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HPE news. Tech insights. World-class innovations. We take you straight to the source — interviewing tech's foremost thought leaders and change-makers that are propelling businesses and industries forward.
Alysha Kempson Taylor (00:10):
Hello and welcome back to Technology Now, a weekly show from Hewlett-Packard Enterprise, where we take what's happening in the world and explore how it's changing the way organizations are using technology. We're your hosts, Alysha Kempson Taylor in for Aubrey Lovell.
Michael Bird (00:23):
And Michael Bird.
(00:25):
Yep. Unfortunately, Aubrey is going to be away for the next few episodes as she's dealing with some severe weather in Florida. But fortunately, Alysha, you were able to step in last minute. So thank you so much for doing that.
(00:37):
Right. Let's talk about this episode. And in this episode we are looking at something completely new for Technology Now, how the tech industry is tackling the concept of modern day slavery. Forced labor is a well-known problem, especially when it comes to human trafficking and work in so-called sweatshops in the garment industry. But what's not been so widely known about until recently is the use of forced labor in parts of the tech supply chain. It's something that we as tech organizations are having to get a handle on and tackle fast.
Alysha Kempson Taylor (01:10):
In this episode, we'll be exploring how widespread the issue is. We'll also be looking at what's being done to stop it, and we'll be asking what tech companies can do to ensure their supply chain is clean when it comes to forced labor. It's such an important topic. So if you are the kind of person who needs to know why what's going on in the world matters to your organization, this is the podcast for you.
(01:32):
Oh, and if you haven't yet, subscribe to your podcast app of choice so you don't miss out.
(01:37):
Right. Let's get into it.
Michael Bird (01:39):
Let's do it.
(01:42):
So in 2016, the United Nations challenged world leaders to tackle modern slavery through Target 8.7 of their sustainable development goals. The target called on countries to take immediate and effective measures to eradicate modern slavery by 2025, though that was later extended to 2030. We've got more on that in the show notes.
(02:06):
However, research by the International Labor Organization or ILO has found that numbers have actually been increasing, and fast. 10 million or more people were in modern slavery globally in 2021 compared to 2016. Women and children remain disproportionately vulnerable, and it's not a problem confined to the developing world. Over half of modern day slaves live in wealthier countries.
Alysha Kempson Taylor (02:34):
Yes, it's often assumed that most slavery happens within the adult industry. In fact, it's less than a quarter. 63% happens in other industries, and 14% in government imposed forced labor. We've linked to that report in the show notes.
(02:49):
Those are awful statistics, but supply lines are hard to monitor and it can be difficult to pick apart the long supply chain from say mine to microchip. So what can we do?
(02:58):
Joining us today to discuss is Lisa Kristine. She's a humanitarian photographer and the founder of Human Thread Foundation, which aims to raise awareness of modern slavery. She's also been working closely with HPE on the issue.
(03:12):
Hi Lisa, welcome to the podcast.
Michael Bird (03:14):
So Lisa, how did you and the Human Thread Foundation get involved with the issue of modern slavery?
Lisa Kristine (03:21):
Well, my overall body of work, it's been made over the last 40 plus years in over 150 countries. And that body of work is really about inspiring unity and dignity, the notion that in our differences, we are one. Because of that body of work, I had been asked to be the exhibitor at the Global Peace Summit in Vancouver, hosted by his Holiness the Dalai Lama and other Nobel laureates. And it was there that I was approached by an advocate to an anti-slavery advocate basically.
(03:55):
And that was about 15 or 18 years ago. But I had virtually no idea that slavery was happening. I certainly knew like many that some trafficking was occurring, but I assumed that to be specifically sex trafficking. And I also assumed it to be in very small numbers. But when I learned that at that time there was some 27 million people enslaved, I was very taken aback. And of course today that's over 50 million really, because the beneath 50 million is very conservative.
(04:29):
So that sort of alerted me, and I remember specifically thinking two things. One was I had this feeling of shame because here it is, my whole occupation is based on observing and seeing others, and yet I totally missed slavery. And second, I thought, well, if I don't know about this, how many others don't know?
(04:49):
Well, after many years of documenting modern day slavery around the world, I founded the Human Thread Foundation, which is dedicated to the eradication of slavery. And we do that through ethical visual storytelling, educational platforms, and preventative measure in interactive exhibitions where we can get in front of certainly lay people, but also educators and community leaders, as well as policymakers, and governmental officials, and heads of state.
Alysha Kempson Taylor (05:24):
Are we generally talking about trafficked people here, or people held in waged slavery or indentured labor where they've essentially signed abusive contracts?
Lisa Kristine (05:32):
It can show itself in so many different ways, whether it's in brick kilns, or gold mines, or in the textile industry, or the construction industry, which consists of wood, and glass, and metals. And really what constitutes slavery in my mind is somebody who has been lied to, and exploited, and forced against their will to do a forced occupation, of course, and really is under the threat of violence and doesn't have the ability to walk away.
(06:07):
Nowadays, we don't really think of slavery having to do with chains. It's really has to do with a mental chain because it's often enduring the threat to oneself if one were to leave this space of confinement, or threats to people that people love. Yes, so it's a very large swathe of spectrum.
Michael Bird (06:26):
You mentioned the front lines a minute ago and how you visit these sites in your effort to confront slavery. When it comes to modern slavery in that tech supply chain specifically, what exactly does that look like?
Lisa Kristine (06:37):
In the tech supply chain of modern slavery, we're dealing with a lot of different minerals that are used for technology, including tin and cobalt, aluminum, and so forth. But there's also people in the workplace that are putting together these components, and equally so the distribution and those who are cleaning up the waste, if you will. And all of these things are rather dangerous, and hazardous, and people are forced to work in that without any protection.
Michael Bird (07:12):
If it's okay, could you talk us through some of what you've seen?
Lisa Kristine (07:15):
I went hundreds of feet down these illegal gold mines that descend into the earth directly below, and that's certainly within the technology supply chain directly. And they are held together by these very slick tree limbs. And you have to imagine that because they're illegal, they of course have been either made without any structuring that's good, or they were abandoned from previously legal mines. And they're very slippery. It's very hot beneath. And they're not aerated, they're not protected, they collapse, and they're highly dangerous.
(07:49):
And these guys, when they go down there, they carry more or less three things. One is a bag in the hopes of filling it with stone containing gold. They have primitive tools and a cheap flashlight that's tethered to their head with these elastic bands. And when they go down there, they're intended to stay down there for 48 to 72 hours at a time, so that when they come out of those mines and surface back to the earth, the top of the ground, if it would be, they're soaking wet because of the human sweat and the moist heat of the belly of the earth.
(08:28):
So these occupations, if you were, whenever someone falls under the hands of a trafficker, they're often forced to do illegal activities that are hazardous and dangerous. And beyond that, they're not treated as victims of a crime. They're usually treated as criminals, so it's all-around bad situation.
Alysha Kempson Taylor (08:47):
So when you go and photograph these sites, what's the reaction like by people on the ground, both the victims of slavery, and the site owners and managers?
Lisa Kristine (08:55):
Well, as you might imagine, when I am coming into one of these situations on the front lines of slavery, they don't put out the red carpet for me. I am brought in very strategically by abolitionists or advocates, if you will, that are working intimately around a certain type of forced labor in a certain area.
(09:17):
So a group of people that would bring me into the gold mines would be people that are working undercover within that particular area. And because of that, they provide relationships with the people and a trust that is there. Equally so, they're on the phones deciding exactly when it is I can enter to do this work.
(09:39):
And the work is done very quickly, so over the many years I've been documenting slavery, the amounts of time that I'm in any particular situation could be as small as five minutes or as big as 20 minutes, or it's usually not very long because of the lack of safety, not only for myself, but really for those people that I'm photographing.
Michael Bird (10:00):
Have you ever felt in danger or felt that you had to, I don't know, get out quickly?
Lisa Kristine (10:05):
So again, it's a lot about speed. And when I go in, I usually have, again, those abolitionists, or activists, or the people that are working undercover, they're with me. So one person will be by my side and there'll be some people on the outlies of the area. And they're all communicating with each other because I am very, very immersed in focusing on making images. And I get very lost in that actually.
(10:29):
But yes, they are dangerous situations, and there have been times where we'd have to definitely run and drive like a bat out of hell to get out of there. And situations in Ghana where I had to hide in these illegal gold mines when security had gotten whiff that I was around. But I have good instincts. I don't play stupid, I play very smart, and try to keep my wits about me, of course.
Alysha Kempson Taylor (10:57):
Thanks so much, Lisa. There are some amazing insights in there, and it's a hugely important and very moving story. And I'm really proud that we're able to give it some much needed attention.
(11:07):
We'll be back with you in just a moment, so don't go anywhere.
(11:13):
Right then, now it's time for Today I Learned, the part of the show where we take a look at something happening in the world that we think you should know about. And today it's one from you, Michael.
Michael Bird (11:23):
Yes, it is. Thank you, Alysha. And this one is extremely cool. Researchers from Germany have performed the first surgery using swarm robotics. So a team of cancer researchers based in Dresden has created a train of tiny wheeled robots that gang together to carry an endoscopic wire and surgical instruments through the intestines in order to get to hard to reach areas which are difficult and dangerous in normal surgical procedures.
(11:55):
In the test, which was performed on pig intestines, a train of three one millimeter wide robots controlled by a rapidly rotating magnetic field outside the patient were engaged to work together in sync. The bots carried an electronic surgical tool, which would be far too heavy to move if they were operating alone, down into the pig's bile duct, an area which is very tricky to get to using traditional endoscopy. The robots then removed the blockage using the instrument, which cut it away and sealed any damage using electrical currents.
(12:30):
And it's thought that robots on this scale working in swarms could make difficult and risky operations far safer and more routine, improving outcomes in operations such as tumor removal and heart surgery. So that is pretty cool.
Alysha Kempson Taylor (12:45):
Yes, that is truly awesome. Thanks for that, Michael.
(12:50):
Now it is time to return to our guests, Lisa Kristine, to talk about tech and modern slavery.
(12:55):
You've obviously partnered with HPE. Why is that and what does that partnership really look like?
Lisa Kristine (13:01):
Well, I think there's an enormous opportunity here with HPE. Years ago I was on a board of an anti-slavery award, and I was so moved by an enormous tech company like HPE, willing and daring to look into their own supply chains. I mean, it's just so intriguing to me.
(13:24):
When I was asked to join HPE by Princess Eugenie in Davos, I feel like we were able to have a really powerful impact. In fact, there's a lot of studies that show that people make decisions based not off of data or statistic, but actually from an emotional unconscious space. And I think the marriage, if you will, between a company like HPE who is so well-directed, and coming together with what I'm doing, which is very ethical visual storytelling, we have the power to really ignite change.
(13:59):
And so as an example, at the World Economic Forum in Davos, we had an art installation as well as a talk around modern-day slavery. And we were able to viscerally connect with people as well as impart information that is so vital to awareness-building and actionable change. And I feel just really honored and proud to be partnering with HPE on this.
Michael Bird (14:25):
An exhibition of your photography is being featured at HPE's Houston Customer Innovation Center. What do you hope that that will inspire?
Lisa Kristine (14:34):
Well, I'm really excited about this. And what I hope to inspire is for people to look at the humanity, the human beings, our brothers and sisters in these photographs, and connect with them so that they too will want to be a part of this effort to make change.
(14:53):
The one thing that a photograph allows for is that it transcends language and it has that power to viscerally impact someone. Again, I think that there's a lot of power there to prime somebody, if you will, to give them the opportunity to really feel that person and see their dignity no matter how dire the situation they're forced to be in, that environment that they're forced to be in is. And I'm really excited about the response that I'm sure we will garner from the viewers going through there. I'm just so thrilled.
Alysha Kempson Taylor (15:28):
Do you think that the industry at large is taking this problem seriously enough?
Lisa Kristine (15:32):
I think HPE is, and I am just so motivated by HPE. And I actually have a great hope that not only is HPE a hero in this endeavor of taking it so seriously, but it's actually a shining example that will definitively inspire other big tech companies to do the same. And that to me is extremely rewarding.
Michael Bird (15:58):
So I guess it seems that often modern slavery could be hidden in plain sight in the supply chain. What actions can the tech industry take to address this?
Lisa Kristine (16:09):
I think the rest of the tech industry can start learning about technology and the supply chain, and then train its employees and different level tier suppliers, and do audits, but also spontaneous audits, and start putting pressure on suppliers, give them the opportunity to make things right when they find slavery in the supply chain, but also perhaps to cut the ties with those who are unwilling or unable to make those reparations.
Michael Bird (16:44):
So our last question is usually, why should our audience care about this topic? The human side of that story I think is pretty clear, but why should the tech industry be focusing on the issue of modern slavery?
Lisa Kristine (16:55):
Well, technology is such a fast and enormous growing industry that garners billions of dollars. And if we are having our successes in all of our products, but it's really off of the backs of people that don't have a choice, and who are being exploited and harmed, well then to me that's not a worthy venture.
(17:17):
Everyone should have the opportunity to be treated equally, and everybody should have the opportunity to win in their own way, including workers at each part of the supply chain. And I feel so strongly about that. I feel also that we are all born wherever we are born, into whatever situation, out of perhaps luck. And having been in front of people and spent time with people that are enduring such a tragedy, I'll tell you, I feel like these are our brothers and sisters, and with a little different luck that could have happened to us, it could be us, it could be our children, and we owe it to one another to help one another.
Michael Bird (18:02):
Lisa, thank you so much. It's been great to talk. And you can find more information on the topics discussed in today's episode in the show notes.
(18:13):
Right. We are getting towards the end of the show, which means it is time for This Week in History, a look at monumental events in the world of business and technology which has changed our lives.
(18:25):
Now Alysha, what was last week's clue?
Alysha Kempson Taylor (18:30):
Yes, the clue last week was, it's the year 2000, and this home is remote, but the views are worth it. Did you get it?
Michael Bird (18:40):
I thought it was something to do with a TV remote. Have I got it right?
Alysha Kempson Taylor (18:44):
Well, we'll see. It was of course the launch of the Soyuz TM-31 and its crew Expedition 1, so no.
Michael Bird (18:45):
So no.
Alysha Kempson Taylor (18:55):
They were the first cosmonauts to perform a long duration stay on the newly launched and far from complete International Space Station. The crew who blasted off from a launchpad in Kazakhstan in Central Asia consisted of two Russians and one American. Incredibly, the ISS has been manned ever since, with over 270 people having followed in their pioneering footsteps. Awesome.
Michael Bird (19:20):
It really is. Thank you, Alysha.
(19:21):
And the clue for next week is, it's 1954 and we all tuned in for this product launch. I've not got a clue.
Alysha Kempson Taylor (19:33):
That brings us to the end of Technology Now for this week. Thank you to our guest, Lisa Kristine, founder of The Human Thread Foundation, and to you. Thank you so much for joining us.
Michael Bird (19:44):
This episode of Technology Now was hosted by Alysha Kempson Taylor, and myself, Michael Bird.
(19:49):
And Technology Now is produced by Sam Datta-Paulin with production support from Harry Morton, Zoe Anderson, Aubrey Lovell, Alison Paisley, Alyssa Mitri, and Camilla Patel.
Alysha Kempson Taylor (19:58):
Our social editorial team is Rebecca Whissinger, Judy Ann Goldman, Katie Guarino. And our social media designers are Alejandra Garcia, Carlos Alberto Suarez, and Ambar Maldonado.
Michael Bird (20:10):
Technology Now is a Lower Street production for Hewlett Packard Enterprise.
(20:14):
We'll see you same time, same place next week. Cheers.