasn't out of town that long, but the way we record made it where we couldn't Do it the week I got back. So
Melissa:It was the timing. Yeah. Yep. So but here we are.
Jam:Yep.
Melissa:And before we on this episode that I haven't told Jim the topic yet, and I can't wait to tell him. It's been hard. I've almost told him several times. I wanna shout out Nelly s, one of our new Patreon supporters. Yes.
Melissa:She actually joined last month and came to our coffee hour that we do with our h Fondertier. And so I got to meet her, and she was really fun to talk to. And so she's our new Patreon, so shout out To her, this episode is dedicated to you, Nelly.
Jam:And if you are someone who's thought about it a couple of times but just hasn't really gone exploring it, Go check out our Patreon atpatreon.com/kem for your life. And if you become a patron, we got a few different tiers, but there's cool things like our coffee hour, and, we even have, like, a merch discount code. Mhmm. We have we share cool updates on there in spite that. We'd love to have you if you want to.
Melissa:If you want. You have to. But just if you want. If you wanna make chemistry accessible to even more people, that's what we say.
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:Okay. So are you ready? Maybe I've built it up too much. This, this episode is gonna be lame.
Jam:I think I'm ready, but I like to I like to sort of save prizes. Could you tell me what the topic is
Melissa:after we've finished recording? Okay. Well, actually, when you walked into your house, your son said this out loud, and I was like, We're gonna talk about popcorn. Oh, nice. Popcorn and why how does popcorn pop and all that stuff.
Jam:Who messaged us about this the other day?
Melissa:Someone message us about it?
Jam:Yes.
Melissa:Oh, no. I didn't see it. Was it in an email or on Instagram?
Jam:Well, great question.
Melissa:I know. Okay. Well, if that was you, I didn't see it. And, actually, I took my inspiration from A little kid friend of ours who oh, was it, like, a person in our in our real life maybe?
Jam:I think so. I just I'm just not positive. You start talking, and I'll if I figure it out live, then I will tell us.
Melissa:Okay. Okay. So, a little kid friend of ours who has since moved out of the country, so you probably know who she is, Jam.
Jam:Yes. I do.
Melissa:She was talking to her mom, and her mom she said she wanted to grow a popcorn plant, and her mom was trying to explain, you know, that popcorn comes from colonels. Did you figure it out?
Jam:I figured it out.
Melissa:Who is it?
Jam:It's our friend, Joey Hatfield.
Melissa:Joey, what is this question? Can you read it?
Jam:I'll read it. This This is from Joey Hatfield, my former roommate, current friend, friend of the show, and, he drew the chem heads, thing and yeah. A few other things. He's he's great.
Melissa:And he's also Maple's dad, that dog that we talk about.
Jam:Yes. What is happening when a popcorn kernel is heated up? Is the heat just causing the internal structure to expand, or is the heat causing chemical changes that make or combine something to make the the the foamy, popcorn y stuff.
Melissa:Oh my gosh. I can't believe I didn't find that.
Jam:I think it stuck out to me, like, Because I saw an email from Joey, and then I was like, oh, this is this is to our chemistry for your life inbox. Yeah. I kinda thought it was, like, an email to me about something. Who knows what? And then I was like, oh, oh, and it's pop it's a it's a good question.
Jam:Popcorn. Cool. But I just marked it as unread so you'd see it, That we were behind.
Melissa:The number of times that has happened makes me think that it must be in my subconscious that someone asked it, and then I'm like, that is a good question. You know? Yeah. But I was thinking about, Okay. So our our small friend, a little kid friend, I think she's maybe, like, 3 now, maybe 2 at the time of this question.
Melissa:Uh-huh. She, asked her mom if she could grow a popcorn plant, and her mom was trying to explain, you know, the, like, the popcorn kernels come from corn. And then she's like, Wait. Like, where is are popcorn cartilage just regular corn? Like, what's up with that?
Melissa:Uh-huh. And so then she messaged me about that, and That was kind of my inspiration. Felt like the perfect episode because we've been on kind of a food trend, butter. You know? I'm like, popcorn just Fits right in.
Jam:Totally.
Melissa:And it's summer, and it's really gotten to be summer here.
Jam:Oh, yeah. Very much so.
Melissa:So just the other day, my husband and I were like, movie night, popcorn. Like, And recently, you went to the movie theater?
Jam:Yep.
Melissa:So I I just felt like it's time for popcorn.
Jam:Yeah. Melissa keeps tabs on me, by the way, just to make sure I'm okay.
Melissa:That's why she knew it. Not True. Like, I keep tabs on your kids while you're at the movie. That's right.
Jam:Yeah. That's a great idea. I love this question. And, also, I have a video that I so we make popcorn in a pot, you know, on the stove, which you've experienced many times and you also do. Mhmm.
Jam:Did
Melissa:I learn that from y'all?
Jam:This is
Melissa:I know you sound.
Jam:This is one of my favorite, Paradoxes. It's like a bootstrap paradox sort of if you know what that is. So my wife is convinced that Melissa taught her how to make popcorn on the stove. Melissa is multiple times said that exactly what she just said a second ago where she's pretty sure that my wife taught her. They are both pretty sure the other one taught them, and neither think that they're the one that already knew it.
Jam:And that's not possible.
Melissa:It could've been you know what? I could've learned it from, like, when I was in college, or, like, I did an internship with our ministry, and our friend Autumn Autumn Priestley.
Jam:Uh-huh.
Melissa:She could have.
Jam:Yep.
Melissa:She could have taught me. That sort of sounds familiar, but, honestly, I don't know.
Jam:Yeah. Who knows?
Melissa:Could've I feel like that it seems like something I would've learned from y'all, but maybe I did teach you, and and that's why I associate it with you. That is hilarious that I did it when you're about to explain what I did.
Jam:And I told somebody that exact story, like, 2 weeks ago.
Melissa:Oh, really?
Jam:Yeah. I was like, this is one of my favorite, You know, a little paradox is like, somebody had to be the originator of this information, and yet neither of y'all know. But what I'm like what I start saying is I have Tried to get, like, good slow mo videos through the glass of the lid Nice. Watching the popcorn pop. And soon as I'd be able to do it, Pretty good.
Jam:I also look back and see if any of them are, like, good enough to share, but it is fascinating. But it still doesn't really tell you what's happening. No. It just it you seeing it slower does help it make a little bit more sense Mhmm. But not at the molecular level.
Melissa:Yeah. No. Not on molecular level. So I had no no guesses, honestly, about what happened until I started to research it. I will say we've moved to They have this, like, silicone bowl Uh-huh.
Melissa:That you has, like, a little lid, and you just put a little oil with the kernels in there, and then you could do it in the microwave.
Jam:I've heard about this. You told me about that.
Melissa:I like it, but if you just don't want 1 more thing in your kit, it collapses down. You know?
Jam:Nice.
Melissa:If you just don't want 1 more thing in your kitchen, you could just do it on the stove. Yeah. Right. It's less likely to burn, I feel like, in that.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:Like, I'm not less likely to forget about it.
Jam:Right. Right. Right.
Melissa:So that's what we do. So but we're We're pretty much popcorn purists in this in this podcast. We don't buy the microwave pre seasoned bags anymore.
Jam:Yeah. We still have sometimes, but because probably because of kettle corn being easier to
Melissa:Kettle corn.
Jam:Make that way.
Melissa:I don't make kettle corn, so that makes sense.
Jam:That's what Em really likes. Anyway
Melissa:Anyway.
Jam:I'm super into this, and I can't wait to find out. Yeah.
Melissa:Yeah. I'm so happy. It just felt like a happy episode, a summery episode, So light makes popcorns light.
Jam:Yeah. Summer blockbusters. Yeah. You know, that's what we usually kind of associate with, like, the big movies coming
Melissa:And Jim and I did a soda run before the episode, so I was like, that just feels like summer.
Jam:Yeah. It does feel like summer. It does.
Melissa:Okay. So here we go. This is one of those episodes where we're gonna apply actually a lot of chemistry lessons you've already learned.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:So I don't think You'll learn any new chemistry today? I don't think you will. I think maybe some of our listeners who are just hopping in, this might be Okay. One of their 1st episodes maybe. They'll definitely learn new chemistry.
Melissa:I think we can do quick summaries, but I'll also reference back to some of the first episodes we talked these concepts in if people wanna go back and listen.
Jam:Okay. Cool.
Melissa:So we're gonna talk about, you know, how do all corns pop? Why does popcorn pop at all? What's the white Stuff in popcorn. And I know you're surprised, but it's a lot of chemistry.
Jam:And you're sure?
Melissa:I'm sure.
Jam:And It's weird when there's, like, that 1 in a millionth time that it's actually chemistry. You know? Most of it is not. But
Melissa:Okay. So I feel like the easiest way to start and I'm gonna kind of give you, like, a Quick overview, and then we'll dive deeper into the molecular level.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:But an easy way to start is to imagine a popcorn kernel, And then imagine zooming into the popcorn kernel so you can see inside it. And what's inside the popcorn kernel is ultimately a seed. And like a lot of other seeds, they come with the nutrients they need to keep the plant alive until it's able to get nutrients from its surroundings. So there's, like, you know, a little plant, a baby plant in there surrounded by all the starch, That would feed the plant until it could get nutrients from its surrounding, and starch is essentially a polymer Made mostly of sugar that feeds the plant.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:It's a easy way to think of it. And then there's also Water and then maybe some air and empty space. Okay. So that's a quick overview.
Jam:K.
Melissa:And it's all encapsulated in a strong outer layer of cellulose.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:Okay. So It's a nice, you know, enclosed thing that has starch. That's the these are the big players. Starch, A little bit of empty space and a little bit of water in there Okay. Closed into a cellulose container.
Melissa:So just Based off of that knowledge and what you already know about chemistry, do you have any guesses about what happens when you heat that up?
Jam:Well, when you heat a closed container, it's a bomb.
Melissa:That's right.
Jam:And so you've got a closed up thing. And if you're gonna put energy into something in it, the molecules start getting excited. It's heating up. They're wanting to move around a lot Mhmm. And spread out.
Jam:If they can't, they will just continue to try, And pressure will increase inside until it can or until until it can burst open or until The whatever's trying whatever's increasing the energy stops doing that, and it can go back down.
Melissa:Yeah. Perfect. Yes. So that idea is called it's pro it's like Thermal expansion, but also as you increase temperature, you increase pressure.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:One of the first episodes we talked about thermal expansion is, We recently did a rerelease of it, but on our episode about, sea levels rising. Mhmm. So, essentially, when you put energy into molecules, those of you who haven't listened to that episode yet, they move around more and get more and more energy. And if it's liquid, They might even have enough energy to turn into the gas form of that molecule, and they have so much pressure on them, so much pressure on them, so much pressure on them that eventually the thing holding them wants to burst open because they're moving around, putting a lot of pressure. It's like if you're holding a kid that's wiggling around a lot, at some point, you're gonna just give up and let the kid free.
Melissa:You
Jam:know? Right. Right.
Melissa:The other day, I was doing tickle jail with your son. Uh-huh. And he would be all thrashing around, and I'm like, this is kind of a dangerous game for me and my glasses. Yeah. So it's kind of a dangerous game for popcorn too.
Melissa:You're putting energy into it, and things are moving around moving around, and so it's pushing out. And eventually, the things on the inside are able to get out.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:But we're kinda so that's a good overview. But we're kind of missing that also As we're heating up the popcorn, something's happening to the starch too.
Jam:Is the starch inside is it a solid? Mhmm. Okay.
Melissa:It's a solid. And as it heats up, it doesn't really lose its Structure, I guess Joey asked, is there a chemical change?
Jam:Mhmm. But I
Melissa:think a better way to think of it is a physical change where It just sort of gets melty. I've heard I try to look more into exactly what was happening on the molecular level to the starch, But the best thing I could find in peer reviewed journals was either that it would get molten or gelatinous. Okay. So normally, if you squish a A kernel, it's hard. You can't it doesn't give a lot.
Melissa:Mhmm. But as you heat it up and the water vapor inside the Colonel is turning into gastric molecules, and it's getting warmer and warmer and warmer in there. The starch becomes Some one of the scientists like likened it to, like, a a ball of dough.
Jam:It's
Melissa:like, it still has structure. It's still 1 unit, but it's and movable.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:So we're reaching a critical temperature where the water vapor the water has turned into gas. It's moving around a lot. It's putting pressure on the cellulose situation. Mhmm. And there's Molten starch happening.
Melissa:And eventually, your kernel will start to crack, and then pressure's Gonna try to find a way to release through that crack. And as the air is rushing out, also the starch will come with it, and so the starch is Coming out also in that same moment, it's you know, the air is rushing out with it, which is why it gets kind of aerated, and the volume goes up. But as soon as it's free from that tiny pressure cooker, then it cools down because the pressure is part of what's keeping that temperature hot. Sort of like if you have a lid on a pot versus when you take the lid off.
Jam:Right.
Melissa:So it cools down almost immediately enough to become solid Foamy starch that we know as pop.
Jam:Got it. And I guess it kinda makes sense. I wanna think about, like, pouring coffee, for instance. Like, you I, like, Have my coffee at, like, almost boiling the water almost boiling and brewing it.
Melissa:Mhmm.
Jam:But then just by pouring it, it's already cooling down just a lot. Yes. Just by being exposed to the air and not being in a closed container anymore. Mhmm. And and then so it it's like Pressure obviously is not part of that situation quite as much, but, the temperature as soon as pressure is released.
Melissa:Yes.
Jam:Being able to, like, get to a state where it's not this molten whatever anymore, kinda makes sense, but it is crazy how fast that happens.
Melissa:I know. It's. And that was one of the people who studied the popcorn slowed everything down. And I have some fun facts from his research, that I'll give you at the end, but he slowed everything down and it and looked at every stage and actually found that The popping doesn't come from the kernel breaking, which you'd think because, like, in coffee, basically, the same thing happens
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:Where it heats up and it cracks open, but you don't have that Starch in the middle? Right. And you hear the crack Yep. Usually.
Jam:Yep.
Melissa:So you don't really hear the crack in the popcorn kernel. They would they, like, were able to slow it down into the I don't know if it was, like, milliseconds or what. I can't remember now at the top of my head. But they saw the crack And the starch start to come out, and then the heard the pop after the crack had already happened. So the pop is the air getting out.
Melissa:It's not The kernel breaking. Ah. Isn't that cool?
Jam:Yeah. It's crazy.
Melissa:And you'd have to slow down so much to know that.
Jam:It's also funny because, like, they when people talk about in sort of the home coffee roasting space, they talk about popcorn a lot as, like, you listen for the crack, just like with popcorn, hearing popcorn pop. It's not exactly the same sound. It's a little different, but They use that as an example of, like, listen for this happening Yeah. Or whatever, but pretty different.
Melissa:It's a yeah. It's I could see that analogy, but, technically, if you could slow it way, way, way, way down, the pop isn't from the Outer shell breaking is from something else.
Jam:Interesting.
Melissa:Isn't that weird?
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:I'm gonna give you a little, teaser for your fun fact at the end Okay. Also from that person's research, you know how sometimes when popcorn pops, it jumps? Yes. And you'd think that would be from the air all coming out? Uh-huh.
Melissa:That's not really what happens. Okay. Okay. So just I'm just gonna leave that for you.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:Okay. So let me sorry. That was a little bit of a tangent, so let me get back here to where we were.
Jam:K.
Melissa:So we essentially talked about how The water vapor inside this closed container heats up, heats up, heats up. And while it's heart happening, the starch starts to melt and get this molten gelatinous thing
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:That I couldn't find as much satisfying research as I wanted. And there's sort of a critical point where the popcorn can't handle the cellulose outside of the popcorn can't handle all that pressure anymore, and so It cracks open. The starch spills out. As it's spilling out, air is coming out with it, and it cools back down. And, oh, I did think of a good analogy for why It sort of expands out, the starch does
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:And is able to take in, like it seems like it gets air bubbles in it, you know, to make it a little bit more Foamy and not that hard compact that it is inside.
Jam:Right.
Melissa:And I thought of the elephant's toothpaste experiment and and the Mentos and Diet Coke experiment. Yeah. In both of those cases, bubbles are being generated, and as they're leaving, as the air is rushing out, so is the stuff that is sort of capturing the bubbles.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:So it's not just like, oh, bubbles are rushing out. It's like bubbles are rushing out, and they're bringing Diet Coke with them. Yeah. And they're bringing, you know, everything else with out with them. So I feel like if that's a similar thing that you can imagine is like Okay.
Melissa:The air is rushing out, but it's bringing this melted starch out with it and just so happens. Then when the melted starch gets out, it, like, freezes in its bubbly state. Know what I mean?
Jam:That's crazy. Yeah. It's also, like, it still keeps me so crazy to me that I'm, like when you said that, How is it foamy and not so hard and compacted? I'm like, oh, right. It was fitting in that tiny little space, and it was really hard.
Melissa:Mhmm.
Jam:And now it's way takes away more volume. Mhmm. So, of course, there's something that has changed. Of course, a lot of air has been able to integrate itself into there.
Melissa:Yeah.
Jam:Because otherwise, how would it be taking up way more space now? Yeah. But still be solid again. Right? So it's like
Melissa:because it's it's not as solid. I can't feel like as it was before. It's, like, squishy. And you can squish it down into a more compact state. So it's like, oh, yeah.
Melissa:There must be air in it.
Jam:Right.
Melissa:Just like whipped cream too also. You know? We're, like, trapping air in this structure.
Jam:Yeah. So
Melissa:that was helpful for me to visualize. That is speculation. I just really wanna clarify. That is, like, from an informed chemistry point of view, How I speculate that it fluffs up, I could not find it seems like people are focusing more on the mechanics of the pop and less on the From what I could find in the chemistry sphere, less on the starch and how it's expanding, but that was my interpretation. It was even hard to confirm what molten ver versus gelatinous was.
Melissa:So, I just wanna clarify that. I I like to give you good factual information. And whenever I speculate, even though it's speculation from the mind of a chemist, it's important still to qualify that.
Jam:Right. Right.
Melissa:So that's your 1st chemistry lesson in a new application. It is really thermal expansion and then sort of the air bubbles being trapped in the matrix kind of.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:So a good episode to listen to is 1 I already said, the climate, the sea level rise episode, But also the tire episode would be a good one.
Jam:Right. Right.
Melissa:That was one where jam blew my socks off and guessed the whole episode, and I didn't even have to teach him. So
Jam:What if it was like, not only that, but, like, somehow I taught you something you didn't know? I was like, you bring the topic. I'm like, Actually
Melissa:I mean, you do that a lot with the coffee and stuff.
Jam:That's true.
Melissa:And film. I feel like there's a lot of times you teach me, but there's not chemistry.
Jam:Yeah. I mean, yeah. It'd be funny if somehow went that way. We're like yeah. And this James surprised me because he knew something about chemistry I didn't know and explained it to me or whatever.
Jam:So especially something that simple about, like, the tires. Anyway, yeah, those are all yeah. That makes sense. Those are all, like, related to this Mhmm. In different ways.
Melissa:Okay. So Now let's talk about what makes popcorn special because no. All corn does not pop. Only popcorn pops, and it's because it has that strong cellulose layer. Other other corns, I guess, don't have as of a layer there.
Melissa:And they also might not have the right ratio of water and starch. You have to have, like, exactly 13.5 to 14% water Inside your kernel.
Jam:But a specific, like, species of corn?
Melissa:It from what I gathered is a variety of popcorn species.
Jam:K.
Melissa:But, yes, it's a it's a type of corn that has all of the necessary ingredients to be popped, Essentially.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:Okay. So and, oh, that Cellulose layer is called a Pericarp, which sounds like a Pokemon to me.
Jam:Yeah. It is. What what is the Pokemon it sounds like?
Melissa:Magicarp.
Jam:Oh, yeah. Okay.
Melissa:And kinda like Poliwhirl or something, like Pericarp Pericarp. Yeah. I feel like like a sap?
Jam:I haven't played Pokemon, but as soon as you said that, it sounds like a Pokemon's like, yeah, it totally does. I don't know why. Yeah. It Does. But yeah.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:Sounds like that. So I just called it the cellulose layer.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:So that's what surround that surrounding shell is mostly made up of cellulose. And Cellulose, you've probably heard of before. Do you remember where you've heard it in school? I'm, like, pretty confident you have.
Jam:Cellulose.
Melissa:Is it okay if you can't
Jam:I mean, yeah, I feel like I've heard it a ton. Why can't I think of exactly the
Melissa:The Maybe plants?
Jam:Description. Yeah. Definitely only with plants that I can think of. Is it anything that that's part of making up the cell wall of plants?
Melissa:Yes. Okay. That's what it is. So cellulose is a common polymer, again, which a polymer is there's lots of polymers in nature. Everything's a is my joke, which isn't, like, really true, but it kinda feels like it sometimes on this show.
Jam:Yeah. I mean, it feels like every other episode, you're like, This is basically a polymer, and it's like, okay.
Melissa:So jam's beautiful definition of polymers is a Molecule that's made up of a bunch of small molecules, so it just kind of has repeating unit. So the analogy I'm gonna use for that today is Do you ever play that game like red rover red rover?
Jam:Yes. I did.
Melissa:And the kids would try to break through?
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:Okay. So the kids try to break through. That's a water molecule trying to get out.
Jam:K.
Melissa:And the cellulose layer is a bunch of repeating units that are all 1 long chain.
Jam:K.
Melissa:The kids holding hands. They're just repeating units, all one long chain. Okay? So we have this cellulose layer, And it seems like I mean, it doesn't seem like. A an X-ray crystallographer looked at the structure via X-ray of the cellulose, And what they found was it wasn't just 1 layer of the polymer.
Melissa:It would crystallize. And we've talked about crystal structures before, especially on the glass episode, where Some things that are in their solid state, sometimes it's kind of amorphous where there's not really a good internal structure.
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:And sometimes They line up really nicely, and even things that aren't gemstones can have a nice crystalline internal structure. Yeah. So glass doesn't have that and neither does Ibuprofen. But if you sometimes let your Ibuprofen get old, you can see it looks all sparkly
Jam:Right.
Melissa:Is because it's crystallizing.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:So it turns out that within the Shell, there's some crystal structure, and there's some amorphous areas. In the crystal structures, The way they described it, I really liked it. So I copied this for you, and then I'll give you an analogy. So this is a quote from the paper. It contains both crystalline and amorphous regions.
Melissa:The crystalline state adopts a sheet like structure in which The chains are packed in parallel modes.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:And those sheets are held together by a series of what? Can you think of what things would hold 2 molecules together?
Jam:What things like a thing or, like, a Force.
Melissa:A force. An intermolecular force? Yes. A specific kind. It's hydrogen bond.
Melissa:So the strongest intermolecular force. Got it. So that right There is another episode, another lesson that you've learned. So the episode about glass will teach you about the crystalline materials and snowflakes. I think we Talk about crystal and then clear too.
Melissa:Yes. And then hydrogen bonds, intermolecular forces, we talk about a lot Mhmm. All throughout, but I think probably the first one was soap. Right. How to soak clean your hands.
Melissa:So the way I thought of it was kind of like, If you were playing that Red Rover game and instead of just 1 row of kids that you had to break through, it's like, in another row, in another row, in another row, in another row, and all lined up
Jam:Uh-huh.
Melissa:To where nothing's gonna be able to get through. No kid is gonna be able to run through all those arms and break through all those layers because it's so crystalline and solid. And it would be an even another layer to represent the hydrogen bonds if you started to, like I don't know how you could do this, but, like, tie between the rows of kids. Uh-huh. I was like, would you have kids that, like, hold hands this way?
Melissa:Like, Parallel and, perpendicular. I don't know. This hard that's where the analogy kinda breakdown was the hydrogen bonds. But I like that visual because I feel like the water molecules are putting all this pressure and trying to escape, but the structure is so strong that you're not gonna be able to get through all of this lined up. Yeah.
Melissa:So that was how I pictured it in my mind. So what this person found was actually that the corn popcorn varieties that had a better pop rate had more crystalline structure. So if it was more crystalline structure, you'd be more likely to hold all the water that you need to hold in. There wouldn't those imperfections in the shell for it to escape out, and that would force the pop and the starch to come out, and you'd get a popped kernel.
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:But the ones with less perfection on or less crystalline, I guess. They were more likely to have imperfections, and you'd get a lower pop rate. So the range was, like, 47% pop or, like, over 90%
Jam:Interesting.
Melissa:I know. And so they talked about using that to possibly cross breed and get more varieties of have that stronger shell, but that's part of what explains why sometimes popcorn kernels don't pop.
Jam:Right.
Melissa:They they have imperfections on an Molecular level that allow the air the moisture to escape so it doesn't put the pressure. So
Jam:So it might not always be that you just didn't leave it long enough or the difficulty of not wanting to burn the rest of what you've Mhmm. Left, it could be that those kernels weren't gonna pop anyway.
Melissa:They might not have popped anyway.
Jam:Oh, well, I never even thought about that.
Melissa:I know.
Jam:Oh, I said, oh, this is all the potential that didn't get we didn't get out of this batch of popcorn
Melissa:Yeah.
Jam:Or whatever. And, like, this is just lost. You know?
Melissa:But it's possible that it was there's no escaping that.
Jam:Yeah. Interesting. I guess you really can't know That until you tried it. Until you've tried. Like, there'd be no point in impression that's gonna happen, But they're all every kernel is so cheap that it's like, just throw much in there, and it's gonna be if we can get to a high enough percentage, Enough.
Melissa:I will say they said the person who studied this said that they can, like, break teeth, mess up fillings. There's a few other things they were like. I I kinda I guess I thought they were just annoying. You know? Yeah.
Melissa:Like, they actually negatively impact dental health if you're eating popcorn and there aren't popcornels in
Jam:there. Yeah.
Melissa:So we want Since it's a healthy healthy ish, I guess, snack option that is very popular, we want the least amount of those possible so that it's not negatively impacting, Like, cracking teeth
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:Breaking fillings, or I think there's one other thing. So I was like, oh, oh, causing they can cause choking.
Jam:Mhmm. Yeah. That's why we don't Give our kids popcorn.
Melissa:Makes sense.
Jam:Has I don't know if there's, like, a a p thing, like American Academy of Pediatrics or or if he just has this as, like, a rule of thumb. But, she always tells our son he can't have it till he's 4. Really? Yeah. Like, once you're 4, then you can have to he'll ask for it and stuff when we're when we're
Melissa:dating it. Talk about it today. Mhmm. He knows about it. He wants it.
Jam:Yep. He knows. He doesn't know about it.
Melissa:That's funny. Okay. So, just, Okay. Yeah. That so that was your whole lesson.
Melissa:Sorry. I got off I got a on a tangent. Okay. So that was your whole lesson. So there's lots of different little lessons within it, so I feel like you can Approach it however you see fit.
Jam:K. But
Melissa:I was gonna give you a chance to give that explain that back to me, and then I have a lot of fun facts about the popcorn.
Jam:Okay. Awesome. So I did I guess I sort of explained the first part, The high level view or whatever because you
Melissa:Oh, yeah.
Jam:Quiz me to see if I could guess it or whatever.
Melissa:Oh, yeah. That's true.
Jam:So I guess some of the things since then Other than just the, like, exciting of the molecules, the starch, and the water, and the air that's in there already, that's that's went to expanding it out and create pressure to Bust out of the cellulose. I guess some of the stuff that you talked about since then is it has such a Strong layer because there's a bunch of layers and it's crystallized
Melissa:Mhmm.
Jam:Instead of being like other cell walls, for instance, that are made out of similar stuff would be permeable in some way and wouldn't try be trying to be just, like, perfectly sealed Deal. But in this case, it's a bunch of layers, and it's crystallized.
Melissa:And I don't know. I don't think it's like a bunch, Just to clarify.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:I don't think it's a bunch of cell walls. I think it just
Jam:Right.
Melissa:Is cellulose that's it's cellulose and a few other things Making up that outer shell.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:You mentioned cell walls, and I do think cell walls are semipermeable.
Jam:Right.
Melissa:But in this case, We're talking about pure cellulose on the Pure Well, not quite pure, but mostly cellulose. Yeah. Not. Don't think it's in cell wall form.
Jam:Right.
Melissa:But I will say that's biology and a little bit beyond my scope.
Jam:Right. Right. But it's The it is the key to this whole deal is that because it's such a good layer of mostly cellulose Mhmm. That is crystallized Hard, not permeable, unless there's a a defect or whatever Mhmm. On them.
Jam:It allows the pressure of the starch and the Water to increase to a point that it is able to burst out and create that you know, it gets molten enough and then 1st open and then immediately because the pressure has been released, it pulls back down and goes back to a foamy Solid or whatever. Mhmm. And, if it wasn't for having a really good, hard layer like that, it wouldn't be able to pop In the 1st place?
Melissa:Yes.
Jam:Because the pressure might be able to come out in some other tiny, you know, microscopic hole somewhere in there. Yeah. And let's see. You also shared about how the sound actually has to do with oh, did you actually answer that one yet, or did you tease that one?
Melissa:No. That's just it. The the sound actually comes when the pressure is released, not when or, like, when the air comes out.
Jam:When the air comes out. Yeah. Although the the Popping up of the
Melissa:That's that's what I have here. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Jam:So the sound is the not the cracking open of the The cellulose layer, but the air rushing in or Things rushing out. Things rushing out. Things rushing out. Does it. Okay.
Jam:Yep.
Melissa:The way they described it was similar to the way a champagne bottle sounds when it pops.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:It's like The court goes and you hear that characteristic pop, it's like, oh, the air is able to get out. Right. So but I bet if you slowed that Really far down. It's not technically the court coming out that's making the noise. It's the air rushing after it.
Jam:Got it. And that's so funny. Am I speaking of this, have you watched the show Succession at all?
Melissa:No. I am. Okay.
Jam:If you're one of our listeners who watched this, it made me think of, like, this sound and air, obviously, very linked together. Right? But one of the, lines that I've loved from that show is someone said something to this character like, But you said blah blah blah. And he's like, I said, you know, words. What a word.
Jam:Just complicated airflow. Basically, as a way of kinda shrugging off what he said. But I'm like, But that is true. I
Melissa:mean true.
Jam:Complicated movement of air and
Melissa:And our vocal cords.
Jam:And our vocal cords. All kinds of things Moving around in a very complicated way. I think
Melissa:we talked about that in the helium episodes.
Jam:Yes. We did. That's right. That's true. So What am I missing?
Melissa:I don't think you're missing anything.
Jam:Okay. I don't have an analogy. You had several that helped me already.
Melissa:I thought of another analogy while you were talking.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:I think that in construction, they use a foam for insulation that is similarly in a liquid state, and then it comes out of being under pressure and expands and immediately hardens.
Jam:Yes. Yes. Yep.
Melissa:Is that true? Yeah.
Jam:True. Yeah. We have some of that in a part of our deck that they the previous owners just used to, like, fill a hole instead of Doing something else. But, but, yes, that
Melissa:So that's another analogy.
Jam:Yeah. That's crazy. That stuff's not edible.
Melissa:No. Probably not, but probably a polymer that's under pressure.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:And it then the Air is allowed to rush out aerating it, and there's something that happens when it it's not heated, I'm guessing. So there's something that happens when it gets out that allows it to harden or activate. Right. So probably similar technology.
Jam:Yeah. Interesting.
Melissa:I just one thing I really liked about this is there is so much chemistry and a lot of chemistry we've touched on before. But, also, It's like when you when I went to the extension websites where they're explaining, you know, the difference between corn and, popcorn Mhmm. They essentially said popcorn pops. That's what makes it different. But if you then look at the molecular level, it's like the crystalline structure of a cellulose Shell is actually what makes popcorn popcorn.
Jam:Right. Right.
Melissa:Plus a good ratio of water and starch.
Jam:Can I ask you this, which which may have been said in one of the The resources that you read, but you might remember it, so sorry? But how hot are we talking that the is that
Melissa:one of your facts? Yes.
Jam:Okay. Nice. And I'm like, at this point, I'm thinking, okay. It's getting super hot. It's busting out of this very hard shell And then rapidly cooling, but used the word molten earlier.
Jam:Yeah. Which other than, like, molten lava
Melissa:cakes, I
Jam:think typically only applies when something is quite hot.
Melissa:Also gelatinous. You know?
Jam:Gelatinous. I thought that can go either way, though. Can't do it.
Melissa:Well, I will say I thought about this in the context of microwaves, which we also have a microwave episode, and that would specifically activate the water molecules.
Jam:Kilos. Oh.
Melissa:So I'm guessing it doesn't make the surrounding air as hot, but the pressure from the water molecules increasing the temperature probably also increases the temperature of the starch. But the temperature they said in there is a resource where they They looked at how much popped at this temperature and this temperature and this temperature, and there was a jump from 1 temperature to the next that was, like, 15%. Okay?
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:So they said at a 170 degrees Celsius, like, less than 80%,
Jam:I think
Melissa:it was around 75 of the popcorn popped, but at a 180, 96% of the popcorn
Jam:had popped.
Melissa:Wow. And Then another one said a 177 degrees Celsius. So a 177 degrees Celsius is 350 degrees Fahrenheit.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:So 3 50 degrees Fahrenheit for our listeners in the States. And for everybody else, a 177 Celsius.
Jam:K.
Melissa:That is the the ideal temperature for popcorn popping. That was one of my fun facts.
Jam:And so that'd be external. Correct? Like, the amount of heat sort of in the the environment the kernels need to be in.
Melissa:External for I think external for the oven and the stove. Okay. But I think if we're talking microwave, I don't know that we would say that because it's like
Jam:Right. It's
Melissa:not Microwaves work by activating the water molecule. Yeah. So I'm hesitant to say that yes across the board, but, yeah, I think the ambient temperature. And I don't think it said what the temperature inside was.
Jam:K. Because that's what I was curious about, but I was thinking I'm thinking, would it what would it is there a way that it could be hotter than that?
Melissa:Oh, for sure.
Jam:Because of the fact that it's, like, contained in there for so long.
Melissa:Yes. But how much
Jam:would we even be talking?
Melissa:I don't know. Wow. Sorry. That's a good question. I'll see if I can find it for the next q and r.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:Will you submit that at chemfreelife.com? Yeah. Okay. That was a good question. I'll look and see what if it's if the temperature is on the inside.
Melissa:Okay. Okay. So the next thing is, I already told you about the popping noise being from the water vapor escape.
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:Oh, sorry. I kind of had trouble sleeping lately. So Sorry. Excuse me. So the next thing is the air escaping might be you're like, it's a little explosion that propels the popcorn forward.
Melissa:Right? That's probably what you think?
Jam:Right.
Melissa:Not true.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:The first kind of crack that happens. It seems like if the popcorn kernel sitting on the ground, the first crack kind of happens. There's, like, almost a, like, a leg or a spring of starch that comes out, and the force of that starch is more the thing that propels it forward.
Jam:Got it.
Melissa:So instead of having a the the people who study this are physis they do physics?
Jam:Yeah. Physicists.
Melissa:And I think also they study it's like the movement of things.
Jam:Mhmm. And
Melissa:so they said it moves more like a gymnast and less like, you know, just like an explosion.
Jam:Right.
Melissa:They compared it to plants that use the pressure buildup and explosion versus, like, a gymnast springing up. Uh-huh. And it Mimicked more of the gymnasts, and they likened the first little bit of starch coming out to a leg.
Jam:Got it. Okay.
Melissa:Isn't that weird? That is weird. Spring.
Jam:But it kind of makes sense based on the memory I have of just, like, tried trying to eat those slow mo videos. Mhmm. There's, like, a gracefulness to it. Yes. You know, where it's like, It it explodes, and then it has, like it'll be, like, oftentimes spinning.
Melissa:Yep.
Jam:You know? As if it's, like, just kind of try to do a flip or in the usually several, I guess. Yeah. Where it's like something pushes it as the, I guess, that 1st leg of starch comes out, and it springs up and flips and No. A little bit of oil's flying off of it.
Jam:You know?
Melissa:And Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. I think you took it from an artistic approach. They did something so similar, but just in a way more advanced Like, way more frames of the camera Uh-huh.
Melissa:Able to look at every stage of the movement.
Jam:That's so cool.
Melissa:And I'd
Jam:love to see that.
Melissa:I think they even did the equations for it, which at that point, my brain is like, no. Yeah. But I thought that was really interesting.
Jam:That's cool.
Melissa:I already told you 13 to 13.5 to 14% of the water is what needs to be in the kernel for popping to be achieved.
Jam:K.
Melissa:And, I already told you about the temperature, so the last fun fact is popcorn is considered by many people to be a healthy food.
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:Some people think Starch, carbohydrates, not great.
Jam:Right.
Melissa:But here's what it does have going for it.
Jam:K.
Melissa:It's a whole grain.
Jam:K.
Melissa:It has nutrients like vitamins, minerals.
Jam:Awesome.
Melissa:And it's a good source of fiber and antioxidants that prevent cancer.
Jam:Uh-huh.
Melissa:There's a lot of polyphenols that help mitigate the radicals and other bad things that make cancer happen.
Jam:Wow.
Melissa:And go listen to our antioxidant episode.
Jam:That's awesome.
Melissa:If you're cooking it from the Colonel at home so you know exactly what's on it
Jam:Right.
Melissa:And if you use an oil that's got, like, healthy fats
Jam:in it Mhmm.
Melissa:I wouldn't say it's probably low calorie if you're using oils with healthy fats, but that are good for your, what it because isn't it that the Saturated fats. The unsaturated fats will wash away the saturated fats. I'm pretty sure.
Jam:Good question.
Melissa:Anyway, that so that's better for you. Uh-huh. So if you're using, like, olive oil or Canola oil, that's better
Jam:Right.
Melissa:Than butter, for example. And, you've got the fiber And you have antioxidants. So there's a lot of things. It's kind of like it remind me of the difference between, like, sugar and maple syrup. It's like they're both sweeteners.
Melissa:They're both high in calorie, and they're both probably not, like, the healthiest option. But there's a lot of nutrients Yeah. In maple syrup that white sugar doesn't have. And similarly, There's a lot of nutrients in popcorn that maybe other salty, buttery snacks don't have.
Jam:Right.
Melissa:And you can make it even healthier if you include nutrients that are good for you like in olive oil.
Jam:Right. Right.
Melissa:Isn't that cool?
Jam:That's very cool. I'd heard that. It's one of the things where, like, it's such a tasty snack.
Melissa:It's so tasty.
Jam:And, of course, we often associate with, like, movies and, You know candy as well. Mhmm. So I was just kinda like, is it healthier? I mean, like, that's not that's the way I'm eating it. I'm just kidding.
Melissa:Sometimes I was just like, am I just eating air?
Jam:Yeah. But I guess, yeah, that is probably part of it. It's less dense than other things. And, yeah, when we make it at home, we we do canola oil and salt. Yeah.
Melissa:That's what we do too.
Jam:And, I mean, to me, it is great. I mean, I I it doesn't feel like I'm giving anything up. And then I'm like, okay. It probably is pretty Great. Maybe I should just stick with that instead of all the other I love crunchy, salty snacks.
Jam:Mhmm. Maybe I should just stick with popcorn.
Melissa:And I will say every once in a while, I'll put some butter on it Uh-huh. Just if I'm doing, like, a movie night or something. And it even just a little bit of butter gets that buttery vibe. You know?
Jam:You know what I should do is on the stovetop, you know, what we do is, like, we put the curls in to test when they pop it's hot
Melissa:enough Mhmm.
Jam:Put oil in, but the butter can burn so easily. What I do is I put the butter in when I put the kernels in. Now I put the oil in.
Melissa:I put butter in after it's out and toss it in the butter.
Jam:That works pretty well too. I I have a hard time getting it distributed, and so I realized if I did it Right then, then it won't burn, but it'll get over a lot of the pretty distributed across a lot of the kernels. So
Melissa:Smart. Anyway, so those are our butter techniques. It's fun that's fun that the listeners are getting a little peek into, like, a niche part of our lives. Yes, sir. Like, they know about cast iron.
Melissa:They know about coffee, but they didn't really know that we're like, oh, we love to make popcorn at home.
Jam:Yep.
Melissa:That is the love that we share. Yeah. So that's kinda fun.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:Okay. Great. Well, thanks for doing this episode with me. It really, I'll go ahead and share my semi fun fact is Just the it's been kind of a hard week in Texas. We had, a pretty devastating, act of violence really close by, and I had been pretty down, and it's always a bright spot in my life to be able to learn about the world and then share about the world.
Melissa:And so, yeah, I'm just really glad that we were able to do this episode.
Jam:Me too.
Melissa:It really I think it Lightened up my heart a little after kind of a hard, hard week for my mental health.
Jam:Yeah. Like a little bit of something that not only you enjoy a lot and are passionate about, but is social and Community oriented and stuff like that. So
Melissa:And, yeah, I think whatever hard things happen like that, I try to reflect on what I'm thankful for, and I'm really thankful for this podcast. And I'm really thankful for the way that we have such a good relationship with our listeners and yeah. So I think, Is it cheating to make this episode as my fun thing for the week? I have lots of other fun things, but, this is this kinda pulled me out of a funk after that, Scary situation this weekend in Alan. I don't
Jam:think that's cheating. I mean, I I think it's a good one because the one I was planning on sharing, I can't. Not super long, but it's just that we got to go visit family. Like, you mentioned earlier, I was out of town. Mhmm.
Jam:Visiting family in Indiana, and that's kinda my de facto one, the biggest thing we've done recently. And a bunch of my wife's family got to meet our younger son for the 1st time, which is really good.
Melissa:Lucky for them, he's really cute.
Jam:And we got to, attend my niece my oldest niece on that side, her wedding, and then also Meet the newest, youngest niece on that side of the family too. So bunch of family stuff all at once. So We
Melissa:can hear all throw another one in that's less related to the and say, when you got back, we hadn't seen each other in a long time, and I normally get to, you know, hang out with the kids every week and Get to hang out with, Jam and his wife regularly. Like, they're some of our closest friends. And it was I was like, it's been a long time since I've seen y'all. So we Share a wedding anniversary.
Jam:Right. Yeah. And I
Melissa:was like, hey. It's your anniversary. Do y'all wanna go on a date? And what we ended up doing is We stayed over at their house in the guest room and then got to go on a nice walk to a coffee shop the next morning, and it was a really good morning. So Yeah.
Melissa:That was a that's a fun one that involved both of us too, and that's how I knew they went to the movies.
Jam:Yep. And because she creeps on us and make sure she knows our every moves.
Melissa:I mean, I do have Jam's location on Find My Friends. There's a time when I didn't have a car, when I rode my bike everywhere, and I shared my location with anyone who it. So I was like, the more people who had my location, the more likely somebody knew where I was. Yep. If something if I get into an accident and I'm stranded with my bike somewhere Yeah.
Melissa:Somebody will come looking for me. Yeah.
Jam:I'd rather some human beings that I know have my location than some corporation I don't know. That's, like, How I feel about it. Yeah.
Melissa:You know
Jam:what I mean? I'm like, I'd rather you have it. They'd be like, hey, I can't get ahold of so and so. I was like, oh, I have his location. I can make sure We can make sure he's okay or whatever.
Jam:Yeah. But, obviously, big topic. People have feelings about it, but I'd rather I
Melissa:don't care.
Jam:I'd rather have my friends know
Melissa:Yeah. Where I'm at.
Jam:Well, thanks for teaching us, and thanks for sharing a couple of extra, fun things. And, also, thanks for watching the kids so we could go on a date night.
Melissa:That was You're welcome.
Jam:That was super fun.
Melissa:It was fun for us too.
Jam:I was planning to share the details of that in my next fun thing because I because I have a hard thing. Oh, I
Melissa:still thinking of stuff. From you.
Jam:But I might do that then. I might give details about it next time, so we'll see. Who who knows?
Melissa:Who knows? You might something new might have happened by then.
Jam:Yeah. That's true.
Melissa:It will watch them again.
Jam:Well, thanks for teaching us, and thank you, Joey, for sending this question in. And probably, and also our friend's Daughter
Melissa:Yes.
Jam:For asking questions about it too, and maybe somebody else who's also asked this.
Melissa:And all of y'all for for caring about chemistry and popcorn.
Jam:Yeah. And if you have a question about something in your life that you're wondering, is that chemistry could chemistry explain this thing? The answer is no. Probably not. Just kidding.
Jam:It's probably yes, And please reach out to us on our website atkemforyourlife.com. That's Kim, f o r, your life, .com to share your thoughts and ideas. To help us keep our show going and contribute to cover the cost of making it, go to patreon.com/chem for your life or tap the link in our show notes for the description to join our super cool community of patrons. If you're not able to do that, you can still help us by subscribing on your favorite podcast app, subscribing on YouTube, And, rating and writing review on Apple Podcasts. That also helps us to share chemistry with even more people.
Melissa:This episode is made nope. This episode of Chemistry For Your Life was created by Melissa Coleenie and Jam Robinson, and Jam Robinson is our producer. This episode is made possible by our financial supporters over on Patreon. It means so much to us that you wanna help make chemistry accessible to even more people, including our new supporter, Neli. So, the rest of those supporters are Avishai B, Brie M, Brian K, Chris and Claire s, Chelsea b, Derek l, Emerson w, Hunter r, Jacob t, Christina g, Lynn s, Melissa p, Nicole c, Steven b, Shadow, Timothy p, and Venus r.
Melissa:Thank you again for all you do To make chemistry of your life happen.
Jam:And if you like to learn more about today's chemistry lesson, check out the references for this episode in our show notes or in the description of the video.
Melissa:Yay, popcorn.