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Stories of veteran service and sacrifice straight from the people driving today’s most important veterans causes and veterans organizations around the world. The show shines a spotlight on their inspiring projects making a real difference for veterans and their families, and along the way we'll hear the stories that drive them to do their best every day as they work to support veterans and their memory.
00:00:06:02 - 00:00:29:18
Speaker 1
Hey, it's Matthew Cudmore and welcome to Story Behind the Stone. Today we're joined by Dr. Geoffrey Bird, a professor at Royal Roads University in British Columbia. Dr. Bird has over 30 years of experience in education and tourism, sustainability and heritage through roles with the provincial and federal governments, as an entrepreneur, and as a consultant, as a naval officer, and as a heritage interpreter at the Canadian National Memorial at Vimy Ridge in France.
00:00:29:20 - 00:00:52:10
Speaker 1
Joining us is. Dr. Bird shares his insights on the power of place at sites like Vimy Ridge and Juno Beach, and his work with the War Heritage Research Initiative that has produced over 30 documentaries and various commemorative projects. Dr. Bird, thank you for joining the show and to our listeners, thanks for tuning in.
00:00:52:12 - 00:01:14:11
Speaker 1
Welcome to the show where we talk service, sacrifice and stories connecting you to the past and the most interesting people in the field of veteran causes and commemoration. My name is Ryan, along with co-host Matthew, and we are with Memory Anchor, a company committed to using technology for good as we change the way the world remembers. Today we're talking with Dr. Geoff Bird and Dr. Bird.
00:01:14:11 - 00:01:15:00
Speaker 1
Welcome to the.
00:01:15:00 - 00:01:19:04
Speaker 2
Show. Thank you for having me. Ryan and Matthew, if you were at a loud.
00:01:19:04 - 00:01:24:13
Speaker 3
Dinner party and you had someone turn to you and say, Geoff, what is it that you do?
00:01:24:15 - 00:01:46:07
Speaker 2
How would you answer that question? I'm a professor, which probably doesn't answer the question at all. What do you do? You know, I teach and, part of remembrance. And our topic today is about learning. You know, as we move on in time, as the, the generation of witnesses pass on, say, for example, with the Second World War, remembrance becomes an activity of learning.
00:01:46:09 - 00:01:48:00
Speaker 2
And so that's what I engage in.
00:01:48:00 - 00:01:53:18
Speaker 3
What is it that you love most about your job? I mean, your your calling. Maybe it's more than just a job.
00:01:53:21 - 00:02:14:15
Speaker 2
Yes, it is a calling. And I think there is kind of a through line through the journey over the past, say, 35 years. I actually did start off in the Navy Reserve, as, running as an officer, a ship's officer. And, that was an experience that went for eight years while I was at university. And, I stepped in.
00:02:14:15 - 00:02:49:16
Speaker 2
So that was basically my beginning in public service. So the entire journey of my career has been in public service in various ways. My role has evolved over those, over those essentially four decades from being involved with serving the country in, in uniform to, serving in the provincial government and then serving overseas in different agencies to I work in poverty alleviation in Vietnam, Malaysia, and then coming back and starting off, at Capilano College in, in North Vancouver, then now at Railroad University, where I've been since 2008.
00:02:49:16 - 00:03:18:00
Speaker 2
So the journey of public service has been kind of the through line of my journey. And, certainly that is a calling for me is to engage in making our communities better. And, a lot of different ways. My main push is, of course, around what I call remembering, well, this idea that when we're engaged in remembrance and commemoration work, it's not simply about a two minute silence, you know, although those moments are very important.
00:03:18:02 - 00:03:43:12
Speaker 2
But it's about, you know, what is it that we can do to make the world a better place through the inspiration of these experiences? When we learn about the past, and they can be sad remembrances as well as things that are heroic and that demonstrates dollar courage. But the all of these things may call on us in this today's world to step forward and take responsibility.
00:03:43:12 - 00:03:46:03
Speaker 2
And so that's why I've engaged in public service.
00:03:46:04 - 00:03:55:04
Speaker 1
What does remembrance or the act of just looking at someone's story or remembering an aspect of our history? What does that offer people?
00:03:55:04 - 00:04:15:15
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's a good question. And it evolves over time because generations change. So, you know, we can look at remembrances from two different perspectives. There's the collective remembering that we engage in as a community, as a nation. November 11th, we all go down to the cenotaph in our in our communities, and we engage in these rituals that are important.
00:04:15:15 - 00:04:35:08
Speaker 2
And we all stand in silence. We all sing a hymn, national anthem, and there's a sense of kind of common, a common experience, cultural memory. And that's the work I do, is I really step into that, that realm of how we use the past in the present and so that's one form of remembrance. Collectively, we're coming together.
00:04:35:08 - 00:04:56:08
Speaker 2
The other part is our own personal stories, our our own families, our own, maybe smaller communities. Maybe we're part of a regiment, and maybe we're part of a community where a lot of people went off to serve. We may know friends who are serving now. So those kinds of immediate personal experiences is the other aspect of remembrance.
00:04:56:10 - 00:05:19:20
Speaker 2
What links the two are stories. Stories are so central to finding us and to creating our sense of identity, not just as a nation, the national identity, but also as individuals. So remembrance calls on us to learn about these stories of the past. It could be about certain a certain individual or a certain battle or anything like that.
00:05:19:20 - 00:05:39:05
Speaker 2
And to draw a meaning from it. And then we use those, those stories in the present. And I would say that most of the time we can use those stories in a very positive way. Of course, there's others that would me argue that say, okay, well, some of these stories you're reframing in such a way, it comes across as propaganda, you know.
00:05:39:05 - 00:06:02:12
Speaker 2
And so, of course, there's that element that we always have to think about. I think we can all speak to stories in our own families that are linked to or heritage in some way that inspire us. So my great Uncle Dan, Dan Costly, was 17 years old when he was killed in the battle of the Somme.
00:06:02:14 - 00:06:23:09
Speaker 2
He was with the, the Middlesex Regiment. And, I have the his his few letters that he sent home. So he must have joined up when he was 16 to go through basic training before he had it over. Of course, he lied about his age. He was actually told to leave. Leave the recruitment center, go around the block, come back in and say he was 18.
00:06:23:11 - 00:06:46:15
Speaker 2
And, and so these are the this is the mythology that I grew up with, right? My granny told me that stories of her brother that really stuck with me, that sense of going off. Why did he go off? Well, his two brothers were in the service, his older brothers, and he wanted to be with them. You know, that's that's a powerful story about families staying together and looking after each other.
00:06:46:17 - 00:07:20:17
Speaker 2
And so you went those stories still, you know, in my family have meaning. And I think for all of us, we have those important stories. So telling the stories, telling the stories in ways that are new is important and that it was that a link people. And I think to this is where memory comes into play. And sometimes we can find ourselves when we talk about history, and it's something that we all perhaps enjoy reading about, but we can get lost in the numbers and specific technical details, which for, for some of us is very important.
00:07:20:19 - 00:07:36:11
Speaker 2
For others, they're not really leaning on those specific details as a way to remember. They want to know the person, they want to know where they were from, what their age, where they married, what their story is. And that, I think, is where the power of remembrance can be to.
00:07:36:11 - 00:07:49:14
Speaker 1
I think it's that ability to connect with the story becomes really important. I hear you talking about story in your field and the importance of connecting that memory. What is the biggest challenge that you experience in your field?
00:07:49:14 - 00:08:17:19
Speaker 2
The work I do when I make a film, it's about a site of memory and the story it tells. So when you think, okay, you know, stories rest with people, right? And as people are passing on, where do we look to, to memorialize, this, this history, these stories, and often they're anchored. It's interesting, you know, when you when you talk to people about, you know, some time in history and they and you know, let's say, oh, Egyptian pyramids, you know, they go to I'd like to go there some time.
00:08:17:21 - 00:08:50:13
Speaker 2
What, what their meaning is I want to travel to that spot and stand there because in time and space we cannot travel through time. But we can go to the space where time occurred, where that history occurred. And that's the closest point we can get to, to that other time. And so when we stand up to me, Rich, where once I was a guide or we stand on some other battlefield, there is a, a resonance there that you don't get when you're standing, you know, in your hometown in Canada, by the cenotaph.
00:08:50:13 - 00:09:13:03
Speaker 2
Right. Which might be a beautiful thing and it might be very powerful, but standing on the battlefield, maybe there's some undulation of the ground where shells once went, you know, blew, trenches to pieces, as one finds in places like them. All of a sudden, you layer a story on that and you travel through time like I saw it and engaged in it every day as a guide.
00:09:13:03 - 00:09:36:06
Speaker 2
And I think when I travel to battlefields and I'm, I'm, interpreting these sites, one of the best ways to interpret is to remain silent for a little while, while people kind of gather their thoughts and feel feel the place, you know, in the power place. So I think when I make a film, the challenge is how do I convey the power of being there in the film?
00:09:36:06 - 00:09:52:07
Speaker 2
Sometimes it's more to try to convey it and then just hopefully inspire people to go there, because I don't think I can ever really replace that experience of standing there, feet on the ground or feet on a beat like Juno. You know, that's pretty powerful stuff.
00:09:52:09 - 00:10:02:13
Speaker 1
I'm kind of curious on what your thoughts are on the role of technology now in the present and into the future when it comes to the work you're doing, or in the space of commemoration.
00:10:02:13 - 00:10:25:09
Speaker 2
When you're saying an open field like to the, the eastern flank of the, Normandy beaches where the Canadians and the British landed paratroopers, you know, that was, a chaotic place, on the evening of, early morning of June 6th for the paratroopers. And you're going across open fields when you're driving in that area. And if we ask the question, what happens here?
00:10:25:11 - 00:10:46:14
Speaker 2
You know, it's hard to figure it out in detail as to what happened at a certain crossroads or a certain bridge that is small and a little village. You know, technology enables us to do that. We can see that benefit where, you know, technology can weave into people traveling to sites and to learn the other way. So that's, I think, a really a powerful way.
00:10:46:14 - 00:11:11:03
Speaker 2
It makes us kind of reveal the different layers of stories in places that are off the beaten track or places which are very, you know, well visited, but people are looking for a bigger story, or they're trying to get into maybe a story of one person. And technology enables us to do that. The other way, I think, is for those people that can afford to travel, you know, technology brings brings it to home.
00:11:11:03 - 00:11:36:23
Speaker 2
I think that's a really valuable way to engage people and to, you know, at least create another opportunity to learn about something. You know, I think we're just beginning to get into technology and what can be used. And of course, we can think about simulation where we're walking places or, you know, even video games, I think have there their place in this discussion, but also some ethical issues.
00:11:36:23 - 00:11:54:04
Speaker 2
Definitely. Won't we get into that whole conversation from a remembrance perspective? There's different ways you can look at technology and, you know, is it the utopia that it offers? Is it something that we should be completely pessimistic about? Is it something that we have to be realistic about? It's all through those, right. There's certainly some great things ahead.
00:11:54:04 - 00:12:00:22
Speaker 2
And we also have to realize that it's upon us in a lot of ways. So we better, better keep our eyes open and make the most of it.
00:12:00:22 - 00:12:14:11
Speaker 3
I'd love to go back to your time at Vimy when you were a guide. Were there any bits and pieces or there is about the monument, the memorial or name that you love to draw attention to that you thought hadn't really had the spotlight shone on it?
00:12:14:11 - 00:12:32:19
Speaker 2
I actually like to take people to the marker for the second Canadian Division just down the road from me, you know, because sometimes when you're sitting in the park, you kind of think, okay, this is it. This is the battlefield, when in fact, you know, you're just in the, the, most of the kind of the, the third division's area of attack.
00:12:32:21 - 00:12:50:01
Speaker 2
And then you've got three other divisions to think about, which are kind of outside that zone. We say this is the battlefield, but sometimes it's all the land that could be purchased. It was seen as a representation of the battlefield, not the entire battlefield when I was there was 1990. So there's lots of things happening, lots of moving parts.
00:12:50:01 - 00:13:09:03
Speaker 2
It was, for example, the 50th anniversary of the invasion of France. One day I had a busload of German vets on their way to Paris with their wives. And back in those days, our guide materials were not as good as they are today. Actually, back then we could tell you you know, names and addresses of Canadians at Fort kind of thing, that level of detail on the Canadian side.
00:13:09:03 - 00:13:34:11
Speaker 2
But we had no clue of anything to do with the Germans. I was walking up to the Army Memorial with, German veterans, speaking about this Canadian victory and giving my spiel. It's like you're climbing Mount Everest. Like it's a powerful moment, right? Tears are in people's eyes, right? Even if they have no family connection to the battle or they, you know, earlier in the day, they really had no understanding of what happened.
00:13:34:11 - 00:13:53:13
Speaker 2
But that place has out of sight when you're with German veterans. It was a different setting. And then that same day at the other end of the park, were British veterans on their way to Dunkirk. So it's a World War one battlefields, and we're dealing with World War Two narratives over top, you know, so you get these kind of clashes and moments when you're in a place like semi Rich, a French veteran.
00:13:53:13 - 00:14:10:14
Speaker 2
One day I bumped into and he says, I was here. I was here in 1916, 19, 1561. The French were here, right? Because they were there, of course, for the Canadians were. It was a beautiful sunny day. It's a Sunday. People are walking around the park and he says, I don't see this beautiful Sunday in this grass, you know.
00:14:10:14 - 00:14:19:13
Speaker 2
And I could just see his eyes. They were just in a different place, you know. And I think obviously we lose that veteran voice over time. You learn such details.
00:14:19:15 - 00:14:27:20
Speaker 1
What do you view as some of maybe the ethical concerns that need to be paid attention to when we implement technology or do media with this topic?
00:14:27:21 - 00:14:44:01
Speaker 2
There's two kind of settings you might speak to. At least one would be when you're in the site and you're using technology, another one would be when you're at home. When I was doing my field research in Normandy, we came to a cemetery and I was chatting with a fellow from New Zealand. He was a he was in the military and we're deep in conversation.
00:14:44:01 - 00:15:20:11
Speaker 2
He just said to me, he says, okay, that was a great conversation. You know, hold that thought. I want to be in the cemetery and I just want to be by myself and I want to be quiet. Yeah, it was quite a direct message. And because he wanted to experience that place in a certain way, if we have technology that interferes with the power of place, maybe it's noisy, maybe it's maybe it kind of tries to bring sounds into the context where you are to try to recreate battle noise, and you say you're in a cemetery or something like that, you know, like there's some obvious things, and we call that heritage dissonance, essentially, where
00:15:20:11 - 00:15:51:22
Speaker 2
you have a clash between power of place. It's it's you know, sometimes that that quietness of a place is what makes it so profound. Like if you go to OT where the, Canadians were executed at or at the abbey in their abbey garden nearby. Right. You just hear the sycamore trees, the wind blowing. And that's that's what's powerful is just that, kind of common sound that we share with the those last moments of their lives that technology cannot, take from that.
00:15:52:04 - 00:16:11:04
Speaker 2
Right. It shouldn't. There's a power there to frame the story in a certain way, and it will essentially create how we remember the past. So we don't remember everything about the past. We remember selective stories. Many of us are also aware of a show like Band of Brothers fantastic. And that came right off the heels of Saving Private Ryan.
00:16:11:06 - 00:16:40:13
Speaker 2
And I remember talking to the, Model Commission, the American Balance Commission. They said, you know, after Saving Private Ryan, people were asking, they're saying, are there people actually buried here at the Normandy American Cemetery? And they realized that they needed to have an interpretive center. They needed to have an ability to tell stories so that people understood what was happening in these places over time, with the power of Band of Brothers, there is always that threat that the, the, you know, the medium is the message, you know.
00:16:40:14 - 00:17:12:18
Speaker 2
So the band of brothers is story well told and it almost dominates Normandy. Right. And the Canadian story and British story are really quite far behind. Right. And technology needs to be careful to try to present a range of different stories to build up a full idea of what happened there. You know, just not the great stories, but stories that represented dilemma stories that represent, difficult decisions.
00:17:12:18 - 00:17:39:05
Speaker 2
The least worst decision made issues of collaboration, issues of resistance. I guess what I'm saying is, is that technology from an ethical stance needs to be able to try to present a more, I won't say a balanced view that presents like, well, both sides are right or something. I don't mean that. I mean a range of stories that allow people to connect with the place in different ways, to try to maintain some integrity to the history.
00:17:39:07 - 00:17:40:20
Speaker 2
How is it different visiting.
00:17:40:20 - 00:17:41:23
Speaker 3
A cemetery site.
00:17:42:01 - 00:17:42:16
Speaker 2
With a.
00:17:42:16 - 00:17:49:06
Speaker 3
Veteran versus someone you're doing anthropology ethnography with? The second relation completely different is are there a lot of overlaps?
00:17:49:10 - 00:18:14:12
Speaker 2
When we talked about the Second World War, many veterans, have passed on. I remember this one fellow, a British guy that was in the Royal Royal Marines, and he would just say things out of the blue that just didn't seem to have any connection to what we were talking about. They were obviously, you know, parts of their parts of his, his own experience, which he would finally kind of let out a little bit, but not the entire story.
00:18:14:13 - 00:18:35:07
Speaker 2
And, and those are really quite profound. And I felt that with veterans when they would speak about particular battlefields, you know, cemeteries or cemeteries kind of caused a different kind of reaction, usually a lot of silence, you know, contemplation, reflection, sat on a battlefield with a veteran, you know, can be a different kettle of fish entirely.
00:18:35:08 - 00:19:00:08
Speaker 2
When I find myself with people that are trying to learn about, you know, and of course, that's the generations where we're stepping forward into in the work that, you know, the good educational work you're doing with your technology and that I'm engaged with, with my films, and also when I guide groups to these sites, is I'm trying to convey not just the history of what happened, but trying to reach everyone in the audience.
00:19:00:08 - 00:19:28:01
Speaker 2
Right. Like we talk about universal concepts, you know, like, is there an element that I can speak to that would connect everyone to this particular story? They might understand this idea of friendship, deep friendship. And so part of the storytelling is going to lean in on that, you know, and try to convey what deep friendship looks like. And I think it's this sort of technology can come in to like often with guides, you need props.
00:19:28:02 - 00:19:48:02
Speaker 2
You, you have a big photo book, you pull it out, you say, this is what it looked like back then. We're standing here and this is you can see, what the beach look like. And here it is today we're standing here, you know, if you can pull out a voice, a voice, a veteran, you know, who speaks about his or her moment there, right?
00:19:48:02 - 00:20:10:17
Speaker 2
Those are opportunities we have when we're telling stories to, people that have, only maybe a smattering of knowledge of these places. And we're trying to connect them deeply. You can change people's perspectives when you when you tell good stories over a period of time using the right resources. I think that has consequences on how people live their lives.
00:20:10:17 - 00:20:24:20
Speaker 2
And I think that's something that when people are walking these places, it's like, okay, so what am I doing with my life? So I think those are those are opportunities, like in terms of universal concepts that we can kind of at as we tell our stories, we can we can definitely impact people's lives.
00:20:24:21 - 00:20:40:13
Speaker 1
I know we're coming to the end of the time. I want to keep talking. But really quickly, before we wrap up, I just want to ask, is there anything in particular some exciting projects that you work on that you want people to know? And if people want to learn a little bit more, where can they get Ahold of your work and what's happening for you?
00:20:40:14 - 00:21:00:09
Speaker 2
There's a website, War Heritage Research Initiative. I'm a professor at Royal Roads University. It's a and we made that clear at the beginning of this. But and so I my research is about, I make films and there's about 35 films on there about sites of memory related to the First and Second World wars, predominantly ones focused in Canada.
00:21:00:12 - 00:21:19:23
Speaker 2
So people can go there and take a look at those. And you can actually find them on YouTube as well. They're run through out of Canada. And, I have a film called Ways You Remember War Second Battle of Eve, and Canada's Memory, which basically looks at Canada's first battle of the First World War. But, the other project is, a film called, Story
00:21:19:23 - 00:21:54:03
Speaker 2
Pole indigenous veterans and the tallest totem in the world. So in Victoria, we have this this, totem pole. We can sometimes call it. But in fact, local nations here would call it a story pole. Right. And I tell the story of the war memorial plaque that was placed at the bottom of it. And, and that leads us into a story about indigenous veterans and their experience after the war didn't necessarily get the same benefits as non-Indigenous people, not to the fault of Veterans Affairs, more, challenges with Indian Affairs and trying to, be responsible.
00:21:54:03 - 00:22:14:04
Speaker 2
That story takes us to Houlton. Katie War Cemetery in the Netherlands. But, people are interested in learning more about the films or want access to these, these two films I mentioned. They could, they can email me at WarHeritage@RoyalRoads.ca. And, I'd be happy to chat with anyone always looking for new ideas.
00:22:14:04 - 00:22:41:22
Speaker 2
And really, it's that whole thing of a story anchored in a site. Of course, by future is to do one about the great sites of, Juno Beach and inland. There. And, also what about, the values of the Vimy Memorial? They're supposed to represent what Canada is about, right. Those values truth, face, justice, charity, knowledge and peace as Walter Aylward framed them.
00:22:42:00 - 00:23:03:18
Speaker 2
And, and together they sing the hymn of peace. That's what his words. They stand top of the two columns at the memorial. And so I'd like to do, I would like to do a piece on those values, you know, how did they how did they, play out in our, in our society, in our Canadian society today, because we often save Vimy as the birth of the nation.
00:23:03:20 - 00:23:13:16
Speaker 2
That's, that's a mythology that some people are really comfortable with and others are not. But, facts of the matter is it still stands as an important part of our history.
00:23:13:16 - 00:23:35:12
Speaker 1
Geoff, thank you so much for joining us today, sharing your thoughts and your perspectives and more importantly, your stories. So for those of you listening today, we will make sure to put some of that information in the show notes. If you've enjoyed the podcast, please like and share and we look forward to having you join us again here shortly.
00:23:35:14 - 00:23:49:14
Speaker 1
Thanks so much for tuning in. Story. Behind the Stone is available on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on the Wreaths Across America Radio Network on iHeartRadio. Audacity and tune in to search for wreath.
00:23:49:16 - 00:23:50:17
Speaker 1
Thank you for tuning in.