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Stories from survivors and warriors living in the world of recovery. We can and do recover in many different ways and these stories are from incredible humans living their second, third, hundredth lives. Tune in for a laugh, a cry, and some information you may not have had yesterday.
Welcome to the Voices in Recovery podcast. Voices in Recovery is produced by Freedom's Paths Recovery Society, a registered Canadian charity. If you enjoy the podcast, please consider a donation at www.freedomspathrecoverysociety.ca. All donations go directly to assisting Freedom's Path in providing services free of charge and helps us keep the podcast going. We are grateful for any and all donations.
Darcy:This podcast discusses difficult topics such as childhood abuse, drug and alcohol use, sexuality, sexualized trauma, and more. If you are under the age of 18, please speak with your legal guardian prior to listening. The opinions expressed during the podcast are those of the individual, and not those of voices in recovery or Freedom's Path Recovery Society. Thank you for listening, and I hope you enjoy the podcast.
Michelle:This podcast is being recorded on the traditional land of the Black Park Confederacy, which consists of the Kainai, the Kainai, Siksika, and the Black Sea in The US. We acknowledge the Stoney Nakota, which consists of the Bear's Paw, Morley, and Chinooki. We acknowledge the Situ Nahuatl Huardene and the Metis, Inuit status, and non status from all of Turtle Island and those who have visited. We are all treated here.
Dave:I just am so glad you're here. Yeah. Thank you for coming on.
Michelle:Always honored to be here, actually.
Dave:I and I just heard before Darcy left that you got to see some of your, like, notes from your doctors.
Michelle:Yeah. That, it's funny you talk about violence against women. That was kind of the
Dave:That's exactly what we're talking about.
Michelle:And, you know, like this is, non indigenous women as well. They experienced this. It's that constant gaslighting and, after reading, through the other lawyer, his his view of what they think of me, it was very disappointing and I was disappointed to see the writing of my doctor about the way they they wrote that. It's it's When they
Dave:perceive you to be There's
Michelle:so much irony in this world of people claiming to be anti racist, claiming to be for reconciliation, claiming to, you know, listen to the patient and oh, and mental health matters too, Dave. I don't know if you're aware. But yet the moment you're in a right. Right? The the moment you're in the setting of the doctors, it's in your head.
Michelle:You're a borderline personality disorder, which I've never been diagnosed with or accused of. Mhmm. And, yeah. And so in January for our book club, we had done Sites of Truth. And what that is is a follow-up report by the person who was tasked with looking a little deeper into the missing children and, Mark Graves after the TRC book came out and and such.
Michelle:So in this report, they said, the very first documented indigenous person who died at residential school was a young girl and she was complaining of certain things and they took her to the doctor. And the doctor wrote in her notes hysteria, like they do for most women in general Yep. In 2025.
Dave:Yep. So For the last thousand years.
Michelle:Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So it it just it just amplifies while I want to be, you know, we're in an atmosphere where someone like Daniel Smith is absolutely attacking all science and absolutely downplaying, you know, the the role of this and that, especially when it comes to evidence and data and science. And I wanna be that person to back that, but I have seen so much ugliness, so much anti indigenous racism, so much misogyny, and and by women, by women of color in health care.
Michelle:And, it it's very discouraging because, you know, I I feel like my entire life is going to massage, going to Cairo, doing, you know, have I eaten enough Metamucil, enough fruits, enough vegetables? Did I take the dog for the walk? What am I doing to make up if I missed it? You know, and so I'm constantly throughout the day trying to make sure I'm, you know, in a positive frame, fighting negative thoughts. And it's twenty four seven and yet, I'm still obese by the standards of the medical community.
Michelle:So these are the things they constantly bring up, you know, to try to minimize that how little you care about your health as if that's not my twenty four seven of existing. Yeah. You know?
Dave:Yeah. And as if they're not partially responsible for our health.
Michelle:A %. Like, they don't say obesity due to. They don't say if this has been investigated. Nothing. You know, they just say she's obese.
Michelle:She doesn't care about her health. Despite the fact I am a nonsmoker. Despite the fact I don't do drugs or drink alcohol. You know, I'm just not that person. So, you know, being at a sobriety podcast is, is an honor to be here.
Michelle:Mhmm. But I I do do think that the world really tries to infuse enough trauma in order for people to have addictions in order Yeah. You know, and mental health issues.
Dave:So it's it's certainly can't be a surprise.
Michelle:No. At this point For anybody who's read the national inquiry, it is very clear the health components of, you know, racism and misogyny and homophobia that, our people are constantly faced with. I was recently diagnosed with ADHD. I likely have autism as well. And, I've been reading into the studies about indigenous and there's very few.
Michelle:And the ones that do exist, most of the people were misdiagnosed with fetal alcohol syndrome and really and truly that's a that's a a bias. Mhmm. Right?
Dave:Of course it is.
Michelle:Yeah. So Well, I
Dave:think it's known as like soft a soft policing. A soft way way to soft police indigenous people.
Michelle:Right. Right? So very disappointing to, you know, read the lack of real data on that and the the lack of real, you know, tools and coping tools and that. And, you know, they think I'm, you know, out to lunch by talking about colonialism and racism and misogyny. And, he can just see it in the eyes of especially women.
Michelle:Why can't you just conform? Yeah. Yeah. So
Dave:Well, and then that must be also, like, for racialized folks, just conform must be something that they have to deal with as well.
Michelle:Well, that's just it.
Dave:Like Like, not just being a woman. Right? Like, but added on that element.
Michelle:A %. So, yeah. It's, yeah. It's a lot of fun trying to Yeah. Discuss this with people who dismiss you just solely based off the fact that you're not a white man.
Dave:Which is insanity to me.
Michelle:I I it's so funny because you and I can say the exact same thing
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:And people will hear it from you.
Dave:They
Michelle:won't hear it from me, but they'll hear it when you say it.
Dave:Yeah. Yeah. And and actually, that's part of what I wanna talk with you about today was, first of all, you're the only person that I really always wanna talk to, to be honest with you. In terms of, like, these kinds of conversations Uh-huh. Because I just I love them.
Dave:I love you. I I I get so much from the conversations.
Michelle:Just for your listeners, my my child constantly refers to you as uncle.
Dave:Oh. Yeah. Fantastic. I always think of your child as one of my nieces or nephews. Yeah.
Michelle:Yeah. Exactly. So it's so funny to me, you know, how how we are actually family if we allow it to be and and the understanding of chosen family, like, these things matter to me. Yeah. And so, yeah.
Michelle:It's a I I just wanted to make sure our our listeners heard that because it's important.
Dave:Well, and and a part of it, you know, when I was thinking about inviting you today was Yeah. I was also partly hesitant because I know you you have to talk about racism all the time.
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:You know, and so I I thought of that. I was like, only if you have the capacity. Yeah. Because I know for for folks like you, like yourself, like my friend who I'm gonna talk about, I'm not gonna use their name, for lots of reasons. I'm also not gonna use the names of the of the police officers involved, because we both know that they like to sue.
Dave:When they can't beat you up, they'll sue you. A %. And so we're just gonna go ahead and I'm gonna be as general as I can. Yeah. The the idea that I really wanna get across to our listeners.
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:Because I know you already know the story. I don't have you'll you'll hear the story, be like, oh my god. Another time where this happens. Right? Like Yep.
Dave:Yep. And when I was talking to Darcy about it before you got here, we were talking about all the intersections that hit in this one story. Yep. Like, all the different things that hit. So I have a friend.
Dave:They're indigenous. They're an indigenous woman. They've obviously been through they're almost 40, so they have been through many things that an indigenous woman would have had to go through. Yes. Right?
Dave:Abuse, all of the things, in in their lifetime. K. Obviously, also a victim of all of constant police bullshit. Okay. But one of the things I'm learning, from reading lots, I've been reading so much more thanks to your book club.
Dave:I'm not a big club fan, but I do love the books you read. So, and I love to read. So part of that, though, is for me reading, it starts to motivate action. Yeah. Right?
Dave:So it starts to get me in a place where I'm like, okay. Well, how is this impacting life now? Right? Because a lot of stuff we read might be historical or have historical data involved, but it's really talking about what culture is like right now. Mhmm.
Dave:Right? And and so one of the benefits, and this could maybe some people will be thinking it's not a benefit of reading lots, is you start to see things as they are as opposed to how you were taught to see them.
Michelle:Yes. Right? Yes.
Dave:And and so and this was a huge thing with this example. My friend is the victim of a crime. K. The perpetrator continuously breaches the conditions. They're still on charge.
Dave:Everything's still going, but the perpetrator continuously breaches the conditions. Now the perpetrator is a white man. Okay? And this is this is relevant and all you out there listening, you're welcome to have your own opinions about this stuff. I I encourage you to, as a matter of fact.
Dave:So but the accused is a white man. Okay? The offenses are severe. Okay? So we're just I'm not gonna tell you what the charges are.
Dave:I'm just gonna say they're severe, because they are. They're probably the worst you could do to another human without killing them Yeah. Pretty much. Right? Yeah.
Dave:You take away everything from them. So anyway, so throughout the course of about a year and a half, this person has contacted, Calgary Police Service trying to figure out what to do when he breaches because he keeps breaching and so I think a year ago there was an actual breach late charge late. Okay. So for folks out there, well, you know, if you don't know, a breach is a new charge on the old conditions. Okay.
Dave:So it's not an it's not a charge connected to the old ones. It's brand new. It's a separate charge all its own, the breach. So the police can do these and they do them all the time when they want to. So I have to include that because most of our listeners know that I've been working with and been a part of that culture for a long time.
Dave:Sure. So I am telling you there is no question in my mind that these this officer and I'm gonna say this officer because there was two there, but one didn't talk because he knew he was out he was out of the element, and he didn't wanna get involved.
Michelle:Two years.
Dave:Right? Because so as soon as so you have to keep in mind, my friend's a victim of crime. Uh-huh. K? Victim of crime.
Dave:They she calls to do because this guy breached two days in a row and refused to leave. So then she sends an email to the original officer investigating officer and not, I'm gonna read the email. I gotta get my phone, and I apologize for this.
Michelle:That sounds like Darcy Composite.
Dave:But I am I am 100% gonna read the email that this cop sent my friend after the incident, of her attempting to report. So she calls she gets them to come. The original officer says you need to call the jet the no nonemergency number to file a new charge because it's a new charge. Right? And I was like, okay.
Dave:That seems fair, but it also seems like this constable doesn't give a shit. So and in emails, it's easier to tell that because people put their intentions right there. Right? The tone is right there. It's like, and so anyway, my friend, not trusting the police are gonna help her, decides can I call from your house?
Dave:Can I put the report in? Can the cops come to your place, my place? Yeah. And I said absolutely. I'll support you.
Dave:Even though once I said that, I was like, oh, shit. That means I have to have cops in my house, which I don't want at any time. Right? But it's my friend. Of course, I'm gonna do that.
Dave:I'm like, fuck. You're no one's listening. You think maybe somehow it'll change. It'll be different because I'm white. Right?
Dave:And even I think, fuck maybe. Right? Like Sure. But chances are nothing will be different. Yeah.
Dave:K. So I'm preparing for the cops to come in and talk to my friend, and I'm sitting on my couch. My back the back of my couch is to the front door. I'm watching TV. I purposely don't get up.
Dave:I let my friend answer the door, talk to the police. They come in to the entrance way of my apartment. And so I am not looking at them. I am not engaging. I am minding my business because I am trying to allow them to do what they were gonna do.
Dave:Right? Well, before the before my friend can say anything about what's going on, the very white, very, like, young ish, probably not as young as I think because I'm old now, so everyone looks young. Mhmm.
Michelle:Right? Feel bad.
Dave:So probably not as probably not as young as I think, maybe. But, anyway, he just says no, basically. He's like no. There's no charge. There's no breach.
Dave:So then she starts trying to interject some points that might help him come to a different determination since he hasn't talked to her yet. He's already decided he's not gonna do it. And and I will be honest with you and everyone who's listening. As soon as he started talking, a lightning bolt hit my forehead and I was like this is why folks go missing. Yeah.
Dave:Is because the cops don't care. Nope. And and so
Michelle:And especially if it's a visibly indigenous woman.
Dave:Visibly indigenous.
Michelle:Believe that.
Dave:Yep. And and there's no mistaken, my friend. And and and why would you want to? No. Right?
Dave:The only the only thing it does obviously and so for me, I was like, oh, this is fucking gross. Yeah. Like, I'm sitting there and I'm still trying to be cool because my friend's a victim. There there's there's really nothing we should have to worry about because my friend is a victim of crime. But let me tell you guys the disgusting feeling that started to rise up in me as he continually let her know that she didn't matter.
Dave:Yeah. Right? Because you see that cop in his mind is doing his job and he's saying I don't have the charge so I'm not going to. And really all he had to do is just say look I'm a racist hump. I refuse to to charge a white man for this crime.
Dave:Mhmm. That's all he would have had to say and we would have complained if I would have complained
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:Right? But at the same time it would have been honest. Yeah. Yeah. Because it was a % racist.
Michelle:Well, and and that the problem with this is is that because people don't say, as a white man, I hate you because you're a native woman. Because those words aren't said, somehow it's less racist in the eyes of of settlers, basically. And and that is so deplorable.
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:Because, like, I I have said this in all of my teachings. Like, every woman in here knows what it's like to be dismissed solely based off of the fact of your what's between your legs.
Dave:Yep.
Michelle:Every woman. Yeah. We all know that feeling and the court of law doesn't prove these things. And and so that's why as indigenous people, we say it's an injustice system. Yeah.
Michelle:Because it's never fair. It's never without prejudice. It's never impartial even though they claim it is. Yeah. And I've I've had this conversation recently with another friend of, of mine and I said, look, you can't tell me policing isn't political because who's in charge of Lethbridge right now?
Michelle:You know, ex cops. Mhmm. And, you know, who are you hearing the opinion of? Ex cops. Who's in charge of public safety right now?
Michelle:An ex cop. So don't pretend to me that somehow, you know, police unions or like, they they have so much bias and so much prejudice and especially against women, against people of color, against, anyone who's not straight and they're fat phobic and I can just go on and on.
Dave:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and so as they talked, I listened, like I I tried to just listen. And then of course, he just kept saying no.
Dave:And he kept saying no in cop talk. Right? In the in the look, I'm a lazy racist shit.
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:This is basically all I heard him say.
Michelle:Yep.
Dave:Look, I'm racist.
Michelle:Yep.
Dave:I don't care about you.
Michelle:Yep.
Dave:And really, I like protecting my fellow rapist cops. Yes. So why wouldn't I protect the rapist on the street?
Michelle:A %.
Dave:Right? And and and it was so funny because we've talked about this many times. Yep. Like the and even on this podcast, we've talked about the rape culture of the police. Yep.
Dave:Well, see, to me, this is what hit me like a bolt of lightning was all these different things at once. Yeah. Right? It was like the intersection of all these things where now I'm seeing the rape culture play out with a victim of of of crime, and I'm watching it play out in real time with a real person who's actually dodging the responsibility even though they're well aware of what the conditions say, well aware this person has breached, continuously breached and still it will not charge. So, of course, like, me being the privileged white man that I am.
Michelle:But, first and foremost, that's obviously Justin Trudeau's fault. Of course. Like like, let's let's be real here. Just kidding.
Dave:I I should've mentioned I should've started off the story.
Michelle:Obviously. Because there's gotta be a statement. What is that is what is so upsetting and that's why you'll hear a lot of folks say, oh, look at the this projection. Because Mhmm. Like, nowhere has Justin Trudeau ever said, you know, we probably shouldn't charge that guy.
Michelle:It's never been Justin Trudeau.
Dave:No one's asked him. I can assure you.
Michelle:No one. And yet these people tell themselves this Yeah. Talking point in their head when it's like, no. It is your racist conservative cops that are doing this. Not anybody fucking else.
Michelle:Yeah. And it's your conservative elected, politicians. I won't hire the judges, the lawyers. Mhmm. And, you know, even though they're given the funding from the federal government to appoint more judges and put more, resources towards fighting crime Yeah.
Michelle:They won't do it because it's easier for them to point the finger at Justin Trudeau and say it's his fault instead of seeing the underlining problems here of, you know The systemic, like the the systemic reports that we have recommendations that go all the way to the roof. We won't implement that. We would rather just blame Justin Trudeau. Yeah. So, like, and I have no time and patience for people who haven't read and looked into the system and seen how we have such a shortfall of judges and lawyers and support staff to actually work the system properly and we have a rape culture and a a victim blaming, culture within the police service.
Dave:Even within the justice system, within judges, lawyers are all a part of that.
Michelle:100%. It it is incredible that people are so blind to what the reality is. Yeah. And, and and, I mean, it's report after report. Yeah.
Michelle:White people's report for white people
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:Say the same thing as the national inquiry says. And there's lots of, like, cross citing in in all of these reports saying, hey, look. We've had these solutions for decades, but nobody wants to implement them because the voter base is so ignorant. It's easier to believe it's somehow Justin Trudeau's
Dave:fault. Or it's somehow indigenous people's fault.
Michelle:Yeah. It's their fault.
Dave:It's the victim's fault. Right. It's always Because we have yeah. We have this culture of the victim can't be right. They can't be tell and if it's an if it's a black indigenous or person of color who's a woman, they're never even allowed to be a victim.
Michelle:But that and that is the root of settler colonialism. Yeah. Because settler colonialism is not just land theft. It's also slave trade. Right?
Michelle:And it's also displacement of indigenous people. So, like, like, you have that intersectionality there again, showing that this whole blame victim blaming culture is really just settler colonialism.
Dave:Yeah. It is. It's like you blame just like with the I'm sure those original settlers and and colonists blamed indigenous people for things %. And then took their land and said, see, now it's better. %.
Dave:Right? Like and there are so many ways that our culture still does this. And it's to me, and I get it, like, the you know, your general population is never gonna know what really goes on in the police services no matter what city you're in, but you can absolutely obviously, you have to read the reports. Yeah. And you and if you wanna do your due diligence on this stuff, just pay attention.
Dave:Yeah. Because, like, I it's not like all of a sudden I found these books that nobody else could read.
Michelle:Yeah. I know.
Dave:Alright. These books are %. For everyone.
Michelle:And The national inquiry has been public.
Dave:A %. Yeah. And you can get all you can get all the calls to action and stuff right online for free, most of it.
Michelle:All of it. As far as I'm concerned. Right? Yeah.
Dave:So so back to this incident. Right? So now you've got me, a white guy, sitting on the couch watching TV, trying to mind his own business even though he knows the cops lying, the cops, like, just basically putting sugar on a piece of turd for my friend. I'm trying. But then he keeps going on this this idea that he can't breach, and I just said, you fucking liar.
Dave:I I could finally couldn't stop myself, and I stood up. And so this is another element that that I know you're gonna pick up on just like Darcy did, but, like, he starts arguing with me, then I start arguing with him. I call him a fucking goof and say get the fuck out of my apartment to both the cops. Mhmm. Well, at this point, I'm standing up off the couch and moving towards them.
Dave:Mhmm. If I was an a black indigenous or a person of color, I would have been shot
Michelle:Yep.
Dave:Without question. And I knew it as I was doing it. Right? And watching the cops leave my apartment, I also knew that I was acting out of great privilege here.
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:Right? That that I was so sure they were gonna leave that I a % got off the couch to push them out.
Michelle:Okay. I'm just gonna throw something at you. First of all, that young girl's or that indigenous friend of yours, like, her life was in danger in that moment.
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:You know? And that's why we don't call the cops. But the other thing is
Dave:I I thought about that after. Yeah.
Michelle:As a child with a white father, who's tall, like, six two and, you know, boilermaker, union boilermaker, so tough son of a bitch. Mhmm. You know, I didn't understand that privilege.
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:Right? And now that I'm with my husband, who actually does look more native Mhmm. You know, his back gives him away and he does he's, like, oblivious. You know, he he does have white privilege because people don't recognize him as native. However, I don't get the same treatment because he's less white Mhmm.
Michelle:And he's not six foot two. Yeah. And so when I see the difference of how I've been treated, obviously, once I turned 18, you know, out of the house Mhmm. And I'm on my own, you know, and I am alone as an adult realizing, like, this world is treating me so different than when my dad is right there. Mhmm.
Michelle:So kinda back because, like, Calgary is about who you know, what you know. Right? And so, for example, I I always see a lot of change within, the justice system when a very conservative white woman is affected. And the reason for that when you really look into it, every case that any substantial change has happened, you know, daddy who's a cop, husband's a cop Yeah. Or, daddy's a lawyer or husband's a lawyer, and so they know how to work the system.
Michelle:Mhmm. So, like, the commoner, like myself or another native woman, who gives a shit? The sooner we all fucking die, the sooner everybody can steal our land. Right? So the general
Dave:Well, that's the and that's the that's fucking terrifying. I know. Because I could sense that in this cop. Right? He just doesn't give a shit.
Michelle:He doesn't give a shit. But, oh my god, my wife, my my mom, my sister was treated bad. You know, maybe we can make some changes now. Yeah. And that I know to be a truth.
Michelle:And I I have tried to work within the system the best I can, but, ultimately, that's the truth. That's the reality.
Dave:Yeah. And and and and it is a reality. And so because it's systemic, I recognize first of all, in that moment when they left my apartment after I and I called the one cop a fucking goof Yeah. Like, I I'm being honest, you guys, like, out there listening. I was a % angry.
Dave:I was should be. 100%. I could see so back about a month ago, maybe it was more than a month ago here in Calgary, we had that double homicide. Right? It was a abuse of x.
Dave:Yes. K. So okay. So if you're out there and you these incidents happen and you think, how does that happen? Yeah.
Dave:How does it get to a point where it's that bad?
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:This is how it happens.
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:Is you discount the victim leading all the way up and the next thing you know they're dead. Yeah. Now we're I'm saying these words. There are gonna be people out there like, oh, the hyperbole, whatever. You're you're just amping it up and I'm like, no.
Dave:But I'm not. No. Because you see, part of my job for the last twenty five years was getting to know victims
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:Who are humans Yeah. First of all.
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:K? I use that word victim because trying to differentiate between a person who commits the crime and a person who was the victim of the crime Yep. Right? Yep. And trying to remind folks that no matter what a person looks like, they're still a person Yep.
Dave:And therefore capable of agency and being a victim. But I've the more reading I do, the more I realized that the system is designed to believe, first of all, women Yep. Are not to be believed.
Michelle:Never. There's hysteria every time, Dave.
Dave:And then if you add in black, indigenous, and a woman of color Yeah. Yeah. Then you have another layer of, oh, yeah. We're not paying attention to them. They can't be victims because they're already problems.
Michelle:Yeah. Exactly.
Dave:Right? They're problems. They can't be victims. We can't protect them. Yeah.
Dave:And and so if you're out there thinking that's crazy, Dave, like, Dave, you're talking crazy. This cop still refused to breach the person who had been breaching it like, openly breaching Yep. And the cop said no. Even after I kicked him out don't get me wrong. Once I kicked him out, I I thought for sure he had already said no anyway.
Dave:Yeah. Yeah. Right?
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:And then, of course, my friend had to fucking listen to their bullshit again in the hallway because I said, look, I'll leave the door open for you, but they can't come back in.
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:Yeah. And, of course, the one cop who was turns out was probably the officer coach. So this racist white cop is an officer coach at this time. So he's also teaching another officer who doesn't say a word. That's how I know he's being coached is because it's getting challenging, and he just has to listen.
Dave:Right? So not only is the old guy passing on or the older guy passing on this shitty policing technique of do nothing. Right? Like, don't worry. Like, what are the chances this guy will kill her?
Dave:Probably one in a million. Right? No. It's not that bad. It's probably one in, like, fucking fifty.
Dave:Right? Especially
Michelle:the reason why we choose the the bear.
Dave:Right? And it always comes back to that now with the bear. Right? Because it's like the bear is not gonna do this shit. No.
Dave:You fucking tell the bear to get lost once, most of the time they don't come back. No. Exactly. Right? Like, and and so this person, my friend, has to be revictimized every time now.
Dave:Yep. And and not by the person who's also doing it, don't get me wrong, but by the system that is telling her Yeah.
Michelle:To to rely on them. Meanwhile, you have these horrendous, like, social media posts, like, oh my god, we're so glad that people are reporting or, Belle Let's Talk and Yeah. Indigenous women's lives matter. It's like, no. Why are you lying?
Dave:Yeah. It's performative bullshit. Lie. Yeah. So
Michelle:yeah. It's, part of the culture is to lie. Obviously, like, the propaganda has been over a hundred and fifty years. Yeah. You know, the k to 12 is is horrendous at telling the truth.
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:Right? Like, I was at, the ship and anchor with a friend of mine and, it happened to be Robbie Burns' day. And all of these tartans were everybody everywhere and Calgary is named after a Scottish inlet. And I just think, you know, it is incredible the picking and choosing of what history we decide to celebrate, you know. It's just incredible.
Dave:It's it's incredible and really not surprising
Michelle:No.
Dave:When you look at, like and the fact that people can't just look at our holidays and be like, oh, yeah. Maybe there's a little white supremacist. Like, you know what I mean? Like, maybe just a little bit.
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:So so my friend, obviously devastated, comes back in. They're not gonna do anything. She's crying. Yeah. Of course, she's, you know, distraught.
Dave:She's revictimized. Yeah. She's revictimized. And and now she's revictimized. And, of course, she thinks I'm crazy because I lost my mind.
Dave:Right? Yeah. But I I could
Michelle:Because she knows and I know we can't do what you did. Now we can think it and we could know it %. But we know we can't say it.
Dave:And you can't do what I did Nope. Because you will be killed.
Michelle:A %.
Dave:With and I knew that. Like, even as I stood up, I was like, okay, big guy. What are you doing? Where are you going with this? Like, I'm like, are you really gonna hit this guy?
Dave:And part of me is like, for sure I am.
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:If he doesn't leave my apartment, I'm gonna hit him. Yeah. But even thinking that way is privilege.
Michelle:It is. And it is a little American too.
Dave:Very much so.
Michelle:It is. Very much.
Dave:It's a
Michelle:little more American because,
Dave:like I think that's when my American comes out is when I'm really angry.
Michelle:Yeah. Because, like, and I my husband and I, we watch these, you know, videotaping police videos from The States, and then we see dumbass Canadians who don't know the law in Canada try to pull off the same things they've seen in The States. And it's like, oh, babes, you have to give your driver's license to the stupid cop. Like, you don't you don't get to, you know
Dave:If they have lawful placement to to stop you, you have to
Michelle:Honestly, look at the Albertans. The majority of them know the American constitution better than they know the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Right? So, you know, it it it's just such a, like, ugh, and these people get to vote. I know.
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:And and in Canada, it's an arrestable offense if you don't provide it.
Michelle:A %. So, like, we we kinda get a kick out of it. And so, like, in The States, I think you have a lot more like, you could, like, literally pull a gun on on a cop on your property to get off my property. And here, like, all we can do is put up security cameras watching them gun me down and murder me.
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:And no person calls cops killing a civilian murder even though that's really clearly what it is. Right? Like, here's a a a tall man who's white in his apartment walking over to the police. You don't get shot. Little tiny natives get murdered constantly.
Michelle:Yep.
Dave:For the same thing And for probably less. I will say even less than the same thing.
Michelle:Back. Like, it's, when I was growing up, my dad, he used to do what settlers call spanking.
Dave:Mhmm.
Michelle:So, like, getting a backhand out of, like, you know, thin air was absolutely my normal, %. You never talk back, you sit, you be quiet, you are, not heard, you are seen but not heard. Like that, I grew up in that. Right? So I think a lot of people who are settler colonizers do.
Michelle:And when, you know, you're an adult, you can't just backhand people. So cops just kill them. That like, that's that's the alternative.
Dave:Well and and I think it's it's such a dark it's such a dark example of this dark contrast between how some folks are treated and some folks aren't.
Michelle:Yeah. Right? It's like and I
Dave:mean, even when I told Darcy before you got here that I got up and moved towards him, he was like, woah. Yeah. And you you're still like, you didn't go to jail, and Yeah. I was like, not a thing. They got out.
Dave:Yeah. And I'm like, afterwards, of course, I'm like, fuck. This is why nobody wants to report, and why my friend probably never would look in, even though they have trial coming up. So my friend, this is the email I was gonna read before I forget because honestly, I nothing says I'm not listening to you better than this email. Yep.
Dave:So the night of the incident when I kicked them out of my apartment, the cops, my friend sent a message, an email to the original investigating officer. Mhmm. K? Yeah. So I'm gonna read both emails.
Dave:I'm just gonna leave out some details for everyone just in case because I don't wanna mess with stuff. So my friend sends this after these two cops are kicked out of my apartment, and and my friend has been has had some time to Process. To process and grieve. I'll just call it grieving. Sure.
Dave:Like, because it to me, it's just it's it's terrible.
Michelle:But Yeah.
Dave:Anyway, good evening. This is to a constable. Good evening. So I just tried to make a report about so and so breaching on the two days in January to so and so constable and so and so constable and they made me feel like they just brushed off the whole thing. I don't know how to go about the whole situation.
Dave:So you can see my friend is distraught. Right. That's the email. The response from the constable. Hello.
Dave:I hope you are well. I am not able to assist with the matter, and I am not able to review the report. If you are confused and or would like to know more about their decision, please contact the primary officer, the person who told you to go fuck yourself. Right?
Michelle:Yep.
Dave:So in parenthesis, you call the non emergency line with the case number and ask to be called and inquire. I hope this way you can be provided with sufficient information to why the officers did or did not lay any charges related to the breaches of the court order. If you are not contacted, you can ask to speak to their supervisor. Kind regards, constable. I don't give a shit.
Dave:Yeah. So in I read that and I'm basically just like, holy fuck, man. First of all, I hope you're well. That's your first sentence after that email.
Michelle:Yeah. Like Especially when you understand the gravity of what happened. Yeah.
Dave:And and so, of course, I then I filed a complaint with Calgary Police Service. Good for you. And I did that because it was my friend. Right? And and I my friend, whatever they decide to do is their business.
Dave:I don't know if they're gonna do anything. Sure. But I filed a complaint immediately the day after.
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:And then I was contacted probably a few days later by someone from Professional Standards
Michelle:Sure.
Dave:And then I talked to them on this last Tuesday Mhmm. On the phone. And so this whole thing, thankfully, has come full circle pretty quick because I can tell you professional standards doesn't give a shit either. Yeah. A %.
Dave:So, like and I and so I would never encourage anyone to report, obviously, because, like, there's just nothing in all my experiences with the police service, these kinds of offenses are never dealt with appropriately ever Yeah. Ever. Whether they're internal or external, for some reason, law enforcement agencies just have this thing where they're gonna protect the rapists.
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:It's built into the system.
Michelle:Can't help it.
Dave:And so then you add individuals who are maybe racist as well, then why would they give a shit? Yeah. Right? Yeah. So so you're seeing this from every level, and I'll tell you the email came from a female constable.
Dave:Oh, okay. Much. I'll tell you that much. So it's if as we're sitting here, we're not just picking on men because the system absorbs everyone.
Michelle:Yep.
Dave:Right? It will turn everyone into I can't comment on that because I'm not willing to speak against those two constables email and wonder, well, you don't do your fucking job either.
Michelle:Right. And that's why this whole fallacy of, you know, good cop there are good cops out there that
Dave:Bullshit. Not like this.
Michelle:Like Yeah. But where is an example of that?
Dave:Yep. Where? Not one. Even even the professional standards constable Yeah. That called me back, well, not really a constable.
Dave:Yeah. But I thought this person would be more empathetic Yeah. Based on who they are. And this person is not more empathetic. And so I'm not gonna say this person doesn't care.
Dave:I won't go that far Sure. Because maybe they did and they were trying to do all that they could do in their capacity within that within professional standards because that's their internal affairs. So within that, they describe to me what they could do, what what could possibly happen, and then of course what they're going to do which is give negative paper to this constable. So what negative paper looks like is nothing. It just it doesn't do anything.
Dave:You don't get doc pay. You don't get doc time. You don't get doc to anything. It just your commander will
Michelle:Can I just pause for one second? Please. So I'm just thinking of my own like my personal issue that I just had. I got hit from behind. Mhmm.
Michelle:You know, unfortunately, we had to lawyer up because that's the way insurance companies work. Yeah. And, you know, the horrendous things that they pulled out of my file to use against me in court of law. Like, at any point in time, can I pull that negative paper out of somebody's file and use it against them in a court of law? Because these are the people that are on the stand, you know, putting peeps people like me in jail.
Michelle:And yet that piece of paper, my lawyer can't just pull out of the, records and use against that police officer.
Dave:I can assure you that if a lawyer requested said paper, paper would be disappeared.
Michelle:Right?
Dave:Yeah. They'd be like, we can't find it. I know that.
Michelle:You and I know that. And that's that's the problem is that, like, at what point in time do people who supposedly back the blue and think so highly of our system and our justice system and the police, when will they understand this concept?
Dave:Yeah. Never. Never. Because it's the constant performative nature that
Michelle:so, like and I think what
Dave:I've seen because what you've seen is a similar within the police is that everything they do is performative. Yeah. It's to get us to stop asking questions.
Michelle:Yes. And
Dave:it's to get us to stop being, like, picking on them in in in their words. And I'll use their words. Yep. Why are they always picking on us? That's basically what I've heard
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:Has heard.
Michelle:This person told you about a breach. Yep. And you purposely went out of your way to retraumatize her, not help her, and then you wonder why there's so many missing and murdered indigenous women.
Dave:Yeah. And and and so, like, I'm gonna I'm gonna read some stats here for folks who aren't aware, right, I know you're aware of these things. So 3% of the population in Canada is indigenous, right, 50% of children in care are indigenous, so 50% of all children in care and I think this was one province if I'm not mistaken, but 50 of the children in care are indigenous children. So if that's and so we're talking about policing. And so there's this the saying that I've learned recently, which is over policing and under protecting.
Dave:Yes. Right? And that has historically for black indigenous and people of color in North America. Yes. K.
Dave:Over policed, under protected. Yes. You know, which is why there's 50% of them in care and 25% of the incarcerated people in Canada are indigenous So that and so folks now you're probably thinking, oh, that's because indigenous people are whatever, because you're racist, you're colonialist, you you you have this idea that somehow even though all the agency was taken from them, they still had it.
Michelle:Okay. And and let me just throw this out at people who really truly think that natives are are useless. So we just heard Dave tell the, example of the person in professional standards who can do their job to the capacity they can do it based off of the policies and procedures they have in place. When are people going to afford Indigenous that that same level of understanding that, we are in the position we're in because of the procedures and policies that are in place against us.
Dave:When are, like,
Michelle:when are people gonna get that?
Dave:Because they don't really believe that those things are in place.
Michelle:Yeah. I know. Because ignorance is bliss. And it's so blissful.
Dave:Yep. It's so blissful. Like, because honestly, I and don't get me wrong. I'm not defending the professional standards division because I believe they could do more Yep. Obviously, and that but that I also know that's not my place.
Dave:Like, but I do recognize they need to do more here.
Michelle:A %.
Dave:Because even with the professional standards person, I illustrated Mhmm. What just happened in our city with, you know what I mean, with an ex coming back to kill a partner, an ex partner. And I illustrated this, and I said, do you guys not do math, Like at all? Like is this for everyone else to do but you? Like we're the ones who have to accumulate the determinism that leads up to the murder?
Dave:Like we're the ones have to do that for you?
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:Like really you need me, nobody, fucking social worker to tell you that you know what can happen here. Right? Yeah. Like, you ignore these calls enough. This person's dead.
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:And and so, of course, my final thought to them was if this person gets harmed Yeah. I guarantee you, you will never hear the end of it from me
Michelle:Yeah. Exactly.
Dave:With this bullshit. Yeah. Because so I understand. And then I started reading Highway of Tears.
Michelle:Oh, that's,
Dave:Devastating. Okay. Devast heartbreaking. Yeah. Heartbreaking.
Dave:And I've read a lot of heartbreaking books in the last year, man, and this is this one hits really close to home because it's here. Right? Like it's it's it's in our country. It's just up north in our province, a big chunk of it. Like, it's terrifying, you know.
Dave:And so folks, like, try to understand that these the you know, you wanna justify police actions because of their their confinement or whatever you wanna call it. Yeah. And you wanna protect them. And I and I've heard lots of talk about protecting them. Protecting them.
Dave:They're, oh, they had such a hard job, and I'm like, you have no fucking idea how easy their job is. Like, if they decide to do it the way it's could be done, it could be much easier. Are there things that happen to them that don't happen to others? Of course, there are. But they signed up for those fucking things.
Dave:And, like, I I'm tired. It was funny because I was talking to my friend afterwards and they're and I was like, well, what do you think could happen? Well, of course, she's like nothing. Nothing will ever change. People hate indigenous women and people.
Dave:Right? Like and and I'm like, yeah, you're right. I I mean, it's it's wrong, but it's right. Right? Like, it's exactly why this will never change, not in our lifetime.
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:Because there's not enough people willing to be like, wait a minute. That doesn't make a cop good when they do that. Right? Like, it's kind of like if they didn't have to shoot me that night when I got off the couch and charged towards them like a guy who was gonna throw them out my house, Like, if they didn't feel unsafe then, what makes them feel unsafe? Is it just because the person's brown?
Dave:Yeah. Like and and that's legitimately the reason why.
Michelle:That that's it.
Dave:Yeah. And and so no wonder
Michelle:because they've been conditioned and taught their entire life to hate non white people.
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:And that is the truth. That is the reality. Yeah. And, you know, so, like, until people really address that within themselves, like, it's not gonna change, of course. But, like, to this is a interesting moment in time.
Michelle:So Justin Trudeau is, no longer the leader of the Liberal Party until a new one is voted on in March. So we still have, like, two months of this crap. He's not in charge anymore.
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:So the the candidates that are, you know, stepping up to the place, zero of them are talking about reconciliation. Zero.
Dave:Yeah. And he was and and, like and that's where people are like, oh, he didn't do shit for anyone. It's like, nah. That's not true.
Michelle:It's well, that Yeah. Is unequivocally not true. But the other part is is that, like, I'm I'm indigenous and, you know, it is there's no government that we're gonna like because they're never working with us. Yeah. However, obviously, I am a massive Justin Trudeau fan.
Michelle:You know, I've jokingly said that I'm more loyal than his own wife.
Dave:That very well could be true. The truth is
Michelle:is that he has been one of the best allies we've ever had. Mhmm. He brought to the surface so much education that was not there prior to this. Mhmm. A hundred billion times he could have done better.
Michelle:A hundred billion times, like, we've seen what he did with Jody Wilson Raybel alone. Right? Like, a billion times we could he could've done better. But this bar was so poor and so bad. And there are a lot of liberals that are like, well, pardon me.
Michelle:Paul Martin was wonderful. And Jean Chretien was Indian affairs minister, and I got my critiques of them too. But it is just Yeah.
Dave:I read about his his tenure at as a fucking indigenous affairs minister.
Michelle:He was the one that was the Indian affairs minister at the same time that Pierre Elliott Trudeau was prime minister. And, there's this really famous
Dave:Were they the ones with OCA?
Michelle:No. That was, Brian Mulroney that that around that era. So there's a a famous indigenous man who just passed, and it's Jodie's dad, actually. And there's a wonderful, video of him telling Pierre Elliott Trudeau that I can't believe my daughters, they wanna be the prime minister of Canada. And I and everybody in the room, because it's only white men with the a contingent of indigenous people, everyone's laughing.
Michelle:Like, the idea of an indigenous girl becoming prime minister, they're laughing like it's like the funniest joke they've ever heard in their life. Yeah. So that's how bad that racism is. Right? And like a lot of those folks are still alive.
Dave:Well, and a lot of
Michelle:those taught that hate to the next generation.
Dave:And some of them, if you ask them, they'd be like, no I don't hate anybody. Yeah, I know.
Michelle:They I just love my family. I know. I don't see color.
Dave:Yeah. Yeah. Oh my god.
Michelle:I know.
Dave:And we were taught to say that.
Michelle:Yeah. I know you were. Yeah. I know I had to even address my own anti blackness as well. Mhmm.
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:So Yeah. And it's, so needless to say, it led me to a couple of things, couple of ideas that I had because, obviously, the system is fucked. We and I know that I'm not gonna be the only one.
Michelle:It works perfectly.
Dave:It works perfectly. It's perfectly as designed.
Michelle:It's perfect as designed for, the upper class white male. It it is that's who designed it. It designed it for themselves. Mhmm. So anyone who is lower class, anyone who's woman, anyone who's a person of color, like We're queer.
Michelle:Right? We're all at the bottom of that socioeconomic ladder. So Yeah. Yeah.
Dave:And and and so, I guess, like, moving forward, what's the what do you think? Do you have any ideas on this, first of all, because I don't really have a solid idea, but, like, moving forward in terms of complaints against police. So I heard that in Vancouver, there's a group of people. Don't know what it's called. I can't remember the name.
Dave:I don't even know if they told me the name. But there's a group of people who help folks, like, usually, it's unhoused, other otherwise marginalized. I don't know if it's specific to racism or not. But to me, there's a whole there's a need for all of it. Right?
Dave:Because we know that the police criminalize the unhoused so they can abuse them. Right? They criminalize all these different elements so they can be abused. Right? And the and the public will be like, we they were bad.
Dave:Yeah. Right? So, like, literally public, pay attention to when you're told something's bad.
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:First of all, it's probably not. Like and and they may be obviously, there's gonna be, like, sensationalizing these things to make it seem so bad. Right? Like, you have to be so scared. I think what we really should be scared of is the police's lack of concern over sexual offenses, their lack of, like, diligence, their lack of in person to person crime when it doesn't involve a white person.
Dave:Right? Like, and and you've quoted many times evidence of this, and there's evidence out there for all of you to look for. And I'm of the ilk of Michelle now in my life. I'm like, you can go fucking look. Mhmm.
Dave:Because, yes, it's hard. Yes. It's but it's determined on you. Like, it's literally up to each individual to go find these things out. Right?
Michelle:Well, let I'm just gonna plug a library. There you go. Like, for real, what is stopping people from reading? Like, these phones that we have in our hand now are libraries.
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:You know, there's no excuse for this. Like, every time I hear someone in my life, you know, listening to something like an Alex Jones Mhmm. Like, why would you waste your time and energy on something like that when there's so many wonderful things to be listening to instead?
Dave:Well, because all Alice Jones is doing is getting you mad about things that aren't even real.
Michelle:Right? And they're lies. That's the other thing that upsets me is that, like, people will believe somehow Justin Trudeau is responsible for the crime that we see today
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:And not look at their own police force, their local officials. Like, we have Sean Chu is still a counselor sitting on the city of Calgary, you know, decision making table.
Dave:And he was convicted, wasn't he, of
Michelle:No. The the charges came out That's right. Or or, the allegations came out after the election. And, you know, and that's the whole thing. Like, it why is it every time, anyone talks about, you know, evidence or or whichever and puts it out there, suddenly there's a slap lawsuit Mhmm.
Michelle:You know, by conservatives? How is that? How is that okay?
Dave:That's I mean, that's what Why
Michelle:are you voting for people who purposely do this?
Dave:I I believe I believe that it's because more people know that they have friends who are rapists
Michelle:Mhmm.
Dave:Than don't.
Michelle:A %.
Dave:Right? Because I used to think that, well, no. I know my friends. Like, they're not like that. Like, and and most of them probably weren't.
Dave:But, like, as you have a if you have a big friend group, chances are somebody is
Michelle:A %.
Dave:Especially if they're men. Because if one in is it one in four women are assaulted or
Michelle:I would say that's even higher.
Dave:Yeah. I I and I'm these are old stats probably. Right? Like but throughout their whole life, more than probably I would say one and two, I would say. I would say half, but that's me because I've got to understand how how our society and our systems have put women in that vulnerable position to begin with Yeah.
Dave:Right, where they first of all, if you don't get married when you're like, back in the day, you didn't get married. You couldn't have anything. Yeah. Right? And and, like, we think that was so long ago.
Michelle:It wasn't.
Dave:Not even a hundred years ago. Right? Like No. And I Well, like
Michelle:and just to put that into perspective, last residential school closed in 1996. Yeah. I graduated high school in 1994. I was the first person both from black and or, indigenous and white side in my family to have her license. Me.
Michelle:Wow. I was the first one.
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:I was the first one to have a credit card in my personal name. Mhmm. You know, Like, these are massive things that have recently happened. The same time that women were allowed to finally have a credit card, indigenous people were finally allowed to have a lawyer in the seventies. Like, just just to give, like, that context.
Michelle:Right? I know my child romanticizes a lot the idea of moving back to where our people are from. But I know I'm sure not getting an abortion there
Dave:or
Michelle:access to, you know, a rape kit or so And even when I'm in a place like this that I should, that doesn't necessarily mean I would. Yeah. Right? So, like, just because we can do it doesn't mean we will do it. Like, you've already illustrated now with this breach.
Dave:Yeah. And and that's the that's really the essence of it, is that even though the person could, they didn't. Yep. And they didn't for very obvious reasons in my mind. Yep.
Dave:They were very obvious. It was it was not some policing philosophical argument. It was basically, I don't wanna fucking do it Yep. Because that guy sounds pretty much like my buddy. Right?
Dave:Like, who well, what would I do if someone accused my buddy? Well, hopefully, you'd listen to the person and say, fuck. Maybe my buddy's a goddamn psycho. Right. Right?
Dave:Like, maybe my buddy's a fucking sick sick person. Right? Instead of going, fuck her.
Michelle:It is the culture and like you can see it especially in hockey, you know, that culture is there. Sports in general that that
Dave:Oh, the misogynist culture. Yeah.
Michelle:Exactly. So it's, it's just a huge part of that Yeah. Concept and colonialism and that's why, indigenous women are always, you know, the most victimized, the least helped by police. Like, it's terrible. It's terrible.
Dave:And it's it's even worse than, like, than what it looks like on the surface because, seriously, what it what it's really telling us is that the system doesn't value indigenous women Yeah. Or black women or people of color. And and there's no value because if they had a value, then we'd have to treat them like victims. Yeah. And instead of that, we're gonna treat them like there's no value so we don't have to treat them like they're victims.
Michelle:Actually, the Because January book club that I was talking about, Sites of Truth, really talks about how well, the settlers society dehumanized indigenous people Yeah. So that they are not considered people worth grieving. Mhmm. They're not, worth burying.
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:They're not worth the paperwork to tell their family they died.
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:Like, that's how much hate against us has been embedded in the system.
Dave:Yeah. And and it's it comes out it comes out in like evidence when you're when folks are victims, witnesses, or file complaints or any of those things. Right? It really it really becomes evident, and and reading through the Highway of Tears, like, recognizing that at the same time that some of these indigenous girls and and young women were going missing, there was, like, all kinds of manhunts for the missing white women. Right?
Dave:Like and and there just wasn't the same response.
Michelle:I'm gonna give a really good example that has always really, like, stuck with me. I went to Montreal with the Liberal Convention to, advocate for the, missing and murdered indigenous women policy that we had. And, this was the exact same time that Lorenda Loretta Saunders went missing. And because when you see her picture, she looks like a white woman. The CBC, the national media, the CTV, everybody was like, oh my god.
Michelle:Where is Loretta Saunders? Where is she? And everybody was worried about her and there were manhunts. And the moment it came out that she was indigenous, everything stopped until they were recovering her dead body. Yeah.
Michelle:Yeah. And that and that And that was at the same time. So it, like, it's imprinted on me.
Dave:Well, because it's imprinted in our society. Yeah. And no wonder and no wonder folks who've been racialized are con and especially black indigenous and people of color, it there's just no way for folks to get a fair shake No. Or if you're visibly queer. Right?
Dave:Like, because visible visible queerness enters into that same similar realm, right, where the system ostracizes you because you're different. Hundred percent. Right? Because you're not straight white.
Michelle:Here's the thing and you see it and and that's why we have this concept called pick me girls. Women who are not placating to men, a pick me girl, like, they see that, they sense that. They're like, well, why don't you want my attention? And, because I'm raising a a lesbian, they're the ones who pointed out to me all the time how, everything is male centered focused Mhmm. And how, you know, the society, everything is that way.
Michelle:So when men aren't used to being treated like the center of the universe in every room, every situation, they get really offended and really upset. And what is the queer community? It is sexual diversity and understanding everyone is equal. But that's not what, straight men like. They like being the top dog.
Michelle:They like being treated as such. They want everybody pining for them Mhmm. When they're ugly, they're stinky, they're violent, they're misogynistic, they're racist, they're horrid people. Mhmm. I I wish you could have a lot of straight men that aren't these things.
Dave:Mhmm.
Michelle:But time and time again, that's who it is.
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:And that's who's proven yeah. That's who kinda, like, perpetuates this idea that that's who's doing
Michelle:it. Yeah.
Dave:And you
Michelle:see it, a lot of the queer community don't have a lot of respect for the white male queers because that's their only level of intersectionality and discrimination they've ever faced.
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:But they still perpetuate that still against the lesbians, the trans, the people of color. Mhmm. Because as white males who are gay, they are still used to being the top dog and having that male centered, you know, focus on through them.
Dave:Which is super strange, especially in the queer community. Yeah. Because we know, like, just sitting in conversation with most queer people realize that lesbians and trans women are the ones who really kicked off the whole thing. I know. It wasn't straight.
Dave:It wasn't gay white man.
Michelle:We still have the Trans and Dyke March.
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:And that's why that is the one I tried to support over Calgary Pride. Mhmm. Because Calgary Pride was typically ran by white males. Mhmm. But now it is starting to change a bit and they are starting to be more inclusive.
Dave:I heard this. Yeah.
Michelle:So, you know, there is starting to be a little bit of change and a little bit of movement. But to be fair to the old guard, I'm just gonna say this. Until Justin Trudeau, there and Kent Hare fought hard for it here in Calgary until everybody kicked him out, there was no structural funding for pride parades across the country. None. Zero.
Michelle:Zilch.
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:And it was this Liberal government that put into effect ongoing money. Now my critique of that, which cops should love, is almost all of that budget goes straight to the same to the city for policing. Almost all of the budget. Yeah. So the old guard was doing fundraising all year as white men.
Michelle:They were using their privilege in a good way. They were doing, fundraising all year so that they could pay for the cops to take care of the pride parade because they weren't allowed to march, you know, and get the city's approval without having the police there and that costs a lot of money. So all of the money was going straight to the cops and never to the actual queer community. So it was an absolute just you know, reality for the rest of the queer community to be like, fuck you, Prizes. We don't wanna have anything to do with you.
Michelle:One, we fucking hate cops. That's why we have pride. Yeah. And two, you know, we don't need the city's fucking approval. Just march.
Michelle:Yeah. It's fucking our pride. Yeah. Exactly. Right?
Michelle:But you can tell the tone in the police from the, Trans and Dyke March compared to the, Pride. Because Pride, they're all paid. But for the Trans and Dyke march, they're not, and they treat us like crap. If there's, somebody who's a little slower because they have a cane, they are on them like that. Like so that's why it's so important for any organizer to know people with disabilities to the front because we have to protect them.
Michelle:You know? Like, there's none of this because the cops, they don't mind beating up disabled people.
Dave:Oh, they don't care.
Michelle:I don't know what kind of loser gets up in the morning thinking it's okay to be just disrespectful to disabled people. But not only are they allowed to, but they have a badge and a gun that allows them to do whatever they want with no accountability.
Dave:Same kind of asshole that wakes up and says, I'm gonna do a good job and then goes out and kicks a stroller with two kids in it.
Michelle:A %. Same kind of guy. Yep. So, like like, that's the but but to be fair to that guy, like, Jason Kenney or the other conservatives, they're like, now we should give that guy an award. Yep.
Michelle:And that and that's the way they see it. Right?
Dave:So And so how and how could we possibly expect them to see it differently Yeah. When they see it so differently?
Michelle:Yeah. They get rewarded for treating brown, black, indigenous people so poorly. They get rewarded for it.
Dave:Yeah. And and I I was thinking about it, like, how it would have played out had they shot me.
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:You know what I mean? Like, how did it have been first of all, they'd be sued without question. My family would be like, you fucking losers. Like, you come over to interview a victim and you end up shooting our son Yeah. Yet well, your son was getting aggressive.
Dave:Oh, I wonder why. Yeah. I wonder why that happened. Yeah. Right?
Dave:Well, because, you know, there's and and don't get me wrong. This is also out of my privilege. Like, I get this. Like, that even the fact that I had the audacity to tell them to get the fuck out Mhmm. Is because I'm so privileged that I couldn't imagine them not getting out.
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:Right? Don't get me wrong. There's a part of me that's like, what if they don't leave? Yeah. Okay.
Dave:Then I gotta do what I'm gonna do next, which I would have done because, partially, I'm an American
Michelle:Yeah. Yeah.
Dave:Yeah. And stupid. Yeah. But also because I was I was raised like that to be like, no. You protect people who can't protect themselves.
Dave:And if the bully happens to wear a uniform, you punch the fucking bully with the uniform on. That's what we were told. Because, I mean, obviously, my dad couldn't tell us much different because he was done a couple of charges for beating up RCMP guys when he was young. Good for him. Exactly.
Dave:And he always felt bad about it, and I was always like, dude, you put him in their place, man. Like, most of the officers that we will encounter, that most folks, especially if you're unhoused, an addict on the street, or, racialized, like, you're gonna encounter cops that don't think you're human. Yeah. Like, legit. Don't.
Dave:And you can you can argue %. Till you're blue in the face. You'll pass out before they believe you. A %. Yeah.
Michelle:There's no sense. That's why you smile and nod. That's why a lot of people think I'm so pleasant because I'm like, there's no sense engaging with this person. Yeah. Just smile and nod, keep going.
Dave:Yeah. And it I mean, I I get it. Like, I get why, you know and my friend was just so distraught.
Michelle:Oh, yeah.
Dave:It's because it's just like this is life. And for me as a white guy, I'm seeing this glimpse of life that I don't see every day
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:And I'm appalled. Yeah. Like I'm disgusted by it. Yeah. But still I'm a white guy.
Dave:Yeah. Right? And my friend is still being harmed and it's like and so we so I do what what us progressive some progressive white people would suggest we do. We complained. I complained And so I did the You followed process.
Dave:I followed process.
Michelle:And that's what we're always told. So that's why for the last ten years, I've spent so much time following process to prove to people. You can follow process. Look at how zero, like, change has happened.
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:Now I know that's not true, and I know we've we're changing hearts and minds and yay. But but but for real, if I go missing today or my child goes missing, no one's gonna care
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:Unless my white father makes that call. Yeah. And that's not okay.
Dave:It's not. It's the most un okay thing that I can pinpoint in our culture right now.
Michelle:I know. We've actually talked about moving out of country for that reason. We've talked about how here we are treated like the worst in the world. But in any other place in the world other than America, we would be treated like humans.
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:And I don't know what that's like. I have lived here for forty eight years. I don't know what it's like to be treated as a human.
Dave:Wow. Yeah. And that fucking freaks my heart too.
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:Yeah. And and then, like, the fact that that that you're my friend, but also that it also means that millions of other people are treated the same way.
Michelle:A %. Right? Yeah. And that the only time I feel safe is when I'm with my indigenous community. That doesn't mean they are all entirely safe.
Michelle:No. For sure. It just means that they're gonna hate me for a very different reason than, you know, a colonizer.
Dave:Yeah. Yeah. And and and it's probably refreshing to be Yeah. You know, to have someone As
Michelle:a person.
Dave:Yeah. To be seen as a person who has views and Yeah. Exactly. Perspective and Yeah. And I I think that's the one of the dehumanizing parts about that treating victims that way or anyone that way Yeah.
Dave:Anyone for any reason that way. Like, I don't first of all, I don't understand how hard it is to just be like, tell me what happened. Yeah. Yeah. That's such an easy thing to say.
Dave:Yep. Tell me what happened. That's it. And you could still, at the end of it, say no. Right?
Dave:But at least give the person some agency. Give them a chance. Like, hear them out. Right? Like, hear out all the reasons why this person's afraid, but you won't do that.
Dave:Right? Like, you wouldn't even listen to how afraid they were. And and to me, that's not that is a part of the system, but it's also that individual. But we also have learned that punishing the individual does nothing for the system. The system just spits them out and collects another individual.
Michelle:A %.
Dave:Right? Like
Michelle:But they are having the audacity to complain about the lack of people willing to sign up now.
Dave:Of course they are.
Michelle:And I think, that is probably one of our greatest victories that we can talk about because, you know, people now know, do you really wanna be a cop?
Dave:Yep. You wanna know what it means to be a cop? I'll tell you what it means to be a cop. Yeah. It means turning in your neighbor.
Dave:It means being a fucking sellout. It means being a class trader. It means all these different things. And on top of that, most people are gonna assume you're a racist. Like, you know Or misogynistic.
Dave:Yeah. And misogynistic because we like, if it's a secret to people, that law enforcement culture is a rape culture. If that's a secret to you, y'all are living under a rock.
Michelle:Well, how many reports paying attention. How many reports do you possibly need? Yeah. Like, how many more?
Dave:Well and I think the truth is is that when those reports come out, for for most people, a report is too big. Yeah. Right? They're like, oh, I have to read the whole report. Well, why don't you just at least read the outcome of the
Michelle:report? Leave the recommendations. Leave the last page. Yeah. Conclusion.
Dave:Conclusion. Here's the conclusion. This fucking system is racist. It's racist on purpose. It's ableist on purpose.
Dave:It's anti queer on purpose. It's all these things purposefully to maintain the system as it is. Right? Which, I mean, if you ask a cop and you said, do you think it's working as it is? And they'd be like, no.
Dave:But you think they'd be willing to change? No. Like, we're not the problem. Right? Like, we're not the problem.
Dave:Government's the problem.
Michelle:Yeah. I know. Yeah. It's so problematic. I don't know.
Michelle:And it's hard for me because there's a couple of police officers that are indigenous that it's like, you know and I I've just said to them, when you're done with this stuff, our community will be there for you to help you heal. Yep. Right? Right? Because we know they're gonna get hurt.
Michelle:We know they're not gonna be treated well. We know and we know. Yep. But they don't know yet. The way I didn't know when I wasn't around my dad, I would be treated differently.
Dave:Yep. And some of them don't even know when they're being told.
Michelle:Yeah. Exactly.
Dave:Like, they just can't see the Yeah. Connections, right, between the now and the potential future and where it's coming from.
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:Right? Which is
Michelle:You know, most people don't read after they're done, school though.
Dave:Yeah. And that's fascinating. I love it.
Michelle:I I love reading too. Yeah. I do know a lot of, settler family members who are avid readers.
Dave:Mhmm.
Michelle:But they only read, like, settler colonial, like, centered Mhmm. Characters and concepts
Dave:And fiction.
Michelle:Fiction. Yeah. Right? As opposed to something bigger
Dave:Mhmm.
Michelle:Which is too bad because it's like
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:You know, you have the opportunity. Yeah. And and, you know, in the ADHD world, there's this conversation about how, you know, if you're not interested, then you're not doing it. And what's ironic is that people who won't read outside of the settler colonial mentality, they they're not considered hyper focused and they're not considered neurodivergent at all. They're considered neurotypical.
Michelle:So, like, literally to me, literal typical means, like, conforming to settler colonialism the best you can. And and I think that that is
Dave:That would appear neurotypical, though.
Michelle:It would appear. That's the odd thing. Like, that should be the neurodivergent, not the rest of the world, not the rest what do they call it? The global South?
Dave:Yeah. The global South. Yeah. What a and what a what a system. So folks, just pay attention out there and and read some shit.
Dave:I know it's hard to read. Don't get me wrong. K? Like like I said, I'm reading Highway of Tears. And do you think I'm enjoying it?
Michelle:No. Well, but you know what I do tell people who are like, well, you know, reading is ableist. I've had people tell me that, especially once in the queer community. And I'm like, nothing like showing your, you know, privilege. Thanks, guys.
Dave:Mhmm.
Michelle:But bigger picture is that there are all sorts of mediums
Dave:Yeah. To get the impression. On a podcast.
Michelle:Yep. Right? So listen to, you know, Highway to Tears if you're you you're just not gonna read it. Mhmm. Listen to it Well while you're vacuuming.
Dave:Yeah. I'm not gonna sit here and tell you that I don't listen to books. Of course, I do. Right. I read them.
Dave:I listen to them. I I try to get the information however I can. Right?
Michelle:And same with watching TV. You've never watched a TV show or documentary in your entire life. Like like, people are are willfully ignorant. People are willfully going out of their way to not know these things. Like, there are, you know I don't blame them.
Michelle:Fictional ways to even talk about the highway of tears. I was a little annoyed the other day that, Jodie Foster got an award because she played a shitty ass cop in Alaska.
Dave:And the fact that her co her co or actor didn't get it. Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle:Yeah. And so, like, here here we have an actual TV show, but, you know, it is a white woman centered cop. So even for for men, that's like, well, that's so unrealistic and that's just DEI and that's just like I'm like, cop shows are propaganda bullshit anyway.
Dave:Yeah. From start to finish.
Michelle:From like, there's no like, when have you heard a good outcome of investigation by police on literally anything ever. Like, no wonder they have to make fake TV shows to show good sides of police because we don't see that side.
Dave:Well, and it's in the world. Of course not. Because we that's not the reality of it. No. They're portraying in a lot of these shows, they're portraying what they wish policing was like.
Dave:A %. It's a % a fantasy. Yeah. %. Like, if you know anything about it, you watch these shows.
Dave:That one in particular is not the best one to watch if you're looking for, like Oh, my poor husband. He really
Michelle:got into those that bone show once upon a time. And I watched it for two minutes, and I'm like, oh, that's unrealistic. That's unrealistic. That's not true. That's not true.
Michelle:And I'm like, sorry, I can't watch this anymore. Mhmm. But, you know, he thought it was a little more legit because it was based off of these books or whichever and I'm like, no, man. This is Copaganda one zero one. You know.
Dave:Well and and all you have to do is spend some time around cops doing their job every day to know that it's just copaganda. Like, because it's not the reality. Right? And and then you even go into it. I don't know about yourself, but when I went into it, when I was working with them really closely as a noncop, right, that's when I was like, woah.
Dave:This is fucking weird. Because, you know, I never felt like a cop anymore because I wasn't. But hanging around them, you just start noticing the weirdness. Right? And, of course, as a white guy, the first thing that occurs to me is like, the guy that showed up at my house, the first thing that occurred to me because I'm a white guy.
Dave:So I see a white guy doing white guy shit. Mhmm. I'm like, what a lazy asshole. Mhmm. That's the first thought was he's just being lazy.
Dave:Yeah. So now I'm thinking about all the times I talked to other people in law enforcement and they've said, oh, yeah. I work with this guy. He's a lazy hump. Right?
Dave:So how many lazy humps does it take for us to realize they're not lazy humps, they're racist humps. Yes. Right? So, like, this that whole thing kinda unfolded, like I said, and and all my all my privileges came fucking pouring out, especially when I thought, yeah. You know what?
Dave:I'm gonna get up and scare these fuckers out of here.
Michelle:Yeah. Well, there is something
Dave:like You have to have privilege even to think that.
Michelle:I know. Right?
Dave:Like %.
Michelle:Yeah. %. Like, I I, had a friend over the other day who is a police officer, and I haven't really chatted with him in a long, long time because, as you know, once you transfer, etcetera, etcetera. Right? But I was willing to help him because he was writing, like, a thesis for, like, academia.
Michelle:Mhmm. So, of course, I was willing to help him. You know, I I just wish that there was a better recourse for for so many other people and him included. And I know even if you have, you know, 20 academic research papers that say x y z, that doesn't mean you're going to elect an official that cares about evidence enough to implement it, which is why I like Justin because he believed in that. And, you know, like doctor Jane Filippont, anyone should, read her book first and foremost.
Dave:Especially if you're
Michelle:a settler, it's called Health for All. Okay. So, she was, an ally to Jody Wilson Raybould at the time and, left politics at the same time she did in solidarity with her, actually. And so I really had a, you know, idea that she was a big, advocate and ally until I met her and got to chat with her and then I don't feel that way. But regardless, that's a different story for a different time.
Michelle:Her actual book really focuses on, what can be done, what should be done. And when she was the health minister for the short period of time, she was the one that allows me to have Narcan now. She made the policy change so that Narcan could be more distributed Yeah. Without a prescription yet all of the doctors in my life expect me to get one because they're racist. So it doesn't matter but, you know, she she made that change to to save lives.
Michelle:Mhmm. And because she was, an esteemed medical doctor, you know, the briefing that they had to give to her in order to put forward bills and such, like, 50% of that was eliminated because she's like, no. I know. No. I know.
Michelle:Like, she understood the the jargon because, technically, I could be elected, and I could be given the health portfolio. But as a non medical doctor, obviously, I'm gonna need to be briefed on terms and understandings and studies and evidence before I would feel comfortable saying this bill is solid. I feel comfortable tabling it in the House of Commons. Right? Yeah.
Michelle:You know, so she was the first health minister with credentials of a health minister should. Right? Who knew a lot of the problems, etcetera.
Dave:Does she have more credentials than RFK Junior?
Michelle:A hundred percent more. Yes. Yeah. That's a sad
Dave:Sorry. It just got me for thinking of that meme with the worm going around in circles. A
Michelle:%.
Dave:But I mean, that's you see, that's such a contrast, right, between having qualified people and just having a person because you know their name.
Michelle:A %. Right? %. So I everything a lot of people don't think highly of Justin, but he knew who to put where in order to try to create more change.
Dave:Right?
Michelle:And having an indigenous woman is, in in the position of attorney general. Like, that was massive. And she did if you read her three books, which I did, she very clearly lays out the things that she did in her first book of what she was able to accomplish, in as justice minister, as the attorney general for Mhmm. The government of Canada. She she points it out, this is what I was able to do.
Michelle:Yeah. And, so that that's why we're all so proud of her that she was in that position to be able to do that. And and conversely, like, you just look at, somebody like, he he's just leaving office now, Harjane Sanjane. He's a he was an actual military guy, and, he was a defense minister. You know?
Michelle:So qualified person in a qualified position.
Dave:Mhmm.
Michelle:You know, I'm not a big fan of, Bill Blair because of the g twenty that happened in Toronto Twenty Years ago now already, and he was the top cop that allowed all that to happen. Yeah. But he's the public safety minister. Of course. So, technically, this is probably one of the first times we've actually had, like, a, you know, right person for that job at that time.
Dave:Yeah. So Well and it's interesting when we're talking about the other systems because that's just something I wanted to leave people with as well. Something that's called soft policing. That's it's not soft at all. Right?
Dave:But it's called soft policing because it's not necessarily done by the police.
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:Right? So
Michelle:It's somebody you and I.
Dave:That's right. There's and there's the there's the child welfare system, which is another policing system. Yep. And I don't know if if people people's out there, their understanding of child welfare system, but child welfare workers have more power than cops when it comes to kids. Like, they legit have some power there.
Dave:Right? And and so that's one of those soft policing, probation, parole, like what are the what are the lengths of probation and parole and conditional sentences for black indigenous people of color versus white.
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:Right? Because I know most of the stats are incarceration. Right? And, obviously, we know we have to change that system too. Right?
Dave:Because that system is working perfectly as well. Yeah. It's an apartheid based on apartheid. It's and the prison system down in The States, like, all these things are connected together. So when you're thinking
Michelle:Even up here and I'll say teacher student because I see it all the time.
Dave:Okay.
Michelle:And now we even have police in in schools which makes it a billion times worse. Yeah. Right? And all of the and I was trying to make fun of it on one of my TikToks actually talking about, John a McDonald. Mhmm.
Michelle:Soft policing. Again, you have principals, you have Yep. The board, the school board, all in collusion of white supremacy. Yep. Like maintaining the status quo, maintaining, an unsafe place for black and indigenous kids, Chinese in this case as well.
Michelle:You know, John a McDonald hated everybody.
Dave:Oh, yeah.
Michelle:So unless you were a white male, like, the idea of keeping that name Mhmm. Just shows the level of white supremacy Yeah. That's embedded in the system by soft policing.
Dave:Yeah. And and then to go one step another step forward is including the medical police. Hundred percent. Right? Because you're you just gave us a bunch of examples of how the medical system has tried to police you
Michelle:Yes.
Dave:In this just in this one case. Right? And so, of course, we you and I, you know well more than I do, that's been your whole life.
Michelle:Yeah. Yeah.
Dave:This is just a microcosm of this playing out now because you were able to see that. Right? You were able to see what they were writing, and and how I would say how ashamed they should be, but they won't be, because they don't care. Like, they're they just write the notes, and they're like, I give the shit. Right?
Dave:Like, it it's awful. And that's another way where we fail each other, right, as in med medically, obviously, with health care and stuff. That's a big for some people to make that political to me is kinda gross. Right? Because it's like, well, what are you gonna do?
Dave:Just let people die? And some people are a % okay with that.
Michelle:Well and and the other thing is is that that's what they already do to us.
Dave:Yeah. A %.
Michelle:Like Yeah. I I'm only expected to live till 68. So that means I have less than twenty years left now. Yeah. So I want you to think about that.
Michelle:What would you do in twenty years knowing that you only have twenty years left? That's it. You know, I have a child who's not, like hopefully, will be graduating high school here in the next couple of months and, hopefully, starting their life in post secondary and then hopefully starting their life outside post secondary. I I pray that I get to see that. Yeah.
Michelle:But statistically, I am more likely to go missing. Yeah. I am likely to be murdered. I am likely to be killed by police. I am like you know, like, it the list goes on and on.
Michelle:If I have a heart attack or stroke, you know, they'll be treat me as a as a drunk native when I get to the ER, not as a person that needs,
Dave:And as an indigenous woman, you are six times more likely to be a victim of violent crime. A %. Yeah. %. It's and and it's, and and that doesn't diminish how likely a woman is to be affected.
Dave:But that's, like, the added element of being a woman of color, right, and and specifically an indigenous woman because there is in North America, specifically, not that there isn't elsewhere, but I haven't spent much time there talking to people about indigenous Yeah. Like, histories. Right? But here, it it's just a matter of I don't know where our I mean, I guess, they're they're doing it because they want people just to shut up. They want people to stop talking about this.
Dave:Right? But, like, we there there can't be. You can't we can't stop talking about it because it hasn't gone anywhere.
Michelle:Mhmm.
Dave:Right? And that's and to me, that's
Michelle:We still don't have a meaningful k to 12. Yeah. Like still
Dave:It's a continued harm. Right? The continued harm of education.
Michelle:Progressives, and I use air quotes and and sarcasm when I say that word, who are in charge of schools, who are in charge of curriculums, who are in charge of academia. Like, I know people in academia that go out of their way to bad mouth me because I called them out on their bullshit.
Dave:Yep. And that's the way it's gotta be though. Yeah. Right? Because there's like there's and I I same with me.
Dave:Right? Because obviously, we're both around progressive people probably quite a bit.
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:It it's just that there are some folks that are when they say progressive, what it really means is not too far. Yeah. Exactly. Don't make me too uncomfortable.
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:Right? And and I've learned that too because I And you're seeing
Michelle:that in the Liberal Party right now and I I bring it up again because you're not seeing conversations about, progressive, policies when it comes to human rights Mhmm. In general. Like not just indigenous people and reconciliation Yeah.
Dave:But in general.
Michelle:But human rights in general. Yeah. Yeah.
Dave:And I agree. I think there's been a especially in North America over the last couple years, there's been a real downslide Yeah. For human rights, right? Because if you can if a foe if a person can look at a trans person and not see a person, well, there's a problem.
Michelle:A %.
Dave:Right? Like A
Michelle:%.
Dave:And I mean that's the essential problem for folks who are black, indigenous, and people of color is that they're not treated like humans. Yeah. Right? Like, not given the same agency as other humans, not given the same, like, respect as other humans. And this is a systemic thing.
Dave:This is again, I'm going back to that. So, yes, this cop that came to my apartment to take this statement was a was a was lots of things. Did lots of things wrong? The whole thing was wrong, really. Right?
Dave:But we know that it goes beyond one cop. Mhmm. Right? Like, I mean, just look at what's happened in The States. Right?
Dave:Those those cops that get charged and convicted, nothing changes. Nope. Those police departments, Chicago, those police departments are still fucked. Yeah. Right?
Dave:They're still constantly having people, advocating against them Yeah. For abolish abolition Yeah. Because of what they've done. Right? And I understand where oh, I shouldn't say that.
Dave:Do I understand yes. I understand where the popular culture is coming from, like, oh, we just need to move forward. Right? But what folks don't realize is that when the when the top of culture says that, it's because they they're tired of having to do stuff. Yes.
Dave:They just want you to forget about it
Michelle:Yep.
Dave:So that we can recycle the same shit. And in twenty more, forty more years, we'll be doing the same fucking thing again. Mhmm. Right? Yeah.
Dave:Anyway, I just we just finished this whole conversation, and then we got back to the beginning.
Michelle:A %. A %. So I'll just emphasize to folks, the national inquiry is public. It's online. There's 231 calls to justice, and there's multiple podcasts on about this.
Michelle:There's multiple documentaries. There's multiple fiction, books as well as fiction TV shows. So, like, it's not like there's not information to learn more Yeah. About the injustices that indigenous women are facing. And, I I just have to bring up indigenous two spirit as well because, so folks who are are queer and indigenous, we had roles for them in our societies that have been eliminated through imposed Christianity.
Michelle:And, I would argue that they are even like, I'm at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder in Canada Mhmm.
Dave:But I
Michelle:would argue they're even further below because of the lack of stats to, associated with two spirit in general and the lack of reporting systems, the lack of, being able to document in general the two spirit. We know that one of the most disproportionate amount of unhoused people that are on the streets are queer community. Mhmm. Once you add that racism in there and colonialism, it makes it that much worse.
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:Like, these are people not getting the services they Mhmm. They should in any capacity. Yeah. And, so and I also wanted to leave people with one more thing, and that's the treaty right to health. And this is where my critique of Jane Philpont would be is that she likes to appropriate our spiritual culture, but they don't talk about our literal treaty right to health, which has been denied repeatedly over a hundred and fifty years.
Michelle:So for folks who are sellers, like, this is a broken treaty promise that they have the obligation to fix, which means you have the obligation to vote for people who are one aware of this and to who are pushing to fix it. And right now, we don't have that in Alberta, and I would even argue by the NDP. You know, it it is very hard for me as an indigenous person knowing which indigenous voices get the platform but are ignorant of something like, you know, the treaty right to health.
Dave:Yeah. So No. And that's important. Thank you, Michelle. Yeah.
Dave:And and thank you for coming on and talking with me and and sitting with me as we go through some stuff that is obviously awful to talk about and and very much, like, extra awful for you, I am sure. And, and I'm sorry that you have to go through that to have these conversations.
Michelle:Well, and I'm sorry that your friend had to go through this again because I know just as you know this one person, there's such a long list of indigenous women in my life that have gone through the same thing.
Dave:Yeah. My friend's just one woman.
Michelle:I know. Like Every interaction that I think about and health that I I've seen and witnessed and experienced myself, let alone my friends, like, it's just system after system after system of oppression against us, and I don't think people understand the gravity of it.
Dave:No. They don't. They don't. And I don't and I because I think it's so big
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:I think it's almost impossible for people to grasp. Like, unless they can kinda put together some, like, theoretical learning with, like, books, reading books Yeah. About what's happened, what it's like now, but also experiencing it in the day to day.
Michelle:Well, and, you know, obviously, I have a podcast, but there are multiple media, indigenous medias available. Like, there's Beyond My Podcast. There's, APTN News, for example. Like, make that a part of, like, a weekly inclusion so that you can hear the news from an indigenous point of view as opposed to a settler colonial point of
Dave:view. Yeah.
Michelle:Right? And all the hot takes from all the new podcasters that are basically telling the same thing over and over again for settler colonial politics still excluding indigenous, still excluding the diversity within the indigenous community on political thought as well as, you know, our nation to nation politics as well as Indian Act politics, like, you start compounding that. And I think that that unfortunately is why Canadians are like, la la la la la la la la la la.
Dave:Yeah. It's
Michelle:like, well, then you're ignorant.
Dave:Well and and it's easier that way. And and, like, that's the you know, I get it. Like, I I get it. I think probably there's maybe years ago, there was a part of me that was like, man, I wish I could've just stayed in the dark. Yeah.
Dave:Right? But now but now I'm at a place where I I'd rather be in the light and and treating I mean, whatever happens with life, with work, with whatever, doesn't matter. As long as we as long as I can at least try to continually bring these things to light. Right? I wish I didn't have to.
Dave:Like, I wish my friend didn't go through that. Like I understand. It's heartbreaking to me to that, because when that one incident, what what's heartbreaking really is the the reminder of all that she's been through. Mhmm. It wasn't just one incident.
Dave:Right?
Michelle:And then here's the irony. It was that there was all this money given to cops so that they would have a new indigenous liaison to help with, like, the, you know, cases of missing and murdered indigenous women and and such. But it's never that person that's called to help this person. Yeah. You know, I feel like a massive waste of my time to try to help police understand these things.
Michelle:But, like, your friend not only should be given indigenous people to share the story to, but have a place of police to sit and smudge and tell the story Yeah. And have an elder there so that they can tell their story and have it respected and properly documented. But as settler colonial people who are just happy to exploit, steal, they don't care about doing that.
Dave:And and that was evident because there are things you can do as a police person. Hundred percent. You can
Michelle:They just choose not to.
Dave:Yeah. Because you and I both know they can connect to them to victim services or victim support, other supports of different kinds.
Michelle:Well, and as somebody who did a lot of vigils and helped a lot of indigenous families in those moments, I can tell you that victim services is equally racist and it's not accommodating two indigenous people and it has Which makes
Dave:sense why they've never been offered.
Michelle:A %.
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:So and and the other thing is that they're so limited in how they work. So if you're a white person, and you're victimized on a Thursday, on Tuesday or Wednesday, they may contact you. And usually, again, this is a who you know what you know. So if the officer who came to see you, if you're white and they know you and they like you, then maybe you'll get that phone call sooner. You You know, that that's really the way the system works.
Dave:And that's a % how it works Yeah. Without question. Yeah. So thank you again, Michelle.
Michelle:Yeah. Thank
Dave:you. You're welcome. It's always a pleasure and an honor. Yeah. I don't know.
Dave:I'm gonna let people take away what you left them with because what I have to leave with people might not be as hopeful. Because I'll be honest, like, as the privileged white person
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:Watching all this unfold like it was a fucking movie. Yeah. Right? Like, it was legit. Like, this is how people have told me this like this for years.
Dave:And all of a sudden, I'm seeing it, like, with such clarity
Michelle:Yeah.
Dave:Right, like the lightning bolt between the eyes. I think, like, if you're out there because I I'm with you. If if a police person needs support and they come to me, I'm gonna try to support them. Yeah. Now I that support does not look like me cosigning their bullshit.
Dave:That support looks like real support. Yeah. Like, I want you to be okay. Yeah. I really want you to hear.
Dave:Right? I want
Michelle:your soul to be Yeah.
Dave:I want your soul to be okay because I know the whole reason I went to work with them in the first place as a volunteer was because I thought being supportive of them on the job would help them do a better job. Yeah. Like, I legit believed it. So did you. Right?
Michelle:Well, like, I had to have hope. Yeah. You have to have hope. And now that I have no hope for the police and the justice system
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:Well, like, I just focus my hope on other things like Yeah. Indigenous youth and how to navigate the system despite their bullshittery. You know, like, that's where I put my hope and my dreams and my energy
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:Because this is not worth my time anymore.
Dave:And that's where I'd like to leave with people is this idea that I was thinking about and I was told that there's something similar in Vancouver. The idea was for a group of people, maybe they're professionals, maybe they're just advocates or activists or whoever, but a group of people who'd be willing to help folks who are unhoused, racialized, maybe they're queer and they've been victims of police violence or whatever whatever the case may be. My idea is to have a group of professionals who can help folks navigate the complaint system. Right? And maybe even be like a buffer for the complaint system.
Dave:Like like, the in in this instance with my friend, it was better that I complained Mhmm. And I knew that because I'm like, no. If the if my friend complains Yeah. It can get much worse for her.
Michelle:A %.
Dave:But for me, I'm so loud and I'm so, like Yeah. People have seen my face and they've heard me say these things. Yeah. I don't feel as scared.
Michelle:And, also, I have I'm white. You are a preacher's son. Right? Yes. And there's that too.
Michelle:Yeah. Right? And you have brothers who are white like you. Yeah. You know, like, it it it's wild to me that that's like, you have to have this social standing Yeah.
Michelle:In order to be taken seriously.
Dave:Yeah. It is wild. And and even to be, like, given the human decent respect, decency. Yeah. Right?
Dave:Like, just to be treated like a person, you have to be, like, all these things and white's part of it. Mhmm. Right? And especially in those situations where we're engaging with with the police. So that night, I wanna tell people, don't do what I did.
Dave:Yeah. K? Because what I did will get most people killed or beaten up or arrested. Yeah. Right?
Michelle:Because Well, and in our case, raped. Women get raped by the police regularly
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:And there's no mechanism of accountability there.
Dave:That's I'm so glad you brought that up because that just brought another stat to my head. Yeah. When when while reading the Highway of Tears, there was a whole detachment of RCMP that were accused of sexual offenses against children. Oh, yeah. Nothing came of it.
Dave:Nothing. Just so just so you're wondering out there why I'm so hard on the RCMP and on policing now, it's because I know these things.
Michelle:Yeah. Yeah.
Dave:That they nothing has fucking happened. No. Those eight to 10 officers are just working somewhere else if they're still on the job.
Michelle:Yeah. Exactly.
Dave:But chances are, if they retired, they got a fucking parade. Oh, %. Which is why my friend said, because I was, like, so mad. I I was thinking of, like, horrible things that us white people think of when we get mad
Michelle:Yeah. Yeah.
Dave:And and vengeance starts coming in our brain. Yeah. We start thinking of diabolical ways to make people suffer.
Michelle:Yeah. Right? See, and and as a native woman, I'm like, it's bad medicine to be thinking, but there's a piece of me that was like, who am I gonna
Dave:haunt? Well, I
Michelle:know who I'm fucking on. Quick, you know.
Dave:Oh, yeah.
Michelle:I gotta I better make a plan.
Dave:You'll you'll be figured out. You'll just know exactly where to go. Yeah. So if you're out there, you're listening, please, like, don't respond how I did. I wish I could have been a better witness for my friend and more supportive to my friend because what I what I ended up doing was what I wanted to do.
Dave:Mhmm. I didn't think about my friend. Well, I did. I was doing it because I was so mad for her, but I wasn't thinking about the potential downside to her afterwards Yeah. Right, which is where now she's vulnerable.
Dave:Now these constables know Yeah. And and and so we've seen examples of this. And like we're just talking about, there was a hold attachment, and this wasn't back in the forties or the sixties. I'm thinking of the nineties. So if you're looking doing your research out there, you take a look, and I think it was the nineties when this happened.
Dave:The hold attachment was accused. Yeah. Not one of them was fired. Yeah. Well Nobody even believed the accusations until ten years went by.
Michelle:Right now, we have a Calgary Police Officer who whistle blew what's happening in Calgary and it, again, slapped lawsuits everywhere. This person had to take down posts. Really? Yeah.
Dave:So Was that the HR person? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dave:So Which is why we didn't mention any names today.
Michelle:Yep. And that's, like, today. Yep. So, you know, for people to think that, you know, that corruption is not continuing, it's just a shame because, like, your friend is a victim now, not just of this insane insane ex that's, like, obsessed with them, but also now the police.
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:And now the justice system. And there's a lawyer somewhere going, slap lawsuit against this Indigenous woman because there are actual places in, Saskatchewan where it's 100% Indigenous women in the jails. And so Wow. Yeah. So to me, when I think about your friend, you know, this settler colonial society hates women like us so much.
Michelle:So much easier to throw us in jail. So that's why, like, even for me to see Leonard Peltier be released under Biden's, executive order, like, I was shocked. I did not think that was gonna happen in my lifetime because we are political prisoners in Canada, and yet people don't see it that way because they're like, oh, well, you committed a crime. Okay. So let let's break down this crime Yeah.
Michelle:Of imposed poverty, of imposed, institutionalization, and you're mad at this person for stealing a sandwich after you rip them away from their home and their community. Yeah. You've beaten them. You've given them no place to live, and you're mad at them for stealing a sandwich. Yeah.
Michelle:That's not a political decision of policy coalescing into a moment of, like, let's steal a sandwich.
Dave:Well, and then to to and I I know we could talk all day. I I gotta let you go because you have other stuff to do. Yeah. But it's like the the the introduction to crime for most indigenous kids is shoplifting or what was the other one?
Michelle:Which is a nice way of saying stealing food because food is being withheld
Dave:Yeah.
Michelle:And it by policy.
Dave:You can see it. Like, you can almost see it when you're when you're reading these books. Right? You can see how it's all connected and all a part of the systemic, like, soft policing of indigenous people. Right?
Michelle:%.
Dave:Yeah. So over policed and under protected without question. Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle:Thanks for having me. My pleasure. Thank you.
Dave:Well, thank you for listening to another episode of Voices in Recovery podcast. We greatly appreciate your support, your listening, your sharing. Also, don't be afraid to check out the Native Calgarian podcast. You will not be disappointed. Michelle Robinson is a wealth of information on so many different subjects.
Dave:It's hard to narrow it down to one, but I will, absolutely say that podcast is about sharing indigenous people's stories and realities to us. And so I encourage you all to check it out, the Native Calgarian Podcast by Michelle Robinson. Also, check out wall the walls down collective here in Calgary. And if you're able to, like just like us, they need donations too, and, of course, we do. We need support just like everyone else so that we can continue to provide free counseling.
Dave:What was down collective, they require it for lots of different things. Every Friday, they have a pop up. Yes. I believe it's three to four nights a week. They have a on call number you can call if you're in distress.
Dave:So that's the Walls Down Collective. You can find out the number through them. And Stop the Stack y y c, if you are able to, you can support Stop the Stack y y c through their website through their Instagram page they have an Instagram Facebook and I believe stop the stack has a TikTok and walls down may or may not have a TikTok but they have Facebook and they have Instagram. The native Calabrian podcast Facebook Instagram TikTok, I believe, just about anywhere, and, of course, you can find her podcast on Patreon. There's also one last one that I wanna mention is Black Pride y y c.
Dave:We work with them regularly, find it incredible what those folks are doing, And, of course, they have invited everyone that listens to our podcast to come out at any time to their events. So don't be afraid if it's a Black Pride YYC event. Don't be afraid, like, they're they're inclusive of everyone. Stay tuned for more stuff, and thank you again for listening and supporting