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This podcast offers business solutions to help listeners develop and implement action plans for lean process improvement and implement continuous improvement projects, cost reductions, product quality enhancements, and process effectiveness improvement. Listeners come from many industries in both manufacturing and office applications.
Colleen Soppelsa 0:04
Be realistic, build a new future, acknowledge the pain and communicate honestly.
Andy Olrich 0:12
Is definitely lack of communication. If I have a lack of communication and awareness and the team's not working well together, I'm fatigued, I'm stressed, I feel like I'm under pressure. The key
Colleen Soppelsa 0:22
here is people need to see their role and responsibilities differently within those group. Interactions from slack to teams to SharePoint that try to pull these groups together for better communication, but they're falling short because, you know, their roles and their responsibilities are not changing.
Andy Olrich 0:57
G'day and welcome to this episode of the lean solutions podcast. I'm your host today, Andy Ulrich, and we've got a fantastic guest and topic here to talk to you about today. I hope you're all going well out there. Now, I just want to drop this one in as we're moving through the evolution of the lean solutions. Podcast today is going to be very visual. So if you're not aware, we are available on YouTube, and we have been for a while. So if you want to actually look and listen to their guests. Please jump onto our YouTube channel and subscribe. So today, we're actually going to be going through a presentation. So the topic that we're looking at today is group intelligence in practical problem solving. And we've got a fantastic guest who's going to come along here and present to you all, and we'll have a bit of a conversation around that so without further ado. So today's guest is Colleen sapelsa, and I'm going to bring Colleen to the stage. First of all, here's a bit about Colleen. So she grew up in Cincinnati, Ohio, and completed her undergraduate studies at Smith College and her MBA at Thunderbird, Arizona, after working several years in Japan, in educational services and Italy, consumer luxury goods, where she met her husband, she began her lean, continuous improvement journey in purchasing at Toyota engineering and manufacturing in Kentucky, supporting electronics assemblies and steel structures. She then transitioned into the aerospace and defense industry in 2011 working with GE aerospace, all three Harris technologies in performance improvement. Throughout her years as a facilitator of teams for project management, Kaizen or strategy deployment, she became increasingly dedicated to organizational behavior, the power of trust, teamwork and creativity in advanced engineering environments. The favorite quote is by Patrick Lencioni, not finance, not strategy, not technology. It is teamwork that remains the ultimate competitive advantage, because both is so powerful and so rare. I love that. So today's topic, as I said, will be group intelligence in practical problem solving. Strap in, as I said, if you're listening to this, jump over to YouTube so you can watch the presentation in its full magic. Colleen, I'm going to bring you to the stage. Yeah, welcome to the show.
Colleen Soppelsa 3:10
Well, thank you so much, Andy, and thank you lean solutions for hosting me today. I am honored and very excited about this topic. Yeah, so I'm what I'm going to do is just kind of introduce this topic, and as I mentioned earlier, feel free to interrupt at any time. I keep these sessions very casual, and I will keep in mind that we have a large audience that's primarily audio, so I'll try to be very descriptive as well.
Andy Olrich 3:42
We'll get there as I, as I joked about before we came on, everyone, I sometimes in a bit too interrupty. So it should be, we should be fine. I'll and again, what an important topic. And wow, what an experience you've got. Colleen, so let's jump in. I'm going to add your presentations to the stage and take it away.
Colleen Soppelsa 4:02
Yeah. Well, one of my favorite topics, and this is really based on a book by one of my favorite authors, Siobhan. Mikhail. Siobhan is She's a culture transformation expert, an author and executive leader known for her work in organizational change. And Siobhan led a major cultural transformation at Australia and New Zealand banking group known as ANZ, and was used by John Cotter as a Harvard Business Case Study. She's the HR executive of people, culture and change, at the Luke's group, where she played a key role in that transforming that culture. And she went on sabbatical about four months ago or so, but she is the author of The Insider's Guide to culture change, as well as. The hive mind at work, both of which focus on rethinking roles within organizations to shift mindsets and improve collaboration. And she continues to influence businesses by helping them align culture with strategy to enhance long term success. And I consider her one of my dearest mentors at this time.
Andy Olrich 5:26
Fantastic. Love the local link to ANZ. I'm familiar with them down here, so
Colleen Soppelsa 5:30
I bet Excellent. So Andy, I wanted to walk you through just an episode back in the beginning of my onboarding at Toyota. So I started my continuous improvement journey there in 2000 right around 2003 and I was there until 2011 and switched into switched industry in the aerospace and defense and that Toyota, I was purchasing professional, as you mentioned. But as I transitioned into aerospace and defense, I wanted a more facilitation type role, so coaching cross functional groups, both on the production as well as the non production side. But this experience of mine, my onboarding at Toyota, it really was a defining moment, and it it, it flavored how I saw all my experiences after leaving Toyota. But one of the you know, the new hires in my group, raised their hand during the culture portion of our onboarding. So we generally have one week of training on the production shop floor, and then the second week was all about culture. And the question was, why is lean not more successful in the US. And without hesitation, our sensei went over to the whiteboard and wrote the Japanese character for cancer and explaining that it stood for its pronounced gun. And the examples that were used, they all were around this internal competition. And he explained, it's like cancer cells that are eating the healthy cells to the detriment of the host, and that host would obviously, obviously be your organization. So that was a very powerful analogy for me. Maybe it's because I'm from a family, and my father was actually treated cancer. So it was this. It was something that just stuck in my stuck in my mind, especially after I left automotive for aerospace and defense. And what I wanted to point out, I'm going to be explaining, walking you through a couple of visuals that may, in the beginning not seem to be connected, but I promise, I'll bring them all together in the end. But these are kind of, I would say, artifacts or highlights that were that were noted during my journey, and also reflective of, you know, the current environment. So I find that in today's climate, it's kind of like this perfect storm. We have all of these different elements. Often they're referred to as, you know, VUCA environment, but remote work, you know, coming out of covid, you have this, all of this artificial intelligence that's coming into our work environments, that pandemic effect of isolation, working more remotely, and just being out outside of our normal routines, there's obviously polarization. Don't have to say too much about that. But then also the high attrition, moving between roles or between companies at a accelerated rate, and then economic uncertainty. So all of these are kind of creating this perfect storm, which you know, it influences how we behave internally within our organizations. Now I mentioned earlier that I transitioned into a facilitation role. So the first role of that type was in a Lean Six Sigma role at GE aerospace, and what I was had the privilege of being exposed to. I was being in the middle of the organization. So I'm working with cross functional groups, anywhere from, you know, 10 to 2025, people, and I have the ability to see all of those dynamics at play. So I'm having a horizontal view as well as a vertical view, up and down. So I can see all of these dynamics. For example, how business priorities are or are not, being flowed down into tactic, tactical execution, and how at times, the best, well intended efforts to streamline the direction that strategy planning and deployment. Sometimes it can get confusing in the middle, due to the fact that so many organizations are functionally defined. And what I found is that many, many leaders of these functional departments, they're, you know, they're, they're trying to achieve functional goals, but they're really, they're trying to optimize their function to the detriment of the enterprise. They're not working together as a system. Does that make sense?
Andy Olrich 11:26
Yeah, so true. And being someone in a similar position in organization, you're seeing the strategic context, but then looking at the execution on the ground, 100% it's like it kind of, I kind of felt like it was a bit like Chinese whispers if you didn't have some good visual management, or that that strategy wasn't clear with that line of sight, even where I was choosing to play, I had a lot of license, but it was like, Oh yeah, go out and seek out the projects, and then I'm trying to work with them and go, where does this fit into the strategy? And they're like, Oh no, that's just what our team does, and that's important to us. And I'm going so you've definitely starting very strong Colleen and someone who's sat in that strategic CR environment, especially trying to engage and deploy with something like Lean Six Sigma, yeah. Why should they care? Why should they even talk to me? Or why should they keep going and so carry on. That's absolutely
Colleen Soppelsa 12:25
so I'm going to take this into the context of aerospace. And like I said, I'm going to show you some images in the beginning, and they may not immediately seem like they connect, but I will make sure that all comes together towards the end, but what I'm looking here on the screen, it's just this case study, and we don't have to venture far to know that right now, Aerospace is have has had some tough years these past few years in terms of their Process quality. So this case study is focused on Boeing, and it's highlighting some of the reflections from the new CEO, Kelly Ortberg, stepping into that new role, and highlighting about eight of you know his his takeaways from having diagnosed the culture. And some of these are culture change, focus on the core, reset priorities, restore trust. That's a big one. Be realistic, build a new future, acknowledge the pain and communicate honestly. So you're seeing a lot of real vulnerability from you know, the top person in this organization. And I found that to be very insightful. These are known as the the Dirty Dozen, but if you look at them, these could be in any organism, any industry, any organization. They're very common pitfalls within behaviors and common failure modes, such as lack of communication, complacency, lack of knowledge, distractions, lack of teamwork, fatigue. But there's a total of 12 of these, and really you can find these from aerospace to healthcare, but they're very common reasons for groups not working well together. Have you seen some of these in your history? Andy, yeah, just a few. Which ones? Which ones get your attention the most?
Andy Olrich 14:38
Look for those. For those listening, there's an image of a plane, and there's 12 little bubbles around the plane, and in the middle it says, avoid the Dirty Dozen. So, oh, looking here, I'm looking at this here. How do you pick some out? Well, for me, definitely lack of communication. Huge. Huge one, the teamwork one, I definitely find that. And even just. The lack of awareness. And I also look at this image here, and I see how some of these, I guess, causes of some of these impacts. So if I have a lack of communication and awareness, and the team's not working well together, I'm fatigued, I'm stressed, I feel like I'm under pressure. Yeah, and then we Yeah. So I definitely probably Yeah. People just don't know what's going on, or see where they fit, or know that they're pulling in the right direction. I think they're the main ones that I've seen things fall apart. So yeah, I agree.
Colleen Soppelsa 15:35
So what you know they've been doing is putting a lot of those human factors within compliance, types of documentation, issuing a lot of posters, that type of thing. But it's not, in my opinion, it's not really having the best effect on helping to integrate organizational change or behavioral change, into technical problem solving. And I think that is going to be one of the real components of this presentation today. So just to show you what I've been working on since 2011 really experimentation coming out of Toyota and doing these mini experiments as a facilitator, trying always to integrate behavioral change into technical problem solving. So I began with what's referred to as the change acceleration process, and that is ge aerospaces. It's a proprietary collection of about 30 plus tools, but those are used to help groups come together, people come into the experience of change in a in a much more accepting way. So from that change acceleration process I evolved into something known as the great discovery, which actually comes out of the six sigma environment. And to explain what that is, in a nutshell, basically it's forming a mission and three values within whatever group you are working in, so that you are bonding at a very human level before moving on to your technical problem solving. But as I explained earlier this this recent book by Siobhan Mikhail on group intelligence, it was like someone coming by and hitting me on the top of the head with with a frying pan. This really brought to light how I was not doing this correctly, and it was one of the most humbling experiences of my life. I had a very visceral reaction, like a three month depression, almost, but it woke me up to the gaps in my role as a facilitator, and I'm going to go into that much more in much more detail
Andy Olrich 18:09
just before, sorry, just going back to that image there, I'd love say there's a timeline there and those three stages, but experiments all the way experimenting, experimenting, experimenting, and plan, do, check, ACT, PLAN, do. It's, yeah, it's this, this continuous piece Carter type approach, where you just, what did we learn? Righto, let's go again. Fantastic. So yeah, that's, I appreciate you sharing that with us, yes.
Colleen Soppelsa 18:37
And what I wanted to also note is, this looks really pretty on a slide, but I have to say, this was one big humble eating pie competition. I mean, it was messy,
Andy Olrich 18:49
yeah, the visceral reaction, as you said, like, I found some of the it's kind of like everything falls out, and when someone really shines it on you, but yeah, if you can, yeah, it's kind of that, that shake that you need, and then it's like, oh, wow, now I see it, and that, that human piece right up the front, that's what I find great about those again, in Lean Six Sigma, is the team is aligned. You've got a sponsor. They're really they understand the why, and then that just the richness from there. Instead of being voluntold to do this, and absolutely, why am I working on this? I don't see the point. Yeah, that human, the heart and the mind straight in before the technical. I love how you phrase that.
Colleen Soppelsa 19:30
Yeah. Thank you very much. And this is just another way to see it. So going from I essentially went from the yellow quadrant at Toyota into the red one in aerospace and defense, more of that control environment, and what I noticed Andy is in working and being on cross functional teams, is how friction, which is just a neutral form of energy, how that is channeled differently within groups when there are opposed. Using viewpoints at Toyota, they tended to step up and towards each other. We also know, know, know of this is like NEMA washy. So they have a different way of managing through that friction in more of a control environment. Typically, there is two ideas that are opposing, and there has to be a winner and a loser. So I say it's like a choosing a one or a two, whereas in more of those collaborative environments, it's a one plus one equals three. So what I saw is as a real determining factor on how that friction is channeled. If it's a positive outcome or a negative one, it's how much caring there is in the environment. And that's was a really big takeaway. And this really took about two decades to come to this awareness and seeing how friction really defines that energy flow within organizations at the systemic level. So now I'm going to bring this into the context of hive mind, and what SiO is really trying to talk about and promote at her. At the core is this differentiation between the IQ and the EQ. So saying that, you know, if for IQ, it's organizations function like machines, where managers can fix problems with an engineer's mindset. So that's the intelligence quotient. And the second failure is people form social networks wherein individual influencers can make change happen by developing effective interpersonal relationships that emotional quotient so in organizations, were usually doing one or the other, and it's not that they're wrong, but it's just not enough. Now, our technology and our systems are so robust and interconnected that it requires a third type of intelligence, which is known as GQ, this group intelligence, and it's operating within a more of an ecosystem framework, and I'm going to go into some examples of exactly what she's talking about, but I'll pause here just for a moment, but I want to talk about these nine rules of group dynamics. I'm going to highlight three. So the ones I'm going to really talk about is the patterns, the role and the context. So when I was reading her book, it it put into such simple terms in the backdrop of this absolutely beautiful use, use of the analogy of a beehive. But she really tries to emphasize how these hidden, embedded agreements in the way we work within organizations needs to be more elevated, and the way she does this is very confronting, through images. I'm going to show you a variety of examples, but the key here is people need to see their role and responsibilities differently within those group interactions, there are many, you know, tools, from slack to teams to SharePoint that try to pull These groups together for better communication, but they're falling short, because, you know, their roles and their responsibilities are not changing. So she really identifies this is the primary mechanism through which change occurs. So that's really key, defining that role and putting it into the cut the correct context. And for me, as you know, like a Lean Six Sigma continuous improvement coach, I'm doing that in the context of technical problem solving. So here's one example, and she has about 30 from her book, but this is called the bad news pattern, and this would be an example of a current condition. So you're coming into a group of, say, 10 people, and through the very careful questioning by you to the group, you are going to create a narrative for that group. This one is we shut down the bad news, and it identifies very specifically, using images of like NASA and the engineers now the little curly arrow on the right side. That's showing the outcome. So what she's doing is pulling together a variety of elements to show a negative outcome, and that's escalating risk. Now on the right side this is this is going to have a new narrative, and that's going to be your future state. This one's the truth telling pattern. And what we see here, once again, are the same patterns. It's a NASA executive and a team member, but they're they're going to change their roles. They are no longer suppressors. They are now listeners. They are no longer the silenced ones, but they are the sharers. And you see that arrow off to the right side now it's pointed upwards, so that's identifying risks. So what she's doing is she's allowing the coach or facilitator to be a better guide in the discussion and to channel friction into a positive, more beneficial, a healthier outcome. Here's another example. This one's going from the reactive pattern into a forward thinking pattern. So what we're looking at here are two examples, and they very much look like value stream maps, but Andy, they're of behavior. And that was what was so uncomfortable for me, and why I had this like three month depression, is that I realized that in my training, I had never been I had never been shown process mapping or value stream mapping of behavior. Yeah, this felt so taboo to me. I felt like I had to abandon everything that I had learned at Toyota in these, you know, a three types of training sessions that we had, but this was very difficult for me to let go of my training. And I think for many of us, where we probably identify too closely to this lean as a discipline, or Six Sigma, whatever it is, it's really hard for you to sometimes let go of your mental models,
Andy Olrich 27:16
yeah, and especially if you've had great success and at times great struggle in holding that discipline to get those amazing results that you can get from something structured. And a lot of people go, No, we don't have time for that. Just get on and fix it. Exactly that piece to go, oh, geez, I got to, kind of, what do you mean? I got to kind of break the mix here and that the risk is everything else that I've done outside of that seems to not go well. And how do i Yeah, but I think the mapping of behavior, I think it's a it's an interesting thing to do. How would you map the behavior in your organization, not just show it through metrics or or churn, or all those things that you talked about as the challenges, it can be quite polarizing to try and draw this is how I see you. I think that's fascinating. And, yeah, these examples, if people, again, encourage you to jump onto their YouTube and check this out. You can see here the cycle. That's what's coming through here is those cycles of behaviors. What is that leading to? We punish those who make mistakes? Is the punishment pattern. And then on the right hand side is the experimental pattern, which is, we use experiments as opportunities for learning, so mistakes are celebrated in a lot of ways. I think that's definitely Boeing Mark grabbing. We've had him on a few times, and he talks a lot about this. You know, the mistakes that make us?
Colleen Soppelsa 28:40
Yeah, but it's very confronting. And Siobhan does caution facilitators and coaches, you know, you don't want to go into a group and then you assign them as the coach, their narrative. You have to be very delicate and how you are questioning them, but you have to allow the team to create its own narrative. You are guiding, and ultimately, you're the one that's helping them formulate their narrative. But you don't want to be the you don't want to go in and aggressively assign them a narrative. You have to allow them to basically reach the conclusions through your questions, which is then reveals these patterns within the system. But you know, to break it down, what I'm looking at here is basically the, well, this value stream, it's like Value Stream Mapping behavior. You have a title of the pattern. You have these roles defined almost as if they're actors on a stage. You're showing an outcome. Once again, that arrow off to the right side is if it's pointing down, it's a negative outcome. If it's pointing up, it's a positive one. This kind of reminds you almost of those. Fishbone diagrams, and then she gives all of these interactions a tagline. So that is what, what type of narrative is occurring within this group. So that's all very powerful. And why this is so different, it's because these symbols Andy, it's like it goes into a primitive area of our brain, and we can process these about 60,000 times faster than we can words. And something else that I found very interesting is these images, they have emotion in them. Like, when have you seen emotion involved in problem solving like never that's Oh, that feels, once again, very taboo. It's like we're crossing into this emotional space while being in the context of technical problem solving. It feels very uncomfortable. But at the same time that emotion the behavioral side, it's often the number one failure mode. But we're, we hold ourselves back from really addressing it. And what I'm showing here is just, you know, conceptually, high level, how this would look if it were integrated into lean. You know, I'm, I'm I'm using here kind of the a three logic, and giving you an example of how you would perhaps use these images in tandem with that a three problem solving. And here's six sigma using the DMAIC framework. Once again, this can integrate very you can blend this right in to whatever discipline. It's really discipline agnostic, and it's also agnostic to whatever problem you're solving and at whatever level.
Andy Olrich 31:53
I think that's an important point you make there is, we're not saying, you know, throw that other structure and framework away, and just all the babies. It's like, no, again. Use this to enhance, yeah, yeah. That's what's really coming through strong. And I totally see the link there between those two, the domain and the and the eight step, or the the a three type model that you showed, yeah, Where's, where's behavior in here, because we can have all the statements and numbers in the world, but if we're not behaving the right way.
Colleen Soppelsa 32:23
So Exactly, yeah. Now this is, I know this is a bit of an eye chart, but what I'm showing here is an A three example. This is a common type of logic method. It's usually about seven steps, but it's basically promoting scientific thinking and using a very data driven approach. But as many of us have experienced, there's oftentimes this behavioral side to all of the our group problem solving that we're not even addressing, and we are artificially excluding it from most of our conversations, but Siobhan now gives us a very easy tool that we can customize into our environments, and I recommend, you know, I put them off here to the right side, but this is really intended just to start getting us more comfortable in seeing both sides of this coin together, the scientific thinking side, that technical side along right next to the behavioral side, so they stop being addressed in separately, but we start to Get comfortable seeing them together, holding hands and working in a completely different way.
Andy Olrich 33:45
I see something, yeah, go ahead with it. Yeah. Do the above the line and the below the line type thinking that you see there. It's like, well, which are we looking at those two things and go, where do we want to be, and where are we actually operating behaviorally or culturally? I think, yeah, it's that's what's coming through for me, looking at these first time, yep.
Colleen Soppelsa 34:04
And this is just another example here. The current condition is the micromanagement pattern, like we've all been exposed to, that. That's your current condition. And then the future state would be the coaching pattern, yeah. So I would recommend, you know, integrating this into your a three alongside it. But also it begs the question to get to the future state that's part of you know your a three sustainment, so you could actually start to bring the behavioral side over into that a three, actual blending of the technical and the behavioral together. So there's a lot of ability to be creative with these, you know, with these visuals, that's what I really recommend, is, I hope, in a year or three years from now, I'm having a podcast. Cast on maybe a completely different topic. But if one thing I do, I do really embrace, it's the I celebrate experimentation and trying to reach beyond the limitations of where we currently are, especially if we're feeling like what we're currently doing is not that effective. This is the last one I'll show. Okay, this is, this is the approval pattern. That would be your current condition. We're showing three different parties showing slow progress. And the current in the future state is that innovation pattern. And this is better plan solutions, but all of the parties, once again, in these in these visual representations, they are going to be seeing themselves in completely new roles. They have a new narrative, and as a result of that, you will be changing their work standards, for example, to better support those new roles. And so that's what makes this so groundbreaking, is that it gets very confronting and very intentional and does not in any way threaten or violate any of the continuous improvement principles. So this was done about six months ago in an actual live session of 80 people. Half of those were remote, but I was invited as a guest speaker to this future of people at work symposium mountain San Luis Obispo, California, with John Shook and he admitted that when creating the a three, that they mistakenly left off the social side of the a three, because at Toyota, you really didn't need the social side. So obviously they didn't train on that. But now that we are trying to apply this in different environments that don't have the same type of type of caring that you you would see at Toyota being a more collaborative generally, a more collaborative environment. Different things are needed. Different approaches are needed.
Andy Olrich 37:23
Yeah, rolling back to that first slide that you shared around, when it happens all the time, why do so many lean or Lean Six Sigma implementations fail? What? What is it about Toyota? It keeps popping up. Why are they? Why are they continuously strong? And it's yeah, that cultural piece, and, yeah, people we've and I've fallen into that trap, and I will, again, is sometimes getting distracted by the technical the tools and the shiny things, right? Where, what's actually, how are we behaving when we're trying to implement or one of the a three examples you had up there was about something around 20% of your Kaizen improvements are slipping back after a while. Like, yeah, that's at least you're measuring that post tense. Like, a lot of them pop the cork and go, You beauty, we've made that improvement move on. So I think, yeah, the behavior, it won't sustain, and it's hard, and if it's not in the right place. So this has been, uh, it's been very, very interesting. And the scientific thinking is, yeah, it is a bit of a new frontier in a lot of places. So that the micro authors and the tele Schwartz's and, and those are the world. So again, having that, I guess, that freedom and that license to experiment and, and, hey, it's best practice. Not it's, it's strange and new wave. And look out it's Yeah, more of it, yep.
Colleen Soppelsa 38:46
So I did include some questions here. You know, that's generally if I have a live audience, but I just wanted to thank you once again. Andy, this has been a big honor. And you know, there's no silver bullet, but I am very much a big believer in sharing anything that is working out there that you feel is helping to get closer to solving the real problems. And so many people are seeing behavior, especially those group interactions, as their number one failure mode. And we can all be advocates for adaptation and that experimentation. So thanks again.
Andy Olrich 39:29
Look, it's been wonderful. And just, it's amazing. The power of that, the behavior, where it comes into whatever tool or approach you using is if we don't have the right behaviors, and that that clarity about, well, where do I actually fit here, and what is the behavior that we expect or wanting to see more of how do you measure that? And then the back, go back, the other way, again. I just think it's yeah, you've got to, you've got to hit them in the fields, and where do I fit in? So I really appreciate you being. On the show. Now, what we obviously this presentation will be available, and thank you for sharing that as a gift on the on the YouTube channel in particular, where people can have a look at this. But there's some acknowledgements. Would like to pop links to the material that you put in there, so Siobhan book, for example, and things like that. But also Colleen, where can people find you and continue with this conversation, if they'd like to.
Colleen Soppelsa 40:23
Yeah, well, I'm on on LinkedIn, so feel free to reach out. And I do have a dropbox folder with some presentations in there as well, but I'm, I'm always excited to top talk about this topic. It's gotten a lot of attention Systems Thinking is becoming a lot more popular, just as an overall topic. And I think this type of group dynamic, it's really at the heart, I hope it's at the heart of where a lot of AI and is directed into the future. It's influence, influencing better outcomes and helping to drive different directions of friction between people. It's just energy.
Andy Olrich 41:11
It's energy. That's a great way to summarize it. And I was having a discussion with someone, and this AI, it's new, and there's all these things that are accelerating right now. But I said, Well, look at Judoka, right? Automation with the human touch, right? It was right. Even if you just go back to the early, like to the mid 20s, when Toyota was, was, was finding their way with this, the human was there, and it had it wasn't just automation, it was automation and a human touch. So, yeah, it's also true. But at AI, you a robot can't give you a cuddle? Well, most of them. So thank you again. It's been great to have you on the show Colleen, and we'll put all the links down in the in the show notes, and again, to all of you who are listening watching both. We love having you and yeah, we'll catch you next time. Thanks very much.
Colleen Soppelsa 42:00
Thank you, Andy, bye, bye. You.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai