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A weekly interview podcast hosted by Melissa Hague features Courageous Coaches who explore the grit and bones of what it takes to be truly courageous. Whether you're a coach, consultant, or a leader, join us each week to explore what it really takes to be transformational in your coaching practice, your business, and your life.
Melissa Hague (00:01.72)
Welcome to the Courageous Coach podcast. Thank you so much for being here. Today, I'm joined by Diane Lloyd. So lovely to have you here. Thank you for agreeing to come on and be my guest. We're gonna have a great conversation. Diane and I talk often, so conversations feel very natural, or they do for me anyway.
Diane Lloyd (00:14.831)
My pleasure.
Melissa Hague (00:26.466)
very natural. So I'm hoping we're going to have a great conversation and it's going to flow very easily as we talk about all things courage. So Diane, welcome. So lovely to see you. It's always lovely to see you. Tell us, let's start as we always do, tell us a little bit about you.
Diane Lloyd (00:34.819)
Hmm.
Diane Lloyd (00:39.862)
Lovely to see you.
Diane Lloyd (00:46.869)
Hmm, a little bit about me. Well, I am I'm in Canada on the west coast in Victoria, British Columbia, but I'm a prairie girl in my heart. So central Canada and moved out west. Yeah, 2526 years ago. So yeah, I'm a leadership coach. I've been coaching in that space for 13 years, but have this like origin identity of coach because I coach synchronized swimming when I was
my teens and early 20s, I actually went to Australia and coached there. Thought that was going to be my, I don't know if we've ever talked about that, but that was going to be my, my career was, yeah, synchronized swimming coach. Anyway, decided that was not potentially where my path was. So yeah, I had a great career in sport management and fundraising and then discovered coaching at 43 and did the midlife shakeup of, I think,
Melissa Hague (01:22.798)
No.
Diane Lloyd (01:45.135)
Coaching is what I've always been meant to do, but I had to get brave and leave the job that I was told, you know, the things I was told were important, like good salary and a pension and status in the community and walk away from that and pursue coaching, which is really, I think, my purpose. And so super grateful. I do acknowledge that the...
hardest decisions that I've made always required courage, but they were always like the life-changing pivots. And so I love talking to you about courage today.
Melissa Hague (02:20.756)
Yeah. Yeah. Lovely. did, I never knew about the synchronized swimming thing. That's fascinating. I'm like, I don't know that. That's amazing. okay. So I think it's, it's, it's interesting to me because I know I, I like to start with the, what does courageous coaching look like for you, Diane? And I mentioned in the intro for this episode about how you and I met through the
Diane Lloyd (02:27.113)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (02:50.658)
the Dare to Lead program training with Brene. And I think actually, I didn't say this in the intro, but we weren't in the same cohort, right, with Brene. We were in different cohorts, we? And we came together after the program, both as facilitators and just as I now we talk regularly and have been on that kind of journey, that courage building journey ourselves. And I think that's really important, right? I think certainly for you and I is that it's been as much a journey for us.
Diane Lloyd (02:58.775)
No.
Diane Lloyd (03:14.159)
Hmm.
Diane Lloyd (03:18.041)
Hmm.
Melissa Hague (03:20.91)
in our kind of courage building, getting brave in our own lives as it is supporting the people that we work with to be courageous. So I still want to ask that question, what does courageous coaching mean to you? Because I'm kind of like, oh, I wonder if it'll be the same as what it means to me. I don't know. yeah, so tell me, tell me a little bit about what courageous coaching looks like in your work.
Diane Lloyd (03:40.239)
Mmm.
Diane Lloyd (03:47.415)
Yeah, and was thinking about the world, the word work, because I think about it as like, how am I showing up as coach? And how am I showing up as an entrepreneur, like the business side? So I think for me, courageous coaching in coaching, for me now means not being afraid to explore emotions in coaching. So being curious about
Melissa Hague (04:03.233)
Mm-hmm.
Diane Lloyd (04:15.299)
Yeah, the emotions that are emerging in a coaching conversation for the coachee and not, I think I was more hesitant before the Dared to Lead training to talk about shame or talk about grief or some of these harder emotions. And I'm not as tentative around that. And so I think that's where I'm braver and to also challenge, challenge coaches to just be more courageous to ask harder questions.
challenge, I was probably and maybe still have a bias of more of a cheerleading coach, like encouraging, you know, positive appreciative. And now I'm more comfortable in dancing in both of both that I call it the stretch and the support. So I think that's made me a braver coach.
Melissa Hague (04:53.592)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (05:02.146)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I think that hard emotions thing is an interesting one, isn't it? Because I've always thought of myself as pretty emotionally intelligent, self-aware, all of those kind of things. But I think like most human beings, there are certain emotions that are quite hard, very hard.
for us to manage and regulate and be curious about, right? And you mentioned some of them there, right? Shame, like grief, mean, ah ha, right? Those are tough, right? That was a thing for me, right? Tough emotions. But there's something about the courage to recognise it in yourself first.
Diane Lloyd (05:36.239)
Mm-hmm.
Diane Lloyd (05:40.407)
Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa Hague (05:56.166)
And to begin to potentially recognise and communicate it, name it with others. Because there's one thing about, I mean, if we took shame as an example, right, it's, if we can't see it, feel it, recognise it in us, how do we recognise it and support others who are perhaps struggling with shame? So that hard emotions thing, that's a big part of the work, isn't it? The courage building work.
Diane Lloyd (06:25.359)
Yeah. And as you say that, I think one of the things I'm most grateful for from Dare to Lead is the empathy skill building. Not getting hooked into fixing, solving, saving, but yeah, being able to be curious about emotions and just hold that space for people to explore them. My empathy's my, I had so many misses with empathy in my life I recognize now and still do and have to circle back.
And wow, it has changed. That work has changed my understanding of empathy and how to show up with empathy for others. Yeah. Super grateful.
Melissa Hague (07:05.742)
Yeah, I mean, think the biggest, mean, yeah, empathy is, again, another big part of the work. But I think the thing that I really learned from from doing Dare to Lead and then, you know, further into the courage building work is this idea that empathy isn't about kind of rushing someone into the light, you know, or towards the light. And I think, you know, as a coach, it's so important that we are able to sit
Diane Lloyd (07:26.092)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa Hague (07:34.442)
with the discomfort of difficult emotions, particularly in our client, obviously in our clients, so that, we can essentially sit with them in the dark whilst they, you know, they work through what they need to work through rather than what can I do? What tool have I got or what technique have I got or how can I help them to move out of this uncomfortable space? Yeah, let's reframe this. How could we make this positive, right? Exactly. Exactly.
Diane Lloyd (07:44.591)
Mm-hmm.
Diane Lloyd (07:54.868)
Yeah, reframe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's get us both out of this discomfort. Yeah. I think that's brave coaching. Yeah. So I'm curious. were you were curious if my definition was different. How do you think of courageous coaching in your work?
Melissa Hague (08:06.038)
Agree. Yeah, agree.
Melissa Hague (08:13.774)
So I think similarly, right, there's this whole piece around our ability to be with the discomfort of vulnerability, ours and our clients, and letting go of the things you mentioned, right, letting go of the need to know, letting go of the, I've got it all together, embracing that kind of, I'm messy and perfect and human too.
Diane Lloyd (08:37.807)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa Hague (08:43.788)
And there's real courage in that because I think when we engage in something, whether it's coaching or training or facilitation or leadership, we can approach those things with this feeling that we need to be in control or have all the answers or be able to fix stuff or to be professional or there's that word professional, whatever that means, right?
Diane Lloyd (09:05.113)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Melissa Hague (09:10.19)
And so we go in with and that's just all armor, self protection, as we would call it, right. It's, um, so yeah, there's something for me about I can be with vulnerability, but not just my client's vulnerability, but my own as well. Um, um, and I think that the other thing with courageous coaching is the, um, the not knowing. I mean, not, you know, not knowing for me, not just in coaching in life, not knowing for me, it's been my
Diane Lloyd (09:33.956)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (09:40.012)
biggest continues to be my biggest development area being comfortable with not knowing I am a Noah and it's a learned behavior and I've had it, you know, my life and just really slowly, slowly unpacking and being kind to myself around that because in coaching we are, we're not there to know. And I like to know.
Diane Lloyd (09:47.98)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa Hague (10:09.102)
So, know, yeah, exactly, exactly. And, know, we all want to be good at what we do and, you know, add value and save the world. so it's just, I think the whole not knowing thing for me is, is probably, I think in my own journey, the biggest step into courage as a coach is that not knowing and sitting, as you say, sitting with that uncertainty and that vulnerability of just
Diane Lloyd (10:09.16)
Yeah, yeah, our brain loves certainty knowing like, yeah, yeah.
Melissa Hague (10:38.254)
I don't know. not, no, you know, just asked a question I don't know the answer to. You know, it's just, yeah. So yeah, similarly, similarly.
Diane Lloyd (10:45.997)
Yeah, yeah, there's such a strong connection, I think, between, you know, powerful coaching or effective coaching, whatever label we want to put on it and our own relationship and understanding of vulnerability, just the way you're saying that I think is so profound and which is why everyone should take your courage program because it makes you a better coach, right?
Melissa Hague (11:07.694)
100%. I think that because I think the thing is, is that when I was doing my initial kind of coach training, if you like, you know, my initial kind of coach development, you know, they talked about, you know, not knowing and you don't have to have the answers and you're not the expert in the room and all of those things. And they I was told those things, I was taught those things, but I didn't learn them.
And do you just by the difference, someone taught me, but I didn't really learn it then. And it wasn't really until I started doing Deadly and then, know, courageous coaching work, I was like, this is the unlearning for me. This is, I've got to unlearn this. It's not enough to just know that that's what I should be doing or I should be like. I've got to unlearn this. And that requires some work. That requires some hard work, right?
Diane Lloyd (11:37.869)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Diane Lloyd (12:00.889)
Yep.
Diane Lloyd (12:05.827)
Yeah, I'm learning. Yeah.
Melissa Hague (12:06.604)
Yeah, definitely, definitely. And so that's interesting, actually, the unlearning. So now I'm thinking about, what else have I had to unlearn? And I wonder what Diane might have had to unlearn.
Diane Lloyd (12:10.178)
Yeah.
Diane Lloyd (12:14.169)
Mm-hmm.
Diane Lloyd (12:18.179)
Hey.
so many things that yeah, perfection stuff and the as you were talking, I just had this flash of how this courage building work has served me in this work I do with Royal Roads University here in teaching in the executive coaching program and how like what an arena that was for me to enter.
Melissa Hague (12:23.854)
You're a f***ing...
Diane Lloyd (12:49.359)
as a faculty member in the program that I was trained in. so it was like this dream to be able to be part of this team. And then it happened and then I was like, oh my gosh, like I'm here. And so all that imposter syndrome, all of that stuff. And because I was in Dirt Elite so deeply through that, I was like, oh, this is a vulnerability. This is your shame stuff showing up, Diane, all your worthiness, all the things.
like using all the tools to support me in that arena where I didn't feel good enough, I didn't feel ready. Just like going to the training with Brene, didn't feel good enough. Someone's going to figure out I shouldn't be here. Like, how did I get in? These people are amazing. All of that stuff. And just recognizing it's the discomfort of vulnerability. And I can move through that with self-compassion and self-belief and, and
Now I'm losing my train of thought, it just isn't really making me feel super grateful to have, like we teach the things we're meant to learn. So I think that's why Dare to Lead came my way, because I needed to sit in that curriculum like 40 times to feel like I can embody it in myself and truly live, you know, not all the time, but live more into my courage than my fear.
Melissa Hague (13:53.281)
and
Melissa Hague (14:17.897)
Yeah, I mean, I chuckle, I chuckled and I'm chuckling internally as I was listening to you, because I was thinking, I remember that, you know, being sat in the room with all of these people and there's Brené and little old me, just little old me, you know. But there's something really interesting in what you just said as well, because I think that I went to the Dare to Lead programme with a kind of
Diane Lloyd (14:30.189)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (14:45.686)
there's a real sense here that I'm going to learn this profound, I'm going to not found, I'm going to learn this amazing curriculum, it's going to be brilliant. And then I'm going to go away and I'm going to, I'm going to teach leaders to be courageous, that's going to be amazing. Which I now know was naive, but it really wasn't when I did because most of the
leadership development tools I trained in, that was what happened. You went along, someone trained you and then you went and trained everyone else, right? And, and I, know, it sort of hit me like a bit of a brick wall during the training programme where I was like, I think I've got to do this work myself before I do it with other people.
Diane Lloyd (15:12.087)
Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa Hague (15:31.79)
Or I've got to do it whilst I'm doing it with other people. This is not about me being the expert. That was the first time. This is not about me being the expert in the room and having all the answers. So that whole thing around who you are is how you coach or who you are is how you lead. These are real truths for me now because I'm doing this work because like, I love that you said that, doing this work because it's the work I need to do as a coach.
Diane Lloyd (15:47.881)
How you lead.
Melissa Hague (16:00.43)
Yeah, totally,
Diane Lloyd (16:03.073)
you've given me this flashback to being in that training. I remember it was day two and you know how she talks about like day two is going to be a hard day, but come back and we're like, okay, come, come in day two. And you know, all our stuff is under the table phones, like every, all the distractions are under the table. And I remember her talking about the concept of gatekeeping, like watch out for gatekeeping and, and, and, and just like you're describing, I was like cognitively, okay, I understand gatekeeping.
Melissa Hague (16:10.358)
Yeah.
Diane Lloyd (16:31.725)
I guess she talked about that in day one. So day two, we're into the shame and we're going into all the hard stuff. And my brain kept telling me, need to pick up your phone. You need to like look at your phone. The kids are texting you something's going on. My brain wanted to gatekeep me from the hard emotional experience. It was so visceral because then I had that, this is gatekeeping. Like I want out of this. I'm so uncomfortable. So I'm going to distract myself with my phone. Yeah, it was so
Melissa Hague (16:56.844)
Yeah. Yeah.
That is super, super interesting, right? The whole how do we, it's because it's how we keep ourselves safe. Our brain is trying to keep us safe from something it thinks is risky or dangerous and that we, you we need to, we need to move away from. But isn't it funny how it isn't always blindingly obvious because our brains are actually quite clever, right? You know, you need to look at your phone or I've even had it where I've like,
Diane Lloyd (17:01.263)
We're good.
Yeah.
Diane Lloyd (17:22.516)
a hundred percent.
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (17:29.056)
I'm really, I really need to go to the loo. I went like 10 minutes. I don't I don't need to but my brain's telling me I must go to leave the room and go for a week. It's it's it's interesting, isn't it? What our brains and our bodies do when we experience that vulnerability, it's kind of protect, move away, hide, run. And in some cases fight, right fight back. And I noticed that sometimes when I'm delivering the work.
Diane Lloyd (17:32.941)
Yeah, your bladder.
Melissa Hague (17:58.606)
you know where it's often the case that you know some people will struggle with certain topics and that the way that they deal with that struggle is you know to resist it and argue with you and and fight it and they you know and and there's something about that's that's just your brain going my goodness this is scary uncomfortable discom just get out get out and they you know you meet that resistance don't and
People always ask me about, you probably get the same, what was it like to train with Britney Haye? Like is she some sort of superstar or something? And well, she kind of is, but my response is usually based around the whole thing, but she's just a human being. And really importantly, certainly in my cohort, she kind of lives and breathes the work, she is the work.
Diane Lloyd (18:44.75)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (18:52.398)
And I think that that was the other thing that impressed me into thinking, okay, I just need to be the work. I mean, you know, I don't need to be different from that. I don't need to be on the outside of it. I need to actually kind of be living it. And so it's been quite the ride. It's been quite the ride. That's totally, Because, because if we're not done, right, I'm not now the courageous coach. I'm not all the courageous
Diane Lloyd (18:57.934)
Mm-hmm.
Diane Lloyd (19:07.967)
Yeah, living it is a ride, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa Hague (19:20.012)
human or you know sometimes I am and sometimes I'm not sometimes I choose comfort and that's okay too right and so I'm curious Diane in terms of you know where you're at in your business you know as you said thinking about courage as an entrepreneur as well and so I'm wondering what your call to courage looks like in that space right now
Diane Lloyd (19:26.639)
Yeah.
Diane Lloyd (19:45.583)
Well, I was just walking with a friend this morning and talking about the last year and how much transition I've experienced. it came from hard things, really. It was like a catalyst for change for me. Because one of the courageous things I've done is actually walked away from the Dare to Lead curriculum as Brene changed her business model. I decided
to, and intuitively I'd been thinking, maybe Diana it's time to create your own thing. So that happened and I lost my brother kind of unexpectedly. And the grief journey, said to my friend this morning, it's like the grief journey sort of wiped away these layers of resistance that I've had to really stepping into my purpose fully and being seen.
and being fully seen in my business. I've done a great job for the last 13 years of hiding in my own business, calling my brand a group, having associate coaches that I worked really hard to get work for. And yeah, kind of hiding in my own brand, which sounds odd, but that's what I was doing. So now I've come to see how
passionate I am about women in midlife, women in their 40s, 50s and 60s. And there's, yeah, and I want to bring the hard things into the conversation for women talk about menopause, talk about patriarchy, talk about shame, talk about grief. And those experiences that we navigate shape us as humans. So of course, they're shaping our leadership. And there's a lot of like invisible barriers. I think the
Peri-menopause journey is an invisible experience for many of us. And it's a big deal, but we don't talk about it enough. So I wanna bring that conversation forward. And we've all grown up in a patriarchal society and understanding the social programming that we've been conditioned around and how that holds us back as well. Patriarchy loves it when we're totally hooked into our shame.
Diane Lloyd (22:07.469)
Because when we're hooked into our shame, we're comparing, we're competing, we're self-berating. We are putting all our energy into that rather than putting our energy out into changing the world. So that's been fascinating for me to see in myself and now bring forward in my work. the world's not really going in the right direction. And so I really think midlife women
could help course correct if we could fully access our power. So yeah, so that's what I'm currently feeling brave enough to be and do.
Melissa Hague (22:42.382)
Yeah, I love it. I mean, I'm so excited, not least because I am a woman in midlife. So I'm like, it's amazing. But also because I think you're absolutely speaking to the heart of this, which is that, you know, there's a lot of courage to be yourself in midlife, right? This kind of claiming.
Diane Lloyd (22:53.443)
Yeah.
Diane Lloyd (23:09.142)
Mm. Yeah.
Melissa Hague (23:11.712)
of ourselves, this kind of, I almost kind of want to say like finding or claiming our identity, this is who I am, right? This is who I am. And some of us, think, and I see this a lot with coaches as well, I think that some of us are kind of, don't really know who we are yet, we've kind of...
Diane Lloyd (23:20.175)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (23:34.234)
like you said, followed the rules, you know, lived according to the rules of the patriarchy and all of that and that sort of created this life, right? And some of us are going, well, I don't know. But it's not fitting, it doesn't feel right or actually, I'm not actually that happy or whatever, right? And then you've got the real kind of, which is kind of sort of where I got to is the whole kind of no, no, stop, I'm not doing this anymore.
Diane Lloyd (23:45.551)
It did all the things, but yeah.
Melissa Hague (24:02.058)
not doing this. fed up trying to fit in. I'm fed up trying to follow rules that don't work for me. And you know what, I'm going to do it my way. And the people who like it my way, you know, the people who, who I connect with and who get it and are, you know, that great, come on in those of you who want to beat me down and, you know, be negative and no, no time. Thank you. This is, know, so there's something of this idea of claiming us claiming our identity, claiming who we want to be.
At a time when we are at our most vulnerable in my view, because bodies are changing, stuff is not working like it used to. Things are happening to our bodies that frankly are debilitating and scary and annoying. Absolutely. No one talks about it, you know, and in many places it's still kind of like, I'm not talking about menopause, you? So.
Diane Lloyd (24:41.167)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Diane Lloyd (24:49.347)
Confusing, yeah, annoying.
Melissa Hague (25:01.012)
it's such a melting pot. It's such a mouthful. And so as I've said to you on many occasions, I just think your program is so needed, so needed. But I hadn't taken it this step for this next step in my thinking, as you have, which is that if midlife women could step into their power, if they choose to step into their power, they are perfectly positioned to
bring about the change that is needed in the world. That blows my mind. Totally blows my mind.
Diane Lloyd (25:38.095)
Can you imagine if midlife women were making big decisions globally?
Melissa Hague (25:44.654)
Such potential there, right? And I guess, so do you, for you, and you're kind of stepping into, you know, this transition and owning, owning your business, you, this is me, does that feel like stepping into your power?
Diane Lloyd (25:59.599)
Mm-hmm.
Diane Lloyd (26:06.009)
Ooh, what a great question. It really does. Yeah. It really feels like, because I think of power as like your fully expressed potential and finding your voice. Like I remember one year I chose power as like my theme word for the year. It was like five or six years ago. And I was so surprised at the resistance people had to me choosing power as a word. And I was like, what about...
Yeah, that was, and it was like women that were like, really? Why'd you pick that word? But I feel like it's, fully being ourselves, finding our voice, finding ways to influence in our own authentic way. I think it is about being more of yourself and speaking your truth and that kind of thing. That's how I think about power. And we're, you know, as a society, we're out of balance with
with that masculine feminine energy balance, I recognize my own masculine traits of productivity, doing stuff, structured, achievement, like control versus I'm trying to let my intuition guide me more, the collaborative nature, yeah, and find my own balance in me of the masculine and the feminine, because we need both, but we've been really leaning into the masculine and that's.
been hard and I don't know that that's really working in the leadership we see.
Melissa Hague (27:37.262)
I mean, yes, yes, yes, and yes, right, I absolutely totally agree. And I think that I'm slightly intrigued. I know I'd like to talk about this intuition piece because I think that intuition is fascinating. And I also think that intuition is very important for coaches, because our intuition holds can hold or may hold.
Diane Lloyd (27:42.767)
Yeah.
Diane Lloyd (27:53.381)
yeah, yeah.
Diane Lloyd (28:00.494)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa Hague (28:04.95)
important information and data for our clients, right. So I think intuition is a really important thing. But I know that there are often for people, it can either be difficult to trust their intuition, or they don't know how to listen to their intuition. So I'm curious, because I know we again, I know we've talked about intuition before, and your intuition, trusting your intuition. So what would you share about
Diane Lloyd (28:18.136)
Mm-hmm.
Diane Lloyd (28:29.337)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (28:33.986)
First of all, how do you hear it? How do you get to hear your intuition? And how do you learn to trust it?
Diane Lloyd (28:36.779)
Mm-hmm.
those are big life lesson questions for sure. So I don't claim to have that all figured out. sure. Like that's that's my precursor caveat. For me, two things, I feel like my intuition shows up like this little voice, like a like a whispering voice. And sometimes it gets louder, but it's usually it's it feels sometimes like a drop down one liner. So
And yeah, that's all that. And then the other thing I've been practicing a lot over the last year is more somatics. Like I think my intuition is trying to express itself through my body. And so, and I was really good at operating just, you know, up here. Like what am I thinking about is, and then it was kind of my heart and actually my heart. So the question I ask myself to try to tap into my intuition is,
what does my heart tell me to do? And that when I asked and I worked with a coach to figure that out. So if I ask that question and let that answer appear, that's my intuition speaking to me. Yeah, so it's a journey. It's a journey.
Melissa Hague (29:42.446)
Mm.
Melissa Hague (29:56.334)
Yeah, absolutely. I like the idea of, of having a way to almost almost set an intention for yourself that this is this is how I'm gonna this is the question I'm going to pose in order to, let's say, activate my intuition. There's something interesting in that, think. I mean, somatics is this, again, I want to say it's gotta be the key, hasn't it? I mean, again, I'm no expert, I don't know. But I do feel like when I get in touch with my body,
Diane Lloyd (30:09.398)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa Hague (30:26.114)
and what's happening in my body. My intuition usually comes to the fore. And it's usually that kind of, I have like this sensation where I think, I've got, it's on the tip of my tongue. It's like, it's right there. And I have to kind of trust myself to sort of spit it out almost, right? Just let it out, whatever that thing is that you think is just. And I think the biggest thing for me is that I can't,
Diane Lloyd (30:42.575)
Hmm.
Diane Lloyd (30:52.569)
Hmm.
Melissa Hague (30:55.662)
I thought no, can't say the wrong word. I find it really hard to access my intuition indoors sat at my desk. Because here in this space, I mean, not in the podcast space, but in this behind me, my office, I'm absolutely here all the time. But have there's no there's no space in my office for my body. So yeah, finding the right environment as well right to access.
Diane Lloyd (31:03.009)
Yeah, yes.
Diane Lloyd (31:08.693)
Yeah. Yeah.
Diane Lloyd (31:15.855)
Mm.
Melissa Hague (31:20.622)
And then the more you do it, the more you develop it and the more you, guess, learn to trust it. So I quite, I love that in coaching sometimes when, you know, something bubbles and you can you think, where's that bubbling from? That's curious.
Diane Lloyd (31:20.931)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (31:41.12)
And then you kind of, might choose to share it and it's, you you kind of think, don't know, think there's something not being said here or there's something, something not quite congruent or lining up and what's going on here and, then naming it. Right. So there's in that, there's something about trusting your intuition, noticing it, trusting it, and then the courage to put it out there. Yeah.
Diane Lloyd (31:56.162)
Mm-hmm.
Diane Lloyd (32:03.919)
Offer it. Yeah. Offer it with no attachment and see. And yeah, sometimes I find, um, in coaching, yeah, sometimes it's like, wow. And other times it's, you know, the coach, he'd be like, no, and like, that's okay. Yeah.
Melissa Hague (32:19.852)
that's okay. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And actually, do you know what, I think that might be the same for us. You know, personally, as well, when we're when we're tapping into our intuition is that I wonder if this has only just come to us thinking would be lovely to think of your intuition is this is your intuition is offering you something. And you can kind of go, maybe not right now. Or I could take that. I wonder if there's a choice or whether it should be
Diane Lloyd (32:43.126)
Hmm
Melissa Hague (32:48.258)
just do it and try it. don't know. don't know.
Diane Lloyd (32:51.231)
Yeah, that's interesting. I think what this conversation is, yeah, evoking for me is the reflective practice of looking because now I can look in the rear view and see, like a couple of years ago, I was trying to grow my business and I was now I see I was doing that in a way that really wasn't aligned for me with my strengths, even my values. And
I look back and I remember at one point being in a meeting and my whole body was just like freaking out. And I actually blurted out like every cell in my body is telling me this is a no. Like we need to stop what we're doing right now. It's not actually the right thing. And that like my brain was saying, do the thing, but my body was screaming at me, but I hadn't, I'd been ignoring it for so long. Like it actually had to vibrate and.
freak out a little bit. But looking back, I can see, there was a lot of clues that I was on the wrong track and I wasn't listening. So I think that reflective practice is helpful to then prime the signals so that you'll recognize them sooner. That's my work to do, is listen.
Melissa Hague (33:51.562)
Yeah. Yay.
Melissa Hague (34:07.276)
Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, listen to yourself, right? Listen to your body. Listen to so many nuances, isn't there to our bodies, different sensations, different, different things happening. It's just, you know, and I sometimes I've, we do this a bit with kind of emotions, don't we, that whole kind of, well, what's what's the difference between
Diane Lloyd (34:19.747)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (34:30.542)
happy and joyful, for example. Well, how does it feel different in my body, right? And sometimes the differences are so subtle, that without the attention, the listening and the reflection, you wouldn't necessarily notice that that quite nuanced difference. Yeah, for sure.
Diane Lloyd (34:33.327)
Mm.
Diane Lloyd (34:39.054)
Mm-hmm.
Diane Lloyd (34:51.191)
It takes self-awareness, the concept of self-awareness to a whole other level. I think not just self-awareness, like cognitively, like what are my strengths or what are my values, but like being really able to listen to yourself and understand yourself physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, that is a journey.
Melissa Hague (35:13.55)
Yeah. And actually, that's reminded me of something which I thought of before and I thought I must speak to Diane about that when we're on the podcast, which was a post on LinkedIn, I think from a lady who had been on one of your midlife women webinars. And she you will hope maybe you'll remember her name so that we can credit her with the post. I should have checked before we started recording. But anyway, she she posted a beautiful post with a little post it note.
Diane Lloyd (35:19.916)
Melissa Hague (35:42.74)
love a Post-It note that said, self-awareness without self-compassion equals self-cruelty. Jessica Griffin. Well, if by any chance, Jessica Griffin, you are listening, thank you for that post. Well, it's kind of, again, it was one of those moments where I knew that
Diane Lloyd (35:53.985)
Yeah, Jessica Griffin, Jessica Griffin posted that. Yeah.
Diane Lloyd (36:02.543)
what did that do for you, Melissa?
Melissa Hague (36:11.15)
But in that moment, when I read the little post-it note, I felt it. I felt it in my body, right? Because, and I was very conscious all of a sudden of that sense of, talk, we talk, we've mentioned it today, right? We talk a lot about self-awareness. And certainly for me and you in our work, we talk a lot about self-compassion. And I think, I think,
Diane Lloyd (36:15.35)
Mmm.
Diane Lloyd (36:35.3)
Hmm.
Melissa Hague (36:39.05)
I was kind of assuming that it was obvious that you have to do both, right? Because otherwise, you know, it's just not, it isn't work. You've got to be kind to yourself. So was kind of, that's what we, and then I thought, well, shoot, maybe it isn't.
Right? And people are out there being told, you develop, you must be self aware, you know, develop your self awareness, are very important for leaders and coaches and all these, you know, professions that we talk about being important for. Oh, and by the way, you know, there's this self compassion thing as well. No, no, it's not a by the way. It's a, yeah, otherwise it's self cruelty. I mean, that, oh, that was a sucker punch for me.
Diane Lloyd (36:57.198)
and
Diane Lloyd (37:07.203)
Mm-hmm.
Diane Lloyd (37:14.124)
No, yeah.
Diane Lloyd (37:20.195)
But it's, yeah, it's so strong and visceral, isn't it? Self-cruelty, yeah. Yeah, in the session that Jessica was in, I'm noticing that the theme of confidence for midlife women is really resonating. there is, like I listened to this podcast, there's this phenomenon called not feeling like myself. And that's what women will say to their doctor. I'm not feeling like myself, but it's hard to put that equation, like what is that? Anyway, they're studying.
Melissa Hague (37:24.072)
Mmm. Yeah.
Diane Lloyd (37:50.335)
NFLM, not feeling like myself. So yeah, so this idea of, think one of the gateways to confidence is self-awareness, like who am I? And then the middle step you haven't mentioned is, I think, self-acceptance. Like, okay, this is me. I'm gonna stop trying to change myself, fix myself. I'm gonna work with who I am and bring that forward.
So self-awareness, self-acceptance, and then the self-compassion.
Melissa Hague (38:21.646)
Better, I like that too!
Diane Lloyd (38:24.097)
I love that trifecta. Yeah, I think that's been my work is to work on all three.
Melissa Hague (38:28.302)
Yeah. And, and now I got to pick up on the self acceptance thing, because I think that's I love that. I'm taking that to Diane. Thank you. I'm gonna run with that. I love it. Because I think self acceptance thing is something is interesting because
Diane Lloyd (38:37.07)
Yeah.
Diane Lloyd (38:40.631)
You take it, take it and run with it.
Melissa Hague (38:49.684)
immediately a little voice in my head, which I'm always curious about the little voice in my head who who who says, you know, well, hang on a minute, though, if we're talking about self acceptance, that just gives gives you or gives people an excuse to be bad, or an excuse to not be nor not not get better or not improve. There's that message for me. Right, that I've obviously been told at some point and tucked away.
Diane Lloyd (39:10.383)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Diane Lloyd (39:18.009)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (39:18.442)
I love this idea when I think about self-acceptance now, it is absolutely about that I am who I am, right? And I no longer want to change who I fundamentally am and certainly not because someone else tells me I should. But self-acceptance is not about saying, well, that's it, I'm done. All the good bits, all the bad bits then well, you know, that's it. For me, it is still about growth.
Diane Lloyd (39:37.519)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa Hague (39:48.12)
but it's growth from a completely different place because it's a place of worthiness. I am already worthy. I am already worthy of love and belonging. That's there. And now we're building on that, right? Versus the kind of, when we come from a place of we're not worthy, right? That's, yeah, not good. yeah, self...
Diane Lloyd (39:51.171)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Diane Lloyd (40:11.439)
Yeah. I think you're hitting on that. And I don't know where the social programming comes from, but that programming of, if I'm not reading hard on myself, I'm not going to succeed or achieve. Like I have to beat myself up in order to, yeah, be successful. Rather than, could actually, this is sparking a lot for me in this moment.
I really think Kristin Neff's work on self-compassion, her second book, Fierce Self-Compassion, was my penny drop of, that's actually the access to courage. Like if I'm gentle with myself when I'm being brave, and I have made a lot of mistakes in my courage journey, and that's okay, but if I beat myself up every time I make a mistake or try something and it doesn't work, I'm gonna stop being brave. I'm not gonna keep...
going, but if I know I'll be kind to myself, my coach calls it the anti-bullying policy. Like, do you have an anti-bullying policy for yourself? Like, yeah. Yeah, Stacey gets credit for that. And yeah, it was huge because yeah, if I can not bully myself while I'm being brave, anything's possible really.
Melissa Hague (41:19.438)
that.
Melissa Hague (41:31.086)
Totally. And I think that the whole thing around kind of confidence, courage and confidence, you know, I've been asked the question several times by different people around, you which comes first, is it confidence, then courage, then then confidence, I know for me, what I've learned, and actually, I think I've relearned it, I think I knew this as a child.
Diane Lloyd (41:44.185)
Mmm.
Melissa Hague (41:58.606)
I think I lost it in kind of late teens, maybe 20s and early 30s. And then I relearned it, if that makes sense, which is that I think confidence comes from courage. So because the courage is the courage to give it a go, to try to experiment, to maybe get it wrong, to risk failing, to risk falling. And, but knowing that
you there's a little bit you gain a little bit from that each time. And then, you know, at some point, it's kind of like, Oh, actually, this doesn't feel like courage anymore, right? This just feels like something I do something I'm good at. It's like, Oh, actually, I feel really confident now. So that's sort of how I see the kind of relationship courage is. Courage is enabling you to take that first step in and then one step more and one step more. And that's how I certainly have built confidence. But I think also as a
Diane Lloyd (42:35.983)
Hmm.
Melissa Hague (42:56.462)
Now, when I step into the courage and it does fall, I fall or it fails or it's embarrassing or shame inducing, I've now got the skills to go, oh, okay, but that's okay, right? That's okay. I can still get up, dust myself off.
Diane Lloyd (43:16.387)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa Hague (43:16.492)
and try again, whereas I think maybe even well pre-dare to lead. So not that long, know, five, six years ago, I'd have gone, I tried, it didn't work. Yeah, no, not going there again. But at least I tried once, you know, now I'm like, just, okay, none of this is world ending. So can you just keep going?
Diane Lloyd (43:23.255)
years, yeah.
Diane Lloyd (43:30.958)
Yeah.
Diane Lloyd (43:39.289)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (43:40.194)
And that's the kindness piece, right? You've got this, you're okay. You are already worthy. I say that to myself a lot. You are already worthy. Yeah, so important, so important.
Diane Lloyd (43:46.527)
Mm. Mm.
Diane Lloyd (43:51.915)
That's so good. That's a good mantra. As you were just talking about that too, think gosh, every entrepreneur should take a courage building program because what an arena that is, entrepreneurship, solopreneurship or building a brick somewhere. It's just what a rumble it is.
Melissa Hague (44:04.909)
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. Constantly, right? It feels, I had this experience recently where I was just a little bit like, just please just stop. Just just can I just have one? It felt like I mean, I was exaggerating as we often do. But can I just have one day where I can just be comfortable and revel and not be in this constant kind of
Diane Lloyd (44:25.604)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (44:31.726)
courage and you know, having to be vulnerable and this is so yeah, you're right, you know, running a business in any form, being an entrepreneur, solopreneur, whatever you say, it is.
Diane Lloyd (44:35.073)
Yeah.
Diane Lloyd (44:43.725)
You just gave me an idea. Maybe we should designate one day of the week to be our comfort day. Like one day where we could have just be comfortable and then stretch ourselves the other four days of the week or whatever. Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa Hague (44:54.092)
Yeah, totally. that's, I think we could market that. think that could work. Totally. Totally. brilliant. Well, Diane, it's been amazing talking to you, as I knew it would be. as I go all over the place and find lots of different things to talk about, we've got such, we've got such a lot of common ground, haven't we? Because we've shared this journey together, which has been really valuable and important.
Diane Lloyd (44:58.819)
Yeah, we should, yeah.
Diane Lloyd (45:03.438)
Yeah.
Diane Lloyd (45:09.32)
Yeah, this was great. Yeah.
Diane Lloyd (45:19.427)
Mm-hmm.
And it brought us together, Dare to Lead. So, so grateful for that.
Melissa Hague (45:26.03)
Absolutely, 100%. 100 % because I'd have never met you, you're all the way over there in Canada, we would never have even known we each other were on the planet. So fated, definitely. Now, Diana always liked to close with the same question. So my final question is, what's the one thing that you would like every coach to know about courage?
Diane Lloyd (45:31.663)
No.
Diane Lloyd (45:37.453)
Yeah, yes indeed.
Diane Lloyd (45:53.667)
Hmm, Tartip just be one thing. I might sneak in more than one. You know, even after having this conversation, think courage is the door opener to so much possibility. And so yeah, it really is an essential lever for coaches, essential, game changing essential. And
and to what you acknowledged earlier, I think we both agree, and we have to model the courage. We have to do our own courage building work to be a courageous coach. It's not a cognitive learn and support others with. If we're not on the journey to, there's no integrity in it. So yeah, it's a game changer. It's the gateway and it's our own. It's the gift you give yourself to.
Melissa Hague (46:48.718)
Yeah, I love that gift you give yourself. Well, Diane, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been an absolute pleasure. And we'll share all the details of Diane's program. What's the program called, Diane? Remind me.
Diane Lloyd (47:03.971)
called Inspiring Midlife Leadership.
Melissa Hague (47:06.358)
Inspiring midlife leadership. Thank you. We will share all the details of that in in the show notes. So go connect with Diane on LinkedIn. yeah, particularly if you're a midlife woman, to be fair, right? I definitely would recommend connecting on LinkedIn at the very least. Lovely. Well, take care, everyone. Thank you so much, Diane. See you all soon. Bye.
Diane Lloyd (47:15.363)
Yeah, please do.
Diane Lloyd (47:22.896)
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you, Melissa. Bye bye.