Ep 23: Rabbit Care & Sepsis Awareness with Jo Hinde RVN

Show Notes

This week we sit down with Jo Hinde – an incredibly inspiring lady! 

Jo tells us about her passion for rabbit care and how LagoLearn Ltd came to be such an important educational resource for anyone working within the veterinary industry. We also discuss her life outside of work, including the Goodwood Festival of Speed and times when she has badgered parliament (Pun intended 😉). She also shares her experiences with sepsis and how important it is to raise awareness of this life-threatening infection. 

'Jo has worked in the veterinary industry since 2007 and has always had a special interest in rabbits. She owns and runs LagoLearn Ltd, providing rabbit specific CPD to veterinary professionals in both the UK and internationally. She also spends a significant amount of voluntary time working with charities and parliamentary groups to highlight animal welfare and is proud to be Senior Vice President of the BVNA (British Veterinary Nurse Association.) Jo attends many events, gives lectures and writes articles for the veterinary industry as well as the general public and schools. She has received several awards over the years including the Blue Cross Veterinary Nurse of the Year in 2014, an RCVS Innovation Award winner in 2017 and the IFAW Animal Advocate Award in 2017.'

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What is Veterinary Ramblings?

Tired of boring, clinical veterinary podcasts? Join Veterinarian Dr Julian Hoad & Anaesthetic Expert Mike Brampton, as they interview inspirational guests each week who are related to the veterinary world. Veterinary Ramblings is like going for a drink with your favourite work colleagues after a long day - we’ll make you laugh, inspire you and perhaps teach you something new!

Mike Brampton: To all of you
joining us tonight or today or

in the morning, or to everybody
who is joining us all over the

world.
Welcome to the next episode of

Veterinary Ramblings.
So yes, start the show after

we've started rambling.

Julian Hoad: We've rambled for
about half an hour already,

folks, we're well into it.

Mike Brampton: Yeah, you can
bless your cotton socks, and

feel really grateful that the
production team have cut it all.

So you just joined us at this
point in time.

So I'll raise a glass to our
production team, thank you very

much indeed, on behalf of all of
our listeners, having not had to

put up with the previous half an
hour.

So we've got a guest tonight

Julian Hoad: Yeah, yeah, really
excited about tonight's guest.

I know, I'm always excited about
our guests because they are

always brilliant.
But here is a guest who has

literally come back from the
grave just to be on Veterinary

Ramblings

Mike Brampton: Indeed, indeed.
This particular guest was due to

be starring and recording stuff
for you all, I think it was

probably about 10 weeks ago.
And we'd got it all set up and

everything was ready to go. And
they just disappeared off the

scene completely.

Julian Hoad: We thought it was
something we'd said.

Mike Brampton: Well, I was sure
it was something you'd said

Julian Hoad: Usually, usually is

Mike Brampton: Usually would be,
but we will ask her more about

this.

Julian Hoad: We shall indeed.

Mike Brampton: A lady who
particularly likes fast cars,

Julian Hoad: and old men.

Mike Brampton: No old things,

Julian Hoad: old things, old
things,

Mike Brampton: Old things, I
don't think she likes old men.

Julian Hoad: I put my special
shirt on everything.

Mike Brampton: Well, I can see
that but never mind.

Yeah, lovely flowery shirt. Lots
of bright colours.

Julian Hoad: I'm wearing my
rabbit skin underpants because

she likes that, doesn't she?

Mike Brampton: I don't think Jo
would be very keen on that

because

Julian Hoad: Hold on, I'll look
at a bio.

Mike Brampton: Yeah, Jo is
particularly into animal welfare.

Julian Hoad: She's a vegan.
Absolutely.

Mike Brampton: She's a vegan.
She's into animal welfare. She

has a strong interest in rabbits.
And in fact, it was how I first

met her. I'd known about Jo for
a long time. But she invited me

to speak at the advanced rabbit
anaesthesia conference.

I did a couple of experiments,
including one on Dead Space live

to illustrate the importance of
dead space.

And what I did was nearly kill
my volunteer live onstage

demonstrating the importance and
the significance of dead space.

We'll ask her about that maybe.
I can see she's in the waiting

room

Julian Hoad: It's Jo Hinde

Mike Brampton: Ex president of
the BVNA.

Julian Hoad: Indeed

Mike Brampton: So let's get her
in. And heres Jo!

Julian Hoad: Jo!

Mike Brampton: Hi, Joe. How you
doing?

Jo Hinde: I'm good. Thank you,
you?

Mike Brampton: Excellent. Thank
you very much indeed. Julian and

I were just rambling on as we
want to do.

Julian Hoad: We do that.

Jo Hinde: Surely not

Mike Brampton: He said that
you're into old men.

I corrected him and said you're
into old things. That's the

Goodwood Festival of Speed and
antiques and stuff that you

particularly enjoy is it not?

Jo Hinde: Yeah, absolutely.
It's, fast cars is the thing.

You may say fast men, but I'm
yet to catch any

But yeah, fast cars. So the
Goodwood Festival of Speed is,

it's a bit of a passion of mine.
I do enjoy going to that and

seeing that.

Julian Hoad: Are you a member?

Jo Hinde: I'm not a member. I
was actually on the waiting list

to be a member for four years to
join the GRRC. The Goodwood Road

Racing Club or whatever.
And then it came through at a

very inopportune time that I
made it to top of the list when

I could no longer play that game
anymore.

So unfortunately, not a member.
But nevermind.

Julian Hoad: I'm a member. I'll
sneak you in some time.

Jo Hinde: Oh, well, you would be
wouldn't you? It's not what you

know. It's who you know.

Julian Hoad: Absolutely.

Mike Brampton: For our American
viewers and listeners, the

Goodwood Festival of Speed is a
aerodrome with a motor racing

circuit running around the
outside.

And a good old stately home
Goodwood house in the grounds

and every year, they put on two
well, they do two main events

don't they?

Julian Hoad: There's the
revival, where you have to get

dressed up in ludicrously old
clothes. So I just get whatevers

at the back of the wardrobe. My
1930s collection.

Mike Brampton: Yeah, and then
there's the Festival of Speed

which is more of a racing
environment, is it not Jo?

Jo Hinde: it is. Yeah. So they
have a lot of different

paddocks. It is a very unique
event actually, because there's

very few red ropes and barriers.
So usually you can get right up

close to all of the cars,
there's f1 cars. There's

motorbikes. There's old things,
new things.

There's brand new supercar
paddock is where I hang out.

That's my favourite is in over
there, and all the drivers and a

lot of the owners as well
and it's a real kind of hands on

event and there's an auction in
the house as well. Which is

really nice to attend the
auction and see some real prize

pieces going up for sale

Julian Hoad: And you've got to
be very careful to fold your

arms.

Jo Hinde: Yes, absolutely.
Have a scratch.

Mike Brampton: Have you got your
sights set on taking over from

supercar Blondie?

Jo Hinde: Oh, my goodness. I
mean, as if I could fill those

shoes. I don't have the
dimensions. shall we say. to fit

that role.

Julian Hoad: What's your
favourite car? If someone were

to say look, here's a supercar

Jo Hinde: A Nissan GTR NISMO
edition that is my favourite.

Julian Hoad: I believe, maybe,
is it Jeremy Clarkson's or the

hamsters?

Jo Hinde: Oh, I don't know.
Actually. I don't know. I can't

imagine it would be Clarkson's
but he's not that keen on

Japanese is he?

Julian Hoad: Do you know i
think, oddly enough, its James

Mays favourite.

Jo Hinde: Oh.
Thanks Julian right are we done

with this now.

Julian Hoad: Have you driven one?

Jo Hinde: No, not yet. sat in a
few but not driven it. I'm late

to driving actually, I've only
been driving six years

Julian Hoad: Right

Jo Hinde: Yeah, yeah, I've
always been chauffeured which

has been lovely. And I've not
had to drive.

Julian Hoad: My favourite, my
absolute favourite would be an E

type jag, now they are not as
fast

Jo Hinde: Classy

Julian Hoad: They are buggers to
start sometimes so I've heard,

but I drove one once around
Goodwood, one of those driving

experiences.
And it was absolutely amazing.

absolutely incredible.

Jo Hinde: And the noise from
them, I think, it's like this

revolution of electric vehicles.
I mean, we need it, I'm a big

fan of it for the environment.
However it's such a loss to lose

those engine notes. And it's not
the same when it's piped in as

music.
And you can pick which, if you

drive a Tesla and you can pick
which engine notes you want and

you think that's

Mike Brampton: Can you really?

Jo Hinde: Yeah, yeah,

Julian Hoad: yeah, yeah, you can
get to the sound like a Robin

Reliant if you want

Mike Brampton: Awesome!
God. Oh, I didn't realise that!

Jo Hinde: All you need to do
Mike is you just need to put a

CD in your car and you can play,
you can have, whatever you want.

Mike Brampton: Does it change as
you speed up and slow down does

it actually?

Jo Hinde: Yeah. Supposedly,
completely recreates it, its

just mapping it really and you
pick which car you want to sound

like. Yeah, yeah. Well, not you
personally, obviously you don't

sit there.

Julian Hoad: Well, I, I do. No I
don't. But what I used to do, I

used to have a two CV so this
is, you know, way, way ago. And

two CV and I'd drive it to
college at potters bar.

I drove up on a Monday morning
and drive down on the Friday

night on the M25. And the thing
about two CV is that their

brilliant cars absolutely
amazing gearboxes, but they're

not very robust.
You can't lock them properly. So

well at least I couldn't lock
mine, so I didn't have a stereo,

because I had a stereo and I
brought it and it got nicked.

I got another one and it got
nicked that night. So I thought

after that I;m not going to
bother with a stereo.

So what I did was I had one of
those harmonica holders and I

stuck around my neck to play the
harmonica while I was driving

along.
And it was all okay until I was

driving back on the M25 one
night much, much like tonight,

where its peeing down and my
windscreen wiper often didn't

work.
So I was perched on the very

front of my seat, holding the
steering wheel, leaning out of

the window with my squeegee
wiping the windscreen.

I'm playing a little song on the
harmonica, I suddenly noticed

this sort of flashing light in
my latural vision.

And there was this policeman
matching my speed, he was going

very very slowly. And he just
looked at me and went

He said "I have no words for how
stupid that is. Promise me.

You'll leave the M25 now and
never, ever get on again."

Jo Hinde: See, that's why you've
always got to keep emergency

string because you can tie the
string on the wipers and just do

this, from inside the car,
I have been in a car and had to

do that. And luckily I was only
the passenger, not the driver.

But yeah, it was a thing. Alfa
Romeos that definitely don't

like the UK definitely don't
like the rain.

Julian Hoad: They love rust.

Jo Hinde: They do love rust

Julian Hoad: Well, I think we've
pretty much done cars to death

haven't we, bearing in mind its
Veteirnayr Ramblings not Motor

Ramblings.

Mike Brampton: We have already
on numerous occasions being

compared to the Top Gear boys.

Jo Hinde: Oh.
I'm not gonna say who is who I'm

not gonna go there.

Julian Hoad: We're twins
separated at birth

Mike Brampton: It's not the
current Top Gear guys either.

Julian Hoad: So, you're into
rabbits in a bit of a way,

aren't you?

Jo Hinde: I am rather keen on a
bunny or two, absolutely, yes.

It's been a passion of mine my
entire life really, I had them

as a small child. I thought it
was wrong as a very small child.

Why is it kept in this tiny
hutch. So Dad diligently went

and made a non small Hutch for
it to live in this kind of you

know, castle, and we did the
best we could.

And obviously we fed it muesli
food and did all the things that

you're not supposed to. And
there wasn't vaccinations and

nutrients and things back then.
But life evolves.

And yeah, so there's always been
a passion for rabbits. And when

I got into the veterinary side
of things, because again, I

always wanted to be a veterinary
nurse. But when I left college, I

couldn't afford to take minimum
wage. I needed some extra money

to help the family out.
And so I went into more normal

work and did some other bits and
pieces and diversifications.

And when I finally could afford
to get into veterinary, nobody

wanted to do rabbits, because
they just died and everyone was

I thought, that's the species
for me. So, so yeah, that's how

scared of them.
that came about. And tried to

champion them ever since really.

Mike Brampton: I was explaining
to Julian, how we first met. You

very kindly asked me to speak at
the anaesthesia conference.

Jo Hinde: Yeah.

Mike Brampton: And how I nearly
killed my volunteer doing a live

dead space.

Jo Hinde: I mean, absolutely
brilliant. If only we had it on

video.

Mike Brampton: Got that point
across that too much dead space

can be dangerous.

Jo Hinde: Absolutely. Too much
dead space can lead to dead.

Yeah,

Julian Hoad: Absolutely. You say
you've championed the course of

rabbits, I think you really have
and, and you've been to some

extent recognised for that,
haven't you?

You were awarded the Blue Cross
Veterinary Nurse of the Year in

2014.
Very, very high accolade. The

RCVS Innovation Award in 2017.
Yeah

And the same year the the IFAW
Animal Advocate Award.

So congratulations Jo, really
really well deserved. And what a

feather in the cap for
veterinary nurses in general,

but you particularly.

Mike Brampton: I'll raise a
glass to that, what you're

drinking tonight in Jo?

Jo Hinde: I have a very exciting
cherry cordial and soda water.

So sadly, ill health has meant
less bubbles in my life, which

is really not a good thing.
So yes, I'm on the softs, but no

the awards, it still doesn't
kind of feel right. You know, I

just feel like I'm doing my job
and living my life and, and just

trying to, you know,
raise standards of welfare

through education really, that's
kind of my thing. And I think

you know, when you are in a
position where you can reach

more people.
So being a veterinary nurse, for

example, you get to speak to a
lot of owners, I do think we

have a duty, certainly a moral
duty, at least,

to impart as much education and
wisdom as we put as we possibly

can. And it's not about trying
to make people mini vets

or trying to make owners self
sufficient without vets. It's

just if we empower them with the
tools that we've got to, to try

and help understand,
do body condition scoring and

understand how to do weight
clinics at home, in conjunction

with your weight nurse.
We are effectively building

communication, building trust
with our clients. And then we're

seeing these animals in a better
condition, they're not going as

far, so we can help more just by
spreading a bit of information

and it's not releasing trade
secrets and all these sorts of

things. It is just you know,
sharing the information and and

just really helping so

Julian Hoad: Absolutely because
believe it or not, vets and

nurses actually want pets to be
healthy.

Jo Hinde: I know revolutionary.

Julian Hoad: If they do this,
they won't get ill, we won't

make any money. We love healthy
animals.

Jo Hinde: Absolutely. And that's
why we do our job, you know, we

And, and certainly in my rabbit
world, you know, we're so keen

want them to be healthy. That's
why we're so keen on

preventative medicine.
on husbandry, because that

really is the cornerstone to
health.

So, so pushing through with
that, and that's not just owner

education that's trying to
change government and

legislation, and what can be
sold and what can't be sold.

And a minimum sizes for
enclosures, and all these

different things are all part of
this jigsaw, that kind of need

to be tackled to,
to improve the awareness and by

doing that we improve the

Mike Brampton: There was quite a
campaign last year wasn't there?

welfare.
On size, and companionship?

Jo Hinde: Yes, yeah. Yeah,
absolutely.

And as the BVNA, we were very
happy to sign up to that joint

statement with the BVA with
regards to companionship in

rabbits and how important it is.
And we are, if we look back,

even over the last 10 years,
rabbit health has really come on

leaps and bounds, or hops should
we say. It really has.

Yeah, I know too much time with
Mike.

Mike Brampton: Sorry Jo, Julian
does the jokes

Jo Hinde: Oh,
yeah, it really has come on

well, and when you think back 10
years ago, and we were talking

about muesli mix and how rabbits
should eat a pellet, not a

muesli,
And rabbit should eat hay. And,

you know, now we're having
conversations about urinary

issues, and bladder sludge,
as commonplace first things that

owners are saying on forums. So
we really have come a long way,

there's a lot of work still to
do, but we're definitely coming a

long way. And the PDSA paw
report is testament to that as

well. And something I'm very,
very keen advocate of,

and the results of the most
recent, trending because they're

coming up to their 10 year
anniversary of the paw report.

And some really good stats in
there as well, looking at how

things are getting better, but
there's still work to do.

Mike Brampton: What are the key
points that we should be looking

at to improve rabbit welfare in?

Jo Hinde: I think it's, as I
say, multifaceted. So I think

even though we work in the
veterinary sphere, I think we

need to look at the owner,
I nearly said owner penetration

then. And that is not what I
meant.

Julian Hoad: That's a different
sort of rabbit actually isn't it.

Jo Hinde: whole different
sponsor. We need to look at owner

engagement as well as what we do
within clinic and outside of

clinic. So I think again,
husbandry really is so

important, and getting that
right. And so we need prepurchase

appointments, which is a devil's
own job to try and get pre

purchase appointments for a
prized items such as a cat and a

dog,
let alone rabbits that often are

picked up on a whim. So I think
we need to do a lot of education

there. We have a big problem.
Well, yeah, problem actually I'm

going to stick by that, within
the veterinary field, that we're

not taught enough about rabbits
as we train as vets and nurses.

We generally, depending on which
University you go to, we have

very little training, rabbit
specific training, they are the

third most popular pet in the UK.

Julian Hoad: Yeah, I agree. I
qualified for 24 years ago. We

had, in my training, we had one
day on rabbit medicine in the

five year course.
And we expected them from day

one graduation to be able to
treat them adequately. I have to

say I'd been on many courses
since then,

and read around the subjects and
gain a lot of experience. But I

will still be happy to refer
rabbits for more complex

procedures on to specialists.
I think that's a very

underutilised tool in the
veterinary field as well, the

acknowledgement that rabbits
have specialist nurses,

specialist vets
because they have speciality

Jo Hinde: Yes, very much so and
the main thing is they're a prey

species not a predator and we're
used to dealing with predators.

And we're taught in general how
to deal with predators apart

from if you're talking about
large animals and you know, hoof

stock and things but,
our whole body language, our

whole way of working, everything
needs to change for these prey

species. And, and yeah, we just
don't talk enough.

We don't communicate enough. And
I find in the exotics world,

we're a lot happier to share our
opinions and to,

I can pick up the phone and I
can speak to a rabbit specialist

like this. And vice versa, they,
you know, a normal clinician,

run of the mill GP clinician,
Can go through referrals, or

they can, there are some tame
exotic pets out there that are

more than happy to take emails
and calls about

'oh, my God, I've got this, what
do I do?' And I think we're

better at doing that in the
exotic side of things, then then

we are in the mainstream cats
and dogs really.

But I think I'd like to see more
veterinary teams do that, I'd

like to see them open a book
more, be honest to the client

and say, "Actually, you know
what, I don't know, "

"I really don't know, however, I
will find out for you." And that

can be within a matter of
minutes, or that could be a

matter of weeks.
But either way, just be honest

with the client. And go you know
what, I'm happy to see Flopsy.

But it's not my area of
expertise, you know, I can give

pain relief,
I can give the emergency

treatment that we need to get
you through whilst I get

information from another
colleague, and also use your

team.
So I'm a nurse, I'm not allowed

to diagnose. However, I have a
lot of private knowledge. I

teach all sorts of rabbit things,
including surgeries that I'm not

allowed to actually do myself, I
teach vets how to do them,

students how to do them.
And I think we need to remember

that team cohesiveness and go
actually, there may be someone

on that team that is a nutrition
specialist,

we're not allowed to be a
specialist, a nutrition expert,

or a rabbit expert or diabetes
expert. And again, use that

whole team,
go okay, I might be the vet, but

actually, let's have a clinical
discussion about this and see

the best thing we can do for our
patients.

Julian Hoad: Yeah, absolutely.

Mike Brampton: You own and run a
company called LagoLean don't

you Jo? I do indeed
What was the motivation behind

LagoLearn? And what are you
aiming to achieve with it?

Jo Hinde: So LagoLearn was
twofold. One. As I said, I

always wanted to be a veterinary
nurse.

Mike Brampton: Right

Jo Hinde: So I got my dream,
struggled through my training,

had an awful training practice,
a terrible clinical coach, I had

a motorbike accident during that.
So I was in a wheelchair with a

busted up leg for some of it. So
it was a real slog trying to get

through my training, got through
my training, brilliant.

Few years into that, going on a
home euthanasia visit of a 32

kilo Labrador. And vet refuses
to help me lift said dead dog

back to the car,
going through the house as

nicely as you can, pop goes a
disk in my spine. Roll on 12

years now, something like that.
And I've had four spinal

operations and still waiting for
a final one to fuse through my

vertebrae. And so basically, at
one point,

I woke up in the morning and I
was paralysed from the waist

down because I've gone into full
cord recliner.

So that was a bit of a wake up
call and no more bending or

lifting thus forth. So that does
not make for a very good or

useful veterinary nurse.
So what the bloody hell do I do?

I've just got, you know, the job
I want. So I thought, right,

let's diversify. I'm not going
to give up because I'm not one

for giving up.
And I thought what can I do? I

thought well, those that can do
those that can't teach so I'll

go and teach. That's what I'll
do. And, and so obviously my

wheelhouse is rabbits, I found a
vet that was willing to come

into it with me. I work with
Ivan Crotaz, who isn't a

certified specialist.
However, he has a wealth of

rabbit knowledge. And we talked
together internationally on a

few different lectures and
things and we just come up one

day
and we said what are we doing?

You know, let's do this together
and let's make it a thing so

that's how LagoLearn was born.
And basically we do teach, until

the rona came to town, we do
teach face to face globally

around the world.
And its aim is just to bring up

to date factual and useful
rabbit medicine tips and

surgical tips to veterinary
staff, anyone that wants to learn

so if you work on reception, you
can come to a surgery course, we

don't care because we see the
importance of everybody

understanding what's going on.
So for example, and another

reason for taking that stance is
as a nurse, there were many

large organisation CPD events
that I wished to attend,

that I was not allowed to attend
because I was not a vet. And I

said Oh, can I pay it and just
stay to the side and not do the

practicals? No, you can't.
Whereas in my mind, if a nurse

is allowed to learn what's going
on with that surgery, then that

nurse is going to know
where the potential points are

for increased analgesia is going
to be needed, even though

they're not doing the wobbly bit
of surgery themselves, you know,

everybody understands a bit more
what's going on. So I think

there's value and if you want to
learn, we'll teach you.

Julian Hoad: You're absolutely
right. And I'm involved with the

BSAVA is, as I've mentioned, a
lot of times before,

and and we're we're trying to
put together the programme for

the Congress 2021, which is
going to be virtual.

And we would very much taken the
decision that all lectures

should be team appropriate. They
aren't going to be, these are

vet lectures, these are nurse
lectures

These are team appropriate. And
there's a huge amount, as you

say, of crossover cross
training, almost.

The vet could do a absolutely
brilliant job of surgery on a

dead rabbit because he hasn't
spotted the signs that he could

have used to alert the nurse to
deterioration.

Yeah, similarly, the nurse could
do absolutely fantastic job of

monitoring an anaesthetic, but
not appropriate, perhaps to that

surgery. So there's got to be an
integrative approach,

Jo Hinde: Very much so, and one
of the things that we've been

doing as LagoLearn is, we teach
together.

So Ivan and I will often teach
together and we've moved that

through because we're sponsored
by Supreme petfoods.

And we've moved that through to
lectures as well. So at BSAVA

twice now I think we've done and
what we term and it takes two

lecture.
And it's usually Molly Varga and

myself. And, and we had one
today actually, that, sadly,

I've not been well enough to do,
I was due to do one with Molly,

but her nurse Craig stepped in
and did it today. And they did

an amazing job.
But yeah, so it's the it takes

two and basically you have the
nurse and the vet presenting at

the same time on the front of
the screen.

So you go through rabbit
dentistry or whatever the case

may be. And you do both things
together.

So that, you know the vet says
there bit, the nurse say there

bit, and again, it just brings
this cohesiveness of actually

how you do need to have clinical
discussions.

It's not just, you know, this
one person does this and someone

else does that. And it's good to
learn as well.

And I had this, for a few years
now I've run a lecture on

holistic anaesthesia. And I've
done it in multiple places

around the world, which has been
amazing.

However, if I was to call this
course, husbandry, or the talk

husbandry, I just get nurses,
and when I changed it to

holistic anaesthesia then I got
vets attending

and I got vets attending and
telling me multiple times. "Do

you know what, this is all stuff
that I never knew. I don't want

to know. But I need to know."
"And thank you because actually,

it's very beneficial moving
forward."

And I think that's another thing
we've got to remember that we do

need to be clever with marketing
as well. So as much as we can

offer these things,
we've got to be clever and

entice stubborn vets and
stubborn nurses and stubborn,

you know A&A's and receptionists
in to

to try and learn stuff that they
don't think they need to know.

And they maybe don't want to
know. But it's actually really

important to the whole thing.

Julian Hoad: I like that, that's
really nice. Cheers, everyone.

Mike Brampton: Oh, cheers.
Cheers Julian, Cheers.

Jo Hinde: I'll just sit and have
my you know

Mike Brampton: Well, we'll drink
for you.

Jo Hinde: Thanks, that has been
done before. So yeah.

Mike Brampton: You mentioned
there, you crashed out on a

lecture today because you wanted
to appear with us this evening?

Jo Hinde: Absolutely.

Mike Brampton: I was saying in
the introduction how we'd got

you booked. It seems like a
lifetime ago. And you were just

about ready to join us on the
show.

And do a recording. And then you
just disappeared?

Jo Hinde: Yes. Poof! Just like
bad magic.

Mike Brampton: Yeah, it seemed
like it and it took several

weeks before I was able to catch
up with you. And to find out

that you were actually seriously
ill in hospital.

Jo Hinde: Yes, it's been
emotional as one film would say.

And it's been a real roller
coaster. Actually, I had a very,

very simple procedure to have a
contraceptive coil put in.

Really oversharing but there we
go. And I was one of the one in

1500 that it perforated my
uterus. And it's a known side

effect but very, very rare.
And things just spiralled and

got worse and worse. So the
clipnotes version is that I

ended up with pelvic infection
which went to peritonitis

which led to, I had a
pneumococcal infection in my

bladder, I had silent pneumonia,
two of my lower lung lobes

collapsed.
I had to have emergency surgery

because we didn't know what was
going to kill me first, the

sepsis or the actual operation
to kind of take the pus out of

y abdomen.
So I was staved for three days,

while my chances of survival
went from 30% to 40% to 50%,

we went right 50% we'll do this,
we'll give it a go. They took

800 mils of pus out of my
abdomen, and stiched me back up,

sent me back upstairs.
And then I went into septic

shock. And so tried to die
again, which is rather rude,

three times in total, my body
decided it had enough and I'm

just too stubborn and held on.
And it all resulted, it ended

with me being on multiple drugs.
I mean, I ended up I was on four

different types of IV
antibiotics plus oral

antibiotics.
Some days, I was taking 28

tablets three times a day, as
well as IV medicines

exceptionally poorly and ended
up in a psychotic episode break

for three days as well.
So the sepsis was trying to get

to my brain. And my body had two
choices, it could either go into

a coma, or it could go into a
psychotic break

and have lots of audio and
visual hallucinations. And

unfortunately, it chose the
psychotic break, which I would

have actually chosen the coma
over

because it was the most horrific
thing I've ever had in my life.

I've never been so scared in all
of my life. Part of my psychosis

was that people were trying to
kill me

and the doctors and nurses were
trying to kill me as well. So in

that setting that can then be
very difficult to trust anybody.

All of this happens whilst I was
on holiday, down in in lovely

Dartmouth. So I was taken to
Torbay hospital where the staff

were amazing.
But again, due to the corona

being in town, no visits, and my
family all have to leave Five

days later as well, because
we've only had kind of a week's

holiday booked.
So I was all on my lonesome for

three weeks in the hospital, so
yeah, it's been quite horrific.

I've been exceptionally poorly.
I'm still exceptionally poorly,

even though I won't actually
accept that I'm exceptionally

poorly.
And I'm suffering from a lot of

complications and side effects
from the sepsis and the

operation.
So part of that is I have quite

a lot of gastric ulcers, and
gastritis and colitis. So that

makes eating and moving
generally exceptionally painful.

And limited pain relief, I do
not have multimodal analgesia,

and where is my lidercane CRI
goddamnit?

So, so yeah, and it's a long
recovery as well. So we're

looking at at least six months.
And it can be years for some of

these things, too.

Mike Brampton: Can I ask because
I knew virtually nothing about

sepsis. And it comes up quite
often in respiratory physiology.

A lot of work is done in
ventilation, and ventilator

parameters for life support for
patients with sepsis.

But I've always taken that from
the research, sepsis. Yeah, this

is where it's useful. And this
is where we need to know and we

need to know how to support lung
tissue.

But I've always viewed it as a
ventilator, respiratory thing.

And the sepsis is sort of tagged
on the slide,

that was my knowledge of sepsis
and my exposure to what about

you Julian?

Julian Hoad: We were told simply
at college sepsis, or

septicemia, leading to
septicemic, or septitoximic

shock,
was either a primary event where

you get a bug going directly
into the bloodstream or more

usually, a secondary event a
complication of a infection

elsewhere
that travels to the bloodstream.

And this is 24 years ago, as I
said, when I studied we were

told, I'm afriad really not a l
t you can do for sepsis.

Because from sepsis you get
disseminated intravascular

coagulation DIC, and the joke
was then it was called Death is

coming, DIC, death is coming.
Because you know, once you got

that, nothing you can do, there
must be something?

Stick in tocks was a mix of of
antibodies raised against 12 or

so of the common suspects, the
usual suspects in toxaemia.

Because it's not necessarily the
bacteria. And it's the toxins

and bacteria produced that that
cause the problems.

And so you give them an
injection of the antibodies

against these, these toxins, and
they're fine again, they're not

in practice,
because what happens is, you've

got decreased renal perfusion,
and you get perimeter

glomerulonephritis quite rapidly
due to these antibody antigen

complex formations within the
bloodstream.

So was eventually taken off for
these reasons. And for the fact

it didn't seem to do much good,
lot of harm not much good.

Mike Brampton: So is it similar
for you, Jo, before you actually

contracted it?

Jo Hinde: Yeah, I always thought
sepsis and septicemia were the

same thing. And basically, I
thought it was blood poisoning,

and septicemia is blood
poisoning, sepsis is not.

So the clinical definition I've
since learned from the UK sepsis

trust, who are quite an amazing
resource. And I've since learned

from them that there are red
flags.

And basically you have two or
more concurrent infections, plus

one organ that is starting to
fail. And then you are

clinically considered to have
sepsis

and that can then spiral up you
can have 3-4-5 concurrent

infections and multiple organ
failure.

Julian Hoad: Absolutely.
But it has to fulfil these three

basic criteria first before you
call it sepsis, so absolutely.

And the problem is, the big
problem, of course, is that it

leads to failure of organs.

Jo Hinde: yeah, and you've
literally, you've got a golden

hour, which mine unfortunately
was missed.

When the ambulance arrived to
come and collect me, because as

you do as veterinary
professional, you think, well, I

can't be that bad.
They told me to expect like a

bad period pain. So there's me
in agony, and you know, but

thinking, well, it can't be that
bad. I'm not going to waste

anybody's time.
And the ambulance crew turn up

and say you're two hours off a
coma, and you go, Oh, okay. But

um, but I wasn't actually
diagnosed with sepsis.

For the first week, really. So
my therapy wasn't started as

quickly as it could. But that's
no detriment to the hospital.

That's just a thing with sepsis.
And I think we suffer from it in

the veterinary field as well.
You go looking for that one

thing.
And because I had a reason to be

there, I had this coil
implanted, therefore, it must be

something to do with that.
And that only, you get blinded

by the one thing when actually
again, it's multifactorial thing

that's going on.

Mike Brampton: This slide is
from sepsis trust, which is the

organisation you've just
mentioned there Jo

Jo Hinde: Yes, thank you.

Julian Hoad: So you're showing a
poster there from the UK sepsis

trust,do you want to talk us
through that poster Mike?

Mike Brampton: me, I don't feel
qualified i think i mean

Jo Hinde: I'll give it a go

Mike Brampton: We have somebdy
here that survived and is still

suffering. Yeah, it's obviously,
it's not a on you're poorly, off

you're better thing, this is
going to drag on for a long time

for Jo.

Jo Hinde: Potentially. And I
think there's a statistic I read

from the sepsis trust, because
I've done that, again, I've done

the typical thing of reading
lots of information about it.

Only factual information, not
kind of just Dr. Google and chat

rooms. But it's really scary
stuff. 50% of people never go

back to normal after having
sepsis

and I'm just thankful I wasn't
normal before. But yeah, there's

long term cognitive issues, long
term muscle issues. For example,

you know, lots of people lose
limbs.

Thankfully, I have all of mine.
But it's picking up these signs

early, and you can get slightly
different red flag warnings for

children as well.
And these posters are perfect, I

think, for any workplace to just
be aware of any friends or

family, just be aware of, you
know, because and that's why

since coming out of hospital,
I've shared my story very

publicly and quite graphically,
very cringe worthy for me, I'm

kind of hiding behind my
keyboard as I type this stuff,

but just a thought, if I can
help one person, ask their

medical professional Is there
any chance this is sepsis? That

could save their life or their
limb, or you know,

so things like having slurred
speech, I had all of these

things at home but just didn't,
didn't pick up on it.

The extreme shivering and muscle
pain, I felt like I had really,

really bad flu, you know, flu,
where you've got that 50 pound

test
that 50 pound notes on the end

of the bed, and you can't even
reach to get it because you feel

so poorly.
No passing of urine or very

reduced passing of urine.
And the breathlessness. I put

down to pain because my whole
abdomen was in severe pain. Of

course, that pushes on your
diaphragm.

And that means you can't breathe
well anyway. So again, a little

bit of medical knowledge in my
brain is going well, I'm only

breathless because I'm in pain
and it can't be that serious.

And I personally didn't feel
like I might die at that point.

After that, I did quite a few
times

Yeah, there was three times when
one of the consultants came to

see me, on three separate
occasions, and said, Do you want

Do you want to have those phone
calls that you know, it might be

to ring your family?
the last chance to have those

phone calls, thats a strange
position.

Because you, you kind of, you
also want to protect your loved

ones, so you don't. So you do
ring them and you do have these

conversations,
but you don't say, I'm ringing

you, it might be the last time I
speak to you because you know,

I'm going to theatre or, I'm in
ICU or this, this and this

and you kind of hide things from
them to chill them.

And mottled skin, I didn't have
mottled skin, but I was quite

exceptionally pale, but flushed
in the face and blue.

And there's a thing called post
sepsis syndrome PSS, which I'm

officially in. And it is a term,
it is not a well recognised term

within doctors again,
it's something that I'm trying

to raise awareness of, that it
s not like a broken leg or a hea

t attack that you just have t
e treatment and then generally g

t bette
This is something where you do

have to change your life for
quite some time, possibly the

rest of it, to kind of deal with
it and get around things. So

Julian Hoad: And that's all
really related to the impacts

that these toxins this endotoxic
state has on potentially every

single organ of your body.

Jo Hinde: Yeah, absolutely.
Because your body basically

attacks itself. And it chews at
anything and everything because

it's overrun with bacteria, and
it can't see good from bad.

And so yeah, every organ gets
it. So thankfully, as yet we

don't think I have any kidney
damage, which I'm very, very

thankful for.
And there is a bit of damage to

my lungs. Certainly, my right
lung was the worst collapsed.

And my SPO2 was averaging at
88%. And that was even with

supplementation. So I was very
close to having to go on a

ventilator,
but again, too stubborn, and

saying just you know, up the
flow rate, we'll be fine.

Mike Brampton: Nothing worse
than being attached to a

ventilator. Yeah.

Jo Hinde: You know, I've seen
what these people with

ventilators do. So

Julian Hoad: you don't want to
be on a ventilator if you can

help it can you?

Jo Hinde: No, absolutely not.
Absolutely not.

Julian Hoad: You made it
through. I mean, my goodness,

what

Jo Hinde: thank you.

Julian Hoad: And thanks so much
for sharing your story with us

about that.
I know, it must have dragged up

and continues to drag up,
horrific memories to do that.

But I think, as you say, if
listening to this helps just one

person.

Jo Hinde: Absolutely. Just be
aware, just have a look on the

website. Have a look at the UK
sepsis trust just to see those

red flags.
And if your child your mother,

your brother, your sister, your
friend, your colleague is unwell.

And I think certainly in
veterinary you know, we're

getting bitten or scratched all
the time. This must be an

underbelly of sepsis survivors
within our own community.

And I've had a little bit of a
poke around on the social media

forums on Facebook, and a few
people have come forward and

said yes, you know, I've been
through it as well

and I think we're probably one
of those, no one knows why a

person will go into sepsis or
won't, there's no underlying

thing. It's not genetic.
It's not you know, there there's

no reason behind it. However, I
think because we are at a

greater risk of having our, you
know, our skin injured,

then obviously we are at greater
risk of getting infections and

getting unwell and I would be
interested to look and see,

actually how many people have
been affected

or know someone that's been
affected and survived or not,

sadly through sepsis, because it
really is a hidden killer and

I can't remember the exact
stats, but I think it's

something like, sepsis kills in
the UK more people per year,

then a couple of the cancers
combined.

And you think how much we know
about cancer and how much we're

aware about that as a problem.
And yet this is something that

is just silently running around
our hospitals.

Julian Hoad: It is a horrific
thing. And as you say that vets

and nurses, anyone in the animal
profession, we tend to be a bit

gung ho don't we
Bitten by a cat and you can go

and wash you hand, that's alright

Jo Hinde: bit of iodine and
it'll be fine

Julian Hoad: All of these things
need to be taken very seriously.

Could I ask and don't answer
this if you don't want to but

do you take a stand now against
IUDs? The the risks were there

but they were tiny and

Jo Hinde: yeah, no, absolutely
not.

I don't have an issue against
IUDs I think they have their

place in treatments. Mine was
purely for contraceptive reasons,

a lot of people need them for
actual guinee health reasons.

And I was just a statistic, I
was just unlucky. And that's

just the way it goes.
Do I wish I'd never gone for it?

Absolutely, and in my remedial
surgery, Did I say take it out!

then yes, it is gone, it has
left the building.

Julian Hoad: Thats a different
question isn't it?

Jo Hinde: Absolutely. But no,
definitely I would never, I

think, I'm a bit too pragmatic
for that, I'm not the sort of

person that's going to scream
and shout and say that there's a

miscarriage of justice and that
these items are not suitable to

be on the market because
absolutely that's not the case.

We have risks with everything we
do. Everything we do to our

bodies put in and take out of
them. That's just the way that

the cookie crumbles.
And unfortunately, as I tend to

in my life, if I'm going to do
something I'll go ahead and

jolly well do it to the best of
my ability and apparently that

that goes for dying too.

Mike Brampton: So we're not
going to see you campaigning

against IUD outside the houses
of parliament waving plackades

Jo Hinde: I do like to Badger
Parliament shall we say but not

for against IUDs. No, absolutely
not.

Julian Hoad: I think I think we
know what the response would be

don't we? "Oh, you're perfectly
at liberty to use these devices

if you want its up to you.
But But please if you if you do

wear an IUD don't go to work. Or
Barnard castle unless you want

to keep everyone safe. Thank you"

Jo Hinde: perfect, perfect.

Mike Brampton: Who let him in?

Julian Hoad: I love wearing the
wig it's great my heads warm

when I wear it

Mike Brampton: So I'm going to
share a couple more photographs,

I'm gonna share my screen again
here and share a couple more

photographs
because you have been known to

protest outside the Houses of
Parliament haven't you?

Jo Hinde: Absolutely.

Mike Brampton: Here is apicture
of you holding a placard saying

skin test is inconclusive and
out of date, not fit for purpose

hashtag wake up Defra.
And here's a photograph of lots

of smartly dressed gentlemen.
And you've picked the guy with

the bright orange coat on and
the shagly white hair.

Jo Hinde: Absolutely. I think
thats one of his favourite rat

coats that's you know, that's
how that's how he rolls.

Julian Hoad: Could I just say
that this is amazing. There's a

picture of of Jo outside the
house of parliaments

Jo Hinde: Slightly further,
Yeah. Yes, yes, Brian May.

I'm a big fan of the Save Me
Trust which Bri set up and pre

bvna presidency, I took part in
quite a lot of evidence based

research
and campaigning against the

ineffective and failing badger
cull. As such, there was lots of

parliamentary meetings and
protests as well,

that I attended with a group of
vets and nurses, called vets and

nurses against badger cull

Mike Brampton: McGill here in
the background.

Jo Hinde: Ian McGill lurking in
the background absolutely, he

heads it all up. And sadly,
presidential duties come first

and political views have to be
put to one side.

However, political views never
actually go away. You just have

other things to be dealing with.
So those that know me know that

I will be that voice of the
voiceless.

And, however, I do like to think
I'm always pragmatic, and it is

evidence based, and well
researched. I'm not just

shouting for shouty sake.

Julian Hoad: yes, to our
American cousins listening in to

the show or watching us.
At the moment, we have this

horrific thing going on this
sort of middle aged witch hunt,

whereby badgers, Britain's
largest Preditor, are being

hunted down
and shot, to try and curb the

spread of bovine tuberculosis.
This, despite the fact that it's

been shown by pretty much every
study that culling badges

does not have a long term effect
on reducing bovine tuberculosis.

In fact, it increases the range
and spread of bovine

tuberculosis in most studies.
It is barbaric, its inhumane.

And in a, an era where we're
losing so many wonderful

animals, because we can't keep
the fucking planet safe.

We are deliberately going out
and shooting these wonderful

creatures. Mike and I are quite
emotional a few months back into

this subject.
And I think we will again if

we're not careful, but please
anyone who's listening and can

exert a little bit of pressure.
Just say it's not working. Stop

it. Oh, and Mike's got someone on
the phone. Now. Mike is on the

hotline to Johnson saying, Okay,
I'll stop it. Now, I didn't

realise there's no evidence,
I always contact Sage to ask

them for information. On this
occasion. On this occasion

alone, they appear to have given
me incorrect or out of date

information.
So I'm very much changed, I

think Thank you for letting me
know. So thanks, Boris for

stopping the badger cull.

Mike Brampton: That was MI5
saying that Veterinary Ramblings

is beginning to tread very
closely to extreme political

views that are not held by Defra
or the UK government.

The phone call that was the
second one I've had this evening.

Jo Hinde: Absolutely. And the
BVA putting a big caveat that Jo

Hinde is not representing their
views right now, either.

I think the other thing that
really frustrates me about the

Badger cull, is the fact that it
is just that carrot of shame

given to the farmers,
these farmers need help, they

need assistance, they need
guidance, and they need tools

that work and things that
actually make a difference.

And the cull is costing them
money, it's costing their

livelihoods, and some of them
it's costing their lives.

And we, as a nation, are failing
them by using methods that are

not going to cure the problem.
So as much as it's about the

cute fluffy endangered creatures.
For me, also, it's the human

impact, let alone the herd
impact of what they have to go

through. But the human impact of
how this, you know, this tears

their lives apart,
and there are there are better

ways.
Do look it up if you're able to

again, through through the save
me trust

Mike Brampton: very good point
very well made that Jo, in that

it's very easy to demonise a
whole group of people like the

farmers and
unfortunately a lot of them are

not that knowledgeable or
skilled in biosecurity, etc. And

we tend these days to jump to
these extreme views, don't we?

Jo Hinde: Yeah, very much so and
you know, it doesn't help when

we ideally need the veterinary
factions all to come together

and sing the same way but
they're never going to.

And so it makes guidance quite
difficult. Yeah, it's a very,

it's a very difficult and
politically sensitive topic.

However, in my mind anyway, if
we look at evidence based

medicine and evidence based
research, then we've got our

information there on what can
and does work.

And really, that should be
pushed through and upheld for

the sake of everybody and
everything. But as you say,

polarising views of what the
world wants in these modern kind

of days in the last few years.
Really, it's been more about

polarisation I feel and
socialisation in,

in general, has become more and
more polarised and yeah, we've

got ourselves into quite a
pickle, really, I think, and the

lovely hashtag of Be kind.
Just really, you know, just

just, it can actually be that
simple. If you just spend your

day going, you know what, I'm
not going to be an ass.

I'm actually just going to be
kind and you can still have a

bad day, and rant and rave and
you know, kick kick, the washing

machine. It doesn't matter
But I'm sure washing machines

lives matter to at some point,
but you know, just take that

take that step back and say,

Julian Hoad: we're not going to
say white goods Lives Matter.

Jo Hinde: No.

Julian Hoad: We don't need to
get into that smeg

Jo Hinde: No.

Julian Hoad: We have a challenge
for you, Jo if you feel up to it

Jo Hinde: Oh, Yeah,

Mike Brampton: we've got a thing
on the show that we call 60

second CPD. This is the challenge

Jo Hinde: Yes,

Mike Brampton: let's get the
clock ready.

Jo Hinde: like the countdown
timer doo doo doo doo doo doo.

Julian Hoad: For legal reasons
we can't use that.

Jo Hinde: Other game shows are
available.

Mike Brampton: Here we go then.
We've got the timer. Ready for

60 second CPD with Jo Hinde.
What are you going to talk about

Jo?

Jo Hinde: I'm going to talk
about rabbit nutrition,

Mike Brampton: rabbit nutrition.
Okay, 60 seconds starting now.

Jo Hinde: Okay, so the
cornerstone to good rabbit

health is good nutrition. And
it's really important, you know

what that comprises off.
So hay is the most important

thing. And it's a vital part of
their diet, they should eat a

ball of hay, at least the same
size of their body every single

day.
As well as this they can have

some pellets, they need to be
good quality and extruded

pellets.
And there's only two companies

on the market at the moment that
provide extremely pellets. So

look out for those.
And they need to be very high in

crude fibre, not beneficial
fibre, but crude fibre. They

only need, adults only need a
tablespoon of pellets per kilo

of ideal weight per day.
And they can also have some

fresh herbs and veggies. That's
no bigger than a small handful

no bigger than the rabbits own
head per day.

So everything is about that hay
and alfalfa is not the devil. It

has vital calcium in it so
pellets made of alfalfa are fine

they're not going to cause any
damage to healthy rabbits.

Julian Hoad: Wow

Mike Brampton: good

Julian Hoad: and were there

Jo Hinde: There we go.

Julian Hoad: Do you remember
when a certain, I won't say the

name of the food because i'll be
sued but it was a man's name

rabbit and it's a mix
a lovely little mix of food and

he said, at the time we're all
told as vets, that's fine as a

good food is a very well rounded
food but you must make sure they

eat the peas
and the sweet corn because

otherwise and so we were saying
to people is he eating more peas?

Definitely. Can you can you
take some of the peas out?

Jo Hinde: it's bizarre it's
bizarre things we do but we do

it to the best of our knowledge
at that time

Julian Hoad: clients want to
feed something that looks to

them nice

Jo Hinde: Absolutely. And and
you know any vet professional

knows, that owners think that
their pets get bored with their

food and they don't, we know
they don't,

they're just happy to have food
but if we've got someone as a

you know we can put our floppy
ears on and our puppy eyes on

and and get something more yummy
then we're going to push it and

rabbits are no different and
they've got an exceptionally

sweet tooth. So yes, they love
all the things they shouldn't

love.
But yeah, we have we have a duty

to keep them well and as I tend
to say in my lectures is if my

parents had never fed me cake, I
would be thin.

If you've never had it, you
don't miss it. And things are

always evolving, you know, it
was only probably about 5-6.

Actually, I'm probably kidding
myself probably about 10 years

ago now that the hay and greens
diet was the way to go and

pellets wre the devil
and you shouldn't have them. And

and it's just simply not true.
You know, pellets are a vital

part of the foodstuff, they are
the vitamin supplement,

we cannot provide the whole
range of nutrients and in the

correct quantities and
percentages that these rabbits

need, just through hay and veg
alone.

Because a wild rabbit has access
to the whole supermarket, our

domestic rabbits have access to
half an aisle with what we give

them.
And if we were to try and give

them all of their, I think it's
26 different nutrients that they

need, we need to know the RDA
for that rabbit at that age, at

that weight
with whatever co-morbidities is

got. And then look at that piece
of cabbage and say, right, of

those 26 nutrients, what's in
there, at what percentage,

then we've got to add that to
something else, and do the math

to work out what they need for
that day. Otherwise, we're under

or over feeding.
I mean, no one's got time for

that, even if we could,

Julian Hoad: They haven't got
the intimate knowledge of the

RDA for all these things.

Jo Hinde: Absolutely.

Julian Hoad: So we do the best
we can and I think your

encapsulation of that subject in
60 seconds is absolutely

incredible.
We are well recognised, mainly

by just the two of us, actually,
but we're recognised as

suppliers of a good quality CPD.
And, and we I think we need a

certificate

Mike Brampton: Have we got a
certificate?

Julian Hoad: Let me have a look.
I do actually just here.

Jo Hinde: lovely choice of car
there. Look at that. Hey,

Julian Hoad: I'm going to be
wrong here. I think that's a

Jaguar D type. But it's about
1960s 1950s and that was taken

at Goodwood during the festival
speed,

Jo Hinde: Fabulous

Julian Hoad: There's a rabbit

Mike Brampton: there's a picture
of a rabbit there.

Jo Hinde: Oh, but you failed
Julian, he's on his own.

Julian Hoad: There are 50 others
he was okay.

That's a wild rabbit.

Jo Hinde: I know a little
Cottontail

Julian Hoad: and look at it,
you'll appreciate this because

you said one of your other
pleasures is trying to find a

decent vegan restaurant.
Ah, and so I've got a picture

here of red onion being chopped
up. Because the vegan meal I

made, it just looked a bit like
slops.

But there's this lovely picture
of that

Jo Hinde: brilliant

Julian Hoad: and the certificate
says 'A certificate to show

we've done it again. Veterinary
Ramblings has aced the eclectic

CPD. Didn't we do well, thats
signed him and me, Mike and

Julian.'

Jo Hinde: Fabulous.

Mike Brampton: Download that
certificate

Jo Hinde: cricket clap.

Mike Brampton: Yeah. Download
that certificate present that to

the RCVS as certification of
completing your CPD.

Julian Hoad: Well we've had the
CPD thrust at us. We've got it.

We've got reflect on it.

Jo Hinde: It's all about the
reflection. reflection.

Mike Brampton: So Jo, would you
be kind enough, May I invite you

to reflect upon the CPD that we
have provided this evening?

Jo Hinde: Gosh, well, I think I
mean, it's been an eclectic mix

for sure. Absolutely. I mean,
superb delivery from both of the

hosts, obviously. Brilliant.

Julian Hoad: Very nice. So we're
just gonna reflect so we're

gonna just oh

Jo Hinde: hmm.

Julian Hoad: Never had sound
effects before

Mike Brampton: Your the first
guest who has done sound effects

for us it's good stuff.

Julian Hoad: Good stuff.

Mike Brampton: Indeed. So you're
gonna spoil the whole show with

a joker then Julian?

Julian Hoad: I'm gonna ruin the
whole thing with a joke. We

haven't had a rude joke for ages

Jo Hinde: that's not my
influence in any way, shape or

form.

Mike Brampton: Brace yourself,
Jo.

Julian Hoad: I wanted to do
something surgical, but fairly

light hearted But yeah, I
couldn't find any jokes,

fortunately, about sepsis. And
please don't send us any jokes

in about sepsis it will be the
height of bad taste

Jo Hinde: Send them to me

Julian Hoad: But this man, he
goes to the doctor and he says

"I don't know what's wrong but
recently I've had severe pain it

starts, starts on my left side,
waist level,

and it goes all the way up,
round by my shoulders, around

the back of the neck, round my
other shoulder, all the way down

the other side, ends up right
hand side roundabout,

around the waist level, really
severe pain" and the doctor says

"there could be a number of
things, he says let's examine,

take your clothes off"
so he takes his clothes off,

takes his shirt off, takes his
trousers off, and the doctor

goes "Whoa. Goodness me that's
a, very proud of that aren't

you, sir."
"Rather,rather large for your

fella down there." "Thanks very
much." "I think that's the

problem." "What do you mean?"
"I think thats the problem, i

think i think it's the weight of
that and it's it's sort of a

pulling your whole groin area
and causing this pain"

He said "Your joking?" " No, I
think that's what it is. I'll

refer you to a specialist" so he
sees a specialist

and the specialist says "How can
I help?" "Well I've got this

pain starts waist level on the
left hand side, goes to the

shoulders,
back of my neck, round, back

down to the right hand side.
Cause a real twinging pain on

the right hand side"
"the doctor thinks its penile

gravitas doesn't he, pop the
trouser down let's have a look."

"Well Goodness me. Yes, that's
certainly the problem."

"So well how can I get rid of
it? Because this is really my

life, I can't, this pain it
starting again right around the

waist."
We're gonna have to perform a

penile amputation. Yes, take
the most of it off."

"There's no other way." "No, no
other way I'm afraid No. You

will never look back and you'll
be fine."

So he books him in and the guy
needs something, he's in such

pain, so he goes in for the
surgery and has it done and he

lifts the sheet up afterwards.
Almost all gone. And, and he's

bereft and you know, a month
later he still is still feeling

very depressed about all this.
But the pain is still there.

He's wearing loose clothes so
nothing's pressing on there but

the pain is diminished a bit but
it's still there.

And he goes to see a
psychologist he says to him

"you've got low self esteem
because you had this huge great

tally whacker and it's been it's
been removed,

a tiny little thing now." "So
what do I do? Do I need

antidepressants?" "You just need
to make yourself feel good, tell

you what I'll give you the name
of my tailor

Saville Row Tailor, you go to
him, get a new suit, you'll be a

new man honestly, you'll feel so
wonderful wandering around in

the streets
Everyone will look at you and

say oh what a nice suit and
you'll think well gosh I must be

someone, it'll really help."
So he goes to the tailor and the

tailor measures him up and "yeah
that's all good, inside leg,

There we go." And he says "so.
Which side do you dress"

"sorry?" "Which side do you
dress?" Well I dunno" he sort of

thinks probably changed now
hasn't it?

"Does it matter?" "Oh, yes, if
you dress up in the wrong side

you get an awful pain that
starts off on the left, and it

goes right up to the shoulder
and back to the other side"

Mike Brampton: Have you not got
a rabbit joke?

Julian Hoad: Go on tell us the
rabbit joke.

Mike Brampton: Well, the one
about the rabbit that goes to

the pub.

Julian Hoad: Yeah,

Mike Brampton: He goes "I'll
have pint of beer and a toasty

please". Barman says "okay"
gives him a pint of beer, makes

him a cheese toastie.
Rabbit drink the beer, eats the

toasty, goes back to the bar
says "pint of beer and cheese

toastie"
Barman says "sorry we've run out

of cheese, you'll have to have a
ham toasty." "Okay, pint of beer

and ham toasty."
So gets a ham toasty. Drinks the

beer. Eats the ham toasty.
Goes back up to the bar "pint of

beer and a ham toasty." "Sorry,
Mr. Rabbit. We've run out of ham

now. I could do you tuna melt
toasty or something like that."

"Okay.""Pint of beer, tuna melt
toasty." Drinks the beer, eats

the toasty. "Last orders, please"
The rabbit goes out to the front

of the pub as if he's looking t
leave, and he throws up all o

er the front door of the pub.
And the barman said, "you silly

Mr. Rabbit. You shouldn't have
drunk all that beer." Rabbit

looks at him and says "it wasn't
beer. It's because I'm mixing me

toasties"

Jo Hinde: Definitely get your
rabbits vaccinated.

Mike Brampton: Have your rabbits
vaccinated against myxomatosis,

its not a very pleasant diseases
is it?

Jo Hinde: No really quite awful.

Mike Brampton: I don't know.
There we go. So have you enjoyed

yourself, Jo?

Jo Hinde: Fabulous. It's been
really nice. Thank you. It's

been great to see you guys
because it feels like a very

long time since catching up.

Julian Hoad: Thank you so so
much for coming onto the show

tonight. And sharing so much
with us.

Jo Hinde: Thank you for having
me.

Mike Brampton: It's been a great
experience. Thank you very much,

Jo So Jo Hinde. Thank you very
much indeed for joining us on

veterinary ramblings.
And remember, if you've enjoyed

what you've heard, or enjoyed
what you've seen, don't forget

to click like, follow and share
to all your friends

or anybody else that you may
think will enjoy what we put

out. And don't forget to
subscribe so that we can keep

doing what we do.
Jo Hine, Thank you very much

indeed. My your dog go with you.

Julian Hoad: May your dog go
with you. Thank you, Jo.

Jo Hinde: May your dog go with
you

Mike Brampton: Good night. Cut.

Jo Hinde: Thank you. So yeah,
no, no really good. And really

nice to actually do something if
that makes sense.

This is week. Well, I don't even
know what week, 24th of

September was the last time I
was well.

So so it feels like a very long
time since since I've done

anything.
And certainly anything career

related, veterinary related.
So yeah, it's really nice to,

even though it's just rambling
on but then again, that's kind

of what I do anyway.
My lecture style.

Julian Hoad: That's why we set
it up. So we found that

actually, out of our lectures,
there's 5 minutes take home

message if if that and the rest
is rambling,

which is all good fun, and very
much needed. I think in the

world.

Jo Hinde: I like this rambling
style of just just being real, I

think and just being open and
honest.

Julian Hoad: Well, we've enjoyed
having you. Thank you.

Jo Hinde: Thank you. Appreciate
it. Thanks, guys.

Mike Brampton: Brilliant. You
mind how you go and get well

soon.

Jo Hinde: Yep. Take care. Bye.
Bye.

Julian Hoad: It's amazing. What
a hell of a journey.

Mike Brampton: What a story.
Yeah, what a story.