075 | Rob Malin | Building a Planet-Friendly Wine Brand through New Consumption Occasions | When in Rome

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In episode 75, we delve into the unique journey of 'When in Rome' wine with its founder, Rob Malin.

We discover how challenging traditional wine packaging led to innovations like bag-in-box and paper bottles, driven by the brand's environmental commitments.

Rob shares insights on the complexities of entering the UK market, the impact of bottom-up and top-down strategies, and the importance of local versus national listings.

We talk about the crucial role of premium retailers like Waitrose in their growth, the financial hurdles faced by new brands, and the potential of cross-category competition in alcoholic beverages.

Time Stamps

00:00 Introduction to the Maffeo Drinks Podcast

01:04 Welcoming Rob Malin: Founder of When in Rome Wine

02:09 Exploring the Wine and Spirits Industry

03:57 The Rise of Canned Alcoholic Drinks

07:37 The Story Behind When in Rome Wine

13:05 Challenges and Strategies in the UK Market

17:32 Innovative Packaging and Environmental Impact

26:56 Building a Brand in Supermarkets

28:16 The Importance of Rate of Sale and Distribution

41:19 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

About The Guest: Rob Malin

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Rob Malin

Founder | When in Rome | Wine

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafer Drinks
podcast, I'm your host Chris

Mafeo.
In episode 75, we delve into the

unique journey of When in Rome
wine with founder Rob Mullen.

We discover how challenging
traditional when packaging led

to innovations like begging box
and paper bottles driven by the

brand's environmental
commitments.

Rob shares insights on the
complexities of entry in the UK

market, the impact of bottom up
and top down strategies, and the

importance of local versus
national listings.

We talk about the crucial role
of premium retailers like

Waitrose in their growth, the
financial hurdles faced by new

brands and the potential of
cross category competition in

alcoholic beverages.
I hope you will enjoy our chat.

If you enjoy this podcast,
please take the time to leave a

review on Spotify or Apple
Podcasts.

You can also check out
mafairdrinks.com, where you can

subscribe to my mini guides on
Substrack or download my new

digital course on how to
bootstrap a drinks brand.

Hi Rob, how are you?
I'm fine, I'm fine.

It's so good here in Prague, and
it's an honor to have you on

because you're the first known
Italian that actually speaks

Italian that I look.
So it's a strange feeling, but

actually we, you know, this,
this podcast is in English.

So we don't take it in English.
But it's also like in the, the

main thing for which I'm very
honoured is that because you are

the first wine brand that is a
guest on the Mafia Drinks

podcast.
We have to thank our mutual

friend Cyrus Johnson for, for
making this happen.

You know, on the podcast, I
mainly have spirits brands and

people that work with cocktails
and drinks.

And in that sense, I mean, the
original reason why it's called

Mafia Drinks is because I wanted
to have it as generic as

possible so that, you know, I
would include wines and beers.

And I was trying to find a word
that, you know, I wouldn't like

to have spirits or beers or wine
specifically.

But, you know, when we think
about it, it's also very

interesting to see in all these
categories that are interlink

with each other, but actually
also very, very different.

So what's your take on the wine?
Because it's, it's, it's often

called like, you know, the wines
and spirit.

But what do you think about
that?

It strikes me from listening to
some of your content how much

similarity there is.
I mean, there are key

differences too, but there's so
much similarity between spirits

and wise and we don't talk to
each other.

It says a lot that a lot of the
people I was listening to on

your podcast, people I've never
heard of, and I've been in the

drinks trade now for six years.
And yet the challenges we face

are really similar.
And of course, they complement

you, right?
Because people drink from across

those categories.
And yet our communication is at

least speaking personally, it's
really poor.

That's a very interesting one
because also I come from beer

and, and made myself, let's say
my space into the spirits world

by, you know, by studying, by
doing the WSCT.

Actually, the first one I did
the the level 2 was in wines and

then I did that in the in
spirits.

And I love to have all this
cross pollination and, you know,

and analysing things how how
they work and so on.

Especially because if you think
about it, it is what they

usually call the traditional
occasions play as a role into

the brand building.
Historically, for example, like

there's been a lot of wine trade
in the in Britain, for example,

as you know, it's one of the
countries where it's most

developed, although historical,
it hasn't been a wine producing

country, but it hasn't been a
wine importing country, you

know, and, and all these
elements that play around with

beer.
And, you know, there are

countries that are beer driven,
there are countries that are

spirits driven, there are
countries that are wine driven.

But then like how old that plays
into role.

You know, you have to consider
always there what's the

historical conditions of food
and beverage are to then tap

onto those existing occasions to
actually put the food in the

door and.
Make room for your brand, right?

What's incredible if you think
about, you know, not just

whining cans, but what you
canned out at the rise of canned

alcoholic drinks, right?
Be that beer, spirits or in RTD

cocktails or or wine is that we
are all competing directly with

each other in a way that I don't
think we have done before.

You know, if you go and look in
a convenience store, let's say

the railway station in London,
there will be a chill chiller of

alcoholic drinks and it is
canned wine, canned RTD

cocktails and can't be all next
to each other.

And, and so we're competing head
to

But I think that's a completely
new phenomenon.

Absolutely no.
And it's super interesting what

you say because I it made me
think of something that I

discussed with some of my
friends and, and listeners.

Is that about, for example, my
podcast now is like it's, it's

super targeted, it's super niche
in what I talk about.

But ultimately I'm competing
with the Joe Rogan's and the and

the news and the BBC and you
know, like with, with totally

different, you know, ball game.
Obviously, you know, like I'm

not there with this and so on.
But if you think about if you're

driving to work and you've got
half an hour, 40 minutes, I

mean, you click on Spotify and
whatever comes in, you listen to

it and, and I'm fighting for
those 45 minutes of your time in

the morning.
So it could be you calling your

kids or, you know, like
listening to the news or

listening to music or Joe Rogan
or my third drinks podcast.

It's you know, it's totally
different as a as a category,

but the fight for time is
exactly the same.

So when you look at it from a
share of throat kind of

perspective, you know, I want a
refreshing drink to to your

previous example, you know, I
opened the fridge in the store.

What am I going to have?
You know, like maybe I wanted to

have a beer and then I have wine
or vice versa.

And it's super interesting to
think about it that way because

at the same time you have like
super high competition, but also

you've got like huge
opportunities, as you said now

because, you know, you you tap
on to an occasion rather than on

to a category fight.
And then he was like, OK, like,

actually maybe I don't know. 20%
of my drinkers are coming from

beer, which I would have never
thought.

The interesting thing is that
we're also in the UK

predominantly talking about an
occasion that for example in

Italy doesn't really exist,
right?

If you're taking an evening
train home from London, so let's

say Edinburgh, it's a four and a
half hour journey and I would

say a good half of the people on
that train will have their

dinner on that train.
If you took the same train from

Milan to Rome at the same time
and you'd say an evening, then

0% of people having their dinner
on the train.

I'm working with a nation that
is producing wine for an

occasion doesn't exist in its
own in its own country, you

know, and I think that's one of
the reasons why canned wine has

been so slow to develop in Italy
itself.

It's just starting to happen, by
the way, but it's, it's been

really slow because the
occasions for which it's

consumed are just much smaller,
you know?

That's a great point, by the
way, because it's, first of all,

I think any, I think Italians on
a train from Rome to Milan, they

would spend 4 1/2 hours.
Well, now it's three, but they

would spend them on the phone
deciding where to go for dinner.

And also let real talk about the
state of, you know, these your

beautiful high speed trains
literally compared to our trains

in the UK.
That's, that's another

conversation entirely, you know,
but for my business, it's a good

thing that our trains are slow,
you know.

That's true.
That's true.

You're hijacking those.
Trains I don't want.

High speed trains I don't want.
Slower, let's go back a second

and then and and explain to us
and to and to the listener, Rob,

what, what, what is your brands
and what you know?

How did you start it?
And you know what is the initial

idea of how you started and
probably you know also how it

has developed versus what you
had in mind in the beginning.

1st in terms of the brands, I
mean a beautiful opportunity to

be able to explain to a real
Roman why our business is called

when in Rome.
As you know, in English, we have

an expression when in Rome do as
the Romans do.

And it means that when you go to
a different country, you respect

their customs and their
traditions, right.

And I get every nation has an,
an equivalence in its own

language and it's always very
different actually, which is,

which is interesting in itself.
So the business is 6 years old.

I have two founding partners.
They're both Italian, both

Milanese.
One is an XY maker, the other

one's been selling wine in, in
Milan for a long, long time.

Milan is very, quite unique in
Italy in that it's a very

cosmopolitan city, like both in
the, the classic sense of the

word, cosmopolitan, but also
within Italy that there's people

from every region of Italy
living in Milan, you know,

sizable communities that wanted
to drink their own, their own

regions, whites.
And so there's a lot of

opportunity to sell wines from
all over the country because it

isn't like that in in the South
of Italy.

And it's unusual to find wine
from the north, right?

So in Milan, my business partner
set up two shops there selling

selling wine from all over Italy
from genuinely for quite small

producers.
And it's what in Italian you

call vinos forzo.
So, you know, loose wine in

English, all I would get to call
it wine on tower.

And they were selling wine in
refillable bottles.

This is how their business
began.

And then we were looking at the
best way to kind of replicate

that experience in the UK and it
was with what wine in boxes and

in in doing so realizing this
opportunity for high quality

wine in boxes in the UK.
We also looked at the

statistics.
And in Scandinavia for example,

about 60% of wine sold is sold
in boxes.

And we're like, well, why is
this actually?

And it is all because of the
climate impacts of the

packaging.
Single use glass bottles are 50%

of the climate impact of the
wine industry.

And so we decided to set up a,
you know, premium brand of the

UK wine in box called Wine in
Rome, because with the wine in

box, it allows you to drink a
small amount of wine every day.

So, you know, the Italians have,
as you probably know, higher the

capita alcohol consumption than
the youth, than the Brits, but

you'd never see a drunk Italian
because you guys drink much more

sensibly than we did, you know.
And so this is the thing, you

know, we were like drink less,
but drink better.

And then a box, a wine box was
sort of take those boxes and

enables us to do that.
Love that, love that.

And it reminds me like of my,
like the, I mean the old times.

I mean, I, I showed you a photo
the other day that, you know,

my, my great grandfather, my
grandfather, there were

wholesalers in the South of
Italy near Avelino.

And every time I, I, I walk by
in Rome, like there were all

this Vigneol, you know, wines
and oil, you know, shops that.

And back in this when I was a
kid, you know, like it was still

like that, that you would go
with your own bottle and they

would fill it up with, you know,
there was a huge barrel.

I mean, it was basically like a
fake barrel on the wall.

But then inside there was like a
container where the wine was

literally on top.
And then you would have the

Rosso Bianco and then you would
just like have a Dami Jan of

wine and you would either take
it Dami Jan from their stock

and, you know, use it as a
refill.

I mean, I grew up having, you
know, wine Damijan like under

the sink in the kitchen.
One of my first task as a

teenager was like to pour the
wine from the Damijan to the

bottles from my parents for, for
lunch and dinner.

That there's always been a
bottle of wine at lunch and

dinner.
And I've never ever seen my

father or mom drunk.
That I couldn't believe this

when I first moved to Italy
myself.

I'm like, wow, you know, the
idea of having just, you know,

one glass of wine with lunch,
maybe 2 with dinner and then

just stopping it, it, it shocked
me in, in a positive sense.

You know, if, if you think about
it like what you've just

described is, is, is so much of
what we've been talking about

and what we need to do to combat
climate change as a society,

It's like circularity in
moderation, right?

And that is exactly what you
just described, circularity.

I mean, we, we're very, very
careful.

So obviously we're into
decarbonisation and you know, we

started with glass bottles
because that is the the fastest

and easiest way to decarbonise
the wine industry.

But we're very careful to talk
about single use glass bottles

because it's single use glass
bottles at a problem.

Like like there's nothing wrong
with a wine glass and there's

nothing wrong with a reusable
bottle.

In fact, you know that that kind
of reusable piece is something

that I would love to see take
off in the UK, but it's very

hard to to get it right.
We've tried and we've tried and

failed so far to be honest.
People usually don't think

about, but like a lot of the
reasons there is this single use

bottles of that historically.
And I was, let's say a good way

for brands to get a a sample in,
you know, like when you know,

the first beer brands that
started this, I don't want to

mention any name.
They started like kind of like

fighting the returnable bottle
system now, because it was like,

I leave you a case, check it
out, try it, try to sell it, and

then you order another one.
You know, which is much easier

than setting up a contract or
setting up a contract with a

wholesaler and you know,
creating all this returnable

system and you know, like a
crate of empty bottles to bring

back and, and so forth.
So how are you working with the,

let's say, with the commercial
aspects of that?

So like, how did you start
commercializing your product?

And first of all, like you, so
you started in the in the UK, if

I, if I understand.
Correctly started in the UK and

started.
I mean you're very much about

bottom up, but I started as
bottom up as it as it can be.

I started on the farmers market
in a city called Bath in the UK.

A huge respect to people who
work on farmers markets because

I started in the winter, it was
very, very cold.

You know, I can remember giving
out samples of, of red wine and

people like this wine's a bit
cold, you know, and I'm like,

and what about me?
You know, it was really hard

work.
And I like go back to both

farmers market about six years
later and the same people are

still there selling cheese and,
and salami and fresh vegetables.

And, you know, kudos to those
guys.

So that's a hard way to earn a
living, although very satisfied.

You know, we were discovered
actually by Waitrose.

So it's Auk supermarket that
literally found us on Instagram

and and said, do you want to
work with us?

Like we think that's the space
for premiumizing the back in box

category because back in box 1,
the UK historically has a very

bad reputation.
It started in the 80s with kind

of low quality Australian wide
and low quality containers.

And the reputation is pretty
bad.

And they were like, we think
there's space for us in

partnership to premiumize the
back in box category in the wine

industry.
And will you work with us?

And it didn't take us long to
say yes, you know?

And then what was the path you
know, like to for, for growth?

So, so start starting, you know,
like how did you expand into the

UK market?
So I mean, firstly, you know,

Waitrose and the original wine
buyer from Waitrose, you know,

we call her the patron, say to
wedding rogue because she did a

huge amount to be yeah, this.
And yeah, you can some of you

guys could cover that.
Actually.

I think Jack or Ewing in
particular talks about the the

challenges of working with
supermarkets.

And when I listen to that
podcast, I thought, Oh my God,

if I'd listened to Jack before
starting this business, I'm not

sure I've had the courage to do
it because he, you know, he's so

kind of brutal in his assessment
of the, the use of, you know,

what working capital you need to
do business with supermarkets.

I had no idea, Chris.
You know, so we rolled out

nationally in waitress and of
course, you know, very quickly

had to raise money on the back
of that.

But we're also we're able to,
you know, and I was lucky that I

was, I was working in banking at
the time.

So I had some, you know,
financial resources of my own

seed capital very quickly needed
to raise money.

And it's exactly as Jack said,
you know, you, you, we raised a

small amount of money, what we
thought was an enormous amount

of time, you know, 300,000 lbs,
we're like, great, we're done.

And then as the rate of sale
grew, we're like, Oh my God,

this is like, this is nowhere
near enough, you know, and, and

I hadn't realized it, how much
money gross costs, it's just

expense.
You know, the Waitrose really

was the vehicle for our growth.
And, and they have a reputation

in the UK for incubating brands.
And you know, they did exactly

that with us.
This is the burning question for

me as a true on trade lover.
What made you choose, you know,

for example, Waitrose compared
to the on trade, you know, the

pure bottom up approach that I'm
that I'm always discussing, you

know, in, in, in, in full
honesty, you know, like in the

yeah, you know, I, I don't take
it personally.

No, no, no.
There's two things I'd say.

People in the wide history, it's
really annoying.

They're always saying the wide
industry is different, you know,

But the wide history, Chris, is
different in the sense that we

felt, we felt that in the on
trade, the on trade is a really

good place to build a beer or
spirits brands.

And it's not so good for the,
for the, the wine trade.

I think in in the UK, you know,
that the, the pub, for example,

is not really a wine focused
establishment.

You sell a lot of wine, but you
know, it did this.

There's no branding because I
mean, firstly, because it's,

it's, it's sold in bottles and
fridge.

So there's no optics.
And so the spirits of the beer

presented in very different
ways, right, historically.

And that is actually changing.
But so firstly, we felt that it

wasn't the best place to build a
brag room.

And secondly, was pure naivety
because my background is not the

drinks industry.
So I came into this, you know,

from financial services, didn't
know what I didn't know.

And like many entrepreneurs
here, the, the longer I'm in

this industry and so the more I
understand that I, I don't know

much.
So, so it was a, it was a

combination of, you know, some,
some strategic thinking, but

also naivety.
Now I can imagine, but also I'm

assuming like from what I'm, you
know, listening to founders is

also like you want to fast track
the brand, you know, you want to

drive growth as soon as
possible.

And automatically you think that
modern trade is the one that is

going to make it happen, you
know, But then there is the flip

side of the coin is the
financial resources and the cash

flow and everything that is
required to make that happen.

Yeah.
And, and, and actually, we

think, you know, with this,
there's what what is happening

in the entree.
The UK, our star strategy is

changing us because, for
example, we sell wine and paper

bottle, it's made by chemical
frugal packet.

It's this the only commercially
available paper wine bottle.

However, the, the on trade
opportunity there is much

larger.
And you know, we realized that

for for, for sporting events,
for music events, you know, we

had some very amusing
conversation because, you know,

in, in in concert venues and not
allowed to take a glass bottle

of wine into the arena.
Of course you're not right.

And we've actually had a
conversation with a arena, the

way we were supplying wine and
they were like, like, can you

hurt somebody with this bottle?
Like what damage can you do with

it?
And I'm like, no.

And I, you know, I had a had a
video call with him.

I literally banged myself on the
head with this bottle and I'm

like, you can't hurt anyone with
this bottle, you know, and they,

you know, if somebody smashes
you in the face with a full when

he wrote a paper wine bottle,
like you're going to be pretty

annoyed, but it's not going to
hurt.

It's yeah, it's not going to
kill you, You know, and with

these the sort of conversation
we've had, so the on trade

opportunity there is huge.
We came to it by by accident

really.
We basically got contacted by

the Etihad Arena that they were
hosting the concerts, the UK leg

of Coldplay's last World tour.
Coldplay had an intention to

reduce the carbon footprint of
their tour by 50%.

And so they sent us sort of 48
page PDF to every venue and said

reduce your carbon footprint.
They came to us and said we'll

have your wine bottles.
And of course, sold much more

than expected because it was
literally during the concerts

they realized there was no
reason why people needed to

decount this wine into another,
into a plastic cup.

But why do they need to do that?
They could just take the bottle

into the arena with the cups.
And, and so that can happen

really by accident actually.
Wow.

And this is like it's it makes
you think of how you can have an

occasion in mind, but then this
kind of occasions that you are

totally dismissing initially,
then you realize that actually

they can actually play a role.
You know, like some categories

can play a role.
But when you were talking, I was

thinking like pool scenario, you
know, like, you know, you can

sit at the pool and then you
don't actually think about

having a bottle of wine when you
know, glasses not allowed and so

on.
But then you don't want to have

a you know, how are going?
Are you going to have it?

You know, like you basically
need to ask for a, a plastic

glass of wine for, you know,
like at the bar and then bring

it to where to where you are?
No, but but in in that case, for

example, it could, it could play
a role and it's an occasion that

has been historically, you know,
played by canned beer or you

know, other things that don't,
let's say get so affected by a

different kind of packaging.
The the wine industry has been

so attached to one particular
container for so long, that kind

of transition been really
painful for us.

You know, if you look at the
canned wine space in the UK, let

alone the paperwork, but the
paper on both of space like it

is, it is challenging brands,
the the main wide brands are

just not, not in that space.
You know they will come, they

will come of course, but they're
not there at all as at the

moment.
I think you'd like for for them

it's a bit of a, it's the hard
one.

No, it's like other industries
now.

It's like, you know, you want to
have the, the smaller player to

play the role of innovators and
then create that kind of demand,

you know, bottom up.
And then at some point you just

have to adapt it and, you know,
adopt it and adapt to it and do

it.
And, and how, how has been your

journey in creating the demand
for your product?

You know, because usually 1, you
know, big part of it is the

so-called liquid and lips.
Now when, when it comes to

spirits or beers, you know, you
want to get sampling and and so

on.
So you, you mentioned the farmer

markets, for example, but you
know, how have you played when

you, let's call it like not
focusing on the, on trade, you

are, you know, like when you are
sold in Waitrose, then of

course, like people like they,
they need to buy directly the

full package, you know, without
tasting it now.

So how did you manage to play
that game of, you know, creating

that demand and doing the the
the sampling, convincing people

to try it before buying the the
full package?

Yeah, I mean, and that that was
a huge challenge for us because

in the beginning, you know, so
now we have we are, we have one

in three containers now being
small way, 7 milk cans, 750 mil

paper bottle and 2.25 liter box,
right In the beginning was only

a 2.25 liter box and that
launched at Waitrose 25 lbs

which is a lot of money to
spend, you know, on wine that

you've never tasted.
We tackled that in two ways.

So we did a lot of food and
drink fairs in the beginning.

So you know, within Waitrose, so
something within Waitrose and

the Waitrose drinks festivals,
but also all the wine festivals,

we did them all.
And the other thing we did was

we had a kind of a taster pack,
which was like a mini bagging

box, like 100 mil samples, night
of our wines and a sort of what

looks like a kind of a like a
pizza trail mix with like little

tiny bagging boxes inside it.
And we worked with a company in

the UK that helped us do that.
And we saw that on our website

for basically no margin just to
get people.

It kind of made a nice present
for people because it's like

like 9 small glasses of wine of
different wines.

And that was another way to get
liquid tulips, you know?

And this is also like one of the
things that I mean, Waitrose to

this example of or let's say the
UK in general, it's a very

forward thinking market now.
Like if you, if you think about

it compared to other markets,
it's also like it's super, super

developed in terms of, you know,
food festivals, you know, the

categories and all the things.
And you know, like it's quite

innovative in that sense if you
compare it to other countries.

And so it's, it's very smart.
From what I'm hearing, by being

in the modern trade, you played
with some ways that actually are

belonging to the what I, what I
usually call the bottom up

trade, No.
So where you can actually have a

conversation with people that
despite being only a shelf in

the actual store, there's not so
many people you know, walking

around helping you choose in a
supermarket.

No, but but they know if you
play with, let's say events or

or things that are actually
organized by that player, then

the dynamics are very similar to
being listed in 10 bars and

having bartenders supporting
your brand.

You know, yeah, 100% and.
And doing an event into the bar,

you know, it's almost like
instead of focusing on the

channels, it's about focusing on
the way you want to interact

with with the shopper in that
sense, you know, and then it

doesn't matter actually where
you are if you can play with the

same kind of like dynamics.
So it can be a farmer's market,

it can be a supermarket
organized food show.

It can be, you know, many
different things that actually

can mimic the dynamics that
historically has been attributed

to the on trade and to the
liquid and lips kind of.

Approach again, we benefit from
that because like we're an Anglo

Italian business, right.
And, and so my business

partners, one of them that that
was his English pretty decent,

actually.
The the other one, not so much,

but like they didn't even really
speak English and, you know,

they're very, very Italian and
and I'm very, very British.

And that worked in ways that we
really didn't expect because in

your country, like people that
the idea of a chain of bars or a

chain of restaurants or a chain
of anything is like the little

bit like we don't like chains,
you know, like, yeah.

And, and whereas in the UK we're
so kind of shaped by marketing

trends that like a chain is a
it's always a good theme.

Basically, you know, the, the
sort of combination of having my

business partners appreciation
and like our grassroots wine

culture and my understanding of
the the Anglo-Saxon way of life

just kind of created
opportunities for us that we

would not have found it in, you
know, in another context, you

know.
It goes back to trust, you know,

I mean, all, all brands choices
and all things are actually like

driven by trust.
So in in Italy, I think it's

more, you know, the trust
element is done by the is played

by the family that owns the rest
sort of right now.

So you know, the family, they've
been in neighbourhood, they've

been doing that thing for a
while.

But you know, in, in in Britain,
for example, the pubs used to

have that kind of element.
And then by by developing, then

the the chain becomes the
trusted boys that that you have.

Because at some point is if you
go to another city and you don't

know anybody, then you see the
dead logo and then you say, OK,

actually I know that restaurant
chain from my hometown and I

trust them.
So probably they have the same

kind of approach and the same
care about, you know, people and

ingredients and stuff.
So let's let's go there.

You know, so it's interesting
how how those things play and

what I'm in the middle of doing
right now is I'm creating a

course and I'm standardizing my
trainings and I'm actually

creating these steps that I,
that I'm calling 1 bottle, one

case, one pallet.
You know, and this is the

journey of a brand.
And, and in fact, you know,

there is the independent side of
things.

First, you know, the friends and
family and independent, then

there's the groups.
What you're exactly saying, you

know, the groups and chains and
then the modern trade is playing

the role like on the on the back
of that, you know, because then

it's the other step before the
export kind of environment now.

But I'm trying to visualize it
for founders to think like, OK,

like what are the step?
What are the consequential steps

in how you're thinking has to
change when you're engaging with

different kind of players?
And also even within the off

trade, when you're talking to
different, we know, we now work

with, you know, different
retailers across the UK, not

just Waitrose work with
Sainsbury's, work with Asda,

work with Ocado and, and they
will have very, very different

ways of, of operating as well.
But I think, you know, in, in

terms of your bottom up
approach, the way that that

applies is that the appeal of a
supermarket chain for your brand

is incredible because overnight
you will launch the general

launch.
You went to say 300 stores,

right?
That's a huge jump in

distribution for a brand like
us.

But it will just sit there on
the shelf because, you know, if

you're a small brand, you don't
have that top of funnel kind of

brand that people don't know who
you are and they will just walk

straight past your wall.
Yeah.

And then that is a, you know,
huge disadvantage compared to

the the entree because there is
nobody to recommend it or to

help you.
You know, the supermarket staff

will not have, I mean, the, the
big difference actually between

Waitrio and Waitrose have beer,
wine and drink specialists that

will have tried most of what
they sell, right.

So there is some scope to
recommend the product.

The others are not like that,
but you've got to build appeal.

Basically to your point on
trust, the ratings on the, the

website's incredibly important.
Each supermarket has certain

e-commerce of your course and
you have to look at the rating

on that because people will not
look.

If you're shopping in
Sainsbury's, you don't look at

Divino to sort of look at the
quality of the wine, you look at

the reviews by Sainsbury's
customers.

You have to make sure that you
are addressing that piece

properly, right?
You know, one of the things that

I discussed a lot is, is the
fact that you have to grow this,

you know, you have to grow rate
of sale while building

distribution now because
otherwise, you know, you're

entering this kind of like fish
circle on LinkedIn.

I call it the six bottles in one
bar is better than one bottle in

each bar for six bars.
You know, this is usually one of

those posts that I get like all
the challenges now and then, you

know, there's the lovers and
haters is a little bit like is

the coriander kind of post, you
know, like that's really, yeah,

of course it's 6 bottles in one
bar and then the other guy's

like, no, you cannot do that,
you know, but for me, it's a

mindset kind of thing.
No.

And also going back to what you
were talking, talking about the,

the, the bottom up, like I'm,
I'm, I'm not trying to exemplify

what, what I mean by bottom up.
No, and it's, it's more like a

mentality.
It doesn't have like a fixed

rules.
It's just like you're kind of

like challenger thinking that
you need to be always mindful of

no, But you know, the one of the
biggest challenges of being

listed in supermarket chain as,
as you right say, is that it's

not only about getting listed,
it's about staying listed, you

know, because that is the big
challenge for brands.

So how, how do you manage to do
that?

And, and, and for example, you
know, like I'm, I'm, my

experience has been mainly on
trade.

You know, I've worked with
supermarket chains, but never in

a buyer, you know, seller kind
of relationship.

No.
So, so for example, like do they

give you a room for a limited
amount of stores in the

beginning?
Because some chains do that now.

So I don't know, like how some
chains are managing this.

You know, like, for example, in
Sweden, when I lived in Sweden

in in system block it the off
trade channel, the, the, the,

the state monopoly.
You know, they give you an A

sets of, you know, a listing and
then if you perform well, then

they extend the distribution to
A to a wider number.

Now, how does it work and how
has it worked?

Let's say for you in the journey
of growing from for example,

from Waitrose to the early days
of Waitrose, for example, to

move into the next chain and and
growing distribution across.

Modern trade in the UK
supermarkets works in quite a

similar way actually to to to
the Swedish monopoly in that

generally will launch into a
small subset of stores.

They will give you a target rate
of sale.

If you hit that rate of sale,
you know, you eventually grow

your distribution until the
point that you end up in the

whole estate.
So in Waitrose, we're in every

store, including all the
convenience stores.

In Sainsbury's, Asda, we are
not.

The challenge for a challenge of
brand, if you like, is you will

not launch in a central London
convenience store.

Yeah, you will launch in a
provincial town, right.

And and that for you, you know,
you're trying to sell a paper

wine bottle to somebody.
Like what you want to do is you

want to be in in Shoreditch or
Islington or or Battersea, you

know, where Green Party
activists will come and buy your

wine because it's good for the
environment, you know.

And instead you launch in
Sainsbury's.

And I'm not going to choose to
shame the regional town of the

UK.
But do you launch somewhere you

don't want to launch, Right.
And, and, and say you have the

challenge to build a rate of
sale with people who are not

your target consumer.
And what we've done, there's a

couple of things we had to do
actually, you know, while we

were very, very hard on the way,
our listings presented and, and

promoted within the, within the
stores.

And we've done very limited
marketing.

We've never done out of home
advertising, for example, then

some sort of did digital
advertising.

That's it.
But what one significant change

we made actually to our, to our
brand is because obviously the

history of branding in wine is
not as strong as it is in, in

beer or spirits.
And you've got the other thing,

the thing that resonates for
consumers is like the grape

type, right?
And if you look at the market

and you know, we started off,
we're an Italian specialist.

So we wanted to shift showcase
all the incredible variety of

grapes there are across Italy,
Falangina, Alianico, all these

beautiful types that people like
you, you can't sell these, these

they don't move.
You know, if you're an as,

forget it.
You know, if you are an

independent wine store or wine
bar or a Italian restaurant,

then you will do very well with
these grapes if you are in a

national supermarket.
But I'll give you a step, right.

So I think the wallet of for
Italian wine in the UKI think

the UK spends nearly a billion
pounds a year on Italian wine

varietals, right?
And about 400 million of that is

on Pinot Grigio.
So if you're not telling Pinot

Grigio, you've got a mountain to
climb in in terms of

recognition, right?
A red wine equivalence,

Primitivo.
Over time we've grid, we've

graduated to sort of very good
examples of much more familiar

Italian grapes because that's
what people are looking for.

So if you look at the branding
on our cans, you know, Pinot

Grigio is actually more
prominent than the when in Rome

because Pinot Grigio's much
better known than when in Rome.

So we put the grape type first
on our cans.

Actually, it's quite unusual,
but that's the way we've, you

know, we chose to be great lead
and over the time we've kind of

consolidated down the varieties
we sell because that is was what

people are looking for.
Like over time, we'd like to

think that our with ours, our
brand becomes more prominent,

better known that we could
probably venture back into some

of those great types because
that's what we like to do.

You know, it's from from our
hearts what people want to do,

but people don't know what
they're buying and they won't

buy them.
I.

Hear there because those are
actually the grape wines from my

father.
I did it, yes.

And every time I try, you know,
like I try to bring a bottle to

a friend and so on, and then,
you know, or I mention it and,

and, and that like, you know,
crickets.

Maybe you get lucky, you know,
like with some of them, but it's

pretty rare that they hear it.
So, but it's, it's very

interesting.
And, and what, what you were

saying about the provincial town
listing, you know, it's also

like quite counter intuitive,
no, because you know,

automatically you start from the
bigger cities.

No, So I would understand it
from, you know, if you are from

a certain region, you know that
you are producing in that

region.
And then I would understand that

they give you the listing on
that, that particular, you know,

rural area or smaller town kind
of thing.

But that makes it super
complicated.

And do you, do you have a say
in, in the choice of that

provincial town or, or or
actually just like, OK, we'll

give you this.
I mean, we've actually got

lucky.
So we're, we're based in Stroud

in Gloucestershire, which is the
sort of self-proclaimed eco

capital of the UK.
And, and each time we've gained

a listing, we've ended up
getting listed in, in the, in

the, in the local branches of
that supermarket.

And that's just by luck, you
know, and, and, and they've

consistently, the Stroud branch
outperforms, you know, and rates

of sale terms because people
know who we are.

We're a local employer, albeit a
very small one, but we are,

we're a local business.
So that's kind of helped us.

But no, generally, I mean, I'll
tell you what really resonated

me.
I've listened to Nick from

Mangrove talking and he's like,
you know, occasionally I'll work

with a brand that's just like,
yes, just do it.

I love it because it's just a
great brand.

For his business to survive, he
needs brands and to thrive, he

needs brands that just sell,
right?

And then just that they just
work and, and so you've got that

mix and, and I think with us,
there's a little bit of both

because you know, when we come
to a supermarket at UK, like we

like to think we're offering
them something that they don't

have because, you know, we are a
brand that is focused on low

carbon packaging formats or
decarbonizing viticulture.

We open the doors.
Generally we lead with our

environmental credentials
because, you know, supermarkets

need to reduce their scope 3
carbon emissions and we can help

them do that significantly,
right.

So that's the kind of let's do
it part.

Like we're like these guys,
they're like eco friendly,

they've got good heart.
But at the same time, like

there's no way I'm going to
launch them in our prime central

London spots because like this,
that shelf space is very, very

expensive.
So to get there, you've got to

prove it, you know, and, and
speaking in all honesty, we've

proved that in Waitrose.
You know, we think we're

probably the best selling can
wine brand in, in that

supermarket chain and in the
other UK supermarket chains

where we're selling like when,
when we're not at that point

yet.
We need more buddy, because you

know, as you, as your working
capital requirement grows too,

and then you don't have funds
for marketing and then you need

more investment to be able to
grow the recognition.

And and so that's how it the the
theory continues.

It's super fascinating what
you're talking about because

there's, there's two elements
like 1 is the sustainability

element that I'm going to talk
about in a second.

But the, the first one is also
like going back to the

distribution rate of sales, kind
of Ying and Yang of, of

distribution.
I think Nick was mentioning that

in the, in a previous episode
that, that they were saying

that, you know, you get the, the
leap of faith, you know, from

the buyer, you know, like, it's
like Rob is a great guy.

He's a charming guy.
Like, I want to give him a

chance, you know, like he's a
great guy.

Like I, I really believe in
their, you know, products.

So there's this, there's the,
let's say the foot in the door,

which is the buyer that could
say yes or no to any brands.

And sometimes you have the buyer
that says no to you, but

actually the market would have
been ready for your brand.

It's just that the buyer is the
judge, you know, it's the

judgement day, but he says no.
But on the other side says like,

OK, I'll, I'll try another day,
you know, But then the most kind

of like interesting and
fascinating and, and dangerous

game is when the other thing
happens so that the judge says

yes.
So the buyer takes that leap of

faith, but then the market is
not ready for it.

And then you don't manage to to
reach that rate of sale level

that is required by the market
because that particular region

where you have been listed is
not ready for your brand.

And then basically like becomes
this kind of strange situation

where you actually celebrated
that you got in, but but then

you actually don't manage to
stay in.

You know, probably you have some
experience on this with, you

know, with some listings or like
probably like, you know, some

regions are performing better
than other regions and and so

on.
But it's the ultimate tests of

the market.
Now, you know, you need to have

the cash in the bank to follow
up on that growth, you know, and

that becomes the kind of like
the catch 22 or the the vicious

circle.
Now that you get the listing,

you maybe get the rate of sale.
You if you get the rate of sale,

the orders grow, you know, the
cash involved upfront for that

grow, you know, like has to grow
so you need more funding and

then you enter these like, you
know, like there's noble effect.

So what's your take on that one?
I mean, I don't want to ask you

for, you know, specific, you
know, you as a brand because

those are like even confidential
things, but more like what is

the state of the industry in
that, in that terms, you know,

when you talk to other players
as well and when you have

discussions in, you know, with
buyers and colleagues on

fuelling that growth and and so
on.

Well, I, I would contrast our
experience actually.

And if I look at the different
formats.

So whereas wine in cans is
relatively established part of

the industry, now you've got
fillers of different sizes and

scales and you can make a pallet
of wine, a pallet of can wine,

you know, all you can make
thousands and thousands of, you

know, hundreds of thousands of
the high speed at sort of a

different different margins,
right.

And then at the same time, in UK
retail, that is that is a fast

growing segment now.
And if you look at the way

canned alcohol is is sold now in
the UK off trade, you're

generally on a sort of four for
three multi save type offers.

So you go in, you can maybe get,
you know, and they grow neo gin

and tonic and two cans of wine,
get a discount, right.

Or a couple of beers, couple of
wines.

Yeah, that's the way it's.
So that cast me just booming.

It's absolutely booming.
The paper wine bottle.

I was it.
That's been very different

experience because the
infrastructure, you know, we had

to persuade a wine filler to
invest money to adapt to a

filling line to help us fill.
And of course, at that point,

you can't negotiate hard on
price.

So that affects your margin.
And then you appear on the shelf

in a supermarket and you're
like, Oh my God.

We've listed, we're the first
brand in the world to list a

paper wine bottle in a
supermarket, you know, and, and

that, that's the cartwheel
moment you're talking about,

right?
We're like, Oh my God.

And then you're like, right, And
now we've got to persuade people

to buy this.
And we are the only brand in

this packaging, right?
And, and in the wine industry,

which is not receptive to new
packaging.

So when we're asking for funding
for investors and they're like,

well, you know, what are you
going to do if how the wine

brand starts selling wine and
paper bottles?

I'm like, I would love that
because, you know, we want

people to buy our wine because
they like our brand, they like

our liquid, right?
Not because of the container.

The container is there to save
carbon, right?

And, and certain to reduce the
climate impacts of our, of our,

of our business and, and, and,
and therefore slow down global

warming, right?
Like there's not a way to want

people to buy just because it's
going to make a bottle.

If you're part of a category
that is growing, then it's a

rising tide lifts or ships,
right?

So if there's other wine brands
alongside, then people are

making a choice between a
straightforward brand choice

rather than a, this is a blast
bottle.

It's a paper bottle likely.
What the hell is this?

You know, So whilst you know, I
guess that's true of any of

innovation in any industry, you
know, the wine can piece has

been a joy to be part of.
The paper bottle has been

incredibly rewarding but very,
really hard work.

That's all for today.
Remember that this is a two-part

episode, 75 and 76.
Feel free to listen to both.

One last thing, if you enjoy
this podcast, please leave a

review, share it with friends
and remember that brands are

built bottom up.