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In Ecclesiastes 3:11, we read that God makes everything beautiful in its time. It is comforting to know that nothing is wasted in God's economy, but all of it will be used for our good and His glory. You're invited to join us for poignant conversations and compelling interviews centered on believing for His beauty in every season.
Everything Made Beautiful (00:50)
Margaret, we're finally doing a podcast together. You were probably the first person I asked to do a podcast. And I'm so excited that we're not only getting to do it, but that we're doing it in person. So thank you, thank you, thank you for being on the podcast. This is my joy and privilege. This is a dream come true. Shannon, you are one of the most stunning people on planet Earth. And it is just, a delight to be with you. Well, we have known each other for quite a few years now.
We were trying to remember exactly. I know that we met you in passing when you came and spoke at our church in California back in the early 2000s. And I just remember thinking she's adorable. She's biblically literate. She's articulate. She's engaging. And it has been a North Star for me as a communicator that you are so good at what you do as a teacher, as an author.
all those things, but then we became friends friends as we our husbands were candidates at a church and for separate positions, but at the same time. And so we were on all these, you know, interviews and visits together and we both said no to that church, but we stayed friends. So I'm thinking maybe that was the whole reason that we did that process, but it has been a joy and I'm so excited to get to talk.
to you today. I have so appreciated your friendship and who you are as a leader and a powerful woman. is an inspiration to so many. Well, thank you. And we frankly could do a six and a half hour podcast of all the things that we could talk about that we are so passionate about equally. But I'm excited today to talk about your new book. And it's been a long time coming.
because you have written a ton of books and don't worry I will link all of those books in the show notes but this book has been particularly ⁓ is grueling an okay word to use it has definitely all books cost an author something this has cost you quite a lot so the new book is called The God You Need To Know which I love this title that we'll talk about soon but what inspired you to write it?
Why did you say yes to it? And then what has the journey been like getting to completion? Yeah, I'm gonna try to answer this without breaking out in tears, because I know I'm like, this is gonna be, I'm like, so much. So I decided back in 2019, do you remember that world ago? Do you remember that egg shit world? Before 2020, I don't recall. It's a different BC, but I just felt led. was like, I wanna do a book on the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit has been something I've just.
sought and yet wrestled with and struggled with in my whole life, ever since a little kid. And so I thought, I'm going to do this. And then the world fell apart in spectacular ways. And so we kind of start in that. And so I keep trying to write this book. And what I realize is I have tackled. it's like, I want to write a book on God. Right. Like, it's just so many angles, so much. So I'm researching. I'm studying our lives. We're falling apart in just spectacular fashion, just a billion pieces. you cannot make up. Nope.
No, over and over and over again. so it took me a really long time. And finally, I discovered a professor, a scholar, Jack Levinson, and he really zeroed in on the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament. And that shifted everything for me, because I'm like, how have I grown up my whole life in the church? Listen to the sermons, downloaded the podcast, read the books. And yet nobody's ever really pointed me to Holy Spirit in the Old Testament. So all of a sudden I thought, that interests me. That's something.
And so went on a deep dive, but it has been rough. you've gotten a front line. mean, literally every time I sat down to write on it, I didn't know what they were, but I started breaking out these like red things on my skin that were super itchy. And I had to go to a doctor and they were like, these are hives. I'm like, I've never had these in my life, but they would only break out when I sat down to write. And then if I'd go to a different project or tackle something, gone. And so this went on month after month, you know, all kinds of just
you know, struggles.
health issues, all kinds of challenges, even going to film the audio book, I think I posted on socials and you commented, like, I mean, my publisher is HarperCollins, right? So you think fairly legit, and they sent me to, how would you describe it? ⁓ when you posted it, I wasn't listening, I just was watching, and I immediately had to turn up the volume because I was like, why is Margaret going to what appeared to be an abandoned junkyard, like,
It was, it was sketchy at best. And it turns out it did not work. Nope. It did not work. And so I think, you know, I, it's just been a thousands quiet at times, public struggles behind it. And I've dozens and dozens of books. It was far from my first rodeo. And I talked to a pastor friend and she said, she said, ⁓ one of her pastor friends, he had sat down, he'd written a ton of books and then he went to write one about the resurrection.
And he said, what broke in his life was just astronomical. And that made me feel better. So I think that the next book that I'm gonna do is gonna be like, Jesus and bunny rabbits. know, like super. Sunflowers in scripture. Yes, totally. exactly. Yeah, not gonna, you know, but you start to touch on the resurrection. You start to touch on Holy Spirit. You start to, and there is just spiritual static is what I would call it. That you just kind of have to acknowledge. And some of it is just so absurd.
and so ridiculous and whether it's, who sits down to write a book and has done it her whole life and all of a sudden is in hives, uncontrollable? it makes me, you have a phrase that I use a lot and you say, remain suspicious that God is up to something good. And when I was hearing your story all throughout the book process and we were together, we spent a week together on vacation and.
It just colossal failure after failure after failure. Yes. The whole, what was it? The operating system and hard drive. Completely. my week to really knock it out and just gone. And no computer to buy where we were. Like it was just couldn't make it, couldn't make it Couldn't get it ordered, couldn't get it overnight. It couldn't get it shipped. mean, just like, yep. Yeah. And so that makes me suspicious that there is some good stuff associated with what I will admit growing up.
God was talked about a ton. Of course, we love Jesus and talked about Jesus dying on the cross, but ⁓ Jesus power, I don't recall talking about a lot and the Holy Spirit. We sang about and was probably mentioned, but I don't remember really any specific instruction or teaching on the Holy Spirit other than I remember an awareness that the Holy Spirit's there to convict me.
And so the Holy Spirit is for conviction of sin. Well, as a legalism product and a rule follower, I want to make really sure I follow the rules. And so the Holy Spirit felt like maybe the ruler that slaps my hand if I
strayed. And so as I've listened to you and others really dive into, first of all, the fact that I call
Him the Holy Spirit and you are on a first name basis with Holy Spirit even that Difference is something that I've noticed where I call Jesus Jesus. I don't call him the Jesus or the God it's God Jesus But then some the Holy Spirit is much more removed relationally even in the way I and most of us speak about the third person and so I would just love for you to kind of
school us. I know it's not possible in a in one podcast, but why do you think so many believers miss out on the abundance of riches there is to be found specifically with the Spirit? Because I think I'm among you. I am with you. I grew up the same way. mean, it was kind of like this, you know, Jesus in my mind, even as a kid, is like real and tangible and human and God, I could kind of picture on that throne. But Holy Spirit, like wind.
Like it feels just so ethereal. It feels like trying to like ride a unicorn or grasp a cloud. And so part of it is the nature of that. I think secondly, it is the lack of teaching. I know I had that. It was this emphasis on Jesus, know, somewhat emphasis on God, but Holy Spirit was kind of the third. And part of that is our language. If you look at our hymns and our creeds, what do we say? We say Father, Son, and Spirit. And it's three in one. They are all equal. We know our theology, hopefully, but...
that tertiary landing, that third place, I can't help but my mind goes to, well, must just be a little bit less, because they put Holy Spirit third. And so I think for me, starting to relook, ⁓ especially in the scripture, and the lack of scripture teaching I had, again, when people, I'd ask questions about Holy Spirit, they'd say, you know, go read Acts, Book of Acts, that's the Holy Spirit, quote unquote, book of the Bible. And really,
They're going to Acts 2 in that moment at Pentecost when Holy Spirit, it's kind of like a, it's a culmination of the work that he's been doing, but it's seen as like, this is how the Holy Spirit. The problem with that is if you look at Acts 2 and all of a sudden there's a forceful wind, there's tongues of fire descending, people are speaking in other tongues, they're declaring the glories of God, and 3,000 people are getting saved, you're like, that is amazing, but that is not my everyday. And so,
Meeting or encountering Holy Spirit. I'm not saying Holy Spirit can't use that. beautiful. It's awesome. it's kind of like going to the New Testament or going to Acts 2 and starting there is like showing up on your wedding day and being like, this is, I do. And you're like, but who's this person? And what's the background? And how do we connect? Where's he been? Right. And so that's why the God you need to know the book and the Bible study is taking a look at Holy Spirit throughout the Old Testament. Yes. Because what I'm really trying to do is number one, de-weird.
Holy Spirit and sometimes the way that it's been talked about or taught, just makes us fearful, it makes us scared, but God is not giving him himself, right? This is God, Father, Son, and Spirit. To weird us out, it's not supposed to be uncomfortable. This is supposed to be as normal as possible. And you start to look at how Holy Spirit has been working through the Old Testament, you come to Acts 2, which is kind the big idea of the book, and go, of course it would happen this way. And of course if it would happen that way, and it's been happening, of course that would happen in my life.
And it may not look like and feel like what is precisely expressed in Acts two, but you see all the other ways that's happening in the Old Testament. go, yeah, yeah, I want that. We should all have that. And then the question becomes like, the question isn't like, are you living in step with the spirit, seeking the spirit and the promptings? It's just like, well, why would you not? Why would you not? Yeah. And I mean, the fact that
Acts 2 is not suddenly the Holy Spirit appeared for the first time. That is revolutionary for so many of us. I would even say the Old Testament was used for kind of the blockbuster stories and the New Testament was kind of what I was supposed to live my life based on. And so in that kind of construct, the Holy Spirit talked about in the Old Testament, you know.
I don't recall anybody ever teaching that. Right? And that's what Jack Levinson started to open my eyes like to remember that those who were gathered in the upper room for Pentecost, what did they use to understand what the spirit was doing? They used the Hebrew text. They used the Old Testament. You know, here's the quoting from Joel 2, you know, this is when the spirit we poured out, know, prophesying, dream dreams, you know.
all of this, but they were using the text. So why aren't we? Right, that's so good. Why did nobody tell, why did I have to get this old and nobody told me this? Yes. What are some of the like hidden gems of Holy Spirit in the Old Testament that as you were studying you were like, this is so good. I think one of the beautiful ones, it starts in you know the beginning of Genesis chapter one verse one and
You know, says, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was formless and void, and the darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. So first of all, we know whenever we're reading the Bible, the first time someone is introduced, it matters. Because it's revealing an enormous amount about their character, whether that's Saul, who can't find his own donkeys. You know, I mean, we see that over and over. And so here we get this glimpse that we don't think of the spirit at creation, and yet,
there was the Spirit and hovering over the deep, the Tohu Wawohu, the formless and the void, places that are marked by uncertainty and the unknown. And that's where the Spirit of the Living God would step onto the stage, which suggests to you and I that in the places where we face uncertainty and the unknown.
Holy Spirit is hovering over us. If I can Bible nerd out for just one quick moment. so I love this and I have these in the book, but you know, we see this imagery of hovering and in the Hebrew the word is mer-he-fet and it is a brooding. It is like what an eagle.
does for their young. It can also be translated fluttering. And I love that imagery. One rabbi translates it that for what the Holy Spirit does. And so flutters over the deep, the abyss, the unknown, the uncertainty. But that image of hovering in Deuteronomy 32, 11, that's the way God tends to his children is compared to an eagle that stirs up its nest and hovers over its young.
And years ago, my husband Leif, you know, sweet, tall, beautiful Leif, he is from Alaska. And if you go there, there are eagles everywhere. But God fashioned eagles with these brooding patches where their skin is a little, it's almost like thinner and it can transmit heat over its young. And so in that, that hovering, there is a heat source, there is the protection, there is the provision.
So we see the spirit hovering first, right? Let's change the order of one, two, three, right? Spirit hovers first, then we discover God here is being described as one who is hovering over their young. And then the book of Isaiah, it says, like birds hovering overhead, the Lord Almighty will shield Jerusalem. He will shield it and deliver it. He will pass over it and rescue it. So again, we have the hovering of bird imagery. But then it's not just spirit and father.
It's also Son who takes us up. In the book of Luke chapter 1334, he compares his longing to gather God's children to himself, to the yearning of a hen to gather her young under her wings. So in the midst of our uncertainty and our unknown and the darkness and the chaos of this world, this is what the Spirit of the Living God does.
And that wraps all up into the Trinity because the Trinity Father, Son and Spirit are distinct and yet they are one. ⁓ Quick little insight on the Trinity that's really helped me, because I've always struggled. I've been growing up in Sunday school. Did you have, what did you have, the apple? What did you have? In what sense? Describing the Trinity. Did you get the egg? The egg. You were the egg. Or ice. ⁓ ice. Yeah. Which the analogy falls apart immediately, but we had eggs and ice. Yeah.
Yeah, then nothing will ever contain the beauty and the mystery of, know, the skin of an apple, the core, the seeds. We'll never capture our beautiful, stunning, majestic God. But one word that's really helped me ⁓ is a theological term. It's perichoresis. And if you break it apart, it essentially means to dance with and can be, it's where we get the root of the word choreography. ⁓
in our English language and that the Father, Son and Spirit are living in this mutual dance of submission and admiration and celebration and joy with each other. And so in certain parts of the Bible, we will see one member of the Trinity take the lead. So for instance, in creation, we see God speaking creation into existence, but we know right there, the Spirit is there. And we know in the use of we, Jesus Christ is there.
But you see one taking the lead. And so we see this throughout the Bible, for instance, you know, in the life of Christ, Christ taking the lead, but Father and Spirit are there. And so this happens constantly. And so we are not trying to break out the Spirit, overemphasize the Spirit, but recognize that just as you can talk, you would say, can you talk to God the Father? Yes. Can you talk to Jesus? Yes. Can you talk to the Spirit? Yes. Can you live in relationship with God? Yes. Can you live in relationship with Jesus? Yes. Can you live in relationship with the Spirit? Yes.
And that's not weird. That's not strange. This is the reality of the vibrant life of Christ in its fullness that we are invited into. That's so good. And I think if we're honest, we might also admit that there have been theological streams that have led us to believe that only certain special Christians get to experience the spirit. ⁓
And I hear you saying from the very beginning of scripture, he was there and is available. It isn't like he may or may not show up later. He's not third in line and lagging behind. And that's encouraging. And you talk in the book about paying attention to the whispers and nudges of the spirit. So for someone who
doesn't even know what it would be like to hear those, feel those, sense those. What would be just your pastoral advice for how to begin recognizing Holy Spirit activity? So first on that, for all of you who are either watching or you're listening and you're thinking, don't know what she's people talk about feeling the spirit. I just want to be very, clear. I generally do not feel the spirit. That is not me.
I will go to church services and there'll be a worship leader up there and that person will say, do you just feel the spirit here? And I'm like, Nope, Nope, not at all. I don't know. I literally have no idea what you're talking about. And so if you perhaps are wired like me, I just know I get you. And while I listen that and at times I'll just be honest, a little off putting, cause you're saying, yeah, no, I don't. I must be lesser than I must be. Like our minds don't go to healthy places, but I don't feel the spirit, but I can acknowledge the spirit.
I can choose with my mind to go, the Spirit is here because God is here, Christ is here. And then I'm like, okay, I'm on board with that. can float with that. ⁓ But something recently that my friend Drake, he's a young life leader where we live in Utah and just love him. And I just said, hey, how do you explain Holy Spirit to those who are young, whether in their teens, college, trying to hear the Spirit recognized? And he told me something and this has literally revolutionized my life. He said, Margaret, what I tell them to do, and he says, I do this myself, is I keep a journal.
and I was immediately put off. Okay, I'll just honest, I don't like journaling. And you're probably thinking, Margaret, you're a writer, why don't you like journaling? Because I wrote all day, the last thing I wanna do is write some more. especially handwriting. ⁓ But he said, what I do is I sit down each day and I write one question in my journal of Holy Spirit, just one. And that could be any question. And the questions can circle about identity, purpose, ⁓ questions like, Holy Spirit, who am I?
What are you calling me to? Where do I need to change? What's on your heart? And then he says that one written sentence becomes a prayer prompt throughout the day. And that's basically the focused prayer, because I don't know about you, but I can be a scatter shot in my prayer all over, and I don't even know what's, I just kicked up so much, one.
So keeps coming back through the day and praying that prayer. And he says either that night or the next day, he'll write down any things that he encountered. It's often just like a thought that pops into his head. A sudden conversation he has with somebody who calls and they're talking about it. And he goes back to the question. goes, that's interesting. That happened.
And so all of a sudden he's changing the posture of his life through that one prayer prompt, one question of Holy Spirit to start paying attention. And it's really remarkable. I've started doing that. And a lot of the prayers, because we just have had a lot going on in our life lately, each day I'm a lot of the same question, week after week. You can change them up every day. I'm just like, Holy Spirit, I'm just to keep on knocking. I'm to keep knocking on this one. Holy Spirit, order our steps. Order our steps. And there's just so many things that we're trying to make decisions on.
one by one we'll get this information perhaps from a doctor, this information from a scheduling person, this information from a trip that we weren't sure if we were gonna do, and the dust of our life has begun to clear. And that's not super feely, Holy Spirit, do you know what saying? It's not like big emotional, I felt this thing and God said, no, it's just like, I'm gonna change the posture of my life to be more attentive to you. And I'm gonna expect.
that you are such a good God and you are so faithful and you are so loving and you so desire a relationship and that you are who you say you are. You are the paraclete. You are the helper, counselor, giver of wisdom, advocate. You are the barrister, for those of you who watch too many British shows like I do as your legal advocate. You that you are
not just
business card title. That is who you are and that's what you want to do in my life. So you know what? Sign me up. I want that. I want that. Yeah, the intentionality.
Yeah, I mean, that's so good. Just one. This is the one thing I'm going to pray and then all your attention tends to focus in the way you're right. I can be very scattered and very also just very self focused in what I pray. And I love that intentionality around. I'm going to remain suspicious that you're here and that you're working. ⁓ You talk in the book about ways
to pray and breathe in God's presence as naturally as air. Can you unpack that a little more? how, like what does that look like personally for you? If it's as natural as air, what does that look like? Yeah, you know, in the...
of third, fourth centuries, the desert monks developed breath prayer and that sense of just taking a phrase, you know, one of the most common, ⁓ Jesus, son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner, and just breathing that in part of it and exhaling it as you do it. And what's incredible about that is you can do that with any phrase, you can do that with any scripture. And so in the book for each kind of big idea throughout the chapters, I've turned those into breath prayers. So like, you know, this invitation of the spirit, the beginning breath prayer is simply
Holy Spirit, breathe in, exhale, I want all.
It's very simple, it's very few words, but there's so much packed into that. Because when I'm saying, Holy Spirit, I want all of you, I'm saying, I want all the parts of you that I don't know. I want all the lines that I've drawn about who you are or what I expect you to do in my life. I want you to knock those down. When I say, Holy Spirit, I want all of you, it means that if I want all of you, then you get all of me.
So I want to be somebody who's quick to obey whenever I have that little sense or that little nudge to call somebody, reach out, send the kind text, pick up the phone, send the email, buy the little thing online. And it's amazing, again, these are just, it's so simple, it's so small. I'm not, in the book, I don't ask people to go, like, nobody needs more stuff to do, can we just say that? These are very simple things that can change the posture of your life to go,
So let me give you an example. This is a fun one. you know, I've just been praying this Lord, Holy Spirit, order, order my steps, order my steps. I just want to be attentive. So they had these new purses on Target that were super cute and they were amazing. And so I woke up early in the morning because I knew they were going to sell out. I'm like two online and ordered myself one and I looked at it in a different color and I thought about my friend Janella. And so I thought, okay, I'm just going to order one. Okay. By the way, I don't buy purses for myself. I'm not a real big, I mean, you see me, everything goes.
in my back pocket. ⁓ I don't buy purses for other people. It's just not my thing. But I was just like, looks like Janelle. No feeling from Holy Spirit. No God told me. Jo's just like, that looks like my friend. I'm just going to get this for her. Send her. It finally arrives. Get a text from her, and she literally says, how did you know? I tell you about my Easter meltdown? I was like, no. No, I don't know what you're talking about.
I'd known because we've been friends for over 20 some years, but we talked regularly. But she said her mother had died about a year plus ago. And what she never told me or I never knew was that every year since she was a little girl, her mom would always buy her an Easter dress and an Easter purse. So here she is, I'm about to cry, at her first Easter without her mom.
and all the sadness and all the deep grieving and that. And she bought herself an Easter dress, but financially she couldn't spend the money and couldn't justify it to buy herself another purse. And in the mail arrives the purse that matches her. I mean.
Yeah, right. And I'm not a hero. didn't hear from, I mean, I would tell you clear out, I didn't hear from God. I didn't have a big emotional, I just was like, ⁓ looks like Janelle. It wasn't expensive. I am not a hero in the story. But you've been praying, order my steps. God is the hero. Yeah. And so what we start to see, and then that happens, and so you know what I'm gonna pray the next day? Holy Spirit, order my steps. Yes. Holy Spirit. And when I see something nice or kind, I'm just gonna do it because, yeah, that's who Jesus called me to be. But like, I want that life. I want that life.
And you're telling the story and I'm assuming where it's going and how sweet that you bought her a purse. But like God didn't have to be so kind that you bought the one that matched the dress she bought. Like that's just, it's, yeah. That's so good. I love that. That makes me emotional thinking about what she was going through on Easter and how hard it was probably for her to buy her own dress. And then.
she knows that God sees her in that moment because you were being attentive to the spirit as well. That's good. And this isn't super spiritual, right? Like I'm not saying go fast for 40 days and then develop this emotion. You weren't in the desert in solitude. Yeah. And so, but I think that as we become more attentive by these simple practices, all of a sudden we start seeing the fruit and going, oh.
that is the Jesus-filled, Spirit-led life. I want in on that, because that's really fun. That's really fun. I love that, because you write about just the surprise and delight of encountering Holy Spirit in everyday moments, and that's a perfect example of one, because you weren't thinking.
I'm gonna buy this purse, I'm gonna put it in the mail, and I know that this is a holy moment. Yeah, it's just the rhythm of the everyday. ⁓ Can I give you another one? I would love one. Okay, so another one. So this is one of my sweet friends. I'm gonna change her name just to protect. But we're gonna call her Beth. Beth ⁓ is going through a tough time with her family. They are just at each other's throats. It's awful. It's toward the holidays. It's early December. They're all gonna go out to dinner. Last place Beth wants to be goes to the restaurant.
and she's just like feeling the tension around the table and it's too much and she's like, God, I'm exhausted. I don't feel well. I don't want to be here, but I need your help. Holy Spirit, I need your help. So, since they're praying, he's enduring it and all of a sudden the wait staff comes and the name tag looks a little unusual and she said, what is your name? And the guy says, my name is Hakuna. And she's like,
like Hakuna Matata from the Lion King. And he's like, yeah, my name means no worries. And she kind of giggles and she goes, okay, I got it. Holy spirit. got it. I'm here and you're telling me, don't worry. Don't worry. Don't worry. Okay. I got it. Conversation goes on around the table. Finally, the food comes out. A different server brings it and looks at the name tag. your name is Chinazor.
What does your name mean? And the gal says, ⁓ it means God saves. So she bursts out laughing. We talk about the surprise and the delight of the Spirit. And you're like, I'm in a busy restaurant. I have to be my thing. They're all eutero. I don't want to be here. And here is Holy Spirit literally bringing people who are serving you named. No worries.
God saves. And she said in that moment, she has clung to that as a reminder of God's presence, even in the midst. And so it is so ordinary. It is so every day. You know, we're not talking about.
crazy stuff and we're just talking like just, but we start to pray, Holy Spirit, start paying attention. We start seeing stuff that perhaps we otherwise would have missed. Yeah. Or written off as, you know, strange coincidence or what have you. So you mentioned the everyday and the ordinary and I'm glad because
I would imagine there are people who sense that Holy Spirit is more active or more obvious in other people's lives or experiences, or maybe they seem to be always having these kind of miraculous, you can't make this stuff up kind of encounters. So what would you say to the person who feels like Holy Spirit may be silent in their life if comparatively they look around them and don't
the kind of activity they see in other people's lives. So first of all, I think we need to go back to Psalm 139 and recognize that we were known in the womb. We were all made very, very unique and different. And we were also made neurologically different. And so wouldn't it make sense that the creator of all, that the spirit of the living God would know how to communicate with each of us differently in the ways that we were formed and made?
So it's interesting, have a huge email list and I emailed them a ton of questions about the Holy Spirit. One of questions I asked was how does the Holy Spirit work in your life? And it was fascinating. Some people experience as a thought that pops into their mind that is not their own. For others, it is the scripture coming alive that compels them to go bring in the kingdom is what I call it, to show kindness and love to others. For others, they felt it in their bodies. It was a physical sensation. Others, ⁓ a warmth. ⁓
One gal wrote in and she was like, well, I sense Holy Spirit because whenever I'm lost, I ask Holy Spirit and I suddenly know where to go and to find directions. And I was like, okay, I'm just gonna be honest, was like, that's weird. This is weird. And then I thought about it for another minute and I went, you know what? But I want her on my team. Yeah.
If I'm gonna be part of a community of believers, then who the Spirit is working through, because this is not just individual. The Spirit loves to work through community. We see it, I can point it out, throughout and relationships and whether it's the artisans in the tabernacle, whether we see it in the book of Acts where the Holy Spirit's constantly bringing people together in a room that don't wanna be together. mean, we just see this over and over and over. But like, Holy Spirit is working in this way to bring about God's goodness
to demonstrate the character, the competence, and the kindness of God over and over again. So do not be discouraged that you don't sense Holy Spirit like other people do. I don't. You shouldn't either. What I'm interested in how has Holy Spirit been working in your life and you may not have ever recognized it. And that's why in the book and the Bible study, I provide so many different ways. I mean, I've had people come up to me and like, I had no idea that was Holy Spirit.
over and over recently teaching at a church and taught about I told a story about another gal she lost her spouse I mean just devastating faced her first Mother's Day alone heartbreaking she's in the midst of it again remember Holy Spirit hovers over the deep the uncertainty the unknown the dark the abyss like this is deeply biblical she's in the midst of it it's Mother's Day and all of sudden a white dove comes and sits on her front window in her yard and then comes
her
front window and she's staring at it and she's like lived in this house decades never seen a white dove in her whole life she's looking at this and she says ⁓
you know, am I imagining this? this, so she calls her neighbor. She calls her neighbor, is the white dove there? And Lady Bird's like, yeah, yeah, there's a white dove. Like, you're not imagining, it's not an illusion. So the white dove stays all that day through the night and the next morning. Finally, she's like, you know, changed the posture of her life. Like, God, why did you send a white dove? And she sends Holy Spirit speak to her. Again, not audible voice, thought that pops into her head, which is based in scripture that says, I sent a white dove, my very
best the Holy Spirit to remind you that I will never leave you nor forsake you.
this is what Holy Spirit does. Like who is he? Comfort, counsel, this is it. Can the God of creation use all of creation to draw our hearts, Christ's word and spirit? Yes. But I share that story and a woman comes up to me at the end of hearing it and says, when my sister died, we had a funeral. And when I and the other sisters walked outside of the church after the funeral, there were three white butterflies that were flying overhead.
and kind of flew ahead of us and then landed on our car before we got in and drove away.
And she said, are you saying that the spirit of the living God saw us and met us in that? I would say, I think that the God of creation can use any part of creation to remind you. And so I think one of the things, if we're going to draw it out of just the kind of biblical language, what I see Holy Spirit doing over and over again in people's lives is Holy Spirit in your life and you who don't think Holy Spirit is speaking to you, don't recognize it, don't feel it, don't worry about not feeling it, I don't either.
is
Holy Spirit is constantly reminding you through every part of your life in various parts, Holy Spirit sees you, is with you, loves you, and wants to affirm that you are part of the kingdom and wants to unleash you in that, bringing God's love and service and goodness to a hurting and hopeless world. And so that is the work of the Spirit in your life.
And my hunch is you may be like, I don't. And I'm like, ⁓ no, no, no. Holy Spirit has been hard at work at this. Yeah. I mean, the encouragement, I think, for people who are realizing what a present help.
Holy Spirit is ⁓ and is positioned to be. There's a reason that Jesus said, don't worry that I'm going away. If I don't go away, then the periclete can't come. And so this is good. He's going to guide you into all truth. And I think
What you went through to bring us these words is the power that is possible. It makes perfect sense to me that the enemy of our souls would want to stifle and gag that message because there is...
power available. You know we hear all the time these days all of us believers have the same power inside us that raised Christ from the dead but I think most of us are like that sounds wonderful. I have no idea how to access it. I wouldn't even know where to begin, where to look and you're giving us really tangible practical ways to begin to recognize not find
as though he's missing, but recognize how he's already working. If somebody wants to live a spirit-filled life truly, but feels stuck, what is a next right step that you would suggest for someone who's like, okay, Margaret, I'm in, I believe you, all of this sounds good and right and true and biblical, how do I?
What would be the next right step for someone?
Sorry to be obvious. I would say you've got to do the God you need to know Bible study. I'm sorry. Like it is 12 practical actionable Actually, there's more. I know I cheated I put in more than 12 imagine that But ways to start doing that on a on an everyday level
think we will never hear from Holy Spirit as loud and as clear as precise and concise as when we are spending time in scripture It's good. It is God's megaphone to our world. Don't miss it and how awesome
and God will use a particular verse, even the one with the dove and the woman I just shared, you I will never leave you nor forsake you. And so that is, that expands the, the,
the library, I believe, through which the Holy Spirit can draw on in our lives through scripture to bring to mind, to prompt us, to press us forward. I'm going to give a crazy suggestion. want one that's fun? I can't wait. I learned this from a precious, precious person serving in Southeast Asia. And just totally discouraged, totally just beat down some days. It's hard. Where she lives is incredibly population dense, loud, pollution filled so much. And she says, been here over a decade. There are times I just feel just
overwhelmed and so discouraged. And she says, on those days I asked Jesus for a prize. And I was like, what?
A, I love it because I love that stuff and B, like I have some theological questions. Right, exactly. And she described, she says, on those days, I'll be like, Jesus, I just need a prize. I need a prize. so discouraged. And she says, on those days, there'll be somebody who comes by and will bring a meal. Never been there before, never after. There's days she's so integral. I got my prize. I got my provision. Through that meal, I was reminded God sees me. God loves me. I'm still part of this kingdom. That's the work of the Holy Spirit.
probably working in that person's life to bring the meal or someday she'll just be like, is this making any difference at all? And somebody will come up to her and be like, could you tell me about the Jesus man? And she's like, I got my prize, seen by God, heard by God, loved by God, part of his kingdom. And so I remember being there, mean, that's amazing.
want a prize. I a prize, right? So we're staying at this hotel and Leif and I are big swimmers, as you know. He's going to try to do the straight edge of Bralter this fall, like crazy swimmer. So we go out to swim at the pool and it's raining. And so the pools are empty because that part of that particular area, they don't swim when it's raining. I don't know. Am I going to wet? I don't know. So go out swimming and I decide I'm praying and swimming. And I'm like, well, Jesus, I want a prize. I want a prize. I'm asking for prize. She asked for a prize. I want a prize. And I'm like, what is my prize?
at the bottom of the pool.
And so I start swimming like a Roomba at the bottom of this pool, going back and forth and like searching like, there a piece of jewelry? Is there anything? In the end, I found like two black rocks and a little plastic manatee and I brought him back to life. Like my treasures to my husband, was like, good job. And so by then stopped raining and I'm getting out of the pool and there's three kids sitting there and I brought my treasures, my two rocks and my little mandrake. And I was like, here. And they looked at me.
And I could tell it was like stranger danger, stranger danger. And I was like fair. So I took one and I threw it in the water. One little kids got jumped in and got it. And then the other two saw and I threw the other two and the other two go in. And then they come up with their little now toys to play with. And one of them comes to the edge of the pool little prize seven year old boy with big saucer eyes and just looks up at me goes, thank you.
And I was like, I got my prize. got my part seen by God, heard by God, loved by God, part of the kingdom. Yeah. Like this is the stuff we can't live.
without. And it's not, I love you, I'm in a place in my spiritual journey, my education of the Bible has exceeded my obedience. Right, it's so good. I don't need to memorize one more verse, I'm just gonna say it about God sees me, God hears me. I need the living reality of that in my life and that is what Holy Spirit does. And I don't know, I can't afford to live without.
I need that. I want to finish strong in my faith. I want this reality. I want to be a person who is bringing hope and healing. And I can't do this alone. I can't do it on my own. It's not all my good gosh darn efforts aren't doing it. But when the spirit's brings a permanence and a meaning that is so far beyond anything we could orchestrate or ever hope for.
It's so good. I when people read the God you need to know and do the Bible study, what is your I hope they walk away with blank.
I hope they walk away with this knowledge and this awareness of, Holy Spirit works differently in all of our lives. yeah, that's what the Bible said the Spirit would do. know, like we're all shocked by it. But yeah, it's gonna look different. That no one feels less than because their way is different, that God's uniquely designed them. That whether you're the person who can bring directions to a last group of people, or you're the person who has dreams that are given by the Spirit. Cool, cool, all aboard, all aboard. We need all of us with that awareness of the Spirit.
Rising up and bringing in the kingdom bringing unity which it was Christ prayer just just generally my Christ prayer To this world and so I would hope that it wouldn't just be an individual experience And that's why the Bible study or book clubs are so important because it's a group It's all of us bringing our stories and there's something that happens when we start sharing the stories of what Holy Spirit is doing in our individual lives All of a sudden we're like, oh, I want that in mind. I want to I'm gonna ask Jesus for a prize Jesus send a butterfly or a dove use your creation if you're
the
God of creation to remind me, you see me, you hear me, you love me, I'm part of your kingdom. Like, come on, and then you go, want Holy Spirit, I want all of you. And this is the God we need to know. So good.
Margaret, thank you. Thank you for writing this. Thank you for your obedience. I don't know that unless you've done it, you can ever fully appreciate or understand what it costs to do what you do. And so I just want to say as a grateful recipient, thank you. But thank you from all of us. ⁓
I would imagine for those of you watching and listening, you're thinking, wow, I need that. I want more. I want the book. I want the Bible study. But more than that, I want the activity of Holy Spirit in my life. And what we want to say to you is that is not a pipe dream. That is possible. That is a gift of God to us. And so I will put all of Margaret's information in the show notes.
sure that you follow and read and study and you will not be sorry. Also get all of her other books in Bible studies. There are many and you could spend the next five years doing them and it would be completely worth it. So Margaret thank you. This has been so encouraging for me and I can't wait to see what God's gonna do with this message because it is it is a thirsty world that needs to know the
truth of Holy Spirit and that power that's available to us. So thank you. Thank you, Shannon. All right, everybody, we will see you next time. And in the meantime, be on the lookout for the ways that God is making everything beautiful, including you.