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Welcome to The Overflow—the bonus round of faith and real-life conversation with Brandon and Susan Thomas. Every week, they unpack the powerful insights, behind-the-scenes experiences, and personal reflections that didn’t quite fit into Sunday’s sermon.
This is where the conversation gets practical, honest, and a little bit unscripted. Whether it's an encouraging word, a deeper dive into Scripture, or a hilarious moment from their week, Brandon and Susan bring fresh perspective and spiritual fuel to keep you going.
It’s real talk, fresh takes, and full hearts.
These are the conversations too good to cut and too real to miss.
When it comes to hot topics, cultural opinions, world views, some people say the church needs to stay in its lane, but we believe there's a time to speak. Welcome to The Overflow. We are so glad that you are here for this conversation because we are talking about what is the church's role when it comes to world conversations and hot topics and current events, things happening around us. Is the church to be silent? Is the church to stay in a certain lane?
Speaker 1:What is the church's role?
Speaker 2:And we have wonderful friends that sometimes will not speak on the same topics that we will speak out on.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And really, this this is not I'm not giving you a list of churches to go hunt down and say, and rattle, knock on their door, why didn't you speak on this issue? This is more us advocating wholeheartedly
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:For why we speak when we speak, why we don't speak when we don't speak. Yeah. And really, just to kind of an insider view of the process we go through, and our reasoning behind why we say what we say in church about hot topics, cultural events, big things, even stuff that's on the news. Yeah. Why do we do it, and how do we decide?
Speaker 1:Yeah. And how we decide. Because we we don't always nail it. Let's just go ahead
Speaker 2:and Right.
Speaker 1:Bury the lead. We don't always nail it and get it perfect.
Speaker 2:There are times where the moment has passed and we're like, oh, I wish I would have said something. Yeah. There are other times where we say something and we're like, yeah, that probably wasn't my best foot forward.
Speaker 1:Right. Absolutely. 100%. So so take us there. Get us into this.
Speaker 2:Okay. So this is a big one. Yeah. And and we get it, we get hit from all sides on this one. There are those who have left the church over a stand that we have taken.
Speaker 2:For sure. There are those who are drawn to the church because of a stand that we had taken. Same stand, same voice, draws some Mhmm. And repels others.
Speaker 1:Which could I just say that I I have to jump in right there. Just, whoo. Which is why people cannot determine what is said. Mm-mm. If we are serving people, we are done for.
Speaker 1:We are we are living I mean, God help us. That's number one. For the approval of God.
Speaker 2:You just nailed it. That's number one. That's number one. Yeah. And that is, if you wanna know us Yeah.
Speaker 2:That we are on assignment.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And there's a scripture, Hebrews 13. You nailed it. This I had this ready to go. Hebrews thirteen seventeen, the Bible says, obey your leaders and submit to them. That's not a scripture I love to read because it feels like submit to me, obey them.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:That is really not my point. That's not But it is in scripture, and it is talking about spiritual leadership in your life. And we For every time that we've been over authority, we've been under authority. Yes. And this is something that we have recognized, and with joy have served under the leadership of spiritual leaders.
Speaker 2:But I wanna focus on the next thing it says.
Speaker 1:And
Speaker 2:it says, for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning. That's great.
Speaker 1:Have you Yes. Ever
Speaker 2:For that would be of no advantage to you. As a church person, I would read this, and I would say, man, I wanna lift up my leaders. I wanna I want I want my leaders to serve with joy. I want them to know that they have in me someone that understands the weight that they carry. But that's not the point for today's talk.
Speaker 2:What I want to point out is, if you want to know me, and you want to know us, there is a weight that I teach our pastors to have at Keystone. And that is the weight that we will one day be accountable before the Lord for what we teach, and how we lead, and the decisions we make. We will be accountable for the leadership of the church.
Speaker 1:Why does this make me cry?
Speaker 2:Because it's true. Because you feel the weight of that. It touches you emotionally because we really do feel the weight of that. It makes you emotional. And am I dead inside that I'm
Speaker 1:not crying? No. I just it hit me hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I I I feel the weight of this. Yes. I feel the weight of this. Yes.
Speaker 2:And you feel the weight of this.
Speaker 1:I do.
Speaker 2:That we live, and then here's the big topic, in the fear of the Lord, not in the fear of man.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. We so deeply, I so deeply desire to please God. And I desire to he's he's rescued me from so much. He brought my life out literally out of the pit. He freed me from shackles, all of the above and then some.
Speaker 1:And he called us. He called us to this assignment. I mean, for me, you know, I can go back to when I was that young girl, still single, didn't yet know you, but I was on fire for the Lord because he had freed me and rescued me. That God is the God I've given my life to. And to be now in a position where the Lord has asked us to lead, we so want to do it in alignment with him.
Speaker 1:And we so long to please him. And I think that when you're leading people, if the first heart is not to please God, above all else, to please God, then we find ourselves very, very vulnerable to be tossed in like a wave at sea back and forth as we try to please people. That's a trap. We can't live there.
Speaker 2:You know, and that goes two ways. Pleasing God means that when we do take a stand on a courageous issue or a hard to talk about issue that we know I mean, we've had people get up and leave in the middle of something that we've been talking about.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:I've had people openly mock me from the from the seats. And I see it all, nobody else sees it, but they're mocking, laughing, you know, all that. There's another angle on this, and it's very tempting for many who are very vocal on hot topic issues to comment in a way that I believe is not honoring the Lord. And that is you comment, you position yourself with rage, you position yourself with insults, with slander, rude, and you are not exhibiting the fruit of the spirit of God. Again, I know that we're leaving behind clicks, and we're less inclined to the algorithm if we are kind in our tone.
Speaker 2:Yeah. To be outraged with our tone, to be slanderous with our tone Yeah. Gets more clicks. To be innately negative, to be angry Yeah. Gets more clicks.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. To be negative, it gets more clicks. But that's not I fear the Lord too much to do that. And if that means less clicks, that means less clicks. We've gotta be strong, courageous, and true Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Convictional Yeah. Passionate Yes. But we have to have love and grace in our heart.
Speaker 1:We have to have love and grace in our heart. Will you read that verse one more time, top to bottom?
Speaker 2:Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.
Speaker 1:They are to keep they are keeping watch over your soul. So I wanna just talk about that for a moment because I know that you were, you know, and I understand it. When you're in the position of leadership, you feel like you're being, like, grandiose talking about this is just bible. That when you're in an assignment and let's say you're listening to us right now and you may live in a different state, in a different place, in a different city, you want to be under a leadership of a church that values your soul, first of all. Let's just talk about that.
Speaker 1:That actually cares about you as a person, that deeply cares that your marriage would get better, that deeply cares that you would have support and strength in your parenting, cares about your souls. You not only fear God, you feel that because you love God, you feel the weight of the assignment to care for God's people and to love God's people well. And so for us, you know, when it comes to why do we talk on certain issues or not talk about another, that's a constant filter as I know I know it's for you, and it's it's for sure for me. We love you. We love you.
Speaker 1:We love you, Keystone Church. We love you, Christ follower. We love you, person far from God. We have a love that you would experience, almighty god, like we have, and that he has a plan in this murky, wild, messed up world. He has a plan that is clear, and he can lead us.
Speaker 1:He will lead us.
Speaker 2:Had some feedback recently from someone. They were speaking to me. Obviously, I'll speak I'll speak generically to to provide cover for their confidentiality. But I had someone recently tell me about a family member who was struggling with the culture. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you can I'm leaving that intentionally vague. That could be addiction. It could be sexual issues. It could be whatever it is. But they were struggling with the culture.
Speaker 2:And they've been attending our church.
Speaker 1:Culture of the world or culture of the church?
Speaker 2:Culture of the world.
Speaker 1:Culture of
Speaker 2:They're struggling with one foot in the world. Sure. And they're wrestling with some things that are dragging them down. And this person who loves this family member has been bringing them to church and is just praying, oh, if they could just get out of the world. You know, if they could leave behind the culture and find Christ and find the kingdom of God and adopt it.
Speaker 2:Let go of those chains. And so they come to Keystone, and I'm being strong on their very issue. Very clear on their very issue. That could be, again, on addiction. It could be on greed.
Speaker 2:It could be on sexual issues, same sex, trans, whatever. But we're being really strong. And, you know, for the person who's bringing their family member, that could make you feel nervous. Yeah. Because, okay, I'm losing them.
Speaker 2:I'm losing them. But they said when they talked to the family member later, they said, you know, it's kinda tough to hear, but I really don't feel judged. I feel like they're bringing me truth from the Bible, but I don't feel like they're being mean or judging me. And I'm like, that's like the greatest feedback I could get because it's grace and truth. Truth and grace.
Speaker 2:And we want the tone to be loving, but we're not backing off from our truth because our truth is love. Clarity is kindness. And so we live with the fear of the Lord. We gotta do God's truth, God's way. We're here to please him.
Speaker 2:And Ezekiel chapter four thirty four, think it is, maybe 16, but I think it's 34, It says, Woe to the shepherds who feed on the flock.
Speaker 1:Oh, let's talk about that for a second.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you feed on their praise, you feed on their approval, really, you're building followers, you're not building a church. I know there's things that I say that just are gonna turn some people off. I'm only the other day, I looked at I don't do this all the time, but I noticed, wow, I had this massive drop in followers, and I just concluded I must have said something on Sunday. Yeah. I must have said something that they're like, okay, I'm out.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know? Yeah. But again, I don't judge the the quality of the sermon on the praise of the people. Right.
Speaker 2:The bible says watch out for the those who speak to to scratch itching ears. Yeah. Telling people what they wanna hear.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Don't don't tickle the ears of people. That's, you know, that's not what we're called to do. We're called to share God's truth and to navigate it. And the reality is is we're human.
Speaker 1:We're people. You and I, in any Christ follower listening, we have the holy spirit of God in us. Thank you, Jesus. And the holy spirit directs us. But we also have the reality of our humanity.
Speaker 1:And so there's going to be times when, as you said earlier, we're like, oh, man. We wish we'd have spoken out on that. Or, man, I don't know. I wish I'd have said that different. We've we've been in those situations.
Speaker 1:But I think the big big question is or the big reality is is there is a time and a place for the church to speak up. And I think what baffles me, this baffles me at times, is in the Christian circles. If we don't speak, who do we think is talking? If Christians don't enter in the void and enter in the spaces of cultural dialogue, then who else is left? It's people who don't believe in Jesus.
Speaker 1:It's people who don't read his word, don't follow god's way, that those would be the voices that are left. I just that's where I can't fathom why we would not speak.
Speaker 2:This gets to the second thing that I think is a reason, and that is our leadership voice. You know, we have a leadership voice. And the culture is so spiraling out of control. Yeah. That, like, you just said it so well, that what's left if we don't speak?
Speaker 2:Whenever there's a vacuum of leadership
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Someone will fill that vacuum. When there's a vacuum of clarity, someone will be clear.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so if, say, hot topic of trans, hot topic of same sex attraction. Mhmm. If if the church who believes in God's design for sex, one man, one woman in marriage, is not preaching one man, one woman in marriage, guess who will step into the vacuum? People who say, oh, that's outdated, that's not really what Paul meant. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:That Paul was really talking about porneia, he was really talking about the pornification, he wasn't talking about a loving relationship between two in the same sex. All these lies that are totally divorced from reality, divorced from an accurate reading of text, divorced from two thousand years of interpretation, all of a sudden they found a new interpretation, but I'm quiet.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, you know, you're just left with the one option. And guess what? Eventually, the church is gonna believe error.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Yeah. And we we have to be people who will speak into that again, dripping with love, truly. And that's the that's gotta be said again. When our heartbeat and the core reason why is is love, I love you, I love God, and I love you, and that is why I speak truth.
Speaker 1:That is such a different packaging. And there can be passion there. And there can be at times, there's a a godly, you know, righteous anger, not at people, but at what is happening and the sin that's happening. But to walk into those rooms and to speak. And when I think about that particular one of many very hot, you know, societal issues of of just gender and sexuality, God has clarity for us.
Speaker 1:He says it really clear. In Genesis chapter one and two, he talks about how he made man, and he made women, made woman, and he made them in his own image, man and woman. That's that's just ground zero one zero one. God created us male and female. He created them.
Speaker 1:And so when you come to what is such a a raging, you know, debate and issue of transgenderism in our culture, we come with that voice that God created us. We don't get to create ourselves.
Speaker 2:Clear.
Speaker 1:And there's such freedom when you can understand that there's already been a creator, and he already did the creation. And now our opportunity is just to get to know him.
Speaker 2:But the loving side of that that we advocate and the way we say it is, if you today Yeah. Are wrestling with same sex attraction. First of all, you are not gay. You are not gay. You ready for that?
Speaker 2:Somebody's just gonna take that clip. You are not gay. You have a same sex attraction. You are when you say I am gay, you are saying that's my identity. My sex is my identity.
Speaker 2:I just have to throw that out there. Your your identity is given to you by God. You are a son or a daughter of the most high God.
Speaker 1:If you know him.
Speaker 2:If you know him, you're created as a child of God. All of God's creation is has the image of God, though scarred and broken. You are I meant generally speaking. Yeah. You are a child of God in the sense of not a not not in the sense of saved, but in the sense of you are a created person with the image of God, and you are made by a God who knew you before the foundations of the earth.
Speaker 2:He determines your identity. You don't determine your identity, and you're not limited your identity to sex. That being said, here's our voice. Our voice is that it is our honor. Okay?
Speaker 2:This is the loving side Yeah. And this is our heart. If you have same sex attraction, it is our honor to walk with you. If you are feeling led to adopt a trans lifestyle, it is our honor to walk with you. If you have found Christ and you wanna detransition, it is our honor to walk with And those words, someone that both you and I know who was wrestling in a same sex and in same sex, those words turned their heart.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:Those words opened the door, and today they are years in a years living outside, rejecting same sex attraction, years living in God's design. And it's because the words that unlocked it for them, it's our honor to walk with you. We didn't lower truth. We didn't lower the standard, but they hurt our heart.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. And I have a friend that walked in a life lifestyle that was not God's design. And God got ahold of her heart, and she began following God. And then there came a season where she found herself back in the pit and found herself giving in to old temptations. And then God rescues her again, grabs her heart again.
Speaker 1:That's the beauty of the gospel. Our God chases after the one. He leaves the 99 who are solid and he'll go could go find the one. And what a privilege, again, back to your initial scripture you read, to be placed in positions of leadership with that illustration of a shepherd guarding the souls where we have the privilege to go on the ride with you. I want someone to be on the ride with me.
Speaker 1:I want there to be someone there that lift my arms when I my arms get weak. We're there for one another. And when it comes to these world issues, there's kind of two elements to the same conversation. There's the world issue and the topic and the cultural voice, which we have one response and leadership toward. And then there's the person impacted, the person who maybe has received a culture not of God, and that's a different leadership Yeah.
Speaker 1:Voice. But both are very important.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And, you know, we gotta have biblical clarity, I think, also. There there's a weight, I feel, of there's a gravitational pull in Christianity today in America to just be to really just have an encouraging voice, or to just have an exhortative voice. And I I do understand that that can be your dominant voice. Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And that's how God made you. That's kind of your calling. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Gifting.
Speaker 2:Run-in that gifting. And and even if that's not for everybody, just that gifting is not for everybody, I think that's fine. If you have a deeply prophetic voice, you need to run-in that gifting. And that's why we have such a diversity of friendships Yes. In ministry, and we're so open to a lot.
Speaker 2:But I do, I struggle about not teaching all of scripture and a lack of biblical clarity in a culture that is just so lost And confused. On what that clarity is. And there's a weight, I feel, that we feel, to have biblical clarity on the issues people are struggling with. Mhmm. We've had people literally come to us Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And say, thank you. I needed leadership.
Speaker 1:Yes. Yes.
Speaker 2:Where were they gonna turn for opinions?
Speaker 1:And we all need leadership, but the church has got to lead. And the nature of leadership is going out first. And the thing that we cannot forget is that in our culture and in our world, there's active active leadership on the other side. Yes. It's not passive.
Speaker 1:It is aggressive. It is on the move. And, again, it goes back to our enemy has a strategy, and he uses people who are far from God and lost to accomplish his goals. And I was talking with someone recently, a young mom, how she walked in the room. Her kids are just watching a fun cartoon, innocent, sweet.
Speaker 1:And she looks on the screen and there's two female characters holding each other's hands in a homosexual way. And she had this reality of my kids are just watching these sweet cartoons, but there's an agenda in the cartoon. There's a message of sexuality hitting our babies at the very youngest age. And not only are they not ready for those conversations, but it's the conversation in direct opposition to what we see in the bible and what we believe is God's best plan for our lives. And so to think there's not leadership and not a strategy on the other side of God's truth would be, again, tragically naive.
Speaker 1:And if we don't, as people, lead out in that, and if the church doesn't lead out in that, other voices will fill in the gap.
Speaker 2:So good. You know, it it's it's Matthew five, salt and light. Salt and light. Salt is a preservative, and light, it gives direction.
Speaker 1:Eliminates the dark.
Speaker 2:It eliminates the dark. It advances. Are you advancing in the dark if you're silent? You're not. You're you're just you're treading water in the dark.
Speaker 2:I believe there's a there's a there is a time to exhort, and to encourage, and to build. But I've just come to the to the conclusion, and I think this is the pattern of the gospel. This is the pattern of the gospel. You gotta know the bad news before you get to the good news. You have to have correction before you have encouragement.
Speaker 2:And it is it is also our understanding of sin nature, that sin grows, and it'll occupy the space that you leave behind. So we need to be salt. We need to preserve good functioning government by getting engaged. We need to preserve our families by speaking about issues that are taking them out. We need to be a preservative.
Speaker 2:And, if you if those young kids are sitting there, they need to hear a regular diet of preaching that is preservative. But also that is illuminating and engaging with the ideas that they're encountering. And this leads to another issue, the young generation. This was a big one for us, that our kids, all of our kids have been through public school. And that's a choice we made.
Speaker 2:We prayed about it constantly. God, for each child, do you want them in public school? Do you want them in private school? What what's your what's your direction?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And every one of them, God placed them in public school. That was the right choice. It was a good choice for us. It was it was right on the money for us. But I would encourage you to pray about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:With that said Kid
Speaker 1:to kid, year to year.
Speaker 2:Kid to kid, year to year, and they would come back, and the things that they had questions about
Speaker 1:Oh, boy.
Speaker 2:If I was not engaging them with these questions. Our kids, our kids who aren't missing a Sunday, our kids who are there every Wednesday night with students, our kids had these questions, and we still had to engage them. I'm like, man, if if we didn't engage these questions, there's no hope.
Speaker 1:Oh, no. I remember our firstborn daughter, and we'd probably tell this story over and over again. You know, you got your story, so you're gonna hear it multiple times on the Overflow. But I remember her in third grade, this little bitty girl coming home from school and asking me, mommy, what is sex gay? She didn't know how to say the question correctly.
Speaker 1:And we had not yet talked about the birds and the bees and the conversation of sex and what how baby where do babies come from? And we were completely bypassing that question of where do babies come from. Mommy, what is sex gay? And at her little lunch table, one of the girls had two moms and was talking about some of the sexual stuff that she's heard about. And here's my daughter trying to process that.
Speaker 1:That is a real example of things that you guys, parenting your kids, you may be experiencing right now, or you better get ready. And if I just if I just, you know, it's too awkward or I don't know how to respond or I don't have all the answers or I just kinda duck and dodge that moment, I'm losing my child because that daughter, that son is coming to you for answers, and it's the same in the church. You've got a whole generation of people that are asking questions. Who's going to have the answer?
Speaker 2:Mainline denominations are crashing and burning. They're declining in their in their attendance. They're declining in their baptisms. They're declining in their theological fidelity, most of them. And I believe that what the enemy the enemy has a strategy to take the local church and have it resemble more like a Christian college that left behind its Christian distinctives long ago.
Speaker 2:I'm very grateful for Christian universities that have held on to their Christian distinctives, and we love these schools. And, you know, there's some great schools out there that still love the word of God, love the ways of God. My brother is a president of Oklahoma Baptist University, loves the way of God, word of God, Oral Roberts University. All of our kids have gone to schools that love the word of God, the ways of God. Oral Roberts University, Grand Canyon University, Oklahoma Baptist University, and now we have a child Southeastern.
Speaker 2:Southeastern University that we believe holds up the word of God and way of God. And so but but then you go we we took a college tour. And I'm not gonna say the school unless I really am feeling naughty. But but it was it was a school that has a long Christian heritage and a long Christian tradition, and we were on the on the tour, and they were apologizing to us parents Yeah. For Christian in their name, for Christian in their legacy.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:They were saying, oh, you can be as Christian as you want to be here.
Speaker 1:Yeah. The word Christian can mean as little or as much as you want it to.
Speaker 2:Yeah. We And were like, okay, this is not for us. No. And I think that's the destination. And what you do is you go to these schools that have Christian in their name, and they're noth, there's no Christian in there.
Speaker 2:There's nothing there.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:I believe that's the destiny of the church, if we stay out of it. Oh, absolutely. If we're quiet about it. And you become so squishy, so soft on truth, then you have squishy, soft believers. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And eventually, the young generation is is is not interested. Ultimately, they won't attend church. Mhmm. They won't come to church. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:There's nothing there for them Yeah. If there's not truth.
Speaker 1:Yeah. What would you say are some practical ways that we we make decisions on what to post or what to speak on, you know, just practically speaking? And, also, I you know, maybe another thing we could talk about that I find interesting is we see a lot of different ways people handle this issue on their own personal accounts. And some of them, you know, there's a strength there, and and then literally, they're doing what we're talking about. They're leading out with their voice, their platform, honoring the Lord.
Speaker 1:And then others, it's just a train wreck.
Speaker 2:What do you mean by train wreck?
Speaker 1:The things that you see on social media when people get so angry and so, just the way that they, quote, speak their voice, it's just mess. It's just a mess.
Speaker 2:Relationally messy. More to know what
Speaker 1:you're doing. Well, I'm trying to
Speaker 2:be I am sorry.
Speaker 1:I don't need
Speaker 2:to talk
Speaker 1:about Okay. I'll give case studies. How about this? There will be a person who truly you know, conspiracy theory is a hot topic. What's a conspiracy theory?
Speaker 1:And when is that conspiracy actually true? But you'll still see people that gets more consumed with their opinion on social events than they are with the word of God.
Speaker 2:Okay. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it begins to consume them.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And they begin to, again, harbor offenses at people who don't believe what they believe. There's an anger in their tone.
Speaker 2:Well, they don't speak on every single thing. Yeah. You know, I I would say that we have had to really I think a trap, here's the way I would say it. A trap is when you begin, and this is really for Christian leaders, but it's probably for everybody. A trap is when you begin to say, okay, did they speak on it?
Speaker 2:Okay, I need to speak on it. You're constantly judging yourself by others. Yeah. I think that is a trap. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:That's a massive trap that tells me, and it's good to see others and learn from others, and we do that all the time.
Speaker 1:The right voices.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're encouraged by others, convicted by others, they take, that maybe somebody has a take, and you're like, wow, I love how they handled that. Man, God, would you I just wanna reaffirm that, so I'll repost them.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Or whatever. But, or they they said it better than I could.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:You know, I I would love to have been so insightful, but they they beat me to it. There that was better. Yeah. So let's just repost them. But at the end of the day, you gotta have discernment, and you have to figure out what's our voice on this thing.
Speaker 2:And one of the things that I think, you know, you go to the word of God, you go to the ways of God, all that stuff. You go to young generation. One more thing about young generation, by the way, that I meant to say, and it slipped my mind. I've had so many parents come to me and say, thank you for partnering with me. I'm out there telling my kids God's way, and I have no support, and then I bring them to Keystone, and you're supporting me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so we just have the heart for that young generation in partnering with parents. Deeply. So that's one of the filters is, am I partnering with parents? Am I partnering with, are the kid are the parents teaching in their home what is right, what is good? And they're getting no support in the culture.
Speaker 2:I wanna support them. Yes. Another one is, I how am I leading right now? Am I leading Keystone in the direction I wanna go? Is this something I wanna talk about?
Speaker 2:You can't talk about everything.
Speaker 1:That's the truth. You can't talk about everything.
Speaker 2:Really can't.
Speaker 1:All of sudden, the church becomes the the news.
Speaker 2:Well, and we're not we we are not a news agency.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:We're We're not daily podcasting. That's really not who we are right now.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Some people, that is who they are, and I expect them to speak about it. Yeah. Every single thing.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:But for us, because our calling is pastoring
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:That's our calling.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And we gather to worship weekly. Mhmm. And God may have given me something else to talk about. Like, say, it's Mother's Day that Sunday. There's some things I'm not gonna talk about on Mother's Day.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:I'm just God doesn't give me a freedom. I'm not gonna address that on Mother's Day.
Speaker 1:And I've had someone get angry with me because I didn't talk about something on Mother's Day years ago.
Speaker 2:Really?
Speaker 1:Yes. They had an agenda. They wanted it to be said. There was a current event that happened, and they were so upset
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That I wouldn't talk about that dark thing on Mother's Day.
Speaker 2:And and even we have a record of talking about that dark thing.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Like, it's not like we're crickets.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:You know? So I think that that's one of the big things is how am I partnering with parents? I think it's a big filter for you and me that we feel a burden to partner with parents for their kids. That there we're another voice for their kids. Because you know how it is.
Speaker 2:You say the same thing, and they just tune you out. Someone else says the same thing.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:All of sudden, they hear it. So we wanna be that extra voice.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:I think another thing that has just I actually wrote this down earlier. I think god just dropped it in my mind, and it's so true. We do this, but I found language for it. Is there's kind of a scale of severity. There's a scale of severity.
Speaker 1:That's true.
Speaker 2:And we have to use our discernment to try to evaluate on this issue, what's the scale of severity?
Speaker 1:Yeah. This is practical. This is very practical. Yeah. The scale of severity.
Speaker 2:Talk about that.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah. I think so many events are happening all the time, and there's some that are so weighty or so culturally shaking that we have to to truly evaluate and say, you know, I think our voice is needed here. However, there could be other moments where, yes, that's a weighty thing. That's heavy. But we we feel like that's not we as we pray, as we try to discern, okay, we have another thing more weighty, or we have another direction, more more where God is leading us.
Speaker 1:We're not gonna speak at that time.
Speaker 2:I'll I'll give you some real practical insider on scale severity, how I make that decision. Yeah. Okay? And I know you're gonna wanna jump in on this. But, okay, some things are crystal clear, evil wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah. There's not another side, there's not another opinion, there's nothing you can say to justify it. Mhmm. Crystal clear evil. And and one of the ultimates is abortion.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Okay? Gang violence. Crystal clear evil. Okay?
Speaker 2:But there are other topics. Okay, so you're outraged on this topic. Okay, so someone is outraged. Alright? And someone Or there may be an issue that that some parts of the church are just outraged on, and it's hot, and it is popping.
Speaker 2:And I'll look at that topic, and I'll say, okay, how clear is this issue? Yeah. How clear is it? Mhmm. Is there another side to it?
Speaker 2:Mhmm. You know, a good example would be war. Okay? Alright. So how clear is this issue?
Speaker 2:Is there another side to this issue? Like, for instance, the war in Iran. Okay? There's a side of me that totally and completely understands no new wars. I don't wanna and especially with our history, how Iraq ended up, and the ending of Afghanistan, and those images of people, you know, clinging to the plane as it takes off, these are are we're just defined by these images.
Speaker 2:Yet there there is a part of me that doesn't trust Iran with a nuclear weapon. Mhmm. And there's a part of me that understands their Islamic ideology. There's a part of me that understands that the god that the church in Iran is begging for freedom. The fastest growing underground church in the world is begging for freedom, and they are all in favor of us freeing them.
Speaker 2:So there's all these things. And so Yeah. I'm touching on a topic here that is complex. Layers. Another way to say it is sometimes when I hear people trying to be clear on an issue, and the way that they're clear is almost sounds like you're in a class.
Speaker 2:It's real academic. It's real headnology. They start to use terms that you've never used before to define it. You know? And you're like, yeah.
Speaker 2:That doesn't make sense. Or, yeah. I I I feel like that I'm in this highly philosophical conversation, and you're coming at something with 100 that is highly debatable. And so I would I would prefer to just put it on the scale of severity. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Okay. Let's let's test the purity of your gold. You know, maybe your gold is only 50% pure. Maybe the purity of that diamond is like sparkling clear. I mean, it is like abortion crystal clear.
Speaker 2:There's no way. There's no way. Okay? Well, there's other debates that, you know, I see you smiling. You're thinking of something.
Speaker 2:Come on. Bring it. Help me.
Speaker 1:Can I talk about that meme where Trump looked like he was Jesus?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Let's go.
Speaker 1:Okay. So that
Speaker 2:Let's do it.
Speaker 1:Was an example where we did not publicly post. Although now that I am talking about it, here we are. Yeah. But the reality is that was one of those examples where all over social media that was being posted. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I could I will say for me, when I saw that image, oh my goodness, that's so offensive.
Speaker 2:Thought it was stupid.
Speaker 1:It was so dumb. Yeah. You are not Jesus, and you look like you're in a Jesus robe, and there's a halo,
Speaker 2:and The there's explanation was worse.
Speaker 1:Like Well
Speaker 2:Like, I'm a I was a doctor. And I'm like, the funniest part were the memes that came out that showed him entering a doctor's room.
Speaker 1:Yes. And all the doctors are in a scrub, and and he walks in to, like, sign into his post
Speaker 2:and he's
Speaker 1:dressed like Jesus. I mean, you know, but he's with all the doctors. I mean, just ridiculous. And so, yes, that's that was that's a highly offensive picture. But we did not feel compelled to post that on level of severity and just honestly, Lord, what are you leading?
Speaker 1:What are what is our voice? Where's our voice? And sure enough, out comes other information that that had been a meme created a long time ago that they had taken and redone Yeah. Re reworked. And Trump, you know, he's saying that wasn't my motive.
Speaker 1:I never dreamed I am Jesus. And I'm not his god. I don't know what's inside of his heart. I can certainly say, hey. Let's use better taste next time, and it would have been great, president Trump, if you could have apologized.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Even you know, just say, hey. I am sorry. That was not my heart. I'm taking it down.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, I I am sorry for the offense it created. That would have been
Speaker 2:That's what we want.
Speaker 1:Credible. That's what we want. But that would be an example of when we're trying to filter, what do we respond to and what do we Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, on that one, it was for me, I was not I mean, like, I was like, that's a for me, was just like, that's so dumb. What are you doing? You know? Yeah. And and I believe it was something someone else created is from what I remember the explanation.
Speaker 2:It doesn't matter. You I know this. I'm responsible ultimately, even if I have someone else that posts something for me or With that said, I felt like that the church the church did what the church needed to do. The outrage was immediate. The outrage was loud.
Speaker 2:The outrage was universal. And, you know, I do believe that it's important that the church does press back against things that are unbiblical, and it kinda was a good check Mhmm. You know, for the administration that, you know, the evangelical conservative church is not going to just say yes. To me, I was like, well, it worked. Mean, here Yeah.
Speaker 2:For everybody who believes that the evangelical church is just 100% in alignment with Trump, will let them do anything, say anything, To me, that was the ultimate shining moment.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. That I'm
Speaker 2:like, well, this is an example of wrong. And there are others. We have spoken on several occasions against things that we disagreed with in in the administration. There's things that we wish that they would go further in. There's wish there's things that we wish that they would not go so far in.
Speaker 2:And and we speak on those things using our discernment.
Speaker 1:And I can remember a post that I made when Biden began his administration, and it was so appalling to me. I re I still remember it. I don't remember the date. I guess you have to go look at my feed or maybe it was the stories. But it is when our government, and I believe it was congress, yeah, you know, house of representatives, I think, began to change their policies.
Speaker 1:Is that right, or was it simple?
Speaker 2:Yeah. On the on the gender language,
Speaker 1:it was
Speaker 2:the house of representatives.
Speaker 1:You can no longer say grandmother, grandfather. Can say grandparent. You can no longer say mother, father. You could say parent.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And on that one, I wanted I believe I posted on that because I wanted people to understand this is happening.
Speaker 1:This is grave.
Speaker 2:This is And it's happening. You don't know it's happening. Yes. And I wanna speak and make sure you know it's happening.
Speaker 1:And the timeline, if you go back, was right in sync with the ushering in of this transgender rage
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:In our society. Yep. And you talk and to your whole point on leadership, when leadership ushers in godless ideology, the people will follow.
Speaker 2:So so on the Trump thing, I felt like there was universal agreement, and my voice wasn't gonna add a thing other than, hey, everybody, see what I believe, and and kinda just playing to the crowd. Yeah. And that just and and and then there's kind of a pile on, and there's a there's a little bit of a, oh, here's our chance to kick Trump, you know, or kick whatever, and I I just wasn't interested in that either.
Speaker 1:But Yeah.
Speaker 2:So that that's that example of how we used our discernment. And honestly, you could look back and say, hey, maybe we should have said something to join the chorus of outrage, or or resistance, or disagreement. But at the end But the day
Speaker 1:clarity for me was was lacking because there's new
Speaker 2:leadership on that. It was self evident. Mhmm. There was no leadership needed. So back to the scale of severity.
Speaker 2:When is something clear? When is something clear? And when is something murky? When is something debatable? And when is something absolutely clear?
Speaker 2:And a lot of people want want Christians and conservative Christians to be clear on things that are murky. They're highly debatable. Mhmm. And I'm just not gonna plant my flag there. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I may say, here's my opinion, but I'm not gonna plant my flag there. And so how else do we we seek wise counsel. There are times where we'll say, hey, how's the before I post, we'll we'll take a look around with voices that we trust. Hey, what do you think about this? Am I have I lost my mind?
Speaker 2:You know, this what I believe, but the how is it sounding right? Is my heart here?
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. The higher the stakes, the better to get wise counsel, and wise counsel being people who love Jesus and know his word. And the bible says if you you don't go out to war without wise counsel. You have you have wise counsel. And, I mean, if we don't think this is a war, I don't know what we're thinking.
Speaker 1:Because ultimately, this is a war for souls. And when we talk about leadership and where are we going and why do we speak out on things in the culture, it's because there is a war and God wants victory for us, but the enemy's clear. He wants to steal, kill, and destroy. And so having wise counsel is a big part of everything we do, including when we speak on high, high, hot topic issues.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So our filter is, how am I helping partner with parents? Am I is there silence that I need to speak? Scale of severity, is this a highly debated issue? Is there really great sides?
Speaker 2:Then I just have to make a call.
Speaker 1:Is there great confusion in the body? Is there great confusion in the body of Christ?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Or is is the evangelical Here's a big one for me. Is the evangelical church biting, and swallowing, and eating, and consuming something that is false?
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:And there's a good chunk that's not, but there's a good chunk that is. I feel like I need to teach, oh no, no, don't go near that, that's toxic. And so scale of severity, how are we partnering with parents? How are we being faithful to the word of God? Are we walking in the fear of the Lord?
Speaker 2:And then at some point, we may get it wrong.
Speaker 1:Because we're human.
Speaker 2:We're human. And we'll post when we shouldn't, and we don't when we should, and we just walk with that. It's the world that we're in. But our heart now, you've heard it.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:This is our heart. And at the end of the day, I pray that that we're raising up a biblically faithful generation who loves the word of God, can look at the culture, and rightly understand our place in that culture, can spot the truth from a lie, can spot what God creates and how Satan is counterfeiting. And in doing so, with our voice, we're raising up a remnant who will love Jesus Mhmm. And will spread the gospel of Jesus Christ and give our culture a fighting chance. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:So
Speaker 1:With that.
Speaker 2:With
Speaker 1:that. Thanks for joining the conversation. We can't wait to have another one on The Overflow.