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The Honest Money Show is your guide to understanding what money really is, and where Bitcoin fits in. Hosted by Anja Dragovic, Australia's female-led, Bitcoin-only podcast, it cuts through the noise to explore how money shapes our lives, why the current system leaves so many people behind, and what a clearer, fairer future could look like.
Expect honest, accessible conversations with some of the most interesting thinkers in the space, the kind that take you from "I don't really get this" to genuinely curious. No hype, no pressure, just money, made clear.
Whether you're brand new to these questions or already deep in them, you're welcome here.
Joining me today on Honest Money Show is
Daniel Wilczynski. Daniel is the chairman
of the Australian Bitcoin industry body.
He's also the founder of Australia's
longest running Bitcoin only exchange,
Hardblock. And he's recently launched a
new product on the Australian market
called Guardblock. So we're going to talk
about that a little bit today as well,
including some of the recent regulations
coming into play, such as the travel rule.
And without further ado, Daniel, welcome
to the show. Hi, Anja. Thanks for having
me on. I've been following your podcast
for a while now, and you've been doing a
really good job. So I'm happy to be on
talking about the very exciting topic of
regulation. But, you know, honestly, I
think it is actually kind of interesting.
It's one of the most common, you'd think
it's, I would have thought it'd be a
boring topic. But actually, I get a lot of
questions about it. A lot of people are
kind of interested, surprisingly. It's one
of the most common questions I get, what's
the regulations, what kind of data we
provide. And so, yeah, I hope people will
get value from it. Yeah, and I agree. It
is an important topic. There is a
misconception that it is, like you said,
boring to talk about. But obviously, I
remember working at an exchange, and we
would get a lot of questions about
regulation. So let's start maybe with the
travel rule that has been on a lot of
people's minds. There's a lot of
misinformation going around in terms of
what it is. So do you want to give the
audience the TLDR? Okay, the TLDR is that
from basically the end of June, when you
make a Bitcoin transaction in Australia,
that your personal data has to travel with
that transaction. And that's why it's
called the travel rule. So your data is
supposed to travel when you're together
with a financial transaction. So
obviously, this would only apply to
centralized custodial services. You can't,
there's no way to really enforce it for
self-custodial wallets. But that's
basically the TLDR of what the travel rule
is. So how is that different to what data
is currently being shared? Okay, maybe
I'll just step back a bit. So that was the
TLDR. But overall, there's
some point of confusion that will clear up
because there's also a parallel to this,
there was new requirements from ASIC about
requirements for digital currency
exchanges to be licensed with ASIC,
including Bitcoin exchanges, and the
requirement to have an AFSL. So there's
actually like two separate regulations,
two regulations kind of happening at once,
the travel rule, and that's going to be
from this year. And then there will be the
AFSL and ASIC regulations that will be
next year. But it's kind of both happening
at the same time. So I just wanted to
explain that because some people, there
was a bit of confusion and people thought
it's like one thing, understandably,
because it's at the same time, but there's
actually two things. But yeah, okay. So
with your question, how is it different to
the travel rule? How is it different to
before?
So previously, we were regulated
with OSTRAC, or digital currency
exchanges, and that's been the case since
about 2018. So we were regulated, but
basically, so that means we had to verify
our customer and do KYC, IML on them.
Occasionally, we had to do SMR reports.
But yeah, we never had to do the kind of
the travel rule, we never had to send data
to other entities. So right now, if
somebody would, the travel rule says, if
we send to another exchange, we're
supposed to transfer the customer's data,
and we're supposed to verify whether a
customer is sending the money to, if it's
their own wallet or an exchange. So we
never had, we never had to do that. So
that's the difference. There's also some
overall, apart from the travel rule,
OSTRAC is kind of, there's some other kind
of more stringent requirements, separate
to that, that OSTRAC will have. So people
outside the industry, like, they might be
aware that OSTRAC requirements now started
applying to other industries, like lawyers
and things like that. So overall, it's
kind of been a bit of an overhaul. So it
will be the travel rule for digital
currency exchange, it will be travel rule,
but there will be some also stringent
regulations and requirements. Like for
example, we're going to have to be
required to do automated blockchain, some
kind of automated blockchain analysis,
which before we went, we didn't have to do
that, not in an automated way. That's
really interesting. So what is, what is
actually the risk? Why are people
panicking about this? So I don't think
there's necessarily a risk for panic. It's
not, yeah, it actually won't be that much
of a difference for like most customers.
So because luckily there is an exemption
that people can still send to their self
-custodial wallet. And obviously we can't,
if it's self-custodial, travel, like it's
just impractical, you can apply the travel
rule to that, like what can work. So
really like maybe I'll just tell you in
practice how it would work on Hardblock,
right? So in practice, what's going to,
for our customer in Hardblock, and maybe,
and by the way, other exchanges will
probably do something similar to hard
block. I think Bitroom might do something
similar, but I'll explain how it's going
to work on Hard block. Essentially, what
we're going to say is we're not actually
going to allow you to transfer to other
exchanges. You basically will be forced to
transfer to your self-custodial wallet.
Because otherwise we have to do the data
sharing. So if you would transfer to an
exchange, we'd have to transfer your data.
We don't want to do that. It's even like,
it's not very easy even to do that. How do
we like, there's not actually an easy
system. We'd have to identify and like
somehow send the data. There's no actually
easy way to implement that, even if you
wanted to. So we're just going to say,
okay, you have to transfer to your own
self-custodial wallet. And basically the
way we're going to do that is there will
be an attestation. So the customer, when
they're sent to their, when they want to
withdraw Bitcoins, we're going to have to
kind of sign a declaration that this is,
that this is a self-custodial wallet
they're sending it to. And we might on the
backend do some, we're going to create our
own tool to do some automated blockchain
checking to kind of confirm that is
correct. But basically that would be it.
So really for the customer, as long as
you're sending to your own self-custodial
wallet, it's going to be the same. Really,
there won't be that much difference. Yeah.
Yeah. And that makes sense. But do you
want to tell me a little bit about
Hardblock's early days? I did read
somewhere that you guys got debanked like
15 times. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I can
tell you about that. Yeah. More than 15
times, I think. Like, yeah, we got
debanked by like maybe 20 banks or
something. And yeah, so, I mean, you know,
going back to the early days, I remember
the first time I opened a bank account for
Hardblock. It was very interesting. At
that point, nobody actually, like most
people didn't know what Bitcoin is. So I
opened the first account, I think it was
2014. And I remember I went to
Commonwealth Bank and it was like a young,
it was a younger lady who was kind of
serving me, helping me open the bank
account. And I asked, you know, she asked
me what the business is. And I said about
selling Bitcoin. And she didn't know what
Bitcoin was. And she was very interested,
actually, it was kind of a younger girl.
And yeah, she was very interested. I think
I might have even orange peeled her, you
know. And yeah. And I remember one of the
things she said, when I started explaining
what is, oh, it's like a decentralized
money and things like that. And then
she's, oh, wow, the banks are going to
hide this. That's what she said. She was
right. Yeah, she was. Yeah, yeah. She was
very interested in it. Yeah. But yeah, so
I opened the bank account and things were
going well for the first one or two years.
But it really started from around 2016.
Yeah, we had our bank account close. The
banks became kind of very unfriendly
towards Bitcoin. And part of that was, it
is true, and you're aware there is
sometimes fraudulent transaction,
which is true. But I guess
what I found really annoying is, like none
of the banks wanted to even discuss this
issue with me. Like, how can we resolve
this? I can, what can we do? Like, can we
work together? Can we, you know, to
mitigate the fraud? Yeah. And we just
didn't, there was no discussion to be had,
really. You couldn't even get, it was hard
to get in touch with anyone. I mean, I had
a friend who gave me the contact to like
the CEO of BankSI. And I tried, they used
to go to high school together, and I
managed to get into contact with him, but
he kind of shoved me off and to somebody
lower down and lower down. And yeah,
nobody would discuss it with me. So at
that point, in that era, 2016, 2017, it
was very hard to operate. And the only way
we could operate was basically to just go
from one bank to the other. And I just
wouldn't be able to tell them what we're
actually doing. I'd open a new bank
account and tell them, I'd basically make
something up saying we'd do like web
development. Because I knew if I told them
we are Bitcoin exchange, they would just
close their account. They wouldn't, they
wouldn't, sorry, they wouldn't even let us
open their account. So I had to kind of,
essentially, I didn't tell them what we're
doing and I'd open a bank account. And
eventually, they would find out. And once
we have a bank account, they might let us
keep it, or maybe they'd close it
immediately. But basically, the only way I
could operate was to just go from one bank
account to the other and just keep on
opening new bank accounts. I'd fly into
state. Because I run out of all the banks,
I'm based in Adelaide. So I run out of all
the possible banks I could go to in South
Australia. You know, I even went to all
these kind of weird banks like Military
Bank or Nurses Union Bank. And they'd
question me like, why are you opening a
bank account with a, you know, with a
like, Nurses Union or whatever it was,
something, things like that. I'm like, are
you a nurse? No. Oh, I just want to open a
bank account. I thought you guys sound
great. And so I'd do that. I'd fly into
state. It was just, that's how you had to
operate. It was, it was pretty difficult.
Things did get better. In around 2020.
There were some services that kind of came
about, which were catering specifically to
this kind of industry. So if that, so in
the last four or five years, the banking
has gotten better. But again, yeah, it's
kind of like a very, there's a few limited
banking options, right? So like there's a
few which work with us, but most of
mainstream banks would still not work with
us. So the whole industry, it's very kind
of reliant on one or two banking options.
Yeah. It's interesting to hear that it's
Yeah. It's interesting to hear that it's
gotten better because a lot of the
complaints that come from people is that
they're being debanked or underbanked in
Australia. And you wouldn't think this is
the case, but you know, more often than
not, there's been countless examples where
someone might've been a customer with the
bank for 20 or 30 years, and then they
look to send their money to an exchange.
And all of a sudden they either get their
account frozen or shut down depending on
the bank. But it's just really interesting
that it's gotten better when so many
people are still complaining that their
bank does not allow them to manage their
money in the way that they see fit. Yeah.
Well, yeah, you're right. So I guess I
said it's better from us in terms of we
have some banking options, but something
new that started occurring in the last
four years was that actually customers,
when they try to send, they get
restrictions on their accounts. So that's
something new that didn't occur around
that 2016, 17 era. But yeah, that started
occurring now, kind of blocking the
customer end. Yeah. It's really
interesting. I can't help but wonder where
the future is going to be in Australia,
because we've seen globally some countries
are becoming more friendly towards
Bitcoin, while others, like for example,
South Africa is becoming very, very
unfriendly. And it's interesting to see
what direction Australia is going to take,
because at the moment, it feels like we're
right kind of in the middle. There's a
few, you know, political parties that are
open to it, a few that are completely
disinterested. And, you know, the
different government bodies don't seem to
agree all on how Bitcoin should be
regulated in Australia. And yeah, it's
going to be really interesting. Do you
have an opinion in terms of how things
might pan out from here on? Yeah, I mean,
I agree with you. Unfortunately,
Australia, honestly, it's not very
innovation friendly. And politicians talk,
you know, you will talk about innovation
and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah. But when it comes down to it, like
in terms of actual practical things,
Australia in so many ways, the capital
gains tax, obviously, for investors,
that's something probably the audience
knows about already. But in so many ways,
Australia isn't friendly. So with the
Austrac, you know, in many ways, that's
actually with Austrac regulations, that's
sort of out of the Australian government's
hands, because there's global bodies, like
financial action task force, which kind of
pressure Austrac. But, you know, there was
the new requirements by ISIC and that was
legislation passed, I think it was just
over a year ago, by the government.
And that just makes it basically voice
ASIC regulations. And their purpose was,
you know, on the face of it, the
government politicians say that it's to
protect consumers. But really, just, it's
basically about creating a huge barrier to
entry. And it's just about limiting the
amount of businesses that can start in
that can operate really support limiting
the amount of businesses and having a big
barrier to entry. And it's just kind of
like a very, it's not a very positive
attitude. Basically, when I started doing
Hardblock, I was, that was like 14 years
ago, I was just out of uni, I had like
nothing, I had $10,000 to my name. And I
could start it. There's no way why you
could do that now. Right? Somebody like,
this is just no way. You know, so with
those ASIC regulations, a lot of it is
basically, you have to have these
financial requirements and this kind of
underlying assumption by the government
that you need to be like, basically, you
need to be big, like you need to be like
big exchange, big service to operate as if
like being bigger makes it safer, which
is just not really true. I mean, if you
look at FTX, that was one of the biggest
services, you know, yeah, when that blew
up, that was one of the big, that was
worth billions of dollars. I think it was
the second biggest in the world after
Binance. So how did being, how was being
big saved with FTX? But FTX is actually
what they use as justifications for these
regulations. You know, yeah, like, by
CIFS, this underlying assumption, but if
it's bigger, it's safer, which isn't
true. And obviously, it makes it tough for
any new, like, I think we'll be able to
pass voice regulations and get voice
licenses. But it just makes it really hard
for anybody trying to start any kind of
new business like that. And it's not going
to cover just exchanges, it's going to be
any custodial services, wallet of Satoshi
is kind of affected, if somebody wants to
create like a wallet of Satoshi, it'd be
very difficult, like, something like what
wallet of Satoshi was, it'd be very
difficult. So it just, why do we have
this, like, why treat it? You do feel a
bit like it's treating innovation as the
enemy, like, kind of very, it's a bit of
a, I do feel it's a bit of a hostile kind
of attitude in Australia. Like, it's
always like making, making everything
harder, making everything harder. Why do
you, why not like, make it easier instead
of harder? Yeah, yeah, it's very true. It
kind of feels like the government's
picking winners and losers, and obviously
favoring bigger companies over small
businesses, and yeah, selling it all as,
as, you know, consumer protection. Which,
yeah, like FTX is a really good example.
There's a lot of consumers that were not
protected during that. So, yeah, I don't
think it makes a lot of sense. But let's
pivot a little bit. I'm very keen to learn
about GuardBlock, because this is
something that, you know, you've recently
released, and early feedback has been
good. Do you want to tell us what it is?
Yeah, so, yeah, GuardBlock, it's something
I'm pretty excited about. I've been really
thinking about something along these
lines, how to solve this problem for a few
years. And basically, it's a vote where
the customer has custody over Bitcoin, but
there's a safety net for them. The safety
net means if they lose their hardware
device, we can recover the Bitcoin. And it
also means there's an inheritance pathway.
If they pass away, there's an inheritance
pathway where beneficiaries can access
their Bitcoin. So, I think it's a very
good product. One of the big benefits is
also it's not very complicated to set up.
The customer only needs one hardware
device. And a lot of it, like the
motivation is like twofold. In the last
few years, I've had kids myself, and I
started thinking more about the
inheritance kind of problem, like how to
set up, you know, you want to control your
Bitcoins, but you want to have your ears
be able to access it. So, I was thinking
how to, what's kind of wise to design
that. But also, another thing was like
running an exchange. I, you know, and you
worked at Bitaroo, you, however, a lot of
people are just afraid of holding their
Bitcoin on a hardware device. And they are
very afraid to lose it. Like, and it's a
kind of understandable thing. And I, like
we're in Bitcoin full time, like, you
know, you're thinking about it over time,
but not everybody is like us. Some people
have other day jobs, and they're not
thinking about this as much as we are. And
they're just, they're afraid to store
large amounts of Bitcoin on a hardware
device, because they're afraid, they don't
fully trust themselves that they're not
going to forget about it or lose it. So, I
think our service is something where it
allows them to have that custody of these
Bitcoins. But there is this kind of
fallback path and safety net for them. So,
that's kind of in a nutshell, does that,
yeah. Yeah, it does. Does that kind of
explain it? When you say, when they, if
they lose their hardware device, do you
literally mean the hardware device? Or do
you also mean the private keys? Well,
basically anything, right? If they lose
their private keys over, basically we
protect them, they can lose everything.
And there's a way we can recover it. And
so, I think it's a pretty neat solution
that we have. The way we can recover it is
basically there's an alternate recovery
pathway. But that pathway only activates
after a year if that wallet is inactive.
So, basically, normally we don't have
access to the coins, but if the wallet
becomes inactive for a year, because for
example, the customer lost it, we can then
access it and recover it for the customer.
So, it's kind of, in many ways it merges.
You know, you have self-custodial, you can
hold Bitcoin self-custodially on a
custodial service. Many, a lot of people,
because of that easier recovery and
backup, people choose to hold it on a
custodial service, like an exchange. But
obviously that's less secure. But
essentially our system, like a vote,
merges the two and you kind of get the
proys from both of them. Basically, on the
first kind of layer, you're holding itself
custodially. Bitcoins belong to you. But
if you do lose it and your wallet becomes
inactive after a period of time, which is
just over a year, it essentially becomes
custodial and we can recover it. So, you
kind of have the best of both worlds in
terms of self-custody and custodial
services. You have the best of both
worlds.
Yeah, so, yeah, and yeah, we're pretty
excited. We've had some pretty positive
feedback about it. We've got our first few
customers now and yeah, I think it's a
really good product. It's one of the
things I'm really proud of in my life, to
be honest. Like I really believe in it and
I think, yeah, I think we have something
good and I think it's going to help a lot
of people.
Yeah, absolutely. And like, so
I'd be very keen to know you obviously
you've got a number of customers now
coming through. What is like, what are
some of the main questions that they ask
during the onboarding process? There's
been a few different questions. Just how
the service works, you know, like the
details of it, mostly that, you know, I
don't want to go too much into it because
I think if I start talking about the
details, it's going to be hard to
understand. So usually the way we do it is
we actually get everybody who does an
onboarding. We do actually a call with
them, like a video call and we show them
the product and we actually help them set
it up. And it's not too difficult to set
up yourself, but we just want, because it
is important. So we want them to
understand the different aspects of how it
works. So just, it's not super
complicated, but there's some things that
people need to know. So yeah, like, so
that's kind of what we generally explain
during the onboarding. Yeah. I mean, we
had some other questions. So we use, you
know, again, about the technology aspects,
you know, like, like what do we use, what
technology stack we use. So we use a mini
script and Taproot, mini script. And
again, that's kind of, I don't know if I
don't want to get too much into the
technical details, but basically we use
Taproot because it gives better privacy
for the customers. But I'm also, yeah, I'm
also very keen to understand. So the early
customers that you guys have onboarded,
are they mainly like families? I assume
people who've had kids probably want the
inheritance side of things sorted.
Essentially. Yeah. Yeah. Are you also
seeing businesses? Yes. No, we haven't had
that yet. No, no, not business. Just more
individuals and people with self-managed
super funds also. Yeah. So it's kind of,
you know, it's, I guess, the kind of
people, it's people like us, you know,
maybe in 30s or 40s, who have children,
surprisingly, actually quite a few
females. That's one thing that surprised
me. Like, quite a few females asked about
the product. And I'm surprised at all,
Daniel. Yeah. Like self-custody is the one
thing that is so important and I advocate
for it, but it's also extremely stressful.
Like I spend way too much time thinking
about my self-custody setup. If there's
one thing that keeps me up at night, it's
not the price, it's not the fact that
we're in a bear market. Like recently
there was just been another dip, right?
And Bitcoin went to the 60s again. And I
was like, I woke up, I was like, shrugged
it off, you know, go about my day, about
my self-custody. Oh my gosh. That is, that
is a whole different like ball game. So
yeah, I completely understand why you're
seeing a female demographic. It's just too
stressful for us. Yeah, I think so. That's
kind of what I've noticed also. Yeah, I
think they appreciate having that kind of
safety net, which is essentially what it
is. You keep your wallet, your keys, your
hardware device, but if things, if you
lose it, you mess up, there's kind of a
backup. It gives some additional security
protections also, like you can put
spending limits on. Yeah. Another question
we do get is about the kind of, regarding
the privacy kind of aspect. So, because
there is, I guess you could say one kind
of downside of a product. Overall, I think
it's really good. It provides a lot of
benefits. It's like a strictly an
enhancement or you're having a hardware
device, but there's sort of a downside in
that we, since it's essentially a
collaborative custody arrangement and the
only way we can make it work is
like we have the keys and we have a
descriptor. And since we have a
descriptor, we can see the transactions.
So like, for example, if God block gets
hacked, if like, you know, our server gets
compromised, our, the customer's Bitcoins,
the hacker wouldn't be able to store,
steal the customer's Bitcoin. If we go,
you know, if we go rogue, we can't steal
the customer's Bitcoin, but the actual
data could be stolen. So the transaction
data and the balance, and we do see the
actual balance. So some people kind of
raised that as an issue. So maybe I would
address that because it is true. And by
the way, this is true for any
collaborative custody. If you're using
anything like unshined or anything, the
only way it can work if in collaborative
custody is for them to actually, like,
they have to be able to see your
transaction. There's no other way to do
it. So if it's collaborative custody,
you're going to have to give that up. But
the other thing I would say is, I think
that concern is only valid if your coins
are not KYC.
Because really, if you bought them on an
exchange, it's already identified that you
own Bitcoin and who you are. Like, for
example, a lot of our customers for guard
blocks actually coming from Hardblock
exchange. So in that case, we already know
the names, we already know the addresses,
we already know they have a Bitcoin
because we can see that they bought
Bitcoin. So then it's just like, it's not
actually a huge privacy loss for them to
use Guardblock, because it's already kind
of known. But yeah, like definitely, if
you bought your like Bitcoins peer to peer
and very, you know, the KYC free, then you
shouldn't use a service, any collaborative
custody service for these coins. Yeah. And
that's another great point that, you know,
I want to ask. Obviously, you would have
heard that France is particularly bad when
it comes to violent attacks against
Bitcoiners. There's a number of
kidnappings and torture happening. It is a
really serious problem. And that is all
because one of the bureaucrats sold
customer data from their taxation office,
basically to criminals. And since then,
there's just like, they've just had a
surge in crime. And is there mechanisms to
protect, I guess, people in who might be
under duress? Is there like some sort of a
mechanism? Yeah, there is actually. Well,
I'm glad you had, I didn't like tell you
this. But yeah, like, but yeah, we do
actually have something, what we, that's
why we have spending limits. So
yeah. So basically, okay, it's not a
foolproof method. It's not a foolproof
method. But like there is, yeah, there is
some protection. You can, on Guardblock,
you can set up a spending limit. So a
spending limit would be basically you can,
a restriction of how much Bitcoin you can
withdraw. So you can say, I can only
withdraw, you know, $10,000 in worth of
Bitcoin per month, something like that.
And to change that, you take to change
that limit, it would, there would be,
you'd have to wait a period of time. And
so basically, that limit would protect
you, because in that case where you do get
kidnapped, like, there's actually
literally only a limited amount of
Bitcoins you could send out. If you spend,
set up that spending limit, it can easily
be changed. So it's like, you can tell the
attacker in that kind of situation.
And yeah, like you can have, have my
Bitcoin, but I literally can only spend
this much. So it kind of potentially limit
the loss and would make you a less
valuable target. If you set that up. Yeah,
that's a really important. Yeah, I didn't
know that. I quite like that feature, I
must admit. Yeah, you did, because, you
know, that's something like people do
worry about, you know, and it's, you know,
and people have had their data
leaked, you know, famously by ledger. I
think it was a few times by ledger and the
addresses, which is really bad, you know.
So the other thing with Guardblock, right
now, we don't ask for Guardblock, we
don't ask people's addresses, but we do,
for it to work, we do need some
information, like the names, especially
for inheritance, we need to know who they
are to be able to help them with
inheritance, right. But we're doing, we're
going to do what we can to make the data
as secure as we can. Because again, if we
get hacked, the Bitcoins can be stolen,
but that data potentially can be. So we
actually not going to store the data, any
press, like the personal identification
data on the server with guard block, we're
going to move it onto like a separate
storage, isolated from the server. And
we're going to have a public key on the
server that's going to encrypt the data
and kind of send it to like a separate
storage, storage, which would kind of
enhance that security. So if we would ever
get hacked, and you know, hopefully it
doesn't happen. But if it does, it would
kind of limit the damage. And so if that's
something else, you know, we take that
pretty seriously. But yeah, I think one of
the things also, we do have some
experience dealing with these issues, like
we've run hard block, and we never had
customers, you know, IDs leaked or
anything like that. We never had, you
know, our keys or our servers compromised.
So we have experience dealing with these
kind of security issues. But, you know,
yeah, like the reality is, that's always a
risk, right? If you have a server, these
things do sometimes happen, it's hard to
protect, but we're doing what we can.
Yeah, like, you might know, and my guests,
I guess my audience might also know, like,
my background is in design. And one of the
reasons why I prefer dealing with Bitcoin
only businesses is because they know that
security and privacy are embedded in the
design of the product and the service.
That's what gives me, like, I guess, a
greater level level of comfort, because I
know that people that manage these
products and services would have kind of
designed it in a way that serves the needs
of Bitcoiners, essentially, which is
security and privacy. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And sometimes it's kind of to maybe
detriment from a business perspective,
right? Because you can, you could easily
take a lot of shortcuts, and you could
easily take a lot of shortcuts, and it'd
be probably good for business. But yeah, I
don't know, I guess maybe it's the kind of
something about this kind of community and
about our mindset that we don't like to
take the shortcuts. And that's kind of
when we do it, yeah, maybe, maybe to
detriment business-wise, but we're trying
to do things the way they should be done.
And I think GuardBlock does it the way it
should be done. It helps people keep
custody over Bitcoin. It does always
things. If we disappear, you have your
Bitcoins.
But it does give you that fallback option.
Now, because also, you know, a few years
ago, like, one another motivation was
like, you know, some people, especially
who run exchanges used to say, Oh, like,
self custodial, it's never going to work.
It's just too risky for people. Like
people don't like, don't, don't like
having to control their own money and that
the risk that they lose it. And like, that
was, and it still happens, a lot of people
kind of side that position, but it's just
not, it can't be, but self custody would
not apply to the masses. Right. And
because of voice risks. And I just, I'm
not, yeah, I don't think that's
necessarily true. Because I think there is
technical solutions to that. And I always
knew that. And that's kind of actually
what we implemented with GuardBlock. I
think there is a technical solution where
you get that self custody, but there is a
recovery mechanism. So yeah, that's kind
of what I always believed in. And that's
what I tried to do. Yeah. Yeah, there's
definitely no one solution fits all. And
like, I know, there's definitely a lot of
self custody maximalists, if you want to
call them that, um, in our community that,
you know, I'll say, you know, anti
-collaborative custody, but I just, for
me, where I'm at with this in my journey,
it's, it's to me, it's like, I know
Bitcoin is my preferred form of money and
I am the biggest risk, because if I have
all of the self custody myself, then
that's kind of like a lot of pressure on
me. So for me, diversifying my custody
solutions is a way to sleep better at
night. So, you know, there might be some,
a percentage of my sash that I manage
myself, you know, with a, I don't know, a
single signal pass for hours or multi-sig
solution, or, you know, there's might be a
percentage of my stash that is in a vault
or in a collaborative custody arrangement.
And that just really helps me sleep at
night. It really does. Um, so I'm a big
advocate for it. I think it's wonderful
that there are different solutions in the
marketplace because we're all different.
And I also, you know, want to say that
it's, I guess, different needs at
different points in, in your life. Like, I
think, you know, you said the whole reason
why you were inspired to build this
product is because you became a recent
father. So it was top of mind for you. You
had this life change. You're like, okay,
well, how do I pass this inheritance on?
So I think, yeah, I think we just need to
kind of be open-minded and, and, you know,
understand that different people need
different solutions. Yeah. Yeah. And I
really liked what you said, like the word
diversification and, um, that's really
good. And that's something I advise people
to do, especially if they have high amount
of net worth in Bitcoin. And I would say
like, you know, you always have like the
shit coiners, sorry, can I use that word?
Shit coiners. Yeah. So they always say,
you know, oh, oh, it's good to have a
diversified portfolio. And I say, yes, you
should have a diversified portfolio and
you should, and by diversified, you should
hold Bitcoin, you know, on an exchange, on
an ETF, in self-custody and in
collaborative custody. And that's a
diversified portfolio. You don't have a
diversified portfolio by having shit
coins. You diversify by actually
diversifying your, uh, how you hold
Bitcoin. Um, no, but yeah, like if that's
something you advocate, especially like
for some people who have, yeah, higher
percentage, like if you've got like 50% of
your net worth in Bitcoin or something
like that, or more than that, you really
should, I would recommend, and this is
what I do. I don't have just one storage
mechanism. I would advocate like two or
three different setups, possibly, because
they all, like you said, also, they all
have different tried-offs, like GuardBlock
also has tried-offs, right? So if we all
have different tried-offs, so, um,
like have two or three different setups
with different tried-offs and just in case
something for whatever reason goes wrong
with one, the other kind of methods, the
other storage solutions are there. Um,
yeah, but that's only applies if you have
like high amount, if you have like, you
know, less, maybe if it's five or 10% of
your net worth, then it's probably not
worth it, and bothering with like multiple
setups. But yeah, if you have a higher net
worth, I would diversify, diversification,
hold Bitcoin in many different ways. Yeah.
Yeah. That's definitely good advice. And a
lot of people think, um, as well, I don't
think it's about the amount of Bitcoin you
hold necessarily. It's more about the
percentage of the ownership because if,
even if you have, I don't know, 10,000,
but that's like 80% of your net worth,
then that's a substantial amount to you,
you know? Um, and it, yeah, it makes sense
to protect it. So, um, yeah, do you, I
want to also ask you a little bit about,
is there anything you can share in terms
of like new features dropping on hard
block? I'm very keen to understand because
obviously I'm a Hardblock customer and I
want to know if there's any new things on
the roadmap that you can share if you can
share. Um, no, not really. I mean, right
now our focus is on Guardblock and
regulations. So we don't have any specific
features. I mean, yeah, we, I guess the
answer is not, we're just working on guard
block. Um, um, so right now that's kind of
where our mind is. Um, the thing we're
working on Guardblock now is like our
social recovery, uh, we're going to
implement. So that, that's basically going
to be, um, that should be released in the
next two weeks. And what that's going to
do is so in that situation, if like, if
let's say our customer does lose their
Bitcoin and so it does lose their device
on guard block. And after one year we can
recover voice coins, we have access and we
can give them back to the customer. But
then the core problem is how do we
actually identify the customer? Like who,
how do we know they are who they are? So
what we're going to do is use a kind of a
social recovery mechanism. So you
basically, when you set up your account on
guard block, you're going to nominate um,
you're going to provide yourself a few
alternate contact methods for yourself,
like phone number, email, other contact
methods, but you can also nominate
friends, like trusted contacts. So let's
say if you were a customer of guard block
and you lost your device, when you set it
up, you'd nominate some of your trusted
friends. And if you do lose your device,
what we would do is we'd contact your
trusted friends to verify that your kind
of claim to voice coins is actually your
claim. So that should be ready in guard
block in two or three weeks. Yeah, but on
hard block itself, no features, just
getting ready for the regulations. One
thing. I would say one thing that we are
working on Hardblock, it might sound kind
of bad, but we are working on, it's
actually good. It sounds bad, but it's
good. It's we're working on like an
internal chain analysis too, for like, but
for Oztrak and might seem bad, like why
we're working on our internal chain
analysis too, we're going to track
customers data. And that is sort of bad at
first, but when you actually realize
Oztrak requires to do this kind of chain
analysis. And most crypto companies, they
use the kind of famous chain analytics
tools, like third party. Yeah, third
party, true tools. And obviously the
downside of that is when you do them,
you're actually providing, to use those
tools, usually you have to provide data on
your own customers and the transactions to
the tools. It's kind of like a two-wide
thing. You provide data on your kind of
addresses to that tool, and that tool
collects all the data from all its
customers. And then it kind of, then you
can use that tool to gather data on the
customers, but we don't want to share our
data with voice chain analysis tools. We
want to avoid it as much as we can, even
though Oztrak is making us do something.
And it would be easier, it would be better
for us to use voice chain analysis. We'd
be like ready to go off the shelf. Yeah. I
was just going to say the same thing. This
is like just another example of Bitcoiners
actually doing the less business savvy
thing to make things more secure and
private for the customer. This is like a
great example. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's
something we're working on. So again, it
sounds bad working on a chain analysis
tool, but it's good because it's going to
be our chain analysis tool, and we're not
going to have to share data with chain
analysis of these other companies. And by
the way, you know, again, in like, it
shows you the kind of what's important to
the Oztrak and the government, because
like, really, when you like, okay, we're
supposed to provide data to Oztrak, or
whatever, IML, KYC, but why isn't anybody
actually thinking about this kind of a
breach of Australians' privacy? Like,
these are foreign companies, foreign
based companies. Actually, it's no secret
that they work with foreign governments,
foreign intelligence services. And like
Oztrak, I mean, I think I can slide it. I
hope I'm done getting in trouble, but
Oztrak uses chain analysis, and they're
kind of pushing us to use these tools. How
is that? So this is a government agency
that's pushing, getting us to use a tool,
which is a tool from a foreign country
that works with foreign governments. And
when we use that tool, we're going to
provide data to essentially, that is
available to foreign governments. But
we're pushed in. But it's like, why isn't
that a concern? Why isn't the privacy of
Australians a concern? But it's instead,
like, it's trying to gather as much data.
You know, it's like with everything,
right? To gather as much data. Like,
Isaac, make the rules as make it as hard
to start a business. If somebody does have
a business that's successful, tags them as
much as you can. It's just like, on every
aspect, just making, I feel just making
things more difficult. Like this, like the
mentality is wrong. Like, we're not like,
we're not the enemy, you know, but yeah,
anyway. Yeah, I mean, there is a case to
Yeah, I mean, there is a case to
be made. There was a piece I found a while
ago, and I've never been able to find it
since it was like a thread on Twitter
about an investigative journalist who did
this piece on the FATF, or what is called
Financial Action Task Force. I call them
FATWA. Yeah, like basically, I believe it
was a female. She criticised it because
it's like, there's a company that's
headquartered in Paris, that's calling the
shots globally and giving these ratings to
countries in terms of, you know, their
surveillance mechanisms of their citizens,
all in with the aim to prevent money
laundering and terrorism financing, which
a reasonable person obviously stands
against. Like, most people do the right
thing and would not want to engage with
crime. Yet, these companies are calling
the shots on everyday Australians who, you
know, obviously are law-abiding citizens
for the large part, and we are
compromising our local data, giving it
away to foreign governments, and there's
no publicly available information that is
easy to access in terms of how much of
taxpayer money is being spent on making
these upgrades, how successful is it in
preventing crime, how much Australia is at
risk compared to other countries, and if
we should be, you know, playing by the
same rules as, you know, countries that
are known to be bad when it comes to
terrorism. So, it's, yeah, there's
definitely a case to be made there, and I
think it's something that's definitely not
talked about enough in Australia. Yeah,
it's like a limit on Australia's
sovereignty, because most people naively
think, oh, it's Australian government, and
Australian government decides, like, what
the rules are, and Austra, but that's not
how it works. Basically, Australian
government and Austra really have no
choice, because above them, as you say,
sits the Financial Action Tax Force, which
is a global body, and basically, the way
it works, it gives countries writings, and
if you get a bad writing, you essentially
start getting, like, the country starts
getting cut off from the financial system,
global financial system. Like, obviously,
that would be a disaster for any country,
for Australia, if it starts getting cut
off from the global financial system, so
it has to do what is decided by FITF,
you know, and who controls that, I guess
it's essentially like a, it's a limit on
Australian sovereignty. Australia doesn't
have the ability really to control this
kind of the Austra and what those rules
are. Like, yeah, they don't have control.
And so, and, but, you know, if that's
something, hopefully, maybe, like, why we
like Bitcoin, because if we do get to that
point of hyper-Bitcoinization,
if that gets achieved, then that is kind
of a much more neutral, it's an
alternative economic system, a neutral
economic system, and if we are in a place
in the world where the world does move to
that system, Australia and other countries
will not be under the same pressure,
because they can't be cut off from that
kind of financial system, because Bitcoin
is global, it's not, it's insensible.
There's no, you know, financial action
task, we can't really control Bitcoin. So
that is something, you know, maybe we can
hope that in 10 or 20 years, we do get to
that world and it will give places like
Australia actually the ability to have
more independence, because I mean, really,
that's all these countries, you can see
how powerful sanctions are, like, and all
these countries like Australia, like, they
have, it's a tool, you have to comply,
otherwise you get cut off. So, like, this
could change the world, and I think it
would change the world for the better,
because it would mean smaller countries
will have more independence and more
freedom to decide their own fight. Yeah, I
really hope so as well. And just to go a
little bit philosophical towards the end,
one thought that I've been having a lot
lately is like, time and money is how
society is organized, right? Like, so we
have a unit of account in time, we have a
unit of account in money. And if we, like,
think how weird the world would be, and
how disempowered you will feel as an
individual, if time was somehow centrally
controlled, and could be manipulated, like
increasing degrees, increased, increased,
or decreased, or sped up, or slowed down,
without you having a say, like, just
imagine that concept, like, and people
would be outraged. But somehow, we've been
conditioned to think that this is
perfectly okay to, to when it comes to
money, like it should, this is why, yeah,
I fundamentally believe that money should
be neutral, so that it can't be controlled
and weaponized against you. Yeah, I'm a
bitcoiner. Yeah, and exactly. I mean,
everything is so powerful, even with
Julian Assange, one of the first things
they've done to him was cut off his
banking, right? Like, and it's, again,
it's supposedly not against the law, you
know, he, before he, this was before he
even was put in prison, you know, like,
it's, you can destroy people. Like right
now, a lot of, you know, you know, some
people who disagree with some kind of
foreign policy issues, whatever your idea
on those foreign policy kind of issues
are, there's been, you know, some people
who make voice points, the actual, that
kind of going against the kind of
mainstream opinion, the way you, the first
step usually to punish them is to cut them
off from banking. So it's enormously
powerful tool for coercion, effectively.
And with Bitcoin, hopefully, we'll give
people all around the world more freedom,
as there will be less of that ability to
coerce them through control over money. I
mean, if you get cut off from all your
entire banking, like right now, like, you
can't live in Australia, can you? Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But let's
end on a positive note. Before we wrap up,
do you just want to share what the pricing
is of the guard block product? Yeah. Okay.
So, so right now, since we, the product is
new for a limited time, for a few months,
we have a reduced price. I'm just trying
to remember, I believe it's 0.1%
of whatever you hold in Bitcoin, it'd be 0
.1% per year. You still, you get the first
12 months free. So the first 12 months
free, then after that, it's going to be 0
.1% per year for five years. And after
that, it's going to be 0.2%. And that's a
limited time in the future, we're just
going to make it probably 0.2% or higher.
Because to be honest, it is 0.1%, it's
pretty low. So I think it's why we're
still, the product is new, that's okay,
but probably in a few months, we're going
to increase it. So, I mean, but if
anybody's setting up vote now, that lower
pricing will apply to them. And so I guess
it's kind of maybe a bit of an incentive,
like if you're interested, possibly get
started now because the prices will be
higher in the future. So if you start now,
you have access to those lower prices. But
yeah, there's another benefit, there's no
lock-in. So, because we can't, like the
customer has the ability to move the
Bitcoins without us. So they can use the
product. If they don't like the pricing,
if they don't like the product, anytime in
the future, they're free to live anytime.
And yeah. Sounds great. Thanks so much for
your time, Daniel. And let me know if you
have any final thoughts that you'd like to
share with my audience. No, no. One final
thought is I really enjoyed the Bush Bash
in Bar and Bai a few weeks ago, Anja,
which you and some others played a part in
organizing. It was very enjoyable. One of
the best Bush Bashes.
And it was like a very good attendance.
For a first time Bush Bash, I was
surprised. So yeah, advise people to go to
that or any other Bush Bashers. They're
always great. And yeah, thanks for having
me on. And if anybody wants to contact me,
you can find me on Twitter, Daniel
Wilczynski. And yeah. Yeah. I'll drop
your, all the links in the show notes for
anyone who wants to find the different
products and services and also reach out
to Daniel. So thanks again for your time.