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The Sword&Spade podcast is about...
speaker-0 (00:00.056)
Fatherhood starts at conception. And and the way that I like to say it is you always want to provide a safe home for your child. And for the first nine months of their life, that house is your partner. So take care of that house. We love to talk about how fathers are supposed to be protectors and providers. I think it's not it's not feminine to also be nurturing and teaching in those early years.
it's not once they're ready to play ball, that's my job. I don't know. We we see all we have all the data I guess to show that the earlier dads get involved the better.
speaker-1 (00:45.964)
All right, friends and brothers, listeners, subscribers, welcome back to Sword and Spade Podcast, to the podcast born out of the best magazine you can get. It really is. Sort and you need to get off the screens and and and even even get off a substack and get in there and read something on paper. Luckily today our guest better than me having covers of magazines in the back. He's got a stack of books. very excited about
what he has to share 'cause it's something
That I think a lot of our listeners will I think in a sense somewhat feel the pain, feel the ache of men's involvements, not only in their own homes, but also in the pro life movement. and so Alexang Alexander Hedinger leads the fatherhood and family team at CareNet, which is a a pro life. Well, I'll let him tell more about that, but these are pregnancy centers. My understanding is there's over thirteen hundred of them, around the country. but Alex serves
Directly the let's see, what's it called? The it is the fatherhood and family, I don't know, division. Ministry, within Care Net, which is really interesting to me that this this very large pro life pregnancy center network has something particular to fathers. So maybe I wanna I wanna ask about how what that I mean, obviously that is something you know, a lot of us men need to know because I think
Yeah, I know there's a lot of men involved with the pro life movement, but when I think about it, when I think of how often somebody is organizing, somebody is doing something, I do think of like old ladies really rallying and and pulling things together. I don't think about it as a father led movement, which perhaps is is maybe a problem we should address. But before I ask that, tell me how did you how did you find your way into into CareNet and
speaker-1 (02:41.91)
Yeah, how did you land there? And and tell us a little bit about Carnet, 'cause I honestly I'm like, they're huge. I've never heard of it. So forgive me for that, but I'm glad to have the introduction now.
speaker-0 (02:51.814)
For sure. Yeah. Well so I grew up in a big musical family with the second oldest of eight children and I went and studied music as for my at Carnegie Mellon here in Pittsburgh. so violin was my instrument. while I was kind of trying to set up my career and take auditions and play a bunch of gigs in that. That's also when I became got married, became a father and really fell in love with with fatherhood.
maybe for the first time, something more than more than music. And this opportunity opened up at my local pregnancy center to serve fathers there, other new fathers, new and expectant fathers. So that was kind of how I got my start in this work. worked there for about a year and a half, just designing services for dads. What would it look like to welcome the father of the baby?
For every woman that we're offering a pregnancy test and an ultrasound to welcome him to the appointment and give him some confidential coaching on what he's feeling during this typically very stressful time. And I felt like most of those guys had never been listened to in their lives. And you s you can see them as the problem or this dark character in the background, but they're really just somebody's little boy who needs guidance, just like she does as she's maybe seeking an abortion. So
I got to serve those guys, that was wonderful. And then the women's choice network where I worked, that was one of thirteen hundred pregnancy centers in a in the CareNet network. And there was a job that opened up for CareNet. So got to go there and take what I had learned on the local level and try to expand that on the national level. That was back in twenty twenty one when we were serving about across the network that serves about three hundred thousand women a year. There were they were serving about
twenty one thousand men. So wow. Pretty pretty rare for those guys to be coming in. We are growing that every year since we are offering the guys the same type of services that are offered to her. We want to we're specialized in this for fifty years now of taking somebody who's concerned about their pregnancy and walking with them through compassion, hope, and help and and offering resources for them to get a strong start as parents. So yeah, we've this
speaker-0 (05:16.588)
Last year served about forty six thousand men and our centers have grown from it being pretty rare for there to be a fatherhood program with men staffing the center to about seventy percent of our centers now have services for men.
speaker-1 (05:32.982)
Wow. So what all right, going back to your sort of I don't know, you know, street credibility, so to speak, with with just doing it in your local was that something that they perceived, hey, there's men in here, we're not talking to them and we have an opportunity? Like what why did they you know, I know that there's the obvious all right, we want to help the women that are in crisis. What was what was the thing that happened that woke them up to well, hey, there there's men involved here too, mate and making babies?
speaker-0 (06:00.172)
Yeah. Well there was there was some research that came out that was really helpful. There was a research done in twenty fifteen where women were asked, you know, about a th a thousand women who had an abortion in their past were asked. This was a collaboration between Carinet Lifeway research. They were asked who who did you speak with about your decision to terminate your pregnancy? And the number one person that was consulted was the father of the baby. Wow. And then they asked, Well, who was most influential?
in your decision. And by far the greatest single influence in her decision was the father of the baby. And, you know, way below that was, you know, a medical professional or b or her mom or her friends or, you know, all these other things. And so we said, Wow, if if he's the number one person that she's consulting and if he ends up being the most influential, and he was most influential kind of no matter what he said. So
there was a kind of a large third that in that situation they were recommending. They were saying, Hey, yeah, you probably should get this abortion. And then there was a smaller third in the, you know, high twenties that was saying, please don't, like we can do this, but she still was unsure. And then there was this thirty one percent in the middle that ends up being a lot of the guys that we work with in the pregnancy center are guys who are saying they were asked, but they were give they gave no they gave no advice in return.
And that comes from this idea that this is this is her body, her choice. And so even though she's asking me what we should do about this unplanned pregnancy, I'm not supposed to say. Right. So that was a lot of the guys I would sit down with, they'd I would say I'd have to, you know, take time to get them to kind of open up about what they what they would do if they had a say. And many of them said, Yeah, I'd actually I actually just wanted to be a father. I just know I'm not supposed to say anything in this circumstance. So
It's really a breakdown of communication that when you say, you can tell her that. In many cases, that's the reason why she's on the fence is because she can't read you on where you're at. So sometimes he just goes in the other room, they start the ultrasound, he takes her hand and says, We can do this. Game over, you know? So
speaker-1 (08:17.838)
Wow, that's fascinating. I c I I mean that's the you know the big delusion or lie, however you want to look about it at it, of of the pro choice position or the pro abortion position is that it it the autonomy of the of the woman is supreme and absolute when the reality is you you're now intertwined with three bodies, not just one, you know, the the woman, the baby, and the father, and that they were
It's just fascinating that we have a we we have achieved as a society the ability for a father to think he's not able he's not allowed to speak about his own his own child. That's just that's really interesting. So you said a third of them were is it roughly a third doesn't want you know, just please get an abortion. the and then a third is I would like to have don't please don't have an abortion, and then roughly a third is I'm I'm not allowed to say anything.
What are the what are like the do you you do you sort of counsel and have different tracks for them? Like how like how do you now how do you then as because you're not just giving them information or political positions, you're actually giving them counsel and mentorship and help. So how did you do that? Cause I think a lot of us I I've been in friendships and relationships with young men where they, you know, I I know they have been in these these positions. And so what what's your advice?
For for each one of those groups for a man who might, you know, be encountering a young man finding himself there.
speaker-0 (09:49.048)
Yeah, it's good question. Yeah, so it's it's a large third, it's like cl you know, closer to forty percent who had who had recommended an abortion and and you do see some of those guys in your in your life, in your friendships, and in you know, certainly in your center work. At that point, it's very much hearing all of their concerns, the same things that are that often his partner is sharing in the next room. Like number one, he's gonna say, We don't have enough money. number two, he's gonna say, I'm not ready to be a father.
sometimes he's gonna say there are already too many kids in the picture. and there are these kind of and then a couple really high reasons up there too in our in our data is the there's conflict in the relationship. I don't see this relationship as being long term. So that's where you really need to to know your stuff and be will ready to encourage them that there are positive ways forward in all of those ways. to be able to say,
You know, you think about how he's kind of Googling like how what does it cost to raise a kid. Yeah. And he doesn't realize that they start small and that hey, as you get started, our ministry has resources for you. You know, we've got we've got a program we can sign you up for that will help you learn how to be a dad. And you don't feel ready, but really none of us do at the start. And if you're getting involved now, you you can make an amazing difference. So let's get started now. As you take that course, we actually have
a hundred dollar gift card for you when you complete that course on being a good dad. So that's gonna help you purchase some of the the needs coming up for your child. Some some centers will offer a car seat or other cool items as an incentive as well. So you start to kind of, you know, meet those needs and and start to help teach him how he can he has more going for him than he thinks. And then the relationship is a huge thing too to help him realize we can we can make some progress there.
start working on some, you know, we have courses and stuff like this on how to communicate well with your partner. I remember having one of my very first clients just he laid it all out on how they have absolutely nothing going for them and absolutely nothing to help to offer their child. And it was, I mean, we're homeless. I just lost my job because I fight so much this with this girl. We can't sleep. we have nobody in our lives to support us.
speaker-0 (12:14.732)
She's on drugs. Like it was it was everything you could imagine. And in that moment I just said
What would it look like to just start taking one positive step at a time? Cause what we know from from our research and from all of our work with clients is that when you make that decision, it it feels like feels like the thing that's in your way right now is this child. But what if what if this child is an opportunity to finally rise up rather than making a decision that we know impacts fathers and mothers very deeply for decades, for typically for the rest of their lives?
So instead of putting one more weight on your shoulders of this of of making this decision to terminate this pregnancy, what if what if you use this child as an opportunity and and and what if this child was actually, you know, sent as an opportunity? And he goes, I know it was. He said, I wow. He said, I think this I actually think that this child was sent to save my partner's life. 'Cause she's not supposed to be able to to get pregnant and and the way she's living right now.
She's not going to be here for very long. And so sure enough, we work just one week at a time with them by the end of of the pregnancy. It was like maybe a week before the due date, he says, we have a home. Like he'd work that long to get back into an apartment. And she was had been off drugs for that the whole pregnancy. And and the relationship had drastically improved. So we just we offer hope for them. We know that kind of God's model works. and when we follow his ways, even in the
darkest circumstances it's going to lead towards something good. So sorry that was kind of a long answer to to the first one. No.
speaker-1 (13:56.214)
Well actually c let's stay on the first one here just for a minute because I you said it at the beginning, you said a lot of us think of I mean I'm thinking of judgment that I would that I would have quite easily is just think of these, you know, these jerks, they're just selfish. they just wanted to have sex without consequence or they're in this relationship that they don't want to take ownership of. I like I I feel an anger towards the the f the forty the forty percent because
They're the ones, you know, they're not manning up. They're they're turning in on themselves when they could be giving themselves. They're there's sort of like an embodiment and and then their willingness to kill their child. There's sort of an embodiment of like the worst of men. but the way you're describing it is just that but there is a story. I mean, there's there's always this story, there's there's there's a bigger narrative. And I'm just that that story is that you just told is a beautiful one that I think for us, you know, especially like fraternist men that are that are mentoring guys is
Sometimes getting someone, I don't know. Like I have to get past my quick judgment, which is true. I mean, this is ultimately this is sin, this is selfishness, this is but a lot of times asking that it seems like asking that question, getting the story, getting the concerns gives you an opportunity to make the turn. So anyway, thank you for that. But d do you see sorry, go ahead.
speaker-0 (15:15.342)
I was gonna say, and it might lead to some redemption too. Like Hebrews says he can deal gently with the ignorant and wayward. And and that's not just those who are kind of have only messed up to a certain degree, or you know, in almost every case we see, right, there's a guy and there's a girl involved, and neither of them are are kind of wallflowers, right? And so we've had this idea for so long.
That it's just these bad guys that these girls got mixed mixed up with. But if we can get him out of the way, we can help this sweet precious girl turn her life around. It's like they both got some sin and they both got some guilt. And guess what? That's okay. Because this we serve a savior who came to die for sin. So we can he can deal gently with them. We can offer gentle encouragement. There's the very occasional guy that that really pushes your heart and you're kind of like, I'm struggling.
with this with this character here. And and it takes some trust in the Lord to to work on his heart. But in most cases, yeah, these guys just need a chance to to open up and chance to move forward.
speaker-1 (16:20.088)
So then you guys really this is fascinating because I yeah, I don't think I've heard it articulated you know as this much in the in the pro life world though. So you but you actually see he he's yeah, I guess you're seeing the wholeness of the woman within the relationship with this man, and you see the relationship and the counseling and the mentoring of him, his redemption, so to speak, in this situation, as not a nice
It this isn't a spin-off of pro life work. You're this is a an essential element of it is what it sounds like. Is that been a is that now like has that been adopted? Is that the pr is that why you now have lead this office for the for the nationals? This it's so like I said, so I guess that's the way the way I describe it. I I would think I have heard people say, we can start working with these young men too. Like a again, like a spin off. But
How central is it? Like how do you guys view it internally now when you're dealing with when when you're talking about, you know, pro life ministry?
speaker-0 (17:18.594)
Yeah, that's that's a great question. So we at at CareNet, our our particular network, this is this is central. We we believe that we're where we are, not just because of a breakdown in in society's view on the sanctity of human life. It's it's a breakdown in our view on the sanctity of marriage and family. And because there were abortion clinics out there offering this one option to women, pregnancy centers were created to offer this other option to women. But along the way, we re we
miss the fact that there has always been a man and a woman involved in this and the breakdown in their relationship and in their following of of of God's plan for marriage, you know, before children, that's why we are where we are. So it's kind of time for the church to and and for for pro life ministry to address the breakdowns that really have led to to where we are. Because we can, without the father involved, we can help her choose life for her unborn baby. We can give her some amazing support as single moms.
I don't know if you've ever toured a pregnancy center and seen the amazing rooms full of diapers and wipes and outfits. And it's like, no matter what's going on, it's okay. We've got everything you need. It's like we have some amazing support, but that's not all she needs for the next 18 years of raising her child. In fact, we have a lot of repeat clients. She comes back 18 months later with another pregnancy from a different guy.
Some case sometimes there are cases in your in your database with four four, you know. She's got four babies with four different baby daddies for lack of a better term, and multiple abortions along the way too. It's like at some point, if we're gonna fix the problem, we need to help form a family out of this. So I will say that there is a lot of resistance to that in in the pro life movement.
speaker-1 (19:09.08)
What's that look like? What kind of resistance?
speaker-0 (19:13.994)
some folks would say that serving the father is is mission drift. That it's that we don't have the time or resources to do that. Like pro-life the pro-life world always feels so like we're so stretched thin. We have these like lifelong pro-life warriors who like we're already doing everything we can for women. Now you want us to serve men too. But the beautiful thing that happens when you start serving men is you get men involved to serve them. And now you bring pastors on tours of your pregnancy center and they say,
my goodness, you're serving moms and dads and families, and now those families need to be discipled in the local church. How can we partner? It's not just this little specialized ministry like you mentioned of of old ladies handing out diapers, which is which has always been a mischaracterization. There have always been, you know, very excellent medical services offered along the way too. But yeah, it has become central. At CareNet we call ourselves pro abundant life. And that that was a big a big
mind shift in this ministry that we continue to just talk about all the time. Jesus came, well, the the enemy comes to steal, kill, and destroy, right? Which is a pretty good description of of abortion and all that it robs from from children and mothers and fathers. But he came, Christ came that we would have life, not just life, but life in abundance. So we we identify and our our our CEO Rowan Warren lays this out really well.
We've identified that abundant life involves thriving in in family life. Like there's this pillar of family that's there for abundant life. Cause we know all the you've probably talked on this podcast before about all the stats about how well children do without their father in the home. Right. And then and then there's there's eternal life. So the gospel is essential to our work as well. And so the pillars of family and the gospel and discipleship, that's that's what we call being pro.
abundant life and and some like I said, some folks don't feel like they have time to do that. We just gotta save the baby and that's that's all we can handle. But the pro abundant life thing just goes at it from so many different directions. Like
speaker-1 (21:24.75)
Well I guess you're actually what the you're getting there's the symptom of a pr of a pregnancy that is desired to be to to be terminated, right? There's the desire for the abortion and the it's the the that desire is a symptom of something that's you know a a more rooted problem. So I would just yeah, to your to your detractors and critics and all of those with pitchforks. Now I know it's that's not who they are. They're loving people, but you're actually getting to the heart of the problem because if this is something there there's
There's like nothing I can look into and study about sort of societal ills and problems and collapses and and catastrophes that if you don't look at the role of the father, how central it is. I mean it's almost overwhelming as a man and a father to look at.
what what kind of central role you play in so many ways. So I think to ignore what what what you're just saying there that about the the repeat the women in repeat crisis the crisis is is in the relationships, right? It's not just in the symptom, so to speak, of of another child. Not that a child is just a symptom, but it's a symptom of a of another problem that to find themselves in this position again. So I think it's well said I think it's beautiful
what you do. I think I'm I'm sort of convicted and thinking, wow, I don't I don't I even th I even still think of men's work with in the pro life world as something like, yeah, we'll show up and hold the signs when there's a a sign to hold, to actually think of being because I I know that for those young men that are coming into these centers, I mean you haven't even said this, but I know that they have to be approached
And counseled eventually by a man who was ahead of them, a man who could be a mentor, who could be like a father to them. So yeah this
speaker-0 (23:12.876)
And if I could if I could speak to that for a minute, just the beauty of that work. There's so many amazing like men of God out there right now who feel frustrated at the societal ills they see. They they've done their best to raise their family, which is sometimes that's the best thing you can do, right? And now it just feels like you see your country, you know, struggling in different ways. You you read stats about abortion or whatever other societal ills and you're you you're frustrated.
There's there's a place for you to plug in everything that God's taught you and walk alongside other men and make a difference. And and we I've seen men come from I mean, it there's a really actually an amazing brotherhood of guys who are serving in this ministry. you know, at this point we're at a at a definitely a at a couple hundred staff men working in centers in paid positions. And then another, you know, close to I don't know.
Probably close to a couple thousand male volunteers. So there so you'll you'll be maybe a staff member at the center in charge of leading these services for men. And then you bring on this team of volunteer mentors from local churches. And these guys are are offering their time often in their retirement after having amazing careers. And we have literal rocket scientists. We have a lot of military guys gravitate towards this. one of my one of my favorite leaders, Wayne, he's he was a a Navy captain.
And he has that Navy captain way of just taking young men under his wing. And he's so gentle. Like there's there's sort of honestly, there are a couple sides to this ministry. One is just mentoring new dads. So they've already decided they want to choose life for their baby, they want to get a good start. Now you start teaching them diapering and swaddling and how to how to support their partner to have a healthy pregnancy. So like that becomes really fun.
The hard stuff is sitting with guys day after day and hearing their life stories and helping them try to find a positive way. Wayne, he loves that stuff. That is where he wants to spend all his time just just gently hearing those guys out and offering them a way forward. So yeah, it's it's an amazing ministry that that is really, really growing. And if you feel that tug on your heart like you can't make a difference, just check out your local pregnancy center. In all likelihood, they are looking for more men to help with this.
speaker-1 (25:35.128)
So is that would would you 'cause there's no there's different approaches, especially these days, 'cause the internet and inf and influencers and and various sensational influencers. I'm say there's a lot of movie, you know, the kind of a a man up bravado, which I I have a lot of appreciation. I understand the need to that that works really well for men. There's a reason that men have, you know, boot camps in many various forms from, you know, football to military to
There's a good reason. It kills our ego. It disciplines our body. it gets us out of our our selfishness, gets about our head, and it orients us. but then just this is just my own observation. I have no data or anything on this. It seems as if that's this this certain art and skill that I encountered when I was fifteen and doing and completely far away from God, doing everything that's cle you all you the devil's not creative.
He can't create. He's not God. So he's just has these same old cliche sins that I was falling into. I was ensnared. I was, you know, all this stuff. And it was the gentleness of a man that led me to the gospel. there's so I don't know that that's a there's a different art. And I have a guy in my life who's maybe a lot like your Wayne. I'd his his name is Rick, you know, he's like this special forces guy, big and he's just he with his own son, with the with with my sons, with the young men around him and fraternists, he's just it's like this guy could kill me.
And he's just hit but gentle n gentleness would be, I think, his greatest strength. So is that yeah, what is that like a main characteristic of is that what works the best with these guys? Or do you do you have some guys that are just like grab him, grab him by the shirt and and and put them against the wall and tell them to get their act together? Or is it what like yeah, is that where most of the success is? Do you have the other type? Do you have the you know, the drill sergeant, or is it mostly what I don't want to say the
Christ like gentleness. But yeah, Christ like gentleness. Yeah, what's working well?
speaker-0 (27:31.532)
Yeah. Yeah, that's a good that's a good question. Yeah, I would say that the the gentleness is working well. There is with that, there's a little bit of directness that can help. And and there are ways to do it well. Like I used to ask guys, can I challenge you on something? Mm-hmm. You know, and they go, Yep. You know. So you you've just kind of validated their their manhood in a way and and and hey, can I challenge you? And then you challenge them and they receive it.
Like we keep finding the higher we set the bar for these guys, they'll always get over it. So I I d I guess I don't advocate for being so gentle that you just I'm so sorry that's so hard. You know. At some point you can say you're you're being loving to them by offering them a something that's challenging their perspective of where they're at. But if you do it I don't know, my my main verse for this is from First Timothy, where where a young, you know, Pastor Timothy is is told
Don't don't rebuke an older man, but admonish him as you would a father. younger men as brothers, older women as mothers, younger women as sisters in all purity. And that's where when you s view people in this kind of family type of thing and and you do it in a loving way, it does work. We have some guys who you know, there's a guy down in Florida, he was a Navy special ops diver, and he is just a go-getter. I mean, he he has
70 male volunteers to staff all six locations of their center. He is a volunteer 20 hours a week and they serve about a thousand dads a year at just one, you know, one organization. And and he'll he's definitely not afraid to challenge the guys. and we we learn from each other's approaches where he's gonna just say, man, sit down, let's talk, you know. And that's okay, that's o okay to do. we do like permission based care.
in in pregnancy center ministry. We don't wanna boss people around. We wanna make sure that they're they're open to this. But we have found this is, you know, getting kind of technical, but oftentimes the guy's in the lobby and in order to bring him back, we need him to fill out some paperwork and we need to enroll him in our system. Sometimes it it can be done in such a gentle way that it's like, Hey, would you mind filling this out? And he goes, no, I'm good. Because he doesn't know why. Right.
speaker-0 (29:58.198)
And they say, Hey, do you want to come back for a counseling session? He's like, no, I'm just here for her. Right. But if they enter in the door and you say, Hey, I'm so glad you're here, fill out this paperwork and we'll be we'll be right out to get you. Okay. It just like that's what happens at any doctor's office you go to. So now, you know, she's brought back for her appointment. You go out and greet him and you say, All right, hey, I'm Alex, I'm I'm the meds coach here and you got that filled out. Thanks so much. All right, come on back with me.
speaker-1 (30:26.572)
Wow. It sounds like he's the shi the shift is what I'm hearing, the shift and this is when you're trying to mentor a young man, this is you know, when you're trying to get him outside of this childishness. the I think the way is the way you said there was abortion clinics and then there was sort of the pro life mirroring of them in in these pro life clinics. But in both places, the man was sort of viewed as a support a supporting a supporting role. He is there to
essentially affirm whatever decision is made by the woman, but you're what you're doing in that instance is making him a responsible agent in the matter. You're you're engaging his will as someone who is has ha you're just presuming upon his responsibility instead of trying to convince him in that approach, which that's I mean that's the the man is not if i w if we understand man is father, he is certainly not there just for support. I mean that is not the primary vision
of of fatherhood at all. You get support. You get support from all kinds of people. All people. You know, St. Paul says in Ephesians, you know, that that you know, women submit to your husbands. That word submit is actually the word he uses to describe how we submit to each other in all sorts of ways as Christians, right? We're all sorts of supportive but actual the the fatherhood and headship what it fundamentally is is is to carry a responsibility. So you're just presuming they're already carrying it. That's like we're just gonna step in and
Help you carry it better.
speaker-0 (31:56.474)
Right. Yeah, there's there's a guy in California, Ernie, who he his approach is very much to approach the guys and say, Hey, you might just think you're the Uber driver today, but you're not. Come on back with me. And he did I've heard testimonies from his clients where they'll say, I thought I had nothing going for me. This would be like a fifteen year old client, the one I'm thinking of. He goes, I thought I had nothing going for me. Ernie showed me I had it in me all along. And that and that I think is
This this like man up, we gotta teach these guys everything because they're clueless thing is is not my my way of going about it. I think a as if mom in the other room just kind of comes by all of this naturally. I think we can call things out of guys. You know, the way like Ernie would teach them to swaddle is he teaches it like a baseball diamond, you know? And then he taught teaches how to hold the child well like holding a football. He's like, You didn't even realize in little league you were building fatherhood skills.
And and you put that, you know, baby in his arms and teach him to hold it and he's just like, yeah, I got it. So
speaker-1 (33:03.384)
That's be that's so awesome. so I all right, maybe we need to go back. I'm sorry, I we we totally went sideways here. The but that's the the first group, the forty percent group, that's the ones yeah, you know, that that you're obviously spending a lot of time comparing notes, technique, personalities, approaches, because that's the most important. I mean that you know, those ones that it might be saying let's let's let's get rid of this problem.
That you said the other ones though were the don't don't do this. So how does how does that play out? 'Cause like why would the women even be it seems like you would be really supporting him in a way that I know like the pro abortion crowd would think, see now they're they're allying with the man to to force this force a birth. but how I I I could just hear their rhetoric now. But
what does it actually look like in that case if you if if the woman and the man and the the mother and the father are sitting there and you're sort of on the father's side, like how does that play out?
speaker-0 (34:10.464)
Yeah, that well, I think a a big reason why she would still be considering abortion when he's saying, Hey, he's he's recommending that they do carry to term she's probably heard that before. he's saying, I I'll I'll be there for you, but we can do this. And she's like, Yeah, that's what the last four guys said. Right. And then I never see him again. and he's saying he doesn't realize it, even though he's trying to say it the best he can, when he says
I'll be there for you, or I'll support you, whatever you choose.
Either she doesn't trust it or she's hearing that that comes at such a later date, it doesn't really relate to where she's at right now. So the real the key thing there is to give him ways to start behaving like a father and for her to start seeing his behavior change and to feel his support immediately. So that's why the first session of our of our main course for dads, it's called Dr. Dad. And there's a session on how to support the pregnancy, and it teaches guys to make smoothies for their partner while they're pregnant. And
Those smoothies have literally saved lives because she's saying, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna get this abortion. He's saying whatever he's saying, she's saying, I I can't trust whatever he says. I'm on my own. A lot of women are at a point already where they're like, I'm if I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna bet I'm on my own. But now he starts bringing her a glass of water and bringing her, hey, did you remember to take your prenatal vitamin? And he's bringing her a smoothie that he made in the kitchen. So we have a three recipe smoothie that the guys learned to make. And in our
In the course they take, they actually have to take a picture of what they made and upload it. So to get credit to move on in the course, you have to show that you did this. So thousands of women are getting smoothies handed to them around the country d during unplanned pregnancies and they're saying, We we've talked with them. We've we've talked with a client where she was totally on the fence and then follow up and she says, yeah, he started bringing me smoothies, so I realized I could do this. So that's part of
speaker-1 (36:14.254)
Receiving actual care. She's actually not not an empty promise. This is this is how I'm going to take care of you becomes manifest, tangible, visible, incarnated, I guess. Yeah. Wow, that's so
speaker-0 (36:26.446)
And she starts seeing him practice his swaddling in the background. Like like those are skills he has to do too. Some guys swaddle a football, some swaddle their dog, like whatever, but they have to upload that picture. So she's needs to focus on having a healthy pregnancy, but in the background, she sees her guy swaddling his teddy bear, you know, like and she's like, This is the type of guy I could have a baby with. Yeah, so yeah, it's it's just giving them a way to to to kind of prove what they're what they're saying there. And then yeah, and then there's the middle group of guys.
that really just it's a communication breakdown. they're not giving any advice because they don't think they're allowed to. And when you challenge them to say, actually usually what that looks like is she asks and he says, I'll support whatever you choose. And that's what he's been told is the proper response. so letting him know that it's okay to talk it out, to share what he's feeling, we just encourage a lot of communication between them and
It's okay to share your fears. It's okay to talk it out. But if all you're saying is I'll support whatever you choose, you know, I think of it like if I'm trying to buy a new car, I'm probably gonna call my dad and ask his advice. And if he said, Well, you know what, I'll support whatever you choose, I'm like, that's not really helpful. I'm I I'd actually like your I'd actually like your opinion. Right. And
And much more so if I'm asking my wife who's actually gonna share that car with me and and take care of it with me, right? So when I sometimes you just share that type of analogy with the guys and they go, you're right. I'm saying I'll support whatever you choose. She's hearing you're on your own. Mm-hmm. So when we break that down and he goes in and says, Hey, I don't want you to have to go through this. 'cause we do talk about about what those options will look like. We have, you know, very well medically sourced
information on all of of what the different options would look like parenting, adoption, and abortion. And when they get a clear look at what those options would look like, he goes he I mean first of all he learns that his where his child is in development. So he realized this isn't just between him and her, but there's a child involved and he can see where they're at, right? And then he learns what abortion really looks like for her.
speaker-0 (38:44.524)
And he realized that's not just something, I'll just support whatever you choose and then you're on your own. Like would you really hold her hand through that? You know? so those can be some pretty hard conversations, but pretty powerful too.
speaker-1 (38:57.452)
Yeah, what's the so it for the men when they're in the clinic, you know, I you mentioned, you know, if you if a pro life clinic, you there's the room full of stuff, right? For the like the diapers. Like I have what I need to take care of the physical needs of this baby. And that's a huge relief where, you know, I think I and I've seen it. I've seen these these just wow, that's all the stuff. Look at me, I'm taken care of already. Is there like a map is there a door you open that
And s and this can be something intangible, but like what is the thing that when men see they go, I can do this?
speaker-0 (39:32.962)
Yeah, it's interesting because I think part of my pushback honestly on the room full of stuff is that which is super it is wonderful to see and millions of diapers are given out every year. There's you're not just trying to give him free diapers, you're trying to call him up into his role to provide those diapers. Mm-hmm. Like there's a reason why my wife doesn't need a room full of diapers.
and that's me. So we we've even had discussions with centers where they say, well, we would love to serve men, but we don't have enough space to meet with them because we we had to use our extra counseling room to fill it full of diapers. It's like, Well, would you rather you know, it's kind of the teach a man to fish type of thing. Like guys to provide those diapers, or would you just have to keep providing it yourself? So it's not always so much on the materials support for guys, honestly.
Well, we we like to do incentives of gift cards because they can use that to reward themselves for their own effort. They can use it to buy something for the baby. when we offer one thing that that will typically get guys excited is is the backpack. They they make like these kind of more masculine diaper bag backpacks. and we have some guys use different toolboxes. And as you go through your classes, you you you earn a thermometer and you maybe you do earn a power drill and you earn these things so that you can put up gay.
baby gates in your home. And so they they build this toolkit along the way and when they realize there's something that they can earn for for their effort, that that can definitely help them. But our courses also have a certificate and you'd be surprised how meaningful that is to some guys. They they might not have finished high school, might not have finished college and they get a certificate that shows that they put in this effort as a dad. Some guys just feel like a million bucks yeah when you give that to them. So
speaker-1 (41:23.35)
No, that's so I mean, what you're describing is is really you know, what what a father does when he's initiating his son. He gives him some competency, right? Which is the primary way that I you know, the in our modern technological society, the greatest loss is that we just don't do stuff. We don't have anything to make, do, build, construct, fix. And fathers oftentimes are at a loss, like, well, what do I do with my kid now? We just like the only thing we have is like consume something together.
But when I've seen this with my sons, when you teach them something and then you give them the tool that they can now use, that it's just a very fatherly thing you're doing with these guys is I'm gonna show you how to do it. I'm not gonna reward you with just some chocolate. I'm gonna reward you with actually more responsibility. Even I mean, even money is a form of responsibility. I'm gonna I'm gonna put this in your hands for your use. And I'm gonna put this tool that's a and the certificate is that's the accolade, that's the attaboy, that's the manifestation, that's you know.
We we fathers need to remember that when our sons, yeah. Our sons love certificates. It's not uncommon. Yeah.
speaker-0 (42:27.254)
There's one one center in in Colorado Springs where they they f did a whole mint of of challenge coins. So when their guys get through a certain amount of sessions, they earn points along the way that they can spend in the store to to get to get items for their child, but they also get that challenge coin and that's that's been kind of a cool new development where, you know and you actually get they actually give the challenge coin after five, ten no, I think it's ten, twenty, thirty and fifty appointments. They give that
to the client and they give that to the coach. So the coaches who've been serving there a while, they start collecting. These are the guys that I've taken through through through these courses. And and you see these guys just beam as they hold their child and you see their partner, you know, they came in with their eyes all down. Now you see the pictures of them together and she's just smiling, looking at him. He's holding the baby. It's just like who knew you could have so much fun in in pro life ministry?
speaker-1 (43:22.198)
Yeah, I didn't. I didn't know that. so I'd like to ask you I have one more question in this regard. I I need to ask you really quick. I know I know we're running you've you've given a lot of time generously, but I want to ask you about music. But before music, what is the
The lesson, I mean, it's easy even in this conversation for me to feel, you know, a superiority, right? I'm a fa I'm a stable father. I have kids that within marriage and and and you know, we're not we're not some of those people that need these kind of ministries. I'm glad they're out there for those people, but I'm but anytime I've ever worked with someone that's so equ you know, like if you go it's like in anyone who goes on like a mission trip, you realize, wow, I needed this more like
They're giving me something. I'm learning about myself. I'm not here as some savior. You know, I'm I'm in need to. what's the thing that I guess you know, a father like you or me needs to know that maybe we have forgotten, that that that maybe just comes out because of your experience in in pro life ministry. Like what is the thing that you're seeing lacking in fatherhood, the way it's lived, even in this quote unquote normal or stable setting?
speaker-0 (44:37.978)
Mm, let's see how good question. I I would say it's that that just specializing in this area of helping guys, they need to get a strong start right from the start, or they might just be gone too quickly. I've had guys say, if I didn't have those classes, I would have been back in jail before the child arrived. So we we've got them at the beginning and we need to have a strong start. But I think that applies to all of us. I think I've I've I would say that my wife has had increasingly better postpartum recovery.
Because of what I've learned through this ministry. And I've realized how important my presence is, even during the pregnancy. fatherhood starts at conception. And the way that I like to say it is you always want to provide a safe home for your child. And for the first nine months of their life, that house is your partner. So take care of that house. And I think in this, in this, we love to talk about how fathers are supposed to be protectors and providers.
I think it's not it's not feminine to also be nurturing and teaching in those early years. it's not once they're ready to play ball, that's my job. It's I don't know, we we see all we have all the data, I guess, to show that the earlier dads get involved, the better. And you know, we've had a a lot of a lot of
practitioners, so godly men who've raised a lot of children, they go through our doctor dad course so they can teach it. And they look back and they say, I didn't do a lot of this stuff. I didn't change a lot of diapers. And we have pre and post tests in that course and and the practitioners tend to grow. These are guys who are already leading fatherhood programs. They tend to grow in their pre and post test scores on their knowledge, skills, and plan engagement almo almost as much as the clients do.
So it's it's a time for us all to be humble and just say that we can do this together. And I and I I know that there's some hesitancy with that in in very traditional Christian circles, as if we're breaking down the barrier between dads and moms' roles if we focus so much on diapering and swaddling and things like that. And I I would like to say that I I see that example in the Bible of the way that our Heavenly Father cares for us. He says
speaker-0 (47:02.618)
You know how I carried you Israel, you know how I carried you through the wilderness like a father carries his child. And and and the apostle Paul says, you know how we were gentle with you, right? Like like a like a father. it says, as a father has compassion on his children, so the Lord has compassion on those who fear him. Our children are supposed to grow up and then learn about their heavenly father and say, Wow, God loves me the way my daddy does. Like he holds me.
And you know, this Heavenly Father who knows us so intimately that he's counted the every hair on our heads. I think I think we can kind of reclaim that. There there is a masculine way to be to be a father while also being incredibly involved right from the start. Does that make sense?
speaker-1 (47:51.614)
Absolutely. No, that's really challenging. You you tend to think and and there's truth in the role and necessity of a father, especially with boys, you know, training their sons up through adolescence. It's a it's a critical time. but I definitely have, you know, in in my own I have eight kids. So the the Congratulations. We thank you. we
You know, one of the things we sort of realize is that the way you talked about the the context of the whole family being, you know, for for the child, that the context around women today, pregnant women, is so poor. You know, many of them have very low support, like sort of and I mean like the kind of like make a smoothie support, not like good job, you go girl. many of them have, especially if they're if they have had a conversion later in life, they they don't have the support, the tangible
emotional, physical, actual sport of their of their own mothers. They're not and because we're cosmopolitan and suburban, we don't even have like around the home itself, there's not the neighbors that can come and drop and take care of this. And there there's not community, you know, and our communities take a lot of effort and usually you have to do things that are not good for pregnancies and babies, like go somewhere at seven o'clock in the evening to like have community. It's like this is not the state of life that a mother is in.
so one thing we sort of recognize is that, yeah, my role actually is maybe we could argue that I'm having to have some supplemental additional help by being support because we're not surrounded by a culture that values things. Like postpartum is a great example. I mean, in in former times, a Christian village would have completely understood that a woman should be in bed for a long time and that we will do everything. I don't know if you ever heard like even in
the older rites of baptism that existed in Christendom, the the godparents, one of the reason that the godparents were there is because they wouldn't even let the the mother get up for for for the baptism. The godparents would come and take the baby to be baptized because of course the mom wouldn't go and and you know walk walk the three blocks down to the church. so because we're not surrounded by that
speaker-1 (50:08.76)
we've learned that you know what I have to do some supplemental things. but I would argue that it is incumbent upon fathers to to another thing was experience is as that love expands, you can allow and bring, you know, my eldest daughter is, you know, her her joke is she's raised the last four kids and it's not that extensive. But we have mutual it it grows. You know, it's some something John Paul II said yeah in his letter to the families is that
One of the reasons we can't have sort of supportive supportive pro-life familial culture is there's just not enough people. There's not enough families within there's not enough people within the family, and there's not enough families with other families. And so I think what you're describing of that fathers recognizing that if they're just alone in their household, they're actually this isn't about being a second mom or more ner it's I think it's this is a necessary part until we tend and cultivate the, you know, the the culture of
That's supporting the mother and stop saying stupid things like, you know, Well, women used to have babies in the fields and get right back to work and crap like that. as a my wife's midwife says, Yes, women did that and then they died. So well that's
speaker-0 (51:23.118)
True. Hey, if I could share one more one more thing before we move to music, just I think your listeners would just appreciate the kind of this framing of this whole issue. Is that God God kinda gave us his model for dealing with unplanned pregnancy.
speaker-1 (51:37.58)
Yeah, that's right.
speaker-0 (51:40.342)
And and unplanned, of course, from a right, kind of unplanned from a from an earthly perspective, of course. But you know, the angel said to her, Don't be afraid, for you found favor with God. Behold, you'll conceive and bear a son, you shall call his name Jesus. But then an angel appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. And then in Luke it tells us the result the child grew and became strong. He was filled with wisdom and the grace of God.
was on him. God didn't have to make the holy family holy family. He could've showed that a single mom could raise the Christ child, but I think there's something very important about the example that he set for us there. So
speaker-1 (52:22.154)
That's beautiful. Thank you for that. okay. It I I'm just gonna ask this the in the context of fatherhood too. I don't want to shift too long or too far afield on this cause you've given us a lot of time. This is my this would be my parting question though, or or to ask you on a personal level, because you've very much spoken on behalf of CareNet, your own experience, the the data. I love how much you've you've analyzed and thought through this stuff. This is really it's like both very human.
and very structured at the same time. So I th I would not to sound but man, it's a very manly way to go about pro-life work. I appreciate it. I had one one of the issues we had in Sword and Spade magazine, I don't know if it's behind me, was Folkways. And I there was a guy who wrote an article about his grandfather playing music with the family on the porch.
And all I can say is that article changed my life because we were kind of dabbling in music. and now, you know, some years later, my family is just we are a a all out bluegrass band. sorry. wonderful. Not me, not me. so you're a violinist, but we just have fiddles. and which if any listeners don't know, it's it's the same thing. People ask a lot. But
speaker-0 (53:42.904)
Well, you know, the only difference the only difference is that the the fiddle has that red neck on it. Mm-hmm
speaker-1 (53:49.454)
Did you catch that guys? Do you catch that? Funny. yeah, my my daughter, we were at the fleet market the other day and there was a violin up there and said, can could I see your fiddle? And the lady snapped at her with such contempt. it's a violin, sweetie. yeah, but but for us, the music in our family has been transformative because when we talk about what do we do to have, you know, a a godly culture in your home and your family,
It's well, what do you want me to do? And I can't believe how much music has has what it's done for our family. So yeah, give and and party, yeah. Tell me a little bit about you you were mentioning you you somehow intertwined the discussion of fatherhood, music in your own past and and being a professional musician. So how how does that play out in your family life now, in your household?
speaker-0 (54:42.294)
Yeah, I would say music is is something that gives me a way to to be very involved with my with my children. I think for the first year of my daughter's life, before I went into all this fatherhood ministry stuff, I was just practicing violin all day. So she would just lay on the floor and watch me play. And now I have have three children and we just we listen to a ton of classical music together. They all have their favorite composers. Even with my three year old loves certain opera tunes and
And stuff that would surprise you. we listen very widely. I I have made like playlists of of composers for every letter of the alphabet. So and we have two of those, so I guess they have, you know, two whole alphabets full of composers and then they f they pick the ones they like and then we lean more into that and they build their own, you know, Henry's favorites playlist we'll make for so you can listen to it. So that's that's a lot of fun. Classical music and and I love bluegrass as well, but
good music like that, especially as a family, super beneficial for the for the whole family. I've you know, I don't know if you've ever had a a career shift like this in life where you put you work so hard for one thing. Like from age four, I started playing violin and you and get two degrees in it and you work so hard. And then God gives you a new direction to go. you s kind of start to look for like, is there a way that that works together? And
And so it hit me one night. I had the kids were sleeping had just gone down for sleep. It was a long day. And I was playing some Bach in in my house. And and it popped into my head that I remembered that Bach was a father as well of many children. he ended up having twenty and and and wow and buried many of them at at early ages as well. But that's mostly overlooked in the discussion of his music. And I started to wonder if there were things I could learn
From Bach and from his music that would help me kind of balance everything that I was was doing in life and career. So kind of came up with this concept of of not work-life balance or work-family balance, but work-family polyphony. And and polyphony is this this technique that Bach used continually of of weaving multiple independent voices together in a in a way that's has some dissonance here and there, even, but it ultimately produces this this beautiful whole. So that's
speaker-0 (57:06.604)
I've been just spending my early mornings for the last few years. Before I work for Carnet nine to five, I'm just up and I'm studying Bach and I'm learning about him. And I'm finding finding ways to I think better care for my family as I look to his example of everything he must have gone through to try to create this gorgeous music while also training up his children well. And and we know he did it well because many of his sons became famous composers in their day as well.
speaker-1 (57:35.414)
Wow, that's beautiful. Yeah. The I love the image of I get weary of h of the balance when people work life balance or family because that you know things that are balanced are usually divided, you know, it's like a little bit over here, a little bit over there. Yeah. so I use the word you know, trying to find the integrated, you know, where our things are. but I think polyphonic might be even better. I don't know if you know in in Dante, hell there's there's no music, there's only noise.
speaker-0 (57:36.674)
That's become a
speaker-1 (58:04.396)
Purgatory, right? On the way up, ascending towards heaven is where man is being sort of prepared for heaven. He's he starts singing Gregorian chant, which is just everyone singing the same note. And then it's not until heaven where everyone is different and there's different levels, but there's no envy, there's no strife. So the music becomes polyphonic chant. so that they're all the the voice so everything is different, and it's a whole.
so it's this individuality and wholeness all at the same time. That's a really good image for creating order in a family from a father's perspective. So thank you for that coming from a professional violinist and a lover of Bach. Alex, thank you so much for being on the Sword and Spade Podcast. This has been an amazing discussion. And please pray for me and and be assured. I hope everyone out there make sure you pray for the work and especially for these for these men and the mentors.
if you've enjoyed this podcast, please head on over to Sword and Spade or better yet, just go ahead and become a member of Fraturnist Now and you can get Sword and Spade magazine in our new field guide for spiritual combat. so Alex, thanks again for being on the Sword and Spade Podcast. If anybody wants to find you, where should they look? Should they go to the the musical father substack or is there something else?
speaker-0 (59:24.322)
Yeah, that's a great place. So it's the musicalfather.substack dot com. That's just my you know, maybe once a month I send out an article or a listening guide or or some update on my kind of study about about Bach. It's intended to help you enjoy classical music in your home with your family, to to help your children kind of get in touch with the with that side of you by as you share share music together.
the work for CareNet, you can go to care net dot org slash dads to read more about what we're offering and our programs and how to get involved. And drdad.net is is a place where you can, if you want to get a good start in the early parenting arena, you can take those same courses that we offer to our pregnancy center clients. And it's some real really awesome information on pregnancy delivery and then infancy through toddlerhood and then additional classes on on your
work, finances and and personal health. So
speaker-1 (01:00:23.438)
Alex, thank you for everything you do.
speaker-0 (01:00:27.426)
Thank you for having me. I'm really excited. Anytime I connect with somebody who's who's serving men and and calling them up into their their role within the family, it's a it's a great need and I and I love the brotherhood that's that's just growing, I think, across the country right now of ministries that are surprise, surprise, God cares about men and the return on investment when you pour into them is that it impacts the entire family and the entire community. So keep up your excellent work with Returnus and Sword and Spade as well.
speaker-1 (01:00:55.646)
All right, thanks Alex.