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Welcome to Constructing the Carolinas, a show where we explore the growth of our communities, cities, and counties across North Carolina and figure out what's on the horizon. This podcast is brought to you by Barnhill, which has been Constructing the Carolinas since 1949.
Transcript
CtC - Marc and David_mixdown
00:00:04 - Valerie Bono
Welcome to Constructing the Carolinas, a show where we explore the growth of our communities, cities and counties across North Carolina and figure out what's on the horizon. We are brought to you by Barnhill, which has been Constructing the Carolinas since 1949. I'm your host, Valerie Bono, director of Business Development. Today we're talking about what it takes to manage growth at both the and town levels, with two leaders at the heart of it all. David Ellis has been the Wake county manager since 2018, overseeing a county that has seen explosive growth over the past decade. And Mark Collins, who was actually born in Raleigh, has served as the town Manager of Wendell since 2018, leading a community that has nearly tripled in size in just six years. In this episode, we'll get into the nuances of county and municipal collaboration, how they balance infrastructure, economic development, and smart growth, while ensuring each community retains its unique identity. We'll also talk about the challenges of managing rapid expansion, the importance of strategic planning, and maybe even where to grab the best meal in Wendell. If you've ever wondered how local government shaped the places we live, work, and thrive, this episode is for you to start. I asked Mark what a typical day looks like for him.
00:01:23 - Marc Collins
I think a typical day is understanding that change is constant and schedules can change as well. Each day we're a day older, so there's constant change and we get to decide how change impacts us. And so when I look at my time, it's always, how can I make the most impact? Most people would think about the growth or law enforcement or parks and rec and like, how am I working in that space? And really, management's about people. Wendell's a people first organization. And so a lot of my time is spent working with staff and helping develop staff and getting resources to staff and all that means, and then helping communicate and facilitate that. That need with the board. So as a town manager, I'm out on the bridge in between elected officials and community and staff and department heads. And so it's how to facilitate that communication and resource delivery.
00:02:22 - Valerie Bono
Sure.
00:02:24 - David Ellis
So agreeing with Mark, there is no typical day. Usually I come in, I wake up in the morning, I look at my calendar, I'm like, okay, I'm going to do A, B, C, D and E. I get to the office and all of a sudden there's F through Z. And many times the new stuff takes precedent. And so I would say it's. It's being one of the things you have to be flexible and adaptable to your schedule. I probably spend a good portion of My time interfacing with our local board of commissioners, making sure they're aware of what's going on, you know, keeping them abreast of any changing issues and or initiatives, ensuring that our strategic plan is being operationalized. I tend to focus on what's in the future. Right. Because we've, our department heads and others are really taking care of that day to day work. And so part of my job is to have my crystal ball and try to figure out what's coming next and how we can be prepared for that. And so that involves a lot of reading, a lot of conversations, conversations with folks like Mark, conversations with managers outside of North Carolina to get a better understanding of what issues are impacting them. And if there have been some who have gone through kind of the growth that we're seeing here, getting advice on how they've handled things. But it is truly just, you never know what's going to come next. Mondays tend to be a busy day because we'll either have board meetings or. And we'll have work sessions with the board or planning meetings for the board of commission, for the board meetings. And so Mondays are just meeting, meeting, meeting, meeting, meeting. And so one of the things I've tried to do is to take myself out of meetings that I don't necessarily need to be in. And so utilizing our deputy county managers who are very smart, very bright, understand what's going on in the organization and allowing me to do some strategic planning for the next six months, year, two years out.
00:04:28 - Valerie Bono
Sure, yeah. You mentioned learning from other cities and other counties. That was one of the ways you and I had met early on, right? That's right. And we have an inner city trip coming up in a few months to Kansas City. But it's always fascinating to hear what other areas are going through and the challenges they're facing and what are some takeaways and lessons learned that we can bring here in Wake county and to the local municipalities around us. Well, so with that, let's talk about the county and town partnerships a little bit more. What are some of the common misconceptions about how counties and towns collaborate? It seems like this is going to be a good question. And then, you know, what are some of the nuances between planning services in general and then the overall governance?
00:05:13 - David Ellis
So I think so for me, for, for folks who especially have moved from places where the council manager form of government is different or things are set up differently. I remember the first time someone said, well, you're the county manager, you go and tell the municipal Managers what to do. And I was like, it doesn't work like that here. Right. You know, and so. And that's why I was laughing, because it just kind of. What I think what makes the relationship between myself and Mark and the other municipal managers is we respect the work that each of us does. We don't try to tell each other what to do, but we also can have those hard conversations. Adrian Cole always talks about the secret sauce here is collaboration. And I don't think I've worked any place where the. The managers are very collaborative. And as I said, you know, we may not always agree, but we're always searching for what's in the best interest of this community as a whole. And so that would be the one that jumps out at me is people think I have all the authority to kind of do what I'd like, do what I want to do in the county. And getting them to realize that's not.
00:06:25 - Marc Collins
How it works sometimes. It's just understanding that there's a manager in the role of a professional, ethical manager, the CEO of the organization and what role that is versus elected officials. Popular TV and pop culture put forward the drama of policy very well, but they always. They don't often talk about the more boring part of municipal government. A lot of people don't understand that in North Carolina, cities, villages, and towns are all the same thing. Were all municipalities that the term township, which means something in other states, is not really relevant in North Carolina and hasn't been since the Depression. A lot of people think that the county should go out and take care of those roads real quick. That's not a county function. Understanding that counties are more an extension of state services and municipalities are different. We provide a different level of service and more of an urban nature.
00:07:28 - David Ellis
Yeah. And I think, as a one example that I always tell people coming from Virginia to North Carolina, and Mark, I know you probably experience this too. In Virginia, a county is a county. There are no municipalities within a county. Right. And so when I came here, when I first got here, and people were talking about, oh, there are 12 municipalities within Wake County, I was kind of like, what do you mean, there are 12 municipalities? And so just that difference. Right. So when you have people moving from places who have different local government setups, it's hard for people sometimes to understand how and why we're structured in different ways.
00:08:04 - Valerie Bono
Sure. Well, do you think having the 12 municipalities be a part of Wake County? Right. Is. Is that part of the secret sauce and how everybody's marching to the. The same Beat of the drum.
00:08:17 - David Ellis
I believe so. And one of the things that attracted me here is with 12 municipality each. Each municipality has its own character. Right. And that's the beauty of it. Right. So Wendell's not like Raleigh, Raleigh's not like Morrisville. And so it's very distinct. And, you know, you can go from an urban area to a rural area, and you're still within the county. And so I always like to say we have the best of the best here in the county. And I think that's what makes it so special, is, again, we all understand that we are different, but we all understand that it takes all of us to keep the county and the quality of life that we want to keep. It takes all of us working together to make that happen.
00:09:03 - Valerie Bono
Yeah, absolutely. I think something special, right. With all the municipalities continuing on what you said, there really is this own identity. Like, I love going to Wendell, and there's the harvest fest, right, every year. And it's like, it's such a homegrown festival where the community comes together, and it's something that we look forward to every year. But I live in Wake Forest, which is its own, you know, smaller town, and it has its own flavor and feeling. But I think Wake county does such a great job and the local municipalities keeping their identities, I'd say.
00:09:38 - Marc Collins
I think a lot of people think there's a competition of service, and there's not a lot of overlap. It's a lot more collaboration and art. It's understanding that problems are very complex that we deal with. And it really takes all 13 of us to think through complex problems and then go outside of the community. Like David was saying earlier, it's that ability to think broadly and bring your own unique reality to the. The solution, what the solution set for One problem doesn't work in all 13. David's very adept at being able to understand the nuances between different places and help come to a solution. That's one thing.
00:10:23 - David Ellis
I really like working with Wake county as an example. So during COVID the county has responsibility for public health. And so we were working to set up clinics, vaccinations, testing, and we were setting those up with our partners, which are typically medical establishments. And we. Our health department had developed a plan, and, you know, plan looked great. And Mark called me one day. He goes, hey, you know, I appreciate this, but it's not working for us, and here's why. And I said, oh, I got you. And I went back to our folks and said, hey, we need to do something different here. But you know, Mark and I had a relationship where he felt comfortable calling me up and saying, hey, I need you to think about this a little differently so that we can ensure our residents have access to these services and we were able to. To make it happen.
00:11:14 - Valerie Bono
So, yeah, that's fantastic. I mean, where else can you be in America where you can be that collaborative here? And I think that ties back to the secret sauce. But, you know, you have a need with the town of Wendell. You could pick up the phone, call David, and you're customizing the needs based on the local municipality.
00:11:32 - Marc Collins
One, one could argue that our, our Covid response and vaccination rate might have been higher because we did think outside the box and provide resources outside of the typical model used other places. I mean, the development of mobile clinics for testing and vaccine came out of the need to get to less traditional communities around the county that didn't have the institutional partners in place.
00:11:57 - David Ellis
Exactly.
00:11:57 - Valerie Bono
Sure.
00:11:58 - David Ellis
And we're all kind of like nerds. And so I live fairly close to Wendell. So when I go in there and I go to a restaurant or something, I'm like, hey, Mark, I just tried such and such. It was really good, you know, because, you know, I. And not, not just the food was good, but just how the area has developed over time. And I wanted him to know that I really appreciated that in going out there. So.
00:12:21 - Valerie Bono
Yeah. Well, what is one of your favorite food spots in Wendell? That's for both of you?
00:12:29 - David Ellis
I would say probably I'm really loving Parkside.
00:12:33 - Valerie Bono
Okay.
00:12:33 - Marc Collins
Yeah, it's funny because I, I like Parkside, but I'll get them downtown Raleigh to Parkside because their Sunday. Yeah, their Sunday brunch is really good in Wendell right now. I've got a couple go tos. One, one is Falls Local out in Wendell Falls. It's got a good side salad and a small pizza, which is really good. Downtown, probably. Probably go Everest right now. Get a little bit of spice chicken, tandoori or something like that.
00:13:05 - Valerie Bono
Oh, you're making me hungry. I haven't had lunch yet. That sounds delicious.
00:13:08 - David Ellis
We'll get you popped up.
00:13:09 - Valerie Bono
Yeah, that's an inside joke. So moving along, I've got a few other questions. So what factors determine whether an area remains under a county jurisdiction or whether it's incorporated into a town's municipal boundaries? And then what's that process like specifically for the town of Wendell?
00:13:32 - David Ellis
So I will tell you. The county developed a plan wake development, what I call a development tool. And our goal is to try to push development into the municipalities Right. They have the water, they have the infrastructure in place and it allows, it allows for the creation of more density out there. Right. So over time, if you look, the unincorporated area has actually shrunk and that's, that's on purpose. Right. Because we really want folks to kind of be near the services. We think the municipalities do an excellent job. And so we want to continue to partner the plan. Wake tool was developed not in a vacuum just by. With the county, but in collaboration with the municipalities and making sure they were all on board with it. So over time you'll continue to see the unincorporated area shrink and the numbers will go up in the municipalities.
00:14:32 - Marc Collins
Urban. Urban growth boundaries started in North Carolina in the 1980s, actually in Orange County. My dad happened to be part of that, so I know about that one. But so, so what the town looks at is, you know, we work with Wake county on their comprehensive planning. We do our own comprehensive planning. We identify working with Raleigh water where utilities are available and export expect to be expanded to the extension by the state of I87 was, was a signal that that growth was heading in a particular area. The investment of Wake county and Wake Tech and on the eastern side of the county is a big investment on where growth is going to happen. The fact that in Wendell you can get to downtown Raleigh in 15 or 20 minutes and north Hills the same. So that kind of signals where growth is positioned and thought is moving towards over decades. At this point, we also look at what's important in our community and what we need to preserve, what we need to protect. Open space, environmental features. We work closely with the county on making sure that we work to carve those out. Connectivity is very big. The ability to get from one place to another within town and how we're planning for transportation is important. In North Carolina, municipalities have limited ability to determine where we grow anymore. There was a loss of power from the state legislature that dealt with the inability to involuntarily annex. And so when someone comes into the town, it's because someone has submitted an application to be part of town and develop or they need the utilities, water or sewer. And so coming into the town is more market driven today and less planning focused. We plan for the overall area and understand that the market is going to dictate which one happens at what time, depending on who's availing themselves of their personal property rights.
00:16:45 - Valerie Bono
Sure. Well, that's a good segue into the next question around like zoning and just land use in general. So I guess how does Wake county do they influence the zoning and land use policy, specifically within the incorporated municipalities.
00:17:01 - David Ellis
That's a really good question. I. We have conversations, but ultimately that decision is going to be the decision of the municipality. Right. And so. But I believe what we've been able to do is kind of look at kind of a big picture, look at it from a macro standpoint, but also look at it from a micro standpoint and recognizing that the municipalities are going to drive the growth going forward. And so we want to be supportive of them. We want to make sure we're not in conflict with what they're proposing to do. And our planning staff and Mark's planning staff are in constant contact to discuss any issues that may come up. Matter of fact, you have one of our folks, don't you? Your planning director. Yes.
00:17:49 - Marc Collins
Brian Coates is phenomenal.
00:17:51 - David Ellis
I haven't forgotten you.
00:17:51 - Marc Collins
Appreciate that. Yeah. If I can add, I mean, it's more of a collaboration. The county supports our land use decision through funding other measures that are needed with growth. The county's responsible for funding the school system. Growth doesn't happen without new schools. To make sure there's equitable access to education. The funding of the Wake Tech campus is a big driver for East Wake and supports our growth in education. They're a funder of transit in the county. The ability to get to and from your place of work and home or to institutional needs are important. The county is a big driver in EMS and fire services, which are needed to complement the municipal services, parks and open space programs. They're more the open space drivers, the passive recreation, while the municipal services are the traditional recreation programs, housing programs. Making sure that there's places for everybody to live falls under the county. So it's a real partnership in growth and deciding what happens where. Without the county support in those ways, it's a different kind of community. It's a different feel.
00:19:16 - David Ellis
And the EMS situation is quite. You talk about a partnership while the county is responsible for the response as we grow and as we're looking at where we need to put new EMS stations, we're working closely with Mark staff looking at development patterns. Right. Okay, here's where the majority of calls are coming from. Today. We've got a new development that's going to come up. That's 1500 homes. Okay. Where should this new EMS station go? And. Or do we need more than one? Right. And same with some of the fire tax district and making sure we have stations that can respond quickly to the needs of the community. Sure, but. And yeah, even the schools, I mean, that is, you talk about you have county, school system, municipality, all kind of coming together, trying to determine, okay, where's. Where's the growth happening? Where's an appropriate site? Should it be an elementary, middle, high school? And really working together to ensure that there's land available that would support public school. And so that is one of the. One of the things I'm just always amazed at how easily that occurs. Right. Because it could be, you know, Mark could say, I don't want to give. We don't want to give up land for this. Right. But we've been able to kind of work with all the municipalities and the school system to identify sites. The school will purchase the sites, you know, years in advance and allow the growth to occur, and then we build the schools.
00:20:55 - Valerie Bono
Yeah, I'm always impressed with what you all are doing in the sense. I mean, it's. It's almost the chicken and the egg situation, right, where you need the people to have the demand for some of these services, but you have to have the services there for when the people come too. So it's gotta be a fine balancing act, Right. Making sure you're able to support the towns as they grow. Do you have enough schools for students? Right. Because we're in the school space. We often find, okay, by the time we build a school, they already need more space.
00:21:26 - David Ellis
Right. And when you're looking at this, you know, when I first got here, I was in a Converse. I can't remember who I was speaking with. And they said something that made sense that I never thought about. The growth in the county does. It isn't equal across the county. Right. You're, you know, years ago, it was the western part of the county that was really growing. Now it's more of the eastern part of the county that's really growing. And so if, if the county grew equally, it'd be a lot easier to kind of figure this out. But you just. You just have to kind of deal with what's coming in front of you. And we've all known at some point the eastern part of the county would really take off. And that's where we are now.
00:22:02 - Marc Collins
Yes, I believe we were speaking before of. Of growth. And Wendell, six and a half years ago, when I started as manager, the population was around 7,000. Today we're a few months away from being 20,000 residents. Ten years from now, our growth projection is close to 50,000. And so to David's earlier point, as managers, we're not thinking about yesterday unless there's something to learn from it, if we're in today, if it's on fire, it may draw attention. But we're constantly thinking, for me and Wendell, what does the community of 50,000 people need? What are the services? How do we maintain those core services as we scale up to that size? What infrastructure is needed in what place over that time? What strategic partnerships like the county and the school system and DOT and Duke Energy that I need to work with to make sure that all the public utilities and services and resources are in place? How are we identifying and hearing the public about what's important and needs to be protected? It's a very intricate dance and it requires exceptional partnerships and flexibility.
00:23:12 - David Ellis
And I will say watching Mark and others, you know, they are balancing kind of the historical character of a community with new growth. Right. And so balancing that so everyone. So people don't feel like they're being discounted because they may have been there longer or they're not being heard because they're new. And I've always just admire, admired how they balance that, that balanced approach to make everyone feel like they are a part of the community.
00:23:42 - Valerie Bono
Sure. I was having a recent conversation with Kip in Wake Forest and you know, the phrase I used was smart growth. Right. I think we have to be smart about the growth that we want to see. If you go too fast, it may not have the best outcome.
00:23:58 - David Ellis
I, when I took this position, one of the things I said was I don't want this to become like this place to become like Northern Virginia. Right. Where you have to think about on a Sunday what time you're going to go out to the grocery store because you're trying to figure out when traffic is going to be easy for you to get through there. And so, you know, there's a lot of things that we still need to do as a community. I believe we'll get there, but I also believe that all the planning, all the discussions, we will not end up like Northern Virginia.
00:24:30 - Valerie Bono
And we definitely don't want that traffic. I was fascinated in getting on the traffic bit a little bit. I don't know if either of you attended the Chambers Metro series where they were talking about the top 100 metros and some statistics, but did you know that our area, we're the seventh best in commuter times for getting to work.
00:24:55 - Marc Collins
That's a big point that's raised by Wake county economic development. The fact that our two hour drive shed, that's used for, for large economic development projects, it goes out counties almost to the Virginia border. And so, so yeah, that, that is A big factor that the fact that you can live in a Wendell and be in Downtown Raleigh in 15 or 20 minutes, non rush hour now.
00:25:18 - David Ellis
Right? Yeah. I lived, where I lived In Virginia was 20 miles door to door and it was an hour solid. Right. Unless there was an accident. Don't tell anyone this, but I had actually figured out how to read the sports page of the Washington Post while I was sitting in traffic because it's just that slope. But here I live 13 miles and I know every day it's going to be somewhere between 18 and 20 minutes. I can count on that.
00:25:46 - Valerie Bono
So, yeah, that's pretty good.
00:25:48 - David Ellis
Yeah.
00:25:49 - Valerie Bono
Well, so let's talk a little bit more about the growth and development and infrastructure. How do county and town leadership coordinate the overall economic development strategies to ensure and complement each other rather than compete?
00:26:05 - David Ellis
Part of it is we both work with the chamber, right? And the chamber looks at the county big picture, works with our municipalities to make sure to kind of help them understand what can be done to make your community attractive to the types of businesses that are looking to relocate here. And so, so there isn't that competition because as we talked about earlier, each municipality, each municipality has its own characteristic. And so some places are better for you. Look at Holly Springs. Holly Springs has had a lot of growth in the past two years in life sciences. Other parts of the county may not have the tracts of land available for that. So they're looking at other types of economic development projects. And so, you know, it's, it's what, what makes your municipality special for whatever economic development company, that's. Whatever company is going to want to come there.
00:27:06 - Valerie Bono
Sure.
00:27:08 - Marc Collins
Yeah. I would add, you know, Wake county, through the, through the chamber. Wake County Economic Development recently conducted like a preferred site survey across the county. So in Wendell, there are four sites identified in the Wake County Economic Development Site Identification Survey. One of those is actively under construction right now. Two are in the development process and we anticipate the fourth being submitted in the very near future. So there's a. We plan, we revise plans, we implement, we partner with the development community and Wake County Economic Development, the state of North Carolina also, when it comes to economic development, there's a lot of demand to be in our market. The target industries identified by the chamber are the ones looking in Wendell right now. So there's a very exciting future being a, a job creation. The state investment in the interstate, private utilities in natural gas and electricity, the town and city of Raleigh and water and sewer, the county and the community college all create a perfect Environment in East Wake right now for economic development. So it's a very, very bright future of creating job creation.
00:28:29 - David Ellis
And I want to give Mark a lot of credit because sometimes people believe that these economic development projects just happen. Right. There's a lot of work that goes into it. There's a lot of coordination and leadership Mark has to display to make sure that the sites he's discussing are ready to go. When a corporation comes through. That stuff doesn't just happen like that.
00:28:53 - Valerie Bono
Sure. How long would you say the life cycle is on some of those sites? I mean are we talking years, decades to full development?
00:29:04 - Marc Collins
The one under development right now there are companies that want to open in 2026, fall of 2026, which is very aggressive for quarter million square feet facilities. Others may take more time depending on the nature of the business. It's been more of is their product available and ready in Wake county rather than is there demand? The demand is definitely there. There's higher education with the Triangle. I mean it's more of a triangle initiative than county in and of itself. But for Wendell being 15 minutes to NC State or 15, 20 minutes to NC State and having a ready supply of labor to our east that doesn't have to go all the way into the research Triangle park makes it a very good location where you have the, the education and higher degrees also with labor provides a good location for economic development.
00:30:08 - David Ellis
You know, I know you've heard Michael Haley say this, but Michael Haley always talks about the talent in the region and we're talent rich here. I mean when you think about the institutes of higher learning here, you think about, you know, you've got NC State, you've got. I'm going to stop because I want to forget someone but you just have a lot of institutes of higher learning.
00:30:29 - Marc Collins
Central, the fastest growing university in the state system just released lately.
00:30:35 - Valerie Bono
So what other mechanisms exist to coordinate large scale infrastructure projects like roads and utilities and also public transit between Wendell and Wake County?
00:30:48 - David Ellis
Yeah. So I Can you start if you want to start and I'll talk about public transit.
00:30:52 - Marc Collins
So when you get into to roads, the county is a facilitator of conversation. Wake county planning brings all the. All the county planning directors from all the municipalities and county together. They'll. They'll coordinate meetings where they talk about NC540 or other projects of regional impact. So they're a facilitator communication. Counties don't traditionally participate in roads so they do less of that road planning. The state has its state transportation improvement program step that's A statewide program of where they expend on large projects. We have regional planning agencies, metropolitan planning organizations, MPOs that do transportation plannings within our general region here around wake county. And then the town has its own transportation plans and pedestrian plans. The three of those plans coordinate oftentimes in a fast growing place like wendell. We're designing an intersection improvement on two state roads that are currently out in the county's jurisdiction that we anticipate being part of the town in the very near future. Our biggest traffic problem is two state roads in a county jurisdiction right now, but it impacts our municipalities. So how we proactively plan and think through those larger projects and work with the state and regional planning organization is key to make that happen for us. On utility side, we're part of a merger community with the city of raleigh. So we join knightdell, zebulon, garner, wake forest, roseville and zebulon in wendell as part of the raleigh merge system. And so as a merged system, we all meet as a utility advisory board and think through what that system needs with wake county and its one water initiative. We talk with other regional water providers and how they interconnect and talk about what our greater region needs to make sure we can meet the water and sewer needs for growth. And then I'll turn it over to transit.
00:33:04 - David Ellis
So back in 2016, the voters approved attacks for the wake transit plan. And so in the wake transit plan had four big moves to get folks across the county. And it was the big thing back then was rail or commuter rail. And over time, the cost of that has just skyrocketed as you skyrocketed, as you know. But also. So part of the plan was bus rapid transit. And so the city of raleigh is in the process of kind of moving forward on the first bus rapid transit route. We are still, you know, there. You know, when you think about it, you can still take a train from cary to durham if you so choose. And so, you know, how can we enhance that? But we also. One of the things that was built into this plan was how do we make sure that folks can get around in their community, right? And so making sure that we had funds available to try some pilot programs to get folks from in different parts of Wendell to maybe a central spot where if they then wanted to go to downtown Raleigh, we could get them there. And so that was designed, and those types of programs were designed in partnership with the municipalities. To me, that is the. The thing that we still have a lot of work to do. The transit piece, as we continue to grow. You know, we're at one point, almost 1.2 million people right now. I think we're predicted to be at 1.5 million sometime around 20 in the2030s. And so as we continue to grow and people still utilize cars, we have to have alternatives that can get people to and from different places that they will utilize. And so really, the bus rapid transit is going to be our first true test and I think it'll be very successful going forward. But I, I have to give the folks credit. They didn't just think about the big picture of transit, but also how do we move folks around in the communities. And I think that's the big difference we're seeing right now.
00:35:17 - Marc Collins
I agree completely with David. Just in the six, seven years I've been here, the conversations change from circulator, fixed bus routes, circulator routes as the town grows, to micro transit, which is what we're doing now. It's more like an Uber or Lyft kind of model where you pick up the phone and schedule your call, schedule your drive, and it can take you anywhere in East Wake and connect you with the fixed route service. The forward thought of connecting the Knightdale Line bus line out to Wake Tech campus, so that may eventually become an extension of BRT out to an East Wake site like that through Knightdale, creating that corridor. So that future thinking in transit and having that resource of the county has been tremendous.
00:36:03 - Valerie Bono
Yeah, I'm excited to see what it all looks like and the impact it'll have. I know I've spent a lot of time with Joe Malazo and I've heard all the amazing things that he's doing and his team is leading and so I think it's going to pay dividends. Yes, well, talking about growth, so. And I'm glad you mentioned this, David. So Wake county is growing today by 51 people each day. So how does Wendell balance that growth while maintaining the motto and keeping that identity? Small town, big charm.
00:36:35 - Marc Collins
So for, for Wendell, we, we start with our organization being a people first organization. And, and that means lean, leaning into the, and accepting the fact that we're all human, we all make mistakes, but we're going to lean forward and grow together. We're going to show up and listen for each other. And, and so when we do that within the town organization, we foster an environment where people want to work, they want to serve, and then that's reflected back into the service that, that they give to the public. And so as we grow, we're becoming an organization and Employer of choice, much. Much like Wake county, where people want. Want to work for that organization. And when. When you do that, you're attracting people that help maintain that philosophy to your public with that. If. If we're scaling services, maintaining that core service level that Mayor Gray and I often talk about, we need to provide municipal service. Well, reliable, and just knock it out. I mean, we're going to do it just really phenomenally. And when the roads get fixed, the sidewalks get done, the connectivity happens, the parks are built, the police call is made. When all of those personal touches happen on a reliable basis, it builds trust. It builds community. You mentioned the Harvest Festival. We have a number of special events in downtown Wendell. It's like a Norman Rockwell painting on most event days. It's a great sense of community. It's a benefit of having kind of a home court of a national historic district downtown with those structures. Right now, we're finishing up a downtown streetscape plan, and so there'll be future about maintaining the vibrancy of that downtown space into the future. There's some really exciting projects getting ready to happen down in downtown. So it's about maintaining relevance, and relevance starts with listening to your community and the public and understanding what values they have. For Wendell. We kind of buck the trend on the aging. About a third of our population is 19 or younger. 35 to 19 is about another third of the population. So 2/3 of our population is under 35 in Wendell. We're the youth movement in Wake county in a lot of ways. We're very diverse, much like Garner. So we need to make. But we also have senior citizens coming to Wendell. We're growing in everything right now, but we are very young, but we need to be able to hear and listen people on platforms in which they feel included and comfortable. When you have that diversity and you want everybody to feel included, then you really need to lean in to listening and make sure you're showing up on a reliable basis for them.
00:39:30 - Valerie Bono
Yeah, I love that. I think so many people need to hear that. But leaning in, I mean, that's so important to listening to what people want to hear and meeting them where they are. So recognizing, okay, maybe we have a younger demographic. Let's listen to what their needs may be. Let's be on the platforms that they want to stay engaged with.
00:39:48 - Marc Collins
We met at Harvest Festival, where you were able to talk with town leadership at a booth where we had our current projects out and talk about what's happening face to face in that community.
00:39:59 - Valerie Bono
Well, it's so funny so you were mentioning the Harvest Festival, and. Yes, that's exactly when we met. A few years ago, I saw you out there with the town of Wendell Booth, and you were spotlighting some projects you had coming up. And I was probably in the middle of chasing one of my two sons, but I was like, I want to go meet you. And that just meant the world. Just be able to have those conversations and build a relationship right in the community. So I'm glad you remember that, too. All right, well, so let's look at public services and community impact a little bit. I'm curious. How do counties and towns share responsibilities on public safety? Law enforcement. We talked a little bit about fire response times earlier and overall emergency response. And then I'd love to hear some examples of any recent collaborations that have strengthened those services.
00:40:52 - David Ellis
Sure. So the county. The county, from a public safety standpoint, we have. I'll start off with the sheriff's office. Right. And so the sheriff's. Sheriff's office provides a secondary response into the municipalities. The municipal police department will be the first, typically the first on the scene. We also have been charged with operating EMS countywide. And so I would. I will say one of the things that we are doing a much better job of now is looking at building some joint EMS and fire buildings right where we can house both. And so we have a plan to add. Can't remember the exact number, but a number of additional EMS stations and fire stations, especially in the eastern part of the county now, which will allow for better response time along with making sure we're providing the appropriate level of care. Every once in a while, I may get a phone call where someone says, hey, the response time for an EMS call may not have been what they expected. And we will look into it. I'll talk to Mark about it, make sure he understands what occurred. But those are the two big ones. As I think about it from a EMS perspective as well as from a sheriff's perspective. I have been extremely impressed with the collaboration between the police departments and the sheriff's department and how they communicate, keep each other abreast on what's going on. And I don't. I don't think you could ask for a better collaborative out outcome between two public safety organizations from a fire tax district. We work with some of the volunteer fire agencies in terms of providing stations, equipment, things of that nature. We just recently added an additional piece of turnout gear for each firefighter so that, you know, they're making. We're making sure that they can decontaminate their Uniforms once they've gone into a fire and they have something else to change into. And so, you know, we're really listening and we recognize, I think more importantly that we know where the growth is coming thanks to the information we're getting from the municipal departments and making sure that we're planning to add buildings, which means more trucks, which means more people in those communities.
00:43:22 - Marc Collins
Yeah, I'll add in. Sometimes in public safety, the investment that you make has a secondary or tertiary. It's direct for us. But when, when Wake county funds Wake Tech and they, they build a law enforcement response training center, it creates an environment where the Wendell police department have been able to use that facility four times this year and been able to work on how they would enter into some high risk situations that we see happening around the country and world. Having that direct training and experience that close to our municipality is a game changer for Wendell. Not only do our officers get to use that facility as well as officers throughout the eastern United States, but two of our officers are trainers there. So it's the ability to elevate our staff to the next level because of the proximity of a facility like that and use that as a recruitment tool. We do not have, knock on wood right now. We do not have vacancies in our police department. Our last vacancy that just started in January is in the process of being filled right now. A lot of that has to do with the opportunities that Wake county and Wake tac have placed in Wendell. Additionally is the changing nature of both fire and police service with increased building codes, the building community doing a better job at meeting codes and making them less fire prone. There's less fires to put out. A lot more gets into traffic accident response and medical response in fire service these days. So the ability to have different kind of facilities that join those resources is important to David's point. Additionally, police response isn't always law enforcement. They're asked to show up for people that are having a bad day and sometimes that's because they're unhoused. Sometimes it has to do with they're just not happy with themselves or people around them. And the justice system isn't necessarily the only tool that can be used to fix that. Right now there's a partnership with institutions and county social services and mental health on providing people appropriate resources. Increasingly, you're going to see social workers embedded in police departments to be able to respond and provide critical care and displace people from the justice system. Moving forward, those are exciting areas where the counties and municipalities will have the opportunity to partner also with higher education schools of social work. A good example is Sylvan, North Carolina.
00:46:21 - Valerie Bono
Right now, I'm not familiar with that program. Can you elaborate on what they're doing?
00:46:28 - Marc Collins
Yeah. At Western Carolina University, they have a social work program. They brought an intern in for the master's in social work program and wanted to embed with the police department. The police chief, after a little bit of understanding and working through it, said yes to the internship. The social worker rode with the police department, was amazed by the results of just the internship, and hired that social worker full time as a full position. So it's. The social worker gets called out to handle a lot of different calls that aren't necessarily criminal justice calls. It allows your sworn officers to remain on the street to deal with other issues and allows for crisis intervention training by your police officers to appropriately direct people to services they need. And having also for law enforcement and public safety, their suicide rates are twice that. Of the American general population, the number one way that police officers die is suicide. And so having a social worker, a mental health professional embedded in the department is also about investing in your people. Going back to a people first philosophy, we want to take care of our people and know that we want to take care of them.
00:47:56 - Valerie Bono
Yeah. Having a people first philosophy so important and certainly valuable. I'm just curious, you know, from a town's perspective, when you need any additional resources or funding, what does that look like? Are you reaching out? Are you picking up the phone and getting David on speed dial or.
00:48:13 - Marc Collins
I should ask David for money. I mean, we're both going into a budget process now. I think it goes back to. There's not. There's collaboration, but there's not necessarily the financial commitment to each other. Counties have a different funding source than municipalities in a lot of ways. We both rely on our property taxes. They're tied more to, I believe, to state and federal programs than municipalities tend to be, especially at Wendell size. Where we get assistance from them is like during arpa, they provided a. They're providing a grant to the town to convert an old school site into a community center. So they're part of the funding stream to. To make that happen. In the housing program, you. That doesn't happen without county support for us as well as nonprofits. A great example is the town owned a few lots. We partnered with Habitat for Humanity. They're putting in five units. The town's building a greenway and a neighborhood park nearby. The county helped with funding to Habitat for Humanity to build those five houses in the coming years. So there's partnership opportunities that are a little less direct than normal. The transit funding happens. We have a partnership in that where the town led the application and the county helps with funding for the micro transit in East Wake.
00:49:44 - Valerie Bono
Sure. So what role does the county play in public school funding and facility expansion needs and overall long term planning with the town of Wendell and just other municipalities.
00:49:55 - David Ellis
So from a funding standpoint with the school system in this fiscal year, the county provided $702 million for the school in term for operating. Right. But we're also responsible for ensuring the maintenance and oper of the school. So we some of that money goes towards the school's maintenance and operation. We also work with the school system in terms of building new schools. They identify the site, the county, we typically will go out and get a bond and allow them to build a site and also do some repairs. So the I will say this board is in. All the boards that I've been with are significantly supportive of education. And it's not just the Wake county public school system. It starts with kind of Smart Start. The board provides funding for Smart Start to get children into early education, provide funding for Wake county public school system, but also for Wake Tech. So we recognize that that education continuum is extremely important. We work with the municipalities and the school system on identifying sites that may be appropriate for schools, which is some municipalities have grown so fast and they're not large, so it becomes extremely difficult to find an appropriate site for school. I think with Wendell, you know, we also provide funding for libraries. And so we're in the process, we're going to be upgrading the library out there in the next few years. And so really looking at how we can support some of those amenities that bring people to the community and making sure they're appropriate for that community.
00:51:39 - Valerie Bono
We were talking a little bit earlier about workforce and that's a huge challenge industry wide in this area. I'm curious from a county perspective and also from the town's perspective, are there any initiatives going on within the county and the town to help support some of those efforts? I know the community college system's playing a huge role.
00:52:02 - David Ellis
We are at our lowest vacancy rate since we've been tracking. And part of that is we have been similar to Mark, you know, really kind of a people first and building a culture. You know, I was. My goal is to be for my organization is to become an organization of employee of choice. And so we have tried to create a culture that rewards people for the work that they do. We Try to make work fun. The county developed a strategic plan recently. And part of what we did was we wanted to make sure people saw the work that they did in that strategic plan. And so many of our employees participated in groups to help shape the strategic plan. And so we've created something we call Team Wake, which is our employees. And some of our employees have jerseys with Team Wake on there. But I always tell people, I remember when I first started working and I didn't feel like I knew how my role contributed to the overall goal of the organization. And so I want to make sure people understand how important their work is and how their work will impact the organization as well as the community. And so it's personal for me because I believe that in many cases you get what you pay for. And so I always tell our folks, I don't want average employees. I want the very best that we can find. And so we will go out and we'll find the very best. And we want, we create an environment for them to be successful and to see how their work is important.
00:53:43 - Valerie Bono
I love that. And I know you all have fun. I've seen some pictures. I've got, you know, my friend that works with you and it seems like you have a wonderful culture. So I commend you for that. That's great. Well, I know we've had a lot of great things that we've talked about. I do have a few wrap up questions before I let you both go. So for businesses or individuals in the construction industry who want to get involved with both Wake county and the town, what's the best way that they can find more information and just learn about how they can get involved in the county and towns that they live in.
00:54:21 - David Ellis
So from from our perspective, everything we, we build, we are going to put out a solicitation. Right? And so for organizations to, I would say the first thing is to become a county vendor. That way you will receive all of the notifications for projects that are coming forward. Typically we will have a pre bidders meeting where they, where the subject matter experts will talk about the project, answer any questions, and that is probably the best way to find out what's going on. If you, if you watch the budget process, the county and the schools, you'll hear about how many new schools are going to be built in the next few years. And so I believe we have four new schools opening this year. I'm not sure what's coming down the pike, but that is an opportunity to hear what's occurring. If you listen to our Meetings, we will be bringing forward agenda items that talk about the public, the public health building that's being built right now, health and human services building, and some of some other projects that will, I think, excite folks who are leading construction agencies.
00:55:35 - Marc Collins
Likewise, the town, not quite as many or to the scale of larger organizations, but with our growth, we have a number of projects coming on the town website. In our finance department, we continually update the RFQ RFP process that's open and available. Looking at our capital improvement plan and understanding the timing of projects looking forward in jurisdictions is a good way. Reaching out and having a conversation to understand, like what your vendor abilities are. We've done that several times. I also encourage the development community. Just because you submit and aren't selected on one particular project, the number of projects that are in process requires us to use a number of different vendors. We don't have preferential vendors or particular companies of choice. We need to use a large variety and everyone's welcome and open to participate in the process.
00:56:38 - David Ellis
That's an excellent point, Mark. And I think especially with what happened in the western part of the county, a number of construction companies are going to be headed down there to do some work there, which they should be doing. And so there I think there'll be more opportunities for folks who may not have been selected in the past to apply.
00:56:58 - Valerie Bono
Sure. Well, I'd be remiss if I didn't ask our signature question. So this podcast is Constructing the Carolinas. And we love to have a little fun and say if there is anything that you would love to see be constructed here in the Carolinas, and that could be anything at all. What would that be?
00:57:17 - David Ellis
Raising canes.
00:57:19 - Valerie Bono
Raising canes.
00:57:21 - David Ellis
I'm hungry. As you can think.
00:57:25 - Marc Collins
Right now, for me, it would be the county's doing an excellent job on connecting open space to the north and south of Wendell. We have a natural green belt and open space buffer around us. So my biggest dream right now is connecting all that by greenways and just becoming like the central trail hub of central North Carolina. Having something like an Umstead east kind of attraction on the eastern side of the county, in addition to what we have now would be phenomenal. I think we have the right partnership in place to make that happen.
00:58:04 - David Ellis
I think you're right. I remember years ago, someone showed me a proposed map that had all of the open, all of the open space and greenways connected so you could go from one municipality to the other municipality. And I know we're all working on that. It'll take some time, but that will be a thing of beauty when that happens.
00:58:22 - Valerie Bono
Yeah, just one more way that we have connectivity. Well, well, I appreciate both of your time very much. This has been a lot of fun and a lot of great information. Thank you for joining us today.
00:58:35 - David Ellis
Thank you. Now, Mark, are you going to sing a song?
00:58:38 - Marc Collins
Only if you leave. I'll sing back up to you.
00:58:46 - Valerie Bono
A huge thank you to David Ellis and Mark Collins for sharing their insights on what it takes to manage growth in one of the fastest growing regions in the country. It's clear that collaboration between county and municipal leaders is essential to ensuring that Wake county and its towns continue to thrive while maintaining their unique character. And thank you for tuning in to Constructing the Carolinas. Be sure to follow us on your favorite podcast app or on YouTube so you never miss an episode. You can keep up with Barnhill's efforts to build a stronger North Carolina by visiting barnhillcontracting.com and follow us on LinkedIn. This podcast is edited and produced by Walk West. I'm your host, Valerie Bono, reminding you that as we grow and build across the Carolinas, we can lift every community along the way. We'll see you again soon.