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Welcome to The NICU Translated Podcast, where we break down the complex world of the NICU into clear, relatable insights for families and the professionals who support them. Hosted by Mary Farrelly—a certified NICU nurse, doula, and educator—this podcast is your go-to resource for navigating the NICU with confidence and compassion.
Whether you’re a doula looking to better support NICU families, a healthcare professional seeking deeper understanding, or a parent preparing for or living through a NICU journey, you’ll find actionable tips, evidence-based guidance, and heartfelt stories to inspire and empower you.
Each week, we’ll explore topics like:
-NICU 101: Terms, diagnoses, and medical equipment explained.
-Preemie care basics and developmental milestones.
-How to advocate for your NICU baby with confidence.
-Emotional and trauma-informed support for NICU families.
-Insights from NICU professionals and families who’ve been there.
With episodes featuring expert advice, list-style guides, and real-life interviews, The NICU Translated Podcast is here to equip you with the tools and knowledge to make the NICU journey less overwhelming and more empowering.
Subscribe now and join our community dedicated to bringing more joy and less trauma to the NICU experience—because the NICU is only the beginning.
Let’s navigate this journey together.
Mary Farrelly (00:00)
Pumping in the NICU can feel like a full-time job layered on top of the most emotionally intense season of your life. It's time consuming, exhausting, and often deeply misunderstood. Yet it plays such a critical role in many NICU journeys. My guest today, Lisa Myers, understands this firsthand. Lisa is the founder of Ceres Chill, a company dedicated to protecting breast milk and supporting breastfeeding parents, especially those navigating work, medical complexity, and impossible logistics.
After struggling to meet her own breastfeeding goals while becoming a mom of two, advancing as an equity partner at an international law firm, and building a company from the ground up, Lisa turned her experience into advocacy and innovation. Today we're talking about pumping in the NICU, the systems that fail families, and how companies can step up to support NICU parents and staff, and why compassion and logistics matter just as much as education.
Mary Farrelly (01:20)
Hi, everybody. Welcome back to this week's episode of the NICU Translated Podcast. I'm so excited to have Lisa on the show today. Welcome, Lisa.
Lisa (01:27)
Thanks so much Mary. This is you and I go way back as we talked about just before we hopped on. But yeah, I I'm just really honored to be able to have a conversation with you about something that's so important to so many of our Ceres chill families and parents out there. So this is awesome.
Mary Farrelly (01:45)
So I would love for the audience to just to get to know you a little bit and then a little bit about Ceres Chill and like maybe just the vision behind the product.
Lisa (01:57)
Okay, so I think the first thing that I would like to get out of the way for everyone is that I'm the...
founder and CEO of Ceres Chill, which is a company that is really dedicated to helping parents, but that I am absolutely nothing special. I grew up on a farm in Washington state. I guess I'm special because I really think everything that moms do is pretty spectacular. I see some of the stuff that goes on in the world, ⁓ exclusively pumping moms, stay at home moms, NICU moms, and healthcare professionals who are also moms blows my mind. But ⁓ yeah,
I grew up on a farm. I had a bit of a career in politics on the East Coast. And then I went to law school at night while I worked full time. I ended up at an international law firm. And that was when I had my daughter. And then later I had my son. And it was all men. I worked with pretty much all men.
nice guys, but they didn't really understand the struggles of a working mom, that's for sure. Most of them have wives that stay at home and take care of the home and their kids, and they're out in the world working. So it's, you know, a lot of networking at like, you know, after work, happy hours and that. And so when you're a pumping mom or you're a primary caregiver, it's a real challenge to show up.
in the workplace that way, like kids, what kids? And also make sure that you're even safely getting milk home. And so when I started work.
With my daughter, unfortunately because of the challenges we faced with her birth, and lack of knowledge on my part, I started formula feeding right off the bat. And so my supply, I always had challenges providing breast milk for her with my son. I was determined to do better, went to work, had the pump, all the things, so proud of myself. I've got milk bottles lined up on my desk. And I'm like.
Now what do I do? Somehow I have to get through a day at work and get these home through a commute and I did not plan for this part. And so one of the women that worked in the firm overall, she came in, she's like, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm looking for the breast milk thermos thing. I need something to transport my milk. And she's like, I have no idea what you're talking about. I think you mean a cooler. And I'm like, I for sure don't mean a cooler.
Mary Farrelly (03:59)
great.
Lisa (04:27)
do not need another bag. I already am a hot mess. And these coolers last what six to eight hours and like, no, it's not even going to come close on a work trip. ⁓ And even a regular workday. And so basically, I was stubborn and angry enough that I
saw the chiller did not exist. There was absolutely nothing like it when I invented it back in 2019. And so I was determined to do better for moms because I knew what was out there was insufficient. And I was just outraged enough that I'm like, okay, if nobody else is going to do something about this, then I guess it's gonna have to be me. So yeah, that was the long short story of ⁓
the rage-fueled launch of this company.
Mary Farrelly (05:15)
I love a good
rage fueled launch. feel like my best ideas and biggest changes have been from a point of desperation. Even sorting the NICU translator came from a severe bout of post-partum depression and anxiety after my second daughter and being like, if it's this hard for me.
Lisa (05:25)
Ciao. ⁓
Mary Farrelly (05:34)
how impossible must this be for NICU families and being frustrated at the system and wanting to create something that was different. So I love that, that you're like, see the change and now I want to be the change. Cause it's one thing to see it and it's another thing to actually implement it. So for those of you that don't know about the product at all, that might be listening and be like, tell me more. It's funny cause I had my first daughter in 2019. So I did not have this product.
Lisa (05:46)
So. ⁓
Mary Farrelly (06:04)
as I was pumping at work, working 12, 14 hour days, the bag lady on the butt, like I literally accidentally knocked another nurse over turning around with my bag one time because I had so many bags and coolers and pump hearts and all the things. And then with my second daughter, it was the most different experience because I used the Ceres Chill products. So tell us a little bit about just like the logistics of what it is and how it works.
Lisa (06:18)
you
Okay, so.
First and foremost, would say it's a product for moms. It's like the one thing you can give to somebody at a baby shower, which everybody jokes is like the party you're required to be at that you need to look really great for where you get none of the presents and it's not really about you. I mean, it is, but it isn't. So yeah, Ceres Chill I always wanted it to be with moms in mind. mean, parents, it certainly helps caregivers like dads, nannies, in-laws who are taking the baby out.
Mary Farrelly (06:47)
I really nothing. ⁓
Lisa (07:03)
it was with women like you and I in mind, like women who were trying to do it all and the tools out there offered us no real option. So what I didn't want is for a mom to have to choose between how she wanted to nourish her baby, whether that was breastfeeding or formula or whatever, and then a paycheck and how she felt she had to show up at work. And coolers put us in that position, in my opinion. Sure, you could use the work fridge if you had access to one, but so many women in healthcare are like,
The hospital is like, no, we cannot have your random bodily fluids in our, you know, whether it's the staff like kitchen or it's a patient ⁓ bridge. like, you can't have your milk here. And so what, what are your choices? So the ⁓ four to six hours, six to eight hours with all the plastic, the extra bag. like, no.
Mary Farrelly (07:36)
Good.
Lisa (07:56)
That is a fail and I refuse. So the chiller is a thermos. looks like, well, I didn't want to call it a thermos. Cause I'm like, that's what you use when you go fishing with your granddad. So I call it a chiller because it's cooler, ⁓ literally and figuratively, but it's super, ⁓ it's tested, tested, tested, multiple independent labs. I care about it. All of our team uses it with their own kids and in their own life. So, ⁓ no lead, no toxins, and it hits all the standards.
that NICUs and hospitals are looking for. lots of doctors, lots of nurses, lots of women in healthcare use it, but also military families and service members. I'm really proud of the women that choose to use the chiller because they're just remarkable. But it's two chambers. There's a patent on it. Two chambers. You can freeze the inner chamber now. So if ice isn't convenient for you, you can freeze it. Just put water in. So there's no chemical freeze packs and there's no plastic that you're storing your milk in.
So it's all ⁓ FDA approved food grade stainless steel. This is very long. I can make it a lot more fun because very important Mary, I don't know if you've been able to use your chiller with for this, but you can chill up to 28 ounces of breast milk so you can pump directly into it. Everything you need to double pump is there so you can pump directly into it. Store the milk safely for 24 hours and if your shift goes long or your flight gets canceled or life happens, you can extend the time just by adding ice.
Mary Farrelly (09:04)
I'm into it.
Lisa (09:26)
just put ice in one of the chambers and then you're back in business for another 24 hours, which is just peace of mind. It's like, it's not the end of the world. You will have something to feed your baby even if everything else in the world falls apart. But what I was getting to is that.
because this is for moms, it is thought out until the end of time. So what I want is something that moms can be proud of, that can kind of fly under the radar. It looks like it's just another water bottle. We have the water bottle attachments. I'm drinking my tea out of mine today, but you can also chill an entire bottle of wine in less than 20 minutes without diluting it. Just in case that was something that you wanted to look forward to off in the distant future. But yeah, it's just me. I always, Mary and then
Mary Farrelly (10:01)
Yeah.
interesting.
Lisa (10:10)
I will stop talking, but my dream was always for a mom, to not think about contributing to a landfill with a beautiful product she has, but instead just have something with her as a memento of.
what an exceptional human she was. Like as a professional maybe, as someone in her community, and as a mom to be sitting on a beach somewhere watching like a six year old play in the surf and be drinking, you know, a daiquiri or ice cold water or coffee out of her chiller and like.
for that chiller to have seen her through, you know, six really challenging years, but to sit there and just watch that child, that healthy child play out in the water on some vacation and think, I did this. Like, I made these amazing things happen. And, know, little toast to herself as she sips whatever she likes out of the, you know, the vessel she used for her breast milk all those years ago.
Mary Farrelly (10:57)
and
my gosh, what a vision. I just like... ⁓
I've had those moments. remember like looking at my daughter when she was like six months old. And at that point we had been able to exclusively breastfeed to provide breast milk and looking at me like, I literally grew every piece of your body from the beginning until these fat rolls like you are that of me. that there was just this like mind blowing moment of like how incredibly cool our bodies like they're just amazing. But having that tangible token and also
Lisa (11:28)
Thank
Mary Farrelly (11:41)
just like one thing I was just talking with my friend group about is like the mental load of parenting too. And so one thing I also loved about it is it's just like it's truly like a system. Like it's all in one. It's just there. You don't have to like mix and match and piece and do all this stuff. It's streamlined and it's also aesthetically pleasing, which when you're in a room filled with like very, you know, brightly colored lights and the jungle thing with the pink monkey or all the other colors.
Lisa (12:10)
you
Mary Farrelly (12:11)
parenting, sometimes you just want to look at something that's pretty. That alone is really good.
Lisa (12:15)
Yeah, yeah, especially the very like,
⁓
like the only word I can think of is like visceral descriptions that you and then one of your clients Michelle who you interviewed described of what it's like to walk into that NICU and that like overwhelm and Like she said it was you know a low stimulation room So it's just like dark but all the machines and just to have like something solid to hold on to and now you can customize the chillers with whatever you want so lots of moms are putting their babies on it or like a verse from the Bible or some
like motivational, there's a really cute one of like a baby calf with a little heart on its head and a very funny little saying about ⁓ milk. But yeah, it's sweet. It's sweet. So but yeah, just something to disrupt that. ⁓ Or like being at work and trying to pump and you're like, why am I not creating enough milk? Well,
It's because your boss is on the other side of the door and you feel like you have to hurry up and like a letdown is really tricky when you just can't get in the right frame of mind.
Mary Farrelly (13:23)
Yeah,
it's that, you know, they talk about the mind gut connection. I was like, the mind boob connection is even very real. It's very real. So let's talk a little bit about the reality of pumping in the NICU. And I can chime in too with experience as a NICU nurse and NICU doula, but how in, and I know that your product has been integrated into many NICUs across the country too. So with your work integrating
Lisa (13:28)
It's real! ⁓
Mary Farrelly (13:52)
practicalities of pumping into the NICU. Let's just talk a little bit about like the logistics of NICU pumping. What makes that different than pumping at home or pumping even at work? Because there are like some nuances there and I'm happy to chime in too.
Lisa (14:05)
Yeah,
no, I would love for you to chime in stop me at any point because I could really get going. So I think that the challenges that NICU mom's face are like no other. So I would like to start by just acknowledging that so that moms can then
Understand what they're up against and be prepared to like overcome challenges because there's no point sugarcoating it and then you show up and you're like Am I the only one that can't make this happen? I think My understanding and you can I would love for you to talk about this but I think moms face challenges with supply like from the jump NICU moms because
Mary Farrelly (14:38)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (14:40)
that maybe it was a preterm labor and so their body wasn't really ready with the milk. Like at the drop of a hat, they're like, wait, I thought we had weeks before we needed to have colostrum or breast milk ready to go. And for me, I didn't, I ended up with a healthy full term baby. But I was in labor for 52 hours and then an emergency C-section.
and my milk and I also didn't have information so I felt that my milk had not come in she was crying she would not stop crying and I thought it was my fault that I wasn't producing milk what I didn't understand colostrum and I didn't understand all of this and my lactation consultant with my son years later was like she probably had a headache like I didn't even think about her experience at she's like there was probably so much going on for her
Mary Farrelly (15:25)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (15:30)
that had nothing to do with your breast milk. And so I begged the nurses, it was a baby friendly hospital where they weren't supposed to offer formula at all. But I was convincing, they gave me the little bottles of Similac that are always waiting for you. And...
you know, no real fault of their own. were trying to help me. I started formula feeding from the very first night. And then, you know, your supply, it's very hard for your body to understand the demand. And she went right to sleep because she had a full belly. And so was like, I was right. I didn't make enough milk. That was my fault. My failing as a mom already in that moment, I was like, okay, well, I need formula and formula is fine. And it is.
Mary Farrelly (15:59)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (16:14)
But for medically fragile babies, think moms face a lot of challenges getting their milk to come in, having it available to their babies when they need it, which is so soon after birth and they're offered formula and formula can be exceptionally risky for medically fragile infants. And I know that I feel comfortable saying it because I'm on the board of the NEC (Necrotizing enterocolitis) society, is ⁓ NEC is something terrible for ⁓ NICU.
providers to face but for those parents and for those babies. so, and then there's a million other things that can come from formula use in a NICU setting. So my whole mission now having solved the problem of storage for so many moms is to make sure that
all parents know the importance of donor milk whether they could choose and how rewarding that is with every ounce they can donate, or for parents like me and NICU moms milk right up front or to be able to ask for it if they're not offered that milk. I would have loved on a breast milk path, whether it's donor milk or their own, then they con
path and I think things would have been very different for me and my family had that been presented as an option. I didn't even know it was until I started the company. So gosh, I just keep talking, but I'd love for you to weigh in on the specific challenges that that NICU parents face because I don't know about that firsthand. I can only imagine and then it's like what I've learned from like clinical research and speaking with NICU nurses and doctors.
Mary Farrelly (17:58)
Yeah.
So you brought up several really, really important points. I think I will like take them one at a time. So my first one is like the physiologic reality of delivering either via emergent or traumatic birth and or preterm delivery because
Lisa (18:16)
Thank
Mary Farrelly (18:17)
in order
Lisa (18:17)
you.
Mary Farrelly (18:17)
to have like your body to be able to produce milk, there has to be like the other parts of your body have to be physiologically safe, right? You have to have a heart that's functioning, your adrenals have to work, you have to have lungs that are doing the things. So your body's gonna be like, you're in crisis, we might not be ready to produce milk yet, which can sometimes be exacerbated by other environmental challenges, but sometimes it is simply like there's a real physiologic.
Not like kind of rewriting that needs to happen.
typical milk production could happen. But then there's also the environment. So many families are giving birth. Their babies are being physically separated them to the NICU. So you're not having that initial golden hour breast crawl, oxytocin moment where there's like this bonding and connection and reattachment. And then also families might be like, OK, my intent is to breastfeed. But then they don't realize also often from education, other things that are going on. They're so like, I need to go to the NICU right now. There's this window of time
where
pumping needs to be established in order for the long-term supply, those like railroad tracks to be kind of laid so that the train can come later on. So the number of times that I've had families, especially those that babies are not born in house, they may be transferred from outside hospitals, come to the NICU, it's now 24, 48 hours later, and I'm like, okay, do you plan on breastfeeding? Are you hoping to produce milk? And they're like, yeah, absolutely. And I'm like, okay, great, like when is the last time you pumped? And they're like, no one's ever set up a pump for me. I had no idea.
Lisa (19:45)
Yeah.
Mary Farrelly (19:46)
It was just not the priority. They, NICU families just flip into fight or flight mode, right? And they're like in crisis.
And so everything else just kind of whooshes out the windows. It's about the baby in the moment, which is appropriate. But unless you have people in your environment that are helping to support tangible early breastfeeding experiences and pumping experiences, it's going to, it makes it challenging. Not impossible, but challenging to get it back. And the other reality is that most NICU babies, at least for the first bit of time, sometimes extended period of time, are NPO, which is nothing by mouse. So they're not able to directly drink milk.
Lisa (20:19)
Thank you.
Mary Farrelly (20:21)
any type of milk. They're often either fed just via IV fluid or by a feeding tube. So there's not as much opportunity for positioning skin-to-skin contact, again, depending on the acuity of the baby. So there's so many factors at play, and sometimes families who don't realize these factors are happening, then when it's a week later and they're only, they think they're, quote, only producing X amount of milk,
they complain themselves or like be like my body's failing again or what other crazy narratives that we tell ourselves especially as NICU families. So then it just perpetuates this stress cycle and can go from there. And then there's the...
the lived reality of being an exclusive pumper in a new environment. You're typically, depending on the room that you're in, you're likely going back and forth from somewhere, whether it's home or Ronald McDonald House. So you might have pump parts in your house, pump parts in your car, pump parts at the bedside. You're trying to transport your milk from place to place. And it's just hard. It's really hard sometimes. And so families sometimes just...
You know, like the burden of pumping is the benefit. The risk is outweighing the benefit at that point, so they'll stop. But having something that makes it streamlined, like a chiller and like also is like the resources, the product mixed with education support. That's where the magic happens in producing milk. And the AAP guidelines that came out about...
maybe five or so years ago, change so that any infant born less than 32 weeks or uniquely fragile, the gold standard is to offer human milk, whether it's donated or pumped or expressed from the birthing person. But it makes it, then you get sometimes into this gray area for those babies that are a little bit bigger, but not quite.
Also, like, you know, as well as a typical baby too, when it comes to what's being offered. But I would say that donor milk is the secrets. There's two like secret sauces, in my opinion, of NICU. Well, not two, there's more. But it's skin to skin and donor milk. And those are two things that have changed a lot since I've been a NICU nurse as well for the last 13 years is realizing the power of both. So I wanted to talk a little bit about donor milk and
from both ends. Sometimes in the courses that I've taught, we talk a lot about the benefits of donor milk for NICU babies, especially as you mentioned, one of the NICU nurses' worst nightmare is NEC, which is Necrotizing Enterocolitis for those who ⁓ have the pleasure of not knowing what that is. Because it is a very intense and scary disease process that is ⁓
Lisa (22:49)
Yeah.
Mary Farrelly (23:02)
By having human milk, you're not preventing that entirely, but it decreases the risk of NEC. But one of the things that we do for families
not willing to produce breast milk is donor milk.
but also what are the benefits of donating milk too, right? Like there's so many layers to this. Donation ⁓ of milk, especially to NICUs and preemies is so complex and exciting too. So I would love for you to share a little bit about your understanding and your knowledge and your support of the milk donation process through Ceres Chill.
Lisa (23:36)
Yeah,
yeah, I like I said now that it was so great to have a mission of helping all moms all over the world and then realizing the huge impact we could have on literally saving babies and empowering so many moms to be superheroes to save many babies with the milk they donate and and to and to save those families so much stress and mourning.
either just by preventing disease or helping babies overcome disease by offering their own milk donated. So we have a Hero donor program. ⁓ So parents they get a special chiller.
I should have one with the ⁓ with this beautiful design that one of our NICU moms came up with but of a donor and a mother like a mother bottle feeding and the donor you know with the pump and anyway it's a special engraving that's on our our hero donor mom.
chillers and you get a chiller and you get the demigoddess to make that milk donation process easier and also celebrate what an exceptional person you are for doing something so selfless because it does it's you're liquefying your body to save someone else at pain and suffering. I don't think there's any other way to describe it and so
Mary Farrelly (24:51)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (24:59)
Yeah, I'm really proud of that program. But also the recipients are so exceptionally grateful and it changes their life and their outlook. And even for me with full term babies, benefiting from donor milk is a really big deal because it can set you on a path for really showing up for yourself and your family in a way that you thought you couldn't and supporting another parent through that is incredible. I would say that
Like in the NICU setting, think another challenge that parents face, and I hate to even.
say this, but it's just the truth is that it is a massive inconvenience. And it's an additional many steps that that team has to take to support you in pumping and feeding an infant's breast milk, your mom's own milk or donor milk. And so you may face a lot of challenges. A lot of the NICU parents that we've worked with and spoke to had staff that was just like, we have formula for a reason and it works. Like we
Mary Farrelly (25:43)
you
Lisa (26:05)
know the calories your baby needs and at least we know what calories are in this. We have no idea what's in your milk. Please stop with your talk about pumping and like please stop inconveniencing us with the milk you show up with every day because we have no fridge for it and we're so over this. Like let us get to the real work of saving your baby and let's stop this nonsense about breast milk. But it's not nonsense. As you said, the AAP changed their regulations for good reason and there's actually been litigation against formula
Mary Farrelly (26:17)
mhmm
Lisa (26:35)
companies for not having a warning on their formula that says this does increase the risk of certain terrible diseases in medically fragile or preterm infants. And then I also really want to ⁓ acknowledge the exceptional selflessness of
parents who lose an infant and choose to donate. The milk banks that we work with are filled with some of the most beautiful human beings that walk the earth and they show up for those parents ⁓ who want to donate. So many of NICU parents, because they get it and they understand what donor milk means for those families, they find a way to increase their supply. I hope this is inspirational for parents who have struggled, but they, with someone on our team, Stephanie is so incredible, her daughter,
had multiple open heart surgeries, multiple surgeries to like fix valve issues and she's so healthy now. She is two and she's like thriving but Stephanie was able she first had to rely on donor milk and then she built her supply up and then she was able to donate 850 ounces which is huge that for those babies with those tiny stomachs that is saving many many many many babies but ⁓
bereaved mothers, mothers who have experienced loss. So many of them are in the NICU and what's really beautiful is when they're presented with the information and they have a moment to take a breath and then they donate their milk often in honor of the child they lost. And that baby's legacy is then some of the most beautiful milk that can be offered because that's early milk. So colostrum and like that real, real liquid gold. And then those babies, ⁓
Have
different ways that they're commemorated in the milk banks that receive the milk. So the UC Milk Bank is pretty much the gold standard in the world for milk banking and ⁓ they have little cherry blossoms on a beautiful tree and each of those cherry blossoms represents a baby that was honored by their mother's milk donation. So yeah, it's really, it's ⁓ exceptional to meet these moms and to meet the moms and the babies that benefited from that milk.
like
nothing else. It's like, I feel like it's like blood donation, but like taken up to this whole other level because it's helping the most fragile and challenged and beautiful, innocent members of our communities. It's the best.
Mary Farrelly (29:10)
Yeah,
one of the most powerful things sometimes, even on those hard days when I was at the bedside and like, what is going on? Like, this is so hard, what am I doing? ⁓ Sometimes when you take a step back and remember the ripple effect, right? Like, it's not just a drop of milk, it's not just a baby. That baby grows up and has a family and takes a place in the world and the ripple effects that come from quality.
human NICU care is just, it's really beautiful to imagine.
how wide of an impact that just that's what simple act that selfless act of of donating milk and creating a legacy what it can do to change your life and you may not similar to donating blood or donating you know even organs and those sentences you may not know exactly how the impact is there but you know it's there you know not be able to see a face but sometimes just having that that feeling of community and that that really sends that you're you're a human to care for human there's I think there's nothing that can replace that
that feeling when you really get down to the core of it. ⁓ And that's what makes the work so beautiful too.
Lisa (30:21)
Yeah, yeah. And the milk bank work that gets done. Like I said, they have the highest standards for keeping milk safe. really, I mean, the pasteurization process, it's all overseen. I believe it's the FDA that constantly is coming in. It is more seen. ⁓ Kim Upgrove, who is the ⁓ executive director for the Austin Milk Bank, which was one of the first milk banks, those pediatricians saw so much NEC. They were like,
we and they saw the link between formula and NEC, and they're like, we are going to do something about this. But she talks about how there are much more higher safeguards in place and oversight for donor milk than there is for formula.
Mary Farrelly (31:01)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (31:01)
So what that
says about whether there should be fewer safeguards for donor milk, you know, I, everybody would argue no, but it is so safe. I think there's like, for some people there's an ick factor just because we're not familiar. But, ⁓ yeah, I think donating milk is so selfless and accepting that help that donor milk. I wish I would have had that option. ⁓ it would have changed. know it would have changed the journey for me. And then also once you know about it, then you can offer it like.
Mary Farrelly (31:13)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (31:31)
maybe my supply would have different because I would have known I would have made an effort to pump more often and then I could have donated. It all Like you said has a ripple effect. So to the extent that we can be part of that moms can go on our website and they can nominate themselves as a hero mom like because they made it as ⁓ with their their little one as a NICU warrior or they can nominate themselves as a milk donor hero and ⁓ and you can get access to the chillers at a massive massive
discount. We're not allowed to give them away. I would love to, but you can't incentivize donor milk in that way. So we just want to support NICU families and the amazing people, women, moms that are donating. So yeah.
Mary Farrelly (32:17)
It's just...
One of the things to make a hard thing happen is to make it easier, right? To make it, to streamline the process, to bring some more joy to something that can feel a little bit mundane and tasky as pumping can be sometimes. the volume is a little monotonous and it can, it just keeps happening over and over again. It just keeps coming. Just when you feel like you're done, it's time again. So the more that we can do to bring like joy
Lisa (32:34)
Yes!
Mary Farrelly (32:48)
ease to the process is just such a gift.
Lisa (32:52)
Yeah, and inspiration.
Mary Farrelly (32:58)
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Lisa (33:40)
do want to bring
up I for the NICU families facing challenges and we don't have to spend too long on this because they all know. But and maybe this is like TMI, but the same.
chemicals that your body releases the same, ⁓ know, all the hormones, that whole reaction that happens to produce a letdown is very similar, if not almost identical to an orgasm. And so when you think about being in a NICU setting and that overwhelm and that fight or flight that you're experiencing, and you're just trying to regulate your breath for heaven sakes, like then trying to like get to a point where you can pump, it can be challenging and the same at work if you're, if you
you graduate from the NICU and your baby's back home and you think you're out of the woods and then you get to work and your supply drops again and you're like, how am I gonna do this? It's just if you can give yourself grace and take a breath and lean into donor milk or supplement with formula if you have to, but to know what your body needs to get to the point where you can allow that milk to flow and show up for your baby and yourself, it's challenging in those settings, that's for sure.
It's.
Mary Farrelly (34:52)
It really is.
sometimes we also need permission to know you're doing the best you can in the situation that you're in. you are equally as important and your body is equally as important as that of your baby. So like if you need a break, if you need a nap, if you haven't eaten, if you feel sick, like read your own body, read your own cues. There's a difference between being incredibly present and
Lisa (35:02)
Yeah.
Mary Farrelly (35:21)
meaningful mother and a martyr, right? Like there's a fine line and we all walk it every day, feel like. Yep. But especially in the NICU setting, I see so many NICU families like...
Lisa (35:27)
over back and forth in any given moment.
Mary Farrelly (35:36)
drain themselves dry, literally, to the point of them needing to be rehospitalized or not being able to show up for their baby in the way that they want to because no one, it's one thing to say, take care of yourself, but no one is there to take care of them in the same way that they're trying to take care of their baby too. So that's one of the big culture shifts and the ways that I want to impact NICU families is through the role of the NICU Doula, being able to care for the family, help with pumping, set it up, make sure you're fed and cared for so then they can show up.
Lisa (35:50)
Yeah.
Thank
Mary Farrelly (36:05)
for their baby
Lisa (36:06)
you.
Mary Farrelly (36:06)
in this really weird world that is the NICU and feel maybe a little bit like they're thriving and not just surviving because that is another kind of edge that NICU families can kind of wobble between is this feeling of like, okay, we're just getting through this and there is opportunity.
Lisa (36:15)
you
Mary Farrelly (36:27)
not every day, but to find more joy and to find that feeling of like, that deep breath, those micro moments of calm and peace. And sometimes that is pumping for families. is that moment to step away, to shut the curtain, to shut the door, to put the headphones in, whatever it is, and to find your moment that's just you. Like even on my shifts as a nurse, I mean, people, you you would always hear those snide comments being like, you're gonna go pumping in, must be nice. I'm like, ⁓ yeah, it's so nice.
Yeah, yeah,
Lisa (36:57)
It's nice like maternity leave is a vacation and it's like yeah, uh-huh. My smoke break again. I forgot.
Mary Farrelly (37:05)
and I'm lugging myself up a flight of stairs and setting it up and doing all these but also I tried as much as I could to take what I could out of each moment and find my moment of Zen it might be very short but in order to like
almost as a way to honor myself for the role and the work that, the real work that kept going. So I think that for some NICU families, there's a way to, kind of like say to make pumping suck less, But do you have any, like what are my favorite things to make pumping, one is like make it easier for yourself, right? Like pack a bag, have all your supplies in there, have snacks, have goodies. If someone asks you how you can help, you can say, make my pumping bag filled with snacks again, like fill up my water bottle.
Lisa (37:31)
That's perfect, yep.
Mary Farrelly (37:50)
And then the other is like, I would save something. Yeah, exactly. Like, make this easy and then I just show up and do the bit and then you clean the parts also. That was the other thing is I would hand it back and be like, I'm not cleaning any of this. Thank you. I made it. You clean it.
Lisa (37:50)
Yeah, get some ice in my chiller. Like somebody do something.
Yeah.
Ceres Chill
safe. I'm just saying. And you can sterilize it if you have that medically fragile baby. But I was trying to think of all the moms. I'm like, dishwasher safe. That's fundamental. Yep.
Mary Farrelly (38:15)
gotta do it. Game-changing,
game-changing. But the other thing I would do is save like something that brought me joy, whether it was a podcast or I always, I usually had like some type of mindless TV show that I watched five minutes of and I would only watch it during pumping, so it felt better too. do you have any any tips or tricks or things that people have brought to you that have made beyond using the Ceres Chill, but beyond, that brought like maybe a little bit more joy and peace to each pumping session? Just curious.
Lisa (38:42)
Yeah, yeah, I do. It was like the first IBCLC I worked with and it's along the lines of what you said. Like you are as important as your infant and I think we totally lose sight of that.
almost every day, but definitely in the beginning. ⁓ what she said to me, and she was this like very like not elderly, but older wise woman. She felt like a hedge witch to me. And she had been a lactation consultant on military bases all over the world, supporting families when she was ⁓ when she was stationed there with her family. And she said my son had a tongue tie. And so he would chomp on my breast to nurse like
Just let it get it in there and then just like hold on by like gripping it And so she's like that toe curling pain I see you're in is that just at the beginning or is that the whole time and I'm like? whole time it's whole time and she said okay, well we're gonna figure this out and
your comfort and the pain that you're in is just as much of a consideration as whether or not he's getting what he needs because my pediatrician is like, he's get he's gaining weight, you're doing great. Like, and if it's too much for you, you can always do formula and it so it feels so selfish, right? And I'm like, well, what about getting his tongue tie release, which is a different podcast you have, but he did get it and it changed our world. And she was like, well, if it's about your discomfort, I mean, I don't recommend
Mary Farrelly (40:01)
Right.
Lisa (40:17)
surgeries on infants when they're unnecessary, but if it's about you breastfeeding them like ⁓ So we're doubling down on my guilt, but yeah, so anyway We got his tongue tie release and at that age like just a couple weeks They're like puppies right their eyes are barely open They barely respond to stimuli and I just remember they put him to my breast to nurse after because of the you know the hormones everything like and it's healing breast milk is so healing and That little baby that barely responded
to anything, his eye shot open and he like looks at me, milk is pouring out of his mouth. Like he, I didn't realize how hard he had been working to get what he needed. And so being able to have that tongue release, like it made such a difference for both of us. So what she said is if you can just give him.
Mary Farrelly (40:57)
Okay.
Lisa (41:08)
one ounce a day, you are changing everything for him. And that's the truth. Like the science shows it. Like the microbiome of their bellies and all that magic that's in breast milk, how it's specifically tailored to your baby. And it has all the best bacteria in it that ⁓ it's like one ounce a day is such a huge deal. And hearing that from her, I thought, wow, I bet I can do one ounce a day. Like I bet I could do that. Like I, yeah, I'll try.
If you had said to me like, okay, so over the course of the recommended breastfeeding period, your son is going to consume, you know, 9,365 ounces, like, and you start today, I'd be like, you know what, I'm out. I am good. This is where we call it quits. We tried ⁓ for a couple days in, but I hear formula is an awesome option. And that's what we're doing. I ended up breastfeeding him for two years, which is now what the AAP recommends, which is so
Mary Farrelly (41:50)
Yeah. Nice. ⁓
Lisa (42:07)
overwhelming for parents. But when you think in terms of like if I can do one ounce today and give it a shot tomorrow, you'd be surprised how how how you managed to get to two years. All of a sudden you look around and you're like this little stingray needs to be weaned. We need to like get on with this. So yeah that was really great. And then to your point about finding something to treat yourself and honor yourself and have a moment for yourself when you're doing something selfless. There are so many
Mary Farrelly (42:22)
Yep.
Lisa (42:37)
of moms who say, still like feel like I get a letdown when I hear ⁓ the opening song to the Gilmore Girls. Because like they would like sit down with their favorite show and they're like, I hear the Gilmore Girls and I swear I start lactating again.
Mary Farrelly (42:48)
Good evening.
That's very
well. show for my second daughter was Love is Blind. high quality TV. yeah, definitely, I immediately I'll like sit down for a current episode and like my brain will for a minute like transform back to sitting down and putting my stuff out on the table and having a little snack and go right back. Better for better for worse. There's parts of it that way.
Lisa (43:22)
you ⁓
Mary Farrelly (43:23)
that live in that area
and others that are still really sacred and really special to reflecting on too. I also, love, and this is especially important in the NICU, we kind of say like, you know, you really gotta take it day by day in the NICU. Like you can try to ask, you know, when is my baby gonna go home or what is the diagnosis gonna mean for them when they're five? And we, the short answers, we simply do not know. Like every baby, babies don't know what the rules are, they don't know statistics, they do not care about them. They are their own story and we're along for the ride.
And so similar thing with breastfeeding. There's things that we can influence and impact, but we cannot control it, right? We cannot control our supply. We can control what everything feels like. We can influence it. We can have moments of like, dirty around that, but making sure that we have this feeling that...
Lisa (44:03)
you ⁓
Yeah.
you
Mary Farrelly (44:15)
We don't have to figure it out. We don't have to say, I'm going to breastfeed for two years. We can say, I'm going to breastfeed today. I'm going to pump today. I'm going to, for my second time, I like, I'm going to reevaluate this every Saturday. Like I'm going to give myself a week and every Saturday I'd be like, yeah.
Lisa (44:22)
Yeah.
Mary Farrelly (44:30)
I can do it another week, yeah, I can do it another week. But with my first daughter, was like, gotta make it a year, gotta do it a year. And it was so overwhelming. So just shifting it to be like, you don't have to commit to this. You're not signing a contract. And every little bit counts. Right.
Lisa (44:43)
Yeah, and you're not failing if you don't get to wherever
you imagine you had to be to be a good mom.
Mary Farrelly (44:51)
Yes, yes, we're doing the best we can in situation that we're in.
So one other quick thing I had, I know if we're one of the things that NICU families really hone in on and that is really emphasizing the NICU around pumping is safe and proper milk storage and handling. Because one of the factors that is at play, like we don't know exactly all the different things that can cause NEC or Necrotizing enterocolitis, but one is potentially like it's to be like an overgrowth of bacteria in the gut. And sometimes that could be linked to improper handling of milk or where, you know, milk is beautiful.
and has all this good bacteria, but if it's stored improperly, can lead to overgrowth, the stuff we don't want. So how does Ceres Chill make sure that the milk is safe? And what does that mean in the NICU? Like the super strict, strict rules about milk storage in the NICU. How does that gonna play in? For those that are pondering it and be like, I just have this one question, because this is always gonna be it.
Lisa (45:48)
Yeah,
it is. It is. that's like, and that is why it's so great to have a customer service team and like all of the moms that participate in social media. So many of them are NICU moms who use the chiller when they were going back and forth to the NICU. And so they know they have been there. They have felt the pressure ⁓ and had all of that constant stress and worry. So, ⁓
Mary Farrelly (45:58)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (46:10)
What I will say is that the chiller's been tested to death. We test it thermodynamics, we test all the materials. Each run is tested. We are constantly testing to make sure that it complies, meets, and exceeds the standards. So all the materials are safe. There's no lead. Other options out there now, ⁓ they took the cheaper route and there's lead. It's usually in the bottom. It's not touching the milk. But for me, I don't want lead anywhere near anything for my kids. That's just me.
⁓ for milk storage. So the Academy of Breastfeeding Medicine.
and the CDC and the AAP, Academy of Pediatrics, they all have their guidelines. They are very similar, but often not identical, which is stressful for parents who are like, just give me the answer. Like, why don't we have the answer? And the answer, unfortunately, is only the answers are becoming available to us. But breast milk was not studied up until COVID. Really, there were no studies of breast milk. Yeah, it was
There was more ⁓ this amazing Dr. Hinde, she speaks about this. She has a whole TED Talk if you search for her. she said there was more articles about the benefits of tomato sauce and ⁓ red wine and the medications and holistic. ⁓
opportunities for ⁓ erectile dysfunction all of those individually then the entire history of research of breast milk combined and she's like and it's our first food as humans whether you're in Uganda or the Bronx like Ideally that is what's being offered at first. So ⁓ yeah, I the the the ⁓ Guidelines are shifty and hard to pin down but overall
what I would like is for parents to not obsess about them because that can really like get in the way of you being successful breastfeeding. Follow what your care your ⁓ your care team tells you. They will probably have very strict guidelines. The chiller can be sterilized ⁓ using boiling water on the steel parts and then also ⁓ the the platinum silicone and the upper plastic parts. So all of that can be sterilized to the standards that your hospital
Mary Farrelly (48:19)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (48:40)
is asking for breast milk can typically sit out at room temperature newly expressed breast milk that's key for four to six hours. ⁓ All NICUs are gonna be they're gonna lean I'm sure on the shorter side of everything. There are countries I will tell you in the world that leave breast milk out all day and night and no one's dying. It's a lot like in the US we refrigerate our eggs but in the US they they're like put them in the fridge like why would you do such a thing? So
Mary Farrelly (48:48)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Lisa (49:10)
Breast milk is exceptionally powerful. It is not like any other food because it's alive. The cells are alive. So the guidelines initially were set for food, regular food handling. And that was because it was a bunch of, I'm just going to say it, old guys in lab coats that didn't want to take any risks and they didn't really care if it was a burden on
the mom. It's like if you want to breastfeed, here's the deal. You need to refrigerate your milk after four hours or suffer the consequences of a dead baby or whatever they were threatened with. And it can only stay in the fridge for four days is typically the guideline, right, Mary? Yeah.
Mary Farrelly (49:43)
Great.
Yep, 96 hours.
Lisa (49:52)
Yep, and then and then you can keep it in the freezer for six months to a year depending on where it's stored in the freezer. Now they say that that's silliness too, but you always want to be storing it as close to the back as possible. Whether it's a deep freezer in the bottoms great in the back of the freezer rather than being in the door of the fridge So it's just not getting constantly exposed to warmer air, but you want it stored it. So for coolers and chillers,
for 24 hours up to 59 degrees according to the Academy of Breastfeeding Medicine. At room temperature for four to six hours and then up to four days in the fridge and then six months to a year in the freezer. There's so many families that are like I have a stash though and we're now at 367 days I guess it's all garbage.
No. No, that's insane. Your milk does not have a calendar. It is not paying attention. It's just the nutritional values does start to degrade. So I am definitely not giving anyone medical advice. I'm going to ask that you do a better job with the guidelines, Mary. But I think that when we make parents obsess about rules and we like say if you don't do it precisely,
Mary Farrelly (50:53)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (51:09)
like this, you are putting your baby at risk, that is an unfair burden and that is not accurate with something as magical as breast milk because it is alive and it has good bacteria that is fighting bad bacteria. So listen to your care team, but also like apply common sense and breast milk should never be thrown away. I will say it can be used in baths. ⁓ You can use it in your husband's coffee if you think he's getting sick.
Mary Farrelly (51:32)
more.
Lisa (51:38)
Maybe with his
Mary Farrelly (51:38)
Want that?
Lisa (51:38)
permission. ⁓ But yeah, there are a lot of people that are like, man, when my kids start to get the sniffles and daycare, we're all gonna get a dose of mom's milk. Like everybody's getting it in their cereal, in their, you know, in with their like cow's milk. And so it's quite funny, but it is pretty darn magical. And it's best not to get overwhelmed by the rules.
Mary Farrelly (51:59)
Yeah, I agree. think every, and also as you said, there's, the fact that there is no one guiding standard not only echoes the fact that there's so much more research that needs to be done, but also shows that we don't really know, right? Like, and NICUs especially are going to err on the side of caution, especially for your extremely low birth weight, very, very high risk infants because they simply not only,
Lisa (52:10)
out.
Mary Farrelly (52:25)
returning on a GI system that's not supposed to be on, right? Like it's not designed to be at that point. So it doesn't have the same capacity for tolerating milk at any level, whether it's breast milk or donor milk. And sometimes there's start and stopping and all the things there too. ⁓ But also like it has to be practical too. Like you have to be able to think about
Lisa (52:28)
Yeah.
Mary Farrelly (52:46)
I always bring it back to the brain model. What are the benefits? What are the risks? All the alternatives. What does your intuition say? What does your gut say about this? ⁓
There are rules in the NICU, but in general, they're supposed to be, I like the Morris guidelines and everybody's life and everybody's babies and everybody's stories and needs and logistics are different. And so there is no one size fits all in any scenario, but being thoughtful and mindful about what works for you and for your baby and being able to make that informed decision with the information that you need to make choices around different types of care and storage and things like that too. So that goes with any decision in the
NICU
You always want to make sure that you're doing what's right for you and your family. ⁓ not experts are there to guide you with knowledge and information, but they don't know you and they don't know your story and they don't know your values and your goals and your dreams. And it can be really overwhelming as a NICU family to feel like to have to advocate, but ⁓ it is an incredible part of the NICU story is building this like ability to
Lisa (53:30)
you
Mary Farrelly (53:56)
parent your child regardless of where they are and their story.
Lisa (54:00)
Yeah.
And if you can hold them or you're still parenting them, you're still showing up. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a great way to look at it. I love the way you said it because it's the truth. And parents should be telling themselves that because they are remarkable. Yeah. And the.
the chiller to the extent that it could help any NICU parents, mean, using it at the bedside if you're able to passively collect milk and then taking it to the NICU. And like you said, being in a Ronald McDonald house or a hotel, you don't necessarily have safe storage options. I would say that.
Hotel fridges are usually not the best place to store your breast milk and hotels often are reluctant to give you access to their kitchen fridge for all the reasons you might imagine. And a lot of moms don't want their milk to be out of their sight for good reason. So yeah, I, you know that.
Mary Farrelly (54:44)
Yeah.
Great.
Lisa (54:53)
Ceres Chill is really about the community we've created and our ability to help moms totally regardless of whether or not they have any of our products. But to the extent that only in like knowing moms like you and the impact the chiller have had, would I want to even say this, but like. ⁓
you know, I would love to be able to offer like the community you've created a discount. We've worked together before. if that's something you would want to
put in the show notes,
and then parents can always reach out to us for advice. We are not going to sell you a chiller if you don't need one. If we think that we can help you, we will tell you that. But yeah, these are moms that have been through it and they are happy to talk about their own experiences.
and what worked for them and what didn't. So yeah, I would love to show up for the community you've created, Mary, because I love listening to your podcasts. I just feel like I get, I feel so empowered and there's always so much hope.
Mary Farrelly (55:44)
Yo.
Lisa (55:51)
the challenges that NICU parents face are exceptional. But even with those moms, those bereaved mothers who experienced loss, like learn about their experience through milk donation and how they help other NICU families. It's, it feels like NICU families are just the most, some of the most resilient and selfless people that I've, I've ever had the privilege to know.
Mary Farrelly (56:12)
It's true, you
walk through the fire and who they are on the other side is just, they're fierce. Fierce advocates, fierce families, and always craving and trying to give back to. Like, that's the most incredible part of the NICU community is that...
Once the dust is settled and you're able to like see the impact that you have in your life, the first thing that most NICU families do is they turn around to who's in the trenches right now and how can I help them? So I am just so grateful to have met you and have Ceres Chill be a sponsor the NICU Translated podcast and how our lives have interacted like inadvertently and not at all throughout this time. So I'm just so honored to have you as a guest on the show and to be able to share ⁓ about your incredible mission and work.
Lisa (56:39)
Yeah.
Mary Farrelly (56:58)
just who you are as a person. You're just a lovely light and I'm just honored to have met you.
Lisa (57:03)
Very real, that's what I always bring, Mary, is I don't mince words and when the world isn't fair, you can count on me to be out there like shaking my fist alongside a lot of other exceptional moms. So yeah, it's nice to be part of what you're doing. Nice is an understatement. It's just exceptional to be able to have these conversations and to work with you to find ways that we can do more.
Mary Farrelly (57:28)
Thank you and for those of you that listening and are interested in Exploring the different products that are available because it's not just the chiller too There's some really cool stuff that you guys keep inventing and and bringing out into the world I just I love I love the products I just I truly do they're so innovative and interesting but I will put the links in the show notes below and a discount code and If there is there anything else that you wanted to share before we sign off for today either to NICU families or about ⁓
different ways that Ceres Show can help support them.
Lisa (57:59)
No, just that if they have any ideas about how I can do a better job showing up for them based on their experience. ⁓
I really hope they won't hesitate to reach out and let me know. My contact information will be in the show notes and some of the very best products that we've created have been because we've had conversations with moms who are like, you know what? I'm really missing now. And it's like, okay. And supporting your moms, if they have an invention or they have something that they want to bring into the world, I've been through the process. I didn't know what the heck I was doing, but somehow I ended up here. So if I can support them as NICU parents or
entrepreneurs and inventors, I would be happy to be available.
Mary Farrelly (58:43)
Thank you so much for
being on the show today and I can't wait to talk again soon.
Lisa (58:48)
Sounds good. Thanks, Mary.