Caitlin Rother on her new book "Staged": Murder, Corruption, Journalism, and the Return of Katrina & Goode

Today on The Premise, Jeniffer and Chad Thompson welcome bestselling author Caitlin Rother back to the podcast to celebrate the release of Staged, the highly anticipated second installment in her Katrina and Goode thriller series.

Picking up immediately after the events of Hooked, Staged dives deeper into corruption, suspicious deaths, investigative journalism, and the growing tension between reporter Katrina Sullivan and detective Ken Goode.

Caitlin discusses her transition from award-winning investigative reporter to thriller writer, how real-life corruption cases inspire her fiction, the importance of journalistic ethics, and what readers can expect from future books in the series.

In This Episode

• Why Staged can be enjoyed as a standalone novel despite being Book 2
• The challenge of balancing action and backstory in thriller writing
• How modern publishing relies heavily on reader reviews, sales, and data
• Caitlin's experience writing Books 3 and 4 before publication decisions are finalized
• The fascinating true story behind her bestselling memoir My Life Deleted
• Why even accomplished authors continue learning through workshops, webinars, and beta readers
• How experts—including prosecutors, detectives, and therapists—help ensure realism in her novels
• The real-world science behind genetic genealogy and DNA databases
• The influence of the Golden State Killer Investigation on the series
• San Diego legends, including the famous "Munchkin Houses" of La Jolla
• The ethical dilemma at the heart of Katrina and Goode's relationship
• Journalism ethics: why reporters don't date sources or assist investigations
• Lessons from Caitlin's years covering government, crime, and corruption
• The real San Diego political scandal known as "Strippergate" and how it inspired elements of the series
• Why corruption is often harder to write than readers might expect
• Hints about the escalating stakes in Books 3 and 4

Creators and Guests

Host

Jeniffer Thompson

Writer. Reader. Interviewer. Cohost of The Premise Podcast. I help authors build brands + websites. Cofounder of the San Diego Writers Festival. Chicken-mama.

Guest

Caitlin Rother

New York Times bestselling author Caitlin Rother has written or co-authored sixteen books, from crime novels to crime narrative nonfiction and memoir, including Down to the Bone, about the McStay family murders, Body Parts, about serial killer Wayne Adam Ford, and Death on Ocean Boulevard, about the mysterious death of Rebecca Zahau.

Producer

Chad Thompson

Chad Thompson, co-founder of Monkey C Media, offers professional photography and videography services. He has an eye for detail and a command of lighting that gives him the ability to show his subjects at their very best. You can count on seeing Chad around South Park on his bicycle with a camera slung over his shoulder. If he has never taken a picture of you, chances are good you have never met him.

What is The Premise?

Here on The Premise Jeniffer and Chad Thompson talk to storytellers of all types. From authors to musicians, poets, screenwriters, and comedians we get down to the tiny grain of sand that becomes a pearl—getting to the story behind the storyteller.

00;00;09;22 - 00;00;34;26
Unknown
Hello and welcome to The premise. I'm Jeniffer Thompson and I'm Chad Thompson, and today we are here with the extraordinary Caitlin Rother, local author, who has written a new book which is coming out today. It's called staged. It's book two in the Katrina and Goode thriller series. And hopefully, reader, you listen to the podcast with her when she came on and talked about hooked, which is book one.

00;00;34;27 - 00;01;08;13
Unknown
This one picks up right where hooked left off. Staged is. Well, it's fantastic. I got to say, I love this book. I love the characters. It's so much fun. But before we dive in, let me tell you a little bit about Caitlin. New York Times bestselling author Caitlin Rother has written 17 books, ranging from crime novels to narrative nonfiction and memoir, including Hooked Down to the bone, Death on Ocean Boulevard, and Body Parts, an award winning investigative reporter for 19 years.

00;01;08;14 - 00;01;37;13
Unknown
Rother has had her work featured in cosmopolitan, the Los Angeles Times, The Washington Post, The Boston Globe, the San Diego Union Tribune, and The Daily Beast. Her more than 250 media appearances include 2020. People magazine, investigates, Crimewatch, Daily, Australia's World News, and numerous shows on Netflix, Investigation Discovery, lifetime, HLN and reels. A popular speaker, Rother also works as a writing research coach.

00;01;37;14 - 00;02;01;24
Unknown
For fun. She binges on limited series, sings and plays keyboards in a jazzy, bluesy trio with her partner, and swims in the ocean. She holds a BS in psychology from UC Berkeley and an M.S. in journalism from Northwestern University, and you can learn more about Caitlin on her website. Caitlin Rother. Caitlin, welcome to The Premise. Thanks for having me back.

00;02;01;25 - 00;02;21;24
Unknown
Yay! I'm really excited to talk about this book. Well, good. I'm glad you liked it. Did you write these books, like at the same time and then release them? Because hooked didn't come out that long ago. What was the release date for her? Well, you know, I don't know how this works, honestly. This is my first series and my first books with Thomas and Mercer, so.

00;02;21;26 - 00;02;38;13
Unknown
But what they told me is they don't usually have them come out this close together, so I'm not sure. But that's the decision they made. And so they're only coming out four months apart. So I'm okay that people are like, oh, they finished the first book and they can't wait to read the second. And guess what? They can.

00;02;38;16 - 00;02;56;26
Unknown
Because honestly, like, it reminds me of binging Netflix. I'm like, oh, I get to read book two. This is so cool. And it was so fresh in my mind. Although I will note that you can read staged wholly by itself and you will know what's happening. Like, you did a really good job of getting people up to speed without having to read hooked.

00;02;57;01 - 00;03;14;08
Unknown
Thanks. I worked really hard on that because, you know, you don't want to, like, clog up the beginning with a bunch of background. Still needed to know some stuff in order to understand the new stuff I'm throwing at you, as you know, quickly as I can. It's sort of like the beginning of the Netflix series where it's like.

00;03;14;08 - 00;03;34;18
Unknown
Previously on Right Turn It and good. Right. And but but it was well done because it was in, you know, conversation or it was really relevant to whatever was happening in the scene at the time. And I've noted it. I was like, oh, this is this is interesting and impressive, and it's pretty cool. Did was that a requirement?

00;03;34;18 - 00;03;56;22
Unknown
When you write a thriller series, do you always have to like give us backstory to that extent? Well, I think there's, you know, I've, I've attended some of these webinars on how would you write a successful thriller. And you have to really have a ton of action at the beginning, because these days everyone's on their phone and they're addicted to dopamine, and they have this boom, boom, boom, boom.

00;03;56;24 - 00;04;16;24
Unknown
Fast, fast, fast thing. You know that if you want them to put the phone down, your book has to be boom, boom, boom, you know, fast thing. Yeah, sure. Thriller. And so they don't you know, it's also kind of a rule that you don't clog up the beginning of a book, especially a thriller with a bunch of backstory.

00;04;16;24 - 00;04;40;14
Unknown
But I think in order to understand what's happening, you have to have some context or it's not going to make any sense. So I did my best to keep it to a minimum while I'm throwing a bunch of murders at you, you know? Right, exactly. Yeah. Because there's a lot there's a lot that happens. But but, you know, people can jump right in and read this book.

00;04;40;15 - 00;04;57;29
Unknown
How many books do you think are going to be in the series? Do you have any idea? Okay, so I have written for oh my God, really? Wow I have yeah, books three and four are written. They've been vetted by beta readers. I want to be a better in the future. Just putting that out. That's cool. Good to know, good to know.

00;04;57;29 - 00;05;19;25
Unknown
Thank you. Book three my editor is reading as we speak. I actually submitted it last August, and we're now almost in June of the following year because I was so enthusiastic and I wanted to get my books posted. Well, if there's only four books between four months between 1 and 2, then hopefully they'll want the third one really fast too.

00;05;19;25 - 00;05;41;11
Unknown
But unfortunately, because I'm a new author with Thomas and Mercer and they live by quote unquote data, that's all I as we need data before we can decide if we're going to publish another one of your books. So I have apparently passed this threshold of time where they now can consider whether or not they're going to publish more books.

00;05;41;11 - 00;06;07;23
Unknown
And so I've got three, as a matter of fact, that I have written, two of them have been submitted, and she's reading them right now. So number three, she's reading, I don't know what's going to happen in number four. She is open to it, but I don't know. They kind of have an unwritten rule that doesn't apply to everyone, but that that series should be no more than three books unless you're really huge, in which case it seems to be unlimited.

00;06;07;23 - 00;06;30;02
Unknown
But for a debut author or somebody who does not have a whole track record in fiction, because my my background is obviously nonfiction. So this is new. And so I don't have that track record yet. They don't, you know, they don't want their business. This is a business no matter what. Right. Yeah. So I have I have written a new book in a new series and she's also reading that.

00;06;30;03 - 00;06;52;14
Unknown
Okay. Wow. I remember you'd mentioned another series. Yeah. So when you say data, what you really mean is sales. Yes. But the data also includes how many reviews do you have? What are the what is the number of your reading of stars or whatever? And I've got 300 reviews on hooked. I've never had anything close to that on a book.

00;06;52;17 - 00;07;13;19
Unknown
So it's really that's another number, another metric. Yeah. And you know, are the reviews from readers positive? How are the preorder numbers for the next book? I mean, there's a lot of numbers. So that's data that they look at that's impressive and that's cool. And for someone who is looking to to write that, I mean that's important information.

00;07;13;19 - 00;07;45;09
Unknown
That's what we call platform really is. Are you worthy of taking on, as you know, another another book out in the world? Are people going to buy it? Well, they told me that they liked my background because I, I had a, you know, I was an investigative reporter for newspapers for almost 20 years. And then I've got all this, you know, narrative nonfiction books out, and then I've got memoirs that my my New York Times bestselling book is actually a memoir.

00;07;45;12 - 00;08;06;24
Unknown
So that's what's kind of funny. So I've got I've got a pretty varied background and a good platform. I've been on TV a lot and done a lot of podcasts, and, you know, all of that helps. What is the name of that memoir? It's called My Life Deleted. Okay. It's about a former NFL football player named Scott Bolden.

00;08;07;00 - 00;08;29;06
Unknown
And he, you know, after football, there's always some other career. So he went into he was an aviation entrepreneur and he was in an office building in the in the men's bathroom. And he slipped on something on the floor. Boom. Cracked his head open and within two hours had lost his entire long term memory. Oh my God. So it was a it was a medical book.

00;08;29;06 - 00;08;49;07
Unknown
It was a love story. It was a family story. And and it also was a really challenging project because he had no long term memory. So he didn't, you know, when he woke up in the emergency room, he didn't know who he was. Wow. He didn't have any language. He didn't know where he was or what an emergency room was.

00;08;49;07 - 00;09;10;09
Unknown
He didn't know what the word wife meant, let alone recognize the woman who showed up at his bedside. So I had to piece this story together by interviewing other people and basically followed him in real time, as he kind of had to relearn everything and who he was and what he was going to be, and reform new memories with his wife.

00;09;10;09 - 00;09;28;02
Unknown
And so it was it was a really interesting and challenging book. But yeah, it's not true crime and it's not fiction, but that's. Yeah, that that's my New York Times selling book. So all you have to do is throw in a murder, and that's a perfect Netflix series.

00;09;28;04 - 00;09;51;02
Unknown
And does he really want to remember his wife? Right. Well, well, it was awkward because if you don't have a memory of your wife. Yeah. That's crazy. Are you still in love with the person? Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And he was going into her closet and seeing all these clothes, and, you know, some of them still had price tags on, and he's like, what is this?

00;09;51;03 - 00;10;08;10
Unknown
And he goes into his bathroom and he finds, like 13 watches and he's like, why do I have all these, you know, stuff like that? That is fascinating. Yeah, that sounds like a really good book. Yeah, it was an interesting story. Well, we'll have to read that one next. So you said something just a little earlier that struck me as kind of awesome.

00;10;08;11 - 00;10;30;03
Unknown
I mean, you're an extraordinary writer and you've won many awards written. I mean, here a lot of books. And yet you took webinars on how to write a thriller. That cracks me up. Well, no, because I'm always learning. I don't know everything. I would never say I know even I was a teacher for, you know, I don't know, at least a dozen years.

00;10;30;03 - 00;10;49;20
Unknown
I was teaching narrative nonfiction, I was teaching journalism, I was teaching interviewing, I was teaching creative writing workshops. But I would never say that I knew everything. And and I send my books out to beta readers. And this last one, I had to make a bunch of changes. Oh, yeah. Don't know everything. I would never claim that. And so.

00;10;49;21 - 00;11;09;01
Unknown
And I can always improve. I mean, I can always be better. I think everyone can. I think that's some of the best advice to because, you know, most of our listeners, I mean, are readers, but there are also a lot of writers. And that's just such good advice. We can always get better, we can always learn. And the beta reading process is so important.

00;11;09;03 - 00;11;31;06
Unknown
Well, not for me, I, I really don't send it to authors. I wish I had more beta readers who were authors because they're the people I'm sending it to. Ask more for the content, because I want to make sure my my stuff is accurate. So like, I, one of my beta readers this last time was the former head of the the DA's sexual assault unit.

00;11;31;06 - 00;11;53;07
Unknown
She was the head prosecutor. So great. Great person to know. You know, she's a lawyer and she also knows sexual assault, you know, inside and out. And so that's what my book is about. So it's it was important to get some real life feedback from somebody who is a professional in that area. My protagonist is a female sexual assault detective.

00;11;53;07 - 00;12;18;04
Unknown
And so I had a retired captain at the sheriff's department. Read the book. And, you know, just to make sure I get the protocols right and to make sure I don't do anything stupid, that would never happen in real life. I had a therapist read it because it has to do with, I don't want to give away all the story, but I'm just saying I, I basically went to experts to be my beta readers, and then I have some readers, just general readers, to to see if they find it.

00;12;18;05 - 00;12;39;27
Unknown
Is there any place that's confusing or bogs down, or is there a, you know, is it too slow at the beginning? Is it fast enough? You know, stuff like that? And to be clear, you're talking about your next series, not staged. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just just to be clear for our listeners. Yeah, I just just went through the beta readers stage for the book that I just wrote, and I just turned it in like last week.

00;12;39;28 - 00;13;02;10
Unknown
So fresh in my mind. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, but but I'm excited about it, so I'm glad. Yeah. Well I'm excited to read it so. But was staged and hooked. You know, it's so impressive the detail you go into with the corruption and there's fentanyl. There's some DNA in here. You know, she looks into her DNA records.

00;13;02;10 - 00;13;39;18
Unknown
And I imagine that there was a lot of research you had to do to get this. All right. Okay. So the genetic genealogy was kind of the I like to find timely topics that, you know, that are not trendy necessarily, but just topics within the crime, criminal justice or milieu, whatever you want to call it. And I had just read recently a book about how the Golden State Killer case came together and a case that was like, right after that.

00;13;39;18 - 00;14;03;27
Unknown
And so I read this nonfiction book, and then I updated Body Parts, where I added 10,000 words. That's my own book, because the first victim of a serial killer went Adam Ford. She was unidentified for 25 years until they used genetic genealogy to to finally identify her. Wow. And that basically means is they take her DNA and they run it through.

00;14;03;28 - 00;14;36;14
Unknown
They ran it through one of those consumer databases. It was called GED match. And that is the only one of those genetic genealogy websites that that gives permission to law enforcement to use your DNA to solve crimes. Because if there was a whole controversy about, well, you know, when I joined this other website, I didn't know they were going to come after me or my family, you know, in a murder investigation.

00;14;36;14 - 00;14;57;17
Unknown
And one of my family members is going to end up in prison. I didn't know they were going to use my DNA for that. Right, right. So I just I had just written the whole thing about that, and it was fresh in my mind. And so I said, I want to put that in my novel because it's timely and it's really interesting, and I'll use it in a totally different way because it's a novel and they use it in a, in a personal.

00;14;57;19 - 00;15;26;20
Unknown
I don't want to give it away. How what happened? But yeah, you point on her personal life. You know, it makes a huge personal and professional life which finds out. So that was fun. That was really fun, to use my knowledge that I had the research I had already done and, and use it in a book. So that's what I kind of like to do, is I have done so much research already for all these true crime books, that I have all that in my head already.

00;15;26;20 - 00;15;50;18
Unknown
So when I when I send stuff out to a beta readers, it's really to make sure that I've pulled from my own brain and areas that I don't know that are new, that I'm trying to write like I do know about it, and I want to make sure they're accurate. So I'll interview those experts sometimes while I'm writing the novel, and then I want them to read it when I'm done to make sure I got it right.

00;15;50;21 - 00;16;23;16
Unknown
I was thinking when I was reading this, she must be having so much fun because you you've been a reporter, an investigative reporter, you know, practically your whole life. And now you have this opportunity to just, like, have fun with it and use all of these. And, you know, I just want to say, there's a mention in this book where you bring up we talked about death on Ocean Boulevard earlier and you sort of, you know, just barely mention the Rebecca Zaha and by name in this book, as is related to San Diego.

00;16;23;16 - 00;16;47;05
Unknown
And I thought, oh that's fun. Well, the funny thing is there is there is a thing that happens in the very beginning. And since it's in the beginning of the book, I'm just going to talk about it. This book is set in 20 end of 2015, beginning of 2016. So Jeffrey Epstein had not died yet. And that's what I really wanted to make the allusion to.

00;16;47;07 - 00;17;15;18
Unknown
Yeah, Rebecca's a how was the only one that had happened so far. And and Rebecca's and Jeffrey Epstein, their injuries are similar. If I could have mentioned Jeffrey Epstein, I would have, but unfortunately would have been an anachronism. Yeah, but it has to do with the injuries in your neck. And there are experts who can tell there are certain injuries when someone strangles a person, and certain injuries when somebody hangs themselves.

00;17;15;26 - 00;17;45;00
Unknown
Okay. Right. And they're different and they can tell. So, you know, when there are these little bones or cartilages that get fractured, that's different from when someone strangles, makes them much more violent injury. And so that when the book is called staged, it's because there are, you know, you can tell from the evidence that something is not right here, like the sheriff's department is saying, oh, this was he hung himself.

00;17;45;03 - 00;18;12;21
Unknown
This person who is dies very early on in the book that that Ken Goode thinks it must have been staged because they could just it just it didn't seem right. And in this case, there was suicide note left in the cell where this person supposedly hung himself in jail. And there's no pencil because you're not allowed pens in the jail because there could be weapon rape.

00;18;12;21 - 00;18;31;16
Unknown
So there was no pencil in the cell. So how did the how did he write the suicide note that he supposedly. Really. Yes, yes. So anyway, that's where the title comes from. Is there are things like that that happened, and there were some of these same situations in the first book to in hooked, I could have called hooked staged.

00;18;31;16 - 00;18;51;25
Unknown
Also, I was going to say, you really could have, you really could have. I love it, and the covers are great on these two books too. Oh, thanks, I love them. Yeah, I love the of the font and all that. Well, they're colorful and, you know, well, staged in particular. It brings you right to the shores in La Jolla where all of this is taking, well, wind.

00;18;51;25 - 00;19;11;18
Unknown
And see, I call that little. Yeah. Am I wrong? That's not Lahore Shores. Lahore Shores is a different part of the Holy See. This little shack right above the D. Well, this is my bed because I said the shores in La Jolla, meaning wind and seashores and La Jolla. But there is a lot of shores. So I spoke and it is in another a different part of La Jolla.

00;19;11;19 - 00;19;35;15
Unknown
Yeah, right as my bad, I know I can see that it's wind and see. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. It takes you right there. It's really cool and it's colorful. And both of the titles are great. You know I love that you knew. I knew before I started reading that there was going to be something staged, and I knew it was going to be a murder because I read book one.

00;19;35;17 - 00;19;55;09
Unknown
So let's I want to talk about some of the things that you put in this book that I think are really fun, one of which is Hillside Drive. You were referencing The Wizard of Oz and the munchkins. I moved to San Diego in 1989, and I remember my friend who was my college friend. She's the reason I moved here.

00;19;55;09 - 00;20;16;03
Unknown
She's like, okay, we're going to go drive around because there's this little area in La Jolla where the munchkins from The Wizard of Oz lived when they were filming it. And I just remember spending so much of those years of my life driving around looking for the the Munchkin Village if and, you know, the houses are real. But the story was a myth, right?

00;20;16;04 - 00;20;32;02
Unknown
Right. But in the book you're like, well, there was no evidence to that. But you don't say either way, whether or not it just made me laugh, I can tell you that it's kind of legend. Totally. You know, and I remember driving around looking at those houses, and they really do look like they look tiny. Yeah. Yeah, totally.

00;20;32;07 - 00;20;49;23
Unknown
There's only one left. There literally is only one left. Because when you drive, I drove through there. But when I was writing this because I wanted to make sure and I was so surprised at how much it had changed because, you know, I grew up in La Jolla. When I was growing up, meeting junior high school on, we moved there in the summer before seventh grade.

00;20;49;23 - 00;21;16;28
Unknown
And so that was one of the things that was one of the fun things that we could do is go drive around that area and look to the munchkin houses. Right. And Doctor Seuss lived up there and driving there recently because I wanted to describe it. Oh my God, it's changed so much. So they still have some of the older houses, but then they've knocked those down and gentrified and these enormous, enormous mansions, you know, on the same street.

00;21;16;29 - 00;21;57;00
Unknown
Yeah. Aids fences and and so it's kind of a hodgepodge of the original houses. There's still a few, but not many. They've mostly been knocked down in large ified, which is so sad. I feel like there should be like a book about, you know, that particular legend and pictures of the old homes and what they've been replaced with would be kind of an interesting little kind of found out, because one of my high school classmates is a real estate agent, and she posted that this last house was for sale, and it was still it was like the last one of the houses.

00;21;57;00 - 00;22;16;27
Unknown
And it really, you know, they're all really squat short, short doors. Yeah, they really do look like dwarfs would live there, you know. Have you been inside any of them? No I haven't. So this this one that I described, I totally made up. Okay, okay. Well, you had me. I thought for sure you took a little tour through there.

00;22;17;04 - 00;22;34;09
Unknown
That's awesome. No, I saw the outside in the picture, and I drove by there, and I couldn't find it. I wanted to see it in person, but I saw pictures of the one that was for sale, and I'm like, that's one of those munchkin houses. And I talked to, emailed with my my friend and she's like, yeah, it's the last one.

00;22;34;09 - 00;22;57;03
Unknown
So I feel like we need to get you in there. We need can be yours for $4 million, probably. Probably more like ten. I don't know, the house is in lawyer. Just insane. Insane? Totally. Yeah. So good. And, Katrina, we've got this tension between the two of them. They're clearly really into each other, but they have to stay away from each other because it's a conflict of interest.

00;22;57;03 - 00;23;32;02
Unknown
So talk about this tension and like how fun that was writing. Okay. So way back when, when I was writing the earliest, earliest versions of hooked, my agent at the time, which is like five agents ago, he's like, they I want them to have sex. And I'm like, but it's not right. It's not right for them to have sex, because people don't seem to understand the extreme pressure that journalists have to, you know, not date their sources and step over the line and, you know, fraternize with your sources.

00;23;32;02 - 00;23;55;06
Unknown
You're not allowed to do that. Okay. And people in the in the rest of the world don't seem to really think that that's as important as, as our editors. And we are, you know, taught, you know, there is a there is a big line there, and especially if it's someone that you're covering on a story and it's going to be continuing and its current.

00;23;55;06 - 00;24;08;29
Unknown
So, I mean, I may have said this on the last podcast, I don't remember, but, you know, I made a decision to go out with somebody that I was covering in the next morning after we went out. And one day I told my boss and they carved that piece of my beat out and gave it to someone else.

00;24;08;29 - 00;24;46;01
Unknown
Because I was honest. I also found out that there are other people who work for the paper who did not do that and continued to cover people that they were seeing. And that's not what you're supposed to do. But, you know, I've always been honest. I've been described as honest to a fault. So so my character is going to be honest to a fault as well, because I found that that was really important to me and really important to my character to have integrity and ethics at a time today where there are so many people who are operating in government, which, you know, we were covering, because that's how civilization and democracy is supposed to

00;24;46;01 - 00;25;08;19
Unknown
work, that are not following those rules at all. Yeah, yeah. I mean, again, let's talk about that because, I mean, what this both of these books really do is shed a light on a time when journalism did what it was supposed to do. Exactly. And I think there are still journalists out there with those ideals, but but no one's paying them.

00;25;08;22 - 00;25;42;12
Unknown
I don't know, honestly. I don't want to judge everybody who's in journalism with one broad brush. You know, you got some specifics though. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, I don't know, there's just so much wrong with with what's going on. I just I wish the journalists would challenge their sources more, you know. And but that's my opinion. If I were in the room in the white House press corps and, you know, the president called me piggy or a bitch, I honestly don't know how I would handle it, but I think they've been schooled not to respond because then they become part of the story.

00;25;42;12 - 00;26;05;09
Unknown
And I remember you remember Bob Filner, the congressman who ended up being mayor and ended up being removed because he was sexually harassing, like 22 people, women. Well, I covered one of his congressional races, and every time I talked to him, he started yelling at me. And I just was like, I told his campaign manager. I said, look, he needs to apologize to me.

00;26;05;10 - 00;26;19;27
Unknown
No, but I don't get paid enough for somebody to talk to me like that, okay? He can't talk to me like that. And so the next time we talked to apologize and then he just did it again. Well, wow. So I ended up, you know, it ended up going to my editor. And he's like, well, we're not going to write about that.

00;26;19;28 - 00;26;39;12
Unknown
You know, that's that's a personal thing. And it should not end up in our news coverage. And I'm like, and as it turns out, yes, it should have. That was a really bad decision on his part because clearly the guy was flawed, you know, fatally flawed in the way he treated women. And he didn't sexually harass me, but he harassed me.

00;26;39;13 - 00;26;59;09
Unknown
Sure. And so I do feel like that should have been mentioned in the story. Think of all the pain and suffering that could have been avoided. That's what I mean, you know, so there are decisions like that being made now still that I think are the wrong decisions so that it doesn't become a personal thing when it's that's part of the story.

00;26;59;10 - 00;27;26;03
Unknown
You know, it's not necessarily personal between those two people. It becomes a pattern. Yeah, exactly. If you ignore it that you've done the reader or the viewer a disservice by not telling the truth, that's how I look at it. I find that the stories that I am getting the most from and the journalism, you know, the journalists who I'm following the most are on Substack.

00;27;26;05 - 00;27;48;14
Unknown
Really? Yeah. The people, people who have lost their job for. Okay, so there's a guy, Moran, I forget his first name. His brother worked with me at the Union Tribune. Chris Moran, I think his name is he. You know who that is? He was he he interviewed Trump, and Trump said, you know, you're really lucky that, you know, I let you interview me in anyway.

00;27;48;14 - 00;28;25;29
Unknown
So like, I don't know. Six months later, he ended up saying some bad things, personal opinions that he wrote in a blog or something, or on social media, I can't remember. And he lost his job. Well, that's a line you don't cross, right? See, because you you have to keep your personal opinions to yourself. Absolutely. Yeah. So because he wasn't attacked by Trump and he wasn't responding to something that Trump attacked him, he just said some opinions where he criticized the people, including, I think the president and I can't remember the words he used, but it was, I don't know, it was greed or something.

00;28;25;29 - 00;28;45;25
Unknown
I can't remember. There's so much to choose from. I can't remember what it was, but he ended up losing his job. And so there are there are rules that you have to follow, that you there are things you can't do and there are things you can do. So, you know, if you're not a journalist, you may not understand all those subtleties, but but we we know where those lines are supposed to be.

00;28;45;26 - 00;29;07;20
Unknown
And so that's why I felt it was so important for Katrina not to have sex with Ken Goode. Which was what we were originally taught back. Yes, exactly. Back to our characters. But I do you know, I do want to say that like, there's there's still good journalism out there, but the papers, the networks are being bought by people with nefarious plans.

00;29;07;22 - 00;29;27;01
Unknown
Oh, God, it's horrible right now, CBS and I know she's going to say, look at you, CBS, and we've just lost a national treasure. And Stephen Colbert, I'm so sad about that. You know, I'm going to watch it tonight. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, you know what? I'll probably do that with you apart. But with you we can text.

00;29;27;02 - 00;29;55;03
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. But you know, and I think it's stories like this that, you know, in staged a thriller that remind us of the importance of good journalism, of good investigative reporting, of good ethics. Exactly. Yeah. And especially when you're investigating something, when you keep hearing about corruption. It's what I always said was really hard about being a journalist, is I had to hold myself to a higher standard than anyone I was covering.

00;29;55;03 - 00;30;16;18
Unknown
Because if you're going to be writing critical stories, you can't live in a glass house. You've got to be perfect. You've got to be good. You can't make mistakes. You can't, you know, conduct yourself in a way that shows you don't have ethics or morals. If you're going to be writing critical stories about other people and saying that they don't have ethics or morals and absolutely.

00;30;16;19 - 00;30;37;08
Unknown
Yeah, you have to have a clean record. I mean, look at what happened with the whole that female NFL player who ended up, you know, with photos of her kissing the that was it. The Patriots coach. Did you follow that story? I did not. Okay. So I mean it's like stuff like that. You're not supposed to do that.

00;30;37;10 - 00;30;59;18
Unknown
Don't do that. That's not a good look. And they're both married you know they're both you know anyway. So that is what is so important to me about these characters that I feel it's, it's it's harkening back to a time where that stuff was still considered really important. And it was in the forefront of, of our minds as journalists at that time.

00;30;59;19 - 00;31;36;03
Unknown
Absolutely. And I love that Ken Goode's name is, in fact, Goode. Well, that's why that yeah, he embodies what is good in, you know, so he's a detective and he has morals. He has ethics. He's not crossing the line, but damn it. He wants to write. Exactly. And and I just want to say that I wanted to maintain that distance between them, because I feel like it allowed those characters to then come together in a more emotional way, in a more mature relationship kind of thing.

00;31;36;06 - 00;32;04;19
Unknown
Like, you know, people dive into bed too soon. They don't. They're not going to develop the same bonds of friendship and have have the potential for a real relationship. You know, in most cases, I'm not saying in every case, but that's kind of what I was going for. And at at some point, you know, and they're both coming from, from troubled past and relationships that were not healthy for them.

00;32;04;19 - 00;32;23;23
Unknown
So they both are coming to this dynamic with from a position of celibacy. And it's not religious and it's not moral. It's because it was just better for their personal well-being to not just to just take a break. And that's when they meet each other. And they're both, you know, different reasons. Different things happen to each one of them.

00;32;23;23 - 00;32;50;00
Unknown
But they're coming from a kind of a common state of celibacy. And so, you know, then there's a risk, because they've tried to stay away from having relationships or intimacy with other people because it damaged both of them in different ways. And so it's I found that to be endearing, you know, that they could really come together but keep that distance for as long as possible.

00;32;50;00 - 00;33;11;00
Unknown
And then later in the series, you know, there will be there will be consummation. Good to know, just in case people think that I'm really, you know, like some zealot. I'm not well. And you know that things do happen. Like, you know, we're not we're not saying nothing happens and we don't want to give anything away. But I agree with you.

00;33;11;01 - 00;33;34;28
Unknown
Like, I think the tension of not jumping into bed together is actually way more interesting. And, you know, we're waiting for that next conversation. We want to know, like, you know, and good luck. Things slip about how he really feels, you know, and then they're like volleying in a way, but in a, in a way that is, is very innocent but also incredibly sexy.

00;33;35;00 - 00;33;40;23
Unknown
Oh, good. I'm glad that works for you. That was my.

00;33;40;25 - 00;34;00;15
Unknown
And there you know, and I find it really cool how they're solving these cases together, but yet they're fighting each other at the same time. So talk they're not allowed to share information. Like, again, you're not allowed to date your sources. You're also not allowed to exchange information. If you're a police officer, you're not supposed to be given away your investigation.

00;34;00;15 - 00;34;23;16
Unknown
And if you're a reporter, you're not supposed to be given away your sources that you know and helping with the investigation. That's actually another rule. Okay. So we are not an arm of law enforcement as journalists. We are not supposed to be helping them. We are supposed to be separate because we're supposed to be watchdogs. Right, right, right.

00;34;23;18 - 00;34;46;24
Unknown
And so that's another rule. You can't do that. You can't be a watchdog if you're effectively working together. Exactly. So they are kind of working more together in this book than they were previously. But some some of it is completely outside the main case that they're both working on. So, for example, you know, the book opens with Katrina's parents being murdered.

00;34;46;25 - 00;35;06;17
Unknown
Now we learn about that in hooked that five years before she comes back to San Diego, which is what she does and hooked. She's just arrived back in San Diego after being away for five years and five years ago. Her two parents, who were federal judges, were gunned down in their driveway. And so she got some advice from police.

00;35;06;18 - 00;35;27;09
Unknown
You know, you you don't you lay low and take off because her brother was also, you know, in a suspicious death. You know, they said it was an overdose, but she was still thinking it was a murder, and partly because it was six months before her parents were murdered. She just as always, did that he was murdered, too.

00;35;27;09 - 00;35;59;07
Unknown
And so she she is investigating those suspicions in staged. And she's doing that with good because it's not an official investigation that she's writing about for the paper. So I felt like that was ethically okay to do for, for, you know, for them to help each other, for him, to help her, essentially because it's a cold case now, because the police have, you know, clearly dropped the ball, which turns out to be part of the corruption that they act, but they can't prove.

00;35;59;07 - 00;36;24;13
Unknown
And so they're also looking into that. How much of the corruption in this book is based on real corruption, considering not nearly enough, you know, I mean, the thing is, we have so much corruption in real life right now. It's it's very difficult to write a believable book about corruption as like such smaller scale. But yes, there is corruption at every level.

00;36;24;13 - 00;36;58;00
Unknown
However, when I was a government reporter, I often found that it was really more incompetence and than it was corruption. Right. But but this book is, you know, there are bigger things happening and their suspicions that it's bigger and more corrupt. And that's what the book, that's what the series is about. And with every book that you learn more and more about what's really going on and in hooked, you know, these two people are found and it's a suspicious deaths.

00;36;58;04 - 00;37;19;03
Unknown
You don't find out till the end of that book what really happened. But it turns out that really isn't all that happened. That was just the tip of the iceberg. So in stage that you peel back some more layers and it turns out to be much more corrupt than you had even they had even imagined. And then by the time you get to book three, you get even more, you know, and you see more of what was going on.

00;37;19;03 - 00;37;36;26
Unknown
And it becomes it just gets bigger and bigger. I like to imagine that you have one whole wall in your writing room that has, like the red strings going from like clue to clue and like tying and all the people in the timeline. It's all in your head, really. I wish it was on the wall they have on TV, because maybe that'd be easier.

00;37;36;26 - 00;37;56;06
Unknown
But no, I keep all that in my head. Honestly, sometimes every once in a while I'll do a tree on a piece of paper, but it's pretty much in my head. Or sometimes, you know, when I outline something, I'll put it into, you know, text. But yeah, yeah, I have to keep all that straight. Absolutely. And there's a lot to keep straight.

00;37;56;06 - 00;38;15;01
Unknown
There's a lot of characters. There's a lot of new ones. So yeah, that's I would like to see that wall created because I'm worried for your head at this point. Well, you mean one of those saws. And I'll cut open the top of my head and you can we can pull it all out. Yeah.

00;38;15;03 - 00;38;47;05
Unknown
What is your favorite part about writing this series in particular? Well, it allows me to take all of the crazy things that happened to me in my professional life, and all the crazy things that happened to me in my personal life, and I actually have a place to put them down on paper. It's really kind of a it's kind of closure because I, you know, there's a lot of stuff that happened to me in my life that was traumatic or embarrassing or whatever, and I thought about writing a memoir, but I'm like, what is the message of this memoir?

00;38;47;07 - 00;38;57;16
Unknown
And it would be so personal, and I don't want to do that. So I'm just writing these novels because it allows me. And you don't know what those things are, you know? Yeah.

00;38;57;19 - 00;39;25;19
Unknown
But yeah, I mean, I've had a lot of stuff happen to me that it's really good to just get it out and give it to these characters. It makes the characters real because yes, these things really did happen. Yeah, the cathartic release, I love it, it's awesome. And one of the, one of the things that happened in real life that I kind of used as a basis for some of this in, in this book and also in the next one, hopefully will be published soon, was stripper Gate you remember stripper gate?

00;39;25;20 - 00;39;57;02
Unknown
No. Okay. So stripper gate, there were three city councilman San Diego. Oh, yes. I do remember they were accused of accepting campaign donations, but they were really bribes. That was the accusation. And the thing that drove me insane was there was another reporter who kept saying they were being investigated for bribery. They were never charged with bribery, but it kept being in the paper every single day that they were being investigated for bribery, which was just inaccurate.

00;39;57;03 - 00;40;20;29
Unknown
Yeah. I remember the first with bribery. Yeah. They were accused kind of, you know, anecdotally, but they had to prove that. And they were not charged with bribery ever. So that made me insane because that's not good journalism. Absolutely. Yeah. It made me really angry. And as it turns out, one of the councilmen was convicted and went to prison.

00;40;21;00 - 00;40;55;21
Unknown
One of them died before the trial. Wow. He died of cirrhosis of the liver, and one of them was acquitted. And so I was actually trying to write a book about it. And nobody in New York cares about San Diego politics, even though this law that they were charged under honest services applies to every person in public office, from dogcatcher to mayor, anywhere across the nation, in any city of any size, it applies to everyone, but I could not get them interested.

00;40;55;21 - 00;41;21;29
Unknown
And so I wrote about that for the paper when it was happening. And so it was a corruption trial, essentially corruption case. And the funny thing to me was that the amounts that they were accused of taking were so minuscule that the FBI spent all this time and money in this investigation for literally laughable amounts of money because they really thought that they were going to remember.

00;41;21;29 - 00;41;51;09
Unknown
And there was the cheetahs, the exotic dancers, and the strip club owners who were laundering campaign donations through the strippers and all that stuff. So, I mean, I actually watched a raid happening and knew it was going to be happening because I had a tip that it was going to be happening, and so I could watch the FBI agents all line up at the flagpole right in Civic Center, and then go into City Hall and and serve warrants and search places.

00;41;51;10 - 00;42;17;29
Unknown
You know, it was like so I kind of drew from my experience covering that case. Wow. About some of this stuff. Yeah. I mean, you really do have this vantage point that most, most thriller writers don't have real life experience within corruption cases that you've actually investigated. Yeah. Well, and not only did I write about it for the paper, I spent two years researching this for a book that never ended up getting written.

00;42;17;29 - 00;42;43;23
Unknown
And to this day, I'm so frustrated about that. I always wanted to write that book, and so now there's no way that'll ever get published because like I said, the amounts were so minuscule. Now we're talking about 11.7 $8 billion slush funds going to direction. You know, I mean, how how can you get. Right. I mean, it's just that's why New York doesn't care about San Diego politics.

00;42;43;25 - 00;43;00;22
Unknown
Well, this is before or anything like that even happened. And this is not happening in New York. This is happening in our federal government now. But I'm just saying the amounts in this in stripper gate were like, you know, $20,000 or something. I can't remember, but it was like, oh, wow. Like really small or like $5,000 at a time.

00;43;00;23 - 00;43;31;03
Unknown
It was like, so nothing. But that was like mid $2,000 though, right? Right. That's true. Still it was still, still very little money. Crazy, crazy. So what what do we have in store for Katrina and good in book three? Can you give us a hint without spoilers? Yeah, like I said, the same. The stakes just keep getting higher and we learn more and more about the in in the hooked.

00;43;31;06 - 00;43;51;24
Unknown
We think that there's just one person responsible. Then he kind of, you know, says, hey, you know, my dad was involved. And then we get to staged and then those two people are dead almost immediately. So I'm not really giving anything away because it happens almost right away. Yeah. And then we find out it wasn't just the two of them.

00;43;51;24 - 00;44;31;15
Unknown
It's this whole bigger, bigger, you know, cabal. We. And so they find out, go deeper and deeper and find out more and more. And you know, people who are involved in this whole thing are trying to pretend or not and trying to steer them away and, you know, punish them for, you know, investigating. And it gets bigger and bigger until we get to book three, where it continues the, you know, we continue to learn more and more about who these people are and how many of them there are and, and what they do in order to, to try to catch them.

00;44;31;17 - 00;44;55;28
Unknown
So it just gets it just keeps getting bigger and bigger in the stakes are higher and higher. And in books book three is more like action. And there's all kinds of stuff. Yeah, I think this first two are kind of quiet, but the next book, you know, I end up bringing in some helicopters and all kinds of, you know, there's Swat teams and all kinds of stuff that I, you know, had to to have a lot of beta readers on that to make sure I got all that right.

00;44;56;00 - 00;45;11;18
Unknown
The situation like that would never that has never happened. You know, it was like so much. It was just really fun. That's just page five. Yeah. And then book four.

00;45;11;21 - 00;45;32;19
Unknown
If it ever gets published, I may have to self-publish it. I hope not, but book for, you know, from day one and hooked. The reason for this corruption is because people want this sexual enhancement drug to to get approved by the FDA so it can be released to the public because these rich white men want or have invested their money in this drug.

00;45;32;19 - 00;45;53;05
Unknown
And so they it's not only a matter of an investment paying off, it's also they want to use the drug themselves, of course. Yeah, yeah. And so before the drug is finally released, approved by the FDA and it's finally released and mayhem ensues. Of course it does. You know, I was listening. That was really fun to read. I bet it was.

00;45;53;05 - 00;46;15;05
Unknown
I bet it was when I was the other day, I was listening to 99 pie, 99% invisible, which is sort of I don't know if you've ever listened to that podcast with Roman Mars. It's awesome. But there was an episode about drug naming, and I thought of you because Vital Role by Telephone is the name of the drug that you're speaking of, and it was such a good company.

00;46;15;06 - 00;46;26;07
Unknown
That's the name of the company and not the name of the drug. No, there are two drugs, one for men and one for women. Fantastica and metabolism.

00;46;26;10 - 00;46;48;05
Unknown
If there's a email version. Because, like, Viagra is just for men. So in this podcast for £0.99, they talk about where the name Viagra came from. And it's a I won't give it away. But it was a fascinating story and you did a damn good job of naming your drugs. You know, there's a certain poetry that goes into naming these drugs.

00;46;48;05 - 00;47;09;07
Unknown
There's also a lot of rules and regulations they have to follow. Well, I had to make sure that I didn't call it something that actually existed. Right. Right, exactly. Yeah. But it also has to have a certain lyrical quality to it so people remember it. Right? Right. So that's pretty awesome. Well thank you, thank you, thank you so much, Caitlin.

00;47;09;07 - 00;47;31;20
Unknown
And I just want to yeah I love talking about Goode and Katrina. And I just want to tell our listeners, you want to read these books? If you love thrillers, if you love investigative journalism, if you love strong female characters, you're going to absolutely love hooked end stage. But also, if you want to take a vacation in San Diego, this book does that.

00;47;31;20 - 00;47;59;12
Unknown
It's such a great trip through San Diego, and you learned so much about it and things that you know, that you brought up, like the munchkins and on hills. Hillside drive was so fun, by the way. Yeah, yeah, I looked it up on Redfin and it sold in 2022 for $2.7 million. Okay, okay. What's it worth now? I don't know.

00;47;59;20 - 00;48;14;02
Unknown
Probably more, probably more. The the housing prices have kind of gone down. They've stabilized, if anything. Right. Well, okay. Well, I still think we should all put our money together and buy it so that.

00;48;14;04 - 00;48;34;15
Unknown
Before they tear it down and. Yeah. Another McMansion. I feel like it should be turned into a historical site. And I don't know, I wish they would, but I. It's probably too late. Maybe there's a mills act thing restriction on it. Who knows, maybe 1935 is what it was built. The legend of Hillside Drive.

00;48;34;17 - 00;48;55;07
Unknown
Well, good luck. And I want to mention, actually, why don't you tell us about your book launch? I think readers, listeners, come to the book launch party. I'm going it is tonight this June 16th. And where is it and when is it? It's going to be at piety, which is my one of my favorite Italian restaurants that my partner and I go to.

00;48;55;08 - 00;49;20;06
Unknown
And I've been going there for over 30 years. And the reason that we're having it there is these two characters actually meet at the bar in piety in. Yeah. And and then they were so excited. They wanted to do an event for me. And I was excited to to go there and have it. And I said, hey, you guys have a whole chapter in stage two.

00;49;20;08 - 00;49;46;10
Unknown
So they they go to the bar again and they're sitting having actually very emotional conversation at the bar, and it's an entire chapter. So they're having me back. It's at 5:00 and it's open to the public. I'd love to see everybody come down. I'm going to be selling and signing books and would love to say hello. Awesome. I will definitely be there.

00;49;46;10 - 00;50;11;03
Unknown
So I will see you tonight. Awesome. Thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, this has been amazing. We love your work. Oh thank you. Thanks for listening. And if you would like to get more of Caitlin's books, you can learn more about her on her website Caitlin Rother. Also, there's a bookbub deal if you want to go check that out, it's Bookbub.

00;50;11;05 - 00;50;35;23
Unknown
You can follow her on Facebook at Caitlin Rother and on Instagram at the. It's the real Caitlin Rother separated with underscores, but you can look her up and find her. This has been another episode of The Premise. You can visit us online at The Premise Podcasts. Subscribe and rate or review the premise wherever you get your podcasts. Those reviews really help us get the word out and helps people like Caitlin sell more books.

00;50;35;24 - 00;50;47;10
Unknown
You can follow me, your host on Instagram at Jeniffer Thompson Consulting, or follow me on Facebook at Jeniffer Thompson Consulting. Until next week. Thanks for listening. Goodbye. Goodbye.