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This episode is about Nope (2022), directed and written by Jordan Peele, starring Daniel Kaluuya, Keke Palmer, Stephen Yuen, and Brandon Perea - and also Keith "the Daddiest" David.
A podcast that holds horror to standards horror never agreed to. Hosts Jeremy Whitley, Ben Kahn, Emily Martin and guests watch, read, listen to, and check out movies, tv shows, comics, books, art and anything else from the horror genre and discuss it through a progressive lens. We'll talk feminism in horror, LGBTQ+ issues and representation in horror, racial and social justice in horror, disability and mental health/illness in horror, and the work of female and POC directors, writers, and creators in horror.
We're the podcast horror never agreed to take part in.
Jeremy: good evening and welcome to
Progressively Horrified, the podcast
where wheeled hoard progressive
standards it never agreed to.
Tonight we're talking about our third
film by director Jordan Peele, part
horror movie, part Summer Blockbuster.
It's called, Nope.
I'm your host Jeremy Whitley.
And with me tonight I have a
panel of chil and cino bytes.
First, they're here to challenge a
sexy werewolf, sexy, vampire binary.
My co-host Ben Kahn.
Ben, how are you tonight?
Ben: Going into this movie, I really
did not expect to think to myself, huh.
Getting real tremors vibes from this.
Jeremy: Do love me some tremors?
Ben: by the way, we absolutely have
to fucking do tremors at some point.
Jeremy: And the cinnamon
roll of Cino bytes.
Our co-host, Emily Martin,
how are you tonight, Emily?
Emily: feeling every emotion.
I mean, I think this movie really sets
the tone by the emotional whiplash I
was just like, okay, make sure that
my cross belt is buckled, my hands
and arms are inside the vehicle.
Let's go.
So this was a ride.
Jeremy: Yep.
And uh, our guest tonight.
First educator and filmmaker.
Jay Joseph.
Jay, how are you tonight?
Jay: I'm good.
It's very good to be back.
I too, I'm excited to
talk about this film.
Uh, There, I don't think short appeals
actually ever made a film that I disliked.
I'm immuno apologist for us, so
Ben: Oh US is great.
The the man does not miss, he's
three for three in my book,
Jeremy: yeah, he's, he's great.
pretty much all the stuff.
He's, all the movies he is
written I'm a fan of, so,
Ben: including keanu,
Jeremy: Yes.
Ben: the one where he's trying
to rescue a kitten named Keanu.
Emily: I haven't seen that unless,
Ben: It's very underappreciated.
Jeremy: it's, it's him and uh, Keegan
Ben: Keegan Michael key.
the half brother of Dwayne McDuffy.
That is a true fact.
Jeremy: True Facts!
And our other guest tonight,
our good friend and English
educator, Emmanuel Lipscomb.
Emmanuel.
Welcome back.
Emmanuel: Thanks.
I'm excited to be doing three for
three for Jordan Peel movies, and
I'm super stoked for pieces of
media where they say the title.
So
Emily: So
Ben: they say it so well in this movie,
like when OJ gets back in the truck
and like, that's my favorite, Nope.
Of the movie.
Emily: Yeah.
And it's not tongue in cheek
when they say the title, like,
because it, it feels very natural.
Ben: They say it when either
viewer am having that same reaction
of just like, Nope, I'm outta
Emmanuel: yeah, it is almost a wink at the
Emily: Exactly, exactly.
Even when they're not saying
it in the movie, I'm saying it,
Ben: is wild that I think like the truly
creepiest scene of the movie is the fake
out with the kids dressed as the aliens.
Like when the second one comes outta the
shadows, then like, and just is like,
Emmanuel: No, it was super scary.
Ben: yeah.
I'm
Jeremy: Yeah.
Ben: That was really, really
creepy for a fake out scare scene.
Emily: yeah.
I have so many things I wanna
say about that, but we should
get into it because watch Chef's
Jeremy: Yeah.
So, uh, I'm, I decided to do the recap
on this one tonight, which is, boy, it's
a, it's a hard one to recap briefly.
So I'm gonna hit as many
points as I can without uh,
boring everybody to death here.
Uh, It is directed by Jordan Peele.
It is written by Jordan Peele.
It's Stars Daniel Klu, Kiki Palmer,
Brandon per Michael Wincott,
Steven Yen, and Keith David.
It is a monkey pop production, which feels
a especially sinister this time around.
Emily: Yes,
Ben: Right.
Jeremy: We start off with nah, whom
chapter three verse six, I will
cast abominable filth upon you, make
you vile, and make you a spectacle.
This movie's gonna be
a lot about spectacle.
We open on a chimp stalking a
bloody television stage uh,
where he has killed some people.
Uh, A loose shoe from a woman stands
straight up in the middle of the stage.
He taps her to try and get her to
get up or make sure she's dead.
It's unclear.
Then he barrels the camera and we're
somewhere to completely different.
We moved to Otis Jr.
Who goes by oj.
Played by Daniel Kalu as he feeds
and runs the horses on his ranch.
OJ is soft spoken reserves kind and
really in touch with the animals.
He's working with his dad, Otis Sr.
Who's played by Keith.
David.
But don't get too attached.
Random objects begin falling from the sky.
And Otis Sr.
Falls off of his horse bleeding profusely.
OJ tries to get him to the hospital,
but he bleeds out on the way the doctors
find a nickel lodged in his head, having
apparently fallen from the plane overhead.
Which uh, OJ then keeps in, in an
evidence bag, which is real rough.
Now we cut to OJ sometime
later on a movie set.
He's a horse wrangler but really
bad at the interpersonal interaction
part of working on a, a movie set.
He utters, he feels out of place and he
can't give the presentation and is upset
that people aren't listening to him.
Enter Emerald.
Kiki Palmer, his younger sister Emerald,
is talkative, excitable, generally
unde, dependable and very, very gay.
Ben: She real gay.
It's
Jeremy: she gives an engaging presentation
in which she . She also plugs all of
her side hustles before heading to the
craft services table and leaving uh,
OJ again to deal with all the people.
Emily: She is just enjoyable.
Ben: She is a vape pulling.
Big pants, small shirt, wearing
mega lesbian in this movie,
and it is great and delightful.
Jeremy: Yeah.
Just, just watching these two together as
siblings is fantastic because they have
such like, clearly opposing styles of
everything and like you can just imagine.
What their lives with each other have
been like, uh, when you see them together.
Emily: What I love is that Otis Jr.
Is very good with animals,
but not good with people.
And em is very good with herself.
Emmanuel: Right!
Emily: But not good with people.
Ben: Also, you keep describing,
you keep using all these great
adjectives to describe oj.
But I feel like we can just
sum it up with, OJ is very
autism coded in this movie.
Emmanuel: Yeah.
I couldn't read it if it was
that, or grief or you know, a
mix of the two, but absolutely.
Ben: Like I, I think he's
definitely meant to be on the
autism spectrum, is definitely
how I interpreted his character.
Emily: yeah.
As somebody who has, is an animal person,
like I've known quite a few animal people.
We have a lot of horse ranches up
here and there's a lot of people
who are just very, very, Not people.
People, they don't know what to say.
Jeremy: He hits an interesting cross
section of person who is awkward
with people and possibly autistic
and cowboys, so doesn't really
have to talk to people very much.
Like, you know, he's, he's a guy
who is out there on the farm with
the animals, and that's where he's
comfortable and people annoy him.
Ben: OJ I think is a great
character, great protagonist.
And I can see why Kiki Palmer maybe got
a little more of the attention coming
outta this movie be because like,
they're both absolutely incredible.
But I think it's
emerald's, a flashier role.
But I think Daniel Klu had, OJ is honestly
maybe even like the, a deeper role.
And I, I just think the whole
cast, like especially Kalu and
Palmer, just do incredible work.
Jeremy: Yeah, I, I think having seen
other Daniel Kalu performances really
helps with appreciating just how much,
like he's doing a part here that.
This is not, he's not just a quiet guy.
Ben: This is the man who won an Oscar
for playing Fred fucking Hampton.
Jeremy: Yeah.
You hadn't seen him in
a bunch of other movies.
You might think, oh, this is
just like, he's just a quiet guy.
Anyway.
This is just how he is.
Um, But like, no, even, even him
at award ceremonies is on like
a whole different amp level than
like what this character is.
So yeah, the the people
don't pay attention to him.
The horse box and the crew uh, freaks
out and they get fired on the spot.
Uh, This is a huge deal for
oj, but Emerald is really
just onto the next thing.
Uh, She just needs a
ride back to the house.
On the way they make a, a stop
to sell off one of their horses.
To Ricky Park, the owner
of Jupiter's claim.
He goes by ju, which sounds like,
uh, some sort of slur or something,
Emmanuel: Okay.
I wasn't the only one.
Good
Ben: Yep.
Emmanuel: was like, this
makes me feel uncomfortable.
Jeremy: which really in short for Jupiter,
which is not his name either, it's the
name of a character he played in a movie
when he or in a TV show when he was a kid.
Ben: I mean, Ricky's whole deal is, I
have absolutely no idea how to process the
incredible amounts of trauma in my life.
Emily: Yeah, he's a really interesting
character and I wanna talk about
him as well because his story- Yeah,
his story is so intense and uh, you
know, does anyone here know about
the, the thing that that's based on?
Emmanuel: Oh.
Ben: I don't, no.
Emily: Okay,
Jeremy: save that for for later in
that, uh, this part is of course
played by uh, Steven Yuen, who is
as always
Ben: Also great.
Great cast.
Great fucking cast.
Jeremy: yeah, when you're, when
you're third or fourth build to
Stephen Yen, you've made a good movie.
Jupiter's claim is a wild west
themed park uh, where Jupe and his
family dish out old timey nost.
Juke is buying up horses one by one from
the ranch, and now making an offer to
buy the whole ranch from OJ Emerald.
Meanwhile, is walking around the whole
office and being extra about everything.
The place is filled with
stuff from his career.
She's picking up every souvenir that
he has, including the picture from
Gordy's Home, the TV show he did uh,
that we saw a clip of at the beginning.
Now we know what it was, where a
monkey that lived with a suburban
family beat the shit out of the
people that were working on the thing.
Um, Jupe shows her the Secret Room where
she, where he has all this memorabilia
from the event he saw that he was present
for uh, where Gordy, this trained eighth
that was on the show freaked out, turned
on the actors and beat them to death.
We'll see more of this later, but right
now he talks about it by talking about
a sketch they did about it on Saturday
Night Live, where um, Chris Katan played
the monkey that was murdering people.
Ben: I was so hoping we were getting
a Chris Katan cameo after that.
Emmanuel: Absolutely
Emily: I dunno if I was,
that would be a different direction.
Ben: Imagine if like, oh man,
imagine if it turns out like
it's Chris Katan in the U F O.
Jeremy: And he is, instead of talking
about the Yvette and he is talking about
how good the Saturday Night Live sketch
about this horrible thing that happened
to him was, which tells you I think a
lot about Jupe and where his head is at
because he is talking about it like it
happened to somebody completely different.
Ben: My jaw was dropped,
that entire monologue.
Just how psychologically fucked it was and
how great Stephen Yen was delivering it.
Jeremy: Yeah.
The siblings head back to the ranch where
they uh, break into Dad's liquor cabinet
and Hobby Weed and let loose for a while.
Uh, We learned this story about Jean
Jacket, the horse that was supposed
to be Emeril's, but instead dad put it
to work because he got a gig running
horses for the Scorpion King movie.
So instead of her getting this horse
that she was supposed to get, she
got to watch OJ and Otis train it.
And OJ got to be part of being on set on
the Scorpion King presumably met the Rock.
They don't mention that, even though
the Scorpion King ended up using camels
in the eventual film Their night is
disrupted when uh, Emerald notices ghost
one of their horses is out in the arena.
OJ goes to see what Ghost is up to,
and Ghost makes a weird ass noise and
jets off through the valley jumping
the fence, completely running towards
downhill where Jupiter's claim is.
he gets in the, of the, uh, golf cart
to go see what the deal is with this,
but uh, cannot find ghost, and there are
weird, like very localized blackouts that
even take out his his phone and stuff.
There's the sound of a strange
presentation going on down at
uh, Jupiter's claim and OJ sees
something he can't explain that
looks like a flying saucer that goes
moving in and out between clouds.
He then goes back and tells Emerald
who comes up with an idea of capturing
this thing on camera to get rich and
famous and possibly meeting Oprah
, which is an idea oj uh, presents
because he can't figure out who else
they would, you know, be going to
talk to Oprah's the, the HAI of Fame.
Ben: That term though, that they use
in the movie, Joe, just the Oprah shot.
Jeremy: yeah, you gotta
get that Oprah shot.
Ben: Like I, I want that to
become a real film term now.
Emily: Film is the word
that you're choosing.
Ben: Yes,
Emily: Okay?
Ben: I want more cinematographers,
putting themselves into potentially
fatal situations to specifically capture
what they feel is an Oprah shot, a
shot worthy of getting you on Oprah.
Jeremy: can give on Oprah
a show that does not exist.
Ben: It's, it's the big one.
it's Christopher Nolan making
a real nuclear weapon for a
fucking Oppenheimer biopic.
Jeremy: So uh, in order to get Oprah
to see their video, they proceed to
Fry's Electronics, where they meet the
depressed and somewhat amazing U f o
obsessed angel played by Brandon Perrea.
He's an unhelpful and unfriendly uh,
stalker and electronics guy until he gets
a whiff that there's U f O intrigue and
suddenly becomes their new best friend.
He helps them install the multiple
cameras Uh, we also hear about his
ex-girlfriend who just dumped him.
Rebecca Diaz, who got a pilot at
the cws or dumped him and took off.
She was really hot though.
Promise.
Ben: I do have a question
for everyone though.
At what point did it sink?
That Angel wasn't just a support character
at Fries and was going to be sticking
around for the rest of the movie because
that, that was one of the bigger twists
that this movie presented for me.
Jeremy: I think the, the moment that
he delivers the, the bit about his
girlfriend getting a pilot at the
CW and dumping him, I was like, oh,
this character's got a backstory.
He's
Emily: oh yeah.
And when he was like unloading the van and
screaming, just randomly, I'm like, okay,
Jeremy: He screams out loud,
which freaks out the horses.
And, and OJ and his fashion was
like, yo, man, don't do that.
why you do that?
Don't do that.
Meanwhile Emerald steals a decoy
training horse covered in pent flags
from Jupiter's claim and drives it up.
Jupe shows up slightly later, is unclear
whether he knows that she stole the
horse or is just there to invite them
to his family's show at the claim.
And notices that there's a
horse that looks a lot like his.
Emerald pulls one of my favorite moves
in this, which is here's him about to ask
where they got the horse, and immediately
cuts him off to ask where he got his,
which makes it possible for
him to then quiz her about it.
Emily: Such good delivery.
This whole scene is so good.
Emmanuel: The double thumbs
up just kills me where he is.
Just like, I have no idea what
else to do in this situation.
I'm just gonna do a
thumbs up from a distance.
Emily: the fact that they're
yelling at each other over like
half a kilometer of of land,
Ben: That scene was absolutely delightful.
Jeremy: Yeah.
It's this, this cast is small but mighty.
So that night there are uh, weird lights
on in the staples after OJ has shut
them down uh, he goes in to shut them
off and then they turn back on again.
He finds himself being stalked by
strange aliens, making weird noises.
He's trying to record them on his
phone as he backs away until they
start popping out of other directions.
And one of them shows up behind him
and he clocks the thing across the
head just out of reflex knock knocking
its head off, discovering that it
is in fact one of Duke's kids who
is there to claim vengeance for them
stealing their their, their fig horse
Ben: I, I should jump in to say
he knocks the alien mask off.
He did not punch this child so
hard that his whole head came off
Emmanuel: That's cause he
held back a little bit.
Ben: Yes no, I'm not saying Daniel
Kalia doesn't have the strength to
knock off a child, to decapitate a
child with a single punch, just that
he did not do so in this, in, in this.
Emily: Yeah.
there's there's some, yeah.
Yeah, I also have horse
information regarding punching,
but we'll get to that later.
Jeremy: God.
Ben: horse
Emmanuel: What does that mean?
Jeremy: Horses love
Ben: you're gonna have
to explain this now.
Emily: okay.
Jeremy: boxing, man.
Emily: Actually a really
great, I mean, horses, okay.
Horses are sturdy animals and
I've known horse trainers.
and
Jeremy: Hold on, Hold on,
Welcome to Emily's Horse Facts.
Emily: okay, it's my
Ben: Back number one,
horses are sturdy as fuck.
Emily: Yeah.
Horses are sturdy as fuck.
I think that's sort of, we
take that as red, right?
And sometimes it, like you, okay, a
dog does something bad, you yell at it.
A cat does something bad, you spray it.
Horses do not understand
this kind of subtlety.
So I have seen, and this is what I've
heard from horse trainers, this is
not a practice that I, that I know
is for sure or that I condone, but
apparently, like say your horse is, is
chewing on a bucket that's bad for it.
I have seen horse trainers punch a horse
in the face to keep it from doing stuff.
Emmanuel: I can't be right.
Emily: This is, these are, you
know, small amount of people, but
like, in order to like get a horse's
attention, I mean, okay, you saw a
ghost in the beginning of the movie
who had like a half of a key like stab
Emmanuel: And its flank.
Emily: in its flank.
Yeah.
And it was just like
Ben: Was that what it was?
I thought that was a wedding ring.
It had in it.
Emily: I think it was a key with a key.
Emmanuel: Yeah.
Emily: did it.
I like just halfway buried into its
flank and the horse was like, boo.
you know, this is why people used to
use
Spurs.
Ben: I, I feel like if we're gonna
show like just the main character
punching a horse in the face, like
on camera, that needs to be like
Bill Bird, the horse trainer movie,
Jeremy: I
was picturing him being
played by Dave Batista.
That's all I like was picturing
Dave Batista punching horses.
Emily: I've seen, I, I've actually
seen some like, like kung fu movies,
like historical kung fu movies with
not literal, but you know, c g i horse
punching, but that's beside the point.
Emmanuel: CGI horse punching is like
that phrase has activated someone.
There's no way
Emily: I'm so sorry those of you
who have been activated, I apologize
Ben: Now my question is, do you
see GI the horse or do you see
GI the Fist and use a real horse?
Emily: you cgi, the horse because you
don't want whoever's throwing that punch.
You know, it's a lot easier to, to, well,
I don't know if it's easier, but it's a
lot better to c g I A horse reaction to
make it convincing than CGI I a punch
Emmanuel: This is just
cuz no one can draw hands.
No one can draw hands.
So you see G,
Emily: hands, even computers.
That's what we need to do.
We need to give Theis all the hands
and then it'll, they'll explode.
Ben: So, there is actually, I think,
a lot to say about CGI animals in this
movie, but we'll get after the recap.
Emily: Yeah.
So just to put a little cap on my horse.
Facts don't punch a horse.
I've seen some trainers punch
horses, but I'm really glad OJ didn't
punch a horse cuz it's not a good
look for a sympathetic character.
Jeremy: you do put calves on your horses.
Ben: Yeah, there's some, I
reremember, I, I feel like that's
the culinary of like, save the cat.
Like save the cat, number one.
Number two, don't punch
horses in the face.
Emily: don't punch horses in
the face as far as I know.
Jeremy: All right.
And this is where Alicia will
insert the, the more you know,
music
? Emily: Yeah.
Ben: So I guess our moralists
don't punch horses unless you
gotta, in which case do, I mean you
Emily: the,
'
Ben: em chew on the wrong bucket, right?
Jeremy: it's the villain bad horse.
Ben: that what we're coming down?
Are we pro or
Emily: it's,
Ben: horse punching?
I don't know our stance
Emily: am, I personally am anti horse
punching cuz I'm really not into
punching anything that isn't human,
Ben: mean, that's what I
would was started with.
But then I started learning about horse
Jeremy: are there pro horse punchers?
No.
Nevermind.
We
Emily: Cuz I've seen
Emmanuel: Trainers are professionals,
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah.
so if
Jeremy: Yeah,
Emily: horses, sure.
Ben: But you should not be,
you, the listener should not
be an amateur horse puncher,
Emmanuel: A layman
should not punch a horse
Ben: Yes.
Okay.
That's a, I feel like
that's a good stance.
That's a, I can support that.
Emily: but I need to
bring this back to the
Jeremy: Okay, you guys, we
gotta let Emily finish whatever
it is that she wants to say.
Emily: OJ could have easily, with
the amount of force that his needs
to wrangle horses, punching aside, he
certainly did have enough experience and
strength to punch a kid's head off or
at least punch a kid's head severely.
But he didn't.
And I think that that's
important for his character.
The end.
Emmanuel: I didn't realize
that was the connection.
Jeremy: This was a
Ben: we
never see OJ, not wearing a big ass
hoodie, but I'm very confident Daniel
Colier is like nothing but a absolute
wall of muscles under that hoodie,
Emily: He wears a hat as well.
Jeremy: Okay.
Meanwhile, Angel is
watching their camera feed.
Uh, When a praying mantis climbs in,
in front of one of the cameras, he
calls Emerald to tell her because
the other camera has gone down.
The thing is here, Clover
is freaking out in the barn.
When OJ turns around, the decoy
horse is gone, leaving only a trail
of flags dangling from the clouds.
Uh, then it takes the real horse sucking
it up off the ground and into the round
opening in the middle of this disk.
This saucer, if you will.
So, , OJ has a dream.
Of his father telling him that
ghost is territorial and some
animals just aren't fit to be
trained, something he's remembering.
Meanwhile, Emerald calls one
of the more preposterously named
characters I've ever seen in a movie.
He has played by Michael Wincott.
Emily: WinCo.
Jeremy: his name is Antlers Holst.
Ben: Anytime Michael Wincott
shows up in a live action movie,
my first reaction every time he
speaks is almost like, no, stop it.
You're not a real person.
Emily: I am so happy
to see Michael Wincott.
I'm so happy to see him in this movie.
I.
See him very often we used to see
him in the nineties, like every other
fucking film, and at first I thought
it was uh, Lance Hendrickson, cuz
they didn't really show his face.
But yeah, Michael Wincott just as
good as far as I'm concerned and, you
Jeremy: Michael Wincott has a voice
like uh, creaky basement door.
Emmanuel: In my notes I have,
he sounds like sling blade, like
Emily: yeah.
Jeremy: yeah, he is a cinematographer
uh, that they met on their last
job, the one where they got fired.
He's notorious for
getting the perfect shots.
he discounts everything emerald as.
Uh, And hangs up on her.
Angel shows up to show them something.
He's been watching all the film from
their cameras, and there's one low
cloud that hasn't moved all day.
It's just sitting up there
in the same spot, waiting as
all the other clouds go by.
They determine that this must be
where this creature is hanging out,
just waiting and hunting up there.
But now it's time for Jupe
to launch his new show.
But he's reliving his one big bad memory.
We see back on the set of Gordy's home.
We see Gordy losing it when
some uh, balloons get up in
the lights and start popping.
Gordy murders the other actors.
He kills the mom and dad
hard and injures the sister.
Finally he turns and looks at Jupe,
who is hiding under the table uh,
approaches him and offers him a fist
bump, which Jupe is about to return
when the monkey's brains are blown
out onto him in his face, basically.
It's not great, it's not a great
memory, but Jupe seems to have
taken the wrong thing from this,
which we'll we'll talk about later.
Uh, Jupe is presenting the star lasso
experience, He is attempting to feed
lucky to the thing in the clouds in order
to lure it out and show it off to people.
Uh, Lucky ain't about that life and
it turns out neither is this thing.
Lucky's not leaving the the
box and this thing is hungry.
So it eats Jupe, it eats his family,
and it eats the whole crowd that's
there to see it, including the girl
that played his sister on the show
that was already horribly mangled
by the monkey in the first place.
OJ then arrives with the intention
of buying Lucky back or trying to
find some sort of way to buy Lucky
back uh, dust in time to see the
saucer moving away between clouds.
It comes back for him.
He runs under the stands and gets away,
but gets knocked out in the process.
When he comes to, he finds lucky
just standing around waiting for him.
He loads lucky into the
trailer and heads home.
Angel is just leaving their house
when his car battery goes suddenly
dead and it starts raining.
He runs back into the house just
as the creature starts pouring out
water, blood and all sorts of random
objects that it's picked up from
these people that it just ate coating
the house and the yard in blood.
OG arrives in the midst of all this.
His own car battery dies in the drive
and the decoy horse gets slammed from the
sky back into the windshield of his car.
By the creature.
He remembers his dad telling him
that you don't look in at the eyes of
animals that are angry and territorial.
You defer to them.
So he keeps his head down and
the thing leaves him alone.
He's able to get Emerald and Angel
to Angel's van just in time for
the power to come back onto the
van and for them to run away.
They then decide to post up at
a seafood restaurant and have a
little bit of P T S D, chill time.
And they talk, about fish
sandwiches being good.
OJ wants to share what he is kind
of figured out about this thing,
that it isn't a spacecraft, that
it's a wild animal, and if they
approach it right, they can predict
its movements and lure it out.
Takes a while to get the other guys
on board with hearing any of this.
But this is when Emerald gets a call from
good old Antlers host who has seen the
reports of everybody disappearing from
Jupiter's claim on the news and knows
that she in fact, wasn't full of shit
and there is something up there uh, that
he only he can get the perfect shot of.
so he is in, he wants to film it.
Emily: For recap purposes, I think there's
a really important point in this exchange,
this initial exchange with Antlers, Holst,
and Emerald, where Antlers Holst remembers
her from the set and so he, on the phone
with her, he brings that up and he says,
you know, you're, you're pursuing this
dream to be in the spotlight, essentially.
And he says to her, that dream is the
kind of dream that you never wake up
from, which I think is a really important
hook in terms of like this entire story.
And, and what it's about.
Especially what the spectacle element.
But carry on, please.
Jeremy: So, they've got a crew
together now, the four of them
are going to figure this out.
They named the creature jean
jacket and put together a
plan to capture him on film.
Antlers brings a non-electric
crank camera to capture the thing.
They put blinders, unlucky so
that it, it can't look up, it
can't intimidate the creature.
Challenge the creature they set up
electronic, wavy armed men all over the
field to track the creature's movement.
So when the creature gets near them, the
fans stop blowing, they go down so they
can see where the creature is without
seeing the creature as it's above them.
Antlers gives a very dramatic
reading of Purple People Eater
Emily: Good.
Jeremy: is one of those things
that the first time I watched
the movie I was like, wow.
And then the second time I watched
the movie, I was like, wow,
Ben: implying that Michael win,
God has ever given a non incredibly
dramatic line reading in his life.
Emily: Right?
Ben: Also, when he shows up with
like the camera, with like the crank
camera, the high five that OJ and
Emerald do is adorable and my favorite
moment between them and the whole.
Emily: Oh yeah.
You really see their like
true connection after
Emmanuel: when I only ever see
like basketball players do that.
Like, and so it's such like a, like
you said, it's like indicative of
how close they are actually like.
Jeremy: Yeah, that, that like
rapid Fire three, high five thing.
Yeah, it's great she's, like I told
you, he'd bring a non electric camera.
Very excited about this.
So they set the whole thing up
where OJ is gonna be the lure
to bring the creature out.
Well, Emerald monitor stuff from the barn
and radio's back and forth with them.
In the barn antlers and angel are
filming the thing from under a
camouflaged harp on the hillside.
Everything is going to plan until uh,
paparazzi with a mirror ball helmet
shows up on a motorcycle and decides
to investigate the valley for himself.
As soon as he hits the dead zone where the
creature is killing all the electricity,
his bike dies suddenly and throws him
off of it injuring him probably horribly.
We never see the extent of his injuries.
OJ does ride out and try to save
the guy he is wearing, you know,
reflective stuff everywhere, which
means it's not gonna go well for him.
Just like it freaked out the
horse when it saw its reflection.
This guy won't listen to instruction
though, and OJ has to bail.
He's put fake eyes on the hood of
his hoodie, so he throws the hood
up as he's riding away and it looks
like he's staring at the creature.
So the creature follows him allowing
him to get the, the creature to
the, the zone where they're, they're
filming which is an incredible plan.
And when the creature gets too close,
he throws out a line of the tiny flags
cuz they know he hates that the creature
hates that shit now cuz he was all messed
up by that before made him throw up fake
and real people or fake and real horses.
They get a decent shot of
it, but host isn't satisfied.
it's about to be the magic hour.
So without consulting with
anybody else, he wanders out
and looks up at the creature and
starts filming it from the open.
It goes straight for him.
It sucks him in, and he
films the whole thing.
If he dies and gets, he gets
sucked into the creature.
He got the perfect shot and
nobody's ever gonna see it.
And nearly gets Angel too, at
the point that it starts sucking
up the tarp and everything.
He lands near a, a deflated
tube man who has eyes that are
looking straight up at the thing.
So he has unfortunate luck once
more and is about pulled up.
He just happens to be tangled up in enough
barbed wire that once this thing gets him
in, it does not want anything to do with
him and spits him out onto the hillside.
It turns to emerald.
It tries to suck her up and gets a good
chunk of the barn with her and ends
up throwing her across the yard as she
just barely escapes getting sucked in.
But she's out in the open now.
This is the point where the
creature starts morphing and like
changing its size and shape, which
is absolutely wild in this film.
Emily: So good.
Ben: Oh yeah,
Jeremy: I saw this for the first time
in theaters and like, they don't explain
what the hell is going on at any point
with this, but it is very clearly.
Trying to intimidate people and, you know,
straight up changing modes at this point.
Ben: biblically lovecraftian
and Lovecraftian in the
unknown monster way.
Not lovecraftian in the super racist way.
Jeremy: Yeah.
So, uh, the thing is right on top of
Emerald but OJ decides to, he tells
Emerald to make for the motorcycle
and he lures the thing away by
staring it straight down with Lucky.
Uh, They're slowly backing away and the
creature is closing in on them and gives
her just enough room to get the motorcycle
started and she gets out of there.
We do not know what happens with OJ from
this point uh, because we follow Emerald
before any of that stuff resolves.
Emerald gets to the motorcycle and
rides it down to Jupiter's claim.
When she comes up with a plan, she
untethered the giant juke shaped
balloon uh, that's in the middle
of the place and sends its skyward.
I did fail to mention right here that
this is where Sheira slides into the
uh, the place with the motorcycle.
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: yeah, the, the juke
balloon goes floating into space
and the creature attacks it.
She gets a picture of it with the coin
operated camera that's in the well
that we've seen earlier in the movie.
As the creature attempts to eat
the giant balloon, both it and the
creature explode to smithereens.
And uh, people start, you know,
rushing in, having responded to all
the stuff that's going down here.
finally emerald uh, having the picture
and everything turns and sees OJ and
lucky seemingly still alive through the
uprights that say uh, the out yonder
Uh, so they're still alive in one
piece, or are they, because it's a
really iconic shot of them through
this thing, and a lot of people have
taken it to mean that OJ is dead.
But it is unclear in the movie, and
Jordan Peele literally refuses to
tell people what his intention was.
Uh, the
Emily: his
Ben: I understand the ambiguity,
but my attitude is kind of, if you
don't see a character die, but you
do see them show up still alive,
then maybe they didn't die then.
Emmanuel: I'm with Ben.
If they didn't, if you didn't
see it happen, it didn't happen.
and sometimes even if you see
it happen, it didn't happen.
Emily: True.
And especially with the,
with the death of Keith.
David at the beginning.
I mean, that was pretty like your face.
Yeah.
Jeremy: spray all over the place?
Emily: And then the, the shot of him dead
on the table with the coin in his face.
Emmanuel: Well, and the
other victims, right?
Like we see inside of the creature.
We don't just see, no, you're gone.
Like,
Jeremy: Well, hopefully he wasn't
inside of the creature when the
creature exploded, because then
he is still dead somewhere.
Ben: I mean by far, and again, this is
another reason why I don't think that he
was, I, I really don't think why OJ was
eaten is we can, and this is one of the
most terrifying parts of Jean jacket.
The victim's screams are
still very audible from
Emmanuel: we talk about that?
Ben: they're being digested,
Emmanuel: So what I wondered while
actually is, and maybe I'm a dummy,
is this, are we hearing the screams
of the victims or is it like an
annihilation situation where like
this is an noise that the creature is
making, having consumed these people?
Because we don't know much
about how the creature and so
Ben: I think it's more of
a sarla slow digestion.
We are hearing their screams cuz
especially with the big blood rain
scene, it's like, there's lots and
lots of screaming and then Crunch,
crunch, crunch, crunch, crunch,
blood rain.
Emily: Yeah.
There's a moment that they show after
they, the thing consumes all of the
people at this star lasso experience.
There's a moment where
the screens abruptly stop,
which is,
Jeremy: And that's when
it starts raining meat.
Emily: yeah.
Where they, it abruptly stop.
Like, and you sort of, there's
a very soft pop as to say that
they've all been kind of flattened.
But I mean, the fact that they
show these people like inside this
thing and it's still so uncanny.
This movie is so good.
At just the wonder element and the
terror, like when I first saw the movies
Close Encounters of the Third Kind, when
I was little, it was terrifying to me.
And I know it ha it ended with
this like, beautiful wonder of
like the spaceship coming down.
And it still really did capitalize on
not being able to see the whole thing.
But the, resolution of that film was
that ultimately the, the aliens were
knowable and somewhat benevolent.
Jeremy: They're Lucas aliens.
Emily: Yeah, the George Lucas Aliens,
you know, and you know, this is
a time when I didn't understand
how movies are made so much.
I mean, I knew it was a movie, but
it was still difficult to get some
of that imagery out of my head.
And this movie made me feel the
way that I, it was so, it was
so engrossing and so terrifying.
It almost like seemed to unlock repressed
memories of nightmares, hopefully
just nightmares of when I was a child.
And I like would have these
nightmares about shit in the sky.
And the way that the beast of Jean jacket
was so quiet and you had this incredible
landscape of this surreal California
like upland desert and just miles and
miles of sky and the moon and everything.
And it was not I don't feel like it
was over overwrought in that way.
I mean, it was just surreal enough.
And I felt like, I felt that sense of
wonder, and I felt that the end terror
of seeing something that was unknowable.
this movie was so good at
that, with making the creature.
Um, Unknowable and making the,
reaction to said creature relatable.
I was so en enthralled in the film that
it wasn't until that thing unfolded and
started to like do its crazy jellyfish
dance that I was like, holy shit, this
is based on a doff of, if Gil Gillian,
I looked it up and it is like legit.
the angels in Evangel, Gillian,
and of course the, the U f O from
like the Davis Earth sit still.
Cause that's sort of the, the creatures
default form is very much A U F O,
but the way that it is presented, the
way that it moves uh, and also the
fact that it is somewhat angelic in
it's display form was so fucking cool.
So, um, anyway, one of my initial
Jeremy: Yeah.
.
Jay: I, I know this is called
Progressively Horrified podcast.
I know horror's usually your thing, but
what genre would you say this movie.
Ben: I mean, it really straddles it
because like I, I feel like for the
first two thirds I really knew what
I was in for with this very kind
of like unknowable, like quasi, you
know, like rural yet cosmic horror.
But then we got the last third and we get
moments where there's just like straight
up Indiana Jones adventure music playing.
Jeremy: Yeah, I, I think when I
came out of this movie, there was
a lot of like, When, when we first
saw it, I sat it in theaters with
Alicia back when it first came out.
There was a lot of people that were very
like, oh, this isn't a horror movie.
And I, I don't think that's
Ben: The fuck it isn't.
Emmanuel: I was gonna say, look at that
thing in the sky and say it's not ho.
You're not
Ben: Stephen Yon gets digested
on screen and you're gonna tell
me, this isn't a horror movie.
I did not realize, like, it took me
a little bit with the characters to
realize just what they were trapped in.
what a horrifying death you are.
Who the fuck is watching the blood rain
scene and going, Nope, not a horror movie.
Jeremy: Yeah.
I, my reaction to it was
like, it is part horror movie.
It is also what I can only really
qualify as a Spielberg movie that like,
it is something with a big central
special effect that somehow manages
to build characters that you love
and care about and the fate of which
matters that gets you really invested
in this story, but also there's a big
fucking shark in the middle of it that
you're like, that's scary as hell.
you know, that is the thing I think I'm
here for, but also by the end of it,
you're like, God, I hope he gets away.
I hope everything's fine.
and and it's, it's sort of adventure.
The way that only those things
do it, it just barely, I think,
misses out on being a family movie.
I think it, feels like Jurassic
Park to me in a real in a real way.
And the way that like, post
Jurassic Park, Jurassic Park movies
do not feel like Jurassic Park.
It has a, a sense of imagination and
wonder to it that is, is regularly
missing from horror movies and is
largely missing from, you know,
action adventure movies currently.
Ben: Yeah, I, I update my answer.
This is Love, crafty and Jaws.
That's a genre.
Emily: yeah, yeah.
Eldridge Jaws.
Ben: We're gonna need a bigger horse.
Emmanuel: I, think it's interesting
that you say that it's like a Spielberg
movie because, I dunno, in looking at
some of its details, it almost feels
like a JJ Abrams thing like Super
eight Cloverfield Tim Cloverfield
Lane, where you're just like, the all
right, I think I know what this is.
And then there's a twist.
It's like, all right, I
didn't know what this is now.
And now it's something
completely different.
it's pulling aspects of all these
different things making it its own thing.
Ben: It, I think it's so interesting
that you bring up JJ Abrams because
JJ AMS was involved in Cloverfield.
Right?
I'm not making that up.
Okay.
Yes.
Like I feel like kind of, that may
have been one of the last, like before
this, one of the last big like monster
movies, if I'm recalling correctly.
And I feel like you can really see
like what the movie doesn't tell you I
think is really emblematic of like the
difference in approaching storytelling.
Like Cloverfield doesn't tell you the
origin of Cloverfield cuz it wants
you to find it on the, put in the
clues together and the supplemental
material like it wants to tease.
Not telling you the origin
of Cloverfield Nope.
Doesn't tell you the origin of Jean
jacket because it doesn't matter.
It it, all that matters is that it's here.
It's completely unknowable?
Good.
Stew in the mystery of the unknowableness
Emily: don't even know if it's alien.
Emmanuel: Well, I also think it's
probably the approach to marketing, right?
Like there's no a r g for gene jacket.
It's just, it's
Ben: God that was really JJ Abram's golden
era was like when ARGs were a thing.
That was his, that God, that
was his fucking time to.
Jay: These are great answers.
And actually I think for me, nope, Period.
With everything everywhere, all at once
are part of kind of a new wish phenomena.
I feel like we're seeing in
films where we have something
called like the antigen, right?
Where films are coming in and they're
not adhering to any one , specific genre.
But because you're like so engrossed
in the characters and in seeing how the
story in the world develops You know,
you're there for the entire story.
And, and I think most writers what their
salt know that, you know, so long as
you have kind of like strong characters,
you're willing to, to kind of stick it
out for anything that they go through.
You know, and so when I watched it,
at first I felt like I was watching
a Western, and then I felt like
I was, you know, the, the anime
influences were very clear to me.
Had a bit of that kinda like
dark humor, that dark comedy to
it, especially with characters
like Antlers and Angel coming in.
Definitely the horror elements,
something like the sci-fi.
So it's this interesting mesh of genres
that I feel like, conveys that feeling
of like, you're kind of unsteady and, and
not sure where to land because it's just
like, just like, the experience that OJ
and NEM will go through in terms of trying
to figure out what this creature is you're
trying to figure out, you know, what
kind of movie you're, you're watching.
And I don't think that's something
that, a lot of um, directors
can really pull off just yet.
You know, I, I, I don't think
they can come in, let alone.
Combining so many genres and
breaking genre conventions to
kind of keep the audience there.
But you know, I, think if a lot of
directors tried this, that , they
would end up getting themselves in
the audience lost in the narrative.
And I think that's kind of what's
so great about , this film.
Ben: To me where the narrative
really came together was that reveal
that the U F O isn't a ship, it's a
living creature and it's an animal.
This isn't a hyper-intelligent
watching being.
This is it's an animal.
And that to me was when the themes
like crystallized, and that's where
I understood like, oh, this is
why Gordy and the chimpanzee stuff
like this isn't just unrelated.
Dark weirdness.
This is all part of what I
took as the central theme.
Really what I got the most out of it
in terms of like stuff to dig into.
And I, I think this is a progressively
horrified first was uh, animal rights and
especially animals in the entertainment
industry and like how they're used,
how they're exploited and you know, and
the danger of us underestimating and
misunderstanding what it truly is to
be an animal and what animals can do.
Jeremy: I think there's, I
think there's a lot to that.
Before we get too much into that, I
did want to add sort of to Jay's point.
What's really interesting about this
to me, especially when you put it
next to everything everywhere, all
at once, is that in addition to being
cross genre, they are cross-cultural
in a way that these types of genre
movies traditionally haven't been.
Um, And you know, that everything
everywhere, all at once is a movie about
a, you know, Chinese immigrant family.
That is also a romance, that is also a
family movie, that is also a sci-fi movie.
you know, this is a horror movie.
This is an action movie, but it's
also an undeniably black movie.
There's so much about these two
characters and their interactions
that is clearly written by a person
that shares, you know, the, the sort
of like history and and language
with these characters that I think.
Often rings false when in a lot of these
movies you have a character who's a black
sidekick or fourth or fifth kid in the
group who's just like, barely considered
you know, not, not to point fingers
at Stephen King, but often, you know,
Emily: pointing
Emmanuel: But point
fingers at Stephen King
Jeremy: yeah.
There's, there's a lot of the black kid in
it, in, you know, various horror movies.
They're like, alright.
And also there's a black kid,
his thing is that he's black.
You know, and these are, these are
very fully realized, interesting,
diverse characters even within
like their own household.
Both Emerald and OJ are so like,
well-written and, and well thought
out in ways that go way beyond what
is often allotted to any characters
in a genre movie like this.
But especially black
characters in a genre movie.
Jay: When I, when I first started getting
into the filmmaking, no one could imagine
a black filmmaker kind of making, you
know, a genre movie at that point.
We mostly had spike Lee and then Antoine
People was kind of just showing up.
He wasn't like the force he was
today where if you mention Anton
Fuka be like, oh yeah, the same
thing with Gina Prince Bythewood.
She wasn't, you know, she was doing well.
She had like basketball, but.
That really kind of added to the
perception of what a black filmmaker
was, where, you have to make this kinda
if I would define it, it's like this
character drama that, shows how hard it
was, you know, growing up, as a Black
American under these circumstances.
Whether, you know, you're going
up kinda like in the hood or
going to like a black, historical
black college or whatever it is.
Ben: And preferably starring Omar.
Jay: Yeah, absolutely.
So I think that there was a lot of
imagination in Hollywood at the time in
terms of what you can be, because when
I went in , and still definitely today I
was mostly interested in writing genre.
You know, I I, I did a few
things for development and for
courses, but everything I wanted
to write was in comedy or horror
or action or something like that.
and I, think now black filmmakers and,
and kinda minority filmmakers in general
are starting to kind of like break those
boundaries and I think part of what's
really funny about this is that and I know
the part Emily is really excited to talk
about here, but this is kind of the stuff
that, you know, we grew up on, like, you
know, anime and comic books and all that
stuff and what strongly influences us.
So, you know, spike Lee grew up in a.
Particular era that kind of
influenced filmmaker, what we
grew up in, like a brand new one.
And, this is how our sensibilities
have kind of evolved.
And, and the last thing I just wanna
make really quickly is that, as I
was saying, you know, the character
writing is so strong, but I also
think in terms of both movies,
everything everywhere at once and nope.
these still manage to be universal because
to some degree everyone can like, identify
that you can identify with the family
member that you're kind of like estranged
from, but kind of want to repair that
bond you guys had when you were younger.
You know?
And there's definitely things that
are keenly cultural about these films,
but in terms of just having that
commonality, that common language,
we're all able to really relate to them.
Emily: Yeah.
And to your point about the genre
film I feel like the term anti antigen
is really apt because it's not just
combining genres or, or, you know,
issuing the, the mantle of a particular
genre, but also reacting to genres.
And , that is one place that I feel
like diversity is really important.
It is something that is relatable
because we've already, we've all
kind of seen the same things, but
have different reactions to them.
And I, and that's a conversation that
I am incredibly invested in, in media.
One of the things about this movie that I
thought about a lot was our conversation
on this show about gremlins and how
we talked about how the, creatures in
gremlins were really taken for granted.
Especially by the white people in
gremlins, which were most of them
And in this movie you have this
sense of wonder and terror, the same
kind of sense of wonder and terror,
of like abyss or close encounters.
And, we now have a new and different
perspective that I feel is really, really
solidified by the scene with the chimp
that this reflection of ourselves that
we see in these creatures is terrifying
because it's unknowable and is, is more
effective when it's unknowable, but not.
Ben: I do appreciate this movie doing its
part to raise awareness of, yeah, chimps
are really fucking strong and dangerous.
Don't fuck with them.
They will fucking kill you.
Don't fuck with chimpanzees.
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: I found it interesting what you
were saying about the western elements
of it, because correct me if I'm wrong,
it does feel like between uh, movies
like this and uh, the harder they fall
that came out on Netflix last year,
that there's a conscious concerted
effort to reclaim the historically
accurate black cowboy and man do.
I feel like before the, you know, he
gets killed by a quarter falling from
the sky, you could have Keith David
Star in like a real, you know, Clint
Eastwood style modern Western type movie.
Jeremy: easily.
Emily: Okay.
And he was kind of ashamed with his
beautiful voice coming in as like a ghost.
Ben: I do have a question for it
because, and maybe this is just me
just reading into something that
isn't necessarily there or me just not
trusting anyone and like who's too deep
into Hollywood, the whole claim that
they're the descendants of the jockey
in the first ever motion picture.
Do we think that's real or do we think
that's something Keith David made up
to promote like his horse wr like his
horse trainer business in Hollywood?
Because it sounded like that Keith,
David started the business and they
only ever talk about it in a very.
Rehearsed memorized speech.
So I like, I always just wondered like, is
this real or is this like a sales gimmick?
Jay: I'll let everyone else answer
then gimme a long answer, but I
personally thought it was real.
Emmanuel: I definitely think it's real.
I mean, thinking of my own
grandpa who's, Is black.
Like it is, it is very much a,
we, this is a claim that we have.
Like, no one can take this from you.
This will always be a part of
your heritage, so don't let
anyone tell you otherwise.
We were there first, we were there
even when they first started filming.
Like, you can't cut us out of I
don't think there's any reason
to, like, within the story itself
to sort of undercut that idea.
I think it's very much
like it's legitimate.
Ben: The only thing that put the thought
in my head was when they were playing
the commercial and I realized like, oh
shit, this is word for word, the exact
speech that Emerald had in the first one.
And like, I, I kept going like,
are you gonna bring it up or like
outside or in context, like it
that it means something to you.
Emmanuel: Well, given how fast talking
em is, that makes sense that it's
like the, is this something she is
just sort of running with or like.
Ben: yeah.
Jay: I, I actually think it's
interesting that she picked up
on it being disingenuous because
I, I hadn't requested it once.
And I think that's because in
Hollywood, everyone kind of has a
canned story that's kind of like
rehearsed over and over again.
Ben: That was the other thing,
like it was the, it was the
Hollywood element of it too.
Jay: even with kind of like, my
mentors You know, people will have
a story kind of like out of pocket.
And you know, I don't quite have
anything yet because I'm not quite
kind of like as practiced when I walk
into meetings or pictures or whatever.
But, you know, I'll be like, you
know, my name is Jamal Joseph.
You know, I have a, a a a
master's degree in film.
And by the way, the first time
I nearly died, I was like,
you know, two months old.
Something like that to give people
a brief overview hoop of my history.
But then it also makes them interested.
My dad has like a similar thing
where he'll mention, oh, he is a
Columbia professor, you know, he
was part of the Black Panther party.
He was arrested and he'll tell the
story about how he before he became a
Columbia professor, which involves, you
know, being on the campus at Columbia
University and talking about, you
know, how they had a burn to down.
And I can recite that story
because he's told it so many times.
But you know, I think half of the industry
is just like selling yourself as fast as
possible, as much as you are the project,
because you might not get that one, but
you want them to remember you and then,
you know, bring you back to the next one.
So that was my interpretation of it
Jeremy: Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I think it's practiced, but I,
I think it's very real and I think
it's very deliberate on Jordan Peel's
part to put that there, because of
the element we were talking about,
about reclaiming black cowboys.
the idea that this is a Western and
the idea that you know, black people.
Are new in the movie business that this
is something that they haven't been there.
And like the, he has this sort of like
central tenant in this movie of like,
no, we've been here the whole time.
You know, the first film
was a black man on a horse.
We were here, it was,
then we got pushed out.
You know, we, there were plenty
of black cowboys doing this work.
But then it became a like, cool thing
that white people wanted to associate
with being independent and you know,
standing tall and all this stuff.
And they have no interest in
portraying black people that way.
They wanted to portray
white people that way.
And so they took cowboy work from you
know, being something that, real folks
did to something that's a movie thing.
And uh, they've been like,
we've been here, speaking from
Jordan Peel's perspective, like
we've been here the whole time.
It's not that
Jay: Yeah.
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: been pushed to the background.
Emily: Yeah.
The identity of the jockey on the
horse is historically not known, and
it's interesting too, because it is
the first film reel, which involves a
forgotten black actor and an animal,
which is I think really important to the.
Because we remember the image,
but we don't remember who.
That's the hungry camera lens, right.
That is the issue with the dream that you
never wake up from when you put something
on display, you feel like you can control
it or you feel like you, you can claim
it when the truth is a lot more complex.
And I feel like that also comes
into play here with the U f O not
being a spaceship full of aliens.
In a lot of these movies, like
the Day the Earth stood still,
or a lot of the, the Arthur C.
Clark work and a lot of the like
mid 20th century science fiction,
there becomes this narrative of the
aliens being a greater intelligence
that is supposed to come in as a
conscious or a conscience to mankind.
You know, the invading alien that
narrative also hasn't gone away.
But in this case, it's not a binary
thing where it's either the aliens
are evil or the aliens are good.
This thing is neither evil nor good.
Ben: I always like the mysterious
benefactor alien just because I
understand the appeal of like, we
are so bad at managing ourselves.
Please let there be something
better that can do it For us,
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: we suck as a species so hard.
Emily: I feel like there's
some privilege in there.
The fact that the movie is called Nope.
, right?
Where some people would have the, the
courage to approach something like that.
I don't wanna say courage
because it's
Emmanuel: Hubris,
Ben: uh,
Jeremy: hubris,
Emily: much better term.
The
Ben: lackness
Emmanuel: Oh, there you
Emily: Well, and I think that by the
fact that, that I chose the term courage
initially is an indicative of our
blind spots there, you know, for sure.
Because it's not, it's just,
it's a human curiosity that comes
from naivete in a lot of cases.
And this movie has a lot to say
about naivete when it comes to
things that we think we can control.
Hence the story of the chimpanzee.
Emmanuel: So just on your point,
like the, hubris, the existence
that I can connect with this
thing or I can control this thing.
We see that with the horse also
with that first scene where you
need to respect this creature.
Like it's bigger, it's stronger, it
can end your life without trying.
Ben: That hubris and from Jupe especially
to respond to his trauma by repeating it
I mean, that is Jude's entire life and
death defined by the hubris mistake of
thinking that a wild, dangerous animal
can be controlled was your friend.
And the lack of processing that
just gets you killed by a U F O,
Jeremy: I wanna talk a little bit about
ju one of the things that's interesting is
I do think there's sort of an intentional
contrast between him and OJ and this
movie they are both in one case, a
beneficiary in one case, a victim of just
like, strange accidents in fate, right?
And that like, jupe interprets the
fact that he didn't get killed by
this chimpanzee as some sort of
sign that like he has a connection
with these things, that like he
can, he can master it somehow.
That he is above this that he's above
getting beaten, getting beaten to death
by a chimpanzee, or swallowed by Alien.
Whereas, OJ has been sort of this victim
of seeing his, his father who was this,
you know, strong, intelligent, well
put together guy who just got killed by
random shit falling out of the sky and.
Yeah, he, he asked that question about
like, what do you call a bad miracle?
You know, it's something extremely unha,
unlikely that happened to him, a series
of extremely unlikely things that happened
to him that he is, he is reading as,
as more of like, a curse than anything
is that, you know, there's, there's
nothing bad that can't happen to him.
And that he, you know, takes that as
like, a thing that he can that keeps
him alive in, you know, the climax
and the, the later parts of this
movie is that he is completely ready
for something bad to happen to him.
And boy, let me tell you, having
seen this movie once and coming
back to it knowing what was going
on, Jupe is a son of a bitch.
Like, I, I did not realize it watching
the first time, but this man is
feeding this alien horses and like
he is doing it as part of the show.
Like, he's intentionally
feeding
this thing.
Emmanuel: animals.
That's what they always tell you.
Don't feed white animals,
Jeremy: Yeah, no, like he's, but
that he's murdering these horses like
to get this show, to get this kick.
Ben: which
he has been doing weekly for six months.
Jeremy: not only that,
Ben: horses.
Jeremy: but at the beginning of this
thing, They're having this conversation
where he's like, where OJ is like,
look, I want to like figure out a way
to start buying these horses back.
And he's like, oh yeah, sure, no problem.
Knowing full damn well that these
Emmanuel: Ain't no horse
Ben: Also he comes and invites
them to come to the show.
What did he think their reaction would
be to seeing the horses they sold
him be eaten by a U F O creature?
Emmanuel: So that's the thing.
I'm wondering, like do we think
his naivete is tied to, so like OJ
and Jude have different roles in
the entertainment industry, right?
Like Jude was the star,
literal star of his show and
not just the star of his show.
He's the only person
that doesn't get injured.
And so he's like, I'm special.
It's all about me.
OJ works behind the camera.
His whole thing is have
a respect for animals.
Don't turn it back on the animal,
don't look it in the face.
Keep that away from it.
Like so, like his informed trait is just.
Being careful, being cautious.
I'm a trained horse person.
But I know that I too, if I,
if I underestimate this animal,
it can kick a hole in my chest.
No problem.
And so part of the reason he survives is
like he has that healthy respect and he
understands like, even though I love this
horse, this horse loves me and I've raised
it and trained it, it can still, if I
let my guard down, it can be really bad.
And so I wonder if like we're intended
to see that juxtaposition, but also to
understand like they have completely
different approaches to the world, right?
Ojs whole thing is responsibility.
I've gotta keep the fridge going.
I've gotta make sure this
business days ju is I'm the star.
I gotta big people in.
Like my whole thing is like being this
spectacle as opposed to creating this.
Ben: I think it's almost.
Respect for the animals almost
translates into morality in this movie.
Like I feel like Emerald gets more
of the big hero moment, but I feel
like that she has like an arc.
Like I don't, I feel like OJ doesn't
go on as much of an arc just because
he kind of already starts as like he is
the figure who has the ultimate, like
he is our avatar of good treatment and
respect and understanding of animals.
Emily: And he prioritizes
the animals never no
Ben: Yeah.
Like I love the scene where they're at
the, like the fast food restaurant with
the amazing offscreen fly with like
the fight behind him in the window.
Just great stuff.
Like I'm always just a fan of like
those kinds of background details.
But when he's trying to do like an actual
debrief and start like talking strategy
and what to do and Angel and Emeril
are just like, we, we don't want him.
No, just
Jeremy: Angel literally
tells him to read the room.
Emmanuel: Yeah.
No one wants to talk about that, bro.
Ben: Yeah.
Like I love, like what a great,
wonderful human moment, but also again,
one that shows that like OJ is the
most like focused and on top of, and
understanding and like, He's the worst,
like with people skills, I don't know.
I just think it's really great how
the movie positions him as like,
especially with his understanding
of animals and that theme, like
he's kind of always in the right,
but he's never like you know, in
like a merry sue insufferable way.
Like in a very well done.
Jay: I kind of wanna go backwards
a little bit here because there's
something I didn't quite realize
until we started discussing it.
And it goes back to this, thing about
the black cowboy and I guess kind of.
The wild west and the
frontier war, like in general.
But there's a real sense I think of,
exploitation versus, using the land to
kind of like your advantage, which are two
very different approaches that I think,
you know, settlers could have taken.
And we chose a lot of, or rather
they chose a lot of the the other
where, you know, let's exploit the
land, let's exploit our resources,
you know, and so yeah, there, there
he is kind of feeding horses, you
know, he's, he's, he's exploiting o
J's family at the same time that he's
trying to exploit the alien, right?
For his own personal.
And he gets, like, he, he does
get his karmic feedback for
that for everything he does.
But it is interesting that kinda like
in this, in this cowboy narrative,
the guy who has most made the
identity out of being a cowboy is
the one who's kind of the, the most
exploitative out of all of them.
And this is actually something I wanted
to mention before when we were talking
about the origin of the family and
them reclaiming the cowboy identity.
But when you first start studying
adaptation, it is staggering the amount
of westerns that you find out were
actually the story of like a black cowboy.
Emily: Mm-hmm.
Jay: Probably would wanted to adapt.
And then they're like, let's put John
Wayne in there, because there's no way
an audience is gonna watch like a black
man all the way through or whatever.
There's a stagnant number, and I think I
told the story on the podcast last time.
You know, so feel free to edit this
out if I've already mentioned it.
But this, the story of the Harriet
movement that was made was amazing.
Where they tried to get this movie
made like 10 years ago and there
was anec that was running into it.
He's like, yeah, this is great.
Let's get Julia Roberts as Harriet.
You know, let's put, put in there your.
Ben: I would, I would watch the fuck
out of Julia Roberts', Riet Tubman.
Like in the same way as that, like
Donald Glover skid like standup
routine about Michael, Sarah as shaft.
Like I would watch that just
for like the, holy shit.
They did what?
Jeremy: Yeah, I think it's so funny to me.
Well, not funny, that's
not the word but like
Ben: Yeah,
Julia, as Harriet Tubman
is objectively funny.
I'm
Emmanuel: It's funny cause in my
head, like I had no connection
between Julia Roberts and Cara
Johansen, but apparently she was this
car Johansen of like 15 years ago.
Emily: Oh yeah.
I was gonna say like not
Jeremy: not to do that unfor
or, you know, fortunately
Ben: mean, I
forget where, but like I, I think
I heard somewhere like every major
black action star of like the last 30
years has had like a bass res pitch
that they couldn't get off the ground.
Jeremy: yeah, I, I think the interesting
thing to learn, like learning the
history of Harriet Tubman is not like,
obviously, obviously she's black, but
pretty notoriously like she was stocky
and strong and knew how to use a shotgun
and could beat some ass if she needed to.
There's nobody, like, there's almost
nobody in Hollywood for them to cast.
That would be anything
like a real Harriet Tubman.
Jay: Yeah.
Emily: out there, there are people out
there, but they're not like, they don't
have the same star power, you know?
They don't have the name
Jeremy: I mean, size-wise, I don't know.
You get Quinta Brunson in like a,
in a gym for six months and just
really work up that upper body.
Maybe she's the right height to pull that
off, but like, even Harriet, the casting.
Very Hollywood.
They just, you know,
Ben: Yeah.
Jeremy: it's
Jay: Yeah.
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: I mean, it's a lot of
like, I'm sorry, what was this?
Historical person's actual skin tone.
Eh, whatever Zoe.
fine.
Emmanuel: you.
Yeah.
Jay: You know, it's.
Attitude where it's like, it
doesn't, it doesn't matter.
It's more about the story that counts.
You know, I did something.
I don't think I can
legally mention the name.
I, I, I'll say it was a pirate story.
I'll put it like that.
bu kind of know a bit more about this than
Ben: Oh yeah.
I, I, I know, I know, I know a bit of
this story, but I'll I'll let you tell it.
I mean, could be How gracious of
me to let you tell your own story?
Jay: you know, it's this like, fascinating
story about this person that comes from
a family that had a lot of different,
cultural backgrounds she had a brother
with kind of a medical condition and none
of this stuff was reflected at all in
the original script that they gave me.
And, you know, I'm, I basically
am the writer for the uh, uh,
rewrite of this, of the screenplay.
You know, that's already been decided.
So I'm not selling myself.
I'm saying this is the direction
where I think it needs to go.
I think we should, you know, really
focus in on this person's life because
she had a really fascinating life.
This is like some, some great stuff
and people are like, oh, well that's
not the part that's important about it.
We just want it like the female pirate.
It's like, you know,
that's the important part.
I'm like, you, you gotta be kidding me.
To erase her whole kind of
like, Cultural background and
her motivation and all that.
It's, it's, you just kinda like,
want the name and nothing else.
That's like insane to me.
But it's it's, it's sadly
a very common attitude.
Ben: And again, played by Julia Roberts.
Jeremy: Yeah, I, man, that's,
that's really interesting to me.
There was one thing I wanted to come
back to that's, it is sort of related
to this is we had mentioned OJ and
then he, he is sort of like the moral
center of this movie to some extent.
I, I do think he has an arc, which
is that, like his arc is that
he knows what's right from the
beginning and he can't speak up.
Like he can't take charge of things.
He's used to initially deferring to
his dad, you know, doing what his, his
dad does to letting him run things.
And when he loses his dad, he can't be the
authority figure that he needs to be to
like step up and tell these people what's
right and to do what he knows is right.
Eventually he has to take
center stage in this story.
He has to be the one that, you know, lures
the alien out he has to do what's right.
He has to literally stand up and
make this thing look at him so
that his sister can get away.
And I think that's, you know,
that's an incredible arc.
I can't see you know, him, him really
at the beginning of this movie, being
able to make that decision that, you
know, he, he knows the right thing to
do rather than deferring to other people
to, to choose to do the right thing.
Cause he is at the
beginning really desperate.
Like he's, you know, not able , to
talk to these people, but he's losing
his grip on his, you know, dad's
legacy, on his horses, on the ranch.
Like, everything that matters to
him is slipping away and he is
powerless to do anything about it.
And it's not until his sister presents
like the idea of this alien as an
opportunity that he is able to like, see
that as a way to, get the money to, to
have this Oprah moment, but specifically
to turn that into a way to save the
ranch and his, his father's legacy
Ben: one thing I really wanna talk
about it, is kind of where I think
the movie failed a bit for me.
I love this movie.
I think this movie is
absolutely incredible.
But I think that the conversation that
the movie starts, but doesn't have a
firm stance on or answer to is okay.
Like how then should animals be.
In the entertainment industry because
the scene where it's like, oh, OJ got
fired and now they're bringing in this
ridiculous like green screen horse
shaped, the vaguely horse shaped thing.
And that's played as like kind of like
a joke and like a bit of a bad thing.
But also like, aren't we also
saying that these animals like
shouldn't be like exploited and
mistreated for the entertainment?
Like where is the line?
Like, okay, chimpanzee definitely
needs to be c g I, but we are
gonna make real horses run through
this wind tunnel like we made.
And I don't feel like
the movie firmly decides.
Like what is Hollywood's
responsibility and how should we
be treating or depicting animals?
Exactly then.
And I just feel like it's a conversation.
It starts, but doesn't come
to a firm conclusion on.
Emily: well, I feel like it's that they
should be respected and we shouldn't
expect things of them that, you know.
unreasonable.
if you're taking a film of a
horse running, you know, horses
run the gallop and that's fine.
Like you could, you can work around that.
But like
making a horse act and listen, you know,
tell the horse we're ready to shoot, you
know, , like, that's not how it works.
Ben: I guess that's just where it is.
And like in a movie all about
the dangers of using animals to
achieve spectacle, it's, it still
uses animals to achieve spectacle.
Emily: yeah.
But I think also I think it's more than
just about animals, and I think it's
about exploitation as a part of spectacle.
They do have the horses.
But the horse action that I, that
was non CGI was all things that
the horses are trained to do.
Opposed to an ape, which is
Ben: They definitely made a real ass win.
I mean, unless that wind tunnel was
totally c g I, I looked like some intense
ass like wind to send a horse through.
Emily: I don't think that, that was real.
Ben: I mean, not when it's getting
sucked up, but like lucky when they're
being chased and stuff like that.
Like that's a lot
of
wind and stuff that looked real when ojs
Emmanuel: I feel like there's
this continuum that's like Jean
jacket, Gordy lucky, right?
Like Jean jacket is completely unknowable.
Not of this earth.
There's no way to like train
or work with this animal.
You've got Gordy, that's a chimp
and you gotta be careful of chimps.
Something could set them off.
But like we've worked with
horses for millennia, right?
They've been in film for centuries,
and so I think there's still that
respect, but there is, if you're talking
about the degree to which you can
know this beast, I think if anything
OJ knows horses and trust horses.
There's a mutual understanding
there that doesn't exist with
those other two creatures, right?
I think that's kind of why we get like
the chapters of the story in this way.
Emily: So the, the story of the chimp,
I've talked about it and I've promised it.
Is based on a thing, a real
thing that happened in, I
think it was 2008 or something.
It was, it was after the millennium,
but there was a family that was
keeping a chimp that had been on
television, that had been, performing.
And it was one of those Siegfried
and Roy situations where they had
a wild animal and they treated that
animal like it was a child, or, you
know, like it was not an animal.
So much so that the chimp, because
it was so stressed out in an
unnatural environment, this is
Travis, and he was prescribed Xanax.
So he was taking all this Xanax and he
also had alcohol there were a lot of
missteps going on with the, the training,
the so-called training because it's
really easy to mistake the behavior
of an ape, which is very relatable to,
with the behavior of a human child.
On the surface I mean, I.
Treat my cats.
Like I talk to my cats all the time.
Like they, they can hear
me and understand me.
They don't.
And I know that probably, but this,
the story of Travis is one of those
things that is so horrifying because
A, and talk about the Oprah shot.
The woman whose face was clawed off by
Travis, the chimp, appeared on Oprah
and, and became like this recurring
presence on Oprah at, before and after her
surgery where she became this spectacle.
She consented to this.
But again, when you're, when you're
dealing with trauma and a trauma,
that intense the definition of
consent in terms of that kind of
spectacle gets really, really blurry.
And it's really easy for media to exploit
Ben: We do see the result
of like the surviving victim
like years later without lips.
And it's,
Jay: Yeah.
Ben: Yeah.
Jay: To her.
He even waves her out in the crowd.
Emily: Yeah,
Ben: her his first crush, which was weird.
Oh.
And she's wearing a
t-shirt of her reul face.
Emily: yeah.
And you, but,
Ben: it's all an absolute mind fuck.
Just a whole lot of, just a whole lot of
Emily: Yeah, so Travis, Travis, the chimp,
was a, was in a bunch of commercials.
It was 2009, and he, let me find the,
the name of his victim, because I
think that's pretty important here.
Her name was Nash.
And she has been a, she's appeared on
the Oprah Winfrey show before and after
her surgery, and it was very similar.
She was wearing a veil, just like
the, you know, that's very like a
one-to-one reference in this movie.
So that's, that's important.
All right, so that's that story.
Jeremy: Yeah.
I think it, the, the layered approach
thing is, I think a thing that uh,
Jordan Peele is, is sort of notorious
for at this point, because, you know,
us, we talked about there being this
moment where you're like, wait, are we
the tethered or are we the ones that
are, you know, acting like, acting like
these richer people, even though we have
no reason to buy boats and fancy, you
know, second houses and things like that.
We're just trying to
be like, what they are.
Ben: I am buying so many
Pokemon figurines I don't need.
This is clearly tethered shit.
Jeremy: Yeah.
But I, I think the, the same thing
applies here with the, the sort of
Ben: Am
Jeremy: treatment to various people.
Yes.
You were, you were
Jay: Yeah, . I just, I just think it
is a lot of trauma, but it's trauma
turned into exploitation for profit,
which I think is relevant to the
Black American experience and the
Asian American experience, you know?
Emily: Yeah,
Jay: because that's almost for the longest
time when I was mentioning, you know,
what we do in, in kind of like Hollywood.
That was like the other answer.
For the longest time, you could only make
a certain, you know, you could only make
kind of like the slave narrative that's
a movie, and that's what you had to make.
You draw people there and it's like,
you know, and yeah, you attached a
ton of, of, of black talent to it I
don't know if you saw the, the very
recent controversy It's this new movie
where that Will Smith is, is starring
in, I forget the name of the film
Ben: Emancipation,
Jay: Yeah, that
Personally, I, I'm neutral.
I'm like, yeah, that's a little weird.
But I don't like have
suspicions right off the bat.
But the the producer of this film, his
white producer, he bought like, you
know, his, his card of, of, you know,
the Slave that the film was about to the
premiere, and he's like, oh, I wanted a
piece of him to be here, the film day.
And the founder of the Blacklist,
Franklin, Leonard on Twitter actively
pointed out, that's really weird,
.
It's like,
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: weird.
Emmanuel: He talks about how
it's part of his collection.
This dude has multiple pieces like this,
and you bring one like a date to a film.
Ben: I'm sorry.
Your collection is pieces of people.
That's a thing that's in literally
every serial killer story.
Emily: yeah.
Ben: That's
not an okay thing to have.
Emily: I think Jay, you've, you've hit
on something that was sort of in my
mind that I, I've been thinking about
is that exploitation of trauma, the only
character that really is like actively,
that we see actively dealing with trauma.
Is OJ he is thinking, he's
not trying to run away from it.
He's not trying to put on a face,
Jeremy: Now I do feel like this is a
good point, a place to point out that
Emerald does go to therapy apparently.
Uh, She has a therapist that she
Ben: Yes.
She doesn't do therapy correctly.
She's
Emmanuel: That doesn't happen by osmosis.
You can't just absorb it through the skin.
Jeremy: I, mean, I, guess they
have just some really colorful,
like pillow talk, right.
You know?
Ben: like I love, I very much
love how casually gay Emerald is
like it's not a coming out thing.
It's not like, oh, me and dad
didn't get along cuz of homophobia.
Like Emerald is, we know Emerald
is gay because she just casually
brings up multiple women she's
sleeping with and casually hits
on woman at an electronic store.
Jeremy: One of my favorite moments
is it's the moment when she hits on
that woman at the electronic store.
We don't even see the woman really,
like, we see like her arm as emerald's
walking past, and she, she says to
the woman, oh, you look really pretty.
You know that's a really nice dress.
And she turns to oj Is this, you
look like she got a big house.
That was like, okay.
Jay: Yeah.
Emily: Yeah.
And
Ben: is a gift,
Emmanuel: She's electric.
In this movie
I have in my notes, like Kiki
Palmer could sell me a bridge.
Like it's just,
Ben: oh yeah.
Emmanuel: you
Ben: I mean I love how she's doing
the speech before she fucks off to
the craft table, like she is selling
all of these people like in there.
But um, I mean, in terms of how it is
about spectacle and exploiting spectacle
and for trauma, like I do think you
get an interesting gamut of, I don't
know, attitudes towards it, where you
have ju who is just pure exploitation
and doesn't know the danger he is in.
You have the grout, you have like the
lowest voice of all time, who at a certain
point just seems to decide like suicide
for art, like, and knowingly destroys
himself for this quest for spectacle.
Which I think is an interesting, I
think as creators have all been in there
where it's like that self destruction
is worth it for creative fulfillment.
Like I think, I think hopefully you
don't
see it out, but I think
it's a relatable impulse.
Jeremy: stay up till
3:00 AM to finish writing
the
Ben: But I think, and again, I, I
absolutely love the, this ending
cause what I love that ultimately
this, the Oprah shot, this perfect
inable incontrovertible, yep.
That's pronounced correctly.
This is what happens when you
read and you don't know how
words are actually pronounced.
Emily: And you spent some time in the
Ben: there you go.
Like she gets the shot, she gets the
proof, and yet we see, we very explicitly
see her not like, ignore the photo
that she spent this whole movie trying
to get in favor of rushing like to oj
and I don't know, it's just very nice
that like for as much as you know,
spectacle and fame has been their goal.
Ultimately, like the imagery of
the movie is rejecting, like is
rejecting self-destructive spectacle
for the connection of family.
Emily: Yeah.
Well, I also feel like
her, her trauma or her like
Ben: tremor was that she hadn't
gone to do an Aira slide and then
she got to doing a Kira slide.
Emily: same, but her, stress response,
I mean her, her panic response to the
situation is finally tapered off now
that she knows that she's got the shot,
you know?
And I also, there's so much,
there's so much about it.
Um,
Ben: It's
Emily: yeah, the fact that like she's
interested in the shot OJ is interested
in understanding as much as he can, the
creature, and then protecting his horses.
Like he, he just needs to know
enough rules to protect his horses.
And then Angel is the,
you know, aliens guy.
Ben: I loved Angel at the dinner
table being like, we're doing this
for like altruistic reasons, right?
Like, th this could be saving people.
Like we could be doing
this cuz we're good people.
And there's like,
sure
Emily: he's
speaking of this on on a
kind of a global scale.
And I feel that kind of hearkens
back to the, the sort of
exploitation cuz there's also, okay.
The ancient aliens, and this is
something came up with my friends and
I when we were watching the movie,
Jeremy: He does.
He does in fact cite ancient
Emily: he cites ancient
Ben: Yes,
Emmanuel: freeze sight.
Ancient aliens is
like making my English teacher
instincts just like spasm.
Like
how dare you?
Ben: they also cite the Sieg and Roy Tiger
attack?
Jeremy: Yeah.
Emmanuel: yeah.
Ben: directly in the movie.
Jeremy: They're literate
people here, you know?
Emily: yeah.
The, the thing I wanna talk about
with ancient aliens is that this is
a series that continually ascribes
the the, accomplishments of ancient
civilizations that are not white.
To aliens.
And so, and I've seen a lot of
really great like, responses,
like meme responses to it.
It's just, just because white
people couldn't do it, doesn't
mean it was aliens, you know?
And this is also something that
I really appreciate about this
movie, cuz he's, Angel's whole
shit is played entirely for laughs.
Jeremy: I am so continually
impressed by Jordan Peel's ability
to hide things in plain sight.
Like we get that gimmick with the, well
when she's like, she's wandering around
being super kinetic, touching everything,
getting into somebody's photo with the
well that, like we get that brief like
introduction of that thing that is the
answer to a question posed throughout the
rest of the movie, which is, how do we
get a shot of this thing if it kills all
the electronics when it's around that?
It's like, this is the answer to that.
And we don't ever realize it until
like that moment when it's like, oh no,
this is, this is the thing she needs.
Ben: This movie really.
Check off guns.
Like I, as soon as she started talking
about being a motorcyclist, I'm like,
I know she says the, I know the trip.
Like she better fucking ride a motorcycle
Jeremy: When it, it's so like,
it's so not chekhov's gun.
It's like Chekhov's rubber
band, Chekhov's, like, you
know, chekhov's like arm brace.
like it's, it's not things you expect
to come back, but then you see 'em
again and you're like, oh shit.
That's the answer.
It was there
Emmanuel: Don't you think
that's a marker of like
Jordan peel's, like
directing and storytelling?
Because we see that and get out with
like the camera flash and like the whole
like, oh, like M M A is a chess game with
your mind and you gotta three, like all
of these things come back in his movie.
Jay: yeah.
Ben: Ugh.
They're just, they're all
just so well and
tightly
constructed.
Jay: that's exactly.
what my plans gonna be.
I, I, I think what makes his movie so
kind of great and engaging is that there's
not like a single wasted element when you
watched him in there where it, it like
everything is going to come back around.
Even the bazaar footage, antlers kept
watching, you know, or editing in the
background of the film was relevant
somehow to the greater narrative.
Emily: Yeah.
It was all the eyes of
those animals of looking all
these animals in the eye.
And I thought, I was
like, this is so good.
This is, it's so cohesive.
It's, it's, it's really, it's really good
you guys just how all of these, the images
that, you know, all these things mesh
together and, you know, it's even more so
like the, the checkoffs rubber band thing.
Emmanuel: Like it's, it's watching
Jackie Chan fight choreography.
It's like you don't know
what's gonna be useful.
Like, is this just a prompt?
Is it just background?
Like, which of one of these
things is gonna come into play?
Like, there's no way to know.
Emily: Yeah.
And you know, even like, this is Jordan
Peel's third movie and yeah, he may,
might have like, he's got his recognizable
steps here, but this is also very
different from any of his other movies.
And he still manages to grip you.
In a way that, you know, like you
can't really predict what's happening
but you are still so involved in the
characters that you're not trying to,
you're not like critiquing the movie.
It's hard to critique the movie
because you're so busy enjoying it.
Jeremy: Yeah.
Jay: You know, I, I, I think that's really
I, I think there are two things there.
And then you mentioned, so like that
I, I, I've been itching to comment on,
but the, but the first part is that
Jordan like respects his audience.
He respects their intelligence.
And I think that's super important
in the narrative, you know, and
it's really easy to tell, I think,
easier than a lot of creatives give
credit for when like, someone is
condescending you through their work.
that's where, you know, Knight
started to fall off a little bit,
where, you know, he had his GI again,
but then he worked into every film
that just didn't trust the audience
enough to put everything together.
It's like, you know, here, let me explain
it to you exactly what's happening.
And, you know, that got
owed for a lot of people.
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: Old.
Emmanuel: was gonna say, listen to
y'all talk about old was delightful.
Ben: Oh,
Emily: thank you.
Ben: I'm, glad something good came
out of that movie, came out of us
Emily: Yeah.
I mean, I enjoyed yelling about
it with everybody, but um, yes.
Jay: I gotta say about the characters,
especially about our main group,
this is the type of group of people
that I love balling, you know?
I could, I could just in terms
of how, like they, they came
together as a group and there's
a lot going on with all of them.
Even if it doesn't come to the surface
of the film you kind of get that
like, Angel kind of gives us the
rundown that, his life is a mess.
And then he starts like, spotting off
these conspiracy theories and is like, oh,
okay, that's why she left you, you know,
it's, you know, and so, so you can put,
Ben: I, really wanna know
what CW show she left in for.
Emily: All of them.
Jeremy: Outer Banks.
Jay: you, you know, antlers has to
have a lot of bullshit going on if
he's, you know, prepared to sacrifice
his life to get like the perfect shot,
Jeremy: Just antlers.
Outfit shows it like as a whole story.
Just the fact
Emily: Oh yeah.
Jeremy: in this like almost Jedi robe
looking thing up on the hillside.
Emily: is so fucking haunted.
Ben: I think Angel finds like
a pill bottle in antlers bag.
So I wonder if we're getting one of those,
like classic like, oh, I'm dying, so
before I die I'm gonna get the perfect
shot of me being eaten by an alien.
Emmanuel: Would also like
go out on my own terms
Ben: One of, one of those, like, I, I
wonder if like, that's like possibly
some subtext going on with his character.
Jay: I think you're right, I have a
slightly different read on antlers,
especially in the, in the greater context,
but being a story about exploitation.
last year, I took one of the people I
used to mentor on a trip I actually met
her because she was a documentary subject
of mine, she's a surfer, all that stuff.
And while we were on this trip, she
kept mentioning this documentary she
watched about an octopus that the
uh, documentary team was following.
And when they saw it dying, and
could have done something to help it.
They didn't do anything to help it at all.
And this upset her so much.
she eventually asked me about my opinion
on it, and I said, I don't think I
would've been in much of a different
position from those filmmakers.
You know, when you're a documentary
filmmaker, there's almost like a I, I
guess ethical isn't the way to put it,
especially since the creature died in
this context, but you're not kind of like
involved, when I did the documentary
on her, I became friends with her
and her family after the documentary.
But,
.
But that's kind of the way documentary
filmmaking is you have to take a step
back and remove yourself from your
subjects that you're following, and atler.
Seems to be like the extremist version
of that of letting his subject kinda
like, take its course and, and really
just making to an almost a cynical
degree, like the ultimate documentary.
Like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna watch this
creature do, its thing, even if it
means that it's going to eat me because
I'm such a professional filmmaker.
That was kinda like my, my read on it.
As hard as explain and sounds a little
cold and indifferent and it, and it kind
of is, but for the sake of being ethical,
you're not, you know, really supposed
to get involved and deep down in there
Emily: Yeah.
No, that's a good point because
especially when we're talking about
the relationship with the camera and
the creature, and how we expect certain
creatures to, to behave and we sometimes
get into this This question that is
almost quantum, where like are, as we
are observing it, we are affecting it.
So are we going to submit ourselves
entirely or keep ourselves completely
separate, you know, and how do we do
that while also in interacting with an
environment where we can look at it.
And in this case jean jacket, the
monster is essentially the, it will
not attack unless it can see your eyes.
And it, I think that very smartly, it's
is very much like an iris in pupil.
Ben: I, I love that rule.
Like I absolutely love,
especially with the theme of
spectacle, because it, it makes.
The danger of it literal, that
like your survival is dependent
on your ability to fight.
The temptation to look at spectacle.
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: Only by turning away from everything
that like, human nature tells you to
look at, do you have a hope of surviving?
It's literal.
It's such, that's what I love about
horror and it's, so the big thing about
love about superheroes too, is when you
can take those kinds of big metaphysical
themes and really literalize them,
Jeremy: yeah, it really has this sort
of like Orpheus and Uy kind of thing
to it, of like the only way you can
survive is to not do the thing that
would ensure you survive normally.
Like you can't
Jay: yeah.
Yeah.
Jeremy: up, know?
Emmanuel: opens it's lock's wife, right?
Like, you don't look back
like you don't like the
Emily: Yes.
Emmanuel: to do is not to look
like.
Emily: And that's
an animal thing
Ben: I would much rather be
in, turned into salt than
digested by spaceship stomach.
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: I still get, I'm still
getting nightmares about that.
That is a real bad way to go.
Emily: The fact that it's so slow.
Emmanuel: One of the off like wild
ideas I had while watching this was
like, man, these folks all have some
trauma they have to work through.
After these events, who's going?
Like, what therapist can you see to
work through this sci-fi bullshit
Emily: that's a question I have for a
lot of protagonists of various films.
Ben: if I was to like write like,
Nope, fanfic, I think it'd be really
interesting hear something that like,
you know, maybe has a hunting knife on
them and just somehow manages to like
fight their way out of jean jacket.
But then Jean jacket's up in
the cloud so after all that they
just like fall to their deaths.
Emily: Yeah.
so I know Jean jacket.
Uh, Vomited on the house, but I feel like
the fact that they're talking about how
Jean jacket is so territorial, I feel like
Jean jacket deliberately vomited on the
house as a part of like a territorial,
like almost territorial pissing
Jeremy: Oh yeah.
I mean, it, it spits the, the
horse directly into his windshield.
Like that can't, that can't
have been an accident.
That's a small target for him to hit.
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: fucking hated that,
like that practice horse.
Emily: Yeah.
He is like, wait a
minute, a fucking minute.
Ben: I mean, if I went to my normal
sandwich shop and they instead served
me a sandwich made of plastic and I
ate it, I would also be very upset.
So
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: coming from,
Jean jacket.
Jeremy: and eat all of them the next time.
Well, I think like, it's, it's interesting
to me to talk about this because I, I
don't feel like we have hit a point where
we have to like, run down the, things
that this movie does that are progressive.
Because I think we've hit all of them
already and it's as part of the movie.
It's not like something that's
extemporaneous or we really have to think
Ben: This movie really.
I mean, we barely even talked
about the fucking TMZ guy
Emily: Yeah.
Well, the fact that he is a TMZ
Ben: that everything
with that character was
Emily: And the only thing he cared
about was his camera, like he
Ben: and being recorded.
Not even his camera, just not having his
camera, just everything being recorded
when he's, when OJ is helping him up and
he is like, why aren't you filming this?
Jay: yeah.
And, and to me that was really funny
cause there are a few others that are
very sensitive about their cameras.
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: And he has no idea
there's an alien anything here.
He's just there to like cover the
horrible deaths of these people that
disappeared at the, you know, the show.
it, it is interesting to me because it,
it has so much commentary built into it
without stopping to deliver commentary.
It is, you know, it does have a,
a queer character at its center.
It is feminist without really trying
to be, there is a lot of stuff
about class and money in here.
There's a easily a lot of more stuff about
race and social justice than there is in
95% of the movies we talk about on here.
And like, it does deal heavily with
trauma and mental health and like, going
through that stuff without like really
needing to feel like it's pausing to do
those things because they are very much
part of the story and the characters
are so well considered that those things
like up naturally in their stories.
Emily: Yeah.
And the way that, that each character
is obviously dealing with trauma, and
you know, Whatever they were through,
they're dealing with it in, in very
different ways, which is, I, I think
really important conversation wise with
the, the how they're processing now.
Like, like you said, Jay, with all the
different points of view, you know,
how these different characters that.
Jeremy: Yeah.
So I guess, let me ask the,
the most obvious question.
Uh, Do we recommend people
check this movie out?
Emily: Yeah,
Emmanuel: Absolutely.
Ben: ass.
I'm so fucking literally.
Emily: I didn't know anything about this
movie except that it was ki like, I think
Ben said something about Spielberg and
it was like, it's kind of like Spielberg
horror and that is all I knew about it
and seeing how like it's trending right
now as like one of the best films of 2022,
deservedly so
Ben: Yeah.
absolutely.
One of the best films of 2020.
Emily: and so I went on, I went on my
streaming service and I just bought
it cuz I'm like, I hear this movie's
good, it's probably gonna be good.
And now I'm really glad that
I did because I'm gonna show
everyone
Jeremy: Yeah, it's on right now.
I don't know if this will be the
case when this comes out, but right
now it is on Peacock for free.
Emily: Ooh.
Emmanuel: That's how I watch it.
Jeremy: you can just drop in there.
If you have the peacock service, you can
watch it at no additional cost whatsoever.
So, yeah, I, I legitimately think, I
mean, for me, with the exception of, of
some weird indie stuff that I've seen
this year it's, I mean, and this would
usually be the, the weird indie thing,
but it's like neck and neck between this
and everything, everywhere, all at once.
For like the best movie of this year
I don't think much else comes close.
Emily: and everything everywhere.
All at once is a 24, which is like
of
Emmanuel: great
Emily: you'll go.
Jay: they're, they're great.
It's like a surprise in every block.
So just know it's gonna be weird.
And that's all, you know, and then
you just go and, I mean, they really,
they really make some, sometimes
they miss, but they really pick up
some really incredible movies there.
Emily: Yeah.
Jay: I, think it's gonna be
a really hard year for me to
decide what my favorite movie is.
Um, Everything Everywhere,
all at Once was incredible.
Nope, was incredible.
I think the same thing, but
you know, there are others.
I really thought the Northman was , a
different, and like incredibly made
film and I, I don't think it would like
pass a lot of the progressivism test.
I, I don't think it as a
piece of filmmaking, it's just
like really solid and strong.
There's like, the Woman King,
you know, which came out uh,
Ben: really need to see that.
Jay: yeah,
yeah,
Ben: Davis, my heart.
Jay: Yeah, I, you know, I don't think
it's gonna quite be in my contenders, but
you mentioned the heart of they fall and
and while I think it's in perfect movie,
eat SBA and Regina King just absolutely
steal the show and, elevate it so much.
So it's gonna be a tough
year for me to decide.
But I will say this due to personal
reasons, I'm not gonna be able
to go to the movies for a while.
Nope.
Was the last thing I had seen in theaters,
and it's gonna be the last thing I'm
able to see in theaters for a year.
And I over the moon that, it was
that movie that I saw in theaters.
I, I think it was the perfect
thing to watch on a big screen.
And I, I for everyone, especially
given like the Spielberg kind of
like comparison, that if you're a
fan of spectacle movies, if you're
a fan, a sci-fi, if you're a fan
of horror, if you're a fan of like
character drama, if you like your
comedy, I mean it's got there,
Emily: Yeah.
I, yeah.
If this movie is released, re-released
in theaters, which I hope it is,
especially in this era of streaming, I.
Ben: I.
Emily: I.
wouldn't just recommend seeing this movie.
I would recommend seeing
this movie in a theater.
And I hate going to theaters,
it's difficult for me to go to
theaters these days, but this is
a movie that absolutely benefits.
I mean, either way, if you have a nice
setup, you can watch it and enjoy it.
But it, it was made for the theater,
which is not something that is
said a lot for movies these days.
Jeremy: Yeah, I mean, even I have
a, pretty nice tv, but like, I think
there's something about those first.
Scenes with him, seeing the creature
moving between the clouds and sort of
the, the quickness and surprise with
which everything moves in those scenes
that like is, is just perfect for a
theater that, you know, still, still
comes across somewhat on a tv, but
is just not, not at the same level.
Emily: yeah.
There's some real industrial
light and magic quality to it.
Jeremy: And speaking of which what
do we uh, what do we wanna recommend
for people off, off this one?
Ben: I mean, we talked about
earlier, but jaws definitely jaws.
Jeremy: You haven't seen Jaws and we still
haven't covered it on here, surprisingly.
Ben: We definitely need to,
and, no, no actual sharks, so.
A spectacle animal attack movie that
respected its animals enough not to use
it, but it did make everyone very afraid
of sharks and I think did have devastating
long-term effects on the shark population.
So,
Jeremy: Mm-hmm.
Ben: doopy.
Emily: That's a, yeah,
Jeremy: I mean, probably though
people should be justifiably afraid
if they see a great white shark
Ben: Oh yeah, definitely.
For sure.
Yeah.
Like if, if you're seeing a great
white, like it's not good regardless of.
Jeremy: yeah.
Jay, what, what would you recommend.
Jay: Oh, I would recommend Arrival.
It's a more clinical film than this one,
but I think in terms of that process of
discovery and trying to figure out an
extraterrestrial creature and, and what
exactly it wants, but also in dealing with
family drama and family's trauma in a very
different way that we haven't really seen
before arrival is really great for that.
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: Yeah.
Emmanuel, what, what would you recommend?
Emmanuel: I had two things in mind.
I, I think attack the block has
been mentioned a number of times.
But on the heels of black sci-fi
Danny Lore when they were on here
mentioned clipping their concept albums.
They have one called Splendor and Misery
that imagines a slave revolt in space
and just what that would mean at each
track sort of contributes to that story.
And it's a blast.
It's one of my favorite albums
and name checks so much sci-fi.
Jeremy: Awesome.
And uh, what about you, Emily?
What have you got?
Emily: You know, close encounters
I think is worth watching just
to give this film some, some
contrast in terms of the outlook
and the abyss and things like that.
But what I really wanna recommend
is a YouTube channel that
is about respecting animals.
It's called Casual Geographic.
Yeah.
And it's,
Ben: title.
Emily: yeah, it's a.
Yeah, it's it's a black naturalist who
is talking very casually about animals
and all the crazy shit they do . And he
did talk about nope quite a bit, and he
talked about Travis, the champ and, uh,
Siegfried and Roy and things like that.
But it's a lot of fun and very interesting
and you know, respect wildlife, please.
Jeremy: Absolut.
The one I wanted to recommend I
was reminded of it when we were
talking sort of about antigen.
Movies that, you know, are, are
sort of horror based, but then
have sort of other stuff going on.
A lot of people know Gareth Edwards from
Rogue One, or Godzilla as a director, but
before he directed those to movies, he
directed a movie called Monsters it's
about a photographer who is down in part
of Mexico that has been sort of ravaged.
Um, There've been sort of alien monsters
that have fallen to earth and there's
sort of a, a contaminated zone between
where he is and the United States.
And it just so happens that while
he's there, he bumps into the
daughter of his, his millionaire boss.
And they're sort of basically
closing down the borders of this
part of Mexico that he's in.
So they need to get out before
before they're not allowed to leave.
And so since he can't, he decides
to take her through what's basically
this contaminated zone between the
two, where these sort of monsters
are everywhere and they don't,
they don't know where they are.
They're just sort of like having to.
Work their way through, you know,
to the US like they were they're
basically being led by a coyote,
but that deals with monsters.
And it's this really interesting
monster film that is also a romance
movie that is like straight up tension
for like a solid hour and a half.
That has really, really trippy monsters
in much the fashion that this movie has
monsters that, like, you look at 'em
and you're like, wow, what the fuck?
Who came up with that?
That is unknowable and
weird and giant and ancient.
And I think they, they do an
incredible job with that in monsters.
So that's, that's one that's worth
checking out, I don't think is quite at
the level of, you know, the, the two anti
genre movies we were talking about for,
you know, being the big ones this year.
But it's definitely worth like, going
back and, and taking a look at, especially
if you know, you like Rogue One, which
is a fucking fantastic movie and you're,
you know, looking to see what, Gareth
Edwards does with a different genre.
Jay: Nice.
Jeremy: Yeah.
Well that I think wraps it up for us.
Uh, Jay, did you wanna let people
know where they can find out
more about what you're up to?
Jay: Well, for me, if you wanna
find more about me, you can find my
Twitter, which is at the cynical angst.
Um, I hope to be updating it with
some more work related stuff soon.
And, you know, for questions,
comments, requests, anything, you
can email me@jjtwentycolumbia.edu.
Jeremy: Awesome.
uh, Emmanuel, where can
where can people hit you up?
Emmanuel: I am also on Twitter
at e Lipscomb two posting about
teacher things and media things.
chat.
Jeremy: Awesome.
As for the rest of us, Emily is at Mega
Moth on Twitter and mega underscore
moth on Instagram and@megamoth.net.
Ben is on Twitter at Ben the Con and
on their website@benconcomics.com.
And finally, for me, you can find me
on Twitter and Instagram at j Rome
58 and my website@jeremywhitley.com.
And of course, the podcast is on Patreon,
it progressively horrified on our
website@progressivelyhorrified.transistor.fm
and on Twitter at Prague Horror Pod
where we would love to hear from you.
And speaking of loving to hear from
you, we would love it if you would
rate and review this podcast wherever
you're listening to it right now,
that helps new listeners find it,
helps work those algorithms for us.
Hit those five stars and,
and help us out there.
Thank you so much to Jay
and Emmanuel for joining us.
Guys, I love this movie.
This was a real joy to, to get
to talk to all of you about it.
Emily: Awesome.
Emmanuel: Love it so much.
Jay: a lot of fun.
Emily: I have one more
joke about Michael Wincott.
Jeremy: Okay.
Emily: man yells at cloud.
Emmanuel: God damn it,
Ben: And that's the show.
Na na na na na na.
Jeremy: Oh, I'm allergic to that joke.
Ben: Emily, I think you
fucking have won this podcast.
Emily: I don't know,
Jeremy: Now that you're
properly horrified.
Ben: I, think you earned the
game time, Paul, with that one.
Emily: I will look into it.
It'll be horrified.
Jeremy: until next time, may
that joke keep you horrified.
Ugh.