Speaker 1:
Welcome to How to Split a Toaster: A divorce podcast about saving your relationships from TruStory FM. Today on the show, can you split a toaster online?
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to the show, everyone. I'm Seth Nelson and as always, I'm here with my good friend, Pete Wright. Today, we're thrilled to welcome Susan Guthrie, a top family law and mediation attorney, who is, possibly more important, a legal top podcaster, Pete. We've got the real deal here today. She's a-
Pete Wright:
Aces.
Seth Nelson:
Aces all the way around. She's a leading dispute resolution professional. We'll explain those legal terms for you later, Pete. And she serves as executive counsel on the American Bar Association, Section of Dispute Resolution, as the member or the officer, and as the co-chair of the mediation committee in Annual Advanced Mediation Skills Institute. There's a lot going on there, Pete.
Pete Wright:
It's so many words, so many words.
Seth Nelson:
This is a big number, Pete. To date, more than 17,000 dispute resolution professionals have benefited from her program through Learn to Mediate Online, and she's the host of both the Divorce and Beyond podcast and Learn to Mediate Online podcast. My new BFF, Susan Guthrie, welcome to the toaster.
Susan Guthrie:
Thank you so much for having me guys. I'm so happy to be here, especially with welcomes like that. Thank you.
Pete Wright:
So many words. How do you have time for us?
Susan Guthrie:
I squeezed you in-between a podcast episode and a Mediation Institute planning committee meeting. So it's a bit busy.
Pete Wright:
That's a beautiful. It's just beautiful. Can we talk a little bit about what got you here? Because you were doing this professionally for couples, right? You were working in the field of the law and mediation yourself. And then somehow, you ended up deciding that it was your time to teach. How did that happen?
Susan Guthrie:
It really happened because of COVID. Like many people, I went through some shifts, or really what happened is my colleagues had to shift with the advent of COVID. So I had become an online practitioner several years ago when I started moving around the country, and I started working with people, doing mediation online. A couple of colleagues thought, "Oh, that sounds quirky and different. Can you tell me how to do it?" So I created a program, and then COVID hit.
Seth Nelson:
That's what you always want to hear.
Susan Guthrie:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, quirky and different.
Seth Nelson:
That sounds quirky and different.
Susan Guthrie:
Oh, yeah. Because they love quirky and different. We're so adaptable and open to new ideas.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, right. Meanwhile, check me in March 2021 and see if it's still quirky and different.
Susan Guthrie:
Well, now it's the norm. I was in the right place at the right time. But a year ago, right now, mediators, attorneys, professionals panicked. They suddenly were so used to meeting with clients in person, everything they did was in person, and they didn't know what the hell they were going to do, because they couldn't be in person anymore. So suddenly, my phone and my email started to blow up with, "Hey, wait, you're already online. You've got to show me how to do that." And suddenly, I was literally doing webinars twice a day, seven days a week for 500 people at a time and with people from all over the world. I had translators. I was in Brazil in the morning and Italy in the afternoon. And that's how we got to this.
Seth Nelson:
That's much how I spend my day, Susan, is I start in Brazil in the morning, and then I end up in Italy in the afternoon.
Susan Guthrie:
If only the food had come along with it, I would have been very happy. But unfortunately, I was just beaming in. But I loved it. I found that helping colleagues to expand their horizons, learn new ways of doing things really appealed to me. And from that, I've moved now into the training for mediation itself, not just online mediation for collaborative law, and I've teamed up with Woody Mosten who's one of the leading names in family mediation and we've started an academy. So it's very exciting, but that shift really came because my world suddenly needed the knowledge.
Pete Wright:
That's fascinating. I don't want to out anybody, but what was hard for them about making this transition? Where did you find your services and your education were most helpful? And if you have any stories about people showing up as cat avatars, I'll take them.
Susan Guthrie:
Happens all the time. So-
Seth Nelson:
And now she gets to bash lawyers. This is going to be good, Pete. You're going to love it because-
Susan Guthrie:
This is going to be fun. Yeah. Well, as we all know and as I alluded to earlier, attorneys tend to be very open-minded about trying new things and doing things in ways that they haven't done them before, that no attorney ever.
Seth Nelson:
Not true.
Susan Guthrie:
Yeah, it is absolutely not true. 100% not true. Attorneys need to look stupid. They hate to look like they don't know what they're doing. And to pile on top of that, if they don't look like they know what they're doing in front of their clients, I mean, they'd rather walk through hell than have that happen. So the panic that occurred was for both advocates, attorneys, in going to court online, going to mediation sessions online, as well as the mediators, the arbitrators. Everybody was worried about adding this layer of technology and not understanding how it worked, not doing it well, not being able to be as confident and on top of things as we are paid to do, whether we actually are or we aren't. And so there was literally that feeling of panic.
Seth Nelson:
Isn't there also the struggle as they're trying to figure how to bill their client for being in Brazil in the morning and Italy in the afternoon without having the billable hours in the flights?
Susan Guthrie:
Well, but what they-
Seth Nelson:
Let's be honest.
Susan Guthrie:
Yeah, and there's that, but then what they quickly learned is they can multitask if they're online. And so attorneys can double bill.
Pete Wright:
Is that a chapter in your training?
Susan Guthrie:
It is not.
Pete Wright:
That's fantastic.
Susan Guthrie:
It is not, and I don't highly recommend it. But as an example, people might be in a day-long mediation, where if you're sitting in a conference room with your client and the mediator goes to another conference room to talk to the other side, you're just sitting there, still in the breeze with your client filling the time. But if you're online, and in your office or in your home office, you can actually work on something else.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Susan Guthrie:
And it's billable time, and they're off doing something else. So there were some benefits that became apparent.
Seth Nelson:
I just had this conversation with a client about that, because we were online doing a mediation. And what I would ask the client is, "We're not waiting. There's some stuff that we need to talk about when they're in the other room and we can go through that process." And to your point, I said, "Would you like me to stop the clock and I'll pick up another file, and when the mediator comes back in, boom, or if I have an idea, I'll click back and forth?" And, of course, he was like, "Yeah, that's great." Because at some levels, when you're in a mediation and the mediator is in the other room, or in our case, the virtual room, there's work for me to do with my client, Pete. We've got to prepare what they might do, or counteroffer, or we're left to go find some documents, or we're working on the parenting plan.
Seth Nelson:
But after that's completed and you're just literally waiting to hear what the mediator has to say, there is some downtime. And there's a skill set for the law to keep the client engaged in a mediation like that, and not them wander off or go talk to someone they shouldn't and throw things off to the side. But it is much different when you're sitting here on Zoom doing a mediation than when you're in a conference room and you're just totally focused all day. There's a lot of distractions. Now personally, I'm not good at multitasking. I think it takes a lot to do one thing at a time very well, and that's why I focus. Other people have the ability to do it, just not me. But Susan, have you seen that same experience with your people you're coaching and your lawyers that you're working with?
Susan Guthrie:
Absolutely. It's pretty common. And if you think about it, the benefit is flowing in a few different ways there, and this is one of the reasons why clients are also fond of the online mediation platform, because of that ability to stop the clock. If your attorney is in court all day waiting out in the hallway for your case to be called, that client is getting billed for that time. The attorney may be talking to another attorney who happens to be there about another case, but in general, if they're in court all day, or if they're sitting in a mediation all day, you're getting billed for that entire day.
Susan Guthrie:
Of the many benefits of the virtual platform, one of the things the clients like is that their attorney isn't constantly on the clock and has that ability to go and manage other things or do other things. In fact, many day-long mediations where you know it's going to be that, if you know as the mediator that you're going to be with one side for quite an extended time, often, we'll give a date, or an hour pass, or a two-hour pass to the other side to log off and go get lunch, or go do something else, take the kids to ballet class, whatever they need to do, so that it doesn't even have to be multitasking. It can just be compartmentalize time.
Pete Wright:
You said something there that I think is important for us to pivot to if now is an okay time, which is the benefits of moving mediation online. It sounds to me like from your perspective, there are a lot of unrealized benefits moving online that we just never had when we were doing it face to face? Is this something that feels like a trend that we're going to continue because there are just fantastic joys of mediation in Zoom?
Susan Guthrie:
It's one of those things that I have to say, I was a big fan of online or virtual mediations long before COVID ever came along, and social distancing became the reason for it. And one of the things that we've found, we've actually done a lot of studies lately and surveys of mediators and asked, "Well, once we go past the need for social distancing, once COVID is hopefully ever over in our lives, will you go back to in person mediations?" And 100% of our over 2,000 respondents said, "I will either continue to offer my services both virtually and in person," or a large majority said, "I plan to stay entirely online." And nobody said, "I'm going to go back to in person alone." And that to me says, the benefits far exceed social distancing, safety.
Seth Nelson:
Right. Pete, think of this and we'll just give you a choice, right?
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
You have to go to a mediation, you're stressed out, you know you're going to be there all day. Would you rather get in your car, drive downtown, find parking, go up to a conference room, where you've never been before or even if you have, at your lawyer's office, it's just not your home environment, or sit at your kitchen table or on your couch?
Pete Wright:
It makes the former seem really old-fashioned at this time, right?
Susan Guthrie:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
And so that from a client perspective, it seems like I would not choose. Like, 100% of the time, I would not choose to be face to face. I would rather be in the safe space of my kitchen table where I'm comfortable, where my anxiety is reduced in some way, maybe not in every way. It seems like it's a real win. Seth, are you going to go back to face to face 100% of the time given all that now?
Seth Nelson:
Only if it's you, Pete. No, I think it is a client choice. I am pretty tech-savvy for a lawyer. Let's just qualify that compared to you, Pete. But I think these online meetings that I have with my clients via Zoom, where I can just bring up a document and we can edit it in real time, and they can see it on the screen, on a share screen, all of these types of things have been extremely beneficial to helping improve the communication that I am having with clients and clients are having with me, which then saves time, money, and gets better outcomes.
Seth Nelson:
Also, as we've talked about before, people's personalities are heightened when it comes to divorce and stressful situation. So if someone is anxious, they're going to be hyper-anxious. And to your point, if we can mitigate that a little bit by being in a comfortable home environment where they have, frankly, some control, right? They can control the temperature in their house. They can control what they're eating or is in their fridge. There's all these just basic, what I call, comforts that they have, that you don't get sitting at a stuffy conference room.
Susan Guthrie:
Yeah. I mean, it's actually the neuroscience of working with people online and the ability to communicate. Everybody thinks that because you're online, communication is lesser. It is not as good as when you're in person, "Oh, you're not going to see the body language." But in fact, studies show because 55% of our communication is actually facial expression, what's better than this platform that we're on right now where we're all seeing each other from the neck up or a little bit more. You're seeing every nuance of emotion that moves across somebody's face, the tightening of the eyes, the lines around the mouth as they deepen. Neuroscience has shown that conflict is going to happen, right? There's going to be a raising of cortisol and the stress hormones when you put two people in a room, whether it be virtual or not, to talk about the issues of their divorce.
Susan Guthrie:
I love that Seth says their personalities are amplified. Yes. Their emotions are going to go up. But studies have shown that when you are virtual, the level of the hormones don't go as high. You can still have stress, but it's not going to be ramped up as high as it is when you are sitting across a conference table from each other, which means for us as their mediators or their lawyers, we are able to work with our clients in a space where they're more open to hearing what's being said, and thinking reasonably, and making reasoned decisions. When people are hijacked by their emotions, that whole amygdala, lizard brain thing, they're not really thinking very clearly and that makes our job hard. When they're able to keep that emotion under control, which they're much more able to regulate online, they're able to think things through much more clearly. And that actually makes the process move more quickly.
Pete Wright:
Well, that was actually my next question. Yeah, we've been doing this a year longer now. Are there any stats that tell us that mediations are resolved more quickly online versus face to face?
Susan Guthrie:
I only know anecdotally what I hear from... I know my own experience now having been an online mediator for five or six years, definitely. So as a divorce mediator, I tend to work in sequential sessions. I do two-hour sessions, and the clients would come back once a week for two hours at a time. And it used to take five to seven on average. It varies for every couple, right? But since I've moved to an online platform, we've eliminated one or two of those sessions. It just will move. It's a more streamlined process. Part of that is because we also visually process things through what we can see.
Susan Guthrie:
So as Seth mentioned, being able to put documents up on the screen that we're all looking at the same thing, being able to put financial calculations on the screen so that we can talk about things, we process that more quickly and easily so they can move to the decision-making more quickly. I also regularly survey those 17,000 professionals who come from all different fields of law, to find out what their experience of online or virtual proceedings has been. And again, anecdotally, through those surveys, most feel that the process is less emotionally charged and more streamlined.
Pete Wright:
Do you get feedback from those that you have taught about their experience, having gone through your program, through Learn to Mediate Online, and get to see how the profession is evolving and moving forward?
Susan Guthrie:
Yeah, I'm lucky because my people who have taken my program, I think it's because they were so concerned about how they were going to continue to make a living.
Pete Wright:
Make a living.
Susan Guthrie:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Right. Right.
Susan Guthrie:
They went from a full slate of meetings to nothing without being able to go online. And so because they felt that I helped them in that scary time, or that difficult time, they tend to reach out to me fairly often. I get a daily inbox that's full of, "Hey, Susan, just did my 50th virtual mediation. Hey, Susan, just did a five-day long arbitration, went beautifully." I get a lot of that. And I do not get, "Hey, Susan, just went online and it sucked," or, "That didn't go well," or, "I hated that." I hardly ever hear that.
Seth Nelson:
On that front, it is different. Trying a case or going to a mediation virtually is different. You don't have that big moment that I play in my head all the time, Pete, where I bring out the smoking gun document. And when I'm in court, I hand it to them. And in my head, since there's no music in court, I hear, "Done, done, done."
Susan Guthrie:
Done, done.
Pete Wright:
Oh, yeah.
Seth Nelson:
But in online, in virtual trials which I've been in , in virtual mediations, it is just a different skill set where you are almost, I think, really have to be Uber-prepared. And I'm a guy that likes to prepare. But I need to make sure that my technology enhances the presentation, and does not hurt my presentation. So I will have all my exhibits open in whatever program I'm using so I can just click on them. I'm not going to search through my file system to find that.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Right? Especially when you're sharing screens and now you have all this other... I am really focused on what is in my little, Hollywood, square box, just dated myself, right? And what will the judge see? And what will the witness see? And that's all part of it, okay? And to really listen. There are things that happen on online trials that don't have any chance of happening in court. For example, when the witness says, 'Well, yeah. Well, according to my notes." And I'm like, "Excuse me, Your Honor. Sorry to object. I would like you to inquire of the witness, what is she looking at?" And the judge will say, "Ma'am, what are you looking at?"
Seth Nelson:
I'm making this up, "I'm looking at the contract that has my notes written on it." "Your Honor, Mr. Nelson, I've got it. Ma'am, you have to put that away. You can only look at the contract." "But my notes are on there." That doesn't happen in court. You're not allowed to bring your notes, right? And the witness that I'm talking about wasn't trying to do anything wrong, was actually trying to give truthful answers, but just needed to remember what they were going to say or what it meant. And it's all sorts of stuff like that that you really need to listen, because I am not going to know whether there are notes sitting on that desk.
Pete Wright:
Wait a minute. Just a point of order. May it please record. You're telling me that if I was a witness in a real courtroom, I'm not allowed to have any notes in front of me?
Seth Nelson:
Susan, take it away.
Susan Guthrie:
No, you're not. No, under certain circumstances.
Pete Wright:
All right. I'm saying we've been down this thing for months, and my mind is officially blown.
Seth Nelson:
Now, you can ask questions.
Susan Guthrie:
You can request... Yeah. Yes. Go ahead, Seth.
Seth Nelson:
Go ahead.
Susan Guthrie:
No, no, no. Go ahaed.
Seth Nelson:
Susan and I are both jumping in on this one, right? So this is one of my favorite things that you learn in law school. So here's a law school lesson. If I asked you a question and you don't remember exactly, Pete, and then you're not allowed to have your notes there, I can then ask you. So here's a hypothtical law school question, "Mr. Wright, do you remember the murder happening on this day?" And you're like, "No, I vaguely. I don't really." "Is there anything that could refresh your recollection, i.e. lawyer exhibit, to make you remember the murder that happened in the Italian restaurant on that day?" And you're like, "Yes." "Well, what would that be?" "A plate of spaghetti." And I bring in a plate of spaghetti and you smell the spaghetti. And you can almost taste the sauce. And then I say, "Now that you've smelled the spaghetti, does that refresh your recollection?" "Yes."
Pete Wright:
And I say, "I'd like a glass of wine now, please."
Susan Guthrie:
Chianti.
Pete Wright:
Exactly.
Susan Guthrie:
A nice Chianti.
Pete Wright:
A nice Chianti.
Seth Nelson:
"And yes, what happened?" "The guy got whacked." Right?
Pete Wright:
Yeah, right.
Seth Nelson:
I mean, it can be anything. But usually, it's, "Well, do you remember exactly what your son earned and whatever grade on that English exam?" "No." "Is there anything that would refresh your recollection?" "Yes." "What?" "The report card." And they hand you the report card, you look at the report card, you study it for a minute, you put it down, and then the lawyer says, "Does that refresh your recollection?" "Yes." "What was the grade?" "It was an A." Right?
Pete Wright:
Yeah, right.
Seth Nelson:
We have to jump through all these silly hoops, and there's a lot of evidentiary reasons why, but no, you don't just get your notes. And when you're in trial, I cannot tell if you've got a sticky note on your screen that you're reading from. I have no idea. So-
Pete Wright:
That says, "He got whacked in the Italian restaurant"?
Seth Nelson:
Exactly.
Susan Guthrie:
On March 14th, right?
Pete Wright:
I, of course, feel like I should know that. Of course, I feel like I should know that, but my mind was just seriously blown. Because this whole Zoom thing, it throws all of that for a loop. I get it now. I get it.
Susan Guthrie:
Well, it goes beyond that. And I love that, Seth, you brought this up. One of the biggest concerns, especially for mediators, because mediation is a confidential process. What happens in mediation is not supposed to be shared outside the four walls of the mediation room, right? So here's your issues.
Seth Nelson:
Susan, let me explain that to Pete. Okay, Pete-
Susan Guthrie:
Oh, is there Pete speech?
Seth Nelson:
... what happens in... Yes.
Pete Wright:
There is.
Seth Nelson:
I take [crosstalk 00:24:32].
Pete Wright:
Welcome to the slowdown moment here. Hold on.
Seth Nelson:
What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.
Pete Wright:
Oh, okay. I get it. Let's go on.
Seth Nelson:
What happens in mediation stays in mediation.
Pete Wright:
But you can't see what's outside of the four walls.
Susan Guthrie:
You can't see what's outside.
Pete Wright:
Who knows if there are 15 people coaching you on the other side of the monitor?
Susan Guthrie:
I had it. I had a case where I was doing a mediation and husband, wife, me, the three thumbnails on the screen got through this two-hour session. And then I get a call from the wife later in the day that she's just had a conversation with husband's new girlfriend, who was sitting on the other side of the computer screen during the mediation session, and who didn't like something the wife said about her. So they decided to get into a little tussle over it in the driveway at the drop-off. So no, you don't know who's on the other side. And when I asked the husband why he let his girlfriend sit in on a confidential mediation session, he said, "Well, I didn't realize I couldn't."
Pete Wright:
Yeah, to that point. Well, I think that is a great point. So how do you handle that as an educator now? I guess, there is this whole piece of you're having to educate people going into this accelerated Zoom experience, both in the technology and in the practical input, legal implications of the technology. Are they as shocked as I am? Please tell me, "No."
Susan Guthrie:
Yeah, I don't know. Probably the number one question I get asked by professionals is how to handle the confidentiality. And it's much what Seth said earlier about preparation. A successful online mediation, online trial, online arbitration, online meeting, is all in the preparation. It's 90% the preparation and then it's what goes in. But part of the preparation for anything that's virtual has to be setting some rules around what can and cannot be. You cannot have notes in front of you if you're a witness testifying. You cannot have your girlfriend sit in or other third parties who are not part of the mediation process present in the room, or who can overhear. You need to put them in writing, you need to communicate them to all the participants, and you need to educate them on why these are important, and you need to make them mandatory.
Susan Guthrie:
That as much as you can do, you cannot go through that camera and look around to see who's in the room, or to look at what the witness has in front of them on their desk. So you need to take charge by taking control and setting those rules, making sure everybody knows about them. So that's a huge part of my training program. And actually, one of the things that trainees receive is a copy of my guidelines and ground rules that I've developed over the years. A copy of the onboarding documents that I give to the attorneys, that I give to the clients, that I give to witnesses, that I give to everybody so that they know. Seth mentioned it earlier, you've got to have a good camera so that people can see you. You have to be well-lit so they can see the expression on your face. You need to have a good microphone. 55 or 57% of our communication is our facial expression, but 35% is the inflection in our voice.
Susan Guthrie:
So if you don't have good audio, then it's going to be an issue where people can't hear you. Good WiFi. They need to have a good internet connection. You guys have probably all experienced the joy and fun of someone who has a bad WiFi connection when you're trying to tape a podcast episode. That's a delight, right? So same thing in a mediation or a trial. If somebody's screen is constantly freezing, or their audio is going all wonky with that weird noise, it's not only a problem in the communication, it actually raises problems with unconscious bias. Because how irritated do you feel with the person who has bad WiFi when you're trying to get something accomplished? That can be really, really distractive or upset the applecart, so to speak, in a mediation or trial.
Seth Nelson:
There's also just some practical things to put your Zoom on gallery view and not speaker view because Zoom only picks up one sound at a time. And if someone rustles some paper, it might switch to them even though they're not speaking. So it also makes the presentation easier to keep a lookout on people's eye movement. If they keep looking off to someone as if they're looking for the answer, that's another thing. Now, I went to a Zoom meeting where judges put on a continuing legal education about Zoom trials. And they were very concerned that they weren't going to be able to judge character via Zoom. And to a person, they said, "It's actually easier because I'm focused right on them." In the courtroom, as we all see in the movies, Pete, the witness box is off to the side.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
So the judges constantly turn, or looking at evidence that's come in with their head down and making sure that it's getting recorded properly and entered into the court's docket system the way they do. So there's all these things that happen that can distract a judge from looking at the witness. And there are judges doing their job and doing it very well. They are multitasking when they're up there. So it is a benefit based on all of what Susan is saying on how we communicate as human beings.
Pete Wright:
You both are bringing up a point that I struggle with, and Susan said, "Unconscious bias." There is an issue of privilege too around this, right? That people who live in places that do not have access to the kind of internet that we require to be able to capture the nuance of facial expression and the tones in our voices. How much of this is a discussion that needs to happen of privilege in the divorce process? And are there risks of limiting fairness in this process because of this new world Zoom order?
Susan Guthrie:
Yeah, this has definitely been an issue through COVID, right? As the entire judicial system has had to move online, as mediation and dispute resolution have moved online. It's wonderful if you have clients or participants who have access to private high-speed internet, and have the availability of a laptop or computer which allows them large thumbnails. But we have a large part of our population who does not have that privilege. So you're 100% right. This is an ongoing access to justice issue. It's balanced by the fact that you have communities... I just was doing a training for the New Mexico court system. And New Mexico is a state where it's very spread out. And some people just don't have access. If they don't have a vehicle, they don't have access to even get to the courthouse. But if they were able to access a proceeding online, they have more access to justice in that fashion.
Susan Guthrie:
So it is a balance and it is something where I know in Chicago, where I live, it was on our voting referendum to have an allotment of money made available to make high-speed internet access available throughout all of the communities of the city, as opposed to just the communities which actually tended to be divided upon racial lines in Chicago, which segregated this city in and of itself. So that is an issue. One of the things that I found as the great leveler is thephone. Almost everyone has access to a cell phone, most of which will have access to the bandwidth in order to be able to videoconference successfully. And so most people will be able to participate, even if it's from the phone, on a video basis. Because that same bias that you were just talking about, Pete, applies to people who just phone in for a proceeding. If you are the one-
Pete Wright:
You're right.
Susan Guthrie:
... participant who's just a voice, and everyone else is visible, there's just an imbalance right there in and of itself. And so I always am encouraging people. I get people all the time who's like, "Oh, I'm having a bad hair day," or, "I'm still in my pajamas. I don't want to turn my camera on."
Seth Nelson:
That's what I say, Pete.
Susan Guthrie:
Right?
Seth Nelson:
Having a bad hair day.
Susan Guthrie:
Let me get to college today. I'm not turning on... Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Exactly.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
But to Susan's point about the phone, I think there's a couple of points there, is, one, and this goes back to also Susan's point about preparation, is you need to practice this with your client. If you're a client out there, you need to ask your lawyer, "I want to make sure my video and sound is good, is acceptable. I want you to see the background that I have, and make sure everything is clear of clutter and all that," because the judge is taking all of that in if you're in a trial situation. If you're in a mediation situation, you're not trying to persuade anyone there.
Seth Nelson:
So it's less important. But having good access is practice with the paralegal, practice with the legal assistant. If you are worried about it, ask your lawyer, "Do you have a laptop? Can I come to your office and sit in the conference room with a laptop?" Just like I'm responsible to make sure my client is getting to court, knows how to get there and where it is, I feel as the lawyer, I'm responsible to make sure that my client understands what we need and to provide what we need to get them online so we can present our case. And that once again goes to making sure you are totally prepared. You want the technology to enhance your presentation, not detract from it, which takes practice.
Pete Wright:
Seth, does that put a new... One of the things you've talked about in the past is, if the client doesn't have access to the stuff that they need, or can't get access to their account statements, whatever, they'll come in, and they'll work with your paralegal, and they'll go in the computer, and they'll download all the stuff that you need. Does that put a new responsibility as COVID opens up on you and the firm, to have client Zoom rooms like a Zoom booth where they can go in with guaranteed great access and a screen and privacy to do the kinds of things that they're going to need to do in court?
Seth Nelson:
If Zoom booth becomes a new word or phrase in our lexicon, it's all right back to you.
Susan Guthrie:
I'm telling you that in my next presentation, I will fully-
Pete Wright:
I'll take it.
Susan Guthrie:
... give you attribution.
Seth Nelson:
So I think that it is incumbent upon the attorney to make sure that there is a space in the office, and it can be a conference room that you would use anyway, to make sure that that is ready to go into practice. I've done mediations where I've had a client in my conference room and I've been in my office and we're on Zoom. I actually loved it because the mediator was there, we were social distancing. But I also got that interaction where I could be like, "Okay. The mediator is in the other room, I'm going to come in and chat with you." Put my mask on, go in the other room, and I think it just made the client at ease and eliminated for clients the potential home distractions.
Susan Guthrie:
Yes.
Seth Nelson:
Right? We've all seen it. I'm not going to tell anyone they don't know. And Susan hasn't experienced and, Pete, you haven't experienced, but the dog comes through, the kids come through, the guy next door is mowing his yard. I mean, all that stuff.
Pete Wright:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, there's always something.
Susan Guthrie:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Right. I was on a meeting the other day and they said, "It's not a COVID meeting without a technical problem these days."
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Right. Right.
Seth Nelson:
And so I think all of that plays into it.
Pete Wright:
Well, and who sets those standards? Right. I mean, there are standards for courtroom procedure that are set by... I don't know, the great body of courtroom procedure in the sky, the law, right? But who sets those standards for Zoom? And is there an official way to do this, right? And who gets to decide? What's the official way to do this?
Seth Nelson:
Oh, let's play bingo. Let's play bingo, Pete. You know what I'm going to say. Check your local jurisdiction.
Pete Wright:
There you go.
Seth Nelson:
But in Hillsborough County, they've come out with, "This is what you need to be. You're in court." They remind you you're in a courtroom.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Okay? But I really think it's upon the lawyer to make that happen. And Susan, in mediations, do you believe it's on the lawyer that's representing them or you as the mediator to say, "Hey, this is what's happening"? Who does that ultimately fall upon?
Susan Guthrie:
Well, under the mediators code of ethics, mediators are responsible for the process. But I believe strongly that a part of being responsible for the process is giving the information to your advocates, that they then need to disseminate to their clients. Very often, we as the mediators do not have access directly to the clients if they're represented. So we have to educate the advocates on what they need to do. But I agree with what Seth said, I believe it borders on malpractice to not properly prepare your client for going into any type of a virtual setting that may affect their case. Whether it's a deposition, or a hearing, or a mediation, you have to onboard your client properly. In fact, I've, throughout COVID, been hired by huge law firms to train their hundreds of attorneys on how to get their clients properly prepared to go into court.
Susan Guthrie:
And I think that's an absolutely necessary part, because you are going to prejudice your client if they show up and they have bad WiFi, or they don't know how to use the screen share, or they have their camera set up so that this is what we're seeing, the top of their head. I mean, how expressive is that? It's like they're wearing a mask. Or my very favorite, the up the nose shot. I've seen more of people's nostrils during COVID than I ever need to see, or deep throat, right? Where they have the bright light behind them and no light in front of them. So it's very important that people take the time and attorneys will have to change. As much as they love change, attorneys are going to have to adapt to what the client needs are.
Susan Guthrie:
And I think actually, I am going to glom Zoom Room because I do think I know firms that have instituted that they have virtual suites, because what we're looking at for the future of virtual is hybrids. As we get past COVID and people can go back to being in person, what we're going to see for sure, 100%, is that some people are going to want to be in person, and some people are going to beam in remotely. And you're going to have that in trials where witnesses or your experts who are from California and you're having a trial in New York, they're not going to fly in anymore, they're going to beam in like the great and powerful Oz on the wall. But you may have other witnesses who are in the courtroom. There is a huge psychological and technological challenges that come along with doing hybrids, whether they be hired for trials, or mediations, and that's where people really need to start stepping up their understanding of how to handle it as a mediator.
Susan Guthrie:
So if you can put yourself in these shoes. So you're there with your client and the mediator, and the other attorney and client are on a screen on the wall. Just feel how that feels in the room. Or where you're co-mediating and you have one mediator in the room and one mediator on the wall. I've been that mediator on the wall, you get ignored, you feel lesser, and that can be very destructive to the mediation process where neutrality and equality are so important and the feelings. I know a lot of law firms that are instituting virtual suites. And this idea of a Zoom Room, think about all of the coworking spaces that have the little mini phone booths and stuff.
Pete Wright:
A phone booth. Yeah.
Susan Guthrie:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
You need a Zoom booth. Right.
Susan Guthrie:
You need a Zoom booth.
Seth Nelson:
Right.
Susan Guthrie:
I can see that becoming quite the thing for really fully-equipped firms.
Seth Nelson:
I'm just wondering at what age that they're listening. Like, what's a phone booth? Isn't that what Superman used? All right.
Pete Wright:
Isn't that what Superman used?
Susan Guthrie:
When you dialed like this-
Pete Wright:
That's like an onion of dating yourself.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, I know. I'm going.
Pete Wright:
We already didn't know what a phone booth was, but Superman was in it?
Susan Guthrie:
Well, we've only talked about-
Seth Nelson:
Exactly.
Susan Guthrie:
... Hollywood Squares. So-
Pete Wright:
Yeah, right. Circle gets the square, boomer.
Seth Nelson:
And Susan is like, "Oh, we need this and here's where the future is going." And I'm just like, "Can I get my-"
Pete Wright:
What about my oatmeal?
Seth Nelson:
Can I get my Rolodex out? And kids no longer sit on phone books when they need to reach up in the table.
Pete Wright:
That's true. There are no phone books.
Seth Nelson:
So much has changed in the world and the wall.
Pete Wright:
I can't even imagine, Seth, that you have your cell phone, but you have one of those big shoulder arms that come off so you can balance it on your shoulder?
Seth Nelson:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Remember that?
Seth Nelson:
I actually still have the first ever series of iPhone, Pete. You probably remember. It was the rotary dial one.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Well, I'll tell you, I've learned a ton. I feel like we could talk about this all day. But Susan, what a gift you are to our show. Thank you so much.
Susan Guthrie:
Oh, thank you for having me on. I could talk about this stuff all day. So I appreciate the opportunity.
Pete Wright:
Well, like so many good Zoom podcasts, we can actually let you go multitask now, if you'd like.
Susan Guthrie:
That's right. She squeezed us in, Pete.
Pete Wright:
Right. She really squeezed us in. I'll tell you, we did our best to pitch you in the beginning in our little introduction of you, but we need to hear from you, where can people find all of the goodies that you are putting into the world?
Susan Guthrie:
So my two podcasts are the Divorce and Beyond podcast. You can find that on all major podcast outlets, or divorceandbeyondpod.com. And I have a members community there for people who want a little bit more of what I have. And then, learntomediateonline.com is one of my training websites, where you can find all the online stuff. I have free videos. The podcast lives there, all kinds of information. And then Woody and I have now started the mediation academy. So it's called Mosten Guthrie Academy, mostenguthrie.com is the website. And we are really trying to bring top tier mediation trainings, collaborative law trainings to an online space. They're all virtual, and we have several during the year. We've been really lucky they've all sold out, but we have a slate, I think, of five or six really unique trainings coming up. And so for the professionals out there who want to uplevel their skill sets, I highly recommend they go check that out.
Pete Wright:
Excellent. Susan Guthrie, thank you so much. And Seth, always a pleasure, my friend.
Seth Nelson:
Always a pleasure, Pete. And like I said, we've got a new BFF with Susan Guthrie. Life is good.
Pete Wright:
I know, right? Hey, I wanted to tell you as we wrap up, I got you a present. Do you know what it is? I got yo a present.
Seth Nelson:
I'm a little nervous about this.
Susan Guthrie:
A toaster.
Pete Wright:
All you've got to do, I finally registered howtosplitatoaster.com. That's right.
Seth Nelson:
Amen, brother.
Pete Wright:
If you want to find us, visit howtosplitatoaster.com. Thank you, everybody, for downloading and listening to this show. We sure appreciate your time and your attention. On behalf of Susan Guthrie and Seth Nelson, I'm Pete Wright. We'll catch you next season. We're going to take a little bit of a break here, but we'll be back in a few weeks right here on How to Split a Toaster: A divorce podcast about saving your relationships.
Speaker 5:
Seth Nelson is an attorney with Nelson Koster Family Law and Mediation, with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How to Split a Toaster is not intended to, nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of Nelson Koster. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
This transcript was exported on Mar 26, 2021 - view latest version here.
toaster_212 (Completed 03/20/21)
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