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Unashamed Unafraid is a show dedicated to being unashamed about sexual addiction recovery and unafraid of coming unto Christ for healing. Pornography and sexual addiction are not something you are stuck with to manage your whole life. We share real stories of recovery, the best resources, information from experts, and answer anonymous questions with those who know. All to help you on the path of being 100% healed from pornography and sexual addiction.
Sam: Welcome to another
episode of Unashamed, Unafraid.
We are Unashamed of Sexual
Addiction Recovery and Unafraid
of Coming Unto Christ for Healing.
I'm Sam, I'm a guy in recovery.
I'm here with Chris, the Hulk of Hope.
And we've got James with us.
Yep.
James: How you doing, man?
Sam: I'm
doing good.
We're gonna do a special today,
part one of a two part series.
Unashamed of Sexual Addiction
Recovery and Unafraid of
Coming Unto Christ for Healing.
Today, is unashamed of
sexual addiction recovery.
To be unashamed, when you've never
lived that, you don't actually
know what that looks like.
Chris: Right.
Sam: What does it actually look like
to live without shame in recovery?
Or shame of my recovery.
Totally.
James: Well, getting unashamed
period, like when shame has been the
primary driver of much of your life
and your decisions, like to just say
unashamed of sexual addiction recovery.
That is a freaking deep statement.
, Chris: right?
James: And that's a lot of work.
There's ways to be unashamed
of sexual addiction recovery of
like, yeah, I can talk about that.
I'm in it.
But that is not the definition of
unashamed of sexual addiction recovery.
If I just want to become fully
unashamed, that's a whole different
journey than just being unashamed
of my sexual addiction recovery.
Sam: Right.
James: So, which one do
you want to talk about?
Because , if we want to sit and
talk about being unashamed as a
whole, that's like a 30 part series.
Chris: Jeez,
James: man.
You know?
But if we just want to talk about like
unashamed of sexual addiction recovery,
i'm fine with like the way 12
steps are like, Hey, I'm just
going to kind of name this.
Hey, I'm James and I'm an addict or I'm
James and I struggle with the sexual
compulsion or I'm James , I'm just getting
used to saying, Hey, I struggle with this.
Chris: Totally.
James: And that in and of itself is
just getting me used to like admitting.
I have this problem that
I just can't figure out.
Chris: Well, because shame
lives in the isolation.
James: Right.
Chris: And so being unashamed of that
is getting that out and voicing it.
James: Right.
Chris: Because I didn't
voice it to anybody.
Well, yeah, nobody does right
James: at
Chris: the beginning.
Even after, like, when I got caught
for affairs, it still took me six
weeks to even, Mentioned that I had
an issue with porn and masturbation
because of the shame that I felt in that
James: right
Chris: That was the least
of my wife's worries,
James: right?
Chris: And I just
carried the shame in that
and now it's like a whole different
world to live Unashamed in that and
bringing that up and talking about
it and I don't care who I talk to
you about it I'm like, let's go.
Let's talk about yeah, I am part of this
huge podcast and right now I'm talking
about it It's it's it's it's Anybody
that I possibly can and sharing my story
with them because I want people to know
there's hope out there if you live in
isolation, you're gonna have a really damn
hard time getting out of the addiction,
James: right?
And if I mean, if you just go to
the classic Brene Brown, like she's
like, what are the three ingredients
that Shame needs to thrive.
Secrecy, silence, and judgment.
That's a pretty ripe recipe
for generally what people have
going on with their porn usage.
Secrecy, silence, and judgment.
Sam: That is, that, that is shame.
I mean, that's right.
That is so succinctly what you
live in when you live in shame.
She may
Chris: or may not be an expert in that.
James: Might've done some research.
Sam: Yeah.
James: And that's the thing is
societally, that is also true it now
as a society, we're starting actually
to talk about it more than ever.
But for the most part, when it's
about an individual, it still seems
very secret, silent and judgment.
And then when it is discussed as a general
thing out there, there's still often this
judgment and then the secret or silence is
what goes unsaid and all of that, right?
Yeah.
Sam: Yes.
Wow.
That's really well said because I
can go, I can talk on the podcast
all day long, but when I go to church
like the other day I was teaching
a Sunday school lesson, right?
And it was like really good opportunity.
And I hesitated just for a moment because
I was like, boy, to bring up my addiction
right now, we don't do that here.
We don't, we talk about
it at arm's length.
We don't talk about it
right here from the eye.
James: Yeah.
Sam: Yeah.
From the eye.
And I did, and it was
actually super liberating.
And now my whole ward wants to come
talk to me about the whole thing.
Right.
But it's so hard to get there.
James: Oh, it is.
And then at the same time, you have to
watch out for, in therapy, we call it
like you want you can be vulnerable,
but you don't want to be vomiting.
And so now we have to be
boundaried and appropriate when
we do talk about our recovery.
Chris: Yeah,
James: It is inappropriate at times.
Chris: Totally.
James: And Yes, a place of worship isn't
always the right place Sometimes it can be
Chris: the end depending on the
subject that you're talking about
exactly It might come up and be
like great, but like it's my time
James: Potentially in your like
big main congregational meeting
when you have young children there,
Chris: right?
James: That might not be appropriate you
got to be mindful of your audience of
your audience and be respectful of where
they're at I'm fine if people want to
talk about their sexuality in my therapy
office or amongst adults, but , if I've
got young kids, I'm like, hmm, there might
be some things that you're going to say
that aren't age appropriate for my kid.
Sam: Yep.
Right.
James: You know?
Sam: Yeah, that's interesting.
So, I think maybe context
matters a little bit as well.
What do I share and when?
And that's hard for someone who
has lived a life of sexually
compulsive behavior as well.
I'm like, me?
No one ever taught me what it
looks like to be appropriate.
James: Right.
Sam: Right, like I couldn't.
It
James: was either all or nothing.
Yeah.
It was don't talk at all.
Right?
Yeah.
Chris: One of our church leaders, our
stake president, he said, Now don't
let anybody know that this is something
that you guys are struggling with.
James: That was the advice you got.
Chris: Yeah.
There's
James: the all
Unashamed About Sexual Healing. Sam, James, Chris. - 4:6:26, 8:
or
Chris: nothing.
And it turns out I shared it to the world.
James: when you're sharing it between
sessions, the general conference,
Sam: Yeah, totally.
You know, James, we're gonna pivot
here because I love the way that you
said something right at the beginning,
which was that it's very hard to
talk about, and then you stop, you
said, at least at the beginning.
And I love the, you said it that way
because there's a process, there's this
scale, and as you get into recovery
and you start to layer by layer get
rid of the shameful sexual scripts
that you have, puzzle piece by puzzle
piece, you start to actually build
something that feels like you can
share it, like it's safe to share it.
And I don't necessarily know what that
process looks like, but I'm curious if we
can dig into that process a little bit.
James: I actually think I
could probably talk about it.
Frankly, from a little more expertise than
Chris, because I have an opinion about
why Chris can talk about it more readily.
How long you been sober, Chris?
Sam: Eighteen years.
James: That's why Chris can talk about it.
Yeah.
Okay.
Sam: Huh.
James: Why can't you?
When's the last time
you had a relapse, Sam?
I relapsed
Sam: last night.
James: Bingo.
So, yeah, it's huge.
Chris is gonna be like,
there's hope I'm on fire.
People can heal from this.
Right?
He's, he's speaking from
this place of like, I got it.
Sam: Yeah.
James: This is place.
He's confident.
Where are you at?
Sam: Yeah, why can't I talk about it?
Because that's what I felt.
When I'm a month clean
or two weeks clean even.
Even a week clean.
I can talk about it.
James: Right.
Sam: Right.
But if it happened yesterday, I can't
look someone in the eye and say like,
James: What did you feel when I just like,
ah, crap, he's going to ask me right now
how sober I am right here on the show.
Sam: You know, I think I'm past
that actually, but typically
I would have been like, no.
But I'm just finally at this point
now where I'm like, I don't care.
I'm really embracing being
unashamed about, about sobriety.
James: Now, okay, walk
us through your journey.
How'd you get here?
how am I able to look you in the
face and you're, and I'm like,
when's the last time you acted out?
And you're like, last night?
What hit you?
What, did shame hit you?
Chris: No.
James: So, what journey have you gone
on so that you can now talk about that?
Chris: And not go to shame.
James: And not have that go to shame.
Sam: And
James: not want to keep it a secret.
You didn't want to be silent about it.
You're not having a bunch of
judgment about yourself about it.
Sam: That journey started the day
that I told my parents about my
addiction when I was 14 years old.
And it went very poorly.
James: Yeah.
Sam: I was so scared.
I genuinely think that that is the
most scared I've ever been in my life.
And I had to write my dad a note.
Right?
Put it on, like, the chair
next to him or something, and I
ran to my room and he came in.
And we talked about it.
Yeah.
But I couldn't do it.
But as time went on and I started to learn
recovery principles, I started building
a community that was based on emotional
safety, and I had enough good experiences
that my confidence started to build.
And the way that I thought
about this changed.
And I had enough times where
I called a buddy and I was
like, Dude, I just relapsed.
And he was like, Yeah.
Like, I get it.
I hear you.
I love you.
That it be more comfortable when
I started to get out of the shame.
I also have done some, for sure,
some big, big trauma therapy.
Surrounding my sexual shame scripts.
Chris: Yeah
Sam: But there was there was just these
layers I Started to break down these
layers and peel back the onion and I'm
getting very close to the middle now
where I was Way on the outside before
James: know So you had
to just keep facing it.
No longer keep secrets you're sitting here
though on a podcast and anybody in the
world could happen to listen to it Yeah,
and yet you're not ashamed and you're
not feeling the shame of like, yeah I
just have to admit that I'm still on the
thick of this process That I relapsed
last night and that's not hitting you.
So that's different, right?
Yeah, you can be unashamed of your
therapist because your therapist is
super safe You actually don't know
who's listening to you and you don't
know if they're safe to hear it or not
Sam: Yeah, I don't know
what am I missing James
I am having a hard time describing
what has changed inside of
me, even on the podcast.
James: This is where I'm going.
I've watched you change in the
time you've been on this show.
Sam: Yeah.
You know what really changed for me?
Okay.
I'll tell you what changed for me.
This Is it.
we got an email from Troy B.
We
Chris: just had on.
Sam: Yes.
And we just had on last recording, right?
So this will be four weeks ago,
roughly and we had that whole
conversation about sobriety.
And God touched My heart in a way
that he hadn't before and showed
me that I was really ashamed of
talking about how sober I was.
And so I had to have an experience
like that, even with the recovery
that I've been in, you know, I've had
some really good healing experiences.
But , I had to have God, I guess, kind
of release me from the shame of that.
And we talked about it, and there
was some acceptance of the fact
that I am good even when I relapse.
Yeah, it just woke me up.
And the last month or two, I have been
talking to everyone I'm more involved with
unashamed, unafraid than I've ever been.
I go to a business networking group and
I, I'm like, yeah, I'm the guy in recovery
and I run this nonprofit and we do this.
We were at my wife's cousin's
wedding the other day and we
were talking about what I do.
And her grandma said, boy, Jasmine
must be so happy that you've
overcome this in your life.
I looked her on the eye and I said,
I'm still struggling with this, but
I believe that someday I'll be fully
healed, because if you can talk about it
then you can heal.
And her eyes were wide
open . Love that dude.
And then her whole expression changes.
She was just like, wow,
I never would have done that.
Even six months ago, it was crazy.
James: So , how Do our
listeners get where you're at?
Chris: I think the very first thing
is you talked about community, right?
Yeah.
Community is important.
James: Yeah.
Chris: Yeah.
That's a, that's a huge piece is just
being able to be in the community that,
James: that
Chris: you can talk about
James: that.
Right, yeah.
Chris: Yeah.
James: So put together, like string,
string the dots along now for us.
Sam: It starts by
building a good community.
James: Right.
Sam: So, I established, I have
established good safety in my community.
I have built a community of
friends who I can talk to, who are
compassionate, who are understanding.
That still
Chris: love you.
Sam: That still love me.
Even when you act out,
Chris: that still come up
to your heart, and they're
Sam: like, Sam, I don't give a shit.
Like, I still love you.
James: Can we say that on this show?
Sam: Yes, we can.
James: Okay.
Sam: We just can't say the F word.
James: Oh, okay.
I'll just double check it.
Sam: The second piece of that is that
I think that, well, this is what I'm
having a hard time putting together.
Like, I know you know the answer and
you're just waiting for me to say it.
This is, I think this
is what happened to me.
I started experiencing enough safety in my
life, and I started feeling the joy that
comes from having authentic relationships.
That included all of me, not
just the pieces that were
socially acceptable to share.
And as a result of that, I wanted
to share it with other people.
, It means so much to me that I get
to live in a space where I can talk
about it now that I'm just like,
guys, like, this is where it's at.
It's so clearly true to
me that now I don't care.
I don't care.
Like you can judge me
and I just don't care.
And there are moments of weakness
where I get scared again.
I just talked about one on the podcast
maybe three or four months ago.
But I just am getting to this
point where I don't care.
It just feels more authentic
and more helpful and more
myself to just step into that.
No matter the situation.
I've talked about it at church.
I've talked about it
with my wife's family.
I, before I married my
wife, I went to her dad.
Actually, this is right
after we started dating.
And I, and I sat him down and I
said, Hey, David, I want you to
know about my recovery journey.
This is what it's been like.
Here's where I'm at.
Here's what I'm working on.
This is me.
And I promise you, I will
never lie to your daughter.
Because I'm just at that point
where like, I'm not, I'm not, yeah,
I'm not going to, I will not sink
back from the shame because my
life is so much better without it.
That felt really good to say.
Chris: Feelin it.
Yeah.
James: Okay, so, brand new listener.
Just started listening.
This is the first episode he's ever heard.
He's like, I wanna get unashamed.
And I know you talked about
it in pretty big picture.
Do you have?
First step build some community.
Sam: Yeah,
James: okay.
Well, so Refer them to a
podcast about community.
So whatever episode that is.
Sam: Yeah You can go there's we have tons.
James: Yeah
Sam: episodes building community
navigating relationships.
You can learn about that
James: Okay, so you're gonna be
like yeah community is critical.
Sam: Yeah
James: And if he's like, okay, then what
mean And let God guide you from there or
like, uh, what are you gonna tell him?
Sam: Yeah, I would just say start there.
Once, once that becomes a big enough part
of your life and your, your relationships
change enough that you feel it, not just
know it, but you feel it, you'll naturally
James: Safe
Sam: community.
Once you start to experience
that long enough, well enough.
Naturally and instinctively, you will
start to show up differently and it
will matter to you to be unashamed.
It will matter to you to be authentic.
Appropriately, I think being dignified
about it matters, but it will matter.
It will matter because you'll
realize over time that the person
who you are when you're authentic
Is the person who you want to be.
You enjoy being that person more than you
enjoy being the one that's stuck in shame.
James: Yeah, you got to be committed to
being unashamed in that safe community.
Sam: Yeah, and there
will be a lot of times.
Because
James: I've watched people
hide in safe communities.
Yes,
Sam: Yeah, that's a good point.
There will be a lot of times going
from A to Z where You have to face
yourself and challenge the fear.
I've done a lot of scary things, and
I've had a lot of scary conversations.
Chris: The
Sam: fear is just draining
Chris: out of those conversations.
Even amongst us, you've had those
Sam: conversations.
You're like, man, I'm feeling
Chris: shame for this or shame for that.
I don't even want to bring it up.
We sat down for like two hours and talked
about it and all the things, you know.
James: Well that's, and that's
the thing to know about shame.
You never, you know you're in it
when you don't want to talk about it.
When you're like, this
is scary, I'm in fear.
That's probably a good
indicator, shame is here.
Like, that's worth checking out.
Chris: So if you don't have anybody
that is safe for you, find them.
James: Yeah.
Or cultivate it and create it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because you don't just find it
and all of a sudden they're safe.
Like you have to cultivate
Chris: it.
Like I had to cultivate mine
because not many people were.
Back in the day, 18 years ago,
people weren't really talking
about this out in the open.
So I'm like, here we go.
I was scared to death.
James: Yeah.
Chris: Yeah.
Of what the responses were going to be.
James: Yeah.
Same.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Chris: And I was like, okay, here we go.
Now, now I'm giving it to God.
James: I gathered my three best high
school buddies and I'm like, Oh crap.
I just might lose all of my
three best high school buddies.
I might lose my entire safety net
that I have had my whole life.
Here we go.
Chris: And their response was
James: me too.
And then we were off to the races
Chris: and you guys are
all still best friends
James: now we get
Sam: Yeah,
James: we get together
super regularly now, yeah,
Sam: I love it That's what
living on a shame looks like
Any final thoughts Chris James?
Chris: I'd say find your why you
want to be on the shame for it
Not necessarily just sharing your
story, but like, being unashamed
of the sexual addiction recovery.
Why is that important for you?
You know?
Yeah.
, Because for me, it was to
provide hope for someone else.
God had helped me and blessed
me in so many ways to be able to
help me out of this addiction.
I'm like, I want to be
able to help people.
and help them discover,
Hey, they can do this too.
They can get out of this.
And if I can just help one
person, I'm totally down.
If I do this for years and I only
helped one person, , I'm down.
Cause God, God made it to that person, but
God has guided me to thousands of people.
Hulk of Hope.
James: Yeah.
Sam: My why is, I I just knew
that I was someone different
than I was deep in addiction.
I have known that, and
I was not satisfied.
And that why continued to drive me.
It's just like, no, I'm no.
No, so many times that I would just say,
no, I'm not going to live this way.
And uh, that process continued
and, and yeah, I liked that.
I liked that
Chris: idea.
I think, I think it's been
really fun for James and I to
just watch you in your journey.
Sam: Hmm.
Chris: And, like, when you were recording
in the first podcast and you're like,
Oh, frick, man, like, wha You know?
I was so scared.
And even just the same shame that
you felt in that, like, afterwards
and everything and just watching
your journey through all this, even
in the struggles that you still had.
But it's been really cool for me.
I know for me, I can't speak for
James, but it has been really
cool for me to watch you in this
journey, making some changes so that
you can start living a different
lifestyle, a lifestyle of recovery.
James: So I think the why of my
recovery or the why to live unashamed,
Sam and you kind of touched on this.
The sense of freedom I got by living
authentically, that was my why at
first it's hard because it seems
like, I was trying to essentially
live a lot for my wife's validation.
I wanted her to like me.
I wanted her to think I was a good person.
I want people to like me.
I want people in general
to think I'm a good person.
But I had to let go of whatever
everybody else thought.
And just like, if I let go of what
they think, then I just get to be me.
And
the scary part is, and all of that
is what if I'm me and nobody likes
me and nobody likes what they see.
Chris: I love you, James.
James: I know you do.
But to your point, like cultivating
community and like being vulnerable, , you
know, that I just love you false and
all, you know, that I love you false
and all, we can have disagreements or
misunderstandings, but identity and love.
It's never on the line in any of that.
It's always there,
right?
Chris: Yeah.
James: This is what happens when you roll
deep and you get with some folks like.
, I might tick Chris off
to no end or autumn.
Chris: Yeah.
James: But if Autumn's mad at me, I
know Chris doesn't love me any less.
Chris: Nope.
James: And I know I don't
love Chris any less.
I know I will love Chris to my dying day.
Chris: Yep.
James: With all of my soul.
If we drift apart and he moves across
the country, or I do, I will love Chris
till the day he dies till the day I die.
And then I'll love him after I'm dead.
Even better.
But, my love for Chris will never die.
He could act out again.
And go down the spiral.
And all the things.
Chris: Yeah.
James: I will love Chris
till the day I die.
Chris: And I know I can
come to you if I needed to.
James: Likewise.
Chris: Because that love is there.
James: Right.
Chris: And you just
accept me for who I am.
James: Right.
I know I can call Chris anytime.
Chris: Yep.
James: We have tested
those bonds of brotherhood
Chris: and
James: authentically I can be whoever I
am and it might rub Chris the wrong way.
He might get mad.
He might get upset.
I know he will love me throughout it.
Chris: Yep.
James: That we can disagree and that
we will love each other in the end.
That's what will help you get
through in that part of like
I get to authentically be me.
And to have people around you that
can let you authentically be you
and still love you through it.
Oh my gosh.
It's the best thing in the world.
Sam: Yeah.
It feels like something that you
can let go of the post people
to recognize as being like,
. That is worth the journey to me.
James: Yes.
Sam: That is worth all of the scary.
James: There's my why.
It's like, I just want to be you.
Be myself and experience being
loved, flaws and all, as painful
as it might be to be misunderstood
at times, or to disagree at times,
that's painful, but the great thing
is is we can do it because love and
identity never comes into question.
Sam: Well said..
being unashamed is a journey,
and it's a journey worth taking.
It's really fun to be further
into that, though, because this
is really hard to recognize when
you're in the middle of the journey.
And sometimes it's nice to just
see that there's a little bit of
light at the end of the tunnel.
Chris: Yeah.
Sam: Guys, thanks for listening.
Unashamed episodes, and, it's
so fun to just get on here
and , share our hearts with you.
Follow us on social media at
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