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Chasing the Game: Youth Soccer in America is a weekly podcast for soccer parents, coaches, and players who want to understand how youth soccer development really works in the United States.
Hosted by two dads, filmmaker Liron Unreich and investor Matt Tartaglia, the show covers everything from grassroots soccer to elite pathways like MLS NEXT and ECNL. Combining data, real experience, and expert insights from academy directors, college coaches, and former pros, each episode explains what families truly need to know.
Weekly episodes focus on the core aspects of youth soccer: player development, coaching culture, college recruiting, tryouts, travel costs, and the challenges of parenting in youth sports in today’s competitive environment.
For families navigating youth soccer’s complex system, Chasing the Game offers practical advice, credible voices, and relatable stories from two dads working to make sense of American player development, one episode at a time.
What does a youth soccer coach actually do?
Not what we see from the sideline, the whistles, the cones, the lineup.
not the instructions we hear during the game or don't hear.
I mean, that's the part most of us parents never see or understand.
It's the planning, decisions, conversations, parents' questions.
I can't even imagine the pressure, the hours, all that put in.
So to answer these very difficult questions, I decided to bring in the big guns today.
So Pat Okama is joining us and chasing the game to try to help us out.
Yeah, I appreciate being back again as a guest host.
ah Now to your point, can look very simple from the outside of the ball's rolling, the
cones are out there, but there's hours of planning and there's a lot of discussions
amongst the staff.
A lot of work goes into every session, every match you see that might not be evident from
the outside.
Yeah, and speaking of big guns, uh Pat was gracious enough to introduce us to Phil Gordon,
straight from Nottingham Forest.
Phil coached across the whole American system, Orlando City, DC United, men's game,
women's game, youth academies, you name it.
Really, really good conversation about uh English players, American players, what the
pathway looks like uh both professionally, what the academic roots look like as well.
Yeah, and you know, uh Patrick, this episode is actually a really simple one.
It's about the people who are trying to create the best environment for our kids.
And you've always done that your whole life.
it's the sometimes with more resources, sometimes with less, not the glamorous work,
right?
Just could be packing back, cleaning boots, whatever.
So this is Chase in the Game, cleaning boots for your kids, youth soccer in America.
Let's go.
Liron: Phil, welcome to Chasing the Game.
Your, uh, journey through Orlando City,
DC United, men's game, women's game, uh,
U.S. Soccer education, UEFA education, and
now the big leagues, Nottingham Forest.
So before we get a little bit into
the obvious U.S. versus Europe,
England, which is really all our
parents wanna hear is how much it is
better in England than it is here.
So before we do that, can you
talk a little bit about just
coaching in the American system,
how you got to where you got?
'Cause obviously you're not American, but
you went through the system and then, back
into, the English academy environment.
Phil: yeah, moved to, moved
to America at the age of 19 to
come and play college soccer.
started coaching almost right
away while, while I was playing.
Carried on all the way through and,
and as you mentioned, just found my way
through almost every level of the game.
Liron: All right.
Okay.
Patrick, go ahead.
what, the moment you waited for.
Pat: start the hardball questions.
you're usually taking a course,
you're usually working up, uh, keeping
your options open and, and building
towards the next thing in your career.
and when we worked together in DC, you
had already taken your academy director's
course, which was really unique.
So kinda for the coaches out there,
can you talk about, like, how you are
always learning more, eager to learn,
eager to get the next, the next badge?
Phil: I think it's, it comes from
a desire to learn, to start with.
I think it's very-- I think if
you're standing still in this
game, you're already behind.
I think there's always somebody
that thinks differently.
There's always somebody that sees the game
differently, whether it's someone who's
been in the game for 50 years, somebody
who's been in the game for five minutes,
they might see something that you don't.
So I think that's the biggest thing
for me, and whether it's a conversation
like this, whether it's going to paying
thousands of pounds, thousands of dollars
to be on a course, whatever that might
be, there's always somebody that has
a different perspective and I think if
you're always willing to be open to those
things, then you can always get better.,
Liron: You were in football
your whole life, right?
since you were a kid, and then that's,
that, that's what led you to playing--
You played in Maryland, right?
Phil: Yeah, so I started, yeah,
started from a very young age as a
lot of kids do over here and worked
my way all the way through and then
first went into college soccer in
South Georgia, Thomasville, Georgia,
right on the Florida-Georgia border.
So that was where my American path
started at 19 years old in college soccer.
Liron: great way to start in America,
Phil: yeah.
So that's where I started.
And after college, kept chasing
the dream and bounced around some
clubs in Maryland in the USL at the
time and never really panned out.
But coaching was always in the background.
So it was a natural step
from that perspective.
Liron: in, in England,
the dream was to be pro,?,
Phil: always, probably at 41.
I'm still chasing that dream.
I still would love to put on a boot.
But yeah, that was always the goal to
start with and never really worked out.
And whether it was the wrong place,
wrong time, wasn't good enough, whatever
that might have been, whatever the
reasons, I'm sure there's loads of them.
It never did.
But it was always, for me, I
always wanted to be in football.
If I wasn't coaching, I
would be cutting grass.
I would be kit man.
I would find a way to be involved
somehow because it's always been
what I've wanted to do from day one.
Liron: So coming to an American college
was part of what you thought was a good
step for you to get into a pro life?
Phil: Yeah, possibly.
I've probably come from
my parents as well.
Neither were big football people,
were never really massively involved.
And that was a good opportunity for
my mom to push a university degree.
So when I said to her, I've got a
chance to go to America and go to
college, she said, yeah, no problem.
Off you go.
I didn't tell her I was
going to play football.
And for me, college would come second.
I left college after my senior year.
I didn't graduate.
So I did my four years of playing.
So I left after my senior year
and again, continued chasing a
dream that never really got there.
But again, coaching was in
the background the whole way.
And so here we are again, 20 years later.
Pat: as a player, was your mind
going there already as a coach
when you were still playing?
Phil: I don't think-- You know what?
I think I was always
able to keep it separate.
I think there was always playing.
I mean, obviously I know
you played the game as well.
So I think for me, it was always
I played and I wanted to play.
and to your question before
that, it was always the goal to
play until I couldn't anymore.
but I think there was ways
to earn a living and to
supplement earnings to, to cope.
So it was a way of, it was a way of
keeping afloat for a while, and then once
the reality hit, it was actually, no,
this could be a long-term career, and
unfortunately it's worked out that way.
Liron: so let's talk a little bit
just about the obvious, right?
you coach in the United States
environment, specifically at the
youth level, and you move to England.
I'm not gonna just-- We'll make
it simple just to start with.
What did you pick up in the United States
that was valuable where you are now?
Phil: Work ethic has to be just the amount
of hours you spend as an individual.
linking it back to Pat's question,
like willingness to learn and
just be able to do sessions.
it's the advice I give to young coaches
when they ask me now: "How do you do
and what do you get there?" It was like,
"Just be involved in any session you can,
whether it's grassroots, whether it's
pay-to-play, whatever you're involved
in, how do you get on the grass?" and
that's, it's something I took then and I
did everything when I was in the States.
I started with two and three-year-old
tots classes all the way through to,
first teams and things like that.
I did anything.
If somebody said, "Do you wanna coach
this?" I just said yes and worked it out.
and that was probably, I think it's a
little bit of working on your craft and
learning on the job, but that was the
biggest thing I've took from playing and
from coaching in the States, was just
being on the grass as much as I could.
Liron: that, that's,
Phil, that, that is you.
That's you as a personality.
So if I put you in France, I
put you in Africa, we'll be--
you're gonna be the same Phil.
The qu- the more it's like d- was
there anything specifically in the
American environment, the American
game, and the American colleagues you
had that you picked up that had an
effect on who you are today as a coach?
Phil: I go back to that answer It was
being willing to go and do whatever it
was that needed to be done at the time.
If, if, you know, we talk about DC United,
if I was asked to go and fold T-shirts
for a, for a backpack, I'd go and do it.
You know?
So that, so yeah, I agree with you,
with what you're saying and, and that
is me, but That came from being around
people that whether it was in college
coaches, whether it was youth team
coaches, whatever I was involved, it
was just the amount of work that people
were willing to put in to get better
and to evolve and, and to do those bits.
So yeah, it's me, but it also, I think
a lot of that was learned behavior
as well from the people I was around.
Pat: Um, going back to what you said,
when you started coaching, Do you
have an early memory that, that you
remember as a coach, something that
went well, maybe something that didn't
go well, or something you cringe at?
'Cause I have a lot of those
from when I was first started
Liron: start with the cringe.
Phil: Start with a cringe.
You know what?
I've actually still got it somewhere.
I was working, with a team in
Maryland, and I was asked to do a
curriculum that was gonna go out
to some, very small partner clubs.
And I look back at it now and it was
hand-drawn pen, handwritten notes, and
I'm going, "I cannot believe that I
sent this out with one, the club's badge
on it and with my name next to it."
I'm going, "Oh my, why?" Could I not have
found a better way to do this at the time?
But at, again, at the time,
that's all I knew how.
But that was definitely
a cringe moment going.
At the time, I was really proud of it,
and now I look back at it and go, "Oof,
that..." it's literally hand-drawn
photocopies that we handed out.
the things that have gone well, it just
came from paying attention and trying
to find things that were successful
for people that I had played for or
that I had worked with and taking on
board things that I saw the kids enjoy.
that's still something that I take
today when I go out on the grass
every day is hopefully the kids will
want to play in, uh, in my sessions,
in the sessions that I'm a part of.
Obviously, a lot of our audience
are parents or young coahces in the
Liron: industry.
So it's, it's easy on the pro side because
you understand what a pro coach is, but
Parents on the sideline, especially in
the, in the academy world where I am,
they don't understand what goes behind it.
Can you talk a little bit about what is
it in a simple term that parents just
don't see about youth coaches, especially
Phil: dangerous question.
It's, uh, this is
Liron: Ma-Matt, by the way,
Matt sent me that question.
I, uh, well, it's not me.
Phil: Great question while you're
not sitting there, sitting at
home, wherever, wherever he is.
it's probably a perception.
I have no idea if this is true or not.
So it's, it's probably the perception
that coaches just show up and put a
session together, and we just throw a few
cones out, loads of cones, a few goals.
I know from the people I've worked with
across all levels in both countries, in,
in other countries, that the amount of
time and effort that goes into putting
together a 90-minute training session,
is probably the one of the things
that I feel gets lost on the outside.
but I do believe there's, two,
three hours a day minimum goes
into planning some sessions.
Liron: and then game
management too, right?
Phil: think it goes back to,
to experience and learning
what's worked and what hasn't.
depending on where you're working and
the methodologies that are at clubs and
periodization, all the bits go along,
you have to believe in what you're doing.
if there's a required percentage
for playing time, that's
always one that comes up.
And I know it's a massive
thing from the sidelines from
parents and things like that.
And everywhere's a little bit different.
Premier League rules are different.
MLS rules are different.
Each individual club has their own thing.
So it's trying to be fair, trying to
make sure the kids get the opportunity
to play and to learn and to develop.
at the end of the day, you can't please
everybody, and that's something that
took me a little while to learn and
probably early in my career was guilty
of trying to please too many parents.
And actually, it's not about the
parents, it's about the kids playing.
And you do have to listen, and there'll
be concerns along the way, but at the
end of the day, it's, it's the kid
that's playing that's the most important.
Liron: what way you're saying
you had to-- you were thinking of
b- especially early on pleasing
parents, and when did you make, say,
"Okay, wait, what am I doing here?"
Phil: I wish I could, I wish
I could put a stamp on it.
It's probably just one of those things
that support from academy managers, from
people I worked for, asking questions.
it was always trying to understand
if a parent was coming to you, why?
Or is it as simple of going, " Johnny's
played more than Steven." or is it of
going, "Actually, maybe I haven't been
quite as fair as I should've been."
So trying to take on, trying to take
on every complaint or every comment in
a purposeful way, but then also being
able to, as you learn more, as I learn
more, and more discussions I had, it was
actually separating, okay, what's just
somebody moaning versus actually where...
What's something or who's somebody that
I need to go and have a conversation
with Maybe I haven't spent enough time
with this kid or given them enough time.
So it was trying to sort through
a complaint that was genuine
versus one that was just a bit of
a moan, and it took a long time.
I don't-- there's not a specific time
for it, but it did take a bit of time.
Liron: Yeah, I can't even imagine.
Pat: That, that in and of itself,
you asked what do parents not see,
and all of that work behind that
scenes, 'cause Phil, you and I had a
lot of conversations about e-exactly
where is this comment coming from?
Where is this feedback coming from?
What should we take it into consideration?
how much do we keep doing our thing?
And there's, there is a lot of,
there's a lot of work that goes behind
managing 20, 25 players, for sure.
Phil: before you went, just obviously it's
different as well through the age groups.
Obviously coming to DC where I was
working with the older boys, we had what?
24, 25, 'cause it was
a, a dual birth year.
You had to leave players out.
You had to have that conversation with
players and go, "And listen, sorry, you're
not coming on this trip," or, "You're not
playing this weekend." So a-again, back to
that comment that I... That's difficult.
There's nothing worse than turning around
to a 16, 17-year-old boy that's doing
everything he can, going, "Listen, it's,
it's your turn not to play this week."
And I, I don't know if... It's a,
it's a great point, Pat, that just
kinda triggered a thought that I don't
know if parents realize how much that
goes into what we do every day and,
and having those conversations on a
Friday night before we go to the game
on Saturday or whatever it might be.
Like that, that's a
massive part of it as well.
Pat: and I'll add to it how
much, how hard that is for us,
how much work we put into that.
We have to make a tough decision, we make
a tough decision, and then you might be
getting it on the other end, and it's, it
gets, it's tough sometimes, and it becomes
a lonely position quite a bit, I know.
Phil: Yeah.
Liron: Let me ask you both.
You
were in a scholarship Programs
in the United States, right?
But have you been involved in a pay system
where parents are spending thousands
of dollars even at the older ages and,
and maybe rightly so are assuming that
their kids should play more minutes?
Pat: let me go first.
because the premise, I'm not gonna accept
the fact that because the parents aren't
paying, we're not hearing about it.
That, the honeymoon period probably
lasts, four, six weeks, but after
that, it's, I find it's not too
different, to be honest with you.
Phil, your take?
Phil: I was gonna answer the exact
same way and even extend it to, to
being over here in, a Premier League
Category 1 academy that the expectation
is the same if they're kids in the
academy, they expect everything.
and rightly so to an extent.
I do wanna say that there is an
expectation from, I'm a parent of
a young boy, and I'm sure even as a
coach at some point, this conversation
may come up if he plays in sports.
so it's, I don't for any moment sit and
take that parent side of it for granted
because it's not an easy place to be on
the other side of the line and going,
they're not seeing their kid excel or get
better or even w- get worse sometimes.
Like it does happen.
so it's, I don't pretend it's
easy to be a parent on the
other side of it easy either.
But yeah, I don't think there's that
much difference between pay to play or
academy football or, the expectation
from parents I think is very similar.
Pat: it's a really good point you bring up
and To, to include the, like the parents.
These conversations often get very
almost advers- adversary where the
coach is on one side, the parent's
on the other, and I know from having
worked with you, Phil, it's... We're
trying to avoid that at all costs.
We're trying to pull them in, trying
to keep them included, trying to make
them, give them as much information as
they can to support their kid, because
it's not an adversarial relationship.
That doesn't serve us.
That doesn't allow us to do our
job to the best of our ability.
Phil: No, it's spot on, mate, and
it's, I've been at clubs where the
club made a choice and we did r- try
and move the parents as far away from
it as possible, and sometimes that
helps and other times it doesn't.
It's at the end of the
day, they're still kids.
Even the 16, 17, 18-year-olds are,
they're still kids to an extent.
you're spot on, Pat.
I, I agree with you 100% on that,
is that we try and work together.
It doesn't always work that way, and
there's always times where it bubbles
over from one side or the other or both.
but I do try and keep it away from
being us versus them because everybody
needs everybody in this moment, but
it doesn't always work that way.
Pat: No, but it's a great mo- it's
a great message, especially to
coaches and to younger coaches.
Like it's...
We're only with these kids a couple
hours a day, as and I, and I know
you've dealt with that on... I've seen
you dealing with that multiple times.
Phil: Yeah, it's... You can only
be, you can only be as honest as
you can with parents, and that's
always what I've tried to do.
It's always be as honest as I can,
and I've always said to parents a
little bit with, a little tongue in
cheek, If you're willing to ask a
question, be prepared for the answer.
But you can only be honest if
you actually know where that
person's coming from as well.
So you do try and have, it might be at
arm's length, but you are trying to have
a relationship with these people because
they're a massive part of the kid's life.
More so than we are.
As much time as we do spend
with the kids, as you said, Pat,
Pat: Yeah.
Phil: it's not all the time.
So we need their help as well.
Pat: having worked in, on both sides of
the pond here, do you find it's the same?
Do you find-- Are, are there
differences over there with the parents?
Same thing?
Phil: It's remarkably similar.
And listen, obviously I've actually
spent, I'm probably close to 50-50 now
again, but for a long time there I'd
spent more time in America than I had.
I only spent 19 years
in the UK growing up.
And actually when I moved back, I'd been
in the States just over 20, 21 years, I
think it was by the time I moved back.
So coming back into academy football,
I was expecting the same as you guys
sitting there going, there's no way the
parents at Premier League Academy are
going to have as much back and forth
as they do in America and pay to play.
But I wouldn't differentiate it that much.
They still care for their
son, their daughter.
They still have the same
goals for them as well.
So I don't think it changes that much.
My experience anyway has not been that
much different, which did surprise me.
It still surprises me saying it now.
Liron: know, you know where
it could be different?
I-- This is where I'm just, again,
this is such a fun conversation.
I've been-- I'm reading a book now
about the history of soccer in America,
and I'm reading about the NASL, the
league that was here in the '80s.
So it was filled with, foreign players.
So a lot of the English players
who were later in their career came
here to play in the United States.
They felt that the reason they liked
playing here was because when they
made a mistake, f- if there were
20,000 fans in the stadium, nobody
knew that they made a mistake.
If they made that same mistake
on the English pitch in whatever,
there were 20,000 people who knew
exactly what mistake they made.
And in a way, I'm not downplaying
the involvement of American parents
understanding the game, but many of
us don't live the game like they do
in England So if sometimes we'll go
to a coach and say, "Hey, put my son,
put my daughter," blah, blah, blah.
But then the coach goes, here's
the explanation why they won't."
They'll be like, "Okay, I guess that's
a good explanation because that person
knows more than me." I feel like
that probably wouldn't be the case
in England because probably half the
parents feel they know more than you.
Phil: Corret.
Liron: Okay, great.
Pat: Nice.
Phil: Yeah, we can move on.
No, I think it's a really
good way to look at it.
But I think also with the availability
of soccer, of football on TV in
America and the amount you can watch
and the amount, books, podcasts
Liron: Okay.
So, so you're now just gonna
go to every American parent.
"Well, you know, your kid is not good at
finding the third man." "Okay, no problem.
I have no idea what he said,
but that's good enough for me."
Pat: Um, having, having spent the first 19
years of your life there, come here for 20
years, go back, was there something that,
that you felt changed or was different?
Some- anything surprise
you coming back to England?
Phil: The sheer volume of people at
work, just from a Nottingham Forest
standpoint, the amount of people at
work in the academy, take away the first
team and everything else, the volume
of people compared to what I w- was w-
when we were working together at DC,
we were a skeleton crew, weren't we?
it was... That felt relatively big,
and then I came to Forest and it had
the amount of people that are in the
academy and the amount of people that
are willing to go above and beyond
for these kids and for the club is
astronomical, and that was the thing
that probably shocked me the most from
a, from an organizational standpoint.
But I think the end goal's the
same if you're in MLS Academy,
the goal is first team football.
it's the same for these kids here,
is they wanna play for Nottingham
Forest or for another Premier League
football club, and the goal's the same.
the sheer volume of people at a
Premier League football club is wild.
Pat: was that how it was... I don't
know if you remember how much contact
you had with a cl- club like that when
you were young, but is it-- Was there
a difference in, England before you
left and England when you got back?
Phil: Yeah, I, I think Probably with
the inception of the Premier League
and the rules that they have and then
with some of the auditing and the work
that the Premier League's done behind
the scenes, I think that's probably
pushed the boundaries even further.
Obviously, when I left, the money
in the Premier League was big.
Where it is now 20 years later is
astronomical and I think that's probably
where it's changed and investment
in the academies and obviously here
is a little bit different to the MLS
in terms of the transfer of players
and the money that it costs to move
a player from Premier League club to
Premier League club or beyond that.
Pat: it's interesting though 'cause... So
I, I went over, I visited Phil about a,
about a year ago, a year and a half ago.
At one club, I was sitting
in on staff meetings.
The conversations seemed really similar.
The money and then the pressure
seemed really, really high.
That seemed at a, at a different level.
Phil: I think, yeah, what we have
at Forest I think is brilliant.
There's the work that goes on
behind the scenes to try and nullify
a little bit of that pressure.
our job is day-to-day look after the kids,
make sure they're getting what they need.
Behind it all you know that at the
end of the day, the club wants a
Premier League football player and
that's where the probably underlying
pressure comes across all the staff
is that we want these kids to succeed.
That's why we go in every day.
That's why we put in the hours that we do.
But I don't think that changes
from what we did at DC, what
I did when we were at Orlando.
Like I think the concept's the same.
But yeah, I think the value of, these
players and what it costs to move them
around is tenfold here compared to
what-- because the system's different.
Liron: but, so then I'm in a point
of privilege, and I'm gonna ask
the two of you again a question.
So you said the concept is the same.
Pat, you said that the i- the
ideas and conversations were the
same, but let's be realistic.
You, Phil, also said that the
staff and the amount of support or
infrastructure within Nottingham
Forest, f- for example, versus a,
an MLS academy is vastly different.
We had a conversation with, the
director of Orlando City a few weeks
ago, and he specifically mentioned
that they only have two active scouts
on salary for the whole academy.
I have a friend who just, his
son made it into La Masia.
He said there's 20 scouts for
La Masia in every game, third
division game in their age groups.
So you guys can honestly tell me
that an infrastructure like you
just described with more employees,
more support, won't produce a better
product and a better player than the
equivalent one in the United States?
I'm only talking about
developing that raw talent.
Phil: more doesn't always mean better.
I t- I think that's, I think
for me is making sure it's
the right kind of support.
The more people you can potentially become
more specialized in the departments, so
hopefully you can get into more detail and
with detail comes knowledge, hopefully.
so that's if I was, if I was going to
push it, that, that's where you would go.
But I also know the work when I was at
Orlando, the w- the staff was small,
and we worked our socks off to make
sure that the kids got everything they
need, and all the same at D.C. and the
amount of hours and work that we put in
there to-- So I- you would hope that the
product is better in the Premier League
because you're dealing with more people.
You would hope.
I look at someone like, the boy
from Philly who's gonna end up at
Manchester United, Cavan, right?
you can tell him he was a thorn in my side
for years for both D.C. and for Orlando.
So used to cause me nightmares, he's
come through an MLS academy is, and
is gonna end up playing at a Premier,
one of, if not the best Premier
League academies and first team.
So
his experience has come
through an MLS academy as well.
So it's... We all wish we said it,
me and Pat say this all the time,
we wish we had a crystal ball.
you hope you do the right things and
you learn and you evolve and you give
the, you give everything you can.
But at the end of the day, it's, I
go back to my own experience, the
right time, right place, right people.
I think that's more important
than the volume of people.
Pat: I think I would answer your
question as, I think there's a baseline
you have to, you kinda have to be at,
so that you can check all the boxes.
when you have a lot of people, and Phil,
you chime in, where you have to make sure
that the messaging is clear, efficient,
aligned, and that everyone knows that,
knows their place in the bigger machine.
Phil: Spot on, mate.
the more people you include in the chain,
the harder it is to keep it aligned
and that's something I know that we're
doing now really working really hard
to make sure that the method and the
information and the words being used
are similar across the board as you
work your way through the age groups.
'Cause again, the more people you
have, the harder it is to do that.
Liron: that goes back
to my earlier question.
it's remarkable, s- because you have the
staff and you have the knowledge bank
to invest in those individual players.
Patrick, I'm not sure that's exactly
the environment in the United States,
and it's just not because of the
knowledge of the people involved.
It's because of just there's
a lack of staff in generally
in, in those academy teams.
Pat: I think there's, you
know, there's a spectrum.
There's, you know, and, and there's
certain MLS academies that are,
that are very well-staffed for sure.
and there's certain--
There are ones that aren't.
Phil: Yeah, essentially there's,
there's other bits that go onto it,
like the facilities and, and it's,
it's really the club in its, in its
whole, but yeah, essentially that's it.
across the UK is, is most academies
are gonna have everything from
under eights all the way through.
Liron: Wait, I didn't know
that that.
In the UK a, a, a pro team has to have
an academy all the way through U8?
Phil: Doesn't, it's not required,
uh, my understanding of the rules.
Liron: Patrick, we don't-- I mean,
for us, the, the pro academies
start much later than that, right?
Yeah.
I, I think there's something to be said
about, about being at a certain club from,
from a young age and, and developing up.
which leads me to something that,
that you brought up, Pat, before.
It's about the complication of the
structure in the United States, It's
just the reality of geography here
But let's say, and I don't know the,
the geography of, of England so well,
but probably around Forest, I think
Leicester is, like, 20 miles away.
you have three or four academy
teams that are all within driving
distance of where you are.
so families do have options of where
to go without having to drive two,
three hours, uh, to other places,
where I think many people in the
United States don't have that option.
And do you find that that's part of
the success in the English structure,
We just did an interview with a family
from upstate New York, from Albany, and
their choice was to drive three hours to
Connecticut or three hours to Westchester
to have their kids in an MLS NEXT program.
Phil: it's, I remember we used to
fly every weekend, Pat, didn't we?
I mean, every away game was minus
going to New York, which was a
four-hour, you know, from DC to
New York, it's a four-hour drive.
we took one of our older teams went
down and played a London team the
other week in London from Nottingham.
It's two hours with no traffic,
depending on which part of London.
So I think that's probably the, the
massive benefit here is that you have so
many options at so many different levels.
I wouldn't even, I couldn't even
tell you off the top of my head
how many football clubs are within
a 50-mile radius of Nottingham.
and before you're eight, you can train
with a different club every night if
you like, if you go to their pre-academy
stuff, which I think's brilliant.
Um, but then there does come a point that
I think it's under eights where you start
to have to start to choose, and from
there it can be a, it can be a tightrope.
But yeah, back to your original point
that, yeah, the, the geography of
the United States is, it's mad in
terms of playing away games, home
games, just getting to training.
we have some kids that drive an hour to
train and, and that's a long way for them.
Like a massive amount.
Liron: Also, also American Pat, right?
American teams having to travel miles
and miles for same level competition.
You can't cross the street to
have usually good competition.
Pat: I mean, look, it's a, it's a
massive undertaking what the guys at
the league are, are doing, and it's
very easy to, to kinda pick apart
where things can, can be better.
But the fact that this exists in
this capacity is pretty remarkable
what they've built, and it's,
it'll continue to, to get better
It's, it's, it's an undertaking.
Uh, Phil just brought up the, the travel.
We, we were getting on a plane all the
time in DC, and we're on the East Coast.
We're probably one of the easier
places where we can... Yeah.
I mean, I s- I remember speaking to
an academy director out in the Midwest
who his travel budget was bigger than
my entire budget Because everywhere
they go, they're getting on a plane.
so it's, it is a challenge,
like you said, Liron, to see, to
get light competition for sure.
Phil, I wanted to, I wanna come back to
what you said 'cause I, and I know we
experienced it in DC and I'm sure it's
over there too with the number of choices
to go to different clubs and play here
and there, 'cause I find a lot of the
players, the families, oh, I'm not really,
I'm not really getting the answers I want
over here, so I'm gonna go over there.
You guys probably don't
know what you're doing.
We're going over there.
And I do, I worry about the kids.
I worry about their resilience and
their ability to fight through some of
these things while understanding, okay,
maybe it is a better fit over there.
Maybe that is better for you.
Phil: It's , yeah, After under 12s they
make a decision as a retain and release
at the end of the under 12 age group.
and from that point it becomes
essentially a two-year commitment.
Um, so w- if you're retained at the end of
under 12, you you're guaranteed a place at
the club until the end of under 14 year.
So players can choose to leave.
we can't release them in those age
groups 'cause we've made a commitment
to them, so that helps on that side.
but within that, that there's
probably some good and some bad as
well in terms of it does ask players
to commit for two years because
that's what we're doing that way.
Um, but there is the also that part that
if it's not going the way we want it
to if they want to make a change it is
difficult for them as well because clubs
can turn around and go, "No, listen,
we've invested X amount of pounds in you.
If you want to leave and go somewhere
else, that club's gonna have to
pay for you." so we see less moving
around from that st- standpoint.
the- then there's a retain release
conversation at the end of under
14s, and again, if you're retained
you stay till the end of, you know,
the sch- what they call the scholar
years here, uh, after under 16s.
Um, and that's when you're starting to
get into the professional development
phase and becoming a scholar.
But so there's the movement usually
happens with the players that are released
at the end of 14s or the end of 12s,
under 14s, and then at the end of 16s.
Um, and that's where you see players
darting around, and if they are released
they, they go on a free and, uh, and
there's no, there's no compensation
or anything from that side of things.
Liron: uh, uh, since you, you've,
you've coached on both ends of
the pond, is there a quality to an
American player, a youth player that
you've seen that you would think is
different from an equal age in England?
And are there things that kind of the
American players have that kind of
get undervalued or unseen in Europe?
Phil: For me, it's the American player
seen as very athletic, can cover lots
of ground, the pace and strength and
obviously these are generalized comments,
their general athleticism is superior.
probably the downside and probably the
bit that we look at the flip side here
is that the technical qualities of
players in the UK and Europe would s-
supersede what in the American player.
So there's, if you can find that
player that can do a little bit
of both, then you're flying.
Then you've got someone like
Haaland playing for Man City.
But, it's trying to find those
players who has the athleticism
to match up with the technical
qualities, the tactical understanding.
that was always, I felt the biggest
challenge with MLS players is
having them understand the game.
I don't know if they watch the game as
much as just the general watching, Man
United play Arsenal or whoever it might
be at the weekend, or Barcelona, Real
Madrid, or whoever might be playing.
I was amazed that with the players that,
that I work with, how little of them
actually watched the game, considering
how much was available on the on US TV.
I was blown away by, by that,
and hopefully that's changing.
I really do and... ' Cause it's how
I-- I'm not saying I, I learnt it in
a perfect way, but I used to watch the
TV and then go in the garden and try
something, and I just don't know if
that's happening with players anymore
Liron: Patrick, remember you said that in,
in your interview, your early interview,
you mentioned your time in Malaga, and
you talked about the immersion of kids
in soccer outside of their training.
I don't think we still
made that transition here.
It's not that it's not getting better,
but, and again, being general, but we
haven't made that immersion, that, that
kind of, of just absolute obsession
with the game outside of being at
practice three, four times a week.
Pat: That, that trip that I took
the kids were involved in the
game all the time, and they were--
Their-- They trained their eye.
They were always watching the game.
I remember really Trying to do what
I could with the, I remember with the
ticket office at DC and getting to
the point where, "Okay guys, I got
you a ticket, any game you wanna go."
And then getting word back from
the ticket office and they're like,
"Your kids aren't going as much as
they could." and remember just like
going over that and "Okay, what's the
disconnect here?" And there's certainly
geography to it and time to it for
sure, but I can guarantee you at Malaga,
those kids are going to that match.
No, there's no chance they're not.
I think we're experiencing it here
too, and that probably my kind of
feeling at the moment is with, and
there's benefits to social media
as much as there are pitfalls.
When I grew up, there
was one match of the day.
It was on Saturday night at half past
10 at night, and if I was still awake,
I'd try and sneak on and watch it and
then go in the garden the next day.
The boys and girls today, they, they
have access to all these clips and all
these bits, these eight-second videos,
But that seems to be where they live.
So it's how do you engage
them in social media?
How do you get them to go and watch that
video and then come into the park or the
pitch or wherever and try these things?
'Cause I think that's where, for
me, that's the biggest learning,
when the players are trying
things without the coach watching.
and that's what we try and encourage.
I certainly, I try and encourage
as much as I can because I
can tell them everything.
If they can't go and do it on a Saturday
or at training, it doesn't really
matter how much information I give them.
yeah, let me throw this
question at you, Phil, 'cause
I've been thinking about this.
With these eight-second clips, right?
And I'm watching a player recently
and he's, he receives the ball
in the wide area of the field.
He's past the defender.
All he has to do is push it and
go, and he waits for him and
squares him up and literally gets
rid of the advantage that he had.
And I'm thinking about
these eight-second clips.
Oh, you're watching these players
square someone up every time.
But pros at the highest level, and
if you're watching the game at a
stadium, they're not waiting for
that guy to catch back up to you.
they're gone and they're pushing
the ball as much as they can.
do you think there's a relation there?
Phil: I, I very rarely speak in
ab-absolutes, but definitely.
I think it's, you know, when
we're sitting doing video, we try
and keep clips relatively short.
A 30-second clip in, in a video review
with a team or with a player is long.
at the same time, you wanna show them the
movement before, the movement after, the
movement of players that are in relation
to them, and are they making decisions
off visual cues and tactical cues and what
the manager wants or what the, whatever.
We're-- The... I've hit about
five different layers there
in a five-second comment.
So I think with social media, it gives
the players that eight seconds of
look at what I've done, and that's it.
everyone uses the word, words
instant gratification, right?
Oh, look how good this player was here.
But what did they do next?
Did they keep the ball?
Did they pass it?
Did they beat their man?
Did they create a
goal-scoring opportunity?
Did they make a tackle?
What happened next?
And I think that's the bit that
gets missed for me is what happened
before and what happened next.
Pat: Yep.
Liron: Yeah, it, it-- no, it's brilliant.
It's th-this is probably some of the
disconnect too of the game itself here
in the United States versus England,
and it's hard for me to quantify.
But Pat, you brought
this up so many times.
If you have a kid that plays at
Forest right now in your academy or
at Leicester in your area or Norwich
and their cousin played there, their
uncle played there, their friend's
friends play there, and they kiss that
logo when they score a goal, it like
means something and they know that
grandpa has goosebumps or whatever.
So their involvement in the game is
like a familial responsibility and
a pride for them to be part of that.
If a kid here plays in Bethesda or
plays in Gotchee, it doesn't really
mean that much, football here I
find becomes like school to them.
It becomes basically an
extension of their day.
in England I would imagine that
it's because it's such a cultural
spine, it would always feel different
as a responsibility and an honor
in playing for the local team.
Phil: Oh, I would like to say, and
I think it... Oh, I'm going back
to my day, and I think in, in,
when I grew up playing, it did.
I think the, again, the shift is the,
players watching today are following more
individual players rather than teams.
and I find that more with the
conversations you have with the boys
and going, "Oh," even just, " Who do
you support?" I don't really support
anybody." I- if you a- if you ask My
friends, when I was 12, 13, 14, everyone
supported within two or three teams
within, 20 miles of where you grew up.
That was it.
So I think that's where it's changing.
Again, you can, without having any
scientific data, that's probably
where you link it back to social
media and what on TV and those bits.
And, I don't, you see what, kids
in the UK walking around with
Inter Miami Messi jerseys on.
And you're going, and you're going, wow.
And you see how that's changing the
game from certainly when I grew up.
And I'm not saying that's wrong by any
means because if you're watching Messi
doing everything he does, hopefully
you turn into a pretty decent player.
So there's, again, I do believe there's
pluses and minuses to all these changes.
It's how you embrace them and how you
engage the players in those moments.
Liron: let me, let me, ask you
something that we hear a lot
here in, in the United States.
about these English kids who get dropped
out of the academy at 16, 17, and all
of a sudden that's all they have, and
they're kind-- this is like a known story.
They're, they're done.
Where, uh, the American player in an
essence, and Patrick, correct me if
I'm wrong, the school, the collegial
part becomes-- is a very important
part of the American player development
because school is, is significant here.
do you see that, that difference?
Is this something that, that gets
discussed in, in your environment?
Phil: Yeah, I think it's obviously I
benefited from the American system, at 19.
needed something to do, needed
somewhere to go and that was an
opportunity that presented itself.
I think the school systems and
probably the expectations potentially
of parents and, that you must go to
college in America if you have the
opportunity and not everybody does.
But there's a much higher, in my
opinion, a, a much higher reliance
on going to university, whereas here
you can choose to leave school at 16
and it's-- it went away for a little
bit, but it's starting to come back
and go down apprenticeship routes
and university's a wild and wonderful
thing if you use it in the right way.
I think people love it, people hate it.
there's all bits in between.
But I think there's, for me, it,
coming to America at 19 and being
able to start my college degree and
potentially try and push where I want
to go in terms of football was great.
And I think there's probably, again,
I'd say I sit on the fence with it
and there's pluses and minuses because
if all you ever wanted to do was play
football, you put everything into
it, then maybe you've got a chance.
But if you hold back, "Ah, you
know what? If all else fails,
I'll go to college." did you put
100% in every day to become a pro?
some people do, and,
it's a great question.
Again, probably another podcast in
itself that, going down the college
path, I think there's ma- there's massive
amounts of benefits to that as well.
at the same time, if you've always
got a relatively comfortable backup
plan, are you gonna throw everything
you've got at becoming a pro?
But there are also lots of kids
that do and don't get there, and
then they're left with nothing.
So it's, like I say, I could
probably sit for the next
three hours talking about that.
Liron: Yeah.
Well, well, we're g- we're
gonna ... It's, Patrick, it's, right,
it's, it's, it's a very interesting
thing to be an American kid where
you get to, let's say, the U15, U16.
You're just good enough to be at a MLS
NEXT or MLS Pro Academy, but you know
that maybe Stanford come a-knocking
or some- but now you gotta keep that,
your GPA really high in high school,
so you're not 100% in the game.
And to be at that razor edge, the
end of the end, you gotta be 100% in.
H-how do, how do you balance that
in, with, with, in your environment?
Pat: It's such a, it's such a
difficult question to answer, and
it's so unique to each individual
player and each individual family.
I had a coach I worked with in, in New
England, and I, I asked him this similar
que- like, "What do, what do we tell
this kid?" And he was like, "You l- lay
out the pros and the cons, and you...
That is a, that's a decision for them
to make," because the, the stakes
are high at that point if you're, if
you're deciding whether you're going
to, gonna stick with the, with the
football pathway or you're gonna, you're
gonna go to college and try to do both.
Um, and it's, it, it's really difficult.
Listen, the kids get to that age,
if they're being offered a first
team contract, they're probably
taking a, a first team contract.
I think it's that next player where,
"Okay, we're gonna offer you a second
team contract," or, "I got a full ride to
Liron: the one I'm talking about because
that would be the, the larger numbers.
Pat: Yeah.
And I've seen kids, I've
seen kids go both ways.
I've seen kids take second team contracts
and, and try to have a run at it and
do the online school, and, and there is
support for them to get their degree.
And I've seen kids say, "No, I'm
gonna go to college," and some of
them get to play a little bit after
college and s- and some of them don't.
So it is a...
To, to Phil's point, it is a, it's, there
is some, are you putting enough eggs in
this basket to really, really make it?
And then there's the reality of,
okay, but this is a really valuable
situation to come to have a degree
and to have a degree paid for and,
and get to, you know, try to see how,
how you can compete at that level.
And obviously there are certain schools
and, and, you know, a couple conferences
in the US that, that are still producing
pros and, and high-level players.
Some of them, it's a really good step.
They're playing against men.
They're playing at, at
a really high level.
So there, there is some, some football
benefit to it as well sometimes, where,
where we look at a kid, you know what?
College soccer's gonna be really good for
him, and, and, and that's a good pathway.
But it's so individual, it's so
nuanced to each family, to each player.
Liron: I have a son, this 14-year-old son.
His time is limited.
He is-- he plays at a MLS
Pro Academy right now.
So now he has three hours, let's say,
at a certain day, and we have a dilemma.
Do you have to keep your grades up?
Or you know what?
I'd love to send him to some flexibility
classes 'cause he's a goalie and I
want him to become more-- work on his
core, which would be very important for
him to progress as a football player.
can you help me out because
I'm in big trouble here?
Phil: one.
Pat: this is why, this is
why he wanted us on this pod.
This is just free
Liron: yes.
This is a private session.
Phil: So I think there's loads of
bits that go on from a football
standpoint, and I can give you advice.
I can give you my opinion as a coach.
At the end of the day, you and your
son and your family have to make that
decision of where you want to go.
At the end of the day, you're talking
about Stanford or wherever, like
that's what, a half a million dollar
at the end of four years education.
Liron: Yeah.
Phil: You're not making $500,000
playing on a second team contract.
I can tell you that right now.
So it's unbelievably difficult
because the draws of playing
college soccer are massive.
Some of these college programs
and the facilities and equipment
and the things that they get.
And as Pat said, some of them
are going, the draft still puts
players from college into the MLS.
So that is a pathway as well.
It's so individualized and it depends
on the club you're at and does that
first team coach at the moment put
academy players into the first team?
Will that coach still be there in four
years time when your son turns 18 and is
eligible to play and things like that?
So there's so many things.
And how do you best spend your time?
Is it 50-50?
Do you get up extra half an hour
earlier to go to the flexibility in
the class before you go to school?
It's about the work that the player and
the family are willing to put in, but
I don't think there's no straight line.
There's no easy answer for
this one, unfortunately.
Liron: Oh, boy.
Phil: hasn't helped one bit.
Thanks guys.
I should probably go then.
Liron: get my wife on this call too.
Uh.
Pat: Liron, I would throw it back to you.
Is the-- Is he watching
TV for an hour a day?
Is he on his phone for an hour a
day?
I think there are enough hours in a day
to, to do, to do both, to at least, to
at least keep your grades high enough
where, you know, all right, maybe you're
not, you know, a 4.3, but, but you're
still keeping that option open of college
ball where, okay, he's a high-level
player and he's, and he's got a three
five, then he's going to a good school,
Because if you're really serious about
this thing, and we don't know if it's
going to be a pure, you know, football
pathway or if college is gonna be a part
of that, then something else has to go.
Liron: Patrick, you have another question
before we let, uh, Phil go and train these
Pat: Yeah.
Let's, what is the... From your
experience at a couple MLS clubs,
what's the biggest thing you take
from your experience here and are
utilizing it, back home in England?
Phil: I'm gonna use the word detail.
It's What detail can you give the players
and how do you get that detail across?
we talk about the layers of football and
the technical, tactical, all the bits that
goes with it, the, the fitness side of it.
what level of detail can you get a player
at a certain age and stage to understand?
and I don't think that changes
wherever you coach in the world,
whether it's, Australia to America
and everywhere else in between.
it's how do you get that player to
understand and player A and player B
might be exactly the same age, born on
the same day, same height, same weight,
same everything, but understand the
game differently and learn differently.
So how do you, get through to both kids
in a completely different way, whether
that's through video, whether it's through
showing, doing, whatever it may be,
how do you get through to that player?
So the amount of detail that you can
get over in a way that they understand.
Pat: What's your, what's your,
memory that sticks out from, from
our time working together in DC?
Phil: Mate, it's, it's,
it's just doing everything.
It's doing everything and being willing
to, whether it be, the amount of work
that we put in, and everybody else
that we worked with, and the part-time
staff and, the first team staff that
were around it and everything else.
just how much people were willing
to do above and beyond their
job title to, to make sure the
players had what they needed.
because I don't think, yeah, I, I
don't think we're sitting here going,
"We had everything we wanted," or,
on a checklist, but I think we found
a way to get the kids everything
they could need one way or another
Liron: i- isn't that to your
point about the staffing, right?
So you all love, we all love the sport,
and I know you guys are dedicated.
So okay, we have less staff, but you--
then you're gonna do double the work
Phil: 100%.
And it's, I've jumped in, Pat, as well.
Yeah, I think it's, I think you have to.
I genuinely think you have to because
at the end of the day, my playing
days were done by the time I'd gone to
DC and certainly Pat's were as well.
We, we ran around a little bit for
fun, but, our playing days were over.
So it's how do you create the
best environment for the players?
That's why we're there every day.
Without them, it doesn't matter.
So it's how do you get
them what they need?
So as I said, if I had to go to a
storage locker and pack a backpack
for a new kid because that's what
needed to be done, we'd do it.
It didn't, nobody
questioned, nobody asked.
We just went and did it because
that's what was best for the player.
And that's what I found.
And I go back to that, you asked very
early on about the work ethic part of it
and going, that's, that came from years
and years of seeing people at all levels,
the grassroots, tots, carrying equipment
around, doing whatever they had to do
to get sessions on, doing it in a car
park, doing it wherever you could put a
football session on, people were doing it.
And that's where I think it's so
important is as a young coach, it's
just being able to get on the grass and
help the kids because that's where you
Pat: I think it's such a beautiful lesson
and, we talked about staffing earlier and
we did not have the staff or the resources
that, that, we desired every day.
But what we did have is a lot of people
that were willing to do the extra things.
and what I love about that and thinking,
reflecting on our time working together
and the guys that we worked with, the men
and women we worked with, like everyone
was really willing to do that, and I
think that rubbed off on the kids too.
I think they knew.
I think they felt they got a staff
around that is going the extra mile.
I know they felt that way about you
personally, 'cause it was very evident
that, that we were asked to do a little
bit more than maybe at other clubs, and I
think that was a good message for the kids
Phil: hope, again, it rubbed off on me.
That's why I went back to the original
question is that's why I look, it's to
your point, it's probably me myself,
but I had to learn it from somewhere,
whether it was my parents growing
up or people I was around or, but it
certainly came from starting in South
Georgia on the YMCA fields and the
guy that ran the club at the time.
And he was out there 24-7.
If he had to line a
pitch, he'd line a pitch.
If he asked me, Phil, can you
help me put the nets on the goals?
Yeah, no problem.
Let's get it done.
Because if we didn't do it, the
kids, it would be, the experience
for the kids would be different.
And I think that's what
we're all in it for.
Hopefully we're all in it for is
for them at the end of the day.
I hope, Liron, your son experiences that
from the players and the staff that he
plays with That, that people at the end
of the day, they walk home and go, even
if they don't feel it at the time, at
some point they'll go, " Man, that guy
put in a shift for me, and whether it
worked out or not, that person really
cared about my success in the game."
Liron: I can see Phil, first day and
Forrest coming straight from the United
States and cleaning the guys' boots and
making tea, and people are like, "Hey,
relax. We got people for that. This is a
you don't have to do everything anymore."
Phil: what you say about
cleaning boots is brilliant.
we had a player that was playing for
our second team, and he got called
up last minute to the first team.
He'd just trained in the morning
or relatively recent, and his boots
were dirty, and he had to... And he'd
already gone home and left his boots.
The B team coach at the time
cleaned his boots for him and
dropped him off at the stadium.
So it happens at a Premier
League football club as well.
there are people everywhere in
this game that are willing to go
above and beyond to make sure...
and it wasn't the kid's fault.
he had no idea that he was gonna
get called up to the first team,
but the coach didn't want him
to show up with dirty boots.
So he, he got the brush out and cleaned
them for him and dropped them off for him.
that just, that tells you that, and
that's the team underneath the first team.
So it just tells you that there's people
at all levels everywhere willing to
go above and beyond for the kids and
hopefully that's what rubs off in the end.
Liron: think this is what this
episode is really about, right?
It's about what the coaches do.
It's what you guys do for our kids,
and it's just the what goes unseen,
and I think that's the theme of this.
It's just, it's incredibly powerful.
Phil: think the back of, just off the
back of that really quickly is that no
one's asking for a handshake or clap.
we'll just do it 'cause it's what's right.
So nobody's asking for... And I'm
not insinuating for any moment that's
what you're saying either, that
it's, we do it 'cause we love it.
that's, that, that's football and that,
for me personally, that's what this
game's about is just the pure love of
it and enjoying it every single day.
Good days, bad days, doesn't matter what.
Those hard days, those days
where you really don't wanna do
anything, you step onto the grass
and the whole day changes for me.
Pat: You s- you said something a moment
ago that I think is really point-
poignant where, the kids are gonna
suffer, the session's gonna suffer.
And at the end of the day, if
you're a coach with a Phil's
integrity, you can't let that go.
You have to go the extra mile.
You have to make sure that the bags
are set, the cones are straight,
the everything is all set because
those are the-- those details
add up to the experience of the
session or the match for the kid.
And I've seen Phil do that,
for years at D.C. United.
I'm sure he's still doing it.
Liron: there's a coach at NYCFC who, uh,
I've known for, for many years, and every
time the-- at the end of every training
when they gotta move the goals, move
the cones, everybody gotta get set, that
coach moves and cleans shoves things in
bags picks up small goals and i always
tell him it's like you have all these
young men let them do the job and he goes
to me no they're exhausted i'm good uh
i i i do i don't want to be unfair phil
because it just this is i have so many
questions and patrick maybe we'll just
revisit and do a part two but i will
ask the most important question phil is
football coming home this summer yes or no
Phil: I grew up in Scotland, so I
don't care if England win it or not.
So as long as Scotland come home with the
trophy, then we're, then we're all right.
So it's d- different song
for a different country.
But no, it's... Listen, I think the
World Cup's gonna be something special.
I mean, it's so, so different
this year, isn't it?
With just across three, three
countries, more teams, kickoff
times, different stadiums.
It's gonna be amazing.
But as long as the Tartan Army
are coming home with a trophy,
then I'll be, I'll be all right.
Pat: no, Phil, tha- thanks for the time.
It's good to just see you have
these conversations, reminisce
about the old days a little bit.
And, I'm not surprised to, to hear you
continue your journey and being in the
position you're in and taking the work
ethic and the insight that, that you have.
It's, it's, uh, not surprising at all.
Phil: and listen, I'm more than
happy to come back on and fill up an
hour and a half of your time again.
And whenever else you need someone to
fill in, I'm more than happy to come
and chat some more football anytime.
Great conversation with Phil, not surprised at all.
So many takeaways from every aspect of the game, from the pathway to the role of the
coaches, the role of the players, the role of the parents in what this looks like from a
holistic way.
Yeah I mean I'm going to use a quote from Phil.
The amount of time and effort that goes into putting together a 90 minute training session
is probably one of the things that gets lost on the outside.
Right.
Patrick I'm sorry to tell you but that's how you guys go on appreciate it every day.
We just we just don't see it as parents and we put our kids in we pick them up and we
think it just comes easy.
But we don't see the two or three hours before and the two or three hours after right.
No need to apologize.
We know what we're getting into, but we don't expect roses for for running a training
session.
it is a lot of work.
uh I've personally, you know, obviously been there myself.
I've seen Phil, you know, is a great example because I know he's putting in all that extra
time and extra work to care for the players.
One thing he brought up was having to decide a roster on a weekend, which is the
the worst part of the job when you have to tell a kid he's not coming on this trip or he
hasn't made the roster.
It's not something we take lightly, it's something that we struggle with emotionally.
uh Tactically, every part of the game, there's a lot of conversations happening.
And yeah, it's the thing that we enjoy the probably the least about the job.
And look, uh he addressed us as parents too, made us feel good.
He said, look, everybody needs everybody in this moment, right?
So it's this kind of idea that youth soccer, it's not just parents versus coaches versus
management.
It's a whole organism.
um The parents deserve honesty, but the coaches deserve trust.
And the players need the adults around them on both sides to stop turning every decision
into a battle or an argument.
Yeah, for sure, for sure.
I mean, we talked about the how the interaction between coaches and parents and what that
looks like and how that can benefit the kid at the end of the day.
I mean, we talked about the how the interaction between coaches and parents and what that
looks like and how that can benefit the kid at the end of the day.
We talked about staffing as well and what that looks like at different.
different clubs and more always looks like more and you definitely need a baseline for
sure, but you also don't want too many cooks in the kitchen as we spoke about.
Yeah, and to wrap up, said, we do it because it's what's right.
That's kind of the episode, not because someone claps it, someone tells you, puts it in a
bio.
No, it's because h you guys love the game and it's it's what's right.
You're helping kids.
All those little details that we spoke about, they add up.
If the cones aren't straight, if the bags aren't set, if the transitions between phases
aren't smooth, that adds up and it kind of allows the player to say, oh, I don't really
need to be at 100 % and we know that as coaches.
And so that's why we spend hours planning this stuff so it can be as close to high level
100 % focus and intensity as we can possibly make it.
Yeah, and so a huge thanks to Phil Gordon for sharing the work behind the work and to you
our beloved correspondent who every episode is the most popular episode and Matt and I are
absolutely depressed by that but we love having you.
ah
Oh it's it's it there's more to come and thanks you know Patrick for bringing this in and
allowing us to think differently about coaches and how they work with our kids.
Listen parents share this with other parents.
Coach appreciation day.
All right.
This is Chasing the game.
Coaching youth soccer in America.
Patrick.
See you buddy.