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HUNGRY is THE podcast for Challenger FMCG & Hospitality Founders wanting to pour gasoline on growth.
We chat with the industry BIG HITTERS. We ooze out the HIDDEN success secrets they’ve never told before and dive deep into their gut-wrenching failures, so you avoid them.
We help you grow bigger, faster, stronger.
Over the last 6 years, we’ve chatted to some insane guests on the poddy:
Rory Sutherland, Seth Godin, Jamie Laing, Spencer
Matthews, Tom Kerridge, Sir John Hegarty,
The founders of SOHO House, TRIP, The Devonshire, Tony’s Chocolonely, Vita Coco
Look, I’ll be blunt,
HUNGRY is NOT your normal podcast.
HUNGRY is NOT scripted and sterile Q&A interviews.
HUNGRY is for pretty much no one.
HUNRGY is a deliciously fun, wild and crazy, ADHD rollercoaster of free flowing conversations.
got what it takes?
Buckle up. Strap in.
get ready to… FEED YOUR HUNGER
00:00:00:03 - 00:00:05:24
Unknown
I spent my life fearing failure, which is really probably why I went to prison.
00:00:06:00 - 00:00:11:22
Unknown
The reason we got there in the first place was my ego thinking that I knew better than everyone else, basically believing I was Midas.
00:00:11:23 - 00:00:12:23
Unknown
I was a business God.
00:00:13:02 - 00:00:18:21
Unknown
Hi guys. This week's episode is with Reardon Maynard. It's absolutely wild. He built a massive business.
00:00:18:22 - 00:00:41:10
Unknown
200 million in America, in tech. And then it all went a little bit Pete Tong. He ended up in prison for six years. High security prisons where he saw people beaten to death. This built huge resilience in him. And he developed a program called Mein Fort, which helps entrepreneurs and founders develop. You're not to become super, super resilient.
00:00:41:11 - 00:00:47:10
Unknown
This episode has got so much in it. It's very tactical. It's heartbreaking. It's all me. It's hilarious. You're gonna love it.
00:00:47:10 - 00:00:54:21
Unknown
I started in this place in California. I mean, it's an absolute shithole. I then discovered it was the best that I was going to see.
00:00:54:22 - 00:00:57:13
Unknown
I sort of suffered a full mental collapse
00:00:57:15 - 00:01:04:07
Unknown
within the first six weeks of being in prison, because a lack of hope really crushes the spirit.
00:01:04:07 - 00:01:05:20
Unknown
And I'm afraid to say
00:01:05:21 - 00:01:07:15
Unknown
that's not exclusive to prison.
00:01:07:16 - 00:01:14:10
Unknown
It's all about the questions you ask yourself when you're in that state, because most of what you worry about
00:01:14:12 - 00:01:16:00
Unknown
is stuff you don't control.
00:01:16:01 - 00:01:31:14
Unknown
I call it, and I think this is the least talked about, but most important aspect of personal development. You will need a very differentiated product in the mind of the buyer if they finish their food before you.
00:01:31:15 - 00:01:36:20
Unknown
You are an absolute loser. You shouldn't even be in sales. If there's enough value in the deal,
00:01:36:21 - 00:01:41:01
Unknown
then the deal will close, there's no question.
00:01:41:03 - 00:01:42:02
Speaker 3
Two. One
00:01:42:04 - 00:01:46:12
Speaker 3
ridden. Your story is crazy. You made a lot of money.
00:01:46:13 - 00:01:48:20
Speaker 3
I think it was about 200 mil.
00:01:48:22 - 00:01:52:19
Speaker 2
I didn't make 200 million. I had a company that was okay. Yeah.
00:01:52:21 - 00:01:53:12
Speaker 1
I just just.
00:01:53:16 - 00:01:54:08
Speaker 2
To be very clear.
00:01:54:13 - 00:01:54:17
Speaker 1
For.
00:01:54:17 - 00:01:57:23
Speaker 3
The start of the story.
00:01:58:00 - 00:01:59:05
Speaker 2
Mega man.
00:01:59:06 - 00:01:59:17
Speaker 1
No.
00:01:59:22 - 00:02:00:05
Speaker 3
Okay.
00:02:00:07 - 00:02:01:16
Speaker 2
I've made $200.
00:02:01:17 - 00:02:15:15
Speaker 3
Okay. Okay. Your company made two. Well, company made 200 mill. You then end up in a high security prison in the States for six years. You see someone die there? I think get stabbed. Crazy story.
00:02:15:18 - 00:02:15:22
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:02:15:24 - 00:02:32:24
Speaker 3
Beaten. Beaten to death. It's mad. I think for context, before we jump into this wild story. It'd be good to just understand almost sort of the 30 years leading up to, you know, going into the into the clink. I mean, so talk just talk us through that.
00:02:33:01 - 00:02:37:03
Speaker 2
Well,
00:02:37:05 - 00:02:46:14
Speaker 2
30 years. Yeah. Well, I was, I left school. I'm always hesitant to tell the story because I've told it so many times. But I'll tell it again.
00:02:46:15 - 00:02:49:05
Speaker 3
Just for context, in just three minutes. Yeah. Yeah.
00:02:49:08 - 00:03:10:23
Speaker 2
I left school when I was 16. I really wanted to get out of school quick, as early as they would let me because I was very, very, very focused on money and work and, you know, getting on in life. And so, so I left at 16 and I went and got a job in the city in, in London.
00:03:10:24 - 00:03:37:13
Speaker 2
Not not as you may think, in a bank or something like that, but with a property company. And I was an office junior, you know, running envelopes around the city and making tea and all that sort of stuff. It was an amazing experience, you know, having been in school, which is obviously very you're very protected and your life is, is scheduled, you know, school and then to be free.
00:03:37:14 - 00:03:58:24
Speaker 2
Going into work was an amazing I just absolutely loved it. It was a really good company, very entrepreneurial. It was the 80s. So it was like fucking crazy. And City of London was on fire. You got deregulation. There was so much money around. It was for, you know, for for someone, you know, from Little Village in Surrey, it was like here.
00:03:59:04 - 00:04:00:09
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:04:00:11 - 00:04:23:17
Speaker 2
And and so I really thrived in this sort of sales in sales environment within the agency piece of this property company and started doing some deals. They unbelievably, they let me do some do some like 16.5 or something. And they started letting me go out and do the viewings of all the shit, you know, the shit prospects.
00:04:23:17 - 00:04:53:13
Speaker 2
And that sort of got me really hooked on sales. And then I went to work for a this was a commercial property company. I went to work for a residential property company as an agent. Again, that was amazing. It was Foxton, and at the time it was a small it was relatively small business and really well run. I mean brilliantly run from a sales perspective and a development perspective.
00:04:53:13 - 00:05:02:06
Speaker 2
And that gave me really most of the substance that I then took forward when I went on to with my best friend to sell.
00:05:02:08 - 00:05:16:24
Speaker 3
My own, because I think we definitely get like later on get into the sales stuff because, I mean, when we had lunch coffees, I could talk about that stuff for ages. I think it's really so interesting and I think, I think fucking everything is sales. Getting your kid off swimming sales.
00:05:16:24 - 00:05:17:13
Speaker 1
It is.
00:05:17:14 - 00:05:46:06
Speaker 3
Getting girls number press sales like everything sales. Yeah. So so so working at Foxton, you then go and set up this mobile phone company in London. Yeah. That starts to grow. And then at what point was it touch base. Yeah. So you founded that company and talk me through that kind of just that. Yeah. In a couple of sentences to that journey to to getting that to where it was that 200 million.
00:05:46:08 - 00:05:54:13
Speaker 2
Well, obviously it started very small, started me and my best friend, we set it up.
00:05:54:15 - 00:06:02:17
Speaker 2
No idea what we're doing at all. I mean, literally low even about mobile phones. I mean, so.
00:06:02:18 - 00:06:04:05
Speaker 1
It was.
00:06:04:07 - 00:06:27:24
Speaker 2
A miraculous I just don't know how it all worked out. But we basically set it up in our flat in Wapping and then got on the phones and started calling companies and pitching our dream. And quite a few of them said yes. I mean, we really benefited from the fact that it was new industry.
00:06:28:00 - 00:06:28:07
Speaker 1
Because.
00:06:28:07 - 00:06:31:06
Speaker 3
Yeah, it was a bit like AI. How is AI is now? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:06:31:07 - 00:06:36:19
Speaker 2
And maybe more so. Because everything it was that we were just at.
00:06:36:19 - 00:06:37:16
Speaker 1
The.
00:06:37:17 - 00:06:44:22
Speaker 2
Front of deregulation. And so prior to that everything was a monopoly in telecoms. So everything was BT.
00:06:45:02 - 00:06:45:18
Speaker 1
Yep.
00:06:45:20 - 00:06:46:10
Speaker 2
We then.
00:06:46:14 - 00:06:52:19
Speaker 3
As Margaret Thatcher wasn't it. She came and deregulated the fuck out of everything. And then. Yeah. So it was much easier to make those centrally. Yeah.
00:06:52:20 - 00:06:53:05
Speaker 1
Interesting.
00:06:53:07 - 00:06:54:05
Speaker 2
It's easier for.
00:06:54:07 - 00:06:58:08
Speaker 3
Was Canary Wharf there when when you were in Wapping.
00:06:58:10 - 00:06:59:02
Speaker 2
Yes.
00:06:59:04 - 00:07:01:14
Speaker 3
That just started to sprout up. Yeah. Interesting.
00:07:01:16 - 00:07:14:00
Speaker 2
Yeah. The main but not not as big as it is now. But it was there. Yeah, yeah. But the. Yeah. So we were the beneficiaries of that deregulation.
00:07:14:02 - 00:07:17:12
Speaker 2
It was a bit like shooting fish in a barrel.
00:07:17:14 - 00:07:18:05
Speaker 1
I don't want.
00:07:18:05 - 00:07:45:00
Speaker 2
To make out we were some sort of business gurus or sales geniuses. We were there at the right time. We did have a good proposition. We were really focused on the customer experience and delivering whatever it took, delivering to the to the customer. So and that worked. That helped us a lot because it was a bit of a Wild West industry, the mobile phone industry back then.
00:07:45:02 - 00:07:57:01
Speaker 2
And we decided to focus on businesses. A lot of people were focusing on consumers, and so we just hit the phones and it started gaining traction doing more.
00:07:57:05 - 00:08:06:08
Speaker 3
What would you say? What was like again, maybe getting to the sales stuff now, then we can jump into the prison. But like what was what when you get on the phone, did you have a sales script? Did you?
00:08:06:10 - 00:08:06:19
Speaker 1
I don't.
00:08:06:19 - 00:08:08:02
Speaker 2
Think we were that sophisticated.
00:08:08:04 - 00:08:09:16
Speaker 1
Yeah, I.
00:08:09:16 - 00:08:13:21
Speaker 2
Can't really remember. We must have had. Well, you developed one, don't you?
00:08:13:22 - 00:08:14:01
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:08:14:02 - 00:08:37:02
Speaker 2
I don't think it was as formalized as I would. It certainly wasn't as formalized as it became in later years. We became extremely good at packaging what we did and how we did it, and then training people on that so that we could scale. I mean, it was our that was our thing. Yeah. But at that stage it was just a bunch of jokers mucking.
00:08:37:02 - 00:08:38:07
Speaker 1
A flat.
00:08:38:09 - 00:09:03:23
Speaker 2
And it was great fun. And then seeing, seeing what we could do, you know, and over time we want some clients. And then we got enough business to be able to move office into an office in Holborn and started employing people. And that's when it sort of became a proper business. Before that, when you run a company, if there's a couple of you in your mates and it's not really a business.
00:09:03:24 - 00:09:05:07
Speaker 3
It's it's a lot.
00:09:05:12 - 00:09:29:16
Speaker 2
I'm not being negative about it. Yeah. It's a different because you don't really have to manage things because you're both or however many of you are involved in it are. You got the same agenda and you're very energized. And but once you start employing people, you have a responsibility. And and so we became a proper business and then we did well.
00:09:29:18 - 00:09:58:22
Speaker 2
But the real transformation for us was when we took on this product from AT&T in the US. And they were based, they are or they were not, not anymore, but they are. They were the the beat of America. And so they had this product, which most American companies used. And we took that product on as one of the first partners in the UK.
00:09:58:24 - 00:10:04:05
Speaker 2
And again, it sounds like a genius.
00:10:04:07 - 00:10:28:17
Speaker 2
As most genius businesses moves do sound in retrospect. At the time, I don't think we even thought. I don't think we were connecting any dots or anything about, okay, they've got it in the US. All the US companies are coming over because of deregulation in the city. We'll take that product and we can target the US. That would be what a brilliant business mind we we weren't thinking that.
00:10:28:18 - 00:10:58:24
Speaker 2
We were just thinking, this is a great product. We can flog this. And but it did transpire that lots of American companies, the biggest companies in the world, were coming to London and really growing in London because they had deregulated all of the financial markets. And we became the beneficiaries of that with with amazing accounts, you know, like Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, I mean, any you you choose any major American corporation.
00:10:58:24 - 00:11:02:14
Speaker 2
Around that time, we almost definitely would have dealt.
00:11:02:14 - 00:11:03:11
Speaker 1
With them. Yeah.
00:11:03:12 - 00:11:19:08
Speaker 2
And that then provided us with this multinational client base to exploit in the nicest possible way. And we really exploited it. I mean, we were fucking brilliant at developing accounts and delivering an experience to the client.
00:11:19:08 - 00:11:20:11
Speaker 1
Which.
00:11:20:13 - 00:11:22:20
Speaker 2
Made them want to do more and more with us.
00:11:22:21 - 00:11:23:04
Speaker 3
Amazing.
00:11:23:08 - 00:11:26:09
Speaker 2
Because everyone else was pretty average.
00:11:26:14 - 00:11:42:17
Speaker 3
Yeah, like further like we'll get into that because I think there's we could talk about that for hours. I think it's interesting, but I want to get into so so you've built this big company then in I think you said you're in Starbucks when you're getting arrested, people come rock up with bloody guns.
00:11:42:18 - 00:11:42:24
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:11:43:00 - 00:11:43:16
Speaker 2
Well, they came to.
00:11:43:16 - 00:11:43:18
Speaker 1
The.
00:11:43:18 - 00:11:46:00
Speaker 3
House having like a you having a Frappuccino? Was it.
00:11:46:00 - 00:11:46:15
Speaker 1
Like it.
00:11:46:16 - 00:11:57:03
Speaker 2
Came to the house? But for some reason I was I can't quite I don't quite know how it all worked out. Maybe I blanked it out. But they did come to the house with all their guns and pathetic. I mean.
00:11:57:07 - 00:12:01:07
Speaker 3
What's what's going through your head when you see that? What are the thoughts?
00:12:01:08 - 00:12:14:10
Speaker 2
I couldn't believe it. I mean, I, I had never not turned up for a meeting with the IRS. There is this this idea that somehow I was secretly squirreling tax money. I was not secret.
00:12:14:10 - 00:12:15:13
Speaker 1
I was.
00:12:15:15 - 00:12:46:13
Speaker 2
I was an idiot, no question. You know, I basically used tax money to fund the working capital of the company when we got fucked from a cash flow perspective, not a good idea. And and that led to issues with the company being able to pay, pay its bills. But but I wasn't but but all of our taxes were reported and I was meeting with the IRS regularly, I mean regularly and I even towards the end, when we got to the end, I'd done a deal with them.
00:12:46:15 - 00:13:00:11
Speaker 2
So I had been out of the touch based business because I had done this deal with the IRS and shut everything down and sold off subsidiaries for a year. And so this was really I'd sort of got on with my life and this.
00:13:00:11 - 00:13:01:03
Speaker 1
Was.
00:13:01:08 - 00:13:09:07
Speaker 2
Really out of the blue, and they rock up with all these guns and it's just pathetic. I mean, they're just little people.
00:13:09:08 - 00:13:09:15
Speaker 1
With.
00:13:09:15 - 00:13:14:00
Speaker 2
Their guns. And it is. Just like.
00:13:14:00 - 00:13:14:08
Speaker 1
So.
00:13:14:13 - 00:13:22:24
Speaker 3
Take us into that day. Was it morning? Night was in the summer. 6:00 in the morning. Was it hot? Cold. Like what did it I really want to try and get into.
00:13:22:24 - 00:13:27:22
Speaker 1
The I can't remember.
00:13:27:24 - 00:13:30:14
Speaker 2
Well, every day in Colorado. Sunny.
00:13:30:16 - 00:13:30:18
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:13:30:20 - 00:13:31:02
Speaker 2
So it's.
00:13:31:02 - 00:13:32:21
Speaker 3
Definitely nice day to go to prison then.
00:13:32:21 - 00:13:34:22
Speaker 1
Nice.
00:13:34:24 - 00:13:38:24
Speaker 2
But they.
00:13:39:01 - 00:13:43:05
Speaker 2
They terrorized my family, which is despicable.
00:13:43:07 - 00:13:44:17
Speaker 1
How so?
00:13:44:19 - 00:14:06:16
Speaker 2
They were just arrogant, brandishing guns, you know, they were were very rude to my wife. Scared the children. Now, what they did to me is irrelevant because I had, you know, I messed about with their money, but the way they treated them was just.
00:14:06:18 - 00:14:07:12
Speaker 1
You just.
00:14:07:15 - 00:14:09:15
Speaker 2
I mean, I always referred to it as little people.
00:14:09:15 - 00:14:12:00
Speaker 1
They're just.
00:14:12:02 - 00:14:14:11
Speaker 3
Yeah, tiny cocks, big guns sort of thing.
00:14:14:12 - 00:14:14:17
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:14:14:17 - 00:14:23:15
Speaker 2
And then, you know, they're mostly now ruling the world. Who's governing all. These anyway? We don't want to go into that.
00:14:23:17 - 00:14:25:15
Speaker 1
But,
00:14:25:17 - 00:14:50:18
Speaker 2
You could tell I have a bit. I find it quite difficult to talk about that. Anything to do with the family? I find it difficult because it's. They are not to blame for anything that happened. And so the consequence of my actions on them, obviously, I'm responsible for. But things like that are very upsetting. The rest it cause it's just mind blowingly shocking.
00:14:50:22 - 00:14:54:12
Speaker 2
Yeah. Because you, you know, I'd already settled with them and.
00:14:54:13 - 00:14:57:13
Speaker 3
So they came and got you in Starbucks.
00:14:57:15 - 00:15:00:23
Speaker 2
They, they came to the house. Yeah. And then they came to Starbucks.
00:15:01:04 - 00:15:02:11
Speaker 3
And you're like in the queue.
00:15:02:12 - 00:15:05:03
Speaker 2
Yeah. No, no, because my wife had phoned me and I was.
00:15:05:04 - 00:15:07:22
Speaker 3
So you knew. Yeah. And so and so what.
00:15:08:03 - 00:15:13:06
Speaker 2
Said she said the IRS here said oh tell him I'll come to the office.
00:15:13:08 - 00:15:13:22
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:15:14:02 - 00:15:16:05
Speaker 2
I didn't have any idea what was going on.
00:15:16:06 - 00:15:18:06
Speaker 3
Wow. And she said they've got guns.
00:15:18:07 - 00:15:19:12
Speaker 2
Yeah. Then she's. Yeah. Yeah.
00:15:19:18 - 00:15:24:03
Speaker 3
Fucking out. So what? And then so. And how long are you waiting for? For them to come.
00:15:24:07 - 00:15:24:14
Speaker 2
Minutes.
00:15:24:14 - 00:15:27:06
Speaker 3
Not long. Do you have a cigarette? Yeah.
00:15:27:08 - 00:15:28:02
Speaker 2
Shuffling like.
00:15:28:02 - 00:15:30:06
Speaker 3
Fucking lunacy.
00:15:30:08 - 00:15:31:15
Speaker 2
No, it was awful.
00:15:31:16 - 00:15:36:22
Speaker 3
And then they come up to you. What's the first thing they say?
00:15:36:24 - 00:16:01:22
Speaker 2
I don't know, I can't remember. You're asking me, I don't know, they weren't nasty at all. I mean, they weren't with me. They weren't aggressive or nasty. They were sort of condescendingly happy with themselves. And they, they, they, they all the way in the car to the, to the courthouse, they're basically trying to get you to incriminate yourself.
00:16:01:24 - 00:16:07:20
Speaker 3
Right. And how many of them are there? Six. Six of them. And you're one of these big vans.
00:16:07:21 - 00:16:08:21
Speaker 2
Yeah. And a big fan.
00:16:08:21 - 00:16:09:13
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:16:09:14 - 00:16:12:18
Speaker 2
And they.
00:16:12:20 - 00:16:22:12
Speaker 2
They sort of they talk in an assumptive way about the things that they say you've done is what they want to do is they want to get you for later.
00:16:22:15 - 00:16:23:07
Speaker 3
Yes.
00:16:23:09 - 00:16:27:21
Speaker 2
And you're, you know, you're not really I'm not really with it. I don't even know what's going on. I don't know, you know.
00:16:27:22 - 00:16:28:16
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:16:28:18 - 00:16:33:10
Speaker 2
And so they're very effective at.
00:16:33:12 - 00:16:36:11
Speaker 2
Trying to get you to say things that will incriminate you.
00:16:36:12 - 00:16:38:14
Speaker 3
What were you doing? Just say no. No. Come on.
00:16:38:15 - 00:16:49:12
Speaker 2
No. I was having a nice chat. Why do you. Why didn't you ask me to come to the office? I was just come. You did all this nonsense. We had a nice. We had a nice chat, I mean, I.
00:16:49:17 - 00:16:53:05
Speaker 3
You. You you didn't think you were going to the nic at this point, though?
00:16:53:06 - 00:16:58:09
Speaker 2
I didn't think I, I couldn't really I didn't know why they were taking me in even.
00:16:58:10 - 00:16:59:17
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:16:59:19 - 00:17:02:11
Speaker 2
Because I'd done all this is a year ago.
00:17:02:12 - 00:17:03:14
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it makes sense.
00:17:03:14 - 00:17:15:04
Speaker 2
Closed. I'm on with my life. I mean, I'm still deeply scarred by the failure of the business. Deeply. I mean, because I'd let so many people down.
00:17:15:06 - 00:17:22:01
Speaker 3
But how do the scars bubble up today? Like, what does that feel like?
00:17:22:03 - 00:17:35:14
Speaker 2
Well, I think a lot of the work that I did when I was in prison mentally was to deal with those things, you know, those perceptions of myself which had developed as a consequence of these events.
00:17:35:15 - 00:17:37:17
Speaker 3
What were those events and what were those?
00:17:37:19 - 00:18:00:10
Speaker 2
Well, the events being this sort of failure, you know, I spent my life fearing failure, which is really probably why I went to prison, because I refused to accept that the company was failing and I didn't want anyone to see me failing. And so I basically kept it going to long, used money from everywhere to keep it going.
00:18:00:11 - 00:18:07:19
Speaker 2
And then and then ultimately it did fail. But but I feared failure so much because I didn't want the ego, isn't it? And it's.
00:18:08:00 - 00:18:14:05
Speaker 3
Were you driven more? I'm driven by a fear of failure more than like a much more happy happiness and success.
00:18:14:05 - 00:18:16:06
Speaker 2
I think most successful people.
00:18:16:08 - 00:18:21:03
Speaker 3
Yeah, it's like, do you think you can actually build something without like.
00:18:21:04 - 00:18:22:08
Speaker 2
You don't think you can actually.
00:18:22:09 - 00:18:23:00
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:18:23:01 - 00:18:28:07
Speaker 2
Well, I don't know that. I don't know that. I mean, different people have different motivations.
00:18:28:09 - 00:18:31:01
Speaker 3
But I think fear sharpens the sword. Yeah.
00:18:31:02 - 00:18:39:03
Speaker 2
But lets you get through the shit. Yeah, but it also is dangerous because it makes you go too far.
00:18:39:05 - 00:18:40:00
Speaker 3
Too far.
00:18:40:01 - 00:18:42:15
Speaker 2
Well, in my case, I should have stopped.
00:18:42:17 - 00:18:46:15
Speaker 3
And what? So what was why was it? Why was the business tanking at that point?
00:18:46:16 - 00:19:13:19
Speaker 2
Because the global financial crisis hit, which was very consequential. For what? For every business, really. But we were dealing with a lot of the world's top companies, and they froze their budgets. So a lot of the deals we were working on just disappeared, and we were growing super quickly at the time, you know, like 30 or 40% quarter on quarter.
00:19:14:00 - 00:19:27:10
Speaker 2
And that was great when everything was flowing because you've got the cash flow to support it. But when everything stops, when the music stops, you notice that you don't have quite enough chairs.
00:19:27:11 - 00:19:28:00
Speaker 3
Wow.
00:19:28:06 - 00:19:38:15
Speaker 2
That's what happened. And so that's when I started sort of moving money around. And that some of that money was IRS
00:19:38:20 - 00:19:43:09
Speaker 2
money and they weren't happy about that.
00:19:43:11 - 00:19:53:02
Speaker 3
And then so then you've got this. Was it kind of like ego and hubris? Do you think that you just you wanted just to keep on chugging. You just didn't want to be seen to fail?
00:19:53:03 - 00:20:16:16
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's totally ego. Yeah. Interesting to get the the reason we got there in the first place was my ego thinking that we could keep expanding, keep expanding, keep expanding, and, you know, not really taking any notice of the numbers, thinking that I knew better than everyone else and basically believing I was a I was Midas, you know, I was a business God.
00:20:16:18 - 00:20:17:15
Speaker 3
Why not?
00:20:17:17 - 00:20:34:01
Speaker 2
I thought, you know, when someone said to me, actually probably don't need to own 52 officers this week. I think in my head I think, yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Great. Yeah. Fucking idiot. And you sort of get you develop this.
00:20:34:03 - 00:20:38:18
Speaker 3
Which is which. But there's evidence to prove that previously what you have done has turned to gold.
00:20:38:20 - 00:20:39:22
Speaker 2
Yes, but.
00:20:39:23 - 00:20:41:03
Speaker 3
So I understand the hubris.
00:20:41:04 - 00:20:44:11
Speaker 2
Yeah. You do get.
00:20:44:13 - 00:20:52:00
Speaker 2
Yeah. It's a bit like I suppose it's a it's like gambling, isn't it? You, you win a little bit and then. Oh okay. I'll put a bit more on.
00:20:52:01 - 00:20:52:09
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.
00:20:52:13 - 00:21:11:19
Speaker 2
And then. Oh okay. I'll put a bit more. And what you need is someone to say hold on, take some off the table or keep it for a rainy day. And then you need the mind to actually accept that advice. I had a lot of advice. You know, I was working with very capable people.
00:21:11:19 - 00:21:16:13
Speaker 3
And what was the best advice you ignored, like in a sentence?
00:21:16:14 - 00:21:37:07
Speaker 2
Well, anything associated with capitalization. We were totally undercapitalized, and anything associated with growth, physical growth, because I had an unlimited view of our ability to grow physically.
00:21:37:08 - 00:21:38:15
Speaker 3
When you say physically, what do you mean?
00:21:38:17 - 00:21:41:08
Speaker 2
I mean, more people, more locations.
00:21:41:09 - 00:21:43:13
Speaker 3
As a more offices, offices. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:21:43:17 - 00:21:48:04
Speaker 2
So that, you know, so that you can support more, more business.
00:21:48:05 - 00:21:49:18
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:21:49:20 - 00:22:00:09
Speaker 2
And I, I, I had no link between that. This is going to sound absolutely ridiculous. I had no link between that and the finances.
00:22:00:10 - 00:22:01:05
Speaker 3
Right.
00:22:01:06 - 00:22:01:24
Speaker 2
In my head.
00:22:02:00 - 00:22:02:14
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:22:02:15 - 00:22:14:12
Speaker 2
I, I worked on the principle that if you build it, they will come. And that's because I had watched Field of Dreams with Kevin Costner.
00:22:14:14 - 00:22:28:11
Speaker 2
And and to be fair, it had worked to your point. It had worked. Yeah, but it was always edgy. I mean, we were always on the edge. I was always trying to find money.
00:22:28:12 - 00:22:29:22
Speaker 3
I feel like that was this.
00:22:29:23 - 00:22:30:04
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:22:30:05 - 00:22:36:06
Speaker 3
Do you? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like I'm constantly just, like, hustling like a mad fucker. Just. But I like the buzz of it.
00:22:36:07 - 00:22:37:01
Speaker 2
It is like that.
00:22:37:02 - 00:23:04:05
Speaker 3
It's a it's adrenaline. Yeah. It's like. It's like death metal. Like I couldn't do sit in a, like, my brother's a lawyer. And like, when he works from home, I see him on these zoom calls, and, you know, I don't have any fucking Monday meetings. I'm not less. Let's go. Right. And it's like, so how do you make end and and and so then let's go through this report and it's like, it's quite like I probably should have a bit more sort of systems in place when.
00:23:04:05 - 00:23:05:04
Speaker 2
You will.
00:23:05:06 - 00:23:07:16
Speaker 3
Yeah I don't know. No. It was boring though isn't it.
00:23:07:16 - 00:23:09:11
Speaker 2
Well if you grow you will.
00:23:09:12 - 00:23:09:19
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:23:09:19 - 00:23:13:01
Speaker 2
Yeah that's one of the downsides of growth. Yes it is.
00:23:13:02 - 00:23:14:11
Speaker 3
Yeah. It takes the fun out of it doesn't it.
00:23:14:11 - 00:23:40:08
Speaker 2
Yeah. Well it's a different it's just different. Different. That's the other thing. The other that's one of the things I've learned is that there are different people for different stages in a company life. I'm really good at the beginning and maybe just a little bit, but I'm no good once it's established. Yeah, you should really just fire me there and then.
00:23:40:09 - 00:23:41:03
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:23:41:07 - 00:24:00:18
Speaker 2
I'm not good at the, you know, the the managing of an organization is a real skill. You know, I within touch base. We had some really brilliant operators. Brilliant. And they were really responsible for the success of the company.
00:24:00:20 - 00:24:13:18
Speaker 2
I was just very good at, you know, putting a vision together, articulating that vision, getting people to get excited about it, getting clients to buy into it.
00:24:13:23 - 00:24:16:14
Speaker 3
Sales and everything. Everything is so.
00:24:16:18 - 00:24:39:23
Speaker 2
Leadership and setting, you know, the culture of the organization. But, you know, but I should have it's always easy to look in retrospect, I should have definitely handed it over to someone who knows who really got joy out of running a business. And there's lots of those people. Those are the people you see running these extraordinary big companies.
00:24:39:24 - 00:24:47:22
Speaker 2
And it's quite unusual for for a starter to be to be able to do the later bit.
00:24:47:23 - 00:24:48:15
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:24:48:16 - 00:24:53:05
Speaker 2
Some people can I mean you look I suppose but it's unusual.
00:24:53:07 - 00:24:57:23
Speaker 3
So then, so then first day in prison. Right. Talk me through that.
00:24:57:24 - 00:24:59:10
Speaker 2
Yeah. That was horrific.
00:24:59:10 - 00:25:04:15
Speaker 3
So you wake up at your house or are you in the jail?
00:25:04:16 - 00:25:11:19
Speaker 2
No, I was with my brother because they put me in this place in California, and he lived in California. So I stayed with him the night before, and he drove me up there.
00:25:11:20 - 00:25:16:24
Speaker 3
What were you. What were. You what was your last dinner?
00:25:17:01 - 00:25:20:23
Speaker 2
Probably in and out. Burger.
00:25:21:00 - 00:25:24:03
Speaker 3
I've never actually had one. Apparently they're banging. They're really good.
00:25:24:05 - 00:25:25:00
Speaker 2
You need one.
00:25:25:01 - 00:25:25:16
Speaker 3
Really?
00:25:25:17 - 00:25:26:08
Speaker 2
Everyone needs.
00:25:26:12 - 00:25:29:19
Speaker 3
Oh, mate. Like, I don't know why they don't fucking launch in the UK.
00:25:29:20 - 00:25:35:09
Speaker 2
No. Well, they got this policy about not being too far from the distribution. Yeah, they never freeze anything.
00:25:35:10 - 00:25:37:24
Speaker 3
It's clever though, because it keeps its the scarcity of the business.
00:25:38:00 - 00:25:40:19
Speaker 2
It's very clever. They are expanding a bit more now.
00:25:40:20 - 00:25:51:16
Speaker 3
Wait, so you're starting in and out? I don't no. Have you got a milkshake with you? Yeah. Gone for long. I feel so sorry for you. You just got. And what? What are you saying to your brother?
00:25:51:17 - 00:25:52:22
Speaker 2
Like.
00:25:52:24 - 00:25:53:20
Speaker 3
What did he say to.
00:25:53:20 - 00:25:59:13
Speaker 2
You, Brother David? He was.
00:25:59:15 - 00:26:01:09
Speaker 2
I mean, what do you say? Really?
00:26:01:10 - 00:26:02:22
Speaker 3
That's what I'm trying to work out.
00:26:02:22 - 00:26:13:22
Speaker 2
I was just trying to be totally normal. I was. I must have just been in denial. I'm good at denial. At denial?
00:26:14:01 - 00:26:18:01
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:26:18:03 - 00:26:20:15
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's a horrible thing. I mean.
00:26:20:17 - 00:26:26:08
Speaker 3
I'm just. I'm just trying to like. Like you're in and out. Burger. You go home, you're like, night, mate. See you tomorrow, David.
00:26:26:09 - 00:26:26:13
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:26:26:15 - 00:26:27:12
Speaker 3
He's picked.
00:26:27:14 - 00:26:30:20
Speaker 2
We'll get up in a minute. Drive you up there and then.
00:26:30:21 - 00:26:33:14
Speaker 3
What closes you put on. So I.
00:26:33:16 - 00:26:37:14
Speaker 2
Purposely put shitty clothes on because I knew I wasn't getting them back.
00:26:37:15 - 00:26:38:04
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:26:38:05 - 00:26:53:21
Speaker 2
And I had nothing on me, I had no oh, I had a wallet, no envelope with. I think it's $200 cash which you're allowed to take in. And then they put it on your account so that you can buy stuff like toiletries and stuff.
00:26:53:22 - 00:26:58:08
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:26:58:10 - 00:27:03:13
Speaker 2
And I was in some shitty clothes, and then he drove me up there.
00:27:03:15 - 00:27:12:18
Speaker 3
What time was. What time are you going to prison? I like it sounds like you're just getting dropped to, you know, you're dropping a kid off to school, but. Yeah. No, it's like. But, like, what is it? Like? You have to.
00:27:12:18 - 00:27:13:19
Speaker 2
Be there any time.
00:27:13:20 - 00:27:16:09
Speaker 3
Checking, any time it.
00:27:16:11 - 00:27:17:03
Speaker 2
Is checking.
00:27:17:05 - 00:27:18:20
Speaker 3
And they actually call it check it.
00:27:18:21 - 00:27:19:03
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:27:19:05 - 00:27:20:07
Speaker 3
They check it.
00:27:20:09 - 00:27:27:12
Speaker 2
Out and they or intake, they actually call it. Yeah. They
00:27:27:14 - 00:27:46:19
Speaker 2
I think they advise that you go in at two or something. Anyway, I ignored the advice because I just thought I'd better get this over with. I can't exist, I said I knew that going in, you know, that was going to be it. But I also thought, fucking. I can't put up with waiting anymore. I've got to get this.
00:27:46:19 - 00:27:48:10
Speaker 2
Yeah. I was so nervous.
00:27:48:10 - 00:27:57:14
Speaker 3
Yeah. I was going to say like, what's the feeling in your tummy? What's the thoughts in your head as your brothers driving you along the freeway? Whatever.
00:27:57:16 - 00:28:18:06
Speaker 2
If it's impossible to articulate. Yeah, I mean, I, I remember having a complete breakdown when I got into the, the, the holding cell. So you go in, you go through, you know, you go through metal detectors and, and then they strip you.
00:28:18:06 - 00:28:20:24
Speaker 3
And how many other people is it like going through passport security.
00:28:21:00 - 00:28:21:12
Speaker 2
On my own?
00:28:21:13 - 00:28:23:22
Speaker 3
You're on your own. So it wasn't. That's okay.
00:28:23:23 - 00:28:26:20
Speaker 2
Fortunately, it was just me and then.
00:28:26:21 - 00:28:38:01
Speaker 3
And what's this? Sorry. I just love to try and paint the picture. What it felt like. What's the smell of the prison? What's it. Is it dark walls? Is it like what? What is it? Yeah. What is like?
00:28:38:02 - 00:28:44:11
Speaker 2
Like it's like a bit like a. Dystopian book. Manky hospital. Yeah.
00:28:44:16 - 00:28:49:08
Speaker 3
Stinks of, like, dead feet thing. Oh, fuck. Yeah. Yeah.
00:28:49:10 - 00:29:18:02
Speaker 2
But at that point, you haven't really got that when you get to the actual unit. It's fucking awful. I mean, it's like full on. If I started in this place in California, which is an immigration prison for immigrants, right. Primarily immigrants, a private prison. So for profit, you can imagine. I mean, it's an absolute shithole, but I, I then discovered it was the best that I was going to see.
00:29:18:03 - 00:29:34:15
Speaker 2
So I get in this, I think it's fucking awful. And, and then as the years go on and they moved, I went to five prisons. This was the best one I went to. But at the time it was horrific. So you get into the unit and there's.
00:29:34:16 - 00:29:36:14
Speaker 3
The units yourself or the units like the.
00:29:36:14 - 00:29:50:22
Speaker 2
Prison dorm. It's a door. First one, some prisons have cells, some prisons have dorms. I was in a dorm to start with, and that's 140 men in one room.
00:29:50:24 - 00:29:56:16
Speaker 3
And what's the first thing you get into yourself? What's the first thing you did?
00:29:56:18 - 00:29:59:09
Speaker 2
You get there. You get accosted when you get there.
00:29:59:11 - 00:29:59:17
Speaker 3
What does.
00:29:59:17 - 00:30:02:04
Speaker 2
That mean? Not you get across.
00:30:02:06 - 00:30:02:22
Speaker 3
By who?
00:30:03:02 - 00:30:09:23
Speaker 2
People who want to know. Well, that's not fair. They put you to your bunk first, and you always get the bunk.
00:30:09:24 - 00:30:12:05
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah. Your guy? Yeah, yeah.
00:30:12:07 - 00:30:46:09
Speaker 2
And so my bunk is right next to the toilets, right? Fucking stinks. And it's a top bunk because top bunks are the worst. And it's in a, an area basically where all, all the losers are. Because if they weren't, they would have been moved out by then. So it's not a good scene. Then you get approached by people to find out where you, which gang you're with, which group and I, I had no idea.
00:30:46:10 - 00:30:49:10
Speaker 2
I mean, I had no idea, of course, I mean.
00:30:49:11 - 00:30:50:11
Speaker 3
Yeah, how would you.
00:30:50:12 - 00:30:59:15
Speaker 2
Yeah. It's just so alien to me. So I'm like. And also, I'm completely shitting myself. I mean, like, on a scale, 1 to 10, a thousand. Yeah. Because I think.
00:30:59:16 - 00:31:02:24
Speaker 3
You've gone past the point of touching cloth. Yeah.
00:31:03:01 - 00:31:05:06
Speaker 2
Everyone think everyone's trying to roger me.
00:31:05:07 - 00:31:06:17
Speaker 3
I think.
00:31:06:19 - 00:31:08:08
Speaker 2
You know, you have all these.
00:31:08:09 - 00:31:20:08
Speaker 3
You seen at the end of the guys getting Roger at the end of that leg, and he goes, it's quite nice, actually. Are there in prison? I think it's fucking hilarious.
00:31:20:10 - 00:31:23:14
Speaker 2
I had all these images from prison from films.
00:31:23:15 - 00:31:26:06
Speaker 3
Yeah, like Shawshank Redemption. Yeah. You're like.
00:31:26:08 - 00:31:28:21
Speaker 2
Break pocket.
00:31:28:23 - 00:31:36:22
Speaker 3
T-Bag are what? What a great character that is. My god. Wait, so so then so so they basically they come up to you.
00:31:36:24 - 00:31:50:12
Speaker 2
So they come up to you and they say, you know, which they ask you which who do you run with? Right. And I said, I mean, I did another podcast and I told this story, but I said.
00:31:50:14 - 00:31:55:21
Speaker 2
I was so naive. I said, I haven't been running yet.
00:31:55:23 - 00:31:57:13
Speaker 3
No, no more of a jogger.
00:31:57:15 - 00:32:01:09
Speaker 2
No. Then they said.
00:32:01:11 - 00:32:09:09
Speaker 2
What car are you in? I said, I'm not in any car. Yeah. And what they mean is who do you ride with? So what car are you in?
00:32:09:10 - 00:32:10:05
Speaker 3
I said, what gang?
00:32:10:10 - 00:32:26:21
Speaker 2
Gang? Yeah. And I said, and they said no, no, no. What what gang are you in? I said, no, no. What group are you in? And I said, I'm not with any group. I've said, I'm planning to have a look around and then I'll choose my girl. I mean, he's looking at me like I'm genuinely mental.
00:32:26:23 - 00:32:27:21
Speaker 3
Who was this guy?
00:32:27:22 - 00:32:33:12
Speaker 2
He was. He was a very nice Mexican chap.
00:32:33:14 - 00:32:34:13
Speaker 3
Old, young?
00:32:34:17 - 00:32:36:03
Speaker 2
No. Sort of 30 ish.
00:32:36:04 - 00:32:37:12
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:32:37:14 - 00:32:42:11
Speaker 2
And he could see that I was a complete novice. Yeah. And he was, he was really nice.
00:32:42:11 - 00:32:44:04
Speaker 3
So he was, he was he in the nick for.
00:32:44:08 - 00:32:47:13
Speaker 2
I don't know, you don't really ask people. You're not meant to ask them.
00:32:47:17 - 00:32:49:16
Speaker 3
It's that interesting. Yeah. Interesting.
00:32:49:17 - 00:32:57:17
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean yeah you generally you don't. I certainly never asked people and I was told not to ask people.
00:32:57:18 - 00:33:06:05
Speaker 3
That's so interesting. I wasn't I wouldn't expect that. So I thought you'd be sat in your bunker, bunk beds, been like, yeah, you know, I did murder, I shut up, some.
00:33:06:05 - 00:33:11:17
Speaker 2
People might offer it, and if they do, that's fine. But people offer it up. Yeah, but you wouldn't ask.
00:33:11:18 - 00:33:13:11
Speaker 3
Interesting. Yeah. What?
00:33:13:11 - 00:33:14:06
Speaker 2
So I quite like.
00:33:14:06 - 00:33:15:09
Speaker 3
That.
00:33:15:11 - 00:33:19:02
Speaker 2
Because I think if you knew, it would be difficult to exist.
00:33:19:06 - 00:33:20:20
Speaker 3
Yes.
00:33:20:22 - 00:33:25:13
Speaker 2
You definitely know if they're a pedophile, they have a totally different.
00:33:25:14 - 00:33:27:15
Speaker 3
If you're a pedo, what happens in you?
00:33:27:15 - 00:33:34:06
Speaker 2
Basically, you're segmented and on the edge of your seat constantly.
00:33:34:08 - 00:33:34:21
Speaker 3
Really?
00:33:34:22 - 00:33:35:09
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:33:35:10 - 00:33:37:08
Speaker 3
Did you see any pedophiles in there?
00:33:37:13 - 00:33:41:03
Speaker 2
Oh my God. My last one was a pedo prison.
00:33:41:05 - 00:33:58:08
Speaker 3
In a video press. Sorry, I shouldn't laugh. No no no no no no no no. You know. No no. You know, when you were saying you went from like the one in LA. Well, California was bad. You said you said he got progressively bad, but I didn't know there was a pedo prison.
00:33:58:09 - 00:34:08:04
Speaker 2
Yeah. It was like, I don't know whether it was. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not making that up. It was, it was like 80, 70%
00:34:08:06 - 00:34:21:21
Speaker 3
What's the what's the what's the bit about humanity? You learned that you could only learn and understand by being in prison, like anyone in the outside world would not understand it.
00:34:21:23 - 00:34:35:06
Speaker 2
I think the most amazing thing I observed is how we how natural hierarchy forms in. When you throw people together, you know, like Lord of the flies.
00:34:35:07 - 00:34:36:08
Speaker 3
I was gonna say Lord of the flies.
00:34:36:09 - 00:35:00:08
Speaker 2
Like that. And it is so interesting to watch because, I mean, obviously I was with men, so I can I can only talk for a group of men in this instance, but I don't know whether it's the same with women. But you throw them in the room in the, in the environment, it's totally unregulated. And these are all people who hate structure and rules.
00:35:00:10 - 00:35:25:14
Speaker 2
And immediately what they do is they create structure and rules and in the form of a hierarchy. And that was the most amazing thing to see was, was how how structured it was, not by the system. The system has structure, you know, like you can only move every hour, ten minutes in every hour. It has loads of rules about how you should operate.
00:35:25:14 - 00:35:34:01
Speaker 2
But the real structure in a prison comes from the prisoners. Yes. And the rules associated with surviving in that environment.
00:35:34:01 - 00:35:49:06
Speaker 3
And it's almost our human when you're when everything is stripped away from you and you're put together with a group of people and humans. It's your it's our innate desire to be have like, like ultimately like chimps, like hierarchies and.
00:35:49:06 - 00:35:51:23
Speaker 2
Yeah, leaders and followers. Yeah. And it's.
00:35:52:01 - 00:35:58:16
Speaker 3
And so how does that actually work on a day to day basis. Is it like, is it like, you know fucking teabag with his pocket out. Really.
00:35:58:16 - 00:35:59:00
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean.
00:35:59:01 - 00:36:00:05
Speaker 3
It is. So how did it form.
00:36:00:06 - 00:36:06:07
Speaker 2
Like level. That is. But there's a within the group you're assigned your group.
00:36:06:08 - 00:36:07:12
Speaker 3
So what group were you in.
00:36:07:14 - 00:36:28:04
Speaker 2
The whites. It's all basically race based. In the first one there was they did have in the first one because it was an immigration prison. It wasn't an immigration prison. It was a prison made up of immigrants, of which I was one, because of course, I'm not American. Yeah. And.
00:36:28:06 - 00:36:42:01
Speaker 2
In that prison they had groups, but all all of the Mexican and South American gangs, they were groups. And then then they had us, which were the others we were called the others.
00:36:42:03 - 00:36:42:19
Speaker 4
That was like.
00:36:43:00 - 00:36:46:19
Speaker 2
We were like a sort of merry band of oddballs.
00:36:46:20 - 00:36:47:14
Speaker 3
You're right.
00:36:47:16 - 00:37:09:23
Speaker 2
We had some Russians, some Israelis. Who else do we have? Basically everyone who wasn't in the main groups were in the others. Yeah. And but in the real prisons, it's basically done on race, right?
00:37:10:00 - 00:37:12:13
Speaker 2
And so you you join the whites. Yeah.
00:37:12:14 - 00:37:16:00
Speaker 3
And and then how how does the leader form?
00:37:16:05 - 00:37:21:10
Speaker 2
Well, I wasn't privy to that because I turn up and then it's already in place.
00:37:21:11 - 00:37:25:11
Speaker 3
And what was your what was your leader in one of the whites.
00:37:25:13 - 00:37:32:00
Speaker 2
One of them. He was a he was a fearsome.
00:37:32:02 - 00:37:35:18
Speaker 3
Fearsome man. That's such a beautifully polite British way of putting it.
00:37:35:19 - 00:37:36:00
Speaker 2
No.
00:37:36:00 - 00:37:37:13
Speaker 3
He was lunatic.
00:37:37:14 - 00:37:43:03
Speaker 2
Everyone shit scared of it. And I don't mean everyone in our group. I mean in the whole prison.
00:37:43:04 - 00:37:44:07
Speaker 3
So least you had a good leader.
00:37:44:07 - 00:37:50:07
Speaker 2
It's brilliant. Really edgy. I mean, unhinged, like.
00:37:50:08 - 00:37:53:09
Speaker 3
Okay, I need to know what is he told?
00:37:53:09 - 00:37:56:05
Speaker 2
No, he was no, he was quite tall, but he was massive.
00:37:56:06 - 00:38:01:16
Speaker 3
He was unit hench. Yeah, yeah. And tattoos or.
00:38:01:22 - 00:38:09:05
Speaker 2
Lots of tattoos. Formidable. Incredibly strong.
00:38:09:07 - 00:38:11:10
Speaker 3
Like strong, physically, physically strong.
00:38:11:10 - 00:38:18:04
Speaker 2
And also used to do the most incredible yoga. I mean, he'd been in he had his sentence was like 40 years.
00:38:18:05 - 00:38:22:02
Speaker 3
What do you know what he'd done or he didn't ask?
00:38:22:04 - 00:38:25:00
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think he'd killed six people.
00:38:25:02 - 00:38:26:09
Speaker 3
Fuck me.
00:38:26:13 - 00:38:28:14
Speaker 2
Of a of a rival gang.
00:38:28:16 - 00:38:30:19
Speaker 3
In somewhere in America. Yeah.
00:38:30:21 - 00:38:32:07
Speaker 2
I don't know that for a fact.
00:38:32:08 - 00:38:40:02
Speaker 3
What, like this may sound like a really crazy question, but, like, what leadership lessons did you take from him, if any?
00:38:40:04 - 00:38:46:08
Speaker 2
I'm not sure I took any leadership lesson, I mean.
00:38:46:10 - 00:38:52:05
Speaker 2
Maybe not. Maybe to be uncompromising.
00:38:52:07 - 00:38:54:05
Speaker 2
He was totally.
00:38:54:07 - 00:38:55:10
Speaker 3
Give me an example of that.
00:38:55:11 - 00:39:06:04
Speaker 2
Well, I mean, you just you never fucked with him for one, not even in jest, because the switch might turn and you would be pummeled. I mean.
00:39:06:06 - 00:39:07:15
Speaker 3
Did you ever see him?
00:39:07:17 - 00:39:29:00
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, he would. There was this one guy that refused to yield to him, which was so illogical. I mean, my instinct always. You got to work out the lay of the land, and then you you fit in with it, you know, you sort of. Your behavior should, reflect the lay of the land, you know?
00:39:29:03 - 00:39:31:15
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:39:31:16 - 00:39:41:20
Speaker 2
Otherwise, you're in for a really trouble. I mean, this is true of life, not just prison. Yes. Anyway, so this guy, he's. He refused to yield.
00:39:41:22 - 00:39:46:07
Speaker 3
And he was this guy. Was he, like, a puckish little.
00:39:46:08 - 00:39:48:13
Speaker 2
He was a little Italian guy.
00:39:48:15 - 00:39:50:18
Speaker 3
And again.
00:39:50:21 - 00:39:53:17
Speaker 2
He was quite big. I mean, he wasn't little. He was physically quite big.
00:39:53:18 - 00:39:54:20
Speaker 3
How old were these guys?
00:39:54:23 - 00:40:03:22
Speaker 2
He was about 40, I suppose. But he.
00:40:03:24 - 00:40:06:18
Speaker 2
You know, some people just can't bear yielding.
00:40:06:20 - 00:40:07:22
Speaker 3
Yielding as.
00:40:07:24 - 00:40:16:24
Speaker 2
Sort of giving in, giving way. Yeah. To, to someone else, you know, like, it's like the sort of, So this little weakness.
00:40:17:02 - 00:40:19:10
Speaker 3
This Italian guy want to be the head guy.
00:40:19:11 - 00:40:20:16
Speaker 2
Doesn't want to be that guy. No.
00:40:20:17 - 00:40:20:20
Speaker 3
It.
00:40:20:20 - 00:40:21:14
Speaker 2
Just wouldn't like that.
00:40:21:15 - 00:40:23:01
Speaker 3
No, he just wouldn't give in to it.
00:40:23:03 - 00:40:41:20
Speaker 2
He just doesn't. So if the head guy would say, I'm not going to use any names because it's not fair. Okay. But if the head guy would say. The thing about being in the gangs, you've got to do what you're told. That's the whole idea. The quid pro quo is we'll stop you getting raped, your food being stolen.
00:40:41:20 - 00:41:04:20
Speaker 2
We'll look after you. If anyone causes you any trouble, we'll we'll collectively, we'll take care of it. That's the deal. But you have to do what we tell you. That's the deal. And so I accepted that happily. As long as they didn't make me do anything terrible, I, I wouldn't do. I said on the first day I said, I won't.
00:41:04:21 - 00:41:06:21
Speaker 2
So we came up with a little agreement.
00:41:06:21 - 00:41:09:00
Speaker 3
But what was the agreement?
00:41:09:02 - 00:41:15:06
Speaker 2
Well, only that I would do the negotiation stuff rather than anything.
00:41:15:10 - 00:41:16:22
Speaker 3
You negotiate with the other gangs?
00:41:16:23 - 00:41:17:14
Speaker 4
Yeah.
00:41:17:18 - 00:41:19:17
Speaker 2
Rather than anything nasty.
00:41:19:19 - 00:41:27:19
Speaker 3
I got you was like going, I can imagine, I can imagine you smooth talking your way out of things. Yeah. And imagine you going into a silver knife.
00:41:27:21 - 00:41:28:12
Speaker 2
No, I'm not.
00:41:28:12 - 00:41:58:07
Speaker 3
Into that. You're not into that? No. That's amazing. Wait, so. So. Yeah, it's just fascinating. Like, if you prisons. Ultimately, it's a great microscope to analyze humanity. Oh, and it's fascinating. It's like. And I think some of the stuff you're saying rid of like be uncompromising, you know, understand the lay of the land and and ultimately if you pull this into business, it's ultimately what company cultures are founders.
00:41:58:09 - 00:42:06:17
Speaker 3
We've got this innate desire to do these things. It's mad. What's so sorry? So this so this little puckish Italian geezer, right? He's given.
00:42:06:17 - 00:42:08:17
Speaker 2
He's not yielded. So every time. And of course, if.
00:42:08:17 - 00:42:08:23
Speaker 4
If.
00:42:09:04 - 00:42:14:10
Speaker 2
If the head guy finds someone that doesn't yield, of course he's going to really fuck with them, isn't he?
00:42:14:11 - 00:42:15:18
Speaker 3
So what did he do to him.
00:42:15:20 - 00:42:28:10
Speaker 2
Every day? Yeah. This guy would turn up beaten up face like come for breakfast like that. And I'm like, for fuck's who? You don't fucking tell me what to do.
00:42:28:12 - 00:42:32:16
Speaker 4
What the hell? Yeah, it's just.
00:42:32:18 - 00:42:33:11
Speaker 2
Little thing.
00:42:33:12 - 00:42:36:23
Speaker 4
I mean, he just. Yeah, it's like it's.
00:42:37:04 - 00:42:41:08
Speaker 3
Like, mate, there's there's uncompromising, but fuck me like. Yeah, yeah.
00:42:41:09 - 00:42:46:20
Speaker 2
So. But from me, they were amazingly good.
00:42:46:21 - 00:42:49:00
Speaker 3
So what sort of stuff were they asking you to do?
00:42:49:01 - 00:42:51:12
Speaker 2
Oh, nothing really, in the grand scheme of things.
00:42:51:12 - 00:42:54:04
Speaker 3
And then you just go around in the day with your gang, essentially.
00:42:54:05 - 00:43:26:12
Speaker 2
No, I was I wasn't part of it, really. But they do stick together, you know. Yeah. And, you know, I would always sit with them. You sit with them at mealtimes. And I got very friendly with the Italians, who are a subsection of the whites. Yeah. And they were really amazing to me. Amazing. You know, they took care of me and they helped me and they let me work out with them in the gym and great fun to be with.
00:43:26:18 - 00:43:33:22
Speaker 2
And yeah, that was they were really excellent. Excellent.
00:43:33:23 - 00:43:42:13
Speaker 3
Well, what are the lessons you took from them that you now in the outside world would think things useful?
00:43:42:15 - 00:43:59:15
Speaker 2
They're very loyal, are incredibly loyal to each other. What's amazing about them is that it seemed to me, and these are only my observations. But it seemed to me that there when we think about prison, we think of it as a terrible event, like unthinkable.
00:43:59:15 - 00:44:01:00
Speaker 3
As in Brits.
00:44:01:02 - 00:44:31:23
Speaker 2
Or any, any, any sort of anyone who lives a regular life. When they think about it, it's like a it's like a sort of part of the job. It's just it's sort of like like one of them would, would say, I say, how long are you in for? Ten years. And you know, he's 50. Odd. He'd say, yeah, I've been in four of my, of my 30 or 35 years of adult life.
00:44:31:23 - 00:44:41:15
Speaker 2
I've been in prison for 18 years. And I'm like, why? Why do you go out and do it again? He said, this is part of this is it.
00:44:41:16 - 00:44:43:06
Speaker 3
And then like in mafia gangs or something.
00:44:43:06 - 00:44:45:03
Speaker 2
Like that, I don't know what they do.
00:44:45:04 - 00:44:46:23
Speaker 3
Yeah, but they're accepting it's part of the.
00:44:46:23 - 00:44:54:18
Speaker 2
Job, part of their thing. And then when they're in their families who looked after and then they come out and it's like it's it's a it's like going on a tour of duty. I suppose if you're.
00:44:54:19 - 00:44:55:06
Speaker 4
In.
00:44:55:06 - 00:44:56:08
Speaker 2
The Army.
00:44:56:09 - 00:44:57:04
Speaker 5
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:44:57:04 - 00:44:57:10
Speaker 4
Yeah, yeah.
00:44:57:12 - 00:45:21:08
Speaker 2
Wayne, you come back, you go where you come back. Yeah. That. And so that was interesting to see. But they are very loyal and they're very, very happy people. And they were great to be around to be honest. They really helped, especially because that was mainly in my last stint in that last stint, which was a not a nice prison at all.
00:45:21:10 - 00:45:25:06
Speaker 3
Not a nice prison. Like, how was it? Really? Really. Yeah, yeah.
00:45:25:06 - 00:45:28:17
Speaker 2
And it was filthy. It was really badly maintained. It was a horrible prison.
00:45:28:17 - 00:45:29:14
Speaker 4
It was awful.
00:45:29:18 - 00:45:32:20
Speaker 3
So take me through the day. You wake up. What time?
00:45:32:22 - 00:45:34:00
Speaker 2
About 430.
00:45:34:01 - 00:45:34:19
Speaker 3
In the morning.
00:45:34:20 - 00:45:35:08
Speaker 4
Yeah.
00:45:35:09 - 00:45:36:23
Speaker 3
Why'd you wake up so early?
00:45:37:00 - 00:45:54:16
Speaker 2
Well, I used to, because I used to do some exercise. I got I got addicted to exercise, so I would do, like, I would get up and I'd do mobility stuff for half an hour. An hour. And then you go for breakfast and then around breakfast. It's about six.
00:45:54:20 - 00:45:55:07
Speaker 3
Really. Okay.
00:45:55:08 - 00:45:55:23
Speaker 4
Yeah.
00:45:56:03 - 00:46:11:23
Speaker 2
They don't want you in bed. They want you to have a maximum, maximum boredom, maximum frustration. They don't want you being in bed, so they want you out of bed. And you go and have your breath. I want to have breakfast. And then I go and do another work, a proper workout.
00:46:11:23 - 00:46:19:15
Speaker 3
So what sort of breakfast would they have?
00:46:19:17 - 00:46:22:19
Speaker 2
Nothing very good. Like gruel.
00:46:22:21 - 00:46:23:24
Speaker 4
Like porridge.
00:46:24:00 - 00:46:25:17
Speaker 3
Oh, fucking hell yeah.
00:46:25:20 - 00:46:37:08
Speaker 2
Some days you would get this sort of powdered eggs. But the food is not good in prisons, which, again, you'd expect, wouldn't you? You wouldn't expect you to have great food.
00:46:37:09 - 00:46:38:20
Speaker 4
Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:46:38:21 - 00:46:45:09
Speaker 2
I always laughed when people complained like the, the other prisoners. They're always I mean, you know, like humans love to complain.
00:46:45:10 - 00:46:45:18
Speaker 4
Yeah.
00:46:45:19 - 00:46:49:12
Speaker 2
They're like always complaining about something or other. And I'm always thinking.
00:46:49:14 - 00:46:50:09
Speaker 3
Mate, it's prison.
00:46:50:10 - 00:46:50:17
Speaker 2
We are.
00:46:50:17 - 00:46:52:16
Speaker 4
In prison.
00:46:52:18 - 00:46:54:23
Speaker 2
Designed to punish, you know.
00:46:55:00 - 00:47:01:00
Speaker 3
That's great. So yes, you have for breakfast. What sort of workout are you doing? Strength training. Running?
00:47:01:02 - 00:47:09:21
Speaker 2
I would do because I would work out in the morning and the evening. I still do now. I still go in the morning. In the evening I'm like, that's one of my good prison habits that I've kept.
00:47:09:22 - 00:47:10:10
Speaker 3
So what sort.
00:47:10:10 - 00:47:10:18
Speaker 4
Of stuff.
00:47:10:21 - 00:47:15:23
Speaker 2
You did in the morning? Resistance. Yeah. Or if they had weights, I would do weights.
00:47:16:04 - 00:47:16:13
Speaker 4
Yeah.
00:47:16:14 - 00:47:27:11
Speaker 2
And then in the evening I would do cardio. But then you so you do your exercise, then you get back to your, bunk for count. They're always counting you.
00:47:27:11 - 00:47:31:21
Speaker 3
And what time is this the bunk thing?
00:47:31:23 - 00:47:32:20
Speaker 4
Half ten.
00:47:32:21 - 00:47:33:11
Speaker 3
In the morning.
00:47:33:12 - 00:47:34:09
Speaker 4
Yeah, yeah.
00:47:34:11 - 00:47:36:05
Speaker 3
And count is when they make you.
00:47:36:06 - 00:47:51:17
Speaker 2
They count you. You have to stand by your bed and they count every. Everyone in the prison is counted about six times a day to prove, you know, to check that you haven't done a runner. And.
00:47:51:19 - 00:47:54:19
Speaker 2
And then you're hanging around. There's a lot of hanging around him.
00:47:55:00 - 00:47:56:12
Speaker 4
Yeah, a lot.
00:47:56:14 - 00:47:57:16
Speaker 2
Then you're hanging around.
00:47:57:16 - 00:47:59:22
Speaker 3
You must love. Cuz now you must be so adaptive.
00:47:59:22 - 00:48:00:07
Speaker 4
Cuz.
00:48:00:08 - 00:48:10:03
Speaker 2
You know, I've. There's two things that I know. Sort of the same thing that I'm a bit upset. I haven't learned patience. I'm still not patient.
00:48:10:04 - 00:48:10:10
Speaker 4
Yeah.
00:48:10:10 - 00:48:18:01
Speaker 2
Yeah, I'd be really. I am so impatient. And tolerance. I still have zero tolerance.
00:48:18:03 - 00:48:19:02
Speaker 4
Yeah yeah yeah yeah.
00:48:19:03 - 00:48:42:20
Speaker 2
You're right. You do. You learn that you like lines lining up for food, lining up for fucking everything. Yeah. And then. And then you go for lunch. And then I would go out in the afternoon. There's different it's different to when we had Covid because in Covid we were locked down. We didn't we weren't allowed out. So we were in their 24 over seven in the, in the.
00:48:42:20 - 00:48:45:04
Speaker 4
Cells.
00:48:45:06 - 00:48:54:10
Speaker 2
Unless you're having a shower. That was unbelievably difficult from a mental perspective because you literally.
00:48:54:12 - 00:48:55:14
Speaker 3
Like solitary confinement.
00:48:55:14 - 00:48:56:04
Speaker 4
Essentially basically.
00:48:56:05 - 00:49:07:17
Speaker 2
Solitary confinement. But but you're with the people that you're with. But but you're locked in. And that was for a long time. I mean, that was I think that was two years. How long did Covid go.
00:49:07:17 - 00:49:08:00
Speaker 4
On for?
00:49:08:01 - 00:49:10:06
Speaker 3
About two years. Yeah. So so.
00:49:10:08 - 00:49:11:23
Speaker 2
That's yeah. That was beastly.
00:49:11:24 - 00:49:13:16
Speaker 4
Yeah I bet.
00:49:13:18 - 00:49:16:23
Speaker 3
I want to get into all this mindset stuff that you've developed with mindful.
00:49:16:24 - 00:49:21:15
Speaker 2
Yeah. That's when I, I've already started working on it. But that really got me through.
00:49:21:21 - 00:49:22:06
Speaker 4
Yeah.
00:49:22:06 - 00:49:22:24
Speaker 2
At that time.
00:49:22:24 - 00:49:34:02
Speaker 3
So so so so yeah. So you have your lunch and then you basically go back to how many hours of the day. Are you in the, in the, in the bunk bed in the, in the cell versus out and load outside into like.
00:49:34:02 - 00:49:34:09
Speaker 4
The.
00:49:34:11 - 00:49:48:18
Speaker 2
Normal if there's no Covid. Yeah. It's pretty good to be fair. You're allowed out basically you're allowed to move every hour. There's ten minutes in every hour that you can move.
00:49:48:20 - 00:49:49:14
Speaker 3
Move as in like.
00:49:49:15 - 00:50:07:08
Speaker 2
Anywhere you can go outside or you can go and read something, or you can go wherever you want to go to the chapel, and then you're fixed for the rest of the hour, and then you can move again. Everyone moves at the same time, right?
00:50:07:08 - 00:50:09:01
Speaker 3
And you're going around with your gang at this point?
00:50:09:02 - 00:50:10:05
Speaker 2
No. Not necessarily.
00:50:10:06 - 00:50:10:11
Speaker 4
Yeah.
00:50:10:12 - 00:50:26:00
Speaker 2
You know, I mean, I sort of did my own thing. But, you know, they, they stick together. I mean, relationships form, don't they? In, in the gangs. But.
00:50:26:02 - 00:50:51:12
Speaker 2
But you say you can move every hour and sometimes you're stuck in the cell. Between sort of 11 and lunch and then four at four they count you and you're stuck until about six when you eat dinner, and then you're all called in about 7 or 8.
00:50:51:14 - 00:51:03:10
Speaker 2
So you can go out. It's quite you can go out quite a lot. And I but you do spend a lot of time on your bunk. It's incredibly unhealthy. Prison.
00:51:03:11 - 00:51:03:18
Speaker 4
Yeah, I.
00:51:03:18 - 00:51:16:06
Speaker 2
Bet unless you make the reason I did all the exercises. Because if I hadn't done it, I would. I would have come out, like, crippled. Because you're basically just lying. You don't get a pillow. They don't let you have a pillow.
00:51:16:08 - 00:51:16:23
Speaker 3
Fucking.
00:51:17:04 - 00:51:17:11
Speaker 4
Yeah.
00:51:17:12 - 00:51:19:08
Speaker 2
So you're sort of lying, like.
00:51:19:09 - 00:51:23:00
Speaker 4
Yeah. So uncomfortable. That's crazy.
00:51:23:02 - 00:51:27:15
Speaker 3
What would you ever get? Like, any, like, so with the £200 because you ever buy, like, a Kit Kat or like.
00:51:27:16 - 00:51:27:21
Speaker 4
Oh.
00:51:27:21 - 00:51:29:16
Speaker 2
Yeah, you can buy stuff in the commissary.
00:51:29:17 - 00:51:33:06
Speaker 3
What was the best thing you would buy that would, like, give you a give you a little smidge of happiness.
00:51:33:07 - 00:51:34:04
Speaker 4
Milky Way's.
00:51:34:05 - 00:51:34:22
Speaker 3
Oh, great.
00:51:34:23 - 00:51:35:11
Speaker 4
Yeah.
00:51:35:12 - 00:51:36:13
Speaker 3
The American chocolates.
00:51:36:13 - 00:51:37:24
Speaker 4
Fucking shit. Yeah. Awful.
00:51:38:00 - 00:51:39:01
Speaker 3
It's fucking awful.
00:51:39:02 - 00:51:39:18
Speaker 4
Yeah. It was.
00:51:39:19 - 00:51:43:13
Speaker 3
Like the Cadbury's Dairy Milk is just it's so, so sweet.
00:51:43:14 - 00:51:44:01
Speaker 2
Palm oil.
00:51:44:01 - 00:51:44:10
Speaker 4
In it.
00:51:44:11 - 00:51:44:16
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:51:44:17 - 00:51:45:20
Speaker 2
It's like.
00:51:45:22 - 00:51:46:14
Speaker 4
It's awful.
00:51:46:15 - 00:51:52:21
Speaker 2
I think Hershey's now they're not allowed to call it chocolate. It's called chocolate flavored candy.
00:51:52:23 - 00:51:58:03
Speaker 3
It's right. Yeah. That says a lot. Yeah. So what you'd go into little tuck shop. What else. What the shit could you.
00:51:58:03 - 00:51:58:14
Speaker 4
Buy once.
00:51:58:14 - 00:52:04:24
Speaker 2
A year, once a year, once a week you can go to commissary and you buy, you know, they have crisps and they have what you'd expect.
00:52:05:00 - 00:52:07:15
Speaker 4
Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.
00:52:07:17 - 00:52:12:11
Speaker 2
And you can stock up on that. And then you buy all your toiletries.
00:52:12:17 - 00:52:14:13
Speaker 4
Yeah.
00:52:14:15 - 00:52:18:24
Speaker 2
Yeah. That's not bad actually. I mean that's. That's a pretty good.
00:52:19:00 - 00:52:23:06
Speaker 4
Bit of, but.
00:52:23:08 - 00:52:24:10
Speaker 2
It's not healthy.
00:52:24:11 - 00:52:24:19
Speaker 4
Yeah.
00:52:24:19 - 00:52:33:03
Speaker 2
It's not a healthy environment. I mean I'm only I'm only saying that because, you know, some people just chomp just sit around all day, do nothing.
00:52:33:04 - 00:52:35:24
Speaker 3
What sort of stuff are you having for lunch and tea or dinner?
00:52:36:00 - 00:52:36:06
Speaker 4
Well.
00:52:36:06 - 00:53:02:13
Speaker 2
In in the private prisons, they basically feed you beans, rice and this inedible turkey, which we went on hunger strike twice in one of the prisons because one of the kitchen workers found the labeling for the turkey, and it said not for human consumption, basically like dog.
00:53:02:13 - 00:53:04:08
Speaker 4
Food, because if.
00:53:04:08 - 00:53:05:05
Speaker 2
It was stunk.
00:53:05:06 - 00:53:05:21
Speaker 4
It was.
00:53:05:23 - 00:53:07:21
Speaker 2
I didn't eat that. I spent nearly.
00:53:07:22 - 00:53:10:18
Speaker 3
How long were you on hunger strike? For hunger strike?
00:53:10:19 - 00:53:13:02
Speaker 2
A few days.
00:53:13:04 - 00:53:13:21
Speaker 3
And what did they do?
00:53:13:22 - 00:53:37:24
Speaker 2
They do react when you do that. Because they they the privates, the federal the federal prisons don't react. They don't care. But the privates care because they might lose their contracts if someone dies or. But I went nearly a year and a half. I couldn't eat that. I ate packets of fish and peanuts.
00:53:38:01 - 00:53:39:03
Speaker 3
Packets of fish.
00:53:39:04 - 00:53:40:08
Speaker 4
Yeah. It's in the.
00:53:40:10 - 00:53:40:20
Speaker 3
Packet.
00:53:40:20 - 00:53:41:05
Speaker 4
Of fish.
00:53:41:06 - 00:53:44:15
Speaker 2
Yeah. You can buy these packets of mackerel.
00:53:44:17 - 00:53:45:03
Speaker 4
Really?
00:53:45:05 - 00:53:47:01
Speaker 2
In the commissary.
00:53:47:03 - 00:53:50:02
Speaker 3
You must have been in good nick, then. We are in good nick now. You mean.
00:53:50:02 - 00:53:50:08
Speaker 4
Like.
00:53:50:09 - 00:53:51:11
Speaker 2
I lost a lot of weight?
00:53:51:12 - 00:53:51:20
Speaker 4
Yeah.
00:53:51:21 - 00:54:07:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, because I couldn't eat the food. So these. I was eating, like, 8 to 10 packets of fish a day. I was buying up the fish in the prison. And they use Mac. The Mac they call the max mackerels. They use them as currency.
00:54:07:09 - 00:54:08:22
Speaker 3
They use mackerel as currency.
00:54:09:00 - 00:54:14:05
Speaker 2
Of mackerel. Yeah. So if you have a haircut, you give them to Max. Really? Yeah.
00:54:14:07 - 00:54:17:21
Speaker 3
That's. Well, so what's the weirdest shit? You could sell Max for.
00:54:17:23 - 00:54:23:20
Speaker 2
Anything, really? Yeah. I mean, you can get anything in prison. You can get drugs. You can get you can get anything you want. Really? Yeah.
00:54:24:01 - 00:54:25:09
Speaker 3
So how do they get the drugs in.
00:54:25:10 - 00:54:27:05
Speaker 2
The guards? Bring it in.
00:54:27:07 - 00:54:28:01
Speaker 3
Really?
00:54:28:02 - 00:54:29:06
Speaker 2
Yeah. For sure.
00:54:29:09 - 00:54:30:09
Speaker 3
Oh. It's mad.
00:54:30:10 - 00:54:32:00
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, it's just totally corrupted.
00:54:32:01 - 00:54:37:18
Speaker 3
Is it? So what's some of the craziest shit you saw in there?
00:54:37:20 - 00:55:00:10
Speaker 2
Well, most of the. I tried to stay away from anything contentious because I. I just didn't want any trouble, and I didn't really get any trouble. I had a few run ins with people, but, you see, I mean, people are high all the time. Completely out of their mind. Coke or K2? Is it K2?
00:55:00:11 - 00:55:01:21
Speaker 3
Cat? Ketamine?
00:55:01:22 - 00:55:07:05
Speaker 2
No, no, no, they used to call it K2. I don't I'm not really up with the drug vernacular.
00:55:07:06 - 00:55:07:13
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:55:07:13 - 00:55:09:18
Speaker 2
Yeah, they was all sorts of stuff.
00:55:09:20 - 00:55:17:09
Speaker 3
I'm sure you'd fit in at Boomtown Festival. I didn't even know. It's full of, like, cranks, basically. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:55:17:11 - 00:55:22:19
Speaker 2
They're sort of totally out of it. They make alcohol in there.
00:55:22:21 - 00:55:25:02
Speaker 3
Make alcohol?
00:55:25:04 - 00:55:26:21
Speaker 3
How many people did you see get murdered?
00:55:26:24 - 00:55:29:20
Speaker 2
Oh, only that one guy was beaten.
00:55:29:24 - 00:55:33:09
Speaker 3
And what happened? Like, how does that change you as a person? Like, have you seen that?
00:55:33:10 - 00:55:42:02
Speaker 2
I don't know, I mean, I think I must have some sort of,
00:55:42:04 - 00:55:44:12
Speaker 2
Detachment. Is it detachment?
00:55:44:14 - 00:55:46:09
Speaker 3
Yeah. We don't.
00:55:46:09 - 00:55:48:10
Speaker 2
Disassociation or something.
00:55:48:12 - 00:55:51:17
Speaker 3
Would you become sort of sterilized? Sterile? Sterilized?
00:55:51:19 - 00:55:58:09
Speaker 2
Oh, it's like you weren't there. Yeah. There must be a there must be a, It must be a coping mechanism.
00:55:58:10 - 00:55:58:16
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:55:58:17 - 00:56:04:03
Speaker 2
But this person was.
00:56:04:05 - 00:56:15:23
Speaker 2
Was basically beaten up in front, in front of my bed by a guy with a lock in a sock, and.
00:56:16:00 - 00:56:30:18
Speaker 2
Amazing. Because this the guy who was beaten up was a massive guy. And the guy with the luck of the song was a little guy. But he was, it transpires, a secret for the Mexican drug cartels, which is a hitman.
00:56:30:19 - 00:56:33:13
Speaker 3
So he's Zakaria means.
00:56:33:14 - 00:56:34:02
Speaker 2
Yeah, he.
00:56:34:02 - 00:56:36:02
Speaker 3
Was seen. The film was a car. Yeah, yeah.
00:56:36:06 - 00:56:37:03
Speaker 2
Good film standing.
00:56:37:06 - 00:56:40:07
Speaker 3
Yeah, really good film. Yeah. Once he was just a fucking lunacy.
00:56:40:07 - 00:56:41:10
Speaker 2
Was a full on.
00:56:41:16 - 00:56:42:20
Speaker 3
Yeah. He's a small little fucker.
00:56:42:21 - 00:56:43:22
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:56:43:24 - 00:56:45:14
Speaker 3
Just battered him with a thing.
00:56:45:15 - 00:56:48:04
Speaker 2
Yeah, it was. And it was over a sexual dispute.
00:56:48:09 - 00:56:49:07
Speaker 3
What do you mean, a sexual?
00:56:49:09 - 00:56:51:17
Speaker 2
They were. They were like lovers or something.
00:56:51:19 - 00:56:54:12
Speaker 3
Are they allowed to bring their. They had to bring their wives in.
00:56:54:13 - 00:56:57:07
Speaker 2
No not in federal. In state. They are.
00:56:57:08 - 00:56:59:07
Speaker 3
So their wife's allowed to come in for.
00:56:59:08 - 00:57:06:21
Speaker 2
The state prison. Yeah. They have like conjugal visits, but it is pretty prevalent.
00:57:06:23 - 00:57:10:17
Speaker 3
And then. Do you think so these like, traditionally straight men.
00:57:10:19 - 00:57:12:20
Speaker 2
There's a lot of that. Yeah. Gay for the stay they call.
00:57:12:20 - 00:57:20:09
Speaker 3
It gave for the state. Yeah. That's so interesting. And then just because they just horny from motherfuckers and then they fall like so.
00:57:20:10 - 00:57:23:07
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, I never got the urge.
00:57:23:09 - 00:57:26:21
Speaker 3
Yeah. Just have a wine concern sort of thing.
00:57:26:23 - 00:57:27:19
Speaker 2
Well yeah.
00:57:27:20 - 00:57:28:00
Speaker 5
Yeah.
00:57:28:02 - 00:57:29:14
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, it's just mad.
00:57:29:15 - 00:57:34:20
Speaker 2
I, like you never got the urge to know. There's a lot of opportunity.
00:57:34:22 - 00:57:37:16
Speaker 3
Really? Yeah. And it just because. Didn't you go into the music not.
00:57:37:21 - 00:57:39:24
Speaker 2
Yeah I mean that's the boom boom boom.
00:57:40:00 - 00:57:41:07
Speaker 3
Boom boom room.
00:57:41:09 - 00:57:42:06
Speaker 6
That was good.
00:57:42:08 - 00:57:44:12
Speaker 3
You got a little bit lost because you got a piano behind you there.
00:57:44:13 - 00:57:46:11
Speaker 6
You know I do play the piano. Yeah, yeah.
00:57:46:12 - 00:57:47:05
Speaker 3
Tell that story.
00:57:47:05 - 00:57:48:06
Speaker 6
It's fucking. Well.
00:57:48:06 - 00:57:57:03
Speaker 2
That was just like heaven. I've been in this shithole for like, a week or so, and I'm wandering around. I find this little door and I walk in this. It's like fucking Paradise.
00:57:57:07 - 00:57:57:21
Speaker 6
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:57:57:22 - 00:58:02:22
Speaker 2
Drums, piano, guitars on the wall, you know? Soundproof.
00:58:02:23 - 00:58:03:21
Speaker 5
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:58:03:22 - 00:58:16:12
Speaker 2
And I sort of thought playing the piano a bit. Then I leave a go back to my cell. I say, well, why don't you tell me there's a fucking music room? They looked at me.
00:58:16:14 - 00:58:22:08
Speaker 2
Don't go in that room. It's the boom boom room. Really? Yeah. Basically where people go to shag.
00:58:22:10 - 00:58:25:01
Speaker 3
Well, and so they're just shagging all day. Basically these prisoners.
00:58:25:01 - 00:58:28:05
Speaker 2
I mean, I didn't see any of their otherwise. Of course I wouldn't have stayed. I'd have been out.
00:58:28:06 - 00:58:34:09
Speaker 3
No, no. But as in, like, as in jail, they're just what they shagging in the showers or they just. Where do they check?
00:58:34:11 - 00:58:36:23
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, the showers primarily.
00:58:37:00 - 00:58:42:13
Speaker 3
That's crazy. What's a gay for the state that's so interesting. Like.
00:58:42:15 - 00:58:45:11
Speaker 2
But when you think about it, there is some logic to it.
00:58:45:12 - 00:58:46:04
Speaker 3
What's the logic?
00:58:46:05 - 00:58:57:19
Speaker 2
Well, let's imagine you're in there for 20 years and you're a red blooded male. Yeah. And you, you know, you have urges. Yeah. I mean, I didn't get it at all.
00:58:57:21 - 00:59:00:11
Speaker 3
Is that cause you knew you were in there for maybe six years or.
00:59:00:12 - 00:59:01:15
Speaker 2
I don't know, really.
00:59:01:18 - 00:59:04:14
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense.
00:59:04:20 - 00:59:06:07
Speaker 2
Like, on the. I mean.
00:59:06:07 - 00:59:07:07
Speaker 3
It wasn't on the cards.
00:59:07:08 - 00:59:09:18
Speaker 2
Well, it was offered continually.
00:59:09:19 - 00:59:11:13
Speaker 3
Yeah. You're looking man, mate.
00:59:11:14 - 00:59:12:05
Speaker 6
Yeah.
00:59:12:07 - 00:59:13:18
Speaker 5
Yeah.
00:59:13:20 - 00:59:14:23
Speaker 6
Especially you're a.
00:59:14:23 - 00:59:22:16
Speaker 3
British gen. You're probably getting offered up. You're like the Hugh Grant of the prison if you. Grant was in a prison break.
00:59:22:17 - 00:59:23:21
Speaker 2
No, they call me James Bond.
00:59:23:22 - 00:59:24:13
Speaker 3
Oh, really?
00:59:24:15 - 00:59:25:23
Speaker 2
Yeah. Oh seven.
00:59:26:00 - 00:59:26:18
Speaker 3
Oh seven.
00:59:26:19 - 00:59:31:12
Speaker 2
He they call me James B James.
00:59:31:14 - 00:59:31:23
Speaker 5
Really?
00:59:31:23 - 00:59:33:07
Speaker 3
That's hilarious.
00:59:33:09 - 00:59:34:03
Speaker 2
Which I really like.
00:59:34:04 - 00:59:35:12
Speaker 3
And so.
00:59:35:14 - 00:59:37:08
Speaker 2
Man would not like to be called James Bond.
00:59:37:09 - 00:59:42:22
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. What would you. So would you just say I'm right? Thanks, mate. Yeah. And they'd leave you alone.
00:59:42:23 - 00:59:43:10
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. I didn't.
00:59:43:10 - 00:59:45:15
Speaker 3
Get so. So there's none of that like what you see in the films.
00:59:45:16 - 00:59:46:20
Speaker 2
No, no, that does happen.
00:59:46:21 - 00:59:48:23
Speaker 3
What we're like, where it's getting proper stuff.
00:59:48:23 - 00:59:50:16
Speaker 2
Yeah, but not certainly not for me.
00:59:50:17 - 00:59:58:16
Speaker 3
And how, but, like, how could, how did you back them away then. Like, as in, did you have because you're the negotiation negotiator in the group. Did you have status?
00:59:58:17 - 00:59:59:05
Speaker 2
No.
00:59:59:06 - 00:59:59:11
Speaker 3
But.
00:59:59:12 - 01:00:03:18
Speaker 2
No, but you're in a group. You wouldn't be messed with. Really? Yeah.
01:00:03:21 - 01:00:20:13
Speaker 3
Mad. Let's talk about, like, mindful and like, why not mine for like, the thing that you're now building mindful, which is people listening to this will love it. But like you've essentially you were in there, you went in with maybe a bit of ego hubris. I think we've all got that. I've got that. I think you have to get something going.
01:00:20:13 - 01:00:39:08
Speaker 3
You can't sit if everyone's actually. Yeah, if everyone's a fucking Buddhist. Right. Nothing would get built. Yeah. So that's why I'm a bit, you know, suspect about like, all this, like Namaste, bro. Like. Yeah. Well, if everyone sat around meditating, nothing gets built. Yeah. That's true. Like, so. So I think you need some of that, but obviously too much.
01:00:39:10 - 01:01:09:17
Speaker 3
So you've gone in and you've said quite a few times reading about this, it was brutal. It was a beast. But you're facing this motherfucking beast of a situation like I think let's start with what was in your mindset then at that period and then what were you read for 50 books like, we can maybe get into some of those books and then and then into mindful, which is like the, you know, the the system you're now building to help people be fucking resilient.
01:01:09:18 - 01:01:12:17
Speaker 3
Great. So yeah. Mindset first.
01:01:12:20 - 01:01:38:08
Speaker 2
Yeah. Well, I was I sort of suffered a full mental collapse within the first six weeks of being, being in prison. And that that was a consequence of the environment, of course, which is totally disorientating, being away from my family, which was really of all of the challenges that was the most brutal was separation of family. And I'm not.
01:01:38:12 - 01:01:39:11
Speaker 3
Five, five kids.
01:01:39:12 - 01:01:42:23
Speaker 2
Yeah. Five kids, five children. Yeah. And,
01:01:43:00 - 01:01:45:06
Speaker 3
Can you speak to them on the. Can you speak to your family on the phone?
01:01:45:07 - 01:01:52:23
Speaker 2
Yeah, you can speak to them on the phone. But of course, that in some ways that makes it worse in the early days because it really accentuates everything.
01:01:52:23 - 01:01:53:20
Speaker 3
And yes.
01:01:53:21 - 01:02:00:10
Speaker 2
You sort of you can't escape what you've done, you know. You know.
01:02:00:16 - 01:02:02:02
Speaker 3
Yeah, I can imagine it makes it way worse.
01:02:02:02 - 01:02:28:18
Speaker 2
So hard. But of course you also want it. So it's a really difficult, it's difficult. But the so your environment is very challenging. You're split up from your family and also you've lost so much. You know, in my case I'd had all the failure of the business, the failure which which you feel as a consequence of being arrested.
01:02:28:19 - 01:02:33:07
Speaker 2
I mean, that's like shockingly humiliating. Yeah.
01:02:33:08 - 01:02:35:05
Speaker 3
Yeah. You've lost all your status.
01:02:35:06 - 01:02:40:11
Speaker 2
Yeah. And money. And so you basically lost everything.
01:02:40:13 - 01:02:44:13
Speaker 3
Take me into the apex of the mental collapse.
01:02:44:15 - 01:02:48:18
Speaker 2
Well, you basically become completely hopeless.
01:02:48:20 - 01:02:49:19
Speaker 3
Depressed.
01:02:50:00 - 01:02:52:19
Speaker 2
Yeah.
01:02:52:21 - 01:03:00:09
Speaker 2
Yeah, I, I use the term hopeless because.
01:03:00:11 - 01:03:40:17
Speaker 2
Because a lack of hope really crushes the spirit. It crushes the human spirit. And I think that's what a lot of people experience outside of prison is a loss of hope. Because, you know, if you don't have any compelling or exciting view of your future, you lose hope and you become hopeless. And that feeling leads to, you know, suicidal thoughts and just a complete shutdown physically of your body.
01:03:40:18 - 01:04:12:10
Speaker 2
You know, your muscles ache, you, you feel you can't get up, you can't get out of bed, you got no no energy. And all of those things are totally alien to me. I mean, I'm a guy who works 20 hours a day. I'm incredibly positive and optimistic and always had a really, really clear vision of where I was going and what I was going to achieve and how I was going to do it.
01:04:12:10 - 01:04:36:14
Speaker 2
And of course, not everything went to plan, but just having that meant that I could get up at four in the morning and make calls all day and do meetings all day and go to bed at 11 at night or whatever, you know, whatever my schedule was, and fly around the world and keep doing it and be happy and deal with catastrophic business events and all that.
01:04:36:15 - 01:05:09:00
Speaker 2
All because I had this incredibly burning vision of my future, which stimulated me excitedly and all that was gone. And so I'm like, sort of like a sort of crumpled up mess, really. And and that's in the environment, in prison environment, that's catastrophic because you can't really have any weakness in prison and no one's interested in it. Quite right to they've got their own problems.
01:05:09:02 - 01:05:15:06
Speaker 2
And so that was sort of within the first six weeks and I.
01:05:15:08 - 01:05:18:14
Speaker 3
And how long did that period last for?
01:05:18:16 - 01:05:26:17
Speaker 2
Well, it was at the 6 to 8 week point that I decided that I've got to get my shit together. Otherwise this is.
01:05:26:19 - 01:05:30:15
Speaker 3
How long did the collapse period last like that? Hopeless.
01:05:30:16 - 01:05:33:18
Speaker 2
Oh, probably a few weeks.
01:05:33:22 - 01:05:37:20
Speaker 3
Yeah. And what's the thoughts as soon as you wake up, since your eyes open?
01:05:38:00 - 01:05:41:03
Speaker 2
Oh, you. Just doom your doom looping.
01:05:41:04 - 01:05:41:22
Speaker 3
Doom looping?
01:05:41:23 - 01:05:53:04
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, catastrophic, everything's catastrophic. You don't want to get out of bed. Don't eat anything.
01:05:53:06 - 01:05:57:02
Speaker 2
You'd rather be dead. Yeah, it's not good.
01:05:57:03 - 01:05:59:15
Speaker 3
Sounds fun. Really bad. That sounds.
01:05:59:17 - 01:06:18:05
Speaker 2
Really bad. Yeah. And. And I'm afraid to say that's not exclusive to prison. I mean, lots of people suffer from them, and it's a horrible. It's a very difficult loop to get out of because you're.
01:06:18:07 - 01:06:25:09
Speaker 2
I don't know what it is about the mind, but the mind loves to beat itself up. It loves.
01:06:25:11 - 01:06:37:12
Speaker 3
I'm that biggest customer. Yeah. Honestly, I'm I've got better at it, but, like, just randomly, it's like mendacious critic. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And it's just. Yeah.
01:06:37:13 - 01:06:44:07
Speaker 2
If you start it rolling, it just it can't stop. And it becomes more and more.
01:06:44:09 - 01:06:57:12
Speaker 3
If someone's going through that. Now, whether it's catastrophe in business or life. What are some of the lessons you learned from prison reading books to like, stop that doom loop and begin to turn hopelessness, to hope, fullness.
01:06:57:14 - 01:07:17:18
Speaker 2
It's all about the questions you ask yourself when you're in that state. Because if you if you're your brain basically responds to questions. And so if you ask yourself the right questions, you can snap yourself out of out of it. And I but I don't want to minimize any of this. And I also want to say I'm not an expert.
01:07:17:19 - 01:07:19:20
Speaker 2
I only know.
01:07:19:21 - 01:07:20:22
Speaker 3
For your experience.
01:07:20:22 - 01:07:21:13
Speaker 2
From me. Yeah.
01:07:21:17 - 01:07:24:24
Speaker 3
So what what questions are good to ask?
01:07:25:00 - 01:07:47:14
Speaker 2
The one I always ask and I do it now it's which is brilliant is what do I control in this situation. What do I have control of? And that simple question, if you're if you answer it honestly will help you.
01:07:47:16 - 01:08:09:23
Speaker 2
Stop the process. That's what. Yeah, yeah. Because most of what you worry about and the reason you worry about it is stuff you don't control. So you're worrying about outcomes that you have no control over. That's what creates anxiety. That's what we create worry and.
01:08:09:24 - 01:08:42:16
Speaker 2
And and so that question is powerful because it it regardless of the situation you're in. Or let me put it another way, the situation you are in will dictate the answer. Because, for instance, I'm in prison, I have very little control over anything. I mean, literally, I have no control over anything. And so if I answer that question honestly and I learn the next thing, which I'll tell you, then I can get myself out of that loop.
01:08:42:18 - 01:08:45:08
Speaker 2
So the first thing is to ask the right question.
01:08:45:09 - 01:09:05:11
Speaker 3
Yeah. So so so what's in your control? What are the questions are good. I've got like I generally believe this is true of business. I say this a lot on the podcast. The smart answer hides in the dumb question. Yeah. And this is for life and for business, but for business. And Borys Sutherland's got the thing goes, which I love, which is in school.
01:09:05:11 - 01:09:28:06
Speaker 3
You can't rewrite the question, but in business you can. And I really like that because it means, you know, like one of the questions I always ask myself in business because I overcomplicate things a lot, is I go, what would this look like? And I write on a piece of paper if it were easy. Yeah. And suddenly it means all the bullshit waffle that like the stuff that doesn't actually move the needle kind of just dissipates and you see really clear.
01:09:28:06 - 01:09:41:09
Speaker 3
So I love questions. The reason I got a podcast right there like very good. And so I was like, you know, if you had a the 8020 rule, like if you had a the principle. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like what 20.
01:09:41:11 - 01:09:42:13
Speaker 2
Remarkable. It's true.
01:09:42:13 - 01:09:59:11
Speaker 3
That's true of everything. Yeah. What 20% of my time drives 80% of the value. Yeah I know it's this the other day, like I've got loads of clothes. I was like, where like fucking these four shirts. I didn't actually have them. That's a normal t shirt. But like, I was like, I need to get rid of all this 80% of this gump.
01:09:59:12 - 01:10:11:22
Speaker 3
Yeah, but like, it's true of everything happiness. 20% of your mates will drive 80% happiness. So. Yeah. So, so so that's the business. But then in. So if you're trying to get out your nuts all over the shop so you can say what's in your control, what other.
01:10:11:24 - 01:10:44:09
Speaker 2
What's in my control. What action can I take now. What can I do about it now? Those are the two most important questions. And if you answer them honestly, it'll interrupt the pattern in your head. The the real challenge, which mustn't be underestimated, is that even if you know that you don't control it, you've then got to develop the ability to let it go.
01:10:44:11 - 01:10:45:21
Speaker 2
That is bloody difficult.
01:10:45:22 - 01:10:46:20
Speaker 3
How do you do that?
01:10:46:21 - 01:10:52:13
Speaker 2
Just practice and and you have to develop a faith in the outcome.
01:10:52:15 - 01:11:08:23
Speaker 3
So like so let me so like you know so for example I asked this selfishly. Sometimes I myself at this business is going to go to shit. But I actually have that a lot in my head. Like I think something's going to go wrong. We're going to lose a big sponsor, we're not going to land a big sponsor.
01:11:09:00 - 01:11:31:15
Speaker 3
And like, it's kind of exhilarating, but it's kind of like I'm operating from a place of I'm shitting myself versus a place of like, maybe, maybe I'm at the minute having I always have like maybe the last 6 or 7 months, like existential fear that something's going to go wrong, like in the business, like catastrophizing a lot. My mum has a lot of anxiety.
01:11:31:16 - 01:11:52:12
Speaker 3
So does my brother. Like, I think even sort of inherited that. Yeah. Like in our system. Like my brother almost drowned when we were younger. And like I remember that vividly as like just panic. I've just seen panic a lot in my life. Yeah. And so like and so I'll overthink stuff. I'll just think something's going to go wrong and it's like, how can I, like, get out?
01:11:52:13 - 01:12:00:01
Speaker 3
And I like in some that way I kind of like it because it's a great force. But I don't know if it's the best place to operate from. Do you know what I mean?
01:12:00:03 - 01:12:45:16
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, it's not it's not unusual to feel when you're, when you're building a company. But I mean, that's if you have recurring if you have recurring things which cause you anxiety, then you have to deal with it. It's a similar you deal with it in a similar way, but you've got to get ahead of it. So well, you've got to you've got to work out what it is that's causing you that, because it's just basically internal messages that you're telling yourself, and then you've got to reframe whatever it is that you're catastrophizing, fighting about and you've got to develop, certainty in an uncertain situation.
01:12:45:18 - 01:12:50:01
Speaker 2
So if you're.
01:12:50:03 - 01:13:07:21
Speaker 2
If I use myself as an example, my current situation is not is amazing. But it's not as it was before I went to prison. You know, I was in a pretty good spot, not not just before I went to, but.
01:13:07:23 - 01:13:13:04
Speaker 3
When you have an in and out burger. Things were going that last milkshake.
01:13:13:06 - 01:13:39:09
Speaker 2
Things were good, you know, and I and now it's not as you know life's if you look at on paper at my situation it's quite uncertain, you know, because I'm starting again. I'm really starting from scratch and I'm 50. What am I now, 57 or something? So. And I've got five children, I've got a wife. And it's complex because they're in America and I'm here.
01:13:39:09 - 01:13:41:17
Speaker 2
And so there's a lot of uncertainty in my.
01:13:41:18 - 01:13:43:02
Speaker 3
How come? They're not over here.
01:13:43:05 - 01:13:46:24
Speaker 2
Well, because they have a life and they come over. They've been over.
01:13:47:00 - 01:13:47:13
Speaker 3
Yeah.
01:13:47:14 - 01:13:49:12
Speaker 2
But they.
01:13:49:14 - 01:13:52:17
Speaker 3
And you're not allowed in America. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
01:13:52:18 - 01:13:56:06
Speaker 2
But,
01:13:56:08 - 01:14:15:18
Speaker 2
The reason I mention it is because there's a lot of uncertainty in my life. And if I allow that to if I allowed myself to feel uncertain, then I would have a lot of anxiety and, you know, and quite justifiably so, I do a lot of work to create certainty around the future.
01:14:15:19 - 01:14:16:22
Speaker 3
So what is that?
01:14:16:23 - 01:14:37:01
Speaker 2
Just my confidence that firstly that I can deal with anything. I have absolute confidence that whatever you throw at me, I can handle it. And that's based on my life experience to date and also training of my mind to, to to develop that confidence.
01:14:37:02 - 01:14:54:18
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah. That's that's how do you train say someone's feeling. Say like me like it's I'm sort of certain that where this podcast is going I'm very confident in that vision. But but day to day it's quite uncertain. It's like it is as people say, it's a roller coaster, having your own business life, sort of, you know, Ronan Keating, whatever.
01:14:54:23 - 01:15:04:23
Speaker 3
Life's roller coaster. Yeah. Like, how can you train your mind to develop certainty in uncertain like is it journaling? Is it.
01:15:05:00 - 01:15:10:04
Speaker 2
Well, it's a whole range of mental exercises. Yeah. That's part of what this mindfuck program is.
01:15:10:05 - 01:15:10:23
Speaker 3
Yeah. Talk me through them.
01:15:10:24 - 01:15:17:02
Speaker 2
Yeah. Okay. So if I tell you what what we do with mind thought we're basically.
01:15:17:04 - 01:15:38:16
Speaker 2
We basically start off by helping people develop a compelling future for themselves. Now you've got that. You've already done that because you've defined the fact that you want you've got this business that you want to run, you want to build. You know what it looks like. It excites you. You might not have done the same for your relationships.
01:15:38:19 - 01:15:39:05
Speaker 2
And.
01:15:39:06 - 01:15:50:14
Speaker 3
Well, that's something one of my greatest fears, and it is kind of hyper irrational, is that I'm going to, like, not have a family. That's something that's something that really scares me because a lot of my mates are now getting married and having kids.
01:15:50:17 - 01:15:54:17
Speaker 3
part of me, like it's a lot of the limiting beliefs, like doubts that like, I won't achieve that.
01:15:54:17 - 01:15:54:24
Speaker 3
And I
01:15:54:24 - 01:15:57:16
Speaker 3
But that's sort of the narrative in my head, kind of express.
01:15:57:18 - 01:15:58:05
Speaker 2
Change that.
01:15:58:06 - 01:15:59:17
Speaker 3
Yeah. So come on, bro.
01:15:59:20 - 01:16:02:11
Speaker 5
Help me out, boy.
01:16:02:13 - 01:16:37:21
Speaker 2
Yeah. So you start off with compelling future and that that basically looks at all the pillars of life and says, you know, if I have a blank sheet of paper, what what would that look like? What would it look like from a work perspective, a financial perspective, possessions, hobbies, family, relationships, home. And you let your mind go. You really sort of immerse yourself in the exercise and enjoy it, and you build out this exciting, compelling future.
01:16:37:22 - 01:17:03:03
Speaker 2
And the reason that you do it is to provide yourself with context. You're all of your activity needs context for you to be able to do it well, to do it, to be motivated to do it, and to be able to get through the bits of which there are many. And and so that's the starting point. So you build this community from that.
01:17:03:05 - 01:17:05:02
Speaker 3
You get on a piece of paper or. Yeah, yeah.
01:17:05:03 - 01:17:06:01
Speaker 2
Yeah, you do on a piece of.
01:17:06:01 - 01:17:15:03
Speaker 3
Paper and what sort of questions? You know, questions are better than statements like what sort of questions are you saying. Like where do you want to live? How much money do you want to make?
01:17:15:04 - 01:17:31:05
Speaker 2
How do I want do I want to be married or not? Do I want children or not? Where do I want you know, what country do want to live in? What do I want my life to be? Do I want to work a specific time? Do I want a sort of fully blended life where I work all the time and I play all the time?
01:17:31:06 - 01:17:32:12
Speaker 2
You know.
01:17:32:14 - 01:17:33:23
Speaker 3
That's my ticket. Yeah, yeah.
01:17:33:24 - 01:17:34:13
Speaker 2
Blended.
01:17:34:14 - 01:17:35:08
Speaker 3
Yeah. Blended.
01:17:35:09 - 01:17:36:11
Speaker 2
I'm a fan of the blended.
01:17:36:11 - 01:17:53:23
Speaker 3
I love blended. Blended is good. Yeah because I think you can like so we're going to Ibiza. Like it's pretty mad where this thing's going because like there's this DJ I've been like I like going to my be. So I love partying. And there's this DJ called Nick Frenchie. He's like he's like best mates of Carl Cox.
01:17:53:24 - 01:18:12:00
Speaker 3
Like he's a big fucking DJ. I've seen him play at festivals a lot. It's like if I'm on a run, I need to like really crank it up. I put his tunes on. Nice. Anyway, this is mad. So he's now launched this amazing brand called Sober Circus and, kind of like a, like Jamie's stuff. Like a CPG.
01:18:12:02 - 01:18:29:21
Speaker 3
Like a consumer brand, right? Yeah. But we've got this podcast with all these perfect people on for like, you know, we've had the. Yeah, that's kind of where we started obviously now moving around slightly. But you know, he I got a call in a week was like I'm on the fucking blower to Nick French. That's what I've watched loads of times.
01:18:30:02 - 01:18:52:12
Speaker 3
Then he's like come to my before we can call him my villa and his pads. Ridiculous. And and then obviously like he basically I don't need to worry about guest lists ever again. Like, yeah, I've just landed like, that stuff is so sick. Like and like those I love, I love the like the serendipity that comes out of manifestation, stuff like this conversation.
01:18:52:13 - 01:18:59:05
Speaker 3
Like it's mad how this if you told me like a year or two years ago, I'd be having a conversation with you. And this is just wildly.
01:18:59:07 - 01:19:00:23
Speaker 2
I mean, I was in prison. Yeah.
01:19:01:00 - 01:19:01:21
Speaker 5
Yeah, yeah.
01:19:01:22 - 01:19:02:21
Speaker 3
You eating mackerel?
01:19:02:22 - 01:19:04:21
Speaker 2
I was writing my compelling future.
01:19:04:22 - 01:19:10:09
Speaker 3
Yes. So? So writing compelling future. Yeah. And with this. Right. So what I find interesting.
01:19:10:11 - 01:19:11:17
Speaker 2
About the questions I must remember.
01:19:11:18 - 01:19:22:07
Speaker 3
No, no, no, this is just a chat. So it's really interesting. So some people, a lot of the Americans like do you know the American sales guy Grant Cardone.
01:19:22:08 - 01:19:23:09
Speaker 2
No.
01:19:23:11 - 01:19:38:02
Speaker 3
He's he's he's funny. Right. So he's he's a bit like he's a bit like a modern day Zig Ziglar. Right? Yeah. But so I was listening to a lot of his sales books when I was selling peanut butter, and it was a bit like I saw peanut walking around London sending me back. But he's so American. He goes, he goes, guys.
01:19:38:04 - 01:19:47:03
Speaker 3
He goes, guys, I just wanted you to start your day with one fucking question, and you want one of you to write it on a piece of paper. And he goes, who's got my fucking money?
01:19:47:04 - 01:19:47:22
Speaker 5
Right?
01:19:47:23 - 01:20:03:13
Speaker 3
And so I was going to all these little itty diddy like, you know, boujee, you know, boogie, like fruit and vegetables in barns or like Wimbledon Village. And I was walking in with woman, I've got this Texan guy going who's got my fucking money.
01:20:03:18 - 01:20:04:04
Speaker 5
And I.
01:20:04:04 - 01:20:14:16
Speaker 3
Was like, you need to buy this peanut butter. But, so yeah, like ADHD is going overdrive now, but the, Yeah. So so you write down some questions.
01:20:14:20 - 01:20:20:21
Speaker 2
No. You basically look you basically ask yourself what what does my ideal life look like? Yeah. And the reason you.
01:20:20:21 - 01:20:28:04
Speaker 3
Do it. Oh sorry sorry, sorry I was going to say. Yeah. So some so that Grant Cardone guy says like his whole thing is ten. So ten extra ambition.
01:20:28:05 - 01:20:29:19
Speaker 2
Yeah. Oh, I have heard that.
01:20:29:20 - 01:20:50:16
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah. Ten x. Like everything's fucking ten x. Yeah. Ten x the fuck out of it. Yeah. Anyway, so there's that. And then the guy I interviewed last week, which was really interesting and he's got a gorgeous sandwich shop up in, Crouch End, very happy guy. And he goes and he goes. His whole thing is setting actually achievable goals.
01:20:50:17 - 01:21:08:04
Speaker 3
So like and you know, he has a sandwich shop. He's very happy. He's got kids. He has a couple of pubs in Somerset and he goes, I think he's the reason people are so unhappy is we have goals up here that are impossible to achieve when they're doing your exercise. Are you? Is it the ten or is it like where do you sit on that spectrum?
01:21:08:10 - 01:21:32:22
Speaker 2
Well there's different layers to the exercise right. So I'll answer your question in a minute. Yeah. But the the compelling future is very much about visioning your best scenario. It's something that excites you. So if you're and bear in mind it'll change across your life because your circumstances change and your needs change. But let's say your current.
01:21:32:24 - 01:21:43:23
Speaker 2
In your current thinking. You would like that. DJ's house in Ibiza. Yes, if that was one. If that's if that really, really got you fucking excited when you which it does because I can.
01:21:43:23 - 01:21:44:22
Speaker 5
Say yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:21:44:23 - 01:21:48:23
Speaker 2
Then that would be under your home. You'd have that in.
01:21:49:00 - 01:21:50:00
Speaker 3
On it pad.
01:21:50:01 - 01:21:51:10
Speaker 5
Yeah.
01:21:51:12 - 01:22:11:00
Speaker 2
So that it is an aspirational when you're building your compelling future. It's aspirational. Yeah. You might never get there. Doesn't matter. Yeah. It's aspirational. It's very long term. Yeah. It's something that you think why am I fucking doing this. Oh this is yes and yes. It can relate to anything. Can relate to your health, your fitness, your home, your money.
01:22:11:02 - 01:22:28:07
Speaker 2
But it's got to excite you. And it can't be anyone else's version. It has to be yours. It can't be because your mum wants you to be a lawyer or it has to be you. Yes, it can't be because your wife wants something. It has to. Or your husband. It has to be you. And you have to be true to yourself.
01:22:28:08 - 01:22:53:07
Speaker 2
That's that's the thing. It's your Northstar. Basically, once you've done that, you can start to do the other bits, and those are to come up with your purpose in life, which is a direct reflection of your vision. You can then start to see what your purpose in life is. And your purpose is fundamental, because that tells you why you're here.
01:22:53:13 - 01:23:06:07
Speaker 2
It gives you your reason for being. And I'm not saying that your purpose needs to say you're going to be Mother Theresa and, you know, work with the poor and make, you know, make their lives good. It might be your purpose, might be to.
01:23:06:12 - 01:23:07:06
Speaker 3
Have a sandwich shop.
01:23:07:07 - 01:23:30:07
Speaker 2
Yeah. Or it doesn't matter what it is, but you need a purpose in life. And and so you can get that once you've got this compelling future, you can start to get to the purpose. Then you can build out your obsessions. And I love the word obsession because only truly amazing things happen if you're obsessed about it. And people, they think it's too strong a word.
01:23:30:09 - 01:23:41:23
Speaker 2
It's an unhealthy word. I love. It because if you want to be a great father, you've got to be obsessed with it. If you want to be a great businessman, you've got to be obsessed with it. And so.
01:23:41:24 - 01:24:00:16
Speaker 3
There's there's this guy who I drink with in in the local pub I go to, and we he's an Irish guy. He's a great storyteller. He works for Goldman Sachs and he's his name's actually he's like half he's a bit Egyptians and his name's is. But he's got his Irish accents. Like, I can't really fucking do it. Like.
01:24:00:18 - 01:24:00:23
Speaker 5
Yeah.
01:24:00:23 - 01:24:15:08
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, I'll need to practice it. But. And then so then. So I was having lunch with him and he was saying that his whole thing, he was like in life he goes intensity. Yeah. You need to be intense. And he goes people especially in the UK, like intense people are like, oh, he's quite intense or she's quite intense.
01:24:15:10 - 01:24:22:02
Speaker 3
But I think and he was basically saying to me like, you need intensity and obsession. And you know, he.
01:24:22:03 - 01:24:22:14
Speaker 5
He.
01:24:22:20 - 01:24:27:24
Speaker 3
He basically does quite a bit of running and he goes once late for work and.
01:24:28:00 - 01:24:29:04
Speaker 5
He goes.
01:24:29:06 - 01:24:49:07
Speaker 3
And his boss goes, where are you? Then he shows me his phone. He'd run it at three, three in the morning. He'd run a half marathon, a marathon around Richmond particles. That's the reason I'm lazy. Like like that? Yeah. He's a he's a proper intense motherfucker, but like. But he has that obsession and that like. And I think, I think British society is like, don't be too obsessed.
01:24:49:08 - 01:24:52:05
Speaker 3
Don't be. You know. And I think you're right. Really.
01:24:52:09 - 01:25:11:16
Speaker 2
The problem is they when you say it, people automatically think, oh, you've got to be obsessed with work. I'm not saying that whatever it is you're trying to get to, whatever it is, your future, the thing that excites you, you have to develop an obsession around it. And I think it's good to have five. That's just.
01:25:11:21 - 01:25:13:06
Speaker 5
What are yours?
01:25:13:08 - 01:25:25:13
Speaker 2
Mine are be an amazing father, an amazing husband. Help people with their mental development, help businesses transform their performance and make loads of money. Those are my.
01:25:25:14 - 01:25:27:13
Speaker 3
Make loads of money. Lovely.
01:25:27:14 - 01:25:28:17
Speaker 2
I'm obsessed with those five.
01:25:28:19 - 01:25:29:05
Speaker 5
Yeah.
01:25:29:07 - 01:25:35:24
Speaker 2
And that's that correlates directly with my purpose in life, which correlates directly with the future. That excites me.
01:25:36:00 - 01:25:38:04
Speaker 3
So what's the future you've written down now?
01:25:38:06 - 01:26:11:22
Speaker 2
It's all all revolves around those five things, you know, and I. And that really excites me. You know, I can see in every area I really can get excited about it. So I've got clarity is is what that gives you for my actions. And, and I can also make really good decisions on prioritizing my time around those obsessions, which is also another real challenge in life because we have so many distractions.
01:26:11:22 - 01:26:43:03
Speaker 2
So once you've got your your compelling future vision, you can come up with your purpose, your obsessions, and then you can get into the really hairy world of values and beliefs. This is the most important thing to the way that you feel, and the way that you manage yourself in given situations, and the way that you think. All of that is driven by your values and beliefs.
01:26:43:07 - 01:26:45:21
Speaker 3
Wise values, beliefs. So hairy then.
01:26:46:00 - 01:27:05:02
Speaker 2
Because you have to sort of confront your mind in order to identify what they are today, and you have to work out what they need to be in order to be this, to achieve this vision that you've created. And it's quite an uncomfortable process.
01:27:05:03 - 01:27:10:13
Speaker 3
What was the hardest things you had to confront. When in prison?
01:27:10:15 - 01:27:18:20
Speaker 2
I went through the process I developed and you talked about limiting beliefs. I had developed the most awful beliefs about myself.
01:27:18:21 - 01:27:19:12
Speaker 3
Which were.
01:27:19:13 - 01:27:38:02
Speaker 2
You know, about myself as a father and a husband and a son, as a businessman, as a human being. You know, I felt that I was scum, you know, because I'd, I'd let people down and and in the trial, they, they really vilify you. So you, you come away believing that you are a terrible person.
01:27:38:08 - 01:27:39:20
Speaker 5
Yeah. So.
01:27:39:22 - 01:27:41:03
Speaker 2
So I developed all.
01:27:41:03 - 01:27:42:05
Speaker 5
These.
01:27:42:07 - 01:28:13:20
Speaker 2
Beliefs about myself which which categorically would prevent me from moving towards my future, my compelling future. And also they they served no purpose. A negative belief serves no purpose. And so I had to work out what which is part of what we do with mine for is what should my values and beliefs be to support this future that I want to get to and to support my purpose and my obsessions?
01:28:13:22 - 01:28:22:23
Speaker 2
And once you've defined that, you've obviously got to change your belief. And that takes some work, which comes later.
01:28:22:23 - 01:28:25:20
Speaker 3
But how did you change your beliefs in prison?
01:28:25:21 - 01:28:31:16
Speaker 2
Well, I'll talk I can talk about that in a minute about how you sort of execute. But the first in I'm just going through the mind.
01:28:31:18 - 01:28:31:24
Speaker 5
Yeah, yeah.
01:28:31:24 - 01:28:45:11
Speaker 3
Yeah, but this was all built out of you. You had this mental collapse, as you said. You read 450 books. Yeah, I love books. We'll talk about that. But then and you bought this own sort of program that. You for yourself, which you know. Yeah. Okay. So so.
01:28:45:12 - 01:29:03:06
Speaker 2
So so I had this wonderful luxury of time. So I had lots of trial and error because there's a lot of stuff out there. And nothing that I've got in mind for is new. Nothing. It's just a pulling together of the stuff that really worked for me. I've kept it as simple as possible so that it's not to own.
01:29:03:07 - 01:29:05:20
Speaker 3
Super simple. Yeah. And so yeah. So values and beliefs.
01:29:05:21 - 01:29:27:19
Speaker 2
Yeah. So you get your values and beliefs once you've done that. That's sort of the first bit nailed. So you've got your compelling future. You've got your purpose, your obsessions, your values and beliefs. Then you set to work on your plan. And the plan basically says, okay, this is where I'm going. This is my vision of the future.
01:29:27:21 - 01:29:45:22
Speaker 2
This is where I am. So I need to take stock of my current situation. And my current situation is things that I love doing. So obviously you're going to do more of them. Things that I hate doing or I hate, you're going to get rid of them. And then the hardest one, which is things that you hate, but you need to learn to love.
01:29:45:22 - 01:29:49:24
Speaker 3
When we had our coffee, that bit really was like.
01:29:50:01 - 01:29:50:17
Speaker 2
Yeah.
01:29:50:18 - 01:29:53:13
Speaker 3
So interesting that last one pull on that thread a bit more.
01:29:53:14 - 01:30:13:22
Speaker 2
Yeah. So in my example is an easy one, which is that I, I had this wonderful vision for myself which encompassed being an amazing father, husband, you know, all the stuff I've talked about and, and I say, great, I know where I want to be. And then I say, where am I? Fuck me. I'm in prison.
01:30:13:24 - 01:30:16:14
Speaker 3
I eat in mackerel. Yeah, I mean.
01:30:16:16 - 01:30:18:10
Speaker 2
I can't do what can I do?
01:30:18:12 - 01:30:19:08
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:30:19:12 - 01:30:20:24
Speaker 2
Even make a sort of phone call.
01:30:21:01 - 01:30:21:21
Speaker 3
You make a sandwich?
01:30:21:21 - 01:30:47:01
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, if they catch me trying to do any business, I get an extra for a hundred years. So, so that would that would classify as something that I. That I hate that I've got to learn to love. So what I could then do is start working out in the context of my vision. What what could I do in prison which would move me towards it?
01:30:47:01 - 01:31:00:07
Speaker 2
And that was stuff like reading. That was stuff like exercise, writing to my children once or twice a week, calling them as much as I could within the limitations that they put on you.
01:31:00:09 - 01:31:03:10
Speaker 3
And is this written down on like a, like you have this written down.
01:31:03:11 - 01:31:04:14
Speaker 2
Yeah. I've got yeah. Written down.
01:31:04:14 - 01:31:09:06
Speaker 3
I've got and you have it on a board. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. I'm just trying to think of someone trying to action this.
01:31:09:06 - 01:31:39:19
Speaker 2
Oh, you can do it however you like. Yeah. People are different. I like writing. Yeah. But. Yeah. So, so then I. So you basically you come up with your plan and the plan is, is, is structured around having your priorities, which come from your obsessions, your mission, which is basically in the context of this really long term thing, what you what you focused on now, what is the mission at hand?
01:31:39:21 - 01:31:53:01
Speaker 2
So your mission at hand is to build this podcast, your long term vision. I'm talking business. Your long term vision might be to have a multimedia broadcasting empire, which spans the world and makes a trillion there.
01:31:53:03 - 01:31:58:11
Speaker 3
And I dressed as fucking. What's the guy out of Scarface?
01:31:58:13 - 01:31:59:02
Speaker 2
Tony Montana?
01:31:59:07 - 01:32:03:15
Speaker 3
Yeah, sorry, the guy has to go face. I remember that one. Yeah.
01:32:03:16 - 01:32:06:14
Speaker 2
I thought you meant Hugh Hefner.
01:32:06:16 - 01:32:08:20
Speaker 3
Yeah. No, that would be pretty sick, to be fair.
01:32:08:21 - 01:32:36:02
Speaker 2
So. So this brings it back a bit. A bit more sort of focused. Once you've got your mission, you can come up with your objectives, which are even more focused. And then you're I'm answering your question about having realistic goals. And then you come to your goals. And your goals are should be as your that chat said, very realistic, very measurable and time driven.
01:32:36:02 - 01:32:55:02
Speaker 2
So you've got you've got they've got to be in a reasonable amount of time. You've got to be. Yes. And then the last piece of the planned puzzle is tasks. So under the goals you work out your tasks. And what you end up with is a pyramid of.
01:32:55:04 - 01:33:25:00
Speaker 2
Stuff at the top. It's pretty high level. That's your vision. And as you go down, it gets more and more detailed until you get to your tasks. The important thing is it's all linked. It all has a context. So when I'm getting up at 430 and I'm doing mobility exercise in the prison and I really can't be asked, I can think, okay, I've got to do that because I want to be able to run around with my kids when I get out of prison in six years time.
01:33:25:06 - 01:33:25:18
Speaker 3
Yeah.
01:33:25:19 - 01:34:01:04
Speaker 2
So there's that connection provides you with the context and the and the motivation to undertake whatever the task is, because generally the tasks are the reason people suffer from procrastination. It's because tasks are usually annoying. You know, like I always like the the exercise example because we all know that if you exercise and you eat well, you're going to be healthier, you're going to look fucking great and you're going to feel amazing.
01:34:01:04 - 01:34:28:21
Speaker 2
We know that, but the actual task is really boring. Yeah. It's boring. You ache, you really want to be doing something else. And and it's a lot of effort. You sweat and it's, you know. And so unless you can link that task to a bigger outcome, you rely purely on willpower. And willpower is not enough over the long term.
01:34:28:23 - 01:34:50:02
Speaker 2
Willpower is fine in the short term. That's why you can give up smoking for ten days. But. But then you want another one. You can only give up smoking if you've if you've identified a bigger outcome, which is important to you in your future, that allows you to just stop smoking.
01:34:50:04 - 01:35:01:18
Speaker 2
So that's the planning piece. And then the third element of mindful is I call it the persona. I must have got that from someone, maybe Anthony Robbins. I really like Anthony Robbins.
01:35:01:19 - 01:35:02:19
Speaker 3
The Tony Robbins.
01:35:02:20 - 01:35:03:01
Speaker 2
Tony.
01:35:03:01 - 01:35:05:17
Speaker 3
Robbins, he's a giant, isn't he? Yeah. You know, he's actually a giant.
01:35:05:17 - 01:35:06:06
Speaker 2
He a giant?
01:35:06:06 - 01:35:10:01
Speaker 3
Yeah. His hands are massive. Massive? Yeah, a baseball glove. Hands.
01:35:10:01 - 01:35:10:23
Speaker 2
He is an amazing.
01:35:10:24 - 01:35:23:20
Speaker 3
Yeah, he's a G I read I read what awaken the Giant within. Superb. Which has a little half pint myself. It was quite a nice but to read. Yeah, I read that really early. I did a lot. I actually read a lot of that shit, like early doors, because I didn't know what the fuck I was doing.
01:35:23:21 - 01:35:25:03
Speaker 2
It's they are great books.
01:35:25:04 - 01:35:25:09
Speaker 3
Yeah.
01:35:25:10 - 01:35:27:04
Speaker 2
Like I'm about us in that book.
01:35:27:05 - 01:35:53:02
Speaker 3
Yeah. Because, well, because, like, I was delivering cheese around London when I finished uni in a van, in a white van, obviously. And all my mates were in finance. So I was like mate. And obviously, honestly, it was the best job I've ever done. You honestly, in terms of retrospect, honestly, I was going into the Ritz and Cheese with some cheese, but obviously and obviously I dropped all the flour at once and the chef went fucking nuts at me.
01:35:53:02 - 01:36:05:07
Speaker 3
I literally it was like I had because I'm quite clumsy. I had this trail of flour that was following me down the Ritz, and the guy was like, who's this? And to be honest, it was a bit of a job. I know the guy who owns business, right? So he was like, yeah, we need to look after that.
01:36:05:07 - 01:36:21:06
Speaker 3
And he's just got a job. But obviously everyone at the at the thing was like, what are you doing? But I'd go to the pub and obviously as you come out at university, you're quite insecure because you don't know. What the fuck are you doing? Yeah. And all my mates and at the time finance was like, you know, it was probably just after The Wolf of Wall Street came out.
01:36:21:06 - 01:36:43:16
Speaker 3
So everyone wanted to be in finance and make though. Yeah. And, and so I'd walk up to the pub, you know, in like a hive his jacket. Right. And I was like, but very interesting lessons actually from that because I'd go to these nice restaurants with my parents right there. And you go for the house. Yeah. And then when you go in the hive is jacket, you get treated like a piece of dirt.
01:36:43:16 - 01:37:12:23
Speaker 3
I bet you do. And it's such an interesting observation of humanity how someone can be complete whats. Yeah. Like when they, you know, a very, very interesting. But anyway, I was listening to a lot of this, listening to a lot of because I was in a van for 13 hours a day and also some of these books. It's interesting, like what you're saying, because I didn't know what I was doing and my thing to you're just like, pull this to my situation is, you know, I've got I've got the vision, but my whole thing is just put our podcast every Monday and, and just write a newsletter every Friday.
01:37:12:24 - 01:37:21:14
Speaker 3
And I've just done that for six years now. Well, consistently for years. And it begins to happen. You know what I mean? Yeah. I'm just it's.
01:37:21:16 - 01:37:22:09
Speaker 2
A good example.
01:37:22:10 - 01:37:26:08
Speaker 3
Just taking one action and making sure it links to the bigger vision. That's so interesting.
01:37:26:09 - 01:37:28:00
Speaker 2
As long as it links to the bigger vision.
01:37:28:01 - 01:37:48:24
Speaker 3
If you've got if someone's got a really limiting belief. Yeah, right. So like could be anything like my, my limiting beliefs. I sometimes feel like I'm just going to be die alone, which is kind of a horrible feeling. Yeah. And not really based on any like, evidence or like some people like scared shitless of public speaking or that's a common one.
01:37:48:24 - 01:38:20:05
Speaker 3
Or like, I know some blokes are scared to approach girl at a bar or some, you know, girls are scared of, like speaking up in a, in a, in a male environment and a board meeting. And I've got friends across, you know, all those cases like how how can someone crush or eviscerate a really. Yeah. Like just egregious limiting belief.
01:38:20:07 - 01:38:41:23
Speaker 2
Well, there's a whole bunch of mental exercises you need to do once you've done this preparatory work. Yeah, I'll finish the I call it the fundamentals and then I'll talk about that. Yeah. Because the third piece of so the first piece of the fundamentals is all of that compelling future purpose, all that stuff. The second is the plan.
01:38:42:00 - 01:38:44:13
Speaker 2
And then the third is the persona.
01:38:44:15 - 01:38:44:22
Speaker 3
Yes.
01:38:44:22 - 01:39:06:22
Speaker 2
That's basically the person you need to be to fulfill your plan and live to your purpose and move towards your future. And so that consists of things like the skills you need to develop. And so if.
01:39:06:24 - 01:39:36:06
Speaker 2
If one of your objectives is one of mine, is to be an amazing horse rider, you know, that's in my I have a real problem with work. I'm a I can work all the time. I'm happy to work. I love work, and in a way that's that's that's a laziness. Which sounds weird because it means because I know work, I know how to do it, and it's a comfortable place for me.
01:39:36:06 - 01:39:48:18
Speaker 2
And so anyway, I'm rambling on, but I want to. So I'm very focused on what can I do? Can I develop outside of work? And I like riding horses. I'm not very good at it, but I'd love to be brilliant.
01:39:48:22 - 01:39:50:08
Speaker 3
Where would you go riding around here?
01:39:50:14 - 01:39:51:18
Speaker 2
Regent's Park, if I wanted.
01:39:51:19 - 01:39:51:24
Speaker 3
Yeah.
01:39:51:24 - 01:39:55:19
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah, on my speed. I wouldn't do that. No, I'd have to sort of work out, but.
01:39:55:20 - 01:40:04:14
Speaker 3
That'd be pretty sick. You rocked up to meetings on a horse and. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. James Bond on a horse. Yeah, that'd be jokes.
01:40:04:16 - 01:40:11:05
Speaker 2
But in in in that if I look at that, I'd say, okay, in my skills I've got to learn how to ride a horse. I'm giving you a very basic.
01:40:11:06 - 01:40:11:20
Speaker 3
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:40:11:21 - 01:40:29:10
Speaker 2
Makes sense. And so you come up with a bunch of skills you've got to learn, then you, you come up with the, the habits you need to develop. So, you know, whatever that is around your health, your fitness. You're eating your.
01:40:29:12 - 01:41:00:22
Speaker 2
Your the your mental exercises, your work habits. You know what? You know what? Putting a podcast out every Friday, whatever they are. Habits, repeating activities which will move you towards achieving your plan and get you to your future. And then that that states states is interesting because this means what state you need to present in a given situation.
01:41:00:24 - 01:41:05:12
Speaker 2
So if you are.
01:41:05:14 - 01:41:24:07
Speaker 2
If you're if you're in a family environment, you're being an amazing father, you're very different. Your state is different to when you're in a high stakes meeting trying to close a big deal. Your state's different. You are a different. You're not a different person, but you're you're leveraging different aspects of your character and capability.
01:41:24:08 - 01:41:45:18
Speaker 3
Yeah, I've talked about this a lot actually. Like the way I would. It's kind of the context of media. Again, apply that to business is like the way you. So a billboard should be different to like a social media post should be different to a to the context. I always say it's like how I would describe my trip to Ibiza with to my grandma versus my pal who was there.
01:41:45:19 - 01:41:50:06
Speaker 3
Yeah. Still the same person, but, you know, not going to tell Nana everything.
01:41:50:07 - 01:41:50:20
Speaker 2
Exactly.
01:41:50:21 - 01:41:52:23
Speaker 3
Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Interesting.
01:41:52:23 - 01:42:14:10
Speaker 2
So and that's I mean that's from Anthony Robbins. He talks about states a lot and it's a really it's a really useful exercise to work out who it is you need to be in a given situation, because then you can consciously be it. And then as you do it, more and more it becomes a natural, it becomes natural.
01:42:14:10 - 01:42:40:18
Speaker 2
But so anyway. Those are the things that you work out under the persona. That means that once you've done that, you've got all the fundamentals done and then you get into this thing. I call it brain training, and I think this is the least talked about, but most important aspect of personal development of mental development, which is basically that you've got to actually train your mind to work differently.
01:42:40:19 - 01:42:42:09
Speaker 3
How?
01:42:42:11 - 01:43:16:04
Speaker 2
I'll tell you, it's unfortunately it's just the same as going to the gym. It's exactly the same. You basically have to work the muscle, whatever that muscle is, repeatedly in the direction you want it to behave, so that it develops that way. And so there's if you think about going to the gym, well, let me let me say this to you, if I, if we sat here and we spent a week coming up with a wonderful exercise program for you, this is what most personal development does.
01:43:16:04 - 01:43:29:05
Speaker 2
If you read it in a book, you listen to it on a tape, anything, or you sit in a classroom and do it. We sit down and we talk about you. Oh, okay. I've got to have a compelling vision. I get that, let's do that. Oh, yeah. Okay. I have a purpose. Okay. I'm going to do that. I've got my purpose and now I've got my plan.
01:43:29:05 - 01:43:50:24
Speaker 2
I've got this. Do all this, I've got that. Okay, my okay persona. I know what I'm going to do. We spent a whole week at it. You feel fucking amazing because you've got all the adrenaline and all this work. And then. And then you leave, you go back to your normal life, and suddenly you feel you haven't done anything.
01:43:51:01 - 01:43:56:12
Speaker 2
You over the course of the next few days, you just disappear back into the person you were before.
01:43:56:14 - 01:44:20:02
Speaker 3
It's great. There's a great book called After the Ecstasy, The laundry. Have you read that? No, it's it's a beautiful book about that. Like, it's kind of the Nevada of meditation. And then the laundry is like the daytime, but it's the same applies to the same thing. Yeah. And it's so true. It's like you have this ra ra moment, you know, and then it's kind of like the drudgery of life comes seeping back in.
01:44:20:03 - 01:44:35:21
Speaker 2
Well you haven't it would be the same as if we spent that week coming up with an exercise program. You talked about your biceps, your quads, and we said, if you do that and then you do this and you move this and you go, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's put that. I'm going to do five of those two sets of these okay.
01:44:35:21 - 01:44:44:22
Speaker 2
I'm going to pull that there. I'm going to run over that. That's and at the end we say that's an amazing program. And then you just put it in the drawer. That's basically what personal development does.
01:44:45:03 - 01:44:47:02
Speaker 3
So what are the exercises people have to do for their brain.
01:44:47:03 - 01:45:13:05
Speaker 2
Yeah. So the point is you then need to you then need to do the work. And I use various exercises, all of which are linked to the work that you've done on the fundamentals. So they have relevance. But I love gratitude daily. Gratitude is incredibly powerful. So basically recognizing a lot of the sort of discontent and angst in life come from not recognizing what you've got.
01:45:13:07 - 01:45:17:04
Speaker 2
So that helps enormously. Yes. Get rid of that.
01:45:17:05 - 01:45:19:15
Speaker 3
Writing it down in the morning or yeah.
01:45:19:17 - 01:45:20:13
Speaker 2
However you want to do it.
01:45:20:14 - 01:45:21:00
Speaker 3
And how do you.
01:45:21:00 - 01:45:34:22
Speaker 2
Do it? How do I have it? In my mind? I know exactly what what I want to focus on. And yeah, because I've done it a lot. But initially I had it written, all written, and I'd read it initially. And that's what I recommend people do with mindful is they write it down and they learn it like a script.
01:45:34:23 - 01:45:36:06
Speaker 3
Yeah.
01:45:36:08 - 01:45:46:24
Speaker 2
The second one I really like is affirmations. I think they're incredibly powerful, especially you mentioned your fear around the business.
01:45:47:01 - 01:45:48:00
Speaker 3
What's an affirmation?
01:45:48:01 - 01:45:55:12
Speaker 2
A affirmation is basically saying something as if it's real, affirming it. You're affirming that, let's say, for instance.
01:45:55:16 - 01:45:58:02
Speaker 3
So I want to make 1 million pounds from podcasting.
01:45:58:03 - 01:45:58:19
Speaker 2
You would say.
01:45:58:20 - 01:46:00:11
Speaker 3
I am what I write.
01:46:00:11 - 01:46:12:14
Speaker 2
I'm, I'm going to make 1 million pounds. Yeah. And you develop some people say that you should say it as if you've already done it and some people do that. I don't I like to say I like.
01:46:12:16 - 01:46:16:09
Speaker 3
Going to. Yeah I like yeah, yeah, yeah. So it gives it the going to give hope to it isn't it.
01:46:16:09 - 01:46:46:14
Speaker 2
And you work as much emotion into it as a possible. And it needs to be connected with your or your work. So it has to be relevant to you because bland exercises like bland affirmations, they're okay, but they're not. They don't work as well. Like you can say, I feel amazing, I look amazing, I am amazing that that's a bland affirmation that could apply to anyone.
01:46:46:17 - 01:47:07:11
Speaker 2
If you relate it to your personal desires and fears, then it's much more effective, much more effective. And so if you took your fears around the business and you developed a really, really tight set of affirmations and you practice them every morning.
01:47:07:14 - 01:47:09:07
Speaker 3
To read them out, yeah, yeah.
01:47:09:08 - 01:47:11:12
Speaker 2
You read them or you repeat them in your head.
01:47:11:14 - 01:47:13:18
Speaker 3
I'm going to do this at home. Yeah, yeah.
01:47:13:22 - 01:47:35:10
Speaker 2
Every morning. Yeah I do ten times and I do ten. So I do a hundred. So I do ten. I pick something and it can be anything like I don't like socializing at all. I'm not good at it. I can be quite good at it. I don't like it. Yeah. And the reason is I don't drink anymore. And I used to be a great partier.
01:47:35:13 - 01:47:39:10
Speaker 3
And that pre prison, you stop drinking.
01:47:39:14 - 01:47:47:13
Speaker 2
A long time. When I started it, once the business really started going, I couldn't do both because I was. We were out on the razz every night and you know.
01:47:47:19 - 01:47:48:08
Speaker 3
I got that.
01:47:48:08 - 01:47:52:06
Speaker 2
Tour in the morning that's fucked up. And and going to the office at six.
01:47:52:08 - 01:47:54:10
Speaker 3
Yeah, I'm in that period now. It's so much fun.
01:47:54:13 - 01:47:56:06
Speaker 2
You might have to make a call on it.
01:47:56:07 - 01:47:59:06
Speaker 3
I've done like three months, like sober.
01:47:59:11 - 01:48:00:04
Speaker 2
And I've found.
01:48:00:04 - 01:48:04:04
Speaker 3
That everything in moderation and everything in moderation, including moderation.
01:48:04:05 - 01:48:11:21
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. No, I do agree with that, because otherwise you become Taurus as I'm the most boring man she's ever met now.
01:48:11:23 - 01:48:15:14
Speaker 2
But I don't know what I was saying. What was I saying?
01:48:15:16 - 01:48:17:10
Speaker 3
So, so so ten times.
01:48:17:11 - 01:48:18:15
Speaker 2
Yeah. So sorry.
01:48:18:17 - 01:48:19:24
Speaker 3
Reading it out ten times.
01:48:20:00 - 01:48:42:15
Speaker 2
So I was saying socially. Yeah. So, so I if I've got a social event in my morning affirmations, I will consciously tell myself that I'm going to have an amazing time. And I'm really excited about going, I'm going to get a load out of it. And that has a transformational effect on my demeanor. I don't worry about it beforehand, you know?
01:48:42:16 - 01:48:58:08
Speaker 2
And I really embrace it and I and I get a lot out of it. And that's because over years I've programed myself to think of social events negatively. You think of them positively and that's great. You should, because they are very positive events.
01:48:58:09 - 01:49:21:16
Speaker 3
Well, no, no. So I don't like I hate any sort of sorry I put my foot in the table. Sorry. Sorry mate. Getting too comfortable down here, but like so I don't like conferences or like any big wanky event like that. That's not my vibe at all. Like, I like just going to the pub and like 5 or 6 people I really know, like the idea of a big networking event gives me the IC.
01:49:21:17 - 01:49:26:22
Speaker 3
Okay. Yeah. And I can again, I can do it. But like, I just I really don't like the small talk.
01:49:26:24 - 01:49:30:08
Speaker 2
So if you've got one of those you should do the. Yeah.
01:49:30:10 - 01:49:30:17
Speaker 3
Yeah.
01:49:30:18 - 01:49:32:20
Speaker 2
So you pick you you know do it.
01:49:32:22 - 01:49:49:04
Speaker 3
So have you had of mad. You had a mad fest. Oh what. Mad fest. No. Oh you should you should definitely speak at that. It's a sick conference. They do it in East London. But I went and I. I walked in there and I was like, everyone's got a lanyard. It's just like I'm. I'm a twat. Basically.
01:49:49:05 - 01:49:52:04
Speaker 3
It's like, yeah, yeah, you know, oh, I work for BA and.
01:49:52:07 - 01:49:54:02
Speaker 2
Like, very suited to the corporate world.
01:49:54:03 - 01:50:12:08
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah. And so I said, I said fuck this and took like three people and we went to the Ten Bells pub. Didn't watch one talk. Honestly, I won't say who the. I'll tell you the person. Well it was like that. Just going there has been and getting pissed with them all day has been revolutionary for my business because I actually built a really good connection with them.
01:50:12:09 - 01:50:20:09
Speaker 3
They've opened up a lot of doors for me. So pubs conference? Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. That's actually a really good strategy. Just get 3 or 4 people.
01:50:20:09 - 01:50:20:20
Speaker 2
That people.
01:50:20:20 - 01:50:21:16
Speaker 3
Do that. Yeah.
01:50:21:17 - 01:50:25:24
Speaker 2
They don't even sign up for the conference. Yeah. Go. And they. Yeah.
01:50:26:00 - 01:50:29:10
Speaker 3
Get on the air. Sorry. So let's then I do want to get on to the sales sales stuff.
01:50:29:10 - 01:50:57:06
Speaker 2
So I think affirmations very powerful. Yeah. The, the other one I think is brilliant is a switch exercise. It's called the switch exercise. When you when you have established beliefs or messages, internal messages about your about anything that are limiting you or you want to change, you basically take a piece of paper and you write, you put a line down the middle on the left.
01:50:57:06 - 01:51:19:21
Speaker 2
You write down all the messages. So you listen to yourself. Because one of the things I noticed when I went to prison, which I'd never realized before, is we talked to ourselves all day, all day. I mean, like millions of times a day we're talking and those those whatever words you're saying to yourself come from your beliefs and your past events.
01:51:19:23 - 01:51:39:10
Speaker 2
So you've got to write down if it's associated with a specific thing. You write down all of the messages you tell yourself on the left, and then on the right you work out the counter. So you you work out the positive counter to that message, and then you end up with a piece of paper with things on both sides.
01:51:39:10 - 01:51:54:04
Speaker 2
The one on the left is the one you want to get rid of. The one on the right, the one is the one you want to develop. You learn it like a script. And so every day you look at it, you say, okay, well, I'm the worst father that's ever lived. That's that's the message I'm telling myself over here.
01:51:54:04 - 01:52:14:17
Speaker 2
It says, actually, you're not that bad. You provided really well. You love them. When you were there, you were great. You weren't that present. But you're a nice guy. You know, all the stuff you can come up with. Yeah, and you learn it and you're initially you learn it like a script. Then you have to train yourself to switch.
01:52:14:17 - 01:52:43:03
Speaker 2
Every time your mind thinks that you're the worst father on earth, you immediately say, no, you're not. I mean, you might have to do it 200 times a day. 300 times. No I'm not. No I'm not. Anyway, over the course of 3 or 4 weeks, the left page becomes quieter and quieter, and the right page becomes dominant. Eventually, after about six weeks, maybe eight weeks, there is no left page.
01:52:43:05 - 01:52:44:18
Speaker 2
You don't think it anymore.
01:52:44:20 - 01:52:49:17
Speaker 3
So? So any other exercises that you think are good that switch ones brilliant.
01:52:49:19 - 01:53:11:17
Speaker 2
Switch is amazing. The other one I love is if you've got I have a phobia of rats and in my normal life this didn't cause me any trouble. But going to prison as rats everywhere, right? And and it's a proper phobia. It's not like a joke. It's a sort of sweat.
01:53:11:18 - 01:53:14:15
Speaker 3
Break my mind. My mates got that about spiders. Yeah, yeah.
01:53:14:18 - 01:53:40:24
Speaker 2
And so, so I got in one of the prisons. I got forced into a job in the kitchen. And the kitchen is the worst because there's rats and mice everywhere. And so I had to do something quite significant. I came across this exercise in a NLP book, neuro linguistics programing. It's amazing. I mean, it's really amazing.
01:53:40:24 - 01:53:41:23
Speaker 2
Basically.
01:53:42:04 - 01:53:45:18
Speaker 3
Neuralink program is in your retrying, retraining, the conversation you had.
01:53:45:18 - 01:54:18:10
Speaker 2
Essentially you're retraining your brain basically. Yeah. Yeah. You're rewiring it. Yeah. It's a lot of what I'm talking about is NLP. Yeah, a lot of Tony Robbins stuff is an LP. Yeah. He with a very early practitioner of it. So you basically imagine that you're sitting in a cinema and you're looking at the massive cinema screen, you, you, you roll up the film and on the film is your image of your fear in this instance, because it's a phobia we're talking about.
01:54:18:10 - 01:54:44:05
Speaker 2
And my image is I'm on holiday somewhere in maybe Greece or somewhere I'm under in a little cave and there's hundreds of rats. That's where I get it from because I, you know, like there's hundreds of rats. And I'm very young and I don't even previous to this exercise, I couldn't even have had this conversation with you about that image.
01:54:44:05 - 01:55:06:00
Speaker 2
So I then I have the I throw it up on the screen. You have to make it really bright. You have to live the moment like you're sweating, you feel sick, you live it. The sounds you've got, it's on a massive cinema screen. Then you turn it black and white, the image on the screen. So it's not. It's dull.
01:55:06:02 - 01:55:30:06
Speaker 2
Then you take all the sound away in your head and then you. Then you throw the image visually away so that this cinema screen gets smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller, and it's way out in the distance. It's tiny. It's you can't even see it. It's a tiny black dot. And.
01:55:30:08 - 01:55:34:01
Speaker 2
That's, that's that's the exercise.
01:55:34:03 - 01:55:51:22
Speaker 2
Do that a few times. Completely fixes. You could put a rat on my I'd give it a little stroke. I don't even nothing. It is mad. Mad I mean there's still a little something in there about that. But it's not it's not.
01:55:51:24 - 01:55:52:19
Speaker 3
That's crazy.
01:55:52:20 - 01:56:33:06
Speaker 2
And anyway, there's tons of exercises. I use about 15 to 20 through the program exercises. There's a thing about inputs and outcomes. So once you've done all the background work again you can you can identify you can summarize the outcomes you want in your life. And you can work out the inputs. And then it starts to sort of increase the connection between the two of all the stuff we do in our life, whether that's getting out of bed early or whether it's eating properly or whether it's, you know, phoning your mum on a Sunday or whatever you do, you connect it to an outcome.
01:56:33:09 - 01:56:44:09
Speaker 2
And the minute you connect it to an outcome and the stronger the desire for the outcome is, the less you have to worry about wanting to do it. You will want to do it.
01:56:44:10 - 01:57:00:07
Speaker 3
Yeah. It's mad. Let's talk about sales. Oh yeah, I love sales. So we've got about 20 minutes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The. Yeah, I love the Art of the deal. I love as in like, not the book, but like, the the book's good. Yeah. No, no, that's trumps.
01:57:00:08 - 01:57:01:05
Speaker 2
A very good book.
01:57:01:06 - 01:57:03:21
Speaker 3
What's what. Okay. Let's. I'm not I'm.
01:57:03:22 - 01:57:04:20
Speaker 2
Not talking about Trump.
01:57:04:21 - 01:57:22:16
Speaker 3
No, no I'm now I'm now hustling like a mad fucker for deals. Right. Yeah. And what's what's your approach to attack for, like, getting getting your business through the door.
01:57:22:18 - 01:57:47:07
Speaker 2
Well, the first thing is you've got to have a differentiated proposition. So you're. Most companies. No, I don't know. There's most companies. A lot of companies I see focus on their product and they think that they're selling their product. The proposition is different. The proposition is basically looking at the product from the buyer's perspective, from the audience's perspective.
01:57:47:11 - 01:58:13:04
Speaker 2
And so, the reason I say you've got to have a differentiated proposition is because you are competing for the person's business against whoever else it is that you're competing with. Some people need more of a differentiated product than others. You will need a very differentiated product in the mind of the buyer. The actual product might not be different.
01:58:13:05 - 01:58:38:16
Speaker 2
Am I making any sense? Yeah. So the first thing you have to do is work on your differentiation. And you need to align that differentiation with value that is relevant to your audience. So whatever the value point is for your audience, you need to bake that into your proposition. And that value point will change depending on who you're selling to.
01:58:38:18 - 01:59:02:04
Speaker 2
If you're selling to a CEO, it's very different to selling to a director of something. They have different agendas. They're measured on different things, which then takes you to your second thing. You've got to get your proposition right. You need to know who your audience is, who who are, who is your buyer. And you might have multiple types of buyer in a big deal.
01:59:02:06 - 01:59:20:21
Speaker 2
You have lots of different types of buyers, but you need to know who they are and what's important to them, so you can align your proposition with what's valuable to them. And and then you need to work on your pitch for those different audiences. And then you need to work on your sales method.
01:59:20:23 - 01:59:27:20
Speaker 3
So how to prep for a big pitch and how would I do that? How would you do that?
01:59:27:22 - 01:59:43:19
Speaker 2
Well, it depends on what your proposition is. But you any decent sales meeting involves the prospect giving much more than the seller.
01:59:43:21 - 01:59:46:06
Speaker 3
Yeah. So you're trying to extract information.
01:59:46:10 - 02:00:03:02
Speaker 2
And that if you remember that one principle that should guide how you structure your first meeting. I mean, for instance, if you go for lunch or dinner with a prospect, if, let me I'm going to get this right.
02:00:03:03 - 02:00:04:15
Speaker 3
They should be doing most of the talking.
02:00:04:17 - 02:00:24:24
Speaker 2
Oh yeah. They have to do all that. If you if they finish their food before you. You are an absolute loser. I mean, you are the worst. You shouldn't even be in sales. Because what it means is you've spent the whole lunch talking and they've just been eating. They need to spend the whole lunch talking. And you're doing the.
02:00:25:02 - 02:00:26:03
Speaker 3
Wow. Yes.
02:00:26:07 - 02:00:49:22
Speaker 2
And so the same applies in a sales meeting or a or a pitch. Your job is basically to stimulate the prospect and then get them excited and guide them in a way that takes them down the path of your proposition and your your points of value, and allows you to discover their pain.
02:00:49:24 - 02:00:54:03
Speaker 3
Yeah. Alex Moses got a thing which the the pain is the pitch.
02:00:54:05 - 02:00:54:21
Speaker 2
Totally.
02:00:54:22 - 02:01:18:23
Speaker 3
I love that, and it's like I mean, I love this all this sales stuff I could talk about for ages, but like, so then. So yeah, really finding out what their pain is, what their needs are. And the more you kind of press on that pain, the more you can create a solution. It's interesting. Like with the podcast, like what we're like, what are the only really businesses food and drink podcast a lot of food and drink podcasts that talk about like we never actually really talk about.
02:01:18:24 - 02:01:19:19
Speaker 2
Food and drink.
02:01:19:20 - 02:01:34:09
Speaker 3
Yeah. Really it's I never talk. I'm not I'm not a fucking chef. No. So I'm not going to for me to sit there and go, oh yeah, you made was so delicious. Yeah. Like I've, I've never been in the kitchen. So it's all about how did you get the restaurant. How did you make money so that when we're selling it to sponsors is our point of differentiation?
02:01:34:10 - 02:01:52:24
Speaker 3
So you have a very unique audience. Yeah. So that's our point of differentiate differentiation. It's so interesting that I love these little tactics. So you know, I'll never use a deck. Not more because everyone now has a deck. Yeah. And I just don't think I don't I think it works better without. Yeah. And I also think, like, you wouldn't go on a first date with the deck.
02:01:53:00 - 02:01:56:20
Speaker 3
No. Right. Like you'd be a proper loser if you're doing that. Yeah.
02:01:56:22 - 02:01:57:20
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.
02:01:57:22 - 02:02:19:20
Speaker 3
You know, I've got size ten feet, like, you know. Yeah. So that's interesting. So then, so basically. So then if you get more information out of them. When we were having our coffee mate, you said so there's you know, the old adage is don't sell the features, sell the benefits. I think the nuance you had is there's don't sell the features, don't sell the benefits.
02:02:19:21 - 02:02:24:10
Speaker 3
Sell the outcome. Yeah, I think that goes deeper. Like talk to me about that.
02:02:24:12 - 02:02:46:23
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean that that is our when we had touch base, we were winning extraordinary business from major competitors. And we were a little company from London with no money basically. And the reason was that we were very focused on outcomes. So if rather than products. So if someone spent a pound with us, what would they get out of it?
02:02:46:24 - 02:03:15:08
Speaker 2
What would they get out of it from a return perspective financially? What would they get out of it from a customer experience perspective? What would they get out of it from an internal people? But whatever the measure was, we were very focused on selling that. And by the way, you've got to do this, which is the tech. But we were really into the outcome and that that way of selling is a differentiator in its own right because most don't do it.
02:03:15:10 - 02:03:23:04
Speaker 2
And so if you go to someone I mean, let me, let me say if I, if I went to you and I said,
02:03:23:06 - 02:03:49:12
Speaker 2
Give me, give me $500 and I'll give you back $10,000 a week on Friday. And you believe me. And I say, here's five times I've done it before, and you know, you you've got confidence at me. You'd be jumping over the table to give me the $500. So why don't you take that principle and bake it into the way that you pitch your capability?
02:03:49:12 - 02:03:57:08
Speaker 2
Because if you can go to a client, which we did, and say, okay, look, Nestlé, you're spending.
02:03:57:10 - 02:04:18:08
Speaker 2
I'm trying to remember the real numbers. I can't remember, but you're spending you're spending 8 million a year on your voice and data services in North America currently. And we think that if you do these four things, we can get that 8 to 4 and save you 4 million a year. And then of course, you six to do it.
02:04:18:10 - 02:04:31:05
Speaker 2
They don't think, oh, I've got to spend 6 million. What you asking me for six. I can't find $6 million. They think, fuck me, you can get me whatever. I'm the number 4 million out of my opex a year forever. Yeah, I'll buy that.
02:04:31:10 - 02:04:31:23
Speaker 3
Oh.
02:04:32:02 - 02:04:49:09
Speaker 2
And you you then start. You get this sort of enormous energy in the deal from the buyer's side, because they're not just thinking of you as a cost. So, yeah, I mean, I think outcomes.
02:04:49:11 - 02:04:50:03
Speaker 3
I love that.
02:04:50:04 - 02:04:50:17
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean.
02:04:50:21 - 02:05:10:11
Speaker 3
Another thing I've someone taught me is like make your by a famous if you're in a big corporation. So like if say say selling supermarkets right. There's multiple buyers for different categories. Like people can go in and be like oh this is my you know, you know, this is my it's kind of links to that outcome thing. It's like, what do people actually want?
02:05:10:12 - 02:05:17:00
Speaker 3
They don't really care about your brand. They want to be known as the as the as the buyer who found the most innovative kombucha.
02:05:17:01 - 02:05:17:11
Speaker 2
Totally.
02:05:17:12 - 02:05:31:10
Speaker 3
Yeah. And they want to be able to be able to tell everyone at work that they were the one that found it, so that they can also be get a pay rise so they can ultimately go on holiday and by their kids some fucking toys. Right. And I feel like that as soon as someone told me that, it changed everything.
02:05:31:12 - 02:05:44:14
Speaker 3
You're starting to change the conversation about like, this is my product. Buy it. Like needy. It's like, oh, we're going to make you famous. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, yeah. What other one? Other bits. So also with the outreach. How many, how many, how many calls were you doing to land the.
02:05:44:15 - 02:05:45:02
Speaker 2
Same anymore?
02:05:45:03 - 02:05:48:22
Speaker 3
Is it because now apparently you can do videos on LinkedIn that works really well?
02:05:49:03 - 02:05:55:22
Speaker 2
No, I don't mean that that's not as relevant, but it's a different way of doing it now. But we would do of course, usually about a hundred a day.
02:05:55:24 - 02:05:57:10
Speaker 3
Yeah I see I love.
02:05:57:11 - 02:05:59:07
Speaker 2
Calls. It was 100 a day and you might.
02:05:59:08 - 02:06:02:23
Speaker 3
It's the first thing you'd say on the call.
02:06:03:00 - 02:06:15:04
Speaker 2
I don't remember I like that. What's funny? What's the telephone? God, I haven't done that for a long time. That's how spoiled I am now. I don't do that.
02:06:15:05 - 02:06:17:11
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, but I just find it interesting.
02:06:17:12 - 02:06:23:00
Speaker 2
It's an amazing skill. If you can do cold calling. And really, everyone should do it to start.
02:06:23:01 - 02:06:24:22
Speaker 3
Well, that's what I did when I was in the peanut butter thing.
02:06:24:23 - 02:06:27:02
Speaker 2
Yeah, I'm sure it's just so brutal.
02:06:27:05 - 02:06:43:19
Speaker 3
So brutal. But, like, I feel like the lessons I took from that were have been so valuable with getting on the podcast that there's once I called this guy in Budgens and he goes, I don't need another peanut butter because I don't need the peanut butter. And I go, I can be there by 1:00. All I need is a spoon in five minutes.
02:06:43:20 - 02:06:53:17
Speaker 3
And he goes, you know. And then I said, just trust me. I gave him a spoon and he bought it. And we actually ended up selling loads, loads there. I love that.
02:06:53:18 - 02:06:54:03
Speaker 2
I love that.
02:06:54:06 - 02:07:15:08
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah. I try all sorts. And also I think, I think swearing is quite funny like in sales pitching. Because if anyone is getting the phone call. Oh hi there. How are you today. And you like and I sometimes you'd call go fuck me. I'm sorry. I've just done my toe and it makes it human within the first 10s.
02:07:15:09 - 02:07:20:07
Speaker 3
Yeah, I love it. I could yeah, yeah, yeah. Break anything else? I love all this stuff.
02:07:20:08 - 02:07:22:05
Speaker 2
Like that.
02:07:22:07 - 02:07:33:00
Speaker 3
Yeah. What other like, what's the art of closing? Like, massive business. So I say I wanted to bring on bring on a sponsor that was pay me 1 million pounds. Like, how would I do that?
02:07:33:02 - 02:07:58:19
Speaker 2
I think it starts with this principle of outcome, which is that if you make the outcome compelling enough, it will close itself. I know that sounds a bit twee, but it is true. And when you look at pipelines in sales teams and you see lots of deals hanging, very common. Yeah, that's partially the salesperson wanting the security of the deal, but knowing it's not going to happen.
02:07:58:19 - 02:08:08:21
Speaker 2
But it's mainly because they haven't articulated enough value in the deal. If there's enough value in the deal, then the deal will close. There's there's no question.
02:08:08:21 - 02:08:13:09
Speaker 3
But what so how do you demonstrate more value?
02:08:13:10 - 02:08:25:00
Speaker 2
By focusing on the outcome. And that's all about that's all about building your sales method to discover areas of value within the client.
02:08:25:02 - 02:08:32:21
Speaker 3
So how would you what's again, what questions would you ask to find on on hidden areas of value that other people wouldn't find?
02:08:32:22 - 02:08:57:05
Speaker 2
Well, you've just got to ask open questions about their business. And I mean, I'm talking about business to business sales. I don't understand consumer. I'm not I just I've never done it. So. But you you have to have an element of discovery in, in the sales process. That might be a really it depends what the product is, depends on what the might be really short and small, or it might be a foot.
02:08:57:06 - 02:09:15:20
Speaker 2
We used to have full on Discovery Days, you know, like three days where we would go into the client organization, we'd find out everything about what they're spending, what their customer experience is, what you know, and then we turn that into a value proposition that said, you know, if you spend this and you do these things, you'll get this back.
02:09:15:24 - 02:09:34:22
Speaker 2
And that creates the momentum in the deal. Usually the easiest is financial. I mean, if you can say to someone, I'll give you give me 500, I'll give you ten grand back. You usually it's a no brainer. Sometimes it's not that easy to make it financial.
02:09:34:24 - 02:09:50:14
Speaker 3
So that's what I was going to say. You might have to, but sometimes there's an opaque information like that's about I found hard like so we don't know, you know, you don't know what you're selling. So you don't know how sometimes we've had it with sponsors. They don't they don't want to tell us their ROI because it's their information.
02:09:50:19 - 02:10:10:12
Speaker 3
So that's kind of hard sometimes hard information to get. Yeah. You know that's just happened like we, we have on you know, we have on on we, you know, we work with a couple of agencies and they, they didn't want to share the exact numbers on the row of the podcast sponsorship, but it was like they could tell me the number of leads they brought in off the back of it.
02:10:10:14 - 02:10:17:17
Speaker 3
I mean, but like so it's kind of maybe it's how you frame it as like the sponsor for this much, got this many leads. You know, I'm trying to say.
02:10:17:18 - 02:10:42:02
Speaker 2
It's what you need. You need to get that as granular as you can with the outcome. I mean, the reason Google AdWords works so well, the reason it's so mega is because it turned advertising from a sort of hope and, you know, sort of spend and hope to something approaching science where you could link spend to outcome. I mean, that's why people love it.
02:10:42:04 - 02:10:51:22
Speaker 3
What's the craziest deal you've ever done? Like when everything was hanging by a thread when you walked into the meeting?
02:10:51:24 - 02:10:54:13
Speaker 2
The best. This is the best.
02:10:54:14 - 02:10:54:19
Speaker 3
Yeah.
02:10:54:20 - 02:10:56:08
Speaker 2
Gone meeting I've ever done.
02:10:56:09 - 02:10:57:06
Speaker 7
Where was it?
02:10:57:07 - 02:10:58:02
Speaker 2
Oracle.
02:10:58:07 - 02:10:58:23
Speaker 7
Oracle?
02:10:59:02 - 02:10:59:08
Speaker 3
Yeah.
02:10:59:09 - 02:10:59:24
Speaker 7
Where's that?
02:11:00:00 - 02:11:02:05
Speaker 2
So Oracle is you know the big us.
02:11:02:06 - 02:11:02:22
Speaker 3
Yeah I know what it is.
02:11:02:22 - 02:11:03:20
Speaker 7
But whereabouts.
02:11:03:20 - 02:11:08:18
Speaker 2
You were trying to win their European.
02:11:08:20 - 02:11:21:01
Speaker 2
Their European managed service. But it was a big deal I don't know how much it was. We had this guy in Switzerland.
02:11:21:03 - 02:11:29:12
Speaker 2
An engineer in Switzerland called Ralph. He was very Swiss. He was brilliant, but he was very Swiss.
02:11:29:13 - 02:11:30:22
Speaker 3
Very Swiss.
02:11:30:24 - 02:11:40:03
Speaker 2
Well, they find it difficult to go with the flow on the sales patter when you're, you know. Because you've got to paint a picture.
02:11:40:04 - 02:11:41:12
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've got to sell the dream.
02:11:41:13 - 02:12:15:00
Speaker 2
Yeah, you're selling the dream. So I'm full, full flow. Sailing in this big meeting with the Oracle European leadership team about touch base. How amazing we were. We were amazing. That bit wasn't smoke and mirrors, but our coverage in Germany and Switzerland was Ralph. And we had good coverage in France and Holland and Spain, but they were big in.
02:12:15:06 - 02:12:28:10
Speaker 2
So I'm fucking waxing lyrical about our coverage and how amazing we are in Europe. And, and, and I hear from my. No no no no. Done. No no no no it is only me.
02:12:28:11 - 02:12:30:04
Speaker 8
Oh no.
02:12:30:06 - 02:12:34:18
Speaker 2
Painting this picture of massive men in vans.
02:12:34:19 - 02:12:35:19
Speaker 8
Yeah yeah, yeah.
02:12:35:23 - 02:12:36:10
Speaker 2
Ralph said.
02:12:36:10 - 02:12:37:11
Speaker 8
No no, no.
02:12:37:13 - 02:12:39:21
Speaker 2
And it's like the whole room went.
02:12:39:23 - 02:12:40:14
Speaker 8
Oh.
02:12:40:16 - 02:12:45:15
Speaker 2
And somehow I managed to recover it because we did win.
02:12:45:15 - 02:12:46:20
Speaker 8
But how did you recover.
02:12:46:20 - 02:12:48:03
Speaker 2
It I can't remember.
02:12:48:04 - 02:12:49:06
Speaker 3
Yeah, that's a.
02:12:49:08 - 02:12:59:11
Speaker 2
Much more mumble swerve, but that's definitely my most memorable because I look how I remember it. I mean, all the that that was my most memorable.
02:12:59:15 - 02:13:10:21
Speaker 3
It's I love it. So like I did a lot of field like sales like, like every weekend I'd go and sell this peanut butter in like different shops around London and like, it's hard to get. It's basically.
02:13:10:22 - 02:13:11:17
Speaker 2
Like that's brutal.
02:13:11:17 - 02:13:13:07
Speaker 3
It's brutal. But I loved all these.
02:13:13:07 - 02:13:13:22
Speaker 8
Little tricks.
02:13:13:24 - 02:13:34:12
Speaker 3
So I'd go to like, it's just one of my things that Zig Ziglar is using different analogy and picture language to sell stuff. Yeah. So like in Saint John's Wood, I genuinely in this deli in Saint John's Wood Panzers. Jenny about a fucking hundred yards and like two hours. I would just say two things. Either this is the Ferrari of peanut butter and they'd run it within two minutes.
02:13:34:14 - 02:13:35:18
Speaker 8
Really? Yeah.
02:13:35:19 - 02:13:49:17
Speaker 3
And then the other one was like, this was when it was 5 pounds for a pint. It's like 5 pounds for a pint. That gives that happiness. Goes within in 3 minutes or 10 minutes. This is 5 pounds for a peanut butter. The happiness will last for two weeks.
02:13:49:18 - 02:13:52:07
Speaker 8
And like. Yeah. And like I love all those little.
02:13:52:11 - 02:13:53:15
Speaker 3
These little things work.
02:13:53:19 - 02:13:54:13
Speaker 2
Yeah, they do work.
02:13:54:14 - 02:14:05:03
Speaker 3
It's like painting the picture. Yeah yeah yeah. Any other, like, principles or lessons? Got about five minutes. Just. I could talk about this stuff for days, I love it.
02:14:05:03 - 02:14:08:00
Speaker 2
No, it's a big topic. Yeah.
02:14:08:02 - 02:14:22:23
Speaker 3
What about trying to close the deal? If it's gone, if they've come back with a no. Because I think sometimes the nose just. It's another. It's just they need. I think you can press people like a no is not a no. That makes sense. No means yeah. No. Not like no means yes.
02:14:23:01 - 02:14:25:06
Speaker 2
You mean. Yeah.
02:14:25:07 - 02:14:26:17
Speaker 3
Like anything you've done to like, I.
02:14:26:17 - 02:14:41:07
Speaker 2
Don't really like the idea of coming in to rescue a deal. I think it's too late. At that stage. I used to get asked that a lot. Come on, we're going to lose it. We're going to lose it. And I said, why don't you get me in at the start?
02:14:41:09 - 02:14:43:22
Speaker 3
So what have you done differently at the start to communicate value?
02:14:43:23 - 02:15:00:05
Speaker 2
Yeah I don't know all the selling, but but even if I'd been engaged at the start, I would then have more leverage at the end, you know, because I'd have been a part of the other than coming at the end and trying to save it, like, oh, I'm going to get my sales manager involved. It's like, I don't think that's a very intelligent way to do it.
02:15:00:05 - 02:15:32:13
Speaker 2
But you're right. I mean, you should always understand the objection and overcome the objection. I mean, that is sales. And that is at any point in the sales cycle. Obviously, sometimes you can't overcome it. But but if you've got enough control over the deal, which leads to another area of discussion, which is massively under focused on which is qualification deal qualification.
02:15:32:15 - 02:15:33:20
Speaker 3
What do you mean by that?
02:15:33:21 - 02:15:58:22
Speaker 2
Well, if you there are all sorts of tools you can use or methodologies for qualifying a deal, working out, how likely is it that this deal is going to happen? How much control do I have it? Where do I need to focus in the deal. And we used to use one called network which was need, effort, time scale, work opportunity, risk threat or something.
02:15:58:24 - 02:16:04:17
Speaker 2
There's these new ones called pick.
02:16:04:19 - 02:16:30:07
Speaker 2
It's probably not that new now, but it's basically a systematic way to analyze a deal so that you can see how your positioned within it, how well you've articulated your value, who the buyers are, you know, so you can sort of grade it and either say, we're not going to, we're going to we're not going to bother with this one or say, I need to do these five things in order to get it to where I want to go.
02:16:30:09 - 02:16:37:17
Speaker 2
That is a deal. Qualification is a majorly important part of running a quality sales.
02:16:37:19 - 02:16:40:11
Speaker 3
Almost under understanding who to go after.
02:16:40:13 - 02:16:58:09
Speaker 2
It's understanding your deal and people don't. You'd be amazed how they sort of live in hope. It's going to close. We're going to get it. Why? Well, we just have to. That's not really we need it for the quarter.
02:16:58:11 - 02:16:59:22
Speaker 9
Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.
02:16:59:24 - 02:17:02:12
Speaker 2
That's not going to that's not why it's going to close.
02:17:02:13 - 02:17:10:01
Speaker 3
And so what sort of stuff should I be looking thinking about with in terms of qualifying deals. So obviously ones probably budgets twos fit like.
02:17:10:02 - 02:17:25:01
Speaker 2
Yeah need need. Have you established the need. Yeah. How much effort is that deal going to take you. If it's too much then you should focus on other deals. I'm just going through my network. Yeah.
02:17:25:03 - 02:17:52:20
Speaker 2
Time. Yeah, yeah. How much time is it going to take? Is it a two year? Is it going to take you two years? In which case it might not fit with your what you need. You might need a deal next week. Timescale work. How much works involved on both sides. I can't remember the rest, but the best one, if you're doing a complex sale, is pick me.
02:17:52:22 - 02:18:04:13
Speaker 2
I think it's medi. You can see I've been out of this for a long time. Pick. It doesn't matter which one you choose. There's another one called sportsman. They're all the same and they're really good.
02:18:04:13 - 02:18:06:00
Speaker 3
What's med pick stand for?
02:18:06:03 - 02:18:06:13
Speaker 2
I don't.
02:18:06:13 - 02:18:07:10
Speaker 3
Know.
02:18:07:11 - 02:18:07:13
Speaker 2
My.
02:18:07:13 - 02:18:09:04
Speaker 3
Head, but I can google it.
02:18:09:05 - 02:18:09:11
Speaker 2
Yeah.
02:18:09:11 - 02:18:13:07
Speaker 3
Do and so. And then sports mix of a sportsman sales. Yeah.
02:18:13:09 - 02:18:33:07
Speaker 2
Stands for something. It's all the same sort of stuff but it's really good for qualifying deals. And if you're running, if you're if you want to run a decent sales operation, you need to qualify your deals because there's a lot of time wasting that goes on. Especially you need to because you've got lots of other stuff to do.
02:18:33:11 - 02:18:37:18
Speaker 2
Yeah, and you've got some big strategic deals. And so.
02:18:37:19 - 02:18:40:02
Speaker 3
Yeah, so those big ones have taken my time.
02:18:40:03 - 02:18:40:16
Speaker 2
Yeah, you need to.
02:18:40:16 - 02:18:47:09
Speaker 3
Run them. But I also like I like the kind of, you know, the little quick ones that come in just a little bit of dough coming in just to keep you, you know. No.
02:18:47:09 - 02:18:48:05
Speaker 2
There's nothing wrong with that.
02:18:48:05 - 02:19:03:24
Speaker 3
At all. Yeah. I like those sort of small ones that you can basically do the whole deal on WhatsApp. Yeah, that's what we're doing one now. Yeah. And it's just voice notes on WhatsApp. I'm like, this is just like whereas the big more strategic ones like emails upload to Google Docs, every fucking well needs to sign it off.
02:19:04:00 - 02:19:09:00
Speaker 3
Like, yeah, you've got lunch, but I could talk to you for hours. Honestly, it's.
02:19:09:01 - 02:19:09:18
Speaker 2
So.
02:19:09:20 - 02:19:17:02
Speaker 3
We could talk. Yeah. Do a whole podcast on sales. The final question, like what are some of the best, most transformative books you read in prison?
02:19:17:03 - 02:19:20:00
Speaker 2
Well, I always talk about man's search for meaning.
02:19:20:01 - 02:19:20:07
Speaker 3
Yes.
02:19:20:09 - 02:19:41:07
Speaker 2
Which is Viktor Frankl. It is an extraordinary book. And it really changed my life and allowed me to get through prison. So if anyone is facing, you know, uncertainty or challenges in their life, they should read that the the second one is I always mention is.
02:19:41:09 - 02:19:44:11
Speaker 2
Mind is the Master by James Allen.
02:19:44:11 - 02:19:45:22
Speaker 3
That's a big old book, isn't it?
02:19:45:24 - 02:20:13:06
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's a collection of essays. That's brilliant. Think and grow Rich by Napoleon Hill. It's a terrible title. It's misleading, is a brilliant book about mental development, mental strength, goal setting, you know, enjoying your life, that sort of stuff. It's a really good book. Any Anthony Robbins book I think is brilliant. Some of them are a bit cheesy, but.
02:20:13:07 - 02:20:14:07
Speaker 3
The same with Zig Ziglar.
02:20:14:13 - 02:20:16:15
Speaker 2
You know, he's total cheese.
02:20:16:16 - 02:20:17:24
Speaker 3
Yeah, he's so cheesy.
02:20:17:24 - 02:20:20:16
Speaker 9
It's good. It's so good.
02:20:20:17 - 02:20:25:19
Speaker 2
Robinson Crusoe. Unbelievably good. Really? Yeah. And I thought.
02:20:25:20 - 02:20:28:05
Speaker 3
Robinson Crusoe, who wrote that? Was an English guy.
02:20:28:07 - 02:20:29:07
Speaker 2
Daniel Defoe.
02:20:29:09 - 02:20:30:11
Speaker 3
Yeah. It's he English.
02:20:30:13 - 02:20:35:24
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's the first published book or something novel or something, but it's.
02:20:36:03 - 02:20:38:01
Speaker 3
What year did that come out?
02:20:38:03 - 02:20:39:04
Speaker 2
I don't know.
02:20:39:05 - 02:20:40:01
Speaker 3
Yeah. Well back.
02:20:40:06 - 02:20:40:11
Speaker 2
Back.
02:20:40:13 - 02:20:43:11
Speaker 3
Yeah. But what other fiction do you like? I think fiction.
02:20:43:13 - 02:20:45:06
Speaker 2
A gentleman in Moscow.
02:20:45:07 - 02:20:45:13
Speaker 3
Is.
02:20:45:13 - 02:20:47:07
Speaker 2
That he's.
02:20:47:07 - 02:20:48:13
Speaker 3
He's a beautiful writer.
02:20:48:13 - 02:20:49:05
Speaker 2
Stunning writer.
02:20:49:07 - 02:20:49:16
Speaker 9
Yeah.
02:20:49:21 - 02:20:51:13
Speaker 3
The way he writes language is.
02:20:51:13 - 02:20:52:16
Speaker 9
Just so.
02:20:52:17 - 02:20:54:00
Speaker 2
I think he's the best living writer.
02:20:54:00 - 02:21:00:17
Speaker 3
I'd agree with that. What's the other one? He's got midnight in Paris. No, no. What's the other one? He's got.
02:21:00:19 - 02:21:02:17
Speaker 2
The one about New York.
02:21:02:19 - 02:21:05:16
Speaker 3
Yeah. There's one. I've got both of them. Yeah. They're, they're really.
02:21:05:16 - 02:21:13:20
Speaker 2
Good genius. Yeah. He's a genius. I love all the classics. I read all the classics.
02:21:13:22 - 02:21:14:00
Speaker 3
Yeah.
02:21:14:00 - 02:21:16:03
Speaker 2
But which you know like War and Peace, all the stuff.
02:21:16:03 - 02:21:18:20
Speaker 3
You did you read. Yeah. Dossier.
02:21:18:22 - 02:21:31:24
Speaker 2
All the dusky. Yeah. Brothers Karamazov or whatever that is. Yeah. Let me. My favorite is probably Count of Monte Cristo. I love the counter.
02:21:32:01 - 02:21:38:11
Speaker 3
A lot of people say that's one of the best books of all time. Absolutely. Is it a big is it a bigger? Yeah, yeah. Did you read Infinite Jest?
02:21:38:13 - 02:21:39:03
Speaker 2
No.
02:21:39:09 - 02:21:49:01
Speaker 3
That's a big old book. It's good though, is it? Yeah, maybe. Like if you ever go back to prison. But. Yeah.
02:21:49:03 - 02:21:52:13
Speaker 2
There are so many books. That was the one of the best things about.
02:21:52:20 - 02:21:54:09
Speaker 3
How often would you just read all day.
02:21:54:09 - 02:22:00:09
Speaker 2
Yeah, I was either reading, writing, exercising, eating, sleeping. That was it.
02:22:00:13 - 02:22:08:05
Speaker 3
It's mad. Mate, you gonna have to run for lunch. I could talk to you for hours. Absolute fucking joy. And I'm so. Yeah. Well done. You've managed to. Turner.
02:22:08:05 - 02:22:08:11
Speaker 2
Oh.
02:22:08:11 - 02:22:09:21
Speaker 3
Thank you. Yeah. And I think a lot of.
02:22:09:21 - 02:22:10:16
Speaker 2
People lucky.
02:22:10:17 - 02:22:12:11
Speaker 3
Yeah. If they want to get mindful for your.
02:22:12:11 - 02:22:16:05
Speaker 2
Business mind for if you. Yeah. I mean, I didn't even talk about my other stuff, but.
02:22:16:07 - 02:22:26:07
Speaker 3
We'll do another one. Why don't we. Yeah, it was great fun. Absolute pleasure mate. Thank you so much. Oh, that was so much fun.
02:22:26:09 - 02:22:27:02
Speaker 2
Was that all right?
02:22:27:03 - 02:22:28:20
Speaker 3
That was great. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
02:22:28:21 - 02:22:29:23
Speaker 2
I never know.
02:22:30:00 - 02:22:32:03
Speaker 3
Oh, no, that was really good. Oh, good. Really good.
02:22:32:05 - 02:22:32:18
Speaker 2
Okay, good.
02:22:32:19 - 02:22:35:02
Speaker 3
It was,
02:22:35:04 - 02:23:03:24