Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Thoughts and ideas on education, culture, psychology, social science and more from our academics, students, alumni and wider community to create lasting and evolving change. Podcasts brought to you by UCL Institute of Education (IOE), the world's leading centre for education and social science research, courses and teaching, and a faculty of University College London (UCL).
More from us: https://ucl.ac.uk/ioe
IOE announcer
You're listening to IOE insights. The UCL Institute of Education podcast at University College London.
Elaine Long
We are programme leaders on the UCL Early Career Teacher programme. Why are we in the Staffroom? We are here because this is where the best professional learning conversations always take place. This is where problems faced by teachers and leaders today can be explored critically, and where meaningful connections between research and practice can be made.
Mark Quinn
Over the course of this series, we will hear the voices of different colleagues as they come into The Staffroom – from ECTs to academics and executive leaders. We will talk about all things education – the challenges and the joys. So why don’t you enjoy a coffee with us, perhaps even grab a biscuit, and sit down for an hour of Staffroom chat.
Welcome to the Staffroom, Katherine Ellis and Jo Moss. You know, Elaine, we wait ages for one academic and then two turn up at the same time in the staff room. There's Doctor Jo Moss from the University of Surrey in the School of Psychology, and our own from UCL, Katherine Ellis in the clinical, educational and health psychology area. So, we're really, really thrilled to have you with us. A little bit privileged, I guess, to have such esteemed company with us in the staff room.
I get to do the honours by bringing you a drink and something to nibble. So what can I get you? Do you want a coffee? Do you want a tea? We've got a whole selection if I look to the back of the cupboard. Jo, what can I get you?
Dr Joanna Moss
I think, I think this time of day for me is definitely a coffee, please.
Mark Quinn
And coffee with or without?
Dr Joanna Moss
With always.
Mark Quinn
Coffee with? And, and do you take a biscuit without some kind, or...
Dr Joanna Moss
Yeah, I think you've always got to have a biscuit off the new biscuit, so a bourbon is would always be my my biscuit of choice.
Mark Quinn
It's one of the popular ones. I don't see it myself, but there we go. That means there's plenty of them. Katherine, how about you? What can I get you to wet your whistle?
Katherine Ellis
So I would say the opposite, I would say, oh, it's too late for a coffee for me, Jo. So I'll give him a cup of tea. And then I always love a chocolate hobnob, you know, decadent is what I say. But then also I saw some Lotus Biscoffs on the side of the kitchen just now. And I just, I always forget about them unless I'm in a coffee shop and they give it for free and forget how good they are. So
Mark Quinn
You can't have those, you can't have those, those, those the head of the head of drama owns those, so he would flip his lid if you went off with those. So I can give him the chocolate hobnobs if you like.
Katherine Ellis
Um...Oh, I see, yeah. That is still a champion of biscuits, so that would be lovely. Thank you so much, Mark.
Mark Quinn
I might have to break the seal of my own packet for you, no problem at all.
Elaine Long
OK, then it's a nice sunny day, Mark. I might have a nice lemonade as well, with a few straws and parasols in.
Mark Quinn
Hey, when did when did this when did this start happening? When you started demanding your own?
Elaine Long
I quite like this new addition and I'm pleased we've established that the ground rules for biscuits, highly important and I share in the love of a classic bourbon. It's so nice to have you in the Staffroom, Jo and Katherine. I wonder if you could introduce yourself for our listeners and tell us
Elaine Long
What brings you the most joy in your role? Jo, perhaps you'd like to go first, and then Katherine.
Dr Joanna Moss
Yeah, so thanks very much for having us here today. It's great to be here. So I'm an Associate Professor at the University of Surrey in the School of Psychology, where I run the neurodevelopmental research lab. And I'm also a Co-Director of the Cerebra Network, which is a collaborative research network across Surrey, University of Birmingham, Aston University and University of Warwick.
So, I think as an academic, our role is very varied and I think there's lots of ways in which we get joy from our work. I think for me, primarily working closely with children and families and being able to partner with charitable organisations in the context of the research that we do. But I think also as a, using my platform as an educator and being able to work with young students that are coming through, psychology students who are going to be the next clinical psychologists, educational psychologists, and kind of training up that next generation in the field.
Elaine Long
Thanks, Jo. Katherine?
Katherine Ellis
Yeah, I think Jo summarised it really well. So, I'm a lecturer at UCL and I've worked with Jo for many, many, many years. So, it's been really nice to keep that collaboration up and I've learned a lot from Jo and previously been part of the network and sort of, yeah, now I'm stepping into my sort of lectureship role, but working very closely together. And I think for me, what I like about being an academic, particularly in this area that we work with, is just the mixture of, I think I'm a bit of a nerd. So, I do actually really like the reading and the writing and the looking at the papers. But I also love the fact that in our work, we get to work with families and charities and in a really collaborative way. So, I feel like I get the best of both worlds in my job.
And I feel like I'm parroting exactly what Jo says, but it's also so nice to work with the students. So, I tend to work much more with master students because I also run a course here at CHP. And one of the things that I love is to bring what we talk about in our research into the curriculum because it's often an area that's really underserved and we often have a lot of very budding students who are really interested in helping young people and their families so it's really good to open that door for them and to see them learn and develop and gain a passion for this area and in education as well.
Elaine Long
And Katherine, tell us a bit more about that area. What is your specialism and what is your research in?
Katherine Ellis
Yes, so it's probably a really good place to start so you can actually find out where our passion comes from. So, Jo and I, we work really closely with families and people with rare genetic syndromes that are associated with an intellectual disability.
So, there's lots of these different genetic syndromes out there, and they often have a lot of variation in terms of what we call behavioural phenotypes. So the sorts of behavioural profiles that they might show compared to someone without that particular genetic syndrome. So we've done a lot of work in autism characteristics for interest, for example. So, we know that lots of these different groups have high levels of autism characteristics, but the way they present is quite different and depends on their particular type of genetic syndrome.
But this also happens, and this is also really important for things like their thinking styles as well, so not just their behaviours, but also you know, their cognitive processing, how they think, certain groups might have stronger sort of visual skills compared to language skills. And we think all of this information is really important to, you know, help families and professionals know how to support these people with genetic syndromes.
Mark Quinn
And Jo, is your work in exactly the same area or do you bring a slightly different angle to this to the same field of the cognitive and behavioural profiles?
Dr Joanna Moss
Yes, as Kat says, we've worked very closely together for many years. So I think we've could have collaboratively expanded the work that we do together really over that time. But yeah, so we're interested in fairly similar areas. One of the things that Cat's been brilliant in bringing to the team is really kind of helping to develop more accessible tools for people with intellectual disability so that we can include people from those populations within our research.
They often get kind of left out and missed out in research and the work that Kat has been doing and using eye tracking technology over the years has really helped us to kind of ensure that we have a much more representation from this population within research.
Mark Quinn
So that would be interesting to hear a little bit more about. So, I mean, Kat, you did say about Down Syndrome being, I guess, a condition that everyone will have heard about, but there'll be, I suppose, there'll be other syndromes that you, or genetic syndromes that you are studying that perhaps our listeners would be less familiar with.
And so, it would be really interesting to hear actually what some of those might be and also what are your methods of getting to understand what their behaviours are.
Katherine Ellis
Yeah, that's a really good question. I often use the example of Down Syndrome because that's just such a good example that most people have come across.
There's a huge range of these different groups with lots of these different behaviours. But I think the thing to really remember with these groups and why we think it's interesting, you know, particularly in the context of education, is often these are quite, you know, they're individually quite rare, but as a group, genetic syndromes are collectively a really, really big group, often with really quite complex and high levels of needs, and, you know, in terms of, you know, we've become very interested recently in how we can support these children within the education setting. And because, you know, there's going to be lots and lots of these different children within schools, but there isn't a lot of information out there to support them.
Elaine Long
I'm sure.
Mark Quinn
Just before I hand over back to you, Elaine, actually about that, just I was just interested a little bit more on how you, what are the research challenges of, you know, understanding these children with the different genetic syndromes?
Katherine Ellis
So I think, Jo, you touched on the about the aspect of accessible, you know, making research accessible. So, I think that's been one of the biggest challenges, you know, not just in rare genetic syndromes, but actually across intellectual disability research more broadly.
A lot of the research methods that we use, perhaps to look at, you know, use autism, but there's been a whole range of research across the cerebral network that Jo is a co-head of in things like sleep, mental health, behaviours that challenge, a whole
you know, executive function, a whole range of different areas of research that people with intellectual disability, including those with genetic syndromes, haven't been included in because the nature of the assessments, they're just not designed for them to be accessible. So, you know, thinking about mental health, for instance, a lot of measures or self-report measures.
And there's a lot of people with intellectual disability who really struggle to communicate in the same ways that we communicate. They might not be verbal at all, but we shouldn't, you know, we shouldn't assume that they don't experience emotional difficulties or mental health difficulties. But so far they've been, you know, really underserved.
So, part of the work that we've been doing is using what is available, so observations. So for example, what particular behavioural characteristics might suggest, you know, taking mental health example, what are the behavioural characteristics that suggest someone might be anxious? You know, it might be fidgeting, but potentially it might be avoiding eye contact. All of these things that we can look out for that doesn't require someone to have to self-report.
You know, I'm very interested in what I call the thinking processes, the cognitive processes. So, some of these tasks can be quite complex. They might need like a lot of instructions or require a lot of memory. And that might not be what we're particularly interested in.
So eye tracking is really good because there's not a particular task that we want them to do, but we can kind of get an insight about how they might process their social world just from what they're looking at on the screen and what information are they paying attention to compared to the information that they're not, you know, how is this different from people without an intellectual disability, from autistic people without an intellectual disability, without them having to remember a lot, without having to, for them to verbally report. And that's given us a much better insight into how, yeah, how do they process the world? How do they think? And that information's going to be really, I always think it's really helpful because it just, for me, it makes me think about, you know, if we have that information about how they're entering the world and how they're processing the world, it helps me put myself in their shoes and see the world from that perspective. And I always think that's just really helpful in terms of understanding how to support someone.
Elaine Long
I think hugely helpful for teachers as well to understand the world from the perspective of their students, particularly students with special educational needs. And I know that you're keen for your research to reach beyond the walls of your university and we'll have teachers listening that are equally keen to know about your research.
And I know you've already put a lot of thought into how you can disseminate your research in accessible ways for teachers. So I wondered if you could tell us about some of the teacher training resources you've already developed to support teachers to learn about this area.
Jo, I wonder if you could start on that one.
Dr Joanna Moss
Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, it's a really kind of central ethos in the research lab that I'm involved in, sorry, but under the wider Cerebra network, which is that we use our research to create resources and information that is helpful for children and families and for the professionals that are working with them.
We spend a lot of time creating those impact resources that are hopefully more accessible to the communities that we're working with. So we've been involved in a number of different resources over the years. We have the find resources
website, which is directed for families, primarily of children with rare genetic syndromes.
And we've also produced a number of explanatory guides, again, that are accessible for families and people within those communities, particularly focused around areas around anxiety, understanding anxiety in these populations, understanding sleep challenges, understanding the overlap between autism characteristics, social communication differences and the different process profiles that we see within these groups.
Then more recently, Kat and I have been working together along with members of the rare syndrome community to co-design a specialist teacher training resource. So this is really focused on helping education practitioners to understand different aspects of the needs of children with rare syndromes who may be in their classroom and to think about the ways in which they might approach that understanding the support needs of those particular individuals, where they might be able to find information, for example, about the specific condition that the child has. You know, as Kat says, there are many, many syndromes that, you know, that present and we can't expect professionals to be experts in every single one, but what we can try and do is to provide a framework that helps professionals, and in this context, education practitioners, to kind of develop an approach that works well when supporting children with genetic syndromes and a way of thinking about it that supports those children in their classrooms.
Elaine Long
And Jo or Katherine, where you've seen really good practise in terms of teachers supporting students with rare syndrome conditions, what sorts of things have they put in place and how they engage with the resources?
Dr Joanna Moss
I think probably the best examples that we see of that are, you know, teachers and who are really keen to learn more about the specific genetic syndrome that a child is showing. They understand the value of that knowledge and how that might help them to identify kind of key areas of need and priorities that they might need to think about. So, you know, it really is sort of amazingly, we often go to family support group conferences and, you know, the teaching support assistants turn up on the weekend and are coming to learn more about the syndrome and to talk to families and to talk to other professionals to try and get some information.
We understand though that often that's not feasible for teachers, but you know, I think I think really it's that awareness that there is a there is information out there and the kind of motivation to find that and use that to support children in the classroom.
Elaine Long
And we'll also make sure we share the links to those resources, because I'm sure our listeners will be keen to look at them and know where they are. So they'll be shared with the podcast.
Dr Joanna Moss
Thank you. And I think our hope is with the teacher training resource that we've been working on is that, you know, it provides a much more accessible route to gaining that knowledge and that information for teachers and education practitioners so that they don't have to then travel around the country on the weekends to go to support groups. But yeah, so we're hopeful that it will, you know, improve that efficiency of knowledge transfer.
Katherine Ellis
Yeah, I think to add to that as well, you know, when thinking about best practise and I think part of that willingness to come and learn, you know, really taps into something else, which is really important, something we talk about the resource, which is working really closely with the families and the individuals as well.
So, one of the big aspects of the resources is really balancing the syndrome-specific characteristics that we know are, you know, more likely to occur in a particular group. I think it's really important to be balanced to say, you know, someone's more likely to show particular characteristics or thinking styles, but it's not always a given, and that's why we say all of these things need to be put in the context of that individual child and working really closely with the family.
So, you know, I think it's important that that best practises are taking a very holistic approach. But I think what we say is when, you know, there is value in looking at information about the syndrome because it might just give you ideas about things that you hadn't thought about before. It might help streamline the sorts of assessments or things to look out for. And there's information out there and we have a resource page where we try to give some extra information as well. So, I really think that example of parents coming to the groups is a really nice example of all of these things, the syndrome specific knowledge, you know, working with the individual child, but also within collaboration with the family. All of these things are really important to us to think about in how best to support these children.
Elaine Long
That's one of the things I really liked about the resources when I looked at them as well. They do provide a really practical framework for teachers with the research as a starting point, but not an end point, and then a practical framework for how they can work collaboratively with families to further their knowledge of the child so they can best teach them. And I think it's, you know, it's obviously important for teachers to have access to accurate research informed resources, but also combined with that practical framework to help them. And I thought that that was really powerful in the way that was put together.
Mark Quinn
Yeah, and it's interesting is that there's the mood music and the words and the rhetoric and the white papers coming from the government right now, seem to be singing the same tune really about the need to understand the individual needs of children, particularly those with special educational needs and disabilities. Obviously, there's a great emphasis in that white paper towards mainstream and teaching children in mainstream with extra support coming to schools promised at some point further down the line. I don't know if there's any parts of the White Paper yourselves which stood out for you that you were either optimistic about or had some queries about. Either of you?
Katherine Ellis
I think it's, I always find it's very difficult to speculate because there can be some nice ideas, but when it actually happens practically, I think we won't know until it's the, you know, we see the results and how it's actually put into practice. I think what I, you know, thinking about the resource and, you know, how we can support.
You mentioned this idea of mainstream schools and, you know, the addition of sort of specialist centres and getting much more training and support for staff. I found quite interesting within the context of the resource. You know, when it first kind of came through, when we were thinking about that sort of three tiered system and the EHCPs only being for the most complex cases, my first thought was, actually, I don't know if it would affect our groups too much because we always argue that they are a group that are characterised by the most complex set of needs. You know, there's often, you know, varying levels of intellectual disability. There's often complex health conditions associated with these groups, a lot of co-occurring conditions that might contribute to complex profiles.
So, I wasn't really sure whether it would change that much, and then I, but then I thought about it and I thought, actually, you know, when we've done a lot of co-production and focus groups within the teacher training resource, and I think, Jo, when you first, you know, came up with the idea and started developing it, I think you were really thinking it was really just going to be special schools, you know, education practitioners from SEND focus schools that would be engaging.
But actually, as we ran more focus groups and did more co-production, there was a real appetite from people from mainstream schools going, this is really important and really helpful because, you know, I have a child with Fragile X syndrome in the classroom or I have a child with Williams syndrome in the classroom. And I've never heard of this particular condition before they've come in and, you know, we've had very limited training or resources and understanding. And so, I think even before any of the changes, I think there has been an appetite for mainstream schools for this sort of work, which was perhaps not what we were we were expecting.
So, I think it's hard to speculate what this will mean for people with genetic syndromes, whether it means more people will go into mainstream or not. But what I think there is a shift and an emphasis on is the need for a whole school approach with supporting, you know, children, all children with additional needs.
That's what kind of came through to me was this idea of actually they're investing in this going to hopefully be investment in training for all teachers and this emphasis, as I said, on a whole school approach. So it's not just going to be the education practitioners who are working directly, but this sort of broader knowledge, and I suppose thinking about that, I suppose this is where the resource might come in and there's hopefully an opportunity to improve practise across the board for a lot of children who are actually in mainstream school settings already.
It tends to be more primary schools, I think, for our groups, and then it does drop off with secondary schools. I don't know how or whether that will shift or not. But hopefully there's an opportunity there for us to provide better support and training for practitioners who often really want to do the best for the children that come into their classroom, they just don't always have the resources or the training to feel like they can best support them. Yeah.
Mark Quinn
And do you, I know this is a very broad brush question and you've been reminding us of the nuances of this while we've been talking, but do you have a view or a preference when it comes to specialist versus mainstream education for some of the children that you study and that you work and whose families you work with?
Katherine Ellis
That's a really difficult question. I was thinking about it earlier and I was thinking about this. And I mean, I've had to look at the literature and from what I can see, that isn't, you know, from the research literature, which is, you know, where we often look to for information. I don't know, you know, we co-produce the resource with an educational psychologist who has a little bit more experience of being on the ground. And it would be really, it's a shame she couldn't make it, but she'd be a really good person to get her thoughts. But from a research position, there isn't a clear answer to that.
In the context of genetic syndromes, there's only ever been research in people with Down syndrome rather than the broader group. And, you know, I think the research often says that they tend to do better in mainstream schools, but I think there's a big question mark about whether that's just because those particular children have less needs and that's why they're in that particular setting.
From what I can see, there's not a clear answer and I imagine that it's going to be so different depending on, you know, the individual, what the nature of their needs are, the family preferences. I think it's a really, really challenging decision and quite an individual decision that doesn't have a clear answer from the research literature.
I mean, Jo, I don't know if you have anything to add to that.
Dr Joanna Moss
No, I mean, I was just going to say, you know, I think, you know, really ultimately it is very much around the individual needs of the child and I think it's really important that children and families have a choice, but that the choices are strong choices. So, you know, the provision in either position needs to be well resourced and, you know, with sufficient expertise and access to training to support that individual. And I think that is possibly a challenge for families currently, that choices are limited.
Mark Quinn
Yeah, sure. It's no choice at all, is it? If, for example, the mainstream setting just isn't equipped and doesn't have the expertise and can't support the child, it's not a choice in the end. It's so strong choice is a good way of putting it, Jo. And also, I think, actually, Katherine, to be fair, yeah, I knew it was an impossible question when I asked it, but actually, if the research evidence isn't strong either way, then that's what we want to hear. That's what we need to hear, isn't it? Rather than saying it shouldn't be driven by some ideology, it should be driven as much as possible by families and their understanding of the needs, and then by whatever the research, as well as we know it, suggests is a better option. But as long as, as you said, Jo, as long as it is a proper option.
Dr Joanna Moss
Yeah, and I think I think we hear so many families who are who are kind of really fighting to get the provision that they feel is appropriate for their for their child. And it's, you know, I think it's really challenging for those families. It's, you know, adds a huge amount of burden and pressure to families who are already under a lot of strain, and I suppose you know, with the new three-tiered approach being offered, I suppose there is a concern, you know, that those who have more complex needs and who will then go on to have access to any EHCP, that that is then becoming even more restricted and is that is that going to help improve support for children broadly, you know, with the addition of training to whole schools and training to teachers specifically, or is it going to just kind of limit the expertise further and the resource further to those children who really need it?
So, I think I think there's some really good ideas and great, as Kat says, you know, some great thoughts and great approaches. It will be interesting to see how, you know, how that translates in reality?
Mark Quinn
Yeah, I think there has been, I mean, obviously, it's always mixed. I think there's been some positive and optimistic reaction to the White Paper, but also some concerns or doubts, obviously, how well financed it all will be, will be one of the issues. And certainly when listening to some of the teacher associations and teacher unions about this, a concern they have is teacher workload. Does this mean it'll be hard to work for teachers to manage all of this? And actually teacher skills, teacher professional learning in this area.
That's really what prompted me to ask you these questions, because of course, this is what you're addressing. You're already in that area. You've done a huge amount of work at the right, you know, in the right ways, as you say, as much as you can, co-constructed with a whole network of academics in this field and with families and educationalists who understand how to, you know, what the needs are and how to make it, how to enact this stuff.
So, I think that I would, you know, teachers might be at least assured that there is support, there is support for when they'll need it. Of course, it'll still be hard work, of course it will. But if it comes, if you know, if this is done coming down the train tracks, there will be support and there will be opportunities for them to learn. And teachers don't mind learning how to do their job better, right?
That's what we think. That's what we find.
Dr Joanna Moss
Absolutely, yeah. We've come across so many really motivated teachers and as you say, it's just it's lack of lack of time, you know, and high workload that's the challenge.
Mark Quinn
Yeah. That's right. It's never a lack of motivation.
Katherine Ellis
It's something that we always want to be really sensitive to and is why, you know, when developing the resource, we try to keep it accessible, short. We know people have a limited amount of time. We are currently trying to get it CPD accredited so that it can, you know, more directly contribute to their professional development.
And so much of it is, you know, when we talk to education practitioners, so much of the issue is not about motivation, but it's just a lack of a lack of training, a lack of resource, a lack of support. And I think, you know, what we're trying to do is plug in a little bit of that gap in any way we can so that we can support teachers and continue to do so over this kind of changing period, which, yeah, all we can, I suppose all we can do is kind of wait and see to see what the actual reality of what it's going to be like. It's always quite hard to tell from, you know, these quite lofty ideals and we'll see how it plays out and we'll try and work out how we can, you know, plug in some of the gap.
And one of the things that's really important to us is that these resources are accessible as well. So that they remain free to whoever needs them at any point and that's something that's really, really close to our hearts because we know, as I said, resources are often restricted.
Elaine Long
I really love the idea of working towards a culture of strong choice as an entitlement for students with and without additional needs and the idea that there shouldn't be any difference in that choice, I think is a compelling vision. You should have written a chapter in the White paper Jo.
But we're not going to give you a white paper. We're going to give you a post-it note. So we're going to be a bit meaner and a bit more challenging. So I'm going to hand you your post-it note first, Jo, and then I'll go to Katherine. So here is your post-it note, Jo. You have a choice. You can write anything you like on this post-it note and you have a choice about where you want to stick the post-it note. So, please, can you direct me as to what you would like me to do with your post-it note?
Dr Joanna Moss
Yeah, this is a bit of a challenging one because there's so many things I think that we would want to share and with so many different people. I think for me, a really central piece of advice is around the importance of collaborating with parents and caregivers and really listening to what they say. They, you know, they are the experts on their child and their child's condition and you know, I think just really important to make sure that there is good communication between education practitioners and parents and caregivers.
And so I think that would be my key point on the post-it note, and so...
I don't know where would be a good place to post that. Maybe in the school reception, the parents and teachers’ kind of come together at that point.
Elaine Long
That's a nice idea, above the door where everyone sees it. Yeah. Katherine, can you direct me as to what you would like me to do with your post-it night?
Katherine Ellis
I think the sort of the concept that pins a lot of these things together for me is about curiosity. So, you know, just staying really, trying to be curious to, you know, not just the child and their different syndromes, but about their individual characteristics, curious about what information is already out there, curious about parent perspective as well, and yeah, that's I would say that's the key thing that really pulls a lot of these things that are important together. And I like the idea of having that at reception as well, because I think, you know, for maybe the staff notice board, but actually I think that's something that's really important for everyone who works in the school to see as they come kind of come in and that's a really good ethos to work towards so that we can all kind of work together to support each other to do the best to support these children.
Mark Quinn
Yeah, well, we just heard that bell ringing in the background and that's the caretaker who's been very concerned about the confetti of post-it notes which are falling all over the reception area that he's going to have to pick up later.
Thank you so much, Jo and Katherine, for coming into the staff room with us this afternoon. It's been really, really great to listen to you. It's actually to be curious when you've been talking and to hear your compassion for and your determination in the field that you're in. And a great example, actually, I think of the collaboration that obviously does exist between academics and different institutions as that.an eye-opener as well and really refreshing.
So thank you. Thanks for coming in.
Dr Joanna Moss
Thanks for having us.
Katherine Ellis
Yeah, thanks so much.
Mark Quinn
Our thanks go to Dr Joanna Moss from the University of Surrey and Katherine Ellis from UCL for sharing their coffee and their tea with us this week in the staffroom. You heard talk about some teaching materials, well you can explore those further if you like by going to findresources.co.uk and findteacherresources.co.uk and we highly recommend that you do.
Elaine Long
Please do get in touch if you would like to be part of the conversation, click on the link at the bottom of The Staffroom web page.
Mark Quinn
And if you've enjoyed this episode, there's more where that came from, search IOE podcast from wherever you get your podcasts to find episodes of The Staffroom, as well as more podcasts from the IOE.
Elaine Long
A quick favour before you go, if you're listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, we'd really appreciate it if you could give the IOE podcast a rating. Five stars would be nice if you're enjoying the show and that will help us to reach more people who are interested in hearing what The Staffroom is all about.
IOE announcer
Thanks for listening. Search IOE Insights for more podcasts from the IOE.