In this Tangents episode we speak with AKSHAY MEHRA, Assistant Professor in the Department of Earth and Space Sciences at the University of Washington. Akshay's journey from architecture to geosciences highlights the value of curiosity, mentorship, and interdisciplinary collaboration. His experience demonstrates the potential for architects to contribute to scientific research and engage with complex issues in a rigorous and impactful manner.
Highlights:
Highlights:
- How a background in architecture led to a PhD in geosciences
- How the skills learned in architecture, such as spatial thinking and communication, proved to be valuable in other fields.
- Reaching out to experts in other fields can lead to fruitful collaborations and new perspectives.
- Mentors play a crucial role in guiding and supporting career development.
- Integrating rigorous scientific research into architecture can lead to more impactful and meaningful design solutions.
Creators & Guests
What is Tangents by Out of Architecture?
Welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture, hosted by Silvia Lee. Weāre highlighting some of our favorite stories from the amazing people weāve met along our journey. We will hear how they created a unique career path for themselves from the variety of skills and talents they developed in and out of architecture.
Out of Architecture is a career consulting firm started by two Harvard-educated professionals interested in exploring the value of their skills both in and out of the architectural profession. Weāre here to help you maximize all of the expertise you have honed as a designer to get you a role that fulfills and challenges you. We have the knowledge, experience, and connections to help you put your best self into the marketāand reap the benefits.
Ep 8: The Value Architects Bring Beyond Design āØwith Professor of Earth Sciences Akshay Mehra
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Akshay: [00:00:00] I think one thing I feel very strongly about is that architecture school does prepare us for these other fields. And the biggest issue for me was that I just didn't know that those worlds were out there.
Akshay: you just don't know what actually exists outside of this realm. And while you're in undergrad, especially, or even in grad school for architecture, that's all, you know, it's all consuming. You spend every day in studio. It's even when you are touching on research or these other things are always directly tied right back to architecture. And so it becomes hard to know what are these other paths and how do I actually get on them?
Silvia: Welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture. Out of Architecture is a career resource network helping designers apply their incredible talents in untraditional ways. We're highlighting some of our favorite stories from the amazing people we've met along the way. We will hear how they created a unique career path for themselves from the wide variety of skills and talents they developed in and out of architecture.
Silvia: Our guest today, Akshay Mera, assistant professor in the department [00:01:00] of earth and space sciences at the university of Washington. Akshay's his journey from architecture to geoscience shows how inquisitive architects have the potential to make significant contributions to fields beyond design.
Silvia: The question we'd like to get started with is, how would you describe yourself in three words?
Akshay: Inquisitive, driven, and then I'd say curious. Curious and inquisitive are the same word, so maybe something like, oh, that's a, I don't actually know.
Akshay: That's a good question.
Silvia: Very inquisitive and driven. And what is your background in architecture?
Akshay: Sure. So I did my bachelor of architecture from Cornell University. I graduated in 2011. Then I went and I worked at Situ Studios, which is, or Situ Studio, which is a design firm in Brooklyn, New York. And I worked there for two years.
Akshay: And then since 2013, I actually started a different track entirely. So now I have a PhD in geosciences and I'm a professor at the university of [00:02:00] Washington.
Silvia: And can you share more about what you're currently up to and also maybe get into like earth sciences, geosciences a
Akshay: little more? Yeah, absolutely. So I just started at UW in January.
Akshay: So it's only been a few months and my lab, which is very new and doesn't have many people in it yet, essentially focuses on looking at the form of different Sedimentary structures, igneous structures. So these are all different kinds of rocks. And so all of these rocks have different features in them.
Akshay: You might think of igneous rocks as having different crystal sizes. If you think about sedimentary rocks, they're made up of biological remains. So fossils, but they also remain. They also have these chemical sediments that make them up. And so I'm interested in what the size and the shape and the distribution of those features tell us about our planet's past.
Akshay: And so we do a lot of morphological analyses. In our lab. That's
Silvia: very cool. And I'm so curious to know how an architect goes on this journey. It ends up here.
Akshay: Yeah, absolutely. Left undergrad [00:03:00] knowing that what I really enjoyed was the research and the theory of architecture. And so while at Cornell, the classes I gravitated most towards were these upper level seminars where really they were about readings and talking about theory.
Akshay: And I was not as. At the sort of putting it together a project and actually doing that last part of getting the drawings up and going through reviews and whatnot. So I already knew that I was much more interested in the theory and the research aspect of architecture. And then when I left undergrad, I went and worked at Situ and Situ does fabrication work, but they also had a research arm.
Akshay: And at the time, the research arm was working with forensic architecture, which is A. L. Weissman's ERC funded project, which now is its own thing. I think it's based out of Goldsmiths in London now, but. And yeah, and forensic architecture working together on a set of these projects that involve human rights violations.
Akshay: And then working on how do we think about mapping these violations? How do we think about essentially contributing to advocacy purposes or legal purposes by maybe doing reconstructions [00:04:00] or thinking about doing some modeling, maybe looking at urban environments and deciding, well, would a specific munition hit a specific building?
Akshay: So questions like that. And there's a huge amount of spatial awareness that's required in all of these projects. And I'm pretty sure I got started on that research because I had GIS experience because I took an environmental class in undergrad. And so I started doing GIS work. I was largely still doing fabrication, but I started doing GIS work on these research projects and shifted over.
Akshay: It aligned a lot better with my sort of nature of being interested in thinking about theory and research and applying those. Ideas and so I worked on a set of projects there and I kept working on a set of projects and I've continued to work with Situ through the years. But what ended up happening was as part of this research arm, a professor at Princeton came to us.
Akshay: Basically, what he had done with a graduate student was. He had taken a rock sample that contained these 650 million year old sponges, and what he did was grind away about 30 microns of material, or 50 microns of material, I forgot the exact number, and you basically had a [00:05:00] graduate student sitting there under a surface grinder and like grinding away some material, and then once you had a flat surface, what you do is you would take it over to a flatbed scanner, and then Put some oil down and then scan that surface and then you do that again and again until you destroy the sample, but you end up with a stack of sections.
Akshay: So those are just like any sort of sections that we might make through a building or whatnot. But this is through a fossil. And then you can build a 3D model because you just as we do in architecture, you can loft between all these cross sections and then you end up with this. So anyways, the professor had already done that he had worked with people at Situ before, and they had published a paper on this specific project.
Akshay: But the thing is, if you have someone manually sitting there and grinding, that is a really like time intensive task. And what the professor was interested in was what if we were to automate this and Situ did a whole bunch of stuff with fabrication. And so we're used to CNC machining. We understand how to do, how to do those automated processes.
Akshay: And I got put on that project. And so it really was specking out. And I think. The professor already had a grant. So I had funding from the NSF to do this. And it was specking out a surface grinder, specking out a camera and it's working on like, how would this workflow [00:06:00] actually go? And at some point in, by second year at Situ, this professor came and visited.
Akshay: He was like at the he's at Princeton. So he just took the train down. He was visiting for the day to talk about our progress. And he basically, it was just me and him sitting there and he was like, Oh, have you thought about grad school? And I was like, now that I've been working on all of these things, I think maybe industrial design or computer vision, I think there are these ideas.
Akshay: I think I could go in multiple directions. So yeah, I've thought about grad school and he's like, Oh, you should think about geosciences. And I was like, look, I've never looked at a rock. I, and he was like, Oh, there are a lot of people in the department that haven't looked at a rock, which is a lie. But at the time I didn't realize that.
Akshay: And so I applied and I got in. And it was this opportunity of, okay, I can continue working on this question. And he had sent me a whole set of books to read, or at least a list of things to read. And I was like, you know what, this is interesting. And there are a lot of these parallels between architecture and earth sciences and.
Akshay: I was just drawn into it. And so I went ahead and said, yes, I'm going to do this. And in many ways, the driving force was [00:07:00] partially my curiosity, partially also because as we're working on these cases, so we're producing evidence for courts. One of the pushbacks we'd get is you guys are architects who's qualified to make these statements.
Akshay: And being a geoscientist with a PhD sort of enables you to have those qualifications, right? It is, yes, I've worked with remote sensing data. Yes, I've done an XYZ. I understand these methods. I. Period like I've published in peer review journal, so I'm now at this time at this point in my life where I can serve in it as an expert.
Akshay: And so that was the other driving force here, which was actually getting a terminal degree is very useful for advocacy work as well. And so. Anyways, that's my path into grad school. And then from there. So I first went in, I was like, I'm going to do my two years. I'm going to get a master's cause you can do a master's on your way to a PhD.
Akshay: People don't realize this, but most PhDs, you can always exit after what are called your qualifying exam. So at the end of your two year mark, you have a set of these exams and they basically, Uh, test you on the stuff that you're supposed to know as your P in your area of expertise. And what [00:08:00] happens is you can exit after that exam and you will get a master's like you've done enough for a master's.
Akshay: And so I was like, okay, I'll just do my master's and you get to the point where you finish your qualifying exams. And at that point I had. Three projects running and I was like, okay, I need to finish these projects to started them. So I'll wait until my PhD is over and then I'll go back into design world or whatever else I want to do.
Akshay: And then by the time your PhD finishes, now I have five projects or 10 projects and they're all outstanding. And I lined up a postdoc like, okay, let me go do my postdoc. I'll finish this up. And then by the time you finish your postdoc or you're like looking for jobs, you're like, okay, this is what I know.
Akshay: I've been doing this for nine years now. I guess I should see this through. And so that's how I ended up as a professor.
Silvia: I love that journey because it just felt so organic and natural. Like it didn't, I feel sometimes like your architectural journey is very forced, right? This is what I believe is supposed to happen.
Silvia: I'm supposed to follow this path, get licensed, work in a firm, do these projects, but it was just, and I feel like you didn't have that like end goal insight, but you just followed your [00:09:00] passions.
Akshay: Yeah. Yeah. And I think one thing I feel very strongly about is that architecture school does prepare us for these other fields. And the biggest issue for me was that I just didn't know that those worlds were out there. And you mentioned this when we were talking before the podcast, I was like, you just don't know what actually exists outside of this realm. And while you're in undergrad, especially, or even in grad school for architecture, that's all, you know, it's all consuming. You spend every day in studio. It's even when you are touching on research or these other things are always directly tied right back to architecture. And so it becomes hard to know what are these other paths and how do I actually get on them? And I got lucky. I had this chance encounter or like I happened to work at the right firm and I worked on the right project.
Akshay: And so all this started, but I do think the nice part was I was prepared through my education to handle these things. And there are parts of. Earth sciences and geology. We talk about sections a lot. We talk about things like orientation and we talk about a lot of these spatial relationships throughout all of geology and earth sciences.
Akshay: And so we talk about morphology, et cetera. So those are [00:10:00] directly translatable. So it's not like I had to learn a new skillset there. What I had to learn was a new language and I had to learn all of these things that you don't do in architecture school. So how do you write a pure reviewed paper? So how do you write How do you do the scientific method in a rigorous way?
Akshay: But those are things you can pick up in a year or two. And the nice part about grad school is you do have a lot of advisors kind of directly involved. And so you're never doing this alone. And so that's a nice part of that transition.
Silvia: What did you respond to when you were finding a place to work? Or maybe did you advocate more for yourself?
Silvia: I love this project, or I'm really into research. Because I think that we all have the same like education in the same way, but we all receive it differently. And we all Like appeal to different things and then we'll jump at different opportunities. And I totally agree that you have to be, the opportunity will come to you, but you also have to grab it and take it somewhere.
Akshay: Yeah. And I think you're exactly right. Like you do, when you do have the opportunity, you have to take it. And I think [00:11:00] what was helpful for me was I worked at architecture firms in undergrad, like over the summer and whatnot. And I got that chance to say, I enjoy this. I enjoy going into the office, but I'm just, it feels like a job to me in a way that.
Akshay: Especially when you're in school and studio, those don't feel like their jobs. I feel like acts of passion or whatever, like it's something that you're doing because you're passionate about. And then being like, okay, I'm like going in at nine, I got to finish these drawings and I got to head out. I just didn't feel that sort of connection to it.
Akshay: And so I think I knew when I was looking for jobs as I left. I wanted to find something that would be interesting and engaging and still allow me to do a lot of the research stuff. And part of that was, I just didn't get much feedback. You send out these applications and no one ever gets back to you.
Akshay: And I don't know the exact paths to get into some of these bigger firms. Like I didn't know personally, I didn't intern at them when I was going through. undergrad. And so really I got lucky in the sense that Situ was open to that. And, and like I said, I went there first for fabrication and actually my deep interest at the time was [00:12:00] doing parametric design stuff.
Akshay: And so doing a lot of the programming in Grasshopper and whatnot, and that's where it started and getting these opportunities and seeing that this was another thing I could work on seemed, okay, maybe I'll go do that for a bit. And then it's like, I slowly jettisoned a lot part, a lot of the parts of architecture that just didn't resonate with me.
Silvia: Yeah, that's really cool. I feel like architecture school, they teach you so many things. Indirectly, and it like so sometimes you don't even realize what they're trying to get out of it, those studio projects, because they could be very big, and you don't realize that you're putting together like how to present ideas and carry them through different iterations, but I feel like.
Silvia: I wish they would more explicitly tell you that like what you're forming, like your own point of view, your vision, because like you said, you took a parametric modeling, but then you integrated it and applied it with some passion. And then now like you're in a totally different arena. And I feel like. I want to encourage people to like take more of themselves and [00:13:00] put them into their work and like their skills and not have them be separate things.
Akshay: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I think with a lot of creative endeavors, that's the case, right? Which is ultimately you have to kind of say, this is what I really care about. So I'm going to go down this path and see what that path opens up. And yeah, for me, I got lucky. It's, and I wish I had a better sense of this when I was an undergrad, which was, it's very clear that what I'm really gravitating towards is not what I'm doing.
Akshay: It's not putting together the final drawing set for, or it's doing everything up to that point. Like it's all about that research, the kind of going to the library and reading a whole bunch and all that stuff. And so I wish I had someone who was. Would have looked at me and said, Oh, actually, that's maybe what you want to go focus on.
Akshay: You probably don't want to go get a license because you're not going to be happy in that space. The other thing I will say about architecture, which is really nice, like doing a degree in architecture is the skills I developed, not just in thinking about space and thinking about relationships, but also about communication and how to do these drawings, how to [00:14:00] think about how do you clean up an idea such that you can diagram it, all that stuff is.
Akshay: Useful outside of that sphere of architecture. And I think that's something I would tell anyone who's pursuing a degree in it, which is there are many spaces where you will repeat those skills, even if you never put together a set of plans. And
Silvia: I'm so curious, I feel like if OAA or people that have left architecture were to create an architecture course, they would share about all the applications of the skills that you have in different realms.
Silvia: And I feel like that would actually enrich your architectural education so much more Worrying about grades, worrying about your deliverables. Oh no, if I don't have this section drawn the way that they shown me, I'm not going to get an a, but instead of exploring, can you elaborate about the sections?
Silvia: Because I think it's amazing that like, it's a way of thinking of seeing and then
Akshay: communicating. Yeah, absolutely. So there are multiple scales in, in earth sciences where you think about spatial relationships, right? So. If you go and [00:15:00] you could even go to the Grand Canyon and you're interested in how the layers extend, right?
Akshay: So you look into the canyons and you can see these layers. Every single time you get a cross section through it, you kind of get one vision into the stack of rocks. If you think about it in a three dimensional and a spatial sense, you can link those together and you can imagine how these layers, they're not always perfectly flat, like a layer cake.
Akshay: Sometimes they pinch out. There are ways that you can measure it. And so that that's usually where undergraduates and people who are new to geology kind of struggle, which is how do I describe this, the orientation of this layer in space? And I think for an architect, it's really easy because you've thought about three dimensional space so much.
Akshay: And it's something where, because I did five years of training in it, it's second nature in a way that I don't realize. That it's not easily accessible to everyone. It's one of those things where I'm like, yeah, that's just how it's oriented. And it takes some people much longer. And then, so there's the large scale stuff.
Akshay: So you might be thinking of like how these layers extend. You might be looking at also, you might be looking at, Oh, where are these layers broken, et cetera. Then there's like the small scale [00:16:00] stuff. So we get down to the fossil level and it's okay. I need to reconstruct the morphology and the shape and the form of this fossil.
Akshay: So how do I go about and do that? And so there are many ways you can put that in an x ray CT machine. You can just scan it and you get this beautiful reconstruction. But sometimes. Fossils can't be processed that way. And so we use this sort of grinding through and making serial sections and that's your section is straight out of like how you would do it in a building.
Akshay: Right. So you take a building and you draw like your six sections through and you look at the cross section. So it's exactly the same process, just on a micron scale instead of a, whatever, a hundred meter, a hundred feet scale. Right. So. That is a direct translation. And then thinking about how you link those together and what are you missing?
Akshay: Like, what kind of information are you missing between each layer? Each sample, each section is an interesting concept. And so I think Those five years of spatial training are so critically important to the way that I think about these things. And then I think about questions like, Oh, how are we actually going to measure this form?
Akshay: You think about projections and all of those sort of things that get drilled into you very early on. And then you're like, [00:17:00] okay, actually, if I want to get the most accurate estimate of the diameter of this, I need to project it so that it's like normal or perpendicular to the plane of projection. And so even those like really basic things, it's amazing how they're second nature.
Akshay: To us, but it's not necessarily something that outside of the sort of spatial fields you really think about. Yeah, there. Once again, I think so much of this stuff is translatable, even though they're very like. Subject matter is esoteric and in this totally different
Silvia: world. What was your experience like when you went to grad school and everyone, does everyone have a different background or are you more like
Akshay: the outlier?
Akshay: Yeah. So one thing I tell my undergrads now when undergrads are interested in going to grad school, even if they're in earth sciences, ultimately for most grad programs, it depends on the program. For example, in economics, you don't ever actually know who your advisor is before you apply. And that's a lot harder of a situation.
Akshay: For example, in earth sciences, in a lot of the earth science, a lot of natural sciences, you actually reach out to your advisor first. And so your advisor is like the person who serves as a gatekeeper to like letting you into [00:18:00] grad school. And so ultimately, as long as you have the right grades and you can justify why you want to go do something, and maybe you have some background in it, you can get through that filter of, I need to get into a PhD program.
Akshay: And most, not in all cases, right? Professional degree is not the case. Like some of these specific science is not the case like, like economics, but in a lot of natural sciences, that actually is the case. And so if you are engaged in vibe with your potential advisor, you might be able to get in. That's the point where you are now on your own.
Akshay: And that's the point where I was completely lost. So I didn't know the language. Everyone who I started with, for the most part, they were all, they had all done geosciences from the beginning, since undergrad. So it was just, it was a real struggle, honestly, initially, it's really about a language translation.
Akshay: So once you understand how people speak about these things, once you've done enough reading into them, that sort of uncertainty disappears or that, that lack of knowledge. And then, you know, a lot of grad school is about focusing in on one problem. So eventually you've [00:19:00] drilled into a problem such that you are probably in your department, the only expert on that one problem, even more so than your advisor.
Akshay: And so at that point, It's actually okay. Like you don't feel the same sense of, Oh, I'm way behind the other students in my cohort, or for example. And so, yeah, once we got to that kind of point, it, I felt a lot more comfortable, but that first year and a half was pretty rough. I was just. I was way out of, I was just like in the deep, out of my depth, like just trying to understand what I have to do to stay afloat.
Akshay: And then once we got past that point, it became something totally different, like a really enjoyable experience.
Silvia: Yeah, I bet. I'm sure all that unknown, it's just, I'm going to keep moving. Like I feel strongly about this, but I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm just going to
Akshay: do it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think one benefit I've always had, and I think especially people who come from architecture or anyone who's changing careers, actually, honestly, is that.
Akshay: You already have a career and a sort of vision of what else you could do. So when I came into grad [00:20:00] school, if everything just goes wrong, I still know I can go do something else. Like I have this experience. I have this like deep experience in something and it's, I can imagine multiple avenues that I might go if like, I just, this completely bumps.
Akshay: And so I think that's something to hold onto, which is when you are someone who is entering a new career path, you already come with. A set of potential paths that you also could go down and that kind of should give you some security. If you're trying something new to be like, okay, I can always revert. I can always go back and like, I can always start doing drawings and yeah, I'd start at the bottom, but I can.
Akshay: Oh, I know that's a path I could do if I had to. And so that's helpful.
Silvia: Yeah, absolutely. I felt similarly that if I'm trying a new career path and like, I know it's related to income because that's why we work. So it's not completely flexible, but I can explore these alternative career paths because I can always go back to being an architect.
Silvia: Someone will hire me. Someone needs me. Someone to draw something or manage a project. Yeah. [00:21:00] So I feel like it should give you a little encouragement to explore and explore anything. And I like how you say that you have these skills because I don't think that's something if you're applying to an architect, like a traditional job that you don't really take that confidence with you.
Silvia: I can build your building. I feel like if you show up in an interview and you're like that confident, people will be like, let's like really like figure it out if you can, but. I think when you go to other professions, like you should absolutely take all the skills you learned as an architect and be confident that you can do these like project management or like detail oriented work or whatever it is and figure out what, how to connect the dots.
Akshay: Absolutely. Yeah, I think you're exactly right. Those are all skills and they're valuable skills outside of. Of our field, and in many ways, there are skills that people don't necessarily know that you need to have. So, this happens a lot with my figures, like, I worry about line weights, I worry about [00:22:00] layering, I worry about all of these things.
Akshay: And ultimately, people are like, oh, I really like your figures. And it's, yeah, this is after so many years of having to worry about, yes, my line weights are off, and so this doesn't actually read correctly. Those same skills translate, and it's not something that, it's something that I've thought a lot about, which is how do we train.
Akshay: Scientists to think that same way and to do the visual communication. And clearly some people have made whole careers out of teaching visual communication, but I think that is a piece that anyone at an architecture firm would take for granted. They'd be like, of course you should know which line weights to use to do this like cross section.
Akshay: But when you'd go outside of the field of architecture, that's actually a skill that not everyone has. Right. And so to know that is really. Important. And then, like you're saying, you might even actually advertise that, right? Like these are the skills that make you unique.
Silvia: That is hilarious. Like all the examples that you keep bringing up, like sections and line weights, like architects know this so intimately and like the experience of learning it, [00:23:00] choosing the wrong one, like people, like either your boss or your professor, like wrong line way too dark, but like.
Silvia: Also, when you have your final product and you like you have conveyed like what you wanted to stand out and what you want it to be like a background detail and it shows beautifully. So there is so much thought into that. I guess only architects
Akshay: know. Yeah, it's just something that like you're saying you get a lot of feedback on.
Akshay: And I think a lot of skills are about feedback. And so when you spend Five years of your life or more getting feedback on these sort of things. It gets ingrained in a way that you always have it after that, right? Even if you'd never think about it. As soon as you open up illustrator, like the first thing you're going to do is check your line weights and be like, actually that the reason this doesn't read is because all those internal lines are way too heavy.
Akshay: And so I think that's something that there are a lot of these things that enter our subconscious that we are now just they're ingrained in us. And we don't realize that they're actually skills and [00:24:00] that people haven't spent five years getting red lines through their drawings every week for five years.
Akshay: And that's when you will develop those skills. So.
Silvia: Yeah, usually our like conversations are more geared people leaving the profession, but I feel but another thing I wanted this podcast to do was to celebrate what architects know how to do. And I feel like that is all embodied in this conversation. So that makes me so
Akshay: happy.
Akshay: Yeah, I've benefited a ton. And the thing is, when I started Grad school, I just hit it. Like, I didn't want people to know that was my undergrad because you enter these like competitive programs and you're like, everyone's done geosensors for five years and they're all like the under or four years. Sorry.
Akshay: They know what they're doing and you want to be like them. Especially by the time I got to my postdoc and then when I was applying for jobs and I was doing interviews, I just, that was front and center. It was like, this is where I come from. And, and I can make a very clear link if you're interested in making that link, but I don't find any reason to hide that fact.
Akshay: Like, and if anything, I'm going to celebrate it because there are so many things that, [00:25:00] that because of my training, I think we, I see uniquely. And so, yeah, I'm a huge proponent. My biggest concern is actually how do we integrate more rigorous, like science. Into architecture. It's not about let's separate these two things.
Akshay: And now I'm a scientist. And so that's what we're going to do. It's I think there are a lot of architects who have these like curiosities and creativities and are thinking about things like geology or landscape or whatever. And how do we make some of those investigations a bit more rigorous as such that they rise to this level where We are talking about things which are more than just a superficial level of understanding or more than just a, a formal level of understanding, but let's actually get into some of the science.
Akshay: Let's get into some of the questions about this. And we think about this from like, uh, you people are probably familiar with biomimicry, like design, thinking about the adding like geology and stuff into one's design, thinking about landscape evolution and. The part that I'm interested in is how do we make that more rigorous?
Akshay: So how do we start up a more communication, like a bi directional communication here? Because [00:26:00] I think scientists can benefit from these sort of ideas and I think architects can benefit from these sort of ideas and these exchanges as well.
Silvia: Yeah, absolutely. And I love how you said you wanted to bring some authority to like what you were talking about by pursuing a further degree in this because as an architect, you didn't have as much of a platform to stand on to talk about this.
Silvia: So that's great because I like a previous guest is a farmer and that's like part of food systems and food systems take space. And like she went deep into that. That's just amazing. I think because as architects, you can only, if you're only working on a project, you can only invest so much time into that and it doesn't, then it doesn't go anywhere and sometimes it gets stuck with a project and then it's like dependent on clients, right?
Akshay: Yeah, absolutely. And then I think when we talk about. Research and architecture to like, I think a lot of architects do deep dives into their sort of areas of passion. And the question is, how do we maybe make those [00:27:00] formalize those deep dives a bit more? And how do we make them maybe something that there's a product that comes out of it as well?
Akshay: And And more so than I just did a superficial thing. I actually really just like the aesthetics of this thing, but there's a lot more under underneath it. And reaching that part is a really interesting thing for me. It's like, how do we actually get down into the beyond the aesthetics? Like, how do we talk about the underlying thing that you're interested in and what sort of contribution can you make?
Akshay: And where do we make these like connections with others who are thinking about these problems as well?
Silvia: Yeah. You mentioned this earlier in the conversation about, I think the projects you were working on at SITU about what rocks would stand up to, was it like bullets or something like that?
Akshay: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Akshay: So what we were thinking there was one of the problems we were looking at was the use of white phosphorus in, in Gaza. And the idea there was, okay, if you take a munition and it explodes, and then you have all these particles raining out, what is the chance that they interact with a wall or a floor or the ground?
Akshay: Okay. [00:28:00] Of a civilian building, for example, and like, what is the chance that they might go through a window? And so this is just spatial modeling, right? And actually all that code we did was in grasshopper. So we modeled like everything about the sort of munition right in grasshopper and then ran these simulations.
Akshay: And yeah, those are the kinds of questions where yes, the first order thing is. Let's build up the urban environment from photographs and from satellite imagery and from what we understand. And then let's go into this part that we don't know much about yet, but let's actually drill in and read the papers and look into the munitions and then talk to some scientists who are thinking about these questions as well and ask if we're doing this modeling correctly.
Akshay: So I think. A lot of the stuff that CT does is like a lot of feedback with scientists, right? And CT research specifically, it's a lot of these projects are informed by talking to people who are working on these problems as well. And one thing I think from like expanding architecture is like research thing.
Akshay: That's something I would urge for people who are in architecture, who are interested in thinking about ideas that are outside of their realm of expertise, which is. Reach out to those people who are working on those problems, right? [00:29:00] So if you are interested in things like biological effects of whatever, go reach out to a biologist who's working on those problems and say, Hey, is this something that you're interested in?
Akshay: And you might find a lot of times that people are actually interested. I think a lot of scientists are looking for outreach or looking for doing things that are more than just their small sphere of focus. It's good for us because it gives you a broader. World to engage with and so I do think for architects are interested in those questions like reaching out is actually a totally viable thing to do.
Akshay: Do you have
Silvia: any tips or how to get that process going? Because there's so many things I'm sure architects are interested in and what's a good first step to just, I don't know, ask around, but like, I'm sure you get a lot of dead ends to like
Akshay: process. Yeah. So I would, it's the same way that I get students ready to apply for grad school.
Akshay: You have to just write emails to people effectively. And the thing is, you have to understand, like you're saying that there is probably you're probably at 25% people never responding. That's fine. [00:30:00] You're going to get. And I can tell you from experience starting in January, my email load has gone insanely high.
Akshay: Like it's just at this point, it's unmanageable. And so I'm constantly dropping balls. And so like following up with me is usually a very good thing, right? Because I may have seen your email. I might be very interested, but then I have just, there's six things I have to do today that I cannot do. Otherwise I'm like starting up a lab, a lot of.
Akshay: Scientists are managers as well. They're basically running their own little firms within these organizations. And so just imagine they only have so much time and they don't have access to office administrator or anyone else. So no one's organizing anything for them. They're doing everything themselves.
Akshay: So first thing is send out emails. But two, I think even before you send out emails, what I have my undergrads do is actually. Build out an idea of what they're interested in. So for example, if you are someone who is actively working on a problem set, say you're interested in geology, for example, and you're interested in something about the textures of specific rocks, and you're really thinking about that from a holistic standpoint, the first thing to do is just highlight what are you actually interested in.
Akshay: And then two is just [00:31:00] scour those like university websites and say, who in geology is maybe thinking about these same things, and then just make a list and say, And then just come up with a list of questions that you might ask, or you might say, Oh, I'm interested in pursuing this problem. This is someone who seems like they're very engaged in the same problem.
Akshay: Maybe I'm going to just send out an email and ask, and I actually do the inverse. Right. I actually reach out to people who are like teaching and design studios who are like, Oh, we're working on critical landscapes or whatever. Critical territories or whatever. And I'm like, and I'll reach out and I'll say I work on things that might be applicable.
Akshay: Maybe there's a way that we can have a collaboration and it's the same exact thing. I get maybe 50% of people returning stuff, but those are 50% of people that we can start a conversation. Maybe it goes nowhere. Maybe it actually turns into its own thing. So that's what I recommend for anyone who's working on this sort of stuff.
Akshay: And especially students in architecture school, you're working on your thesis. Thank you. If you're interested in something like thinking about mining, or you're thinking about resource management, or you're thinking about biology, whatever it might be, like reach out to those biologists, reach out to like the [00:32:00] geologists, reach out to the earth scientists, reach out to the computer scientists who, if you're interested in like thinking about reconstructions from a CS perspective, reach out to those people, you'd be surprised how many times they're like, Oh yeah, that's super cool.
Akshay: I'll give you two hours of my time to like work through this and give you advice.
Silvia: And then you just keep chasing the opportunities or the people that like energy and passion matches yours, right?
Akshay: Yeah. Yeah. I think for all of us, it's you're doing interesting things. You find people doing interesting things, go reach out to them, talk to them.
Akshay: At the very least you have a conversation. In the best case scenario, you start something up. That's actually very fruitful in the worst case scenario. You just find out that actually this person is doing something that I want to do, but they're not really interested in engaging. And so I have to come at this a different way.
Akshay: Happens as well. I think the one thing that science has really opened up for me is this notion that many people are open to communication in a way that I didn't realize before. And I think part of it's like, when you have especially fields that are very hierarchical, like architecture and the principle you probably never really engaging with, especially these large firms, [00:33:00] it becomes harder to imagine that.
Akshay: But in, in many other fields, We're talking about labs that are only 10 deep, right? So the principal, the PI, whatever you want to call it is actually very accessible. And so I think I started to come to that. And then what I do in the cases of if I'm engaging with people in architecture is look for the people who are doing the smaller stuff.
Akshay: We're doing like the interesting things and maybe they're not at a large firm. So I don't have to worry about getting in touch with someone who's at a multinational firm, who's like the PI there or the principal, but young people as well. People are doing interesting things and it's like, that's cool. I want to work with you.
Akshay: So let's try it out.
Silvia: Are you reaching out on LinkedIn or just like finding that doing a little stalking and finding their email or whatever platform you find them on? You just reach out on. Oh,
Akshay: whatever platform, for example, like our architecture, I did that straight through Instagram, right? Let's see. Uh, I reconnected with people from undergrad again, who I'd known who they were much, they were a few years behind me.
Akshay: And it's just because I saw something that they had posted. And so I just reached out again. I've done LinkedIn the other way is especially for academics. I just find their email on their [00:34:00] websites and I just email them directly. That's. The best way to do it. Honestly, people send me LinkedIn messages. I don't see because they are like the academic sphere.
Akshay: You just never open up LinkedIn. I maintain it, but I don't actively.
Silvia: Good to hear. And also I love how like you're emphasizing communication because when you mentioned that principles are harder to reach sometimes and even like small architecture firms, everyone's so busy. Yeah. But I feel like.
Silvia: Everyone's also not super chatty and sharing, I feel like. So we've been raised up in this environment where everything's kept really like close to your chest and not shared. So I think that's another reason why out of architecture where it's like the people that like are in this art out of architecture community are so willing to like, just reach out and.
Silvia: Share resources and like experiences and just chat with people because like, who knows what these conversations will result into, but I feel very comfortable reaching out to people that I've met along the way and just, Hey, do you want this [00:35:00] opportunity or, Hey, are you looking for an opportunity?
Akshay: Yeah, absolutely.
Akshay: I think across the board, I found, especially. Especially people who aren't in these hierarchical systems or people who from my undergrad who left architecture are always open to these kind of conversations and a lot of firms are open to write experimental firms, like people who are smaller firms are open.
Akshay: And I think that openness is so critical because ultimately, unless you have this like kismet and you like run into someone who might reveal this other world to you, a lot of things just stay closed because you don't see them and yet. I think the really interesting thing is everyone's willing to put stuff on their Instagram and share or in their social media or whatever.
Akshay: So there is also this desire to share what people are doing. So I think there's a tension there, right? Where maybe when you start sending emails, people turn out to be less open than if. Like they are on their sort of social media. And so I gravitate to the P towards the people who are open in both spheres, right?
Akshay: They're sharing the work they're doing in whatever medium they [00:36:00] want to. But then as you reach out to them, they're, yes, let's engage. Let's do this. And people who don't do that, where they're making these like really nice websites or posts or whatever it might be, but you reach out to them and they're closed off, it's maybe this isn't actually worth engaging in because, you know, what really is nice is when you have a two way exchange and it's.
Akshay: That's really the beneficial part. And yeah, this is part of just also finding the people who are you vibe with and who are like into what you're doing as well.
Silvia: So, actually, it's even better that they don't respond to you because if they're not willing to respond to you or don't give you the time, they're not going to be a, like, probably a good partner to work with.
Silvia: Yeah.
Akshay: And there are many reasons you might not respond, right? There can be so many things going on. And in many ways, these are always two way streets. So, sometimes it just turns out that the other person is Too busy. They're not engaged in that specific question. They have other interests. So it's totally okay if they don't respond.
Akshay: That has no bearing on them. It's just that for you as a person, as you're moving ahead, you have to be like, how long do I stay on this until I move on to something else? Because ultimately we only have [00:37:00] so much time to do these things. And I think that can be done in a very amicable way and in a way that you're still supportive.
Akshay: And I'm telling you from experience, like I get a whole bunch of emails. I dropped the ball on some percentage of them. And ultimately that isn't because like. I dislike the person or I dislike the idea or whatever it might be. It's just literally the month that you reached out to me. I was just not, I did not have the headspace to contribute to one more thing.
Akshay: Right. Yeah,
Silvia: absolutely. The week that I had my birthday, like everyone wants to go out and I feel so bad because literally if someone reached out to me that week, it's just, I didn't even look at my email that, or something just because just a lot of things are in the air and it could be anything for anyone.
Akshay: Yeah, absolutely. No, and that's why none of these things are really personal, right? And I don't think anyone should take these personally. I think when I was an undergrad applying to firms, I did take it personally initially. And I think it's because you've invested all this time and you're like, why wouldn't someone not give me a second look for whatever reason?
Akshay: And I think the longer I've gone on, it's just like, it can't be personal. We all just have way too much stuff going on. [00:38:00] And usually it's just because yeah. Things haven't aligned the right way. And so one thing I would say is it's from my perspective, from people who do have stuff to share, it's important to also be open and flag that.
Akshay: And so one thing that I still have to do is on my group website, which I still have to put together is, am I open to new collaborations or not? Just make that very clear at the top of the website that, yeah, like we're open, send us emails or right now I'm just overwhelmed. Like actually maybe the next six months.
Akshay: I'm not going to be accessible. And one thing that I found people do is they'll write, uh, automatic replies that actually do that, which, you know, they're saying, okay, and I do this when I go on like a month long field work and I don't have access to any communication. It's just. I'm gone for these two weeks or four weeks.
Akshay: If this question is really important, reach out to XYZ. Otherwise, like maybe reach out again with the same inquiry in two months and I will, I'll have the bandwidth to respond. So I think that kind of flagging would be really nice for people to do just to say, yeah, I'm actually available or no right now.
Akshay: Just, this is going to be hard to do. [00:39:00] I
Silvia: want to see this information, like for everybody, right? Can LinkedIn make this a new
Akshay: feature? Yeah, no, absolutely. I think it'd be nice to know. If that's the case and I get this from also the perspective of especially firms like you don't want to miss out on someone who's going to be exceptional and so you always want to stay open, but it becomes hard when you're saying that just send your job applications to this email address and I have no idea if.
Akshay: You know, as a student, does that mean you're actively hiring? Does that mean that I need to know someone at the firm to get this looked at? Does this mean this is just going into an empty mailbox? I never see again. And I think being explicit about these things in architecture, outside of architecture is so important because it's recognizing that everyone's time is important.
Akshay: It's not just that if you are in a position of being able to hire someone or you're in a position of power that like you have more importance than someone who might spend their whole day trying to put an application together, a portfolio together and send it off to a. Empty email box somewhere that's it's demoralizing from that perspective to that happens.
Akshay: I think ultimately, [00:40:00] though, not taking any of those things personally is a really healthy way to just proceed in general. And that allows you to deal with other things like rejections really easily professional rejections. Yeah.
Silvia: And then follow up on the things that you really want to make happen. Like just do what you have to, because I think that's a good filter because if it's not important, you're not going to follow up.
Silvia: But if you really care, you'll follow up and then people will recognize
Akshay: that. Yeah, absolutely. I was reading somewhere about this, which is the follow up is critical as well, right? People, I think we get in our heads a lot about what should we do? What should we not do? And one thing that I've gotten very good at, and that's through like conversations with my wife, through other people that I'm close to is understanding when I'm like, when it's still an acceptable thing to do.
Akshay: Do I send this follow up email? Am I being too, am I bothering someone? And so let's look at the email together. And probably not. This is a case. Oh, and then sometimes what I do now is I put myself in the shoes. If someone were to send an email to me two weeks later to follow up, would I be annoyed or would I just be like, Oh yeah, I forgot about that thing.
Akshay: And so I think having that network around you [00:41:00] to give you that feedback. And then like you're saying, still, you have to go for these things. And it'd be like, look, I really want to go do this thing. I reached out to this person. They didn't really say anything. They didn't actually get back to me. Do you think it's a good idea if I do it again?
Akshay: And usually your network's good to like your close friends, your significant others, et cetera, can be like, yeah, go do it again. And, and worst case, put yourself in that shoes in someone's shoes and be like, would I be annoyed if I got this like second email two weeks later? Probably not like worst case, I'm going to send it off.
Akshay: So put it in my followup email box. So I think that's helpful as a feedback to keep yourself motivated.
Silvia: Yeah, absolutely. And what are you looking forward to in the future? As like a bit of a wrap up question, you mentioned a lab. Are you building out a lab like space planning or like filling seats? Like I'm very curious how your architectural skills comes into play.
Akshay: Yeah. So I am building out a lab. I'm going to be building one of these CNC machines to grind through samples. That's a long term thing. I'm actively recruiting grad students. So I have students who I'm looking to hire. I'm going [00:42:00] to. Northwest territories in August to do a whole bunch of work on these microbial constructions from 2 billion years ago.
Akshay: So I'm looking forward to that. I'm going to South Africa in September for a month to do more field work. So I've got a lot of field work lined up, which is always fun. One thing that I'm a research career professional perspective, what I really am looking forward to do is like actually drilling more into this connection between architecture and geosciences in a formal way.
Akshay: And so I wrote a piece for the journal of architecture, like Two issues ago, thinking about the time scales of geology and how we incorporate that into the built environment. And then I have collaborations with people who are landscape architects who are thinking about these questions. And so that's like a space I really want to get into more.
Akshay: And so that's going to be something I'm going to try to focus on. And then, Thank you. Finally, the great part of being at UW, the reason I decided to come here is there's really a focus on professors doing sort of social good, human rights work as well, and making that part of our promotional stuff as well.
Akshay: So me going from assistant professor to associate professor and getting tenure, that sort of work will be [00:43:00] valued. And so I'm already working with people here on those sort of questions like, Oh, how do we think about water scarcity? And what do we do with thinking about remote sensing and describing water scarcity?
Akshay: And so. Yeah, I've got these like different avenues of research, but I think one project in each is probably the stuff that I'm most looking forward to.
Silvia: That is so exciting. When you were back in like early architecture days, what would your old self think thinking about like where you are
Akshay: today? Yeah, I don't know.
Akshay: When I started, I was like, I am going to go work at one of these big firms and I'm going to be like a, I'm going to be an architect and one day I'll have my own firm. And I was totally. About that for a very long time, and I think my 5th year self, so my like pre thesis self, like in that semester when you're like putting your thesis project together, I think that person would be like, yes, this is actually exactly right.
Akshay: And I'm very glad that you ended up in this path.
Akshay: So my, my, my. Architecture, the arc thesis was on a remediating the site of the Bhopal chemical leak. And [00:44:00] so this is, this happened in the 80s and it was essentially a union carbide plant that exploded and then basically poisoned a whole bunch of people killed a whole bunch of people in that plant site remains in India untouched.
Akshay: And it still, it still has. chemicals on it, it's basically contaminated. And so the project I worked on for my thesis was really thinking about how do we remediate it? What are the appropriate responses to a disaster like this? What are the appropriate architectural or spatial responses? Like, how do you reactivate the site?
Akshay: And I got super into soil remediation and reading papers on that. So I think that person would be like, yes, actually, that was the, the rest of the project was an abject failure. But that first part of doing this sort of research was a part that I really engaged with and my advisors. Kept telling me things that I don't understand.
Akshay: I just want to focus on the sort of the remediation part and how I think about the processes that go on. And so anyways, it was an abject failure. It was a terrible thesis, but I think that person would be like, yeah, clearly this is where you were going anyways, in the longterm.
Silvia: I love that. Your thesis project came in a full circle, [00:45:00] because when you started telling me about it, I was like, Oh, this is so lovely.
Silvia: And you're like, it was a horrible thesis. Yeah, that sounds familiar. But in the grand scheme of your life and your career, it was perfect.
Akshay: Yeah, it was perfect. Yeah. And that's the thing you just don't know. And there were some people who were except that had exceptional theses. And they're like, Running their own firms now and I understand why like they like that is what resonates with them and they're exceptionally good at what they do and I just wasn't good at that and by the time you're in your fifth year, you don't have a chance to like reevaluate like it's way too late, you're about to you've got one semester to go, you have to get a job and then you have to graduate, you have to walk so you don't actually have time to be like, wait, is this what I'm good at?
Akshay: And by that point, it's way too late. And so then it takes your post college career to be like, Oh, is this actually what I'm good at? Okay. And, and I benefited, one last thing I will say is I benefited a lot from mentors along the way, like at Situ, I had an exceptional mentor who basically recognized that about me and directed me in the right directions.
Akshay: I had an exceptional [00:46:00] postdoc mentor, I had an exceptional graduate mentor. So like at every step of the way, I had people who were able to see what I actually am good at and see what I'm not good at and guide me into improving the things I'm not good at, but also be like, actually, maybe you want to go in that direction because the direction you're going in isn't really going to gel with your sort of.
Akshay: That's one thing I feel very strongly about is finding mentors is so critical and all of us. have to do that. Like it's really important. They're the ones who have the big picture vision because you're in your moment. And I think that's really beneficial. Yeah.
Silvia: I love the Princeton professor that said, Oh, you don't need to know.
Akshay: Yeah. He was crucial. Yeah, no, he was absolutely crucial. And he was a great grad advisor. I had, like I said, I had exceptional mentors across the board and all of them were very good at that kind of thing. I think what I really appreciate about all of them, especially my friends at Princeton and Dartmouth.
Akshay: Advisors was because I did my postdoc at Dartmouth. What I appreciate about them was that they just never took into account what my background was. They were like, yeah, you are capable of doing this. And so [00:47:00] you're, we're just going to treat you like anyone else. And I think, especially in my first and second year of grad school, that was fundamental.
Akshay: Like I would have left had that not been the case. And, and so that's where, and same with my mentor at Situ, there are people who basically are like, yeah, this is what you should do. And then like checking in and being like, are you doing the right thing? And giving you the validation of, yeah, this is actually great.
Akshay: And I think, I think those are so important. To someone's progression. And it's something maybe in architecture school, we don't talk about a lot, which is how do you find those mentors? Like, how do you actually, and how do you know that they're the kind of right person for you? And then, you know, what happens in the future?
Akshay: Like, how do you become a good mentor? Right. That's that last step. And that's where luckily as. An academic as a professor, like, I get that opportunity multiple times. I get students who come in. I get to be a mentor, but I think for people who are outside of that, how do you as someone who maybe have left architecture?
Akshay: How are you going to be a good mentor? Like, how are you going to connect with those people? And that's where spaces like out of architecture is so important because. Without it doesn't really work, right? Like [00:48:00] without a sort of community, all of these things fall apart. Absolutely.
Silvia: Each line you say, I know I can, like, just press stop and end it, but like, I keep wanting to add more.
Silvia: But so the last thing I will add is that I love encouraging my friends because I do feel like it's so important because I don't think your. If you're still in architecture, your environment probably isn't super nurturing or more often than not, it's not like, I'm so happy if it is, but like, I make sure that I remind my friends, like how capable and like smart and amazing they are because of what they're able to do, like, they're great people, but they are also so talented and skilled and like, I will always 100% keep pushing them because I know like they are amazing and I don't think people Feel that way all the time.
Akshay: Absolutely. And I don't feel that way all the time. None of us do. And so it's so important to have a support structure in place. I think you're absolutely right. And I think it's friends. We can do a lot. I think as colleagues, you can do a lot. And I think [00:49:00] as people who are in positions of power. Those people are really can do a lot as well.
Akshay: And I think that's something I would definitely emphasize, which is if you're someone who's left, who has like now a successful career outside, like, like reaching back and saying, are there other people who might want to do the same thing? I can be a beacon. It's like actually very helpful. And, and it's something that I think a lot of successful people have, like a lot of successful people can point to.
Akshay: These are the sort of like moments where I got. Like I moved my life, jumped ahead. And these are the people that kind of enabled it. And those are really important things. So, yeah. But I think you're absolutely right. We also have to just support each other as well. That's so critical.
Silvia: Thank you so much for this lovely conversation.
Silvia: This was like the perfect Friday, like midday
Akshay: conversation. Yeah. Thank you so much. This has been great. Really enjoyed it. Me too.