Oh My Fraud

Caleb and Greg welcome Kelly Paxton, a former fraud investigator who has worked at both the federal and local level to talk about her career and one of her favorite red collar crime stories.

  • (00:00) - Welcome to Oh My Fraud Podcast
  • (03:47) - Kelly Paxton's Background and Career
  • (06:52) - Kelly's Experience with U.S. Customs
  • (12:18) - Pink Collar Crime and Gender Dynamics
  • (21:42) - Podcasting Journey and Fraudish
  • (23:06) - Favorite Fraud Cases: Lori Eisenberg
  • (35:04) - The Benadryl Plot Unfolds
  • (39:37) - Embezzlement and Lifestyle Creep
  • (54:44) - Sentencing Discrepancies and Legal Insights
  • (01:01:26) - Final Thoughts

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Buy Kelly's Book!
https://www.amazon.com/Embezzlement-Detect-Prevent-Investigate-Pink-Collar/dp/B08QBYKJR1

CONNECT WITH KELLY
https://kellypaxton.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellypaxton
X: https://x.com/pdxcfe

CONNECT WITH THE HOSTS

Greg Kyte, CPA
X: https://twitter.com/gregkyte
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregkyte/

Caleb Newquist
X: https://twitter.com/cnewquist
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/calebnewquist/

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Creators & Guests

Host
Caleb Newquist
Writer l Content at @GustoHQ | Co-host @ohmyfraud | Founding editor @going_concern | Former @CCDedu prof | @JeffSymphony board member | Trying to pay attention.
Host
Greg Kyte, CPA
Mega-pastor of @comedychurch and the de facto worlds greatest accounting cartoonist.
Guest
Kelly Paxton
aka the Pink Collar Crime Expert

What is Oh My Fraud?

"Oh My Fraud" is an irreverent podcast from CPA/comedian Greg Kyte and blogger/former CPA Caleb Newquist.

The two come together to unpack their favorite frauds and explore the circumstances, psychology, and interpersonal dynamics involved. They also fully indulge in victim-blaming the defrauded widows, orphans, infirm and feeble-minded—because who can resist?

If you fancy yourself a trusted advisor—or prefer your true crime with spreadsheets instead of corpses—listen to this show to learn what to watch out for to keep your clients, your firm, and even yourself safe.

There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.

Earmark CPE: If you'd like to earn CPE credit for listening to this episode, visit earmark Cpcomm. Download the app. Take a short quiz and get your CPE certificate. Continuing education has never been so easy. And now on to the episode.

Greg Kyte: Hello and welcome to Oh My Fraud, a true crime podcast where our criminals are going to burn in hell but a minimum security country club type of hell. I'm [00:00:30] Greg Kite.

Caleb Newquist: And I'm Caleb Newquist.

Caleb, uh, before we get into it. Uh, yeah, I'd love to read a listener review real quick. Uh, this is a fun one. It comes from a listener named Clytoneus. Clytoneus says, I love this effing show and wrote it f apostrophe ING. I love that clytoneus. Uh, the quote continues. I watch it for the cursing, but as an accountant, the topics interest me, albeit mildly. Best podcast on [00:01:00] Earth for swear enthusiasts like myself, which I didn't know. That was a genre of podcast, but I love that he categorized us where he did.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, and he gave us five stars.

Greg Kyte: He did? Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. I mean, it's it's nice that he did that. Um, although he was basically saying the fraud cases are kind of meh, but but these. But the swearing is just chef's kiss, you know?

Greg Kyte: Exactly, exactly.

Caleb Newquist: Love it. Yeah. Anyway, so if you like. Oh, my fraud [00:01:30] for the fraud or the swearing or both. Take a minute to write us a review or rate the show. Yeah, it will help more swear enthusiasts. Yeah. On the show, it.

Greg Kyte: Will, it will. And, uh, you know, we love reading reviews on the podcast, too. So if you write one, there's a not a not a, not a small chance that we'll get to yours and put it on the show.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah. No, I mean yeah, yeah. Do your, do your worst or best whatever. You know, whatever you take that to mean and we'll probably get it read. Yeah, [00:02:00] yeah, yeah. One other thing. Before we get into today's episode, we are for hire. If you or your organization needs a fun and engaging and relevant presentation, you're in luck because we do fun and engaging and relevant live presentations.

Greg Kyte: Yeah, maybe your company wants to host a webinar but doesn't want it to suck. We do that. Maybe your conference needs a keynote. We do that too.

Caleb Newquist: And don't worry if you're not a super enthusiast, right? We can clean it up because we're adults. [00:02:30] Yeah. And professionals.

Greg Kyte: Exactly. If you're interested, send us an email at OMG fraud at earmarks. Com uh, and we will let you know about our pricing and availability. Uh, but Caleb, changing subjects. Today's episode. We had the privilege of interviewing Kelly Paxton. Uh, Kelly is a former special agent with US customs, and she hosts her own fraud podcast called fraud ish.

Caleb Newquist: Kelly's had a fascinating career and is pretty unique compared [00:03:00] to our two other fraud investigator interviews Chris Marquette episode 42 and Tracy Conan episode 22. All three of them have been fraud investigators, but all three have had very different careers, which has been really interesting to hear about. But rather than continue talking about it, why don't you just listen to it?

Greg Kyte: And here is our interview with Kelly Paxton. All right. We are here with Kelly Paxton. So [00:03:30] excited to have you on the podcast. Finally. I guess to full disclosure, we tried to interview you once before my computer caught on fire, and so did my hair. And that's why I'm bald and have a new computer now. But, Kelly, welcome back. I guess back to the All My Fraud podcast.

Kelly Paxton: Well thank you. I was like, should I reach out to him and say, I really want to do it again because I had so much fun, so it all worked out.

Greg Kyte: Oh, you had, you had. Well, [00:04:00] my life was just disintegrating. You were like, this is this is a great time. Let's do it again. Awesome.

Caleb Newquist: Greg was Greg was likely beaten himself up needlessly.

Greg Kyte: It was.

Caleb Newquist: There's a lot of self-loathing going on. It was.

Greg Kyte: Although the one thing I do remember is every time I was able to rejoin the interview, I would try my hardest to, like, ask a question that I hoped made it seem like I was still around the whole time, and Caleb informed me that I was not, that that was not the case. The universe.

Caleb Newquist: The universe had other [00:04:30] plans for me.

Greg Kyte: Yeah, the universe that hates me. But. But anyways, Kelly, uh, like I said, welcome back to the podcast. Um, you you are also, you're a fellow podcaster. And not only that, a fellow fraud podcaster. Yes. And we'd love to hear. And and an accountant tell us kind of your origin story. Where'd you grow up? Where'd you go to school? How'd you find accounting? How did you find fraud? How did why did you decide to spend a ridiculous amount of your free time, uh, investing [00:05:00] into something like a podcast? Tell us all that stuff.

Kelly Paxton: Okay, so I'm not an accountant. I just play one. No. Okay. So my dad made me take one accounting class in college. When I told him I wanted to major in international studies. He's like, you have to take an accounting class. I actually liked it. I, I kind of followed my dad into the family business. I was a commodities trader and then stockbroker and bond trader. And long story short, um, we got a client when I was working at kind of a boutique investment firm named [00:05:30] Alan Taylor. Now, this is all public information, so I'm not sharing any secrets. Okay? And I was answering the phones one day, and a special agent from US customs was like, hey, I'm calling from US customs, and we're trying to track down Alan Taylor. And I was like 27, 28 at the time, and I kind of giggled. I was like, oh, is that what we're calling Alan today? Because he'd come into the brokerage firm and most clients really didn't come in. And he had all sorts of stories, and he drove nice cars. And this was back [00:06:00] before Know Your customer. So we were not doing anything illegal. We just figured that Alan probably maybe I'm in Oregon, grew some pot. Okay. And, um, so we, uh, you know, the broker tells Alan, hey, someone's sniffing around, so he immediately pulls his money, and, uh, fast forward, my husband's going to go get his PhD at University of Washington. Shout out to Seattle, Caleb. And, um, I call the US customs agent, and I said I knew Alan was dirty and [00:06:30] I got a job at US customs being a special agent.

Greg Kyte: Oh, that was that was it. You're just like, I knew it. And they were like, we need you. And that was that was the hiring process.

Kelly Paxton: It was they had this thing called schedule A, and if you had certain backgrounds, you could kind of skip through the system a bit. And the special agent in charge really liked my background. And it's a funny story. You know, I don't know if you guys have ever interviewed for like a government position. It is very regimented [00:07:00] and everyone gets asked the same questions because you've got to be fair. Well, the special agent in charge decides he wants to sit into my panel interview. And the recruiter is like, oh, God. And then he's like, I've got a question. And like, you can't do that. So he asked me this question. Well, I answered it right to him. And, you know, I got through the process. But the woman who was in charge, who got me hired, she goes, you know, if you had ducked that [00:07:30] question and he said, you're out, you could have like complained. And I was like, I'm not a government employee. I didn't know there was like panel. So it was kind of it just worked. It really just worked. He liked my financial background. And so I did a lot of money laundering cases.

Greg Kyte: Okay. Did you enjoy did you enjoy working for U.S. US customs.

Kelly Paxton: Oh my God. I got paid to play. I got to chase cars. I got to do surveillance. I got to look in people's bank records. That was Christmas. When I got bank records. That was [00:08:00] Christmas, I would say.

Caleb Newquist: So can I just stop for a second? You said. You said surveillance. Like, were you doing stakeouts?

Kelly Paxton: Oh, yeah.

Caleb Newquist: Oh, wow.

Kelly Paxton: Wiretaps and. Oh, yeah.

Caleb Newquist: Oh, man. So, like you were you were. You were in a windowless van with a bunch of equipment on the inside and, like, listening to people, and it's like, well.

Kelly Paxton: I did that.

Caleb Newquist: Drinking, drinking bad coffee.

Kelly Paxton: Yeah, I did that. But then also, you put two women in a Honda Accord, [00:08:30] and no one's going to think anything's weird about it. You put two men in a Ford Focus and they're like cops. Like, yeah, nice.

Greg Kyte: That's cool.

Caleb Newquist: That's true.

Kelly Paxton: So.

Greg Kyte: Right.

Kelly Paxton: It was just a blast.

Greg Kyte: Two dudes. Two dudes is like, this is something fishy. Two ladies is like, girls night, I guess. Yeah. Yeah.

Kelly Paxton: Like, truly. Like, you know, throw a baby seat in the back and they're like, oh, she doesn't have a gun. No way.

Caleb Newquist: No way. She's packing.

Greg Kyte: Oh no way. But. But [00:09:00] also you were packing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. That's just part of the job. So you were like, hey, I knew that guy was was dirty, and they just tossed you a gun and said, here's your here's a Honda Accord and here's your partner. You know how.

Caleb Newquist: To handle one of.

Greg Kyte: These.

Kelly Paxton: So I had never touched a gun until I went to the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glynco, Georgia. We were not a gun family. Like, not at all. And I actually really liked shooting. It was [00:09:30] a lot of fun. And I'm good at it. Like, right. Nice. You know? Um, so it was fun.

Greg Kyte: I'm not a gun guy. I didn't grow up a gun guy. But I live in Utah, so state law requires me to have five scattered throughout my home. It's just where I live. So one of the one of the one of the things that happens in a red state. I guess you guys wouldn't know about that.

Caleb Newquist: I actually Colorado Colorado is, uh, is one of those weird places where it, uh, there's a lot of how [00:10:00] do I put this delicately?

Greg Kyte: Weirdos. I'll say.

Caleb Newquist: It. Well, yeah, sure, there's a lot of. So. Yeah, if you want to see if there's. There's lots of loony lefties here, but everyone's armed to the teeth. It's a very strange. It's a very strange place.

Greg Kyte: Well armed snowflakes. Yes.

Caleb Newquist: Exactly.

Greg Kyte: Perfect. Awesome. So okay, so you're at the US Customs Department, but then. Well, and I guess that's the whole. That's all you're doing. Money laundering. You're investigating fraud. That's where the love of fraud came from.

Kelly Paxton: Yeah, yeah. So I arrested [00:10:30] bad guys, your typical bad guys, drug dealers, money launderers, pedophiles. And then my husband finishes his PhD, gets a job in Wisconsin with no border. And, you know, customs is all about the borders.

Greg Kyte: Yeah, and.

Kelly Paxton: Pregnant with our second kid, I'm like, okay, I'm going to stay home. I stayed home for three years and almost lost my mind. Um, so then I started to do background investigations for the Office of Personnel Management and Homeland Security. And then my husband gets a job [00:11:00] back in Oregon, and I go to work at a local sheriff's office, and I get my CFA, my certified fraud examiner license, and I become their fraud analyst. So I go from arresting bad guys to doing backgrounds and the background investigations are really fun. Like I love doing them. You're driving all over the state, you're knocking on doors, you're chit chatting with people. Um, so come home to Oregon, go to the sheriff's office, and I start working embezzlement cases. All my suspects [00:11:30] are women except for one man. And I say he stole like a woman. And there are differences between men and women. Like. I mean, I don't know why this is controversial. Men and women are just different. We are um. So women steel less women kind of steel for a sort of family reason. They don't steel to buy a Lambo. They steel to upgrade to a Camry from a Corolla. Um, so I googled the [00:12:00] term women Embezzlers and I come across Kathleen Daly and her paper in 1989 that has the term pink collar crime.

Greg Kyte: Okay.

Kelly Paxton: And so it is all about position, not gender. 90% of bookkeepers in this country, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, are women. So it's just women have access. And we underestimate women like we [00:12:30] just do. It's like, oh, she's not smart enough to steal from me. She's going to rob you blind.

Greg Kyte: Is that do you think that's that's that's legit the mindset. Oh, yeah. Well that's gross. Yeah. So it is. Yeah. For sure, for sure. Um, I, you know, from the cases that we look at all the time, um, two of the things that that, uh, that lend to someone turning into a criminal, uh, is, is trust [00:13:00] and being really good at what you do. Like, we're, we're surprised how many times we really look into a particular person who committed a fraud. And their backstory is they were amazing at their job. They were just. And so and and obviously, being amazing at your job is one of the things that earns you trust. But but you can also be amazing at what you do. And people are just like, I don't trust that person at all. Um, do you feel do you do you feel like those? I guess in [00:13:30] my mind, I'm starting to connect some dots and go, I could see where, uh, you know, you've got you've got women who are amazing at what they do. I mean, sort of the opposite. What you just said, because I, I work with I have worked and do work with lots of women who are often, or should I even say usually better than me at what? At what, at what I do. And also I would say, I guess it's more speaking to my therapists that I've had over the years. It's a lot easier to trust [00:14:00] for me to trust women than it is to trust men. Do you think, how do you think gender falls into the the competency and the and the and the trust ability kind of factors?

Kelly Paxton: So I'm also known as the fraud hashtag Queen. And it came it was very organic back when Twitter was Twitter and we liked it. I wanted to keep track of the stories that I was posting. So I started hashtagging Pink Collar Crime and then trust but verify and then its position, not gender. Um, the [00:14:30] I get Google alerts on every night before I go to bed, and I have only had one victim tell me he did not trust the woman who stole from him. They all like the woman. They had them in their home. They considered them family sometimes. And then the guy was like, I never trusted her. So I didn't give her access to my checking account. And I was like, yeah, but you gave her access to your visa card machine, and she stole $450,000. Oh my.

Greg Kyte: Gosh. Okay, so.

Kelly Paxton: They [00:15:00] like them. And it's like, you know, we just we're socialized. Like, when you okay? Caleb or Greg, when you were little, did your parents or kids, you're at the mall. If you get lost and you see a bad guy run, scream and run. Find the nice lady. She'll help you.

Greg Kyte: I don't I don't remember my mom specifically coaching me to to find the nice [00:15:30] lady, but it also, I think I would naturally have done that anyways, that. Yeah, the the the ladies seem safe and seem nice. Yeah. So, yeah.

Kelly Paxton: Even if they're wearing pink.

Greg Kyte: Yeah, maybe. Especially if they're wearing pink.

Kelly Paxton: So yeah, we have this, like, you know, I don't want to normalize embezzlement, but, like, we need people to talk about it when they've been ripped off. Yeah. I have this whole thing, like a long time [00:16:00] ago when there was a sexual abuse case, they would put the victim on the stand and say, what were you wearing? Oh, like they were blaming it on her, right? Another one of my hashtags is no victim shaming. If we make victims feel bad that they got ripped off, they won't go to law enforcement. And they say only 15% of embezzlement cases go to law enforcement. People are embarrassed. And when master of the universe barbarian at the gate has [00:16:30] to tell his guys friends at the private golf club. Oh, yeah, Gladys stole $1 million from me. He's embarrassed. They're like, dude, how stupid can you be? No, we can't do that. Gladys is smart. Like, she just is. And you just don't pay attention to her.

Greg Kyte: Yeah. We do. Are you. Are you aware that we very much like to relish in victim blaming on our podcast? Yes, I am. I am.

Kelly Paxton: I know, you know what? [00:17:00] Yeah. Oh, you know who I victim? Shame all victim. Shame them all day long. Is all the Theranos investors? Okay. Those people all day long will I victim shame the plumbing company owner? No, I will not. Okay.

Greg Kyte: Because I think for us, it's more, um. Because we we're always talking about internal controls that could have been better. And and really, if you follow internal controls, that's really victim blaming right there. Victim blaming and victim shaming is it's like you I mean, kind of [00:17:30] like, you know, I didn't trust her, so I didn't give her my, my checking account. And it's like, but you did give her access to your your visa machine. So it's kind of the same thing where it's like, I think part of our education side of what we're doing is, is very much saying there are things you can do to try to minimize being a victim. And I think we just prefer to categorize that as we're not.

Caleb Newquist: Attacking people, but we're not attacking people. We're attacking internal controls.

Greg Kyte: Sometimes we're attacking the people. There's times.

Kelly Paxton: So I have this [00:18:00] surprise and delight and look at the pink color. This is um, Pat Bruder from, uh, Idaho Private Investigators Association gave it to me after I did a presentation. I was at a party last night. And there's a guy he's a master of the universe, you know, very successful. He finds out what I do, and he's like, so I could see how they could steal on, like, the incoming money side. But how do they steal on the outgoing side? And I'm like, do you have [00:18:30] vendors? You pay rent, you pay. And he's like, yeah. And I'm like, surprise and delight. So if you only look at checks over 5000, pull one for 500. If you look at, you know, vendors like, you know, call them up, see when they were started, stuff like that. So I don't want to victim shame. But I also tell people it's like these people are smart. Yeah. Like I had a I had a friend whose husband was very successful. [00:19:00] They're both very successful now, an ex-husband. And when he met me, he said, I'll never have to hire you. And I'm like, oh, why is that? And he's like, look at me. You're at my beach million dollar house. I'm very successful. Um, and look at me. I'm scary. No one's going to steal from me. Guess who got ripped off?

Greg Kyte: Yeah. Nice. Pride comes before the fall. There you go. You got it. I have actually look at this bracelet I have over here, I misplaced it, it says pride. If I had my bracelet, it says pride [00:19:30] comes before the fall. I don't know where somebody moved it or something. So. Well, let's. So how'd you get started? Podcasting about fraud.

Kelly Paxton: So, um, I went as a member of the National Speakers Association, and I went to their annual conference called influence, and I saw a guy talk about podcasts, and I was like, huh, that's interesting. So I came home and my virtual assistant is like, you need to make money. Podcasts don't make you money. Like it's going to take a while. It's still taking a while. Um, [00:20:00] so then Covid happened and I'm like, I'm stuck inside. I'm gonna. I was on great Women in Compliance, and one day I'm out running and I'm kind of like, I'm going to do great women in fraud. So at first started out as great women in fraud, and once in a while I'd have great dudes in fraud. Greg, you were on the podcast. Um, but then last summer I rebranded to fraud ish because I didn't I want, I want the whole universe of people to and not to self-select. So I [00:20:30] love my podcast. It's like a passion project. I just got an email today from a guy who just said, I just found your podcast, I loved it, he wants to get into the field. And yeah, so I have fraud professionals, I have fraud victims, I have fraudsters.

Greg Kyte: There you go. Cool. That's fantastic. So the other thing we really that I'm really excited about because because you you prepped us on this already is I want to as a, as a fellow fraud podcaster, I have a handful of my [00:21:00] favorite frauds that we've ever covered on the podcast. And I asked you if you had if you had some favorite frauds and and one of one of the two that you brought up and this I we likely we're going to spend the whole rest of the time just talking about this is the case of Lori Eisenberg, who's from Idaho, who was please tell us everything about the Lori Eisenberg fraud, which also, I guess, to even prep prep everyone. Caleb, were you able to look over this fraud before we got here today? Awesome. This is one because we always talk about how we're, [00:21:30] you know, we're a true crime podcast, but but, uh, there's not really murder with ours. It's more our people are still evil but don't actually hack bodies. And and I guess the teaser is this one's got both, uh, both white collar and just a brutal murder in it as well, which makes it so wonderful.

Kelly Paxton: Yeah. So this is technically a red collar crime.

Greg Kyte: Okay. Does define.

Kelly Paxton: Red.

Greg Kyte: I've never heard of red collar crime. Does that mean there's blood involved? Involved?

Kelly Paxton: Oh, [00:22:00] you guys gotta get Frank Perry on your on your podcast. Okay. He has a book. I mean, huge book. I pull it out, but then you'd see my bottom half, and you don't need to, um, called Red Collar Crime. And he actually coined the term with, um, Rich Brodie, red collar crime. When a financial crime turns deadly. Okay. He's a lawyer and a CPA. He's fantastic. He is my highest downloaded podcast on fraud ish. Nice. Um. He's great. So yeah, when a financial [00:22:30] crime turns deadly, it becomes red collar crime. So there's a whole rainbow of crimes.

Greg Kyte: Right? Pink collar crime? Yeah. White collar.

Kelly Paxton: Crime. Color crime. There's. Yep, yep.

Greg Kyte: Great. Great. Great color. Is that. Is that like elder? Yeah. Maybe not elder. Fraud. But when the elders commit the fraud. Yep. Nice.

Kelly Paxton: Yeah, yeah. A whole rainbow of fraud. Yeah. So Laurie Eisenberg. Um, and there's, like. [00:23:00] I don't know if you want to put it in the show notes. There's a dateline about her. There's, um, a podcast. Oh, gosh, I'm forgetting a snapped women who murder. That's a thing. They've got lots of episodes, and I was going through the Wikipedia episodes. A lot of them are tied to money. You know, I hate to say it. I don't want to say money is the root of all evil. Do you guys think money is the root of all evil?

Greg Kyte: Uh, I don't, I don't. Uh.

Kelly Paxton: Caleb.

Greg Kyte: It's the root [00:23:30] of a lot of evil. I will, I'll definitely concede that. But, yeah, I think I think I could find some evil that was, uh, that was, uh, that the, uh, the motivation was not necessarily money.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, I'd say I that's that's well said, Greg, I don't know if it's all but.

Greg Kyte: But also you're, you're talking to two accountants who are like all we're really leaning into the all side of things, like 100% with it.

Kelly Paxton: So I like to say that money is the root of very [00:24:00] many bad decisions.

Greg Kyte: Okay. Yeah. I'm on I'm 100% on board there.

Kelly Paxton: Yeah, yeah. So Lori Eisenberg made a lot of really bad decisions. So um, and I was listening to snapped. Uh, Women Who Murder. And I remember when this story came out like it was it's not very old. It happened in 2018, but she had been stealing for three years. So she gets, you know, the gig is up.

Greg Kyte: Yeah. And and and again, thinking back to like, [00:24:30] some stats from the ACF, uh, you know, the media, it seems like the median length for frauds is somewhere around a year and a half. So she was she wasn't she wasn't one of the ridiculously long fraudsters. But she was definitely on the, on the higher end of of of length for fraud. Yeah.

Kelly Paxton: Yeah. So, um, she lives in Coeur d'Alene, uh, also known as the Panhandle of Idaho. And, um, she is the executive director of a nonprofit. Now, like, when [00:25:00] I was at this party last night, this guy is like. So do you maybe want to join our nonprofit? And the first thing I said is, do you have no insurance? Because I won't join a nonprofit without it.

Greg Kyte: What's no insurance?

Kelly Paxton: Directors and officers.

Greg Kyte: Okay. And it's specifically sued, okay. They're going.

Kelly Paxton: To protect.

Greg Kyte: You. Okay. Gotcha. So it's not because I know that there's insurance that you can take out to make sure, like if for employee embezzlement, insurance basically [00:25:30] is what it is.

Kelly Paxton: Like fidelity. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: Yeah, yeah. So but this is different. No. Insurance is different. Yeah.

Kelly Paxton: Like, you know, all big companies have it for their boards. Okay. Um, you wouldn't join it. So she's running. She's an executive director of a nonprofit that provides housing for low income people. Okay. And, um, she starts stealing. And as you guys know, they don't steal one check for $750,000. It's like it's little and it starts hockey sticking.

Greg Kyte: Yeah. Yep. [00:26:00]

Kelly Paxton: So, um, she knows the gig is up, and she decides in February to take her husband out on the boat. It's cold in Idaho, northern Idaho, in February. Um, and there's a 911 call, and she says, my husband, I think he's had a stroke. He's fallen off the boat. I can't help, help. And you know, you hear the whole. 911 call. And, um.

Greg Kyte: Was it convincing? [00:26:30]

Kelly Paxton: I mean, yeah.

Greg Kyte: In hindsight, maybe not.

Kelly Paxton: Yeah, in hindsight, maybe not. So, um, she, uh. That morning, the story drops in the paper that she's busted. Or, you know, she's under investigation for stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Greg Kyte: Yeah.

Kelly Paxton: And, gee, her husband never found out because he fell off the boat. Well, long story short, his [00:27:00] body eventually gets recovered, and he has an obscene amount of Benadryl in his system.

Greg Kyte: For those, you know, for those February allergies.

Kelly Paxton: I haven't even thought about that. Yeah. February allergies. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: Um, it's it's rough. I mean, really, with everything blooming in Coeur d'Alene in February. In February, we really get a stuffy nose.

Kelly Paxton: So, you know, crazy long story. She uses her daughters [00:27:30] to steal. She's uses her husband to name to steal. Um, she becomes a fugitive for four months. And you know, this is a woman who, uh, I'm not going to say looks like me, but, like, is my demographic. She's older, but my demographic, she's not poor. She's not Uber rich. Um, but she likes the lifestyle. And apparently, her husband was very frugal. Okay. There's a whole, like, story of him that he wanted a motorcycle, [00:28:00] and he was never going to go in debt. He would only pay cash. Well, their lifestyle required a lot more cash than he thought. Okay. So. And the numbers that they say she embezzled is anywhere from like, 500 to 1000 to, like, 2.5 million. The numbers are kind of crazy. Yeah. So she is in prison 30 years. Um, parole only after 30. And that'd be she'd be like 95. And then she gets another five years for financial crimes. [00:28:30] So she's not getting out of prison.

Greg Kyte: Right?

Kelly Paxton: But she took an Alford plea, and she said, um, you know, an Alford plea is such that if you were to go to trial, maybe they'd find you guilty. So I'm just going to take an Alford plea. She said she was going to drink the Kool-Aid and he accidentally grabbed it instead. So she was going to commit suicide on the boat.

Greg Kyte: Okay, so she had. So she had, like, uh, like, like legit. Like [00:29:00] she had put. Did he drink something with with. Yeah.

Kelly Paxton: Yeah. With the.

Greg Kyte: Benadryl. Okay. So so she's saying she's saying that she, like, made a Benadryl, a a lethal dose Benadryl cocktail. And she was gonna she was going to chug it because she was afraid her husband was going to find out about her stealing the money. But instead, she's. She's, uh. She's back unmooring the boat, and he's like, I'm thirsty. This looks tasty. And he [00:29:30] chugs the Benadryl, the the Benadryl and, uh, Mountain Dew. I'm assuming that's. Yeah. That's, uh, because that's really what pairs best with Benadryl. I don't know if you guys know that. Um, yeah. So that that was her story.

Kelly Paxton: That was her story. Um, now, and I think I think I heard that, like, she fell asleep and he drank it while she was asleep. Well, it's like, okay, who's going to fall asleep on a boat? And Caudal Lake, Coeur d'Alene or Coeur d'Alene Lake when it's probably 20 degrees out right now.

Greg Kyte: And who's who's going to be able to take a [00:30:00] nap when you're about to take your own life? I would think your adrenaline would probably kick in a little bit, if that's your plan. I mean, mine would. I'd have a hard time resting if I'm going. Today is the last day. I'm fine. It's finally over. But you know what I'm gonna catch?

Caleb Newquist: I'm gonna catch some shut eye before I really catch some shut eye.

Greg Kyte: Right. Right.

Kelly Paxton: Well. And, um. The funny. Not funny. Um, so they had been to Florida, and he called his doctor after Florida because he's like, I just [00:30:30] was. One day I was dizzy, and I couldn't. Something was wrong with me. So he, like, made a doctor's appointment. Well, you know, we love forensics, especially when it comes to digital. She had, like, googled, you know, how to. What did I put down? She googled, like, um, you know, how to kill someone using Benadryl or something like that. Like her. Her digital trail was not good for her. Oh, boy. Let's just say it wasn't good for her. So. And he went out.

Greg Kyte: How [00:31:00] to kill my husband, whose last name is Eisenberg, using Benadryl or some other similar substance. That's. Yeah.

Kelly Paxton: So that's how.

Greg Kyte: It's kind of a red flag.

Kelly Paxton: She kind of failed the first time. Yeah. Like they alluded to the fact that she tried it once and it didn't work. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: Did they? Were they was it the same idea? Did she take him out on a boat and try.

Kelly Paxton: To give him. Oh, yeah. Really? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So she was getting desperate.

Greg Kyte: Okay, [00:31:30] so. So in terms of the murder, which which I'm very interested.

Kelly Paxton: In.

Greg Kyte: What do you like? Do you think she was just trying because I didn't. I mean, I don't know enough about Benadryl can, but I assume any anything that's like a higher classification than vitamin C, I assume you can overdose on it. Is that is that kind of was that kind of the idea with Benadryl is you take enough and they get so. Because I do take Benadryl sometimes just to fall asleep at night. [00:32:00] Um, and and from what I understand, it's, you know, diphenhydramine is what Benadryl is. And that's like, the main ingredient in most, uh, over-the-counter sleep aids. Um, so I assume with a sleeping pill, you take too much, you sleep forever. Is that so? So you think that was the plan, or was the plan to make him sleepy enough to to hip check him into the into the water.

Kelly Paxton: And the boat? If the water is so cold, he wouldn't have lasted.

Greg Kyte: Okay. So you think the whole the whole thing was, I'll get you sleepy and then I'll. That'll make it. You [00:32:30] drown faster.

Kelly Paxton: Yeah, probably. I mean, I don't have a murderer's mentality, right? So. But, you know, you get really woozy and then you could just fall off the boat. And then I did hear a cop say, like the the time you spend in that water in February, you're going to. And you can't swim because you're all woozy.

Greg Kyte: Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: It won't take it. Won't take long.

Kelly Paxton: Yeah. Yeah. He probably didn't have on a life jacket either. She probably was like, oh, honey, let me tighten that for you and rips it off of them [00:33:00] or I don't know.

Greg Kyte: Right, right. Yeah. Um. Do you. And then with the Alfred's plea, one of my, uh, understandings of that is that the motivation for someone to to use that plea is to, to avoid going to court. So there's so everything that so you're never actually charged with the crime. So there's at least you can you know you can maybe still gaslight people into thinking that you're a good person. Is that. And and a [00:33:30] lot of the details are never going to come out because it never went to court. Is that is that correct with Alfred's plea?

Kelly Paxton: Yeah. The Alford plea is such that. Yeah. Like you think you do it because you think a jury will find you guilty and you don't have to go through it. Now. They had kids, he had kids, they had kids. Um, and she also her daughters did get probation because apparently it was shown that, you know, they knew the money wasn't legitimate, so they only got probation. But, I mean, if you're going to [00:34:00] you've killed your husband and everyone you know, the podcast starts off with, like, I just guess I never knew my neighbor. Like, they had a very loving relationship. It was their second marriage. Um, you know, people didn't didn't expect it. That's why I like my world changed when I went from arresting bad guys to having, you know, nice women who look like me, who I'd go out to tea or happy hour with. And they're getting arrested for stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars. We have an idea [00:34:30] of what criminals look like, and they don't look like us, right.

Greg Kyte: Which is weird, because I do. That was one thing just from my brief read of one article that she sent over. I do remember that in there that that these I get it somehow. They had a reputation of these guys have been married for I don't know what it was ten, 15 years, something like that.

Kelly Paxton: Like 17, I think. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: And it's like, and they're still in love. Like the day they said I do. That was kind of the impression I got from the article. Um, I just, [00:35:00] I mean, this is just gossip at this point, but do you, do you think was she just a sociopath? And maybe, I mean, what do you. Was she faking all that? Do you think that that part was real? Do you think that. Yeah, because I don't know how. And again, if you're if you're that good of an actor to make the whole community think you guys are just madly in love, and then you hip check your husband into the icy cold Coeur d'Alene River or wherever they were. Um, you know, [00:35:30] that's obviously, I guess, not the case. What? How do you how does your brain reconcile all that stuff.

Kelly Paxton: Or does it? I used to do background investigations for the feds. Yeah, it is a look in time. That's it. And then, you know, feds get re backgrounded. Every five years, life changes. So between your, you know, you get your background done and then I don't know your spouse leaves you you find another boyfriend [00:36:00] girlfriend like life changes. It doesn't stay the same. And like you know, we hope it doesn't veer off too much. But she didn't steal. We are unaware of if she stole. I don't know where she worked before, but like, you know, do I think Bernie Madoff at age five said, I want to run the biggest Ponzi ever? I don't think he did what I think stuff happens and then people just stay on that road. Yeah, other people come back.

Greg Kyte: Which makes me sad. Now that you say that, I really [00:36:30] wish that I had prepped my daughter on Career Day to say I would like to eventually run a Ponzi scheme that will eclipse Bernie Madoff. So I feel like I missed an opportunity as a parent. But but regardless. Go on. I'm sorry I interrupted.

Kelly Paxton: No, no, no. So, you know, things happen, people change. You know, I good people do bad things. Bad people do good things. Like, you just don't stay in your lane forever. Yeah. Um, did she steal before? I don't know, okay. Now, [00:37:00] I do have a thing anecdotally, in embezzlement, if they steal within six months of starting a job. They stole the place. Big Four. Okay, that's.

Caleb Newquist: Just.

Kelly Paxton: Anecdotal.

Greg Kyte: Yeah, no, that that I would I'd be on board with that.

Caleb Newquist: That that feels like a good hunch. Yeah, yeah.

Kelly Paxton: Yeah, I had someone. When I say I worked at the shoe company and, you know, she stole. And I said to the detective who I used to work at, you know, that sheriff's office, and I said she stole before he goes, she's clean. [00:37:30] And I was like, dude, she might look clean, but look at her work history and look where she worked. They don't have a good tone at the top. And he's like, she's clean. And then, of course, I go on to my statistics of only 15% of embezzlement cases get turned into law enforcement. Right. And it's like, uh, you know, so, um, if someone steals straight away, they've done it before. Right.

Greg Kyte: But but she had been at this. But you're saying it's that's that's up for. It's hard to say because [00:38:00] she had been the director of this nonprofit for much longer than the three years that she was stealing. Is that. Yeah.

Kelly Paxton: I'm not exactly. I'm not exactly sure how long she had been there, but, like. Yeah. So she was 67, I think, when this happened. That's the other thing. Like kind of gray collar crime. We expect when you hit 60 plus something, you you retire, you live on Social Security. You got your hopefully a 401 (K) that's healthy or, God forbid, a pension. And you know what they say because I'm in that [00:38:30] age range. You've got the go go years. You got the slow go years and you got the no go. Okay. And so people think they retire and their expenses are going to go way down. But I mean I've got a lot of friends and their expenses are not way down. They're like, we're traveling because we can we're moving. And you know, they had, I think 15 grandchildren. That's 15 birthdays a year. You got to go have presents for them. And like, yeah, we think life gets cheaper. Oh you don't have to drive to work. You don't have to have [00:39:00] work clothes. Well you got to go to the Dolomites. You got to go, you know, take a river cruise. Um, it's keeping up with the Joneses.

Greg Kyte: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kelly Paxton: So I think she liked the nicer lifestyle, and I think he was. I think he was oblivious to what they were spending. I mean, I used to joke, my husband has since passed, but I used to joke that I could steal from my husband all day long. He would have never known. He didn't look at the books like he just didn't. Some people just don't write. And yet you can victim shame [00:39:30] my husband. But I never did steal.

Greg Kyte: So good good good good. Um, well, how did do you know how she perpetrated that? Because. Because again, it's so easy. We did the one one of the red collar. I'll use my new vocabulary. One of the what red collar crimes we looked into was the of the singer Selena, who her her business manager had been stealing from her, um, and then eventually murdered her. Uh, so it's so easy to get caught, you know, to get caught up in the murder side of stuff. But. [00:40:00] But back to the fraud. Do you know how How did she perpetrate the. Because you said she stole the. Again. Probably because it never went to court. They never landed on a dollar amount. But I know that, you know, we've talked about that. We we had one case where, uh, they they charged her with stealing half $1 million, but the statute of limitations went back, you know, like seven years. And it's and it kind of like what you're saying is like, she there's no way she wasn't stealing long before the statute of limitations. [00:40:30] So, um, so, you.

Kelly Paxton: Know, the 2 to 6 rule.

Greg Kyte: I don't.

Kelly Paxton: Okay. So this is again anecdotally, but I'll give a very good example of it. Okay. Um, whenever someone you ask someone you know, so how much have you stolen? And they'll confess unless they're serial grifters and, um, whatever number they give you, multiply it between 2 and 6. Now, one. And Rita Crundwell is a perfect example. What did she tell the FBI? [00:41:00] She stole 10,000,053.726. Yeah, yeah. It's like me going to Nordstrom's, and my husband's like, what were those fine Italian leather boots cost? Oh, a hundred bucks and they're 500. Like, you know, we round down. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: Well, and I think and this is my theory with that, I think that legitimately, especially for someone who's, who's stealing money over a long period of time, and it's like you said, it's smaller amounts that add up. And I don't [00:41:30] think that I mean, unless you've got I mean, I guess we know of someone and maybe Rita Crundwell was like this, but, uh, because I think didn't didn't they say they found, like, a bunch of spreadsheets that where she was actually keeping track of what she stole. So she probably knew. But a lot of people, I think they legit don't know. They just steal it and spend it, and they're not really keeping track of how much they've had. And so they really do think that they stole a lot less than they because they're like, if I stole $1 million, I'd be living a lot higher, you know, higher on the hog than this. [00:42:00] And it's like, no, actually, you know, $1 million over seven years is going to, you know, not get you weekly trips to Vegas. So. Yeah.

Kelly Paxton: Yeah. It's like getting a raise when you get a raise. They say, put it all into your retirement, right? No, you just like I joke, the suave shampoo becomes a beater, right? And you're like, oh, I like that better. You know, I mean, it's just it's lifestyle creep.

Greg Kyte: Yeah. For sure. So. So what did she do to actually get this, uh, [00:42:30] you know, between half $1,000,002.5 million out of the nonprofit.

Kelly Paxton: So she did fake accounts. Okay. And she also signed checks, so she just falsified checks. So now, this is an interesting thing from the ACF report to the nations, which we can talk about because it is a survey, not a study. And there is a difference. Um, men are more likely to commit vendor fraud than women. But you have to think about the position more men are in like purchasing procurement [00:43:00] than women. Okay. And that's their you know, the opportunity is for them. Um, so but she did fake accounts and she also signed checks.

Greg Kyte: Okay. So she funneled money into an account that wasn't the business. The nonprofit's account. And she just wrote checks to people that she wasn't supposed to be writing checks to. Which. And is that where the daughters came in? Is it was it the daughters who were receiving some of those checks?

Kelly Paxton: Yeah.

Greg Kyte: Okay. Gotcha. Now, another [00:43:30] part of this story. Okay. And again, not to poo poo that, but also it's I don't know, I guess I guess the interesting part of this fraud is the murder and the Benadryl. The way that she stole the money is kind of like, okay, we've seen that before. That's nothing. Nothing particularly inventive or, uh, you know, eye popping with that, right? Or is there would you concur?

Kelly Paxton: Yeah, I mean, I, I have seen people who, when they confess, you just see the relief. Okay, [00:44:00] the gig is up. Yeah, like you just see the relief there. Like, they all know that they're going to get caught eventually. And that's why a lot of them keep track of it. Like, I've gone into people's desks and seen like EOB checks, like those are the ones they stole. Or I've seen people that literally have had a spreadsheet of stolen amounts because they think they're going to pay it back. Like, right, right, right. This is gambling. I hate gambling, just it's it's my line in the sand. Um, so [00:44:30] say that Gladys has a gambling habit and she's stealing money, and all of a sudden she wins Powerball or whatever it is, like she wins big. Yeah. You guys are the accountants, so she pays it back, and she puts a journal entry in for $1,500,000. Do you not think the owner of the business is going to say, hey, what's that $1.5 $5 million.

Greg Kyte: Right?

Kelly Paxton: Right, right. Oh, well, I stole it from you. Do you think the owner of the business [00:45:00] is going to say, oh, you're okay? No.

Greg Kyte: No harm, no foul. Keep going. Gladys.

Kelly Paxton: Yeah. I like you hooked on the Gladys, I like it. Right. Right.

Greg Kyte: Yeah. No, that's. Well, I that's just the. I mean, the whole. I'll pay this back. That's that's a very diluted rationalization for fraud of how you're going to make yourself feel like you're not a worthless piece of trash for having stolen money from, from your, your business. But it's also just [00:45:30] right there. I, you know, at my we haven't gotten into it because we still don't know if we can, but, um, a fraud that was not reported to the authorities was, was, uh, one of the people who used to work at the company that I still work for. Um, and that was that was a it was a it was a loan type fraud where all the money that was taken out of the company was like, oh, it's a loan. And it's like, well, there was never any documentation for this loan.

Caleb Newquist: My favorite kind of loan.

Greg Kyte: Never, never a cent repaid of of [00:46:00] interest or principal on this loan that had no documentation. But it was always like, oh yeah. Yeah, it's it's a loan. Businesses give loans to the to their, you know, top people all the time.

Kelly Paxton: I was going to say let me guess. That was like a C-suite person.

Greg Kyte: Basically. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. So, so. And. Yeah. Anyways, so but but again just to say that's that's really almost that's a very explicit I'm going to pay all this money back kind of fraud where it was like no, no, no I'm not stealing that [00:46:30] money. That's a loan. And then the, the, the once it was discovered, everybody who was like on the board of directors and felt like it was their, you know, they were they were somehow culpable for this guy, uh, stealing the money, that victim victim blaming themselves as victims. They were they were like, I guess it is a loan. So we'll have to hold on to that and, you know and hope that he can actually pay it off. So. Yeah, well that's weird.

Kelly Paxton: That's a really interesting point that you have about that because [00:47:00] okay, say that business goes to law enforcement. Mhm.

Greg Kyte: Which they did not.

Kelly Paxton: Okay. Well say they did. And law enforcement is gonna oftentimes will say that's a civil matter. Go get yourself an attorney.

Greg Kyte: Oh yeah. Yeah. Interesting.

Kelly Paxton: That's like they're going to say that's an that's a civil matter. We've got dead bodies all over the place. We don't you know. Right. Unfortunately you know the saying if it bleeds it leads. Mhm. And I, I have had someone recently come out and they're so [00:47:30] frustrated with law enforcement because law enforcement is like we just we don't have the resources for this. Like sorry, but we don't have it. And you know if there's not a dead body. And in Laurie Eisenberg's case there was a dead body. Right. So, you know, there's podcasts about her. There's all sorts of things, but like, you know, your average garden variety embezzlement. I got in trouble when I worked at the sheriff's office because I wanted press releases for these embezzlement cases. We were getting [00:48:00] really good sentences for these embezzlement cases, and I was banned from saying press release. I'm not very much. Um, and the reason I did like.

Greg Kyte: There was a quarter jar. Every time you said press release, you had to put a quarter in a jar.

Kelly Paxton: Practically. Wow. Like, so guess what I did? I went around. Okay.

Greg Kyte: You still made the press releases or you started your podcast?

Kelly Paxton: No, I went to. So the public information officer was like, no one wants to hear about these [00:48:30] Embezzlements Kelly. We want to, like, do the stories about the kid who crashes into Carl's Jr at two in the morning and and you know, this is 2008, 2009 when newspapers, people still read like papers. And I was like, dude, no one reads the paper whose crashes into Carl's Jr. Junior. People read the paper that have businesses, and they see that Gladys stole $1 million from doctor E. And then the bigger thing for me was the Google effect. So you have Gladys [00:49:00] Smith stole $1 million from doctor E, and that follows her forever. If it's a press release. So guess what I did? I went to the news that there is a quarterly newsletter and, you know, it was for all the like, you know, crime fighters in the, you know, you sign up for your sheriff's newsletter. And I had them put them in there. It didn't I didn't last much longer at the sheriff's office.

Greg Kyte: Oh yeah. They, they they were on to you pretty quick and were [00:49:30] like, hey, this is okay, I get it.

Caleb Newquist: Let me ask you, Kelly, let me ask you a question. Since you mentioned sentences, one thing that I'm consistently perplexed by and I know Greg is too, is just how sentences are determined. So I'm wondering, like, do you have any experience with that? And like, what kind of light can you shed on? Like what determines what kind of a sentence people get? Like we're familiar with wire fraud. Like, wire fraud is a good example of where we know it's like it's it's maximum 20 years for each count of wire fraud. So, [00:50:00] like, wire fraud at the federal level, it really adds up. But I'm curious, like what what what you're what what insight you have into like, how sentences work.

Kelly Paxton: Okay, so, um, I tell this I have a very weird sense of humor when it comes to fraud. And, um, if anyone out in your audience is going to steal, let's do some pre due diligence as to sentencing in your municipality.

Caleb Newquist: Fantastic idea.

Kelly Paxton: Yeah, yeah. [00:50:30] I mean, there is a judge in Montana who he got in a little bit of trouble because he said women do this crime all the time. We've got to throw the book at them. Um. Not great. No. Uh, sounds like he would.

Caleb Newquist: Have been very comfortable at the Salem witch trials, but whatever.

Kelly Paxton: Yes. Yeah. Um, so the feds are different because they have, um, they've got, uh, a number system. So if you steal 500 to 1 million, you get points. If you steal a [00:51:00] million to. So that's pretty buckled up. But like a municipality. So Portland was in a tri county, so it says Portland, but there's Washington, Multnomah and Clackamas. And they kind of joke was don't steal in Clackamas because you're going to they're going to throw the book at you. Steal. And Multnomah County, which is downtown Portland, you'd get zoodoo like you'd have to do community service and scrape up zoo poop, you know? Okay. Uh, I, um, I like.

Caleb Newquist: I like that [00:51:30] I like that joke. I like that joke. I'm sorry. I'm not sorry to say.

Kelly Paxton: County. We were getting good sentences, so we had. But, you know, this is a it's a it can be subjective. So we had a young woman named Tiffany who stole. Now, she didn't have a record, but she clearly had done it before. So, um, she has an agreement with the prosecutor and, you know, uh, her defense attorney that she'll probably get 19 [00:52:00] to 23 months, and she decides she's going to let the judge sentence her. And so, being on the good prosecution side, we bring in her ex-husband, and her ex-husband says who they share custody with. You know what? I try to teach my son right and wrong. You have to pay for things, blah, blah, blah. And then he goes to my ex-wife's house on the weekend. He drops his iPhone in the pool, and she just buys him a new one. And he's. I'm really struggling with [00:52:30] this, and he's going on and on, and you can see the judge get more and more angry now. So at the end, the judge is like, I think it was 76 months. Okay. Now, she had an agreement between 19 and 23, and she decided to roll the dice, so to speak. He gave her 76 months. Now she appealed it, and I don't remember exactly what happened, but like, it's all over the board [00:53:00] in these sort of smaller municipalities. And the judge had a child who is a long, crazy story. But he, you know, he had some issues on how she was parenting and he threw the book at her. She could have gotten 19 months, right. So, yeah.

Caleb Newquist: So the judge so judges have a lot of. So at the federal level, if I understand you right, there's there's basically you hear about sentencing guidelines, and judges are kind of duty bound to follow those for the most part. Whereas [00:53:30] in state court or district court, you know, local courts, the judge has a lot more discretion.

Kelly Paxton: Yes.

Caleb Newquist: Mm. Okay.

Greg Kyte: Yeah. So you not not a not a great not not a not a great answer. It's still like, oh, it's a kind of a mystery gamble, Greg. It's a mystery.

Caleb Newquist: Yeah, it's a gamble either way you go federal case or. Yeah. Yeah.

Kelly Paxton: And then people are like, what? How is it different between a federal and municipal case. Mhm. You know [00:54:00] that's. Oh exactly.

Greg Kyte: Oh exactly. Yeah.

Kelly Paxton: Yeah. Like you know I don't like the Michael Avenatti case. You know he's in prison. Yep. Okay Greg.

Caleb Newquist: You know who that guy.

Greg Kyte: Is. Oh yeah Michael Avenatti he's the guy who's in prison.

Kelly Paxton: Yeah. Stormy Daniels oh okay. Yeah yeah. All right Nike really pushed the thumb of justice. Let's just say and he's in federal prison now. Yeah. If you're Joe the Plumber and Michael Avenatti [00:54:30] tries to shake you down, do you think the feds are going to be interested in, you know, right. The justice he.

Caleb Newquist: Tried to shake, but he tried to shake Nike down.

Kelly Paxton: Yes, he did. And Nike's got a lot of lawyers. They got a lot of lawyers and they've got the US attorney on speed dial. Yeah, yeah.

Greg Kyte: Yeah. Um, one last thing before we wrap this up, I thought I back to the case. I thought one of the. And mostly just me saying this is something that I thought was a weird twist in the case was didn't. [00:55:00] So back to Laurie Eisenberg. Uh, she didn't. One of her daughters post bail for her, and then she skipped out on the bail that her daughter posted. So her daughter was like, I'm gonna do you a solid mom. Here's some money to get you out of jail because I believe in you. And then mom was like, thanks for that. And then and then blipped out and like, like you said, she was on the lam for a while.

Kelly Paxton: Um, yeah. For months.

Greg Kyte: And then the there was something about. And again, I [00:55:30] just vaguely remember this when I read through like, didn't the daughter, that daughter, maybe there was a number of daughters who specifically came to her sentencing, not in support of her, but actively to be like, yeah, put her away. Something like that. Does that is that correct?

Kelly Paxton: Yeah. So he had daughters from a prior marriage, and I think those were the ones who are like, oh, okay. I mean, yeah. So they had a blended family. Okay. Um, but yeah, I mean, can you imagine like wait.

Greg Kyte: Wait, was it the daughters, was it his daughters that posted bail for her? [00:56:00] That would be great. Okay. Because that would be nuts. If it's like we believe in our that our that our step mom is, is a good person. Yeah, I think.

Kelly Paxton: I think she qualifies as step monster. Yeah, I.

Greg Kyte: Think so too.

Kelly Paxton: Yeah, yeah for sure. Not bonus mom, not step mom. She's a step monster.

Greg Kyte: Yeah, yeah, yeah for sure. Well, Kelly, uh, the name of your podcast is fraud ish. I'm assuming that people can find it wherever they find, uh, podcasts. Is that correct? [00:56:30]

Kelly Paxton: Yes. They can. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect.

Greg Kyte: So, so for our our true crime. White collar, red collar, gray collar crime. Uh, in junkies out there. Uh, you got another one to put to put on your list with, uh, with Kelly. Thank you so much, uh, for being on our show.

Kelly Paxton: I'm so glad we were able to do this again, because I listened to your podcast religiously, and, um, you know, we're all a community of trying to helping people, you know, not get be victims.

Greg Kyte: Exactly. Right on. Well, thank you so [00:57:00] much for being here. We appreciate it a ton. Awesome.

Caleb Newquist: Okay, Greg, that was fun. I'm glad you joined us for this episode.

Greg Kyte: Thank. It was nice. It was nice to be here for the whole time and not have to bounce out and wonder what I was missing before I came back in. So, yeah. Fun time with with Kelly. Uh, it's it's she she's got it. She has she's developed her her own vernacular for for everything, [00:57:30] everything fraud related. And it's very fun to, uh, to, to to get to get educated on the the latest slang in the fraud that the fraud.

Caleb Newquist: I'm going to be googling. I'm going to be googling red color crime from now on. Are you.

Greg Kyte: Good? That's probably not a bad idea. Those are the fun cases for sure. I'm also going to need to Google. Uh, when do I know that I've been, uh, OD'd, roofied with Benadryl? I think that's what it needs to be. So, yeah, because they're. [00:58:00] Yeah, that's a that. Well, also my my, uh, my fiance, she loves, uh, the true crime where people do get murdered. Oh, okay. Is your is your wife into that the true crime? No.

Caleb Newquist: Not really. Unless they're unless there's like a unless there's like a a religious sect involved.

Greg Kyte: Okay. Nice. Nice. Yeah. No, this this was one of those ones where I was like, you're going to love the this Lori Eisenberg case, because not only did she steal [00:58:30] money and I told her about the, the the boat and the Benadryl and oh, man. And then I can't remember what. But she was like, oh my gosh, that reminds me of. And then she told me this other true crime story that she heard about that was like, so disturbing, like ten times. And I'm just like, that's why I like what we do, because I hate that there's an actual human being who did what you just told me they did. Let me just hear about people stealing money and going to jail. That's what that's that's my speed. That's my lane.

Caleb Newquist: If [00:59:00] you'd like to contact Kelly, she's on LinkedIn at Kelly Paxton, pink collar crime expert. Or you can go to either of her websites Kelly paxton.com or Pink color crime.com. And she just released a book called Embezzlement How to detect, prevent and Investigate Pink Collar Crime. Get it wherever you get. Well, I think it's on Amazon. I don't think you can get it everywhere. Yeah. But anyway, try getting it wherever you get another.

Greg Kyte: Is there another place to get a book? [00:59:30] Barnes and Noble.

Caleb Newquist: Greg. Barnes and noble.

Greg Kyte: I I can't, I can't remember the last time I bought a book that wasn't just on Amazon. So, uh. Yeah. You're not. You're not Jeff. Jeff, I'm in the palm of Jeff Bezos hand. He just he the he just smiled as soon as I said what I said and I, I made him even more.

Caleb Newquist: I think I think you make him a little bit of money every time you smile. Greg.

Greg Kyte: Oh, oh do I. Okay, then.

Caleb Newquist: I don't know how, but I'm just. [01:00:00] I'm this.

Greg Kyte: This one's for you, Jeff. Uh. All right, that's it for this episode. Remember, Benadryl is a great over-the-counter antihistamine and murder weapon.

Caleb Newquist: And also remember, according to Idaho state law, if your daughter posts bail for you and you skip out on your court date, you are required to return any World's Best Mom mugs that you were given on Mother's Day.

Greg Kyte: Uh, it's a state law. Uh, so just be aware when you're traveling through Idaho. Yeah. Uh, if you want to drop us a line, send us an email at [01:00:30] oh, my Mark. Keep calm. Caleb, where can people find you? Out there in the ether.

Caleb Newquist: Linkedin. Caleb. Newquist. Greg. What about you? Are you on LinkedIn?

Greg Kyte: Slash. Greg. Actually, it might be Greg Kite, CPA, but I think it's just Greg.

Caleb Newquist: Greg. Kite.

Greg Kyte: I'm pretty sure it's just Greg Kite. Yep.

Caleb Newquist: Oh, my fraud is written by Greg Kite and myself, our producer Zach Franc. Rate review and subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. If [01:01:00] you listen to podcasts on the earmark app, you can earn CPE. It is that time of year, is it not, Greg? It is.

Greg Kyte: If it is that time of year. Yes. Go get it. Yeah.

Caleb Newquist: Earmark CPE.

Greg Kyte: Worth it.

Caleb Newquist: Join us next time for more average swindlers and scams from stories that will make you say, who am I? Who am.

Greg Kyte: I? Fraud.