We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism

Welcome to the married church lady club, where the hymnals weigh a ton, the expectations are impossibly high, and the pressure to be the "perfect wife" is a full-time job. In this episode, Alyssa is talking about what it’s really like to be married in the church. For many women in church, it feels like getting married means you "made it," but the demands keep piling up. And the advice from other married women? Let's just say our Feminist brains struggled with this one. If you're married, in church, and tired of not finding a community that gets what an equal partnership looks like, you’re in the right place. Join us!

What is We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism?

We are Alyssa and Bri, two sisters who believe God wants more for women than we've been taught. Join us as we dive into the intersection of faith and feminism, learning together as we go.

Welcome to the We Are More podcast.

My name is Alyssa.

And my name is Bri.

We are two sisters passionate about all things faith and feminism.

We believe that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach His

word.

And apparently that's controversial.

Get comfy.

Hello!

Is it me you're looking for?

I don't think so.

Good.

So, when this episode comes out Bri, guess where we will be?

Oh, the moon!

Ah yes.

We've been planning this trip to the moon for some time now.

I've always been scared of the moon.

Like just in general you see it in the sky and you're like, woo!

I had nightmares as a child that my kindergarten class was gonna go on a field trip to the

moon and it was like a reoccurring nightmare.

I'm gonna go ahead and blame that on the Magic School Bus.

It must have been.

That sounds right.

I was so scared.

But we're not gonna be on the moon.

No, because that's silly, Brianna.

Silly me.

We will be in Disney!

Disney!

Hooray!

Huzzah!

So we're pre-recording several episodes.

I think I've mentioned that before because I just I don't think I can manage to edit

a full episode while hanging out with Mickey Mouse.

I'm not hanging out with Mickey Mouse.

That kind of scares me.

We are going to a surprising amount of character meals because we've got three kids going with

us and I'm sure they will have a great time.

But can I just say as an introvert with like a whole bunch of social anxiety, that is my

worst nightmare.

I hate hate hate when the characters come up and want to interact with you and I know that's

their job but I hate it.

I like to see them from afar.

Yeah, in a distance.

Like when Pooh is over and he's trying to capture butterflies.

That's very cute.

He's so cute but I don't want to go near him.

No.

Because that's a person.

The one positive is because we have all the kids with us, they focus on the kids.

And we just sort of sit in the back and you do a quick little wave like, hey Mickey.

And you wave.

You're so fine, you blow my mind.

Hey Mickey.

I don't think that's about Mickey Mouse.

I have no idea what it's about.

Frankly, I don't either and it's very confusing to me.

But I'm super excited that by the time this premieres, like we're that close by the time

this premieres.

As we are recording this, we are two weeks away.

Yeah.

So right at this moment based on the time of week, I don't know where we'll be.

You guys can all be jealous or you can join us.

I don't know.

You can come along.

But you probably won't know that much what we look like because this is a podcast.

It's like how old radio people, you didn't know who your favorite radio personalities

were because you never saw them.

My favorite radio personality was always Teddy Roosevelt.

Did you know that the Queen used to do like a...

Yeah.

Yes, I know.

I love the Queen.

Audrey knows much about the Queen.

I love the Queen.

You love the former Queen.

Yeah.

I don't want to insult any of our Brits that are listening, but Queen Elizabeth, I miss

you.

I don't think that would insult them as a rule.

I think she was generally pretty well liked.

She was very cute.

Has anybody else watched The Crown?

I can't bring myself to watch the last couple episodes right now of the most current season.

Do they kill her off?

That just really hurt my feelings the way you said that.

It just seems really dark.

Why wouldn't they stop before that happens?

No, they haven't killed her off.

I'm not nearly as invested in the royal family as my sister and my mother.

So sorry.

And your grandmother and your aunt.

All the people, they are quite invested.

Anyway.

Welcome to another episode of We Are More.

And if I had some background radio noises, I would make them like we're in the 1940s.

Did that help?

No, that was worse.

Sorry.

Last week, no, two weeks ago, in one of our previous episodes.

I have no idea.

We talked about singleness in the church.

Bree led that one for us.

I did.

You're welcome.

We just edited it, so Bree, were you proud of yourself?

Did you have wise things to say?

I feel like I was mostly wise and I feel like I was a little bit aggressive.

That sounds on par for everything that we do.

Yeah.

So today we're going to talk about being married in the church, not like a marriage ceremony

in the church, but like being a married woman within the context of the church.

A Christian married woman.

Yeah.

What that means for you.

Yeah.

So we're going to talk a little bit more of my story.

I don't know a lot about that.

Unless Bree has something she hasn't told us yet.

Brianna, secret marriages.

Yes.

I married to the prince.

Oh, wow.

Of where?

Anyway, that'll be our new transition.

Elissa has to just say anyway.

Anyway.

We haven't brought that one up in a while.

So if you haven't listened to our first episode where we kind of told our stories and the

basics of who we are, I got married when I was 21.

Like pretty freshly 21.

I feel like you turned 21 and immediately got married.

It was very quick.

It was a couple months later.

So I was extremely young.

If you are not part of a more conservative church space, that might seem weird to you.

Statistically it is really young, but within the church it's not.

At 21 you're probably like an old maid.

Probably.

Yeah.

I was not the first one of my friends to get married.

I was among the first, but I wasn't the first one for sure.

And it was just kind of what you did.

You were in college still.

Oh yeah.

It was between my junior and senior years that we got married.

And I remember it being even within our family who are very conservative.

I still was pretty young.

I was definitely on the younger side.

I remember getting a couple of comments like, are you sure about this?

Which definitely just came out of love and valid points.

But that was, like I said, not that uncommon.

So we got married and still were in college.

And let me tell you, you don't know yourself when you're 21.

Do you know yourself when you're 91?

No.

I got a thing better than at 21, one would hope.

You've at least lived with yourself for longer.

Who am I?

What are we?

Where are those?

So I want to talk through just a little bit of, I don't know, what it's been like to be

married for so long within a church context.

Because it's been like my whole adult life.

And maybe what you feel like some of the church expectations of you are because you're married.

Yeah, so I took a bunch of notes.

Are you all proud?

No.

They're on my computer and it is really precariously sitting here on this tiny, tiny desk.

I think you just almost knocked it over with your butt.

Well, it's not a big butt, so it can't do that much damage.

You just almost knocked it over again.

So I think one of the things when you first get married is you think you're part of the

club now.

Like there's this super secret group of married women in the church and you feel like, okay,

now I can talk to these women.

Now they'll know what to say to me.

They have such wise advice.

It's gonna be great, right?

I did the thing I was supposed to do.

I fulfilled my life's calling.

All of my 20 some odd years before this have been leading to this moment.

I don't know what I was doing before, but my life didn't begin.

You were just floating around looking for a husband.

Yeah, like a blob.

And I really think that's kind of how you feel.

I know we joke about it, but it is kind of how you feel.

And I was really young when I got married, so I guess I didn't feel that for super long.

But you feel like everything has been leading up to you walking down the aisle and your

life can begin, but it also kind of feels like everything led up to this moment.

So after this, it's all just milk and cookies.

Like everything's gonna be good, right?

And then you get into this circle of married women in the church and you're part of the

club, but it turns out the club sucks.

And I don't say this about marriage in and of itself.

Every marriage is totally different.

I will say the first year of marriage is incredibly difficult, particularly when you're that young.

But that's kind of not the point of this.

It's hard.

So just be aware of that.

When you're getting married young, give it some time.

My marriage is great and wonderful and I love my husband, but it's tough.

And you get into this club and all of these expectations start to be put on you.

You think, okay, well now the pastor is gonna be talking to me when he talks about marriage

and I'm gonna understand.

Like the Holy Spirit is gonna give me this beautiful understanding of what he's expecting

of me and what my husband's expecting of me.

And I don't know, you just think it's all perfect from here on out, right?

And one of the things that I found out very quickly from churches, from women in my life,

from books, from everything was the expectation of a married woman is to suffer.

It's so sad.

It makes me so sad.

What do you mean by that?

So I, well, let me tell you, I haven't written down.

Okay.

If your husband is mean, don't say anything to him.

Suffer.

If he doesn't help out around the house, and I'm not saying that the house is the woman's

domain or whatever, but in a lot of these contexts, that's the consideration.

So if he doesn't help around the house by doing the dishes, by taking out the trash,

by whatever, don't nag him.

Suffer.

If he's abusive, don't tell anyone.

Suffer.

If your kids don't respect you, don't tell anyone, don't ask for help.

Suffer.

It's constantly keep it in, keep it in, obey, suffer, suffer, suffer, suffer.

Does that make sense?

Yeah.

Almost like the only thing that matters is this outside view of the two of you, making

sure everybody thinks it's a happy shining union.

Right?

You know?

Because you don't want anybody else to know the roots of what's going on.

We talked, I think in the last episode, about how women were not, back in Bible times, women

weren't considered expert testimony or something like that.

If a woman went to court in Bible times, her testimony would not be even part of the consideration.

And that's kind of what it is for women in the church, too.

Particularly married women in the church.

If I come to the authorities with something that's happened to me, and this happened to

me, if I come to them with something, they ask, well, how does your husband feel about

it?

What are his thoughts on the matter?

How does he want to handle things?

Because he's your keeper.

Right.

And I've talked about this before, but it still feels the same.

Your testimony won't be taken seriously.

Your words, your thoughts, your experiences matter a little bit less than his.

Does that make sense?

Yeah.

Okay.

So, that's kind of the expectation.

And you don't know that until after you get in the club.

I think when you're single, and I might be totally off, but I think when you're single,

if you aren't around a lot of older married Christian women, it's kind of like, well yeah,

from afar, that looks pretty good, right?

It doesn't look suffering.

And when you bring up, yeah, things are really tough when you do open up to someone, it's

like, well, God didn't mean for you to be happy.

I've heard that so many times in church from sermons.

Being a Christian means to suffer.

And that is so disheartening.

I feel maybe I'm speaking out of turn, but I feel like just because you're a Christian

does not automatically mean suffer.

I think being a human, in general, you are going to go through pain, grief, loss, all

kinds of the spectrum of, you know, humanness.

But not just specifically because you're a Christian.

Right.

Well, I think we look at the where that seems to come from for me is you look at a lot of

the disciples were martyred after Jesus died.

And so people will take that and they're like, well, Jesus doesn't want you to be happy.

Look, these guys all died.

Right.

But yes, they suffered and were martyred for their faith.

But there were a lot of other Christians that, you know, weren't.

There were a lot of non-Christian people that also suffered and died.

I don't think it's an inherent thing in Christianity.

Suffer and be miserable, but also join our church.

I think God wants us to be joyful.

Well, that's the thing is you'll hear the difference.

And that's one of the things in my notes as well is that God isn't interested in your

happiness.

You have to find internal joy that surpasses all understanding.

And then once you have that internal joy that only comes from the Holy Spirit, you'll be

at peace.

It won't matter what happens around you.

It doesn't matter if they're suffering and death and whatever.

You're joyful.

So you're fine because the Holy Spirit has given that to you.

And I think there's some validity in that.

Yeah, I think the Holy Spirit can give you a peacefulness and a sense of belonging, of

more joyfulness.

But that doesn't, first of all, it doesn't stop you from experiencing suffering.

And second of all, happiness is still good.

It's still okay to want to be happy.

It's still okay to want to be happy in your marriage, to want to be happy with your kids,

to want to go out and enjoy your life.

It's okay.

If you want to fight for happiness, not just the internal joy that surpasses all understanding,

which is good, but if you also want to be happy and have happy circumstances, that's

okay.

And I feel like when you say that, it feels almost blasphemous if you're used to a Christian

church, which is very sad.

But those are the things that I have heard.

Now my biggest question as I was writing this was, do we say this to the husbands?

I don't know, I don't have one.

I mean, I don't think I've ever heard this said to men.

Now again, I'm not a man, correct me if I'm wrong.

But I don't think husbands have heard in their, I don't know, small groups that are only men,

or their journeys that are only for masculine.

I don't think that they are hearing, well, marriage is about suffering sometimes.

I don't think they're hearing you might not be happy.

Because in my experiences in church, the men, the husbands are told, your wives are to submit

to you.

Your happiness should be her greatest pursuit.

Your dreams should be upheld more than hers.

That's my experience of what's been told to husbands.

You are the end all be all.

You are the beginning to her end.

How great is that for you?

Mary Katz I mean, it sounds like a happy situation to

me.

Doesn't sound too suffering.

Other than you have to die for her.

That's another story.

Mary Katz That's a whole other thing.

But that's really the one expectation of husbands, and I'll read some of the bad marriage advice

in just a minute.

But I think that is the one expectation of husbands that gets held up is you need to

be willing to die for your wife, because that's considered a masculine pursuit.

Oh, you have to be strong enough to die for her.

I think my when I mimic men, my voice gets, I don't think it gets deeper.

I think it just gets weirder.

Just a little bit more respite.

But what a stupid thing.

You have to be willing to die for her.

Okay, sure.

But how often is that being asked of you?

How often are you being asked to live for her?

On a day to day basis, is a bus coming at her and you've got to shove her out of the

way?

No, if a bus is coming at me in the middle of the street, let it come.

But on the flip side, her submitting to you and letting you have your way and whatever

you feel like and making your dinner every day and bringing your slippers when you get

home from work, that happens every day.

That's her being in service to you every moment of every day, where you're apparently only

being asked, in theory, one time, you can only die the one time, unless you're in Bree's

book, which is called The Seven and a Half Deaths of Something.

Oh, yeah, I haven't started that yet.

Seven and a half deaths of Evelyn Hardcastle.

We can't recommend it though, she hasn't read it.

It could be terrible.

Okay, and so once you get married, and I'm going to read bad marriage advice in a little

bit because it's funny, even though it's really depressing.

But I wanted to go through a couple more things first.

So once you get married in the church, you almost think like, okay, I did my thing.

I did the thing I was supposed to do.

I fulfilled God's calling for me, huzzah.

But there's always more for women.

I think for men, you get through it, you get through marriage, and it's like, okay, you're

just cruise.

I guess be a good husband, but also there's not that much of an expectation on you after

that point.

I do think men are still expected to get married in the church, but after that, you're pretty

much good.

For women, it's, when are you going to have a baby?

And it is the moment that you say, I do.

Okay, now you're not supposed to have babies before marriage, according to the church,

but you are supposed to get on it the moment that you get married.

Whoa.

I'm not even kidding.

And the inappropriate questions.

Yeah.

Are you trying for a baby?

What methods are you using?

Let me give you some advice on the best ways to have a baby.

I did this and I had a boy.

The inappropriateness.

I don't want to tell you that we are or are not trying for a baby.

That's uncomfortable.

You don't need that information.

I don't want you sitting at home thinking about that.

No, thank you.

No, stop asking that people.

When someone is pregnant, when, okay, wait till they're nine months pregnant before you

say a word.

If they haven't said anything.

That baby had better be cruising out of them before you comment.

But just don't say anything.

Just don't comment because there are a million reasons why someone might not be having a

baby, whether it's by choice because they simply don't want, because they're 21 and

still in college perhaps, or whether it's because they can't have babies, whatever the

reason.

But you are expected to have kids.

And then you have your first baby and you think, oh, good.

I did the things.

I did all the things.

I did the things again.

Yeah.

Checked all the boxes.

Good to go.

When are you going to have your next baby?

And then when are you going to have your next baby?

And then are you going to homeschool them?

Because you know that public schools, they are indoctrinating our children with who knows

what.

God has been taken out of our schools.

And that's, I could do five episodes on that.

But there's all of these expectations is my point.

Do the next thing.

You're not holy enough until you have five kids and you buy a giant 15 passenger van

and put all the little person stickers on the back.

With Mickey heads.

Preferably with Mickey heads.

Just to show how many people you have.

And once you have 12 of them, you can't afford to go to Disney anyway.

So you put the Mickey heads to make yourself feel better.

And you just have to constantly keep going and striving.

And there's never an end to the expectations.

You've never fulfilled them all.

Because if you don't have the five kids, it's, oh you would have really enjoyed having more.

Or if you have all girls, well don't you want to try for a boy?

Or the flip is true.

And if you put them in public school, my daughter is in public school and there's always that

like, oh you have her in public school?

Was there not a good Christian school nearby?

Have you thought about homeschooling?

It's just nothing you do feels like it's ever good enough.

And it's so much more painful when that comes in the church.

Because I know that these expectations get put on non-Christian women too.

Oh absolutely, I think it's just part of the female experience.

But when it comes from your church, it feels like this is not society's expectation of

me, which at the very least I can say, well who cares about society?

This is now God's expectation of me?

Pop out all the babies, homeschool them, make homemade dinners every night, and also probably

ideally be a social media influencer and have blonde hair.

That's kind of the vibe, right?

But it never ends.

So let's see.

The next thing.

Having a job is a negative.

And these are all, I'm just going through a list of expectations that have been put

on me and that I know are being put on other women.

When you are married in the church, when Brie talked in our Singleness episode about the

expectation of getting a job just until you get married.

As a placeholder.

Exactly.

It's the continuation of that.

Once you get married, your ideal situation is to quit your job and be a stay at home

parent.

Now there's nothing wrong with that.

If that is your choice as the woman or as the stay at home parent, if that's your choice,

great, do your thing.

Yeah, because there's tons of reasons why people choose to do that.

Absolutely.

I've been a stay at home parent.

The first five years of my daughter's life I was a stay at home parent because we couldn't,

not really, honestly for me it was not because I necessarily wanted that in life, but because

we couldn't afford childcare.

Childcare is so crazy expensive.

That's insane.

And what I was making while I was pregnant literally wouldn't have paid for childcare.

So it just didn't make sense.

So I've been a stay at home parent.

I can sympathize with it.

I feel all of those expectations on my shoulders.

But the thought that as a woman your ideal situation is to be a wife and mother, and

we've talked about this in countless episodes, is really painful.

I think it's super painful because if you want anything outside of that, if you want

to have a job, it's like, oh, she has to have a job.

That's really sad for her.

Because it's almost like your personal well-being disappears.

It doesn't matter.

You're not a person anymore.

You're a wife and mother.

Your needs are not important.

Your needs will not be met.

Don't expect that they will be met.

And that's part of that club that we talked about of married women that is so negative.

First of all, I think the expectation is to kind of hate on your husband when you're in

that married club.

My mom used to talk about this.

About how when she would go to, there was this group called Mops.

I don't know if it's still a thing or not.

It's a horrible name.

Isn't it?

Oh my gosh.

I don't know what it stood for, moms or parents.

I would have to look it up.

I have no idea what it stood for.

But it was a group, and this was a many different churches did the Mops groups.

So you guys might remember this as well.

But it was a group of moms that would bring their kids together usually at the church.

And the kids would play and the moms would, I don't know, do crafts and drink tea.

I don't know what they did.

But they would sit and chat while their kids played.

And I remember my mom saying that there was so much negativity in those groups about the

husbands and the kids.

And that her goal was always to not participate in that because she liked her husband and

she liked her kids.

But I think where that comes from is your needs not being met.

When your partner is meeting none of your personal needs, it's all about what you can

do for them.

And there's no reciprocation of what they can do for you.

I mean, that sounds like a bad time.

How often are women just getting erased?

I mean, for heaven's sakes, your name is replaced.

You're no longer Alyssa, your mom.

Or you lose your last name.

And that's totally a personal choice, but it's one of those throwbacks to I own you

now.

What I think would be great for the world as a whole is when you start a new family,

if you want to, you just pick a whole new name.

Whatever it is that you want, you pick a whole new name and you start your family with that

whole new last name and then your kids do the same.

The Broccolis.

Brianna Broccoli.

I love it.

These are my kids, my little sprouts.

Yeah, that sounds right.

You should do that one.

I do, should I decide to have any children, they will all be named after cheese.

I think it's hilarious.

Like Colby, come on.

Jack, come on.

You need a real weird one in there though.

This is my youngest man, Chago.

I think too, if you don't enthusiastically go after all these things, husband, kids,

lack of job, homeschool, check off all of the boxes, as though you are thrilled about

it every moment, there's a lot of judgment in that too.

Even if you've checked off the boxes.

You have to do it with a smile on your face.

Now you don't need to expect to be happy, but you better look happy.

Because so often, like I said before, it's all about the outward appearance.

That's the only thing that matters.

It doesn't matter if you can actually afford that car, but you should be driving a nice

car because we want the people of the church to look in awe of you.

It doesn't matter if you're actually happy as long as you look happy.

Cut the little Joker smile into your face and you'll be good to go.

I think it's, I don't know, it's just so difficult because when you're single, I think one of

the biggest struggles I heard you mention in the last episode was not being talked to

in church.

Not feeling like the sermons were speaking to you.

And when you get married, I think you think they're going to be talking to me now.

It's going to be supportive of me now.

You don't really think of people outside of your bubble, which is a problem in itself.

But at least now they're going to be talking to me.

The reality is they're not talking to married women.

They're talking at married women.

Here's what you need to do.

Here's who you need to be.

Here's your checklist.

Don't think about anything else.

Don't do anything else.

Don't talk about doing anything else.

Don't have dreams, have his dreams.

Don't have a plan for your future because you've got to just sort of follow around wherever

his plan for his little future is.

And if that's move 45 times, then you better be happy about that.

And if that's living on a homestead in Alaska, you better be thrilled.

I will never be living in a homestead in Alaska.

Not ever, not no way, no how.

And if for some weird reason you find me there, call 911.

I've been abducted.

I've lost my mind.

All right, I'll make a note.

One of the things I was thinking about, this made me think of that.

So Nathan and I have been watching Alone lately.

No one is alone.

Not that one.

So this show, if you haven't seen it, I think it's on Disney Plus.

They send out like 10 people, 10-ish people.

It's essentially a game show, but harder.

So much harder.

They put them all in places, usually in really cold places, and they just leave them there.

They are sent with their own camera equipment.

They're completely alone.

The only time they see other people is when the medical crew comes out to check them and

make sure they haven't died.

Or they tap out.

Yeah, and that's it.

They are alone.

They have to get their own food.

They have to build their own shelter in the Arctic most of the time.

They can only bring like 10 things with them.

It's fascinating, especially for someone who hates the outdoors passionately.

Fascinating.

But there was this woman on there.

So they get memory cards to put in their cameras, right?

She had one memory card that she didn't want to give to the production crew.

Now they made a note of this on the screen.

She didn't want to give it to the production crew because she basically kept it as like

a diary almost to her significant other.

However, the rules apparently stated that she had to give all of the memory cards to

them and then they aired it because of course they did.

And what broke my heart is she's sitting there.

Now her personality up until this point has been happy, bubbly, everything's great.

It's wonderful.

It's gonna be amazing.

And then she's sitting in her shelter recording this to her boyfriend and she's sobbing and

she's like, I can't show this to them because they're gonna exploit it as a weakness.

They're gonna look at this and they're gonna say I'm weak so I have to be happy.

I have to be ready to go every moment.

I have to be so big and strong, stronger than the men.

I have to be so intense because otherwise they're gonna show this and I'm gonna look

weak and they're gonna say women are weak.

And they did show it.

But the rest of the time, all of the other videos, she has that personality.

This happy, peppy personality.

And it broke my heart because she felt that she had to do that.

But I think with Christian women in particular, we don't even have that partner necessarily.

I shouldn't say we.

My husband is wonderful and I can break down with him at any time.

I do.

Many times.

Break it down now.

Thank you.

But for a lot of Christian women, you're supposed to be that strong.

Now not physically strong.

Don't be physically strong because that's intimidating to the men.

I was just gonna say don't intimidate them.

But emotionally, you have to be strong and on it all the time and never break down to

anyone ever ever because then your husband will say, ugh, you're just too emotional for

me.

It's just so much work.

Can't you be more like a man?

I just don't understand these emotions.

You have to be strong but you can't be too strong.

You have to cry when it's appropriate because it's feminine but not too much.

Because it makes them uncomfy.

There's all these expectations and it's just heartbreaking.

And I wish for women at least that they're partner.

And you know some Christian marriages, I'm not saying every Christian marriage is like

this, I'm just saying that that's almost the expectation.

Suffer.

Suffer alone.

Suffer in quiet.

You can suffer to God I guess if you want to but don't be too annoying because God really

doesn't want to hear that.

And also if you dwell on it, then that's gonna make you more unhappy.

So don't dwell on it, push it down, stomp it down.

Turn it off.

Switch.

I have been watching this ex-Mormon content creator.

I think it's driving everyone in the house crazy.

I watch her all the time.

I'm doing a deep dive into Mormonism.

Not because I want to join but because I'm fascinated.

And I do unfortunately see a lot of similarities in the way women are treated there and in

the very conservative Christian church.

Like the Duggars, they're not Mormons, they are-

IBLP.

Yeah.

It sounds like you have a pooping problem.

Okay, so let's go into some of the advice.

The advice?

Oh the advice that you get.

So one of the people that we talk about a lot is Sheila Ray Gregoire and she is just

a treasure.

Hi Sheila.

She has a podcast also with her daughter and it's actually linked.

We have it in our recommended podcast so if you are on really any of our outlets it should

be linked and you should be able to see it recommended.

And they talk about essentially freeing women from this concept of submission from the expectation

that their marriages are going to suck.

So one of the things that she does, she is so incredibly smart.

Like when you read her stuff, holy crap, I'm in awe.

I'm overwhelmed.

Do you hear that Sheila?

She loves you.

But one of the things that she does is these little snippets and she says, fixed it for

you.

So she pulls quotes from a lot of Christian marriage books but also from many different

places and she writes out the quote and then she crosses it all out and she says, fixed

it for you and so she fixes it.

So I'm going to read a couple of those and then I'm going to read some things from other

places as well.

So this one, Bre are you prepared to be sad about life?

Always am.

Audienz are you prepared to be sad about life?

Life is about suffering, let's go.

So this is from, I'm going to mispronounce his last name but it's Owens Drahan, I think,

who is the former president of the Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood and also

a professor of theology at Grace Bible Theological Seminary.

So if you want to be sad about how our young people are being taught, be prepared.

Fantastic.

So it says, this is from Twitter, he posted this on Twitter in 2022.

God has staked everything on men.

Strong men are the foundation of a strong marriage.

Strong men are the foundation of a strong home.

Strong men are the foundation of a strong church.

Strong men are the foundation of a strong society.

God has staked everything on men.

So interesting, why did he even create women?

I think in this view of things, God created women to make babies.

But I mean that's really it.

Our highest calling.

So Sheila fixes it.

I'm not going to read all of her fixes but that one's so bad, we have to fix it.

So Sheila says, for no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is

Christ Jesus.

The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone.

Thank you Sheila.

Beautiful, loved it.

Made me happy inside.

I think men forget that God doesn't need them.

God doesn't need any of us to make him look any better, to build him up any, like he doesn't

need any of us.

You're lucky to be alive.

You were birthed from a woman.

That's the reality.

Yeah.

Quit making yourself so great, you're not so great.

I think patriarchy in the church is the easiest way to make yourself feel like God without

saying it because that would be blasphemy.

But you are the Lord of your home.

We actually got a comment on TikTok.

I literally forgot what it was called briefly on TikTok.

I could sing the song for you.

Please don't.

And she said something about male headship and she in parentheses called it lordship.

And that was just like, that hit me hard.

It's like, wow, that's what it is.

It's becoming the Lord of your space.

You are the most important person and everyone in your space needs to worship you.

Which is such the opposite of what is being taught to women.

Women are like, you need to humble yourself.

You know, very demure, very mindful.

You know, you don't want to make anybody else uncomfortable.

You don't want to, yeah, you don't want to make waves.

That is never being told to a man.

So this one comes from Stormy O Martian who wrote Kylie's Kid.

No who wrote the power of a praying wife.

And if you want to be sad again, if you're prepared for that, this book has sold over

eight million copies.

Oh no.

So the original quote is when you are married, there will always be two areas of that will

ultimately be your responsibility, home and children.

On top of all this, you will also be expected to be sexually appealing, a good cook, a great

mother and physically, emotionally and spiritually fit.

Now I want to point out that that sounds like sarcasm and it's sarcasm when it comes out

of my mouth, but it's not in the book.

This is really something that she says.

This is really actually marriage advice that women are getting in the church.

This is the power of a praying wife.

That's what the book is called.

So apparently the only power you have as a wife is to take care of your home, to take

care of your kids, but not to teach your sons once they reach a certain age because you're

a woman and you can't teach men.

And also to be a good cook, sexually appealing, a great mother, physically, emotionally and

spiritually fit, you better just be all the things.

Zero expectations on him.

All you.

My gosh.

This is some of the advice that women are getting.

I'm going to read one more from Sheila and you can find all of these on her Facebook

page, but you can also find them.

She made like a little book, like a digital download book.

That's what I'm reading from right now and you can find that on her website and it's

got all of them and then it goes into why she corrected them the way that she did and

the verses that she used to correct them the way that she did.

So she's not just correcting them just based on whatever ideas pop into her head.

She's using it biblical.

Right.

Exactly.

Unlike what these people are doing.

Tell me where in the Bible it says I have to be sexually appealing all the time and

a good cook.

Literally, absolutely nowhere.

The interesting thing too is biblical women, if you think of Abraham's wife, Sarah, they

had servants.

She wasn't cooking.

So the last one that I'm going to read from Sheila is from William P Farley, who was a

retired pastor and also contributed to the Gospel Coalition website and the Desiring

God website.

So he's got some influence there and it says, now this is advice in theory to husbands,

right?

Abraham humbly loves a menopausal or premenstrual wife.

His behavior says Christ loves the church even though she is sinful.

What?

His behavior tells his children Christ loves his bride even when she is unattractive.

What?

It says that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ, even our feelings.

What?

This is from the book called Gospel Powered Parenting.

Oh my gosh.

You didn't think it was going to get worse, did you?

Did you?

What if I looked at him and I was just like, God hates you because you're ugly.

But I love you.

You're balding and me loving you still is an example of how Christ loved the church.

Okay.

You have to take that blue pill and that's a sin.

I'm going to read Sheetless Fixing of this one because it hurts me in my soul.

Oh my gosh, that's insane.

I know.

So she says, this is her crossing out certain things and putting in different words, when

a husband humbly loves a menopausal or premenstrual wife.

Also premenstrual, are we talking about before she starts her period?

So are we marrying children?

What are we talking about here?

I do not know.

His behavior is merely what any decent human being would do.

His behavior tells his children, stop moaning about women's natural cycles.

It says that when your wife is uncomfortable, her needs matter.

Thank you, Sheila.

I appreciate you.

Do men think that periods are something that God didn't create?

That women were just like, how can I inconvenience myself even more?

I love to bleed.

I love to bleed once a month and then before that week of me constantly bleeding, I love

to just also be in pain.

It's a great time.

It's just something I like to punish myself with.

So some of the other ones, and this was from my own research and looking up some things

and you can research.

Don't do this.

Women out there, don't research this.

I'm a women folk.

I want you to be informed and I want you to double check the things that we say because

that's important.

However, this will make you sad.

I would say before you dive into the internet and look at a book from some old pastor or

some, you know, even a Christian woman.

Oh, we're about to go there.

Look to your Bible first.

Make sure that you're feeling strong and that you're not ready to be influenced by these

people.

There is a blog slash website and it's called the transformed wife and my mom has followed

them for a while out of irony.

I think she's like, I just like to watch, watch the train wreck.

Mom is a little dark.

She is a little bit.

At least we haven't had to say sorry mom so far this episode.

I may have, I maybe should have maybe, but we didn't.

Sorry mom.

So it's, it's a train wreck.

I don't know how else to describe it.

It's all about being like a submissive wife to the point of absolute abuse.

It's horrifying and I hate it, but I read a blog on her website because I was feeling

masochistic apparently.

It said one of the things that she said, and I'm not going to quote a lot of what she says

because it's just hurtful, but one of the things that she says is don't nag, mention

it once then pray.

So the blog that this comes from is about how naggy women are because that's just what

gets put on women all the time, right?

Put on wives.

And she says, don't nag your husband about the things that he's supposed to be doing,

I guess.

He's not supposed to be an equal partner.

So it is fine.

So like, let's say he doesn't take out the trash because that's the one and only household

job that it's acceptable for a man to do.

Let's say he doesn't do that.

Don't nag him about it.

Mention it one time and if he chooses not to, you take out the trash.

He's got too much else on his mind.

He doesn't need you being annoying in his ear.

Just take on his job too.

In addition to the fact that you haven't sat down all day, take on his job also.

That to me just says, don't expect anything of your husband.

Don't just figure it out all on your own.

Yep.

Well, that's pretty much her blog.

That's pretty much the whole thing.

So I read some of the comments because I thought, surely, surely the feminists have descended,

right?

So here are some of the comments that I want to cry over.

The first one is, there is such a freedom in trusting God and simply submitting to your

husband.

Have we forgotten what freedom means?

We have fully, fully let that aside.

I would like for her to have a definition for me.

Because submission and freedom, I feel like do not go hand in hand.

Certainly not submission to a person.

No.

Because here's the deal.

As Christians, we talk about the freedom of obeying God, right?

And that there is a certain sense of peace and comfort in allowing God to guide your

steps.

But remember that God is flawless.

God is God?

Yeah, God is the creator of the universe.

God is perfect.

And your husband is not.

I'm sorry, guys.

He's not.

He's just not.

I don't know if any of the men out there have been told this lately.

You're not perfect.

And in submitting to an imperfect being, so many women are like, if you would just let

go, just let go and just submit.

It's like, what is it that, from Beauty and the Beast, what is it that Stockholm Syndrome?

It's like Stockholm Syndrome.

If you just let go and just follow along, let go of all your will and hopes and desires,

dreams, and just follow along with this imperfect person who's leading you left and right and

doesn't know where the crap he's going.

I guess in some ways, you could think you have two choices as a stereotypical Christian

woman.

You can either fight it and then not fulfill what you think your greatest calling is as

a woman.

Or you could just, I guess, just submit and live your life in misery.

And maybe that is easier for some people, but I just can't stand behind it.

I think that's why you see women leaving the churches in droves, because what a horrible

choice to have to make.

You either get to fail God or you get to lose yourself.

Those are your two choices.

In saying all of this, I don't know, if you go back and listen to other episodes, we make

it pretty clear though, this is not what God actually expects of women.

Biblically, this is not true.

None of this is the truth of what God wants for you.

We're at 53 minutes, so I don't have time to go into all of the verses, but please do

go back and listen to especially our submission series where we go through what God's actual

expectations of women are and why we can really throw aside this expectation of submission

to our husbands and live in that freedom from God, that God gave us, because God values

you as an individual, not just as a wife.

I'm just going to go into one more because we are nearing the end of what I feel like

editing.

There's a book from the 70s, and there are a lot of modern books on this too.

This is not an old topic, but this is just one that I found that I just thought was hilarious.

I found it from a comment on the transformed wife.

The book is called Me, Obey Him, and I do it with the inflections because I think it's

funny.

It's about how independent women should stop, basically.

Knock it off.

Okay.

I've had enough of you.

A review of this book... Now, I have not read this book, but I did some research on

the book itself.

Again, it's really depressing, but a review of this book on Amazon says, the peace, joy,

and rest of being a woman, just as God designed, was such a blessing to me.

A very independent thinking woman in 1976.

I've bought this book for every young woman I love upon learning they were planning to

marry.

It gets harder and harder to find, but I've bought three in the last five years, and I

plan to continue gifting this book to prospective brides that I love.

I'm going to go with brides that you actually hate, but she didn't say that.

Misery loves company.

I think once you decide that this is the right lifestyle for you, submission, setting aside

your own hopes and dreams, this very dim, you're quiet, biblical woman, mindful... Once

you decide that's for you, you need other women to make the same decision.

To validate your choice.

Even like Brie and I, and hopefully those of you listening as well, you guys can be

in this club if you'd prefer.

It's a better club.

We'll bring snacks.

We love Starbucks.

We'll bring Starbucks.

We are a threat to that, because we can look at the Bible as strong, smart, independent

women and say, none of this is true.

This is crap.

And I have the power of the Holy Spirit behind me.

Yeah.

Like all of the Bible supports what we're saying.

I was watching a TikTok today.

I watched the TikTok this time.

Oh my God.

I didn't mention TikTok one time, other than that Demure comment.

But I was watching it and the hashtags were like ex-Christian, ex-evangelicalist, ex-vangelical.

That's what they used.

And she was talking about how sexist the Bible is and how she just doesn't understand how

any women can be in the Christian church, et cetera, et cetera.

And like, look, I hear you and I want to validate that that is what's been taught to us, but

that is not what the Bible says.

That is not what the Bible is asking of you.

That's what people have interpreted it to say.

That's what translators have forced it to say.

And I would hope that podcasts like this, podcasts like Sheila's podcast, books like

Beth, like Beth Elson Barr's books, Sarah Bessie's book, Rachel Held-Evans books.

If you guys want a whole episode on the books and podcasts that we love, I would love to

do that.

Let us know over on our TikTok.

But this is not what God expects of you.

It's what the church expects of you.

And there's freedom in recognizing that.

And in just saying we're done.

Not necessarily done with the whole church.

If that's the path that you're on, that's totally fine.

But for me, it hasn't been walk away from the whole church because that's not what I

feel like God is asking me to do.

It's been walk away from the expectations and walk away loudly.

I'm going to scream the whole way I'm walking away.

Because if I sit there and I be quiet about these expectations being absolute crap, okay,

they are just absolute crap.

If I'm quiet about it, then that means that it's a little bit my fault that another woman

decides to go through it.

I think because the voices of everybody else are so loud, we have to be twice or three

times as loud.

Because there's not as many people saying that this isn't true.

And you can be free and God wants you to be free.

We got to be loud.

God values you as a woman.

He doesn't value you just as a wife and mother.

Just when you become a wife and mother.

Only when you become a submissive wife and mother.

Only when you follow your husband's direction.

That's not it.

Real quick, I wanted to go into...

We're going to do a whole episode on this at some point.

I just haven't gotten my brain around it yet.

But the Proverbs 31 woman.

I just wanted to talk about that for a second because I think that is a big part of where

a lot of this comes from.

Where this expectation of suffering and of just constant work and a lack of respect comes

from.

So the Proverbs 31 woman, it's a really long section.

It's not just one verse.

You can look it up.

You can look it up anywhere.

But I would recommend looking it up in the NLT translation and not the ESV.

Just because the New Living Translation.

The NIV is also great.

Either of them is good.

Also the message is good.

So this is essentially...

It starts off as who can find a virtuous woman for her price is far above rubies.

And I believe this is the ESV that I'm looking at right now because I'm looking at Christianity.com.

And it goes on a laundry list of what a good woman looks like.

And this verse has been just absolutely a tool for men to destroy women.

It's not what it's meant to be.

That's not what it's supposed to be at all.

But it absolutely has been used as that for generations.

It talks about how she only does good.

She works with her hands.

She brings food.

She gets up early in the morning to feed her household.

And we kind of stop there as conservative Christians because then it goes on to talk

about how she buys a field.

And she is an entrepreneur.

And she is bringing money into the household.

And she is strong.

And we forget that part.

We don't remember that part because that doesn't fit with a patriarchal view of society.

This verse is not an expectation of who you are supposed to be every moment of every day.

In one of the things that I was reading, it said, this is a mom's advice to her son.

Go out and find this type of woman.

This is advice for all.

Go out and find a partner if you choose to find a partner or if you don't be the kind

of person that is strong and able and serves the people that you love.

Not just women.

Not just wives.

Husbands.

People who are single in church.

Serve the people that you love.

If you know that they need something, fill that gap for them.

If someone is hungry, feed them.

If you have the opportunity to go out and get a job and contribute to your family and

that's what you're gonna do, do it.

Man or woman.

Be that person.

It doesn't have to be a laundry list of expectations for women.

Nope.

Oh, I just feel like I need a nap after this one.

It's been a heavy one, guys.

On the plus side, again, we're in Disney.

I'm so sorry that you're not.

Someday my life goals- so my daughter's been watching Full House lately and they have one

episode- it's the most absurd episode.

It's like the Disney crossover.

Oh my gosh, I know exactly what you're talking about.

And two of the main characters- I mean, you've never seen it.

This show's a weird sort of treasure.

But Jesse and Joey, two of the main characters, they have a radio show, I think, and they

somehow are allowed to record their radio show in one of the aquariums.

Disney has these massive aquariums, right?

And they have like a bubble down in one of them and they scuba dive down to the bubble

and they record their radio show in the bubble.

And that is my life goal, okay, to record this podcast in Disney in a bubble.

You're gonna have to do that solo.

I'm not doing that with you.

What the heck?

I don't know why.

You hate confined places.

I do.

I really do.

But it's just- I saw it and I was like, Disney.

You just want to go to Disney.

I always want to go to Disney.

Maybe that's my life goal.

Maybe my life goal is to someday- what if we record in the castle?

What if they let us do that?

Okay, I'm sure they will.

They love Christian feminism.

Disney executives, if you are listening.

Alyssa's life goal.

When you wish upon a star, you could make my dreams come true.

Oh, Mr. Disney.

Mr. Disney's dead.

Listen to me beyond the grave.

Okay, guys, it's getting real hot in this room.

You'd think it would cool down by now.

It has not.

It's because there's no air circulation.

Next week we're talking about weaponized incompetence.

There we go.

And I have a whole song dedicated to it.

Sing it for the people.

No.

For the first time, no.

Alright, so we'll see you guys next week.

Unfortunately, by next week we'll be back from Disney, so that's a bummer.

And we might be a little bit more depressed, so if you noticed just a change in our attitude,

we got the Disney saddies.

Alright, we'll see you guys then.

Love you, bye.

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