Martijn van Zwieten, a game industry business coach, shares his insights on game company leadership and business development. He emphasizes the importance of setting clear goals and aligning the entire company towards those goals. He also highlights the need for effective communication and feedback mechanisms within the organization. While there are some industry-specific challenges in the game industry, the principles of running a successful business remain the same. In this conversation, Martijn van Zwieten discusses the fundamental aspects of running a business, including focus, alignment, and accountability. He emphasizes the importance of designing a company that supports the making of games, rather than treating the company as a byproduct of the game. Martijn also highlights the power of games as an interactive medium that allows for immersive experiences and the potential for impact in various areas, such as art, mindfulness, and education. He encourages individuals to set goals and prioritize their time to move the needle and avoid getting caught up in day-to-day tasks. Overall, the conversation explores the importance of self-reflection, long-term thinking, and finding one's purpose in the games industry.
Takeaways Leadership in the game industry is about convincing people to pursue a common goal. Setting clear goals and aligning the entire company towards those goals is crucial for success. Effective communication and feedback mechanisms are essential for maintaining alignment and improving performance. While there are industry-specific challenges, the principles of running a successful business apply to the game industry as well. Focus, alignment, and accountability are fundamental aspects of running a successful business. Designing a company that supports the making of games is crucial for long-term success. Games are an interactive medium that allows for immersive experiences and has the potential for impact in various areas. Setting goals and prioritizing time can help individuals move the needle and avoid getting caught up in day-to-day tasks. Self-reflection, long-term thinking, and finding one's purpose are important in the games industry.
GameWell is the ultimate podcast destination for anyone navigating the intricate world of game development. Tailored for industry professionals, aspiring developers, and game enthusiasts alike, this show offers a deep dive into the heart of game creation. Listeners can expect a treasure trove of knowledge, from insider tips on enhancing creativity and productivity to vital discussions on mental health in the gaming industry. Each episode is packed with interviews from diverse experts, ensuring a well-rounded perspective that enriches both your professional skills and personal well-being. Tune in to GameWell, where each session is a step towards mastering the art and science of game development.Â
Martijn:
Hey. Listen.
GameWell:
Welcome to GameWell, the podcast about a thriving future in games, from well-being and creativity to optimization and performance.
Kevin:
Welcome to this episode of GameWell. Today, I have with me Martin van Swieten. I've, attempted not to say Dutch. That was very difficult for me. Welcome, Martin.
Kevin:
You are a game company, a game industry business coach helping, all sorts of game companies around the industry to really pinpoint what their business is and how they can grow and how they can bring out what they want to bring out. Is that right?
Martijn:
Yeah. That's right. Good to be here.
Kevin:
Thank you for being here and taking the time. We've met, in person at Nordic. We've been pinging forth and back on LinkedIn a little bit, as we have some similarities. So I'm very, very excited to have you on the show and talk about everything, game company, business leadership, team development, whatever you wanna go down that rabbit hole. But let's, talk more about yourself first.
Kevin:
Who are you? What makes you tick? Maybe tell us a very funny little secret about yourself that nobody knows.
Martijn:
That's a good question. Man, I was not prepared for that, and it's very hot in my my attic here. So I was thinking of unforeseen things a little bit tricky. No. So I think what what most people don't know is, that I've organized a trade mission to Japan twice for for Dutch companies.
Martijn:
So I've always been very much on the PR side, the marketing side, biz dev side. But yeah. So I did some some event organizing for for a little bit, and I kick started together with, with a good friend of mine, kick started the relationship between the Dutch industry and the Japanese industry.
Kevin:
Nice. Nice. I mean, that resonates with me because I love Japan. So it's just, I I want I have so many more questions to that.
Martijn:
Yeah. I work behind you.
Kevin:
Oh, yeah. There's so many so many different layers to that. But, yeah, tell me tell me what is your favorite memory of that?
Martijn:
Well, the main thing is it was it was our first time organizing that, which is it was a lot more work than we anticipated at first because we're shepherding 15 companies through through Japan. They're all Dutch so they're very straightforward, very blunt, especially compared to to the Japanese people. So we're just doing our best to make sure that everything went right. So it's the whole thing is pretty much a big blur. All I remember is at the end of it, people were really happy.
Martijn:
And some people still come up to me saying, you know, that that was one of the best international trips we've ever made. Not not just because of everything we organized, but also because, you know, it's it's a lot of Dutch companies and they're all far away. So you get that extra bonding going on because it was such a dive into the deep end of the pool for for most people. So I'm really happy that we managed to pull that off.
Kevin:
I, I remember from my time being in Japan that there there's just some weird stories that I remember. I'm wondering if you had any, like, very unusual events that has happened. Maybe, like, a very specific story that we could hear about, that would be fantastic.
Martijn:
Yeah. Yeah. So one of the things that you hear a lot about, and and that I always been somewhat curious about is, the the hostess bars. Not because I wanted to go there, just because it's such an interesting concept. And so one night we were out and most of the most of the bars had closed, and we're trying to figure out, this was in Roppongi.
Martijn:
We were trying to figure out where we could go for another drink, and this guy approaches. He's like, hey. Do you want another drink? I said, well, this seems like you're gonna be pointing us towards a hostess bar. I was like, no.
Martijn:
No. No. No. No. I promise.
Martijn:
Like, it's not a hostess bar. I was like, yeah. Then it's gonna be very expensive. No. No.
Martijn:
No. It's not a hostess bar. So we walk for, like, 15 minutes going to this alley, going to a tiny narrow staircase up 3 flights of stairs. There's a guy behind a glass bulletproof window. He's like, oh, it costs this much.
Martijn:
The guy says, no. No. No. I I gave them a different price. It's, it's cheaper.
Martijn:
They can go in, and the door opens, and there's 5 ladies in underwear smiling at us, bowing. It's like, hey. Welcome to our hostess. Why? I was like, no.
Martijn:
No. We're we're out. We're not even gonna try this. It's, we're done. So we didn't go into that.
Martijn:
I'm not sure if that would have made it a better or a worse story, but that was I thought it was very typical.
Kevin:
Yeah. Yeah. I can remember some of those as well. That was really difficult to navigate around them and not getting logged in and kind of almost lie to it and end up in in the situation where you have to back out or not. Tell me more about what got you into games.
Kevin:
I think we have a little bit of a delay going on.
Martijn:
Oh, is it my Internet? I'm not sure. I know mine can be a little bit funky. Let me try plugging something in.
Kevin:
Maybe that helps. It also sounds like my computer is about to have a heart attack. So I'm not sure if it's,
Martijn:
Okay.
Kevin:
If if it's just my my laptop that needs to be rebooted. It's burning hot. I think we're okay now.
Martijn:
Okay.
Kevin:
Okay. So I'm I'm just gonna cut that out and, and edit for once. I I usually don't edit, but this never happens. It's cool. Martin, why don't you tell us a little bit how you got into the game industry in the first place?
Martijn:
Yeah. So a long, long time ago, I was actually planning on potentially doing a PhD in in video game, analysis, video game research. And then when I was writing my thesis, my my thesis instructor told me that he knew someone in a Dutch company in the games industry, and they were looking for a PR intern. I figured if I'm gonna go into games research, it would also be nice to know a little bit about the practical side. So I started the internship, and and I got stuck, basically.
Martijn:
I liked it too much. I I never did a PhD. I never did a research master. I I shut down all those plans, and I, so I I started as a p a PR intern, then I was a PR manager at, this was both at the local distributor and marketing partner for Capcom. So I worked on, some of the Streetfighter games.
Martijn:
I worked on, the god. What was it called? They had a jetpack game at some point. It wasn't really well received. It was like dark dark dark void, I think it was called.
Martijn:
It was, it was a nice game. It wasn't very well received. And from then, I was a a I went on to become a freelance PR manager because I figured being a PR manager for CAPCOM is nice, but it's you know, you don't have to work very hard because all of the press back then, it was still all about the press. They'll find you. You don't really have to do anything.
Martijn:
And I figured all of the indies are in much more more trouble. Like, they need much more help reaching an audience, reaching the press. So I was a PR freelancer for 4 years,
Kevin:
and I joined
Martijn:
a bigger PR firm. And then I realized that, okay. So the thing I liked about being a PR freelancer and figuring everything out myself wasn't really so much the PR part. It was the the entrepreneurial part. So I figured, okay.
Martijn:
I wanna do more with that, but no one is going to hire me for a more business oriented or managerial position just on the fact that I was a freelancer for a couple years, and I figured some things out for myself. So I decided, okay. I'm gonna do it right. I'm going to enroll in an MBA program in the Netherlands in one of the top schools. I wanna know more about how it actually works at least in theory, and for the for the more corporate companies just so I know and I have the background of puzzling things together for, for game industry companies.
Martijn:
So then I also stopped working as a PR manager. I joined Kueckenbacher, which is a, video game art gallery. So they make high end art prints, museum grade art prints, and and coffee table books of official video game art, which is very cool.
Kevin:
Wow.
Martijn:
And, and I was doing that in parallel with my my MBA. So everything I learned in the MBA, we managed to implement parts of that at Kuchenbecker as well. After that, I was a business development manager at Utomic, which was the Netflix for games before Netflix became the Netflix for games. It was a a subscription service. So I my job was to, sign partners to to broaden the the public, broaden the audience, and reach more people.
Martijn:
Then at the start of the pandemic, I was outside of the games industry for a little bit because I couldn't really find a job that I really wanted to do in the games industry. Especially in the Netherlands, the industry is tiny. And, I have a girlfriend and a daughter, so I didn't really feel like uprooting everything just to work somewhere else. And I'm now I'm especially glad I didn't because chances are I would have been part of the people that got fired just by by the mathematical odds of how many people got fired, and then I would have been stuck somewhere else. So I'm I'm glad I didn't do that.
Martijn:
So I was outside of the games industry for for about a year. Didn't love it. There's there's something about the games industry, whether it's the passion or the people, it's it's like nothing else I've seen. So I came back, and I figured if I'm going to be working in the games industry again, why not do it on my own terms? Because at that point, I had a lot of experience in a lot of different, roles, and I had an MBA.
Martijn:
So I had all of the parts of okay. So now I can see the bigger picture. I've seen things that work, things that don't work. Now I can help companies put that picture together for for those that really want to create something better, create a great company that's, you know, gets great results, is great to work at, and it's just a better environment all around. And so I started doing that, and that was two and a half years ago.
Martijn:
I've I've changed some of my positioning. First idea was I'm gonna be a strategy consultant, but everyone is a strategy consultant. And the question is also, what is strategy and what does that do? Now it's much more practical. So I call myself a video game business coach, and what I do is really I help companies implement systems, processes, structures, and habits for them to just run the business in a much more, well, yeah, a much easier way.
Martijn:
You know, not a lot of overhead. Everything is super practical. No no 7 page strategy documents that will help you map out the environment for years. No. No.
Martijn:
No. It's just super practical, small to move in business size. You can use it every day, and it's just less hassle, and you get better results.
Kevin:
So what, so many things to unpack there. What would you say are usually the first things that you see that people are doing well already? Just to to highlight something that people probably would do Yeah. Need to do more of.
Martijn:
Yeah. So the thing I see is companies usually professionalize from the inside out. So the first thing they professionalize is just how the game is made. So they usually, it's on the tech side. It's on development side.
Martijn:
Then the layer beyond that is production. So they get producers in. They they professionalize all of the flows and all of the processes that allow producers to really structure the work and and get people to create more, create more efficiently, you know, get better results in that area. Then beyond that, usually, they get some HR processes in place. You know, they'll they'll get an HR manager.
Martijn:
They'll get some some people processes done. But beyond that, like, the it's rare for people to really get to the outer shell of just the the the meta of running a company and sort of organizational design. You know, how do we set goals for the whole company and not just for the game? How do we structure our core processes that go beyond just the development of the game? And so that's where things get a little bit wonky, and that's where I come in to help.
Martijn:
But, usually, the how they structure the game, like, all of the things that you need just to operate on a daily basis, that's usually pretty well taken care of.
Kevin:
Okay. And that brings me to the follow-up question. Right? What what do you see that people might want to put a little bit more attention towards to
Martijn:
Yeah. The way I see it is there's, there's a couple of things you wanna do. Well, first of all, your company is more than your game. And so one of the first things I usually ask people, and this is companies that have been around for for a little bit longer are usually better at this, but especially indies or companies that have been around on for a couple years. You know?
Martijn:
Mhmm. What are you doing to not just make sure that the game is developed and and published and and, launched on time, but also what are you how are you keeping track of all the other business processes that are going on? How do you make sure that you run not just your game development team, but the whole company in a way that makes sense and that is, well, these are the 3 things, focused, aligned, and that people are accountable. Those are the 3 things that if you get them right, if you get them embedded in systems, processes, structures, then you can just keep going forever.
Kevin:
So thinking about the other areas, what what metrics do you usually think people would need to put into place? Or what are they not seeing? What are the areas maybe put in a blind spot because they're so passionate about the medium itself?
Martijn:
Yeah.
Kevin:
And what areas do you see are not being measured, and what areas are maybe a little bit of a blind spot for them?
Martijn:
Yeah. Yeah. So, actually, I do help clients figure out, like, a dashboard of basic KPIs for them to measure the the progress of the business. But I would say that the core issue isn't even so much in what you're measuring. It's just about how you, how you think about the business.
Martijn:
So one of the things that I see that's really just starting from the top is focus is a big thing. Where is your company going? Where do you wanna be in 5 to 10 years? Usually, that's not very well thought out. And if it is, it's not documented anywhere.
Martijn:
So everyone in that company either has no idea where the company is going and how they're contributing, or they have their own idea. And if the idea is different on where the company is going, then that makes every conversation more difficult because everyone thinks the company is pointing in a different direction. So you wanna have make sure that you have a clear definition of where are we going in the long term. And in the shorter term, what are the main things that need to get done this year? And that goes beyond your sprint.
Martijn:
That goes beyond your milestones. That that's just on a company level, like, high level. What needs to get done this year for us to make meaningful progress towards our long term goals? That's where it starts. And a lot of companies don't really have that nailed down to the level that I would like to see it.
Martijn:
Like, there's usually too much wiggle room. And if you have too much wiggle room on your goals, then your alignment, is lower. Because if you have wiggle room in your goals, then people pick and choose what what they want to contribute to and what they want to do. And then you could what you often see is, especially if departments have, very clear goals on the task level, they start moving in their own direction or they start siloing off. And then you get, you know, one team maybe that contributed to the overall goals, but a couple of others were just working on their own things or they even claimed like, no.
Martijn:
No. We cannot do that because we have our own deliverables. And so your your company is not aligned. And that slowly saps energy and money, of course, because everyone who works on something that's not part of the company goals is just burning money. And so that takes away from your overall efficiency and effectiveness.
Kevin:
And and who do you think should be involved and and responsible in in creating an overall alignment? Because there's different approaches to this. Right? What what do you think and what you see is the most effective approach to to do this?
Martijn:
Yeah. So usually, it's a combination of top down and bottom up. So one thing that I do believe in is, especially in smaller companies, you see that more directly. The way the the top managers act is the way the rest of the company acts because that's what is shown as, you know, this is the the behavior that gets rewarded or at the very least not punished. Yeah.
Martijn:
And so the easiest way in for me is usually also to start with the top management. So I work with the CEO and the c suite. Depending on the company, they may have different titles, but I work with the top management team because that's where most of the the power is to actually change things. And the way I want to get the bottom up is I ask them usually to get input from the rest of the team on what they also feel should be the next the next steps or the next goals just based on the well, their experience in the trenches. And then it becomes a combination of what are we working on right now that we want to continue, And also from the management perspective, what are the strategic priorities?
Martijn:
Where do we want to go that we're not at right now?
Kevin:
Yeah, I think, one of the challenges that I see, that that arises for me as you're saying this, how how do the peoples in the top management navigate that it's not just that they're, you know, they're going on a trip and they're making a big strategy and then they're placing it on top of the rest of the company, and nothing gets done, and it just falls apart. How are you navigating the situation where the the the values and the core identity of of a company is kind of aligned on a broad spectrum. And you you addressed a little bit, okay, bottom up and and bottom up and top down, but what are maybe the mechanisms that allow for that to happen? Because it's it's difficult enough to make a game. Right?
Kevin:
So I'm I'm just wondering what are what are the most efficient ways to put that into place without, without it becoming another slave worker company or without it, being yeah.
Martijn:
Yeah. You mentioned core values and and company culture, and that's a big aspect of that. That's also a part of what I do sort of part of my standard package. So one of the things you have to do is figure out what is my company culture, what are the things we feel is important or are important, that is a very important guiding framework, and that helps you to keep people accountable, including yourself. So if you're not as a so if you're the CEO and you come up with a bunch of ridiculous core values that are just, you know, aspirational only, then other people can hold you accountable as well.
Martijn:
So the idea is everyone holds each other accountable for the core values, and so that helps as an equalizing framework. So everyone should should hold to those values. The other thing is one of the most important feedback mechanisms that I found, and that are that I at least have not seen as much in the companies I've worked for is 1 to 1 conversations. Not 1 to 1 conversations where the manager, checks the work of the employee, but 1 to 1 conversations where you really figure out what is the employee what are their goals? What do they want to achieve?
Martijn:
How can you support them doing that? What do they see in the company that could be improved? Because a lot of times, they see things that you as a manager are just too far removed from. So you need to get those, those data points so that you can start to see the pattern. If one person says something, maybe it's not a thing.
Martijn:
But if 3 people say they've seen an issue, probably you should be taking that into account and discuss that on a higher level of how you can solve that. And the last one is you want to collect feedback for yourself. Because if you can model the asking explicitly asking for feedback and taking that feedback with you, that makes it a lot easier when it comes time to give other people feedback. Because now they've seen that, oh, management is not excluded from getting feedback, and actually, they take it into account. So, apparently, one of the things we do here at this company is we give each other feedback, and we use that to get better.
Kevin:
Okay. That that requires a certain kind of either leadership style, but also a certain kind of, way of operating in the interpersonal realm. Right? Is this something that you're also working on, or is this something that you're you're directing? Or how how is this being developed and fostered within, companies?
Martijn:
Yeah. Yeah. So the way I do it is, one, is very practical. I just give them the templates for this is the type of meeting that you should be holding with the management team. This is the template for how you can run your one to ones.
Martijn:
So that's super practical. Even if they just put that in their calendars and have those conversations, over time, that's going to engrain and and sort of, carve out a path where that just becomes a new normal. That's one part, super practical. The other part is I work with the management team to a lesser extent, but I do that as well, just on getting them to be more aware of how they show up as leaders and how they can tweak some of the the lesser parts and and stay aware of how how they show up and how they can, how they can improve that. Well,
Kevin:
it's a good segue to move into leadership, and leadership as a topic, right? What are your views on leadership and and in what foundation do they also lie? As often transpires, I'm I'm a big science person. And so I'm I'm always trying to kind of look at. And I I realized, you know, you potentially have been pursuing a peach PhD that you didn't go along with, but that there's some interest in scientific literature for you as well.
Kevin:
So I'm I'm just wondering, what is your concept of leadership first? And then a follow-up question if we can keep it, and one would be, what do you think are industry specific qualities for both businesses and leaders?
Martijn:
Oh, that's a good question. What is my definition of leadership? One definition that I recently read, and I forget exactly where I read this, and someone then within the span of a week also told me about it is, leadership is the the capacity to convince people to pursue a common goal, something like that. And I think I think that really captures what leadership to me is about. It's not about giving orders.
Martijn:
It's not about always making the right decisions. It's not about making sure that people like, it's not about, what's the word I'm looking for? It's not about coercion to me. It's not about, you know, you work here now. This is your job.
Martijn:
Just do it. And if not, then so help me god. So I really feel like if you can get people motivated toward you know, working towards a goal that you've set, if you can make that goal vivid enough and interesting enough, then people will also give you the best of what they have because it's a shared goal. It's not something they're doing for you. It's something they're doing because they believe in it.
Martijn:
And so I think that that description of leadership, that definition is the basis for everything that then becomes your your job as a as a leader in a company with all the more practical aspects and all the tricky parts of, you know, getting all the moving parts of a business aligned with each other. But I think that's the basis. That should be your goal.
Kevin:
Nice. Nice. What comes to mind for me, and this is something I've thought about a lot obviously, would be if you're thinking about an orchestra. Mhmm. The the common goal would be to play the music, but, the director of the orchestra is allowing every single one to come in at the right place to conduct to play the music.
Kevin:
Yeah. And so he's kind of, managing the system by up and down regulating different aspects of the business. And, so for me as as like an a storytelling and and like a vision of what is good leadership for me, it's the director because he's not necessarily playing any music, but he's making the music come alive by making sure that he's operating within the realm to create the goal of playing the performance of music.
Martijn:
That's great.
Kevin:
I love that. Yeah. So that's that's, just a little thing that I've been looking at. And it it just got reconfirmed by the way that you talked about leadership while you're influencing this in a way. Right?
Kevin:
So that's that's super cool. I really love that. So it's the first time I'm sharing this. But, yeah, it's I love I love that concept, and and I think it's definitely where we need to go. Because, the the orchestrator, he or she, they they listen to the nuances.
Kevin:
And I think one of the good aspects would be to listen and be very attentive and understand what the the values and and the the quality of the, experience of the people playing the instruments. What do they want? How do they want to be portrayed? How do they want to create their art piece within it? And sometimes that's a joint piece and sometimes there's a solo, right?
Kevin:
So there's a little bit of a very interesting analogy that helps you wrap your, your brain around that. What are what are would you say the an an interesting or a very industry specific element of both business and leadership that isn't you haven't seen in other other types of businesses? Like, are there any key challenges or things that they need to look at that are not present in other business types? Potentially, some alignment with other creative works, but Yeah. Is there anything?
Martijn:
So you mean what's specific about video games that's not like, that doesn't show up? Honestly, and, like, people don't wanna hear this, there's not a whole lot that is different about running a games business than than there is about running a different business. Things get specific on a product or service level, But running a company and setting up the meta structure for, you know, guiding that into, into the right patterns and, you know, conducting the orchestra, Is it like you could run an orchestra with people just playing kazoos? You would still need to have the same skills. Like, it's the same for businesses.
Martijn:
Like, the things I help my, my clients with are principles that have been figured out 50 years ago by people looking at completely different industries. It requires very little tweaking to adapt it to the games industry. The things that I tweak are to make it extremely practical because people making games tend to be at least the companies I work with, right, they're usually founder led. They started the company because they wanted to make something cool. They don't wanna be tied down in managerial, like, sheets or whatever.
Martijn:
So so I keep it super practical, just habits mostly with a couple of templates so they can spend then the rest of their time going back and doing the things that they like to do. Like on the KPI level, if you're looking at dashboards, there there's a couple of things that are specific to, I would say, either the creative or the software industry. But on the general level, it's it's it's you're just running a company. I hate to say it. Like, you're not special.
Martijn:
You're just running a company. It's just a company that happens to make games. Yeah.
Kevin:
I I think you're right there. One one aspect where I'm not not quite sure if I have that pinpoint ready, but what I'm seeing is also that there is a a different layer of unpredictability that maybe are not as present with other mediums of creation, where there is different a lot of complexity of components to make a good game. And I guess it ties it ties into a little bit also the alignment of values and goals in a way that's sometimes not happening and that that causes a lot of issues in the way that that is orchestrated. To beat that yeah. Go ahead.
Martijn:
No. I was I was just gonna say that so that is part of the the development cycle Mhmm. And the the chaotic environment that we're in. But those are just inputs that you take into a case of what choices do we make. The way you run it is still the same.
Kevin:
So if you
Martijn:
know that superanda. If you know that there's a lot of, unpredictability in your game dev cycle, then you're just building more margin, and and that actually already happens at the producer level. So Mhmm. Ideally, like, that doesn't even show up as as something in the, in the management level. That's just part and parcel of how we do things.
Kevin:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Does it yeah. So it's it's I guess it's managing VUCA no matter which direction you're going, it's just a different level of of VUCA that you're looking in and addressing.
Kevin:
And it ties it ties back into, again, core values, core concepts, and and I guess where where it doesn't go well is exactly where the there's a misalignment and miscommunication, and so the the deadlines are getting stretched or the the expectations are not being met because of a more interpersonal problematic, situation rather than a business perspective is what I'm hearing you say. Is that correct?
Martijn:
It actually, now that you say that, so one interesting aspect that probably does touch on all of this is Crunch, which I've actually used in a in a couple of my talks as an example of, you know, Crunch just ties into it's sort of seen as, you know, this is just how games work. It's just, you know, development takes a certain amount of time, and then you hit a deadline, and then everyone has to crunch. And are companies that take this for granted, and there are companies that are rallying against it. But the thing is it all comes down to what is what are your core priorities as a company, and who do you serve? Do you serve the shareholders that, you know, want to see that game launch at that specific time, and you have to make sure that you you get that within the budget and within Like, there's there's so many different ways of solving it, and Crunch has just become the default because it's it's part of our history.
Martijn:
It's part of the the bigger companies that run things that way, but it doesn't have to be. And in that sense, it's also not something inherent in the games industry. It's just something that we've chosen to do, all of us, explicitly or implicitly, and we have the power to change that if we just make different decisions.
Kevin:
Yeah. I guess to that note, what what I see from a psychological perspective there is that I think one of the differences that are maybe not not quite as as similar to other industries is that there's a, majority of people working in games are massively intrinsically motivated. And so they're also willing. They're willing to do that. And they're willing to adapt it because they're so passionate and so driven to be part of this huge medium, this body of work, where if you're working in a different industry and you're just not as passionate because you kind of got slid into that environment and, you know, you might not be interested in wind turbines or, you know, doing some other things.
Kevin:
You're maybe not as passionate. And so when when things get going, you're more likely to say, well, no. I'm not gonna do that. So bugger off kind of thing. Right?
Kevin:
Yeah. Let's, let's let's maybe talk a little bit about personality types in games just just for the sake of it, for fun, and and what what that affects in the way that you're orchestrating business, and what challenges you see in implementing things that you know is working on a global scale, but, is is maybe slightly different to implement.
Martijn:
Yeah. So what I see personality type wise is because it's such an engineering heavy environment, I see a lot of those, tendencies show up on the management level as well. So what I see is people tend to want to over engineer certain things. So a a lot of the things I give them are super simple tools and frameworks. Tools and frameworks that really start to shine when you discuss them as a team, when you use them as a team.
Martijn:
That means that when I give it to them out of the box, not everything has a super clear, like, do this first, then this, then this, and this, and then this will be the outcome, and this is what's gonna happen. So I'll be like, well so for example, take Rocks. Rocks are the the framework I use to help them set quarterly goals. Mhmm. But there's not a set scope for that or, like, how do you define it?
Martijn:
Like, that's up to you, and that's something you're gonna figure out over time. But the first time, what happens almost always is he was like, well, how do I know when something's a rock? How do I know when it's a to do? It's like, I don't know. We can talk about it, and I'm happy to give you my perspective, but ultimately, it's up to you.
Martijn:
Like, what do you think you can do within this domain of your company over the next 90 days? And so it's it's hard to be because it's sort of a soft skill of, like, how do I scope this? Would then we know how does this relate to our milestones. It's it's a different thing that they're not used to. And then another thing I've run into a couple of times is people want to overengineer the solutions.
Martijn:
They're like, okay. So we have this, but can we just make a system where the rocks flow into our to dos, into our models? It's like, you can, but then you're creating a system that will drive your process as opposed to you driving the process and using the tools just as tools. Like, you don't want or at least in my perspective on that level, I would rather not have a system dictate how everything works. I would rather have looser systems that you can actually drive yourself.
Martijn:
Like, yeah. But it would be so much easier. Like, no. You think it would be easier, but then whenever something somewhere breaks because it's all in a soft skill level, now you have to change all of your systems and then figure out where in the system something is broken and gone wrong. It's like, you don't want this.
Martijn:
Trust me. Yes. You're an engineer. I get that's how your mind works, but you don't want this on the level of your your entire business.
Kevin:
Nice. Nice. What comes to mind is, I I saw the story of a father building a bridge with Lego, with with his son. And, they've they've missed a step, and so there was an instability that was caused with the bridge. And so he had this idea of how to fix it.
Kevin:
I need to add all of these different different components, and then, it it kind of makes it more stable. And now we can't do this and his, his son or daughter, I don't remember who it was, but went and just removed the stone and said, doesn't this fix it, dad? And then it just stabled and and, the person wrote about this in a way where he's like, hey. Wow. Yes, it's right.
Kevin:
Why do I always keep? And then he started to have experiments with all sorts of different engineers and they all started adding things. Yeah. Nobody, nobody took something away. So I think one of the key takeaways is how can your engineering be even more effective by removing things rather than adding things?
Martijn:
And that's a super difficult, problem because I think it's a well documented psychological fact that people tend to solve problems by adding. It's so much more difficult to solve problems. Sometimes it's actually easier to solve problems by taking away. It's just that your mind doesn't really go there first. So it's hard to change that to, can we make this simpler?
Martijn:
Can we take things away? It's, it's extremely difficult.
Kevin:
Yeah. And sometimes you're also interacting with with the very slow part of your brain. Right? The slow mechanisms, the rationality, and then it's very difficult to see something in action. So you're thinking about all these different solutions that, if you have a way to interacting with it in a more, more testing lean way, right?
Kevin:
If you have something that you can really drive to the nuts, it very quickly transpires. Where is the system really broken? Is are you focusing on this little one little line? Or are you, focusing on the whole picture and there's actually a problem in the way that the whole thing has been designed, right? Yeah.
Kevin:
So I like that. I like that a lot. I think we could we could again beat this analogy to death, by by looking at it from different angles, and it might hold true. But I'm hearing you say, in a way you're helping with identity self discovery for companies, right? That's like, there's something some sort of who is this person that is the company.
Kevin:
Yes. Like, you're almost personifying this, you're almost personifying this individual that is the the game studio, the game company, the publisher, whatever. And then you're giving that values. And then it makes it easier to operate, I think. Maybe you should even give it a name, have a little mascot that represents it or something.
Kevin:
Yeah.
Martijn:
No. No. That's exactly it. So one quote I use a lot in my work is it's a quote from Dolly Parton, which is find out who you are and do it on purpose. Nice.
Martijn:
And that's exactly what it is. That's exactly what I do, but on a company level. So who who are you as a company? Where do you wanna go? How do you want show up in the world?
Martijn:
What do you think is important? How do you want to work as a team? Because you're already doing all of that. But if you haven't thought about it, it's not gonna be the you're not gonna be the version of yourself that you wanna be. So if you can figure out who you want to be, then you can actually start doing that and start enforcing that or at least not enforcing so much as, empowering people to act in that way and show up in that way so you can be the best version of yourself of that you want to be.
Kevin:
Martijn, I'm I'm wondering what would be a good question for me to ask that would give the industry the most value?
Martijn:
That's a very good question.
Kevin:
Well, this is my business. I'm in the business question. So here we go. Yes.
Martijn:
So I'm I'm I'm struggling with defining the exact question, but the first thing my mind went to was, so the way I define my work is I help people figure out how they want to play the long term game, the long game. Mhmm. I don't believe in all those get rich quick schemes. Yes. You can make money there, but it's for most people, it's not really very fulfilling, endeavor.
Martijn:
So all of my things are how do you lay the foundations for long term success, long term happiness even, and then it gets a little bit fuzzy and and warm and and wonky. So I try to stay away from there, as much as I can. But what it does come down to is how do you want to live and what do you want to leave behind also in a sense. So it is, you know, everything you do now is just the first part of, you know, at least some part of a legacy that you're you're going to leave behind. And I think if you do things with that end in mind, where do I want to end up?
Martijn:
Like, what kind of company do I want to have run years from now? Like, how do I want my employees to talk about me years after they've stopped working there? Those are, like, the long term questions that are implicit in all of the work I do. So, yeah, maybe the question could be like, what do you want to leave behind? Like, why just maybe just the why question at the core of it.
Martijn:
Like, why are you doing this? Why does this matter you?
Kevin:
Nice. I mean, if you had a a piece of paper and you're listening or watching, it'd be a good time to pause it and and maybe, just write down a couple of words that come to mind or something like that. I think there's a golden nugget there for sure. Reminds me of Simon Sinek's work as well at the Golden Circle. So that's that's very cool.
Kevin:
I I enjoyed that a lot. How, what other questions could people ask themselves that would help identify this?
Martijn:
Help identify their why. Mhmm. Why they're doing it? So it's a lot of different questions. So the way I incorporate this into my work is I try to give people tools as well for self reflection and through self reflection to build self awareness.
Martijn:
Mhmm. And it's not even so much about the specific questions that you ask. It's just about sitting with yourself and reflecting on even just something as simple as how was my week? What gave me energy? What didn't give me energy?
Martijn:
Did I make progress on the goals that I wanted to wanted to reach? If not, does that say something about my productivity or the way I spend my time, or does it say something about my, have you said, my commitment to those goals? Maybe the goals should change. And so it starts with just looking at really looking at what is there and looking not just at the hard the hard elements, but also the softer elements of, you know, how am I showing up? Like, what is my energy?
Martijn:
What is my, how am I feeling about this? Looking at that, and then just answering whatever comes up and being there for whatever comes up, that is how you start figuring out that why more than any specific questions that you can ask.
Kevin:
Nice. I hear a potential product or service coming up where it is just a a booklet of identify identify your business persona or something like that.
Martijn:
Something like that.
Kevin:
That'd be cool. Yeah. Yeah. I would definitely use that for sure. But then where should we go with this conversation?
Kevin:
There's, I mean, there's so many avenues that I would like to pursue with you, but I'm I'm also aware that we only have limited time and, you know, there might be a a different conversation here. But, what what other conversations do you think would be interesting for people that that maybe are not as obvious, like looking at your business and values?
Martijn:
That's a very good question. I mean, I have my own my own talking points, of course, but I didn't wanna turn this into a into an advertisement for for my own services. No. So the thing that I would encourage people to do is and and that's actually what started me on my own trip is I am continually surprised that everyone, not everyone. I don't want to general overgeneralize, but most people are trying to reinvent the wheel at every single turn, and I that's something I never really understood.
Martijn:
So I I came into it. It's like, I never understood why are people, you know, trying to figure out for themselves what works in PR when I was doing PR. Why are people trying to figure out what works in business for themselves when I was looking more at business? Because a lot of the things a lot of the first principles about how these things work, we know, and we've known for a long time. And this comes all the way down to, you know, I I see, for example, when people are raising funds and they're making pitch decks, it's very clear to me that they have never seen even a single pitch deck template that was made by someone who knows what a pitch deck should look like.
Martijn:
And that is insane to me because information is everywhere and so easily accessible. Just do yourself a favor and read up on, like, the most, like, the foundations of whatever it is you're trying to do next, and you're gonna be so much better off than if you're just doing, like, your own version and and seeing how that works out. And so that's it's the same for my business. Right? I so I'm I'm coaching.
Martijn:
Nothing I do, I came up with myself. Nothing. Honestly, it's just the packaging. It's the way I'm structuring it. It's the way I'm making it practical and the way practical and the way I can translate it to the games industry so that people understand it better, and they they feel like they're being heard and they're, it's very cut and clear and cut and dry.
Martijn:
But nothing I do, nothing I help people with is new. It's all I would say most of it is even, like, 20, 30, 40 years old. The information is all out there, and especially now with, AI. If you ask something from chat gpt, especially if it's something as well documented as how does you know, how can I plan my business? How can I set goals for my business?
Martijn:
How do I make a template for an investor pitch? You can get that easily. Just make your own life easier. Do 2 rounds of googling before you start something new. You're gonna you're gonna have a shortcut from compared to if you do everything yourself.
Kevin:
Nice. What what is the medium of games to you? What do you think the purpose of games are?
Martijn:
The purpose of games? I'm not sure games intrinsically have a purpose. I mean, you can use games for a lot of different things. Right? I mean and that's inheriting the fact that it it's a medium.
Martijn:
It's it's a carrier, and you can deal with that what you want. So and that's what I like. So it's super interactive. That's the core of it. That's that's the main thing, and that's what makes it so powerful.
Martijn:
So everything you can think of doing, if you can do it in games and you do it well, it has the potential to be so much more convincing, so much more impactful. And I think that's that's why I got drawn in as a kid. That's why, you know, just the first games I played are like, Space Quest, Commander Keen, and it's just such a different experience from watching TV or, you know, doing something else because you get to inhabit those heroes and those people, and you get to actually be a little bit more of a part of the story that you're experiencing. And you see that in so you see that branching off now in all different sorts of ways. So there's, you know, art projects that are really making it easier to experience certain emotions because it's done through an interactive medium.
Martijn:
There's, things like, mindfulness and meditation that are made more accessible to people because it's been, I don't wanna say gamified because gamification is a very tricky process that has been pretty much ruined by by all of the people that are just slapping points on something and calling it a game. But if you do it well, if you put the game at the core of something, it can be so powerful.
Kevin:
Yeah. For sure. I mean, gamification looks a lot about, on on motivation and how the human beings are being motivated. So it's more a driver in the way that I see the the literature and the research going. And I think what you're referring to is using the medium of game.
Kevin:
So creating a game that allows you to immerse in mindfulness, creating a game that allows you to immerse in a topic or or whatever. Right? You could again I mean, technically, you could create a game how to run a a a proper business. Right? And they would just allow you to interact with a topic or question of choice in a different way.
Kevin:
And so I guess the distinction as you made it is very important to make that it's not, it's not the motivation underlying game mechanics that allow you to have more motivation, which even that could bestercise with the points budgets of leaderboards. That's that's
Martijn:
for sure.
Kevin:
But, but yeah, it's that's that's a really cool point that, the games are allowing you to interact with different areas of existence in a more immersive way that actually allows you to externalize. And I guess this comes into a little bit of my field of domain as well with the the whole flow concept that you're so immersed. You're forgetting the self. You're becoming, one with with the medium, and then returning in a way where where you've been on a journey and, almost like a hero's quest and you come back with all this different knowledge that you just understand in a different way that you didn't do before, because you forgot about yourself in a way. You're still very aware of what is going on in your body and what is happening, but you didn't think about, the the I as in the identification of you with the outside kind of.
Kevin:
Yeah. Yeah. Maybe a complex topic to to to dig a hole in right now at the end of of the podcast. But, Yeah. For sure.
Kevin:
Could we do a little bit of a summary of what you think we have been talking about up until now? That'd be awesome.
Martijn:
Yeah. So the things we've touched on are, I I've shared what I think are the the fundamental aspects of of running a business. So to me, again, that's focus, alignment, and accountability. Those are the things you want to engrain in all different aspects of your business. I've shared that, you know, one of the things businesses should strive to do is look beyond just the game at the core of the company and also pay attention to how do you want to design the company that supports the making of these games.
Kevin:
Mhmm.
Martijn:
You know, it's the the company, let's you make these games. It's not the company is not the byproduct of your game, not not if you want this to be something that that goes on for a long time. We talked about leadership. So how can how can leaders, yeah, how can they how can they run the company? How do they show up?
Martijn:
What tools to an extent they have to to do that and to get the most out of their their company and their teams. And then we dove a little bit into into the why, a little bit into, yeah, the the the purpose of games. So, yeah, broad range of topics.
Kevin:
For sure. For sure. And I guess this is all superficial level. We could even, you know, double click on one of these topics and and really delve into what, what other aspects we could unfold. And this is, where I would I would also like listeners to to write in, comment, whatever, interact with Martijn, just so we can expand, and then maybe let us know what what do you think as a listener, the, the world or the world of games, the whole industry would need to look at, address, talk more about.
Kevin:
Let us, do more conversations around it just to to make sure that we're collaborating on on this immersive approach that we we call games. On that note, what what do you think an individual could do that maybe doesn't have a lot of leverage in their position right now that would still do a little bit of good towards the business or their career or whatever?
Martijn:
You mean, like, the smallest possible action they can take?
Kevin:
If if yeah. If you wanna call that. Or just to give, you know, to give individuals that maybe are not in a leadership position some sort of agency, some sort of thing that they can do to impact something.
Martijn:
Yeah. Yeah. So the to me, that, again, probably comes back to, goal setting. And so then I don't even care as much whether you do either yearly goals or quarterly goals or both, but something that keeps you focused on the long term, something that keeps you on, like, okay. So what are what should my priorities be?
Martijn:
Because it's so easy to get sucked up in the day to day, especially if you're not in a, well, leadership position as well. But if you are not in leadership position, you are sandwiched, and you're gonna get information from all sides, and you're gonna be run by everyone else if you're not careful. So setting those goals, and that lets you set your own priorities. And that makes it so much easier to, to spend your time in ways that actually move the needle rather than just putting out fires that, you know, were started by someone else, maybe would have gone out on their own. And that's something everyone can do, and that's, that's actually how I started as well.
Martijn:
And there's there's one book that's really good for this. It's called Grip by a Dutch guy called Rick Pastore, and it's all about, setting your own goals and setting your own your own productivity and efficiency. And so setting those goals and just the action of thinking about them and being more, more conscious about how you spend your time and what you wanna work towards, I think that is one of the highest impact things that people can do even if it doesn't yield immediate results.
Kevin:
Nice. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being on the show. I wanna be respectful of your time and the listeners as well. You listener, thank you again for taking the time to watch and listen to the show.
Kevin:
What do you wanna tell people? Where can they find you? How can they get in touch?
Martijn:
Yeah. Absolutely. So they can find me on LinkedIn and on my website, which is just my full name dot com. And if they want to get more of an idea of the things that I help people with and some of the tools and the the frameworks, they can subscribe to my newsletter, which is free for everyone, and and, yeah, check out how they how they feel about what happens in my world.
Kevin:
Alright. Thank you so much. Go check him out, and, have a wonderful rest of your day.
GameWell:
Thanks for checking out this episode of GameWell, the podcast to a thriving future in games. Make sure to like, comment, and subscribe so that you never miss an episode.
