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Our co-hosts Érica, Bertrand, and Bernardo delve into the complexities of toxic behaviors in the workplace. We navigate the intricacies of what constitutes toxic behavior and how it manifests in various forms, offering insights and strategies for transforming negativity into positivity.
🎙️ In this Episode
- (00:00) - Introduction: Meet the Hosts and Today's Topic
- (00:11) - Exploring Toxicity in the Workplace
- (02:03) - The Good Side of Toxic Behaviors?
- (05:13) - Navigating the Bad and Ugly Faces of Toxicity
- (09:59) - The Impact of Toxic Behaviors on Company Culture
- (22:00) - Strategies for Preventing and Managing Toxicity
- (24:53) - Conclusion: Reflecting on Toxic Behaviors and Antidotes
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- Instagram: @bluewaves_boutique
- YouTube: @BluewavesBoutique
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Creators & Guests
What is Tinkering the Future of Work and Life?
Every week we give a fresh and positive look at the future of work. We dream of a more people-centered digital world. We share little tips and magic tricks for greater daily confidence and serenity.
Once a month, we welcome a guest with a unique story and personality. Certainly not a media star, but a genuine hero of their life!
We inspire people to embrace change and create a better and kinder world.
Bernardo: Hi, everyone.
Welcome back to the Tinkering the Future
of Work and Life by Bluewaves Boutique.
My name is Bernardo and today I'm joined
with my beautiful co hosts, Érica.
Érica: Hi.
Bernardo: And Bertrand.
Bertrand: Hi.
Bernardo: So today we have an
amazing topic all about dealing
with toxicity inside of the company.
Érica: Welcome to the Tinkering
with the Future of Work and Life,
produced by Blue Waves Boutique.
Providing you with a fresh and
positive look at the future of work,
by sharing little tips and magic tricks
for your daily dose of confidence.
Today I heard something.
Bernardo: Today I saw something.
Bertrand: Today I've tried something.
Together we have learned.
Let's call Britney Spears.
No, it's not carpool karaoke, we cannot.
Bernardo: No, I don't think Érica
would like to do karaoke now.
Érica: Not only me, but I think our
listeners wouldn't like that as well.
Bertrand: So today we don't sing?
Bernardo: No, today we don't sing.
Érica: Never.
Bernardo: Never sing?
So, I think we all know that
toxic behaviors exist everywhere,
inside companies and outside.
Bertrand: No.
Bernardo: I know.
Innovative information.
Yeah.
Bertrand: I was thinking
companies are lovely places
where everyone loves each other.
Bernardo: Can be, it would
be the perfect world, but no.
But do we know how to deal with
toxic behaviors in a positive way?
Bertrand: Yeah, maybe first, what
is a toxic behavior actually?
And how do you define toxic behavior?
Because it's quite complex, in my opinion.
So I think we can start from there.
Bernardo: So I think that we can
toxic behaviors in three aspects.
Good, bad and the ugly ones.
Bertrand: Good, the bad and the ugly.
I tell you, we will end up
singing in this podcast.
Bernardo: One day, one
day, if Érica agrees.
Bertrand: So the good,
the bad and the ugly.
So what is good?
Because I think Érica, you had
an idea about how toxic behaviors
can end up good, actually.
Érica: well, maybe The toxic behavior
normally seen as a bad thing, of course.
Normally we tend to follow the bad
examples on life, I believe that
you can return from the bad things.
Always good things.
For example, in the toxic
behaviors you have in the company.
Like people talk too much like the
gossips or other people who tend
to influence other peoples to do
the way they want to do things.
Not a leader, but as a teammates.
There's not always A bad thing.
You can influence people to do the
things in the other way, your way,
and in the end it can be a good thing.
by the way, you're
communicating with others.
Bernardo: Yeah, that's a very
good point of view, yeah.
Bertrand: Yeah, it can, because the
behavior is toxic, but depends correct me
if I'm wrong, what you say, it depends a
lot on the intention and the end result.
Gossips as such can be toxic, or mostly
toxic, but in a way, they also carry
information, in a sense, so if it's
meant with a good purpose, to inform
someone about something, or to motivate
someone, it can have a good end.
It's not obviously a terrible result.
Érica: Yes, for example, you have
always that sentence, it would
be me, I wouldn't do like that.
I will do this way.
Well, you can try
it then, you know,
life is not pink, so.
Bertrand: but sometimes you
can have a good behavior.
You took the gossip as an example.
It's often in a project
you can forget someone.
it happens very often that when people
set up teams for a project or something,
they forget to involve someone.
And if then you have gossips, people
talking at the coffee machine or
talking about the project, maybe the
information will reach this person
and give this person the capability
to be involved in the project.
So what was basically a
toxic behavior, gossip.
end up in a good result because you
get someone involved who should have
been involved and that you forgot.
Érica: Exactly, yeah.
Bertrand: The toxic behavior is not
always toxic as such and gossips for
example, it's not always a good idea
to try to tame them or kill them.
First because you cannot.
Érica: Yes.
Bertrand: And second because sometimes
it can be useful because it's a
vehicle for information as well.
Bernardo: It depends on how
you use that information
to your benefit.
Sometimes, of course, depending
on the information and on
the person who's gossiping.
Érica: Exactly.
And depending on the gossip as well.
It depends on the severity
of the gossip, you know.
Sometimes we all do that.
We tend to comment things with our
colleagues, our friends, and it
can be seen as a good if it doesn't
harm anyone or the project itself.
Bernardo: Yes.
I mean, if I gossip that the
water machine is broken, what
can you do with that information?
Nothing.
Bertrand: Buy water before you go to work.
Érica: Exactly.
Bertrand: Very useful information.
Bernardo: another phase of toxicity
are the, the bad toxic behaviors.
I think this one would be if a
person or employee or a manager
or a leader acts snobbish.
that would badly influence other people.
I don't think there's any good
outcome from that type of behavior.
It would definitely influence the
project, the teams, the way the
people communicate with each other,
what they communicate, because they
would be afraid of the repercussion.
Bertrand: You mean someone acting
as a dictator, for example,
in a project as a manager.
Bernardo: Or like a know it all.
Érica: Sorry.
Uh, it can be, yeah.
I think that's more an
aspect of personality, but
I can agree with that, yeah.
Bertrand: But it is true sometimes
people have such a behavior that they
are an obstacle for good communication
in the company being because one person
is snob or one person is yelling or
exposing way too much authority when
it's at the right moment to do, then
the other people don't get to talk.
And to say what they think and sometimes
you can miss informations because of that.
Érica: For sure, yeah.
Bertrand: Another bad one is, for
example, blaming people instead of
supporting them and empowering them.
You have this kind of
behaviors in companies.
So people will blame people or
people will blame any action.
You know, the ones who say, it's bad.
It's not good.
Let's not do that.
This is not the way to go, but
all of the time as a principle.
Not as a positive criticism,
but as a principle to be
against something permanently.
Érica: Yes, and it doesn't have a very
good outcome because then they don't
have a solution, just the problems.
Bernardo: Yeah, it's just hating
just for the sake of hating, yeah.
Érica: and how about the ugly then?
Bertrand: Yeah, because the one we talked
about is the one we can see and we can
spot because they are very obvious.
I think the ugly ones are
the ones you cannot detect.
Yeah.
You were talking about gossips, for
example, negative gossips, people mobbing
people or excluding people from a group.
Usually it's not made
in front of everyone.
It's more something which is
hidden through gossips, one on one
discussions, particularly nowadays
where people are remote and all the
information is shared digitally.
It's really a problem.
How do you see that?
If people have a secret in siren group,
just dedicated to mobbing or to blaming
the company, very difficult to spot.
Érica: Yes, and to solve it, how
can you finish that, for example?
It's very difficult, yeah.
Yeah, in the physical
company, more or less.
It's more easy to spot that even if
it's light, it's more easier, but in
the digital, in the remote, sorry.
Bertrand: It's really not good,
because how do you want to
fix something you don't see?
Anyway, I think thinking them, you
cannot, but before we go to fixing
the ugly behavior, or maybe you
have other ugly behavior to share.
Érica: how to say, to go against
the leader, more or less, you know.
You talk about the mobbing people,
the colleagues or something like that,
including someone, but when touch
the leader, they are some groups,
of course, for sure they do that.
And it's very difficult to change
that mentality of people if you skips.
Having the same leader, for sure,
I'm not explaining very well, but,
Bertrand: Maybe I have an example
for what you say because we have one
of our clients where the leadership
team is changing a lot and people
are coming from other cultures.
They are not the same
cultures as the company.
And instead of telling these people, guys,
the way you tell us things, the way you
present your stuff, we don't understand
it well, or it doesn't fit to us.
No, they choose to discuss one on one
and say, okay, our leader, he doesn't
know where he wants to go, and the
vision is not good, and it doesn't
make sense, and what they explain
doesn't make sense, and anyway they
will fail, and they will never succeed.
I was talking about
mobbing the colleagues.
But mobbing the boss exists.
Érica: Exactly, and then you have
to, well, for sure you have more,
but well, I only can think of
two ways that one zap ends up.
You have that, people just don't do
anything, just wait for the failure.
Or you have the opposite, people do
things on the back of the leader.
And the boss, they do their stuff in
the way they want and they don't take
in the attention What, say the boss.
Yeah.
I think's the
Bertrand: opposite way.
Yeah,
Érica: exactly.
Yeah.
Bernardo: They don't share what they've
been doing, what they achieved, because
they don't want to deal with that.
Érica: Exactly.
Bernardo: They don't
agree with the vision.
They don't agree with the leader
or the boss, so they exclude them.
Bertrand: Yeah.
So maybe it's them to discuss
a little bit the impact of the
toxic behaviors in the company.
The first you expose is people
doing something in the opposite
way or not doing something or not
sharing as you said Bernardo, it
leads to for sure project failures.
Bernardo: Yeah, failing or
slowing way down the project?
Érica: I think it's more failure, yeah.
Because if you have the example we
are talking about, the people doing it
the opposite way of what it's supposed
to be, what the boss says it is, the
project is not going the right direction
for sure for one or for another.
So it's a failure because you have to
have the same mission, you have to have
the same vision for the project to work.
Bernardo: Yeah, of course.
Not
Érica: you cannot.
Bernardo: I was saying the
slowing down because of the first
example of not doing anything.
Because for sure if that person
doesn't do anything, someone else
will have to pick up the slack.
And if that person is alone, the project
will slow down because they don't have
any support, they have to do everything.
Érica: Or they don't slow down
and he's a failure in the company.
Bernardo: Yes.
Bertrand: Yeah.
If it was an example there, I was having
a coffee a couple of months ago with the
top executive of an energy company here in
Portugal, top executive, but not the CEO.
And during the discussion, he was
telling me that his CEO is a failure.
really not the smartest, does a
lot of mistakes being in vision,
direction, objectives or management.
And I ask him question, but did you
tell him that you think differently,
that you have a different opinion?
And he told me, no, it's my boss.
But he discusses that with his colleagues.
Finally, they are facing issues,
problems in the projects they are
leading, but they don't discuss it with
the person who can change something.
What happens to the project?
They fail, or they slow down,
or they die by themselves.
Érica: Yes, but that actually is a very
good example for one toxic behavior
that exists in companies, the hierarchy.
When it's too hard or say you have that
type of behaviors, you, cannot change it.
Bernardo: Yeah, you complain about the top
layer, but you are afraid to do something
about the top layer, so you don't do.
Érica: So it's already existing
in a company, the toxic behavior,
even before the people create it.
Bertrand: Yeah, but imagine, after you
accuse people to boss around how do
you want a manager or leader to lead
a team or manage a team if this person
is not able to get some constructive
criticism, some feedback on what
they are doing, the way they lead?
Yes, maybe they end up bossing around.
Some of them, of course, like to boss
around, but others have no choice.
Because if you have this kind
of hierarchy where everybody is.
Scared for whatever reason,
culture, history of the company,
legacy to give feedback.
to the leader or the manager.
How do you want the manager to improve?
Érica: Exactly.
And people normally tend to think that if
you have to talk to the boss or something,
you have always to agree with them.
The culture thing.
And they don't want to
say they don't agree.
But you can always take another way.
You can say, oh, I was thinking
that maybe you can try this way.
Maybe not say I don't agree with you.
And I think this is the best way.
Take that side, that part of the sentence,
maybe, and try to make it in a, formulate
in another way, and maybe there you have a
chance that the other person, will get it.
Be able to listen.
Bernardo: Exactly.
Take their vision instead of denying it.
Say you agree, but go in a different
direction just as a test or as a
simulation to see if they agree, if
they want, if they're willing, because
blatantly denying their vision is seen
as a toxic behavior in many companies.
And people are very afraid to do that.
Bertrand: Because we are on the
topic top managers by now, as
opposed to the urban legend that
Managers always want to be right.
The amount of managers who like yes men
and not want to be challenged quite small.
Érica: Yes.
Bertrand: It's quite small.
Most of them.
They like people who challenge them, who
give their opinions, their points of view.
They're not reluctant to
take in opinion into account
Érica: Exactly, because the role of
the manager is to teach the team.
How to do things in their
way in the job basically.
So what is the point, well, at
least for me, of course, what is
the point to have a team if they
only say, yes, what you're saying?
Bernardo: Exactly.
We want, we want to, I wouldn't
call it healthy competition, but
healthy discussions in terms of point
of view and vision and missions.
If you just have a group of yes
men, none of them will grow.
Érica: Not even you.
Bernardo: Exactly.
Bertrand: Yeah.
And the company will not as well
as the project will not grow
as a project will not improve.
It's quite complicated, and on top
of that, because we're on the topic
toxic behaviors, the disagreement
will remain and will stay in the
company, and will be shared across
teammates, people, other teams.
And we have another example by now
is this kind of resistance to change.
When you try to change something in
the company, being the vision, being
the way to go or introducing a new
project, which is strategic, if you
don't expose your point of view, if you
don't share that, maybe you would do
that in a different way, or maybe you
spot challenges or issues or puzzles
that the other didn't see, and you
don't say that, sure, it goes wrong.
And then you have.
The gossips, as you say, everybody
knows that it goes wrong.
Very few people knows why, and it
makes change very difficult and
create a global resistance where
you forget the reason finally.
Érica: I think even worse than the
gossips, for me at least of course, when
you have change is the inertia of people.
You see it's going bad, you see,
well, no way it's going to work,
and you just wait to see what
happens when it will touch you.
For me that's even worse because
you're waiting just a disaster
instead of taking an action.
Even if you are a simple employee,
you can always try to talk to your
manager, to your leader, whatever,
and try to change a little bit things.
Of course, I'm not saying you
change from day to night, for sure,
but staying in inertia is even
worse than resisting the change.
It's just waiting for the disaster
to happen and you don't do anything.
Bernardo: I believe that this resistance
that we're talking about has, it's
like a coin, it has two faces.
It's just.
Érica: Mhm.
Bernardo: One face is the employees not
doing anything like you just said or
afraid of doing something So they're
just waiting for the project or the
change to fail But on the other side,
it's the way the leaders communicate
that change Explain that change what
impacts what will be what will happen?
What will become of them if that change
isn't well communicated well explained
and well visualized Of course it will
fail because nobody will understand
what's the point of that change.
So resistance will happen as well.
So there are two sides of this resistance.
Érica: Sorry, I think it's even have more.
Bernardo: So no, so no coins.
Érica: A lot of coins with a lot of faces.
You have that.
Yes.
The pushup, they just push to
people do because they don't know.
Maybe.
Sorry, to be honest.
Yeah.
But exactly that point.
And when they don't know,
what do you expect them to do?
Bernardo: Nothing, they don't know.
Érica: I expect this project to fail.
Bernardo: They don't know.
Érica: They have to know, no?
Bernardo: I don't know,
but they don't know.
And we see a lot of
that in many companies.
Bertrand: Yeah, no, it's
a bias and transparency.
People think they are very transparent
because they say they don't know.
They are not.
It's just half of the transparency
because what other people expect
and if you don't want to foster
toxic behavior, you shouldn't stop.
But I don't know.
I don't know.
Sure.
Okay.
Fine.
You're honest and you're half transparent.
But what people expect from you when
you don't know is what will you do
to know and when will you do it?
Érica: Exactly.
Don't push it.
The patient.
Bertrand: Yeah, because transparency
is not something you can do half.
I know a lot of company who put
transparency as one of their
value, and then when they start
to put it in the values, they
are everything but transparent.
Bernardo: Is this look good?
Bertrand: It's exactly just to look
good, and they act artificially as
transparent, like the, I don't know.
I don't know is not everything.
You don't know, but why don't you know?
What will you do tomorrow to know?
What did you try?
And maybe you failed.
You have to share the whole package.
If you don't, people will imagine things.
And then you create gossips.
Then you create your
foster toxic behaviors.
Because everything you don't
share, people will imagine it.
Érica: Of course.
Bertrand: And if they imagine
it, 99 percent of the time,
it's not in the best way.
Érica: No, but that's the point if even
the leader or the boss or whatever, the
people who's trying to push the project
in front, they don't know and they don't
do anything to know if you have that
position, for sure, you have ways to talk
to other people to know there's something.
Bertrand: You have this
example of transparency also
for leading remote teams.
Usually when you try to reach
to someone who is working remote
and you don't manage to do that.
Naturally, what do you think?
This person doesn't work.
Or this person is doing something.
Ends up with this person is lazy.
And you reach to someone else and you
say, Oh, I tried to reach him all the
day and this person didn't answer.
Érica: Yeah,
Bertrand: but why it's both side?
Of course, it created toxic behavior.
The person we're sharing this
gossip has a toxic behavior,
but there is a fix as well.
The person who is not available could
have notified the other ones that
Bernardo: he was unavailable.
Bertrand: They won't be
available for the day.
And it's fine because
if you know, finally,
Érica: yeah,
Bertrand: you don't
create the toxic behavior.
So this kind of transparency,
And not leaving room for a lot of
supposition is a great antidote
to a lot of toxic behaviors.
You can fix a lot doing
that, sharing information.
And you can also share, for example,
in the case of remote employee.
Sorry, I will not be available because
my kid is sick or because I have
something important to do or because I
have an administration task to complete.
I will do my work at this
time or later on and I'm done.
Érica: Yes.
Bertrand: No toxic behavior, but if
you don't do that and you are just
unavailable, for sure the other side
will think, and usually not the best way,
that you are just escaping your work.
Érica: Yeah, you don't
want to answer, yeah.
He has ways to fix the the gossip, not
a hundred percent of course because
will always exist that you can avoid.
Bernardo: Gossip is just communication,
if, even if you try to stop it,
people will start talking and
then gossip will happen naturally.
So there's, there are ways to go
around it to benefit from that,
but there's no way to stop it.
100%.
Bertrand: Yeah.
But for example, one source of bad
words or gossips or people mobbing
managers, it's a way to escape.
It's a place to say something.
Because they didn't have the right
place or they didn't feel they had
the place to express themselves.
So maybe trying to promote a culture
which is more open to feedback.
Where it's explicit that you can share
your opinion even if you disagree.
Even if it's with a
colleague or with a manager.
Being really open to feedback and from
the manager point of view, when there
are unanswered questions, instead
of leaving the unanswered question
unanswered, as you said before, trying
to do everything to find answers to this
question, even if you don't have it,
so find the person who has the answer.
You remove a lot of gossips because you
remove a lot of uncertainty, a lot of
fears, and you create more confidence.
Érica: Is that?
Yeah.
So start doing something.
Bertrand: Yeah.
Bernardo: And stop talking.
Bertrand: This as well.
It's a great source of gossips.
Instead of showing facts and sharing
facts, people, let's say, they talk
the talk instead of working the talk.
They just say, we will, we
plan, we want, we wish, we aim.
Bernardo: But never we do.
Bertrand: And never we did.
sharing fact, even if they are
tiny, it's better to share a
small fact than a huge intention.
Sure, intentions are important
to share vision, to engage
people, to inspire people.
But what people want every day
is to see things moving forward,
to see the question answered.
And to see fact shared, if you say,
for example, we will do a program to,
we will create a program to upskill
all the people in the company to new
technology because emerging technology.
And you say that, and you say that
again and again, and people don't see
that training arrive available for
them, they can attend it tomorrow.
There will be a time where people
will stop believing it and create
gossips and mob the managers.
reorganization in companies.
Why do employees think, Oh, again, once
again, a reorganization in the company.
Why?
Because usually this reorganization
don't come with facts.
They come with people talking, they
come with fancy slides or boring
slides, but they don't come with
fact and particularly not fact
that improve employees daily life.
So finally, this kind of behavior,
they lead to other toxic behavior
because they are toxic themselves.
But doing things instead
of talking about things
Bernardo: can be a way to fix this.
I agree with what you said.
Of course, intention is a very
powerful tool to inspire others and
motivate, but what inspires even more?
is doing it.
Okay, you're inspired by their intention,
but if you act on that intention, you
will inspire even more the others.
It's like this famous saying,
hell is full with good intentions.
Bertrand: So finally, what
do we have with this episode?
Because toxic behaviors, there are plenty.
Toxicity has multiple faces.
It's something quite complex.
And particularly because one toxic
behavior triggers the other one, and
then you have a cascade of toxicity,
which can be really hard to stop.
A takeaway maybe, how can we keep
company away from toxicity, or how
can we help company prevent toxicity?
Bernardo: I believe that you have to
deal with toxic behaviors like you
deal with, if you deal with it, the
way you deal with poisonous snakes.
before you deal directly with them.
With snakes, have the
right antidote first.
Prepare yourself to have the right
tools to prevent it and to treat
it before just tackling right on.
Bertrand: Okay, in my opinion,
I would escape the snakes and
run away, but well, if I cannot,
I will take the antidote first.
If I'm ready to enter the snake pit,
maybe I will go with the antidote.
So be prepared.
Bernardo: Exactly.
Érica: like you said, toxic behavior is
like a cascade, good behaviors as well.
So you have a lot of ways,
like the communication, like
we talked, transparency, a
safe space, and feedback loops.
You can always create good
behaviors instead of the toxic ones.
Maybe don't focus, like you
said, too much on the toxic ones.
Focus on building the good ones.
Bertrand: Yeah, maybe the last one
to complete that is what you said,
Bernardo, in one previous episode.
Treat the others as you want
the others to treat you.
If you wouldn't like to be left in
uncertainty, don't create uncertainty.
If you wouldn't like to stay
with an answered question,
don't leave question unanswered.
think about what you would like
as a positive behavior and try
to adopt it and promote it.
So I think the audience
has a lot of antidote.
Bernardo: Yes, let's hope
they use them wisely.
Don't handle snakes head on first.
Listen to this podcast very
attentively and then try it.
Bertrand: And don't forget
that it's not the last episode.
No antidote next time.
No steak pit.
Bernardo: Next one we'll have
the karaoke featuring Érica.
Érica: No.
Bertrand: Perfect.
Érica: No, no.
Bernardo: Well, we hope you guys
enjoyed and see you next episode.
Érica: See ya.
Bertrand: Bye.
Still with us.
We hope you enjoyed the episode
and learned something valuable.
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It was Tinkering the Future of Work and
Life with Érica Bernardo and Bertrand
Bernardo: you next week
for new amazing stories.