Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Creativity isn’t tidy—it’s risky, chaotic, and full of surprises. It’s full of breakthroughs and breakdowns, moments of flow and moments of doubt. Join Mishu Hilmy for unfiltered conversations with artists, filmmakers, musicians, and fearless makers who thrive in the unknown, embrace imperfection, and create at the edge of possibility.
This is your front row seat to the self-doubt, unexpected wins, and messy emotional work of making something real. But craft isn’t just about feeling—it’s about problem-solving, process, and the devotion behind mastery.
Subscribe now for weekly episodes that celebrate the unpredictable, the playful, and the deeply human side of making things. Join the mailing list at mischiefpod.com
Email anytime at podcast@ohhmaybe.com and follow us @mischiefpod
Welcome to Mischief and Mastery where we embrace the ups, downs, and all around uncertainty of a creative life and that steady and sometimes not so steady journey toward expertise. Each episode we talk candidly with people I know, people I don't know, folks who produce, direct, write, act, do comedy, make art, make messes, and make meaning out of their lives. You will hear guests lay out how they work, what they're thinking about, where they get stuck, and why they snap out of their comfort zones and into big bold
risky moves. So if you're hungry for honest insights, deep dives into process philosophies and practical tips, plus maybe little mischief along the way, you're in the right place. For more, visit mischiefpod.com.
Mishu Hilmy (00:49)
Hey everyone, it's Mishu, and welcome to the show. Today we talk with Alex Rembold. Very fun conversation. I met him a few years ago. Actually before the lockdown, we met at the Old Town Owl House after a second city show, training center show that I directed. We ended up talking for a couple hours and he was thinking about moving to Chicago and he eventually did. And I hadn't seen him since 2018, 2019. And today, or this conversation was the first time we talked since then. So.
You're hearing us getting right into it. Alex Rembold is the founder of Cat Jam Chicago, a nonprofit organization dedicated to fostering community connection and creativity in education through music and partnerships with value-driven organizations. He's also a music director at the IO, Second City and Annoyance Theaters, and is the producer of the show Cozy Sweater, which is like a Mr. Rogers improv show, an improvised Mr. Rogers. He's a songwriter and also leads the band Funky Funga.
and is an all around swell guy. So yeah, what do we talk about in this episode? get into it. We talk about improvisation, music, and how all that can influence performances and how we connect with audiences. We also get into embracing failure, how to use empathy and collaboration and what it means to really play versus work when it comes to creating. You can catch Cat Jam every Tuesday at the Insect Asylum and also starting in June.
Alex will be at Wild Mile, a floating garden on the Chicago River. So that'll be a fun summertime activity for those jams. All jams are from 7 p.m. to 10 p.m. He's also producing the Cozy Sweater or Improvise Mr. Rogers. So be on the lookout for that. I'll share more on the show notes as well as you can follow him on Instagram at Remby on the bone. So here it is, me and Alex. Hope you enjoyed.
Alex Rembold (02:44)
It seems all connected because I like the way that we're talking about process and a big process at least for me is the way that I interact with other people. That's where I really take a look at processes and that social connection. actually, I will say one little loophole that I got through the how to record and stuff. Bargaret. I have friends that are amazing recording artists and like...
we will do exchanges for free. I will be able to get a lot of things or at least for free as in non-monetary things. To me, it's free though, because oftentimes the things that I bring to the table that they would like for me are the most enjoyable things that I would share anyway. So it's just this nice, I think, actually my time in when we talk about, you know, we're going to also camp as we get into the topic of empathy more.
I've so much. There's so much I've learned about empathy. I mean, from my time in improv as well that I want to bring over. Like I think like these different schools, improv, music, stage, they all have different things that they bring to the table that I think the others would benefit from. But especially when I look at the music scene, I can oftentimes see people getting in a mindset of being more cut.
Threaten
Because you can become super successful on your own right the superstar musician Taylor Swift You know like you they will see that as a very true business person was able to take out the competition you know that And when I take a look at it though from my experience in improv and at least the IO school thought seemed to be Being very selfless take care of the other you know your job is to make your stage partner look like a genius And if everyone is taking care of each other then the rising tide lifts all boats
Mishu Hilmy (04:28)
Right.
And when I come out to, so I might bring that to music, it does become a, my thought, my job as a musician, any performance that I'm in, how can I make my stage partners look like a genius?
Also, know, thing is, I think about maybe I'm there with a musician who isn't the most experienced. I do that all the time. I love bringing people into music. And with that comes in people who are trying their hardest. But the thing is what I know, and this is my experience, also have been a musician who's struggling, not just career-wise, but as a musician, know, my tone wasn't good enough, things like that.
I know that feeling of being on stage and someone giving you that look of just like, what are you doing? And that's the worst thing you can do to a kid who's just trying to get a solo down. The thing I do, you I think back to improv was it Amy Poehler who said like, when you're afraid on stage, look to your partner's eyes and saying you need to have that, it's going to be okay. So when I'm leading a band or a jam or anything and I hear some, I'm never going to give them a look of disgust instead.
I want to give them this look of you've got this. Yeah. You're on little rocky bumps now, but like on a hot spot, I've seen it so many times when people feel confident, they play. Yeah. When you play confident, you can do much more than you think.
Mishu Hilmy (05:51)
Right? When you're in the process of making something with someone, it's like the principle of we're both collaborating together. Do I collaborate with judgments or non-judgment? And I think improvisation creates the muscle of like non-judgment. Right? Like you can't fully play in a scene if you are judging the person who's across from you. Like, wow, that was a dumb move. Or if I do have that thought, I'm going to let it go and just like not have to betray myself versus, you know, if you're performing with someone.
and they're judging you while you're doing it, not very helpful. Right. So like to create that either that space of non-judgment, because again, it's like, it's just a performance and yeah, there's, there's scale of that, right? Like whether it's eight people in the audience or 800 people in the audience, but still I think a professional ideally will just like be able to let those flaws go. but the other thing is like process and principles, right? Like whether you're in the music scene or performance scene or writing scene or post-production scene, what I like.
Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (06:50)
about process and principles is you can apply them universally. If you like spend enough time thinking about it, you can go, all right, what's the spirit of like, I got your back or trying to make your partner look good. If that's an improvisational principle, how can you apply it to when you're producing a soundtrack or you're, you know, working jamming with a band. like that's one of the exciting things about just talking about process and go, yeah, I haven't thought about that in a while. How can you implement that?
One, what you're talking, know, process, and then just like how those relate. I don't know if you've heard, in my opinion, the best jazz album ever recorded. Unironically, I fully believe is the album. Well, I should have asterisk asterisk dot dot dot learned how to play piano.
It's John Benjamin.
It's John Benjamin and like he doesn't know how to play piano, right? But that's the entire bit is he's going there and he has three super supportive amazing musicians, know, the saxophones, drummer and bassist. And like the thing though is I see the reason I actually think is an amazing album is I do see, you know, H.
or John, don't know if I should call him H for short. Yeah, he came from a comedy world. I assume he's done a lot of improv. In fact, I he absolutely has. But those same skills transferred over. Sure, the keys that he's playing are kind of gobbledygook, but when you listen to where the jabs are, when you listen to the energy, where he's putting it, and then what you see is he's doing the same thing you do in improv.
Alex Rembold (08:23)
listening, the act of listening, that response that like, can I, how will this be supportive in any way, even though it's still gobbled, he can still find ways to support. Almost, I tell a lot of my students who are starting off and they want to do some improv, but they don't really know what they're doing. I'll say like, play it as a drum, right? Even though the gobbled, the notes might be gobbled, it kind of put it back. So yeah, they're able to.
Right.
Alex Rembold (08:52)
that forces them to do less of thinking of what notes, but listen for the time that I read it today.
Yeah, the spirit of it. Yeah, like I think it's also again, like the principle of like, you know, when your first beginning versus when you have had enough practice, like failing is like getting over the fear of doing it wrong. You I imagine you have like tentative people at the piano, like just don't want to the keys the wrong way versus like when I'm home alone at a keyboard, my partner will get annoyed. But I'm like, to me, doesn't bother me how noisy and dissonant like
nonsensical it sounds because it's like i'm still i'm playing a rhythm that's jazz like and it's i love doing it like i don't the cacophony of nonsense doesn't bother me but it's like in the spirit of like it doesn't matter like no who's judging me yeah i'm not judging i'm deliberately trying to make this sound bad
am I making bad art, right? Just having that as an exercise of, yeah, drive this thing into the correct. So good for it's so healthy to that for an antidote and a prescription for perfectionism.
Right. Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (09:59)
it's like freeing and you know the same goat like again like principles apply universally if you think about it and deconstruct it enough you know especially in like post-production right like i got a mix i don't know then don't worry like save it as like what happens if you add too much reverb what happens if you add too much gain like yeah it's that that spirit rather than like i don't want to break the thing it was like there's nothing to break it's just there
I think that entire... I think, fring it up, just as you said too, of kind of the way people play alone at midnight. That where they really are allowed to be alone with their thoughts. Yeah, I've seen a lot of, even myself, like I'll be playing and yeah, you hit the wrong thing. Actually, so guess taking a step back was the way I learned.
music from the early, in the very early days of my youth. Like I think I was five when my parents got me two piano lessons and the teacher gave up on me saying, yeah, this kid's not going to get it. Like, excuse me, I am five. But I remember though, we still had this piano and I would go up to it. And I think it helped that actually, in many ways I didn't have a teacher because that can be like, there's a right way and a wrong way. I went up and this is the thing I tried to get my students to look at is let, you know,
It's a bit experimentational, scientific thing of just like, this interval sounds good. This does not. these sound nice together. These do not. And I think someone put it well, you play a piano, you don't work a piano. Right? So yeah, it's, mean, it's a thing of like, yeah, I mean, A, should be having fun. And B, I think it's when you, when you approach it as I'm playing rather than working, when you're working a piano, it's like, this should be the input and this should be the output.
Hmm. I'm not familiar with that yet.
Mishu Hilmy (11:44)
Yeah.
I go to work and it's like, there should be a result for it. Whereas if you play, play, might not know what you're, what's going to come out. And that's actually the point of it. Yeah. Discovery. Yeah. I think like, I mean, discovery is kind of the, of the biggest joys of
Yeah, discovering how you feel, how you feel listening to it. Because you mentioned something earlier about the flabbergasted look of someone you're performing with or a teacher and what sort of work versus play, right? And I think what erodes that play, I reread Stephen Pressfield's War of Art and I probably mentioned it a bunch of times in other recordings, territory versus hierarchy. If you're thinking hierarchically, you're trying to rise up the ladder. So everything is like a competition against what's above you.
and you're trying to keep anyone who's below you below you, right? You're trying to like fight off your spot versus like territorially. This is my territory. When I'm in front of my piano, this is the territory or when I'm on stage, this is the territory. Every minute or every hour I spend, no one can take that away from me. And it's just, that's it. So if you're focusing on the territory of doing your reps or your work, you can become more, you can play within it versus like it's not play.
If I don't hit the right notes consistently, I can't become the first chair or whatever, or get hired to, you know, play it, you know, radio city.
Alex Rembold (13:08)
I think like what's interesting, were saying territory versus hierarchy. I haven't heard that before, but I really like it. What do you say also, like kind of with, and I haven't read the book, but territory, sounds like it is on one hand, you're right. This is my piano. This is why at the moment I get, but also when you see other people on stage with you, they're part of that community. Yeah, you're in that territory together. Very cool. So yeah, back in high school, I had two band directors because I switched like ninth grade.
Side note, our school district, the two high schools were under construction, so we had this ninth grade campus, which no one else gets. But when I think back now, that's genius. No hierarchy. One grade in one school. But in that one, I had a band director who was the hierarchical. These are what you need to do. You're very strict on them. And I get it. either you've got, you know, wants to put discipline to the art. But, you know, but this was still the same guy who stopped the band.
pointed at and said, you do understand you are what's wrong with his band, right? And not my tempo. Exactly. I've not seen that movie for a reason, but the thing is I look at the way he approached and then my band director for the rest of high school, he was his philosophy. He kind of said his secret happiness was take what you do seriously, but don't take yourself.
Night tempo.
Mishu Hilmy (14:31)
Yeah, let's,
And I think, yeah, I still, I love that. And of course I love that his favorite band at the time was LMFAO because it was 2010. But still it was an entire thing that I think, I think what I take away from that was yeah, don't take yourself seriously. You're not inherently better. In fact, you're not, you there's no, you are not any,
Right.
Alex Rembold (15:02)
you know, certain. You have to, what respect you get is the respect you give. And I look at kind of the student, you know, I am on Facebook and I can see the students that came from the two different circles of thought. I see the students that came from the latter that take you seriously, but don't take yourself seriously. They were given the, they were still allowed to feel the joy.
Respect as a musician.
Alex Rembold (15:28)
and love of their music that they took it so far. One is a Netflix run going on. One is a hip hop producer in Seattle. And they are doing amazing stuff. They're wonderful people came from the other side, but I'm just looking at the direction there when they did not go in traditional raps. The way I saw it, and I think going in
Well, in today's age, can't really go in, you can't go traditional, but seeing that exploration, that's where I'm.
Well, even traditional routes are like inherently conservative and usually institutional based, right? It's like, here's the roadmap. And then it's just like the only way to hit each plot point on the roadmap is to successfully go through this conservative or hierarchical model. And when it comes to like, again, the principle of, know, don't take yourself seriously, take the work seriously. It's like even that principle approach or a more gentle or broader approach is like as an instructor, you're not projecting what.
the responsibility of music is or music career is it's like this person might have music in their life from 16 to 22 and it has done what it needed to do for their life and they let it go and move on some people go I'll do a Netflix run or whatever versus like it becomes the identity like you you have to be good at this you have to do this for these reasons and if you're not you're a phony and then sorry I got to go down this path and
I don't know. just don't think that's like the best long-term thing. I improvised it, got what I needed out of it. Then I can apply it when I use it. Occasionally I miss jamming and once a year, if I'm near a theater and it's like, I see a sign, it's like Monday, 8 p.m. student jam. I'll just like show up and you know, kill it.
Alex Rembold (17:11)
Who is this guy? You should pay 400 me in my class. Yeah, no, I think you're right there too. Music performs anything, anything. Boat building, taking it where it doesn't have to be that very concrete identity that you stick with. It can take care of you for that time. Also with that, you know, when I'm teaching students, a lot of private lessons too. When I do try to be a more, okay, here are the exercise lessons.
Yes.
hold ourselves to a higher standard. I look at my students and I try to, what I do is I look at them and I say, okay, this kid is going, this is a musical genius who there is one inside. If I treat the kid just as the, this kid's, they'll never get better. But I see that. But the other thing I recognize too, I've done the same. They may step away from music, maybe temporary, maybe permanently, but also recognizing that the things I do as a teacher are still going to be impactful.
Yeah, yeah.
Alex Rembold (18:08)
And if they, there's a good chance they may return to music when they're 30, but still having kind of an early age, this little voice in the back of their head. It's knowing that's like they're the path is long. We have a long life ahead of us, but yeah. So I think then it kind of, we're getting to empathy a bit really comes down to recognize. Yeah.
This
Alex Rembold (18:35)
I was thinking about this on the way in. Where is my definition of
yeah,
And I think about it, is, I think there is a certain, there is a reaching out, but there also is a certain reaching in. Mentioned I'm working on a little improvised Mr. Rogers thing and I'm writing that first introduction song. Actually the outro song, have a, you I know I'm not the only one. I think a huge part of it and recognizing it's a reaching in and kind of being, it's a comforting thing to yourself to say, I am not alone.
I feel that's the first thing you need to start saying is I'm not a... because then I know when I reach outward, I know that the person across me, despite the fact I can't feel your feelings for you, I can take a mongoose. You're dealing with the same fears generally. We all wake up and have to think about what we...
Yeah
Mishu Hilmy (19:28)
Yeah.
Alex Rembold (19:32)
for breakfast or we have that I'm trying to work on this and work on this and work on this or this thought of success. It's just out of reach or you know, these very common things. But I feel we, in many ways, we all feel we're alone in this. And I think there's a lot of what I try to do is help people recognize that they live in a world with problems that everyone has their own path.
these problems are still so universal, at least in a more broad sense.
When it comes to empathy, I think my definitions are more based on like Marshall Rosenberg's non-biological communication. But I think they touch on similar things like all feelings are universal, all needs are universal. The problem is most people don't have the language to either understand what they're physically feeling and experiencing or what need is being met or unmet. So most people fixate on the strategy, right? The strategy is like, I'm feeling hungry. I got to make myself a sandwich. Great.
That's a strategy to meet your need for like, you know, nourishment or food. But if you're too exhausted to make a sandwich or all your food in the fridge is rotten, you're going to be like frustrated. So it's like, all right, I'm still hungry. Okay. There's an app on the cabinet or maybe I'll order food. So it's like finding different strategies to meet needs. Yeah. And like, just for me, like it's just the curiosity of what's going on. Like empathy is like, can't change what you're physically feeling. can't, it's not my responsibility, but.
to help feel less alone or connected is just to have curiosity. yeah, how you feeling? Are you feeling frustrated because you can't play like how you want to play or you're feeling anxious because the person you voted for didn't win? So I think the world would be a lot better if people were focused on just being present for people's experience at an empathetic level.
Alex Rembold (21:27)
I think I like the I like part of the use of that that physical need food the nourishment
Like communities in need, friendship, so many needs beyond just the sort Maslow's.
Well, and one thing that I, you know, from what I saying, it's like how you approach it in a very, what was it? Just a very, a very kind of results driven, right? These are the things I need. could get very strict. Actually, you know, I think I used to be doing sales and marketing, you know, that was where I, after college, here you go, here's something practical.
Right.
Alex Rembold (22:12)
I know I never did well there, a big thing that I took away leaving that, in fact, leaving jobs altogether, I'm currently self-employed. I'm navigating my own world. there was, I noticed the moment, the day that I left the full time, know, here's your W2. The moment I left that, there was this moment. First, it was, I am a.
God, captain of my own ship. but then there's when I started looking at other people who I worked with very differently because the power structure was different. You know, when I, when I was inside a very hierarchical structure where you need to get what you need, you're thinking very strategically, it was very, um, dehumanizing in that my conversations were a game of chess.
Right? Or there's like fear driven, right? Like, you know, oh, let's just talk about nonsense, like sports or whatever.
Yeah. Yeah. No. And yeah, it's that I think you have fear driven. There's also the, you know, along with that isn't the, don't want to lose my job. Yeah. But then, I'm talking about sports when you get into a, when I was suddenly working for myself, I think, first of all, I was, even though it was less stable, there's certainly a fear of God. If I don't go out and hunt, I'm not going to go. But when talking with people is a little different because suddenly I saw us more on.
equal. And when the power structure was gone, I act very differently and I actually have had better connections with others.
Mishu Hilmy (23:53)
Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, I think in sort of a hierarchy, especially, let's say a corporate hierarchy, it's, you know, it makes it easier to choose alienation and choose zero accountability or responsibility. Like, oh, I'm not laying 12 people off. I'm just doing what I'm told. Right. So I think getting or having at least awareness, stepping away from that, you can see like the decisions I might make, like the decisions I'm making, are they aligned with like my values and my sense of ownership?
versus in a different environment. like, okay, well, I'm just going to behave in such a way because I can alleviate any sort of responsibility.
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think like, part of that too is going back, I'm back, back, where we were talking about the classical way of maybe being a musician versus more, you know, the following kind of the curiosity is, you know, I think a lot of struggle artists who are, who are self-employed or going on, know, anyone who's going on kind of that unstructured route that's so often.
You can, what's your five year plan, right? What's your plan? And it makes sense in a corporate world because you go in an interview, you have a resume and you have all these, did this, this, this, and this, and this. And I did those of course on purpose because that was my plan to get me to here. I had a plan and I executed it. Now I'm sitting here at this interview, which is not how it works. But in that structure, you do see a certain
Like you can start to generally have an idea of what your five year plan is. In where I'm at, at least in the arts where you're following a curiosity, there is no five year plan. really is a, because I look back on it and it's like the op, the direction I went was oftentimes based off of these opportunities that just popped up. I could not plan. And all I can keep doing is try to keep finding the opportunities, follow the fund.
Alex Rembold (25:47)
And my growth will not be from a prescriptive, do X, Y, and Z, and here I go. It is more of a, I feel like a mode of travel, which is here it comes in, probably with yes and, but you know, being able to be like, okay, things are going to change in very unpredictable ways, but what is my vehicle that's going to allow me to maneuver the way I want to.
because ultimately it's choice and lifestyle choice, right? I don't think there's anything inherently problematic of a five-year plan. It's just like becoming aware of like what's been working for you or where your heads at because, you know, having that structure, especially if it's like, again, like a well-worn path, it's just what kind of experience are you trying to accomplish or achieve or go through? Because if it's like, well, I got to hit these five beats or these 10 beats in the next five years,
Then it's like, you're, you're, journey is you're trying to get on an on ramp to the highway of success. And that's fine. Yeah. Versus the other polar opposites. Like I'm walking into the woods with a lantern and I see a butterfly and I'm just going to walk towards that. Cause I find that interesting. Yeah. Exciting. And then each end in death. But it's like, what's, what's the life, what's the experience in that? know, neither is better or worse, but, you know,
You
Mishu Hilmy (27:10)
driving down I-90 from New York to Oregon, it's a different view than hiking through.
Yeah
Alex Rembold (27:19)
No, absolutely. And like, yeah, it is a, you know, one is, and they'll still say one is certainly less stable. Sure. You you follow the butterfly. You'll find yourself in a marsh and that, but you have to muck through it. You find yourself in a marsh and you muck through it and you're going to eventually come out to a clearing. And there's, maybe, or a cliff, you may find yourself at a cliff and you have to, well, either you fall off or you you.
Yeah.
Alex Rembold (27:47)
be adaptable.
it.
Mishu Hilmy (28:05)
Yeah, and this is the thing it's like you the the mental space of confronting yourself when you're alone in the woods is different than say when you're on a highway or you're on a roadway or you're on a Boulevard right you're gonna see other people driving and you're like well, they're doing the same thing as me. They're looking okay It's just like different head spaces
Yeah. Well, I guess one thing I'm saying about you said, you're going through the woods. We're not necessarily alone going through the right? You're going to go follow that butterfly and sure you could end up with a marsh, but also odds are, and this is I found more, I'd say this makes more sense. You follow the butterfly. Maybe you're about to head to a marsh, but you turn a corner and bam, you hit someone who is also following a butterfly.
but maybe they knew someone who was in the marsh or maybe they've been following the butterfly a little differently. Like actually, you you've been kind of going straight out. I've been keeping eyes out or actually, you know, you like butterflies. Let me tell you, I know this guy.
Yeah, maybe someone's following a bird. mean, that's like a different, that's the thing, you know, different approaches, different perspectives too, like an improviser meeting a musician or whatever.
Absolutely. I'm like, no, it is going back to the empathy. And I actually have this, I think this is maybe a good point to talk about, but a very point of pride for me is creating Cat Jam. yeah. So I created basically it's, it's a music jam. You have musicians coming in, but also non-musicians. I love to think of myself as like, you know, or think of what this event is as a
Mishu Hilmy (29:34)
What's that?
Alex Rembold (29:47)
gateway drug to music. So a lot of people who were in that, yeah, I played flute for a little bit, but my teacher was mean. So I left, I stopped doing it. I want to help people be like, no, it's okay. You don't have to be afraid of your instrument. In fact, this can be a place of joy. But a lot of, think how that built originally is just a reason to party. Like I just, after an open, I've thrown the open mics near where I lived. was like, Hey,
this ends really early is the uncommon ground open mic shout out there. But the, would say, Hey, let's, let's go hang out at my place. And so there's kind of regular hangout started off. And I think that's how I think of it. It doesn't seem serious in the moment on it. And there was something where it's like, Oh, you know, maybe there is a seriousness to the party. is something, and when I say seriousness, guess maybe a bigger picture to what seems frivolous in the party because this, these people kept coming.
I kept meeting people, I was having this community just walking through my living room. And at one point, know, we decided to, it was summertime. I didn't want, you know, the 14, 15 people in my steamy living room. So we go to the lake and then suddenly it's like, oh, this is a thing. We're going to go to the lake and then I actually ran into my neighbor. She works for urban rivers, which is a wonderful nonprofit. They are about cleaning up the Chicago river. They're building a floating garden called the wild mile.
Ask, Hey, do want to hold it there? Okay. Suddenly now we're having some direction. And this is where, yeah. So I started to then host these events at cool places. did the wild mile. did a Borelli's is a pizza and music school. we got onto Navy Pier at one point for an art exhibition we set up there. And then now we are calling home at the insect asylum, which is another nonprofit, which is about educating the.
Yeah
Alex Rembold (31:39)
people about the animals of the world and is very in that. So what I've created basically is a way to have communities come together in really cool places that will help create really good purposes. So all of a sudden you have these nonprofits who are going, if I get this music jam here, the nonprofits I've worked with, they've got a lot more people on their volunteer email list.
Yes.
that. So they're definitely benefiting, but I think more importantly, what they're seeing, what I'm seeing, what the community seeing is just kind of this coming together where I think everyone is able to relax knowing that they are in a welcoming, connected space where they are not alone and they know they don't have the pressure, they're not working their instrument, they are truly playing.
Yeah, it goes to the forest, right? You're like, this all leads to these unexpected surprises and new connections and relationships. And it's in spirit of those principles and process. Yeah, I remember reading this book 15 years ago, I think called The Talent Code. I don't remember who wrote it. Maybe David something or Daniel something or Howard. don't remember. But it's an argument in the book is like most teachers
coaches, professional educators of whether it's tennis or piano or violin. They have a very bad track record of like calling who's going to be the most successful student. The strongest indicator that they pointed to in their sort of scientific surveys and literature was the best indicator for long-term success in any endeavor is initial early enthusiasm. So it's like if a person like trying to the flute or their teacher or clarinet or whatever the teacher was like so mean they'd stop playing like 10 years.
Mishu Hilmy (33:28)
versus had they had an instructor who early on could give a shit if they're doing it right. But they're just enthusiastic about the person is great. So like you're creating space. It's sort of recreating that enthusiasm for just like jamming and playing with the instrument.
100 % No, enthusiasm is passion is the number one driver. Right.
And going back to like my time in sales and marketing, I took those jobs mainly because, I needed money, but yeah, I do remember being told when deciding, you know, okay, you're going to college. What should you study? Things like that. I was told, do not do what you are passionate about. Do not follow your passions. Do something practical that you're good at, and then you'll become passionate about that thing. And then you'll become amazing and find all the success and love in the world. For some people that's true. But what happened with me was I was told, okay,
Don't do what you love. Go into the world, find something what seems to be a practical path. I went more traditional paths. And I remember being in these jobs, I am so.
You're stuffing traffic on the highway.
Alex Rembold (34:32)
stuck in traffic, it sucks. I must be on the right path. Any moment now, you know, I hate this. So therefore this is on, you this is my five year plan. And when I left that to follow something I was passionate about, I, you this is where I learned if you don't have passion for what you do, if you don't have that spark, then you are not going to be willing to push through the hard times. You're not going to be willing to burn the midnight oil to actually be good at what
do. The things that I learned in those corporate jobs are still very valuable. Those are part of the success I have today. I know how to organize a marketing campaign. I know how to organize a sales funnel. And those are super important to being able to be successful as far as the nuts and bolts of the career for any kind. Yes. My dad would say no bucks, no Buck Rogers. It's like, gotta have that, you know, if you want to change the world, first you need to eat. But the thing is, is that like,
Yeah.
Alex Rembold (35:30)
If when I look at it in hindsight, I'm now the passions with the world I'm in now, I actually look back at those jobs I hated and I'm thankful. Cause now knowing that that was part, that was actually part of the process to get me to where I am today. Like it was like, yeah, that sucked, but that gave me the kick in the butt to be like, I never want to do that again. And some of the hard skills that I, know, a little resentment, but like, ah, yeah, I guess I had to learn that.
Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (36:00)
I mean, again, like principles and process, right? Like I went through all of college, never looking at a spreadsheet. And which means like part of my ability to approach work did not have maybe a logic orient or a structured orientation versus, you know, all these boring data entry jobs that I've done and VLOOKUPs. Like I don't necessarily use it as much, but it has given me a process to think about things and tools to do it. So like, yeah, I don't, I'm similar. I'm grateful for like.
all the variety of like weird meaningless stages. But that's the thing. It's like what meets that need for meaning and engagement and to be aware of like, all right, those jobs didn't meet those needs for meaning and engagement. And you luckily exit out, but you can think about them and see how they contribute to your growth, which is like a great way to like put new perspective on it and put meaning on how it was valuable to you. But I think it's important. Like you said, you, you were convinced or kind of directed to live.
a more conservative life, get on the on-ramp, drive on the metaphorical highway, and then you're there and you're like, I don't want to be here. And you made a choice, right? You like decided to go. I could just suffer through this numbness or this boredom like a lot of other people who I think are really driven by fear, sort of appeasing their parents or their family unit or their religion or whatever. But you made a choice to go. I'm going to do something that might be seen as disagreeable or embarrassing or
put, inspire fear in your parents, know, whatever. They might be like, what are you doing? You had X number of cash a year in the salary and now you're doing a potpourri creative aspects that might pay you $20 to $20,000. Like who knows?
Well, and actually that was a couple things, but you know, first of all, like it is really nice. My parents came to visit a couple of weeks ago or guess a month, a couple months. And like they knew of cat jam. was a first I could tell just in the conversations, like.
Alex Rembold (37:56)
Yeah, Alex is having fun. what, you know, come on, let's talk about the big picture here. They came, they saw a cat jam and now suddenly they saw, and I think it is a thing where there's a, maybe that was my projection from the room and stuff too, but I think a lot of people who are there worried about making their parents disappointed. My parents saw what I was doing and saw how happy and passionate I was.
And then SYNC Base also saw the potential. Like when I was talking about the process and my plans for a camp and all these things, my dad, love him so much. He was a sales manager and my God, if you need something to give you a pep talk, that guy can talk you off the edge. And when it came to seeing this, he was like, okay.
I see it from even the business perspective. He's like, okay, I see the vision here. I see how the dream can happen. then like our conversations afterwards are completely different. But I think so much of that fear of disappointing my parents and everything. think a lot of that was kind of the story I had up here. But ultimately I think, you know, parents do want to see their kids succeed and be happy at the end of the day. This also though, another point talking about being on the highway and having the courage to get off. One job I worked, was.
in a chemical distribution company selling phenolic resin. And I really didn't know what phenolic resin was. I just knew the military called me a lot. So I'm like, are we the baddies? I remember here, God, it was a soul sucking job. But I was there for two months, 26 days and four hours. But when I left, there was one sales guy.
the most hot shot, charismatic. This guy seemed to be the life of the party of the office. Said, ah, Alex, you know, let's, let's go and let's grab a beer together. Come on, let's chat. I'm like, okay, yeah. So after the work, we go to this brewery and we sit down and he's a completely different man outside of He's the most defeated I've seen. Man, I, I really wanted to be a brewer.
Mishu Hilmy (40:02)
Stay.
Alex Rembold (40:08)
I really want this is my love brewing and my I grew up, you know, this big scene there, but I just I looked at the market and I knew it just wouldn't be successful. I can't I just know it's not something that I'm right. I just I could never have I just honestly admire you. I could never have the courage to do what you do. And I thought I don't think I could have the courage to do what you do. That seems terrifying to me.
to say I'm gonna do something quote unquote practical and not follow perhaps this bigger meaning that when I, one day I'm going to die. And I have to ask myself, who do I wanna be in the graveyard? Do I wanna be the best salesman that was in the graveyard? Do I wanna be the best musician that was in the graveyard? Do I wanna be the best performer? And I've been thinking about this and I think following your passions.
Right. Right.
Alex Rembold (41:06)
helps you with the plot that is just like, know, maybe the plot you have. I think more importantly to me, at least when I think about cat jam, the way I've operated, it helps me to know that I don't want to necessarily be the best performer, the best whatever is graveyard. want to know that the graveyard I'm in is surrounded with people filled with people who maybe because maybe I had an impact on that made them feel more comfortable with them.
so
be able to reach out and be just a better, maybe some better humans came out of it. And that's kind of my, you when I look back on that, that it's much, I'm much more willing to take those risks. In fact, think it's riskier not to.
Yeah, you just have this one life and like who who's it for at the end of the day, right? Like it's I remember I think one of Mick Napier's books on improvising talks about inertia and silence. So like if you are in a silent scene or if you're in a scene and you have a scene partner who's just kind of yapping and talking and you're just silent, silent, silent, you haven't responded yet. There's this like psychological inertia that goes on in the improviser's head, which is like
my gosh, the scenes going on. said anything. haven't done anything. my gosh, I gotta do something good. I gotta do something big. I gotta do something better. No, everyone's looking at me. They can all tell I haven't said anything and this person's still talking. What do I do? What do do? The person finally starts talking and the infrastructure is like stuck, frozen in this inertia of silence. And then all that fear bundles up into them being like, Hey, how's like what? Like you just like a nothing. And I think this one thing happens to like patterns you create in your life. Well, I've worked this
Mishu Hilmy (42:45)
day job and I want to be, I want to do pruning, but now I'm just, the inertia is building up and it's like, well, I've just done this. Everyone knows me as like the funny sales guy and I just do this and it's five years, 10 years, 20 years. And like, now you're 70 and you're looking back like, why didn't I just break the inertia and do that thing or the sort of logic of the fear, the fear of, I don't want to take this risk, the aversion and seeing the big vision. Like I'm going to start a.
a brewery with a bunch of eight drums or whatever versus like, why don't you do it in your living room? Why don't you start something like that? It's like that. Yeah, but think that's kudos to keep up the spirit of like, am doing it for impact or community, which is fine. A lovely sentiment.
Yeah, I think kind of what you're talking about with being the brewer or, you know, taking those risks. I also remember being in a, I remember being in a, in a little therapy session and this was early on in Chicago and I was like, I'm not immediate. my God, it's been four months now and I'm not a star. But yeah, I remember being like, what if I fail? What if I fail out here? And it's all for nothing. First it's like, well,
Yeah, mean, yeah, could say it was definitely you're learning things over here, but it was a well, okay, if I don't make in Chicago, what am I going to do? I can go home and I can come back. You can always come back if you fail. If you are trying to brew and that brewery business is a failure. Well, you can always find a new thing or start again, but that's not the end of the story. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Your story continues after it.
Yeah.
Alex Rembold (44:30)
When pandemic hit, thought that was the end of my improv career. In many ways it was. And improv was my identity. I lost my identity. What do I do? I tried standup. That was not good. I ended that with a guy threatening three of the audience or three of the performers. Like it was a weird thing. And then it was when I walked past the uncommon ground open mic and I heard music and I thought I play, I have some songs written. I should go and play.
Bye.
I saw the butterfly and I went and walked into the, followed that butterfly into that open mic. And that's where I met the most empathetic, kind, collaborative people where when I was up on that stage, when you see a really good musician, you don't think, dang, I want to take them down a peg. think, how can I play with them? And if you see a musician who's struggling, also think I, you know, either
very kindly, how they're working on it. also, for me, also see as like, I see something in them and I still want to work with them. It's collaborative. And so I think that's a spirit that I didn't think I would have back in the pre-due and the old times. I thought I was an improviser. I'm now seeing myself as a different person and my identity changed, but I felt that butterfly.
Yeah, allow yourself to evolve. Values matter of perspective. That's a good thing. Hopefully through therapy and conversations like guiding toward the pervasive persistent belief like my identity is crumbled, I am done. And it's static rather than like, yeah, you're evolving and you can change. Great. It's been delight chatting.
Alex Rembold (46:15)
Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to catch up with you again after so many years.
Mishu Hilmy (46:26)
Before setting you off with a little creative prompt, I just wanted to say thank you for listening to Mischief and Mastry. If you enjoyed the show, please rate it and leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support does mean a lot. Until next time, keep taking care of yourself, your likeness, curiosity, and sense of play. And now for a little Mischief Motivation.
Here's the creative prompt for you if you've stuck around. you enjoy these. a skill, activity, or creative endeavor that you feel little rusty, shaky, insecure in something like playing an instrument, drawing, freestyle, storytelling, poetry, whatever. And spend five minutes practicing it with complete confidence. No self-editing, no second guessing. Invite failure, invite discord, make it sound terrible, clunky, weird, and do it for a few minutes. And then reflect, did your output actually change? How did it feel?
How does the feeling of confidence affect your performance, seeking failure, seeking flaw, going just full throttle? Yeah, that's it. That's the prompt. Just pick an activity and give it a shot. And this is inspired by some ideas rooted in self-efficacy theory by Albert
Robert Bandura.
Okay, hope that's helpful. Hope you enjoy these. And yeah, maybe I feel little insecure about them, but I'm still gonna throw them out there because it's all about doing tiny little things and finding what sticks for you to help you get into a zone of play, the zone of self-efficacy and just creating stuff. All right, I'll see you next time.
Alex Rembold (48:03)
you