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Merriam-Webster’s dictionary defines “side by side” as the state “of existing beside one another” and “of being in the same place, time, or circumstance." What does it mean for rural and urban communities to live side by side? Join University of Minnesota Extension staff as we explore the interdependent relationship of rural and urban spaces and why this necessary and complex relationship matters.
It's connecting our rural community with all those people coming from the suburban and urban areas. I don't think it's anybody's fault that general public has become really disconnected on how food is grown, where it's coming from. We get several of these questions all the time. People don't realize that corn is an annual plant. And so they ask, how do you change the maze design when the corn comes back next year?
Zeke Berg:So that's a point of education. It's an annual plant. We cut it down and plant new. And so we're having these opportunities to help educate and help people understand the life cycle of the farm and the stuff that we're growing here.
Freya Thurmer:Ultimately, what everyone is learning is a greater understanding for the work and the effort goes into the production of food and fiber on farmland, building agricultural literacy, that general awareness of how our food's made, where it comes from, and not just our food, but the important role of clean water and clean air and taking care of our soil because that is intimately connected to our food and our food production. The more we can help grow awareness and respect for that process, I think it just helps us all value what we have more and want to protect it.
Ellen Wolter:That's Zeke Berg owner of Fresh Acres, a Central Minnesota farm that operates agritourism experiences, including a fall festival with a corn maze and pumpkin patch. And Freya Thurmer, an extension educator whose work focuses on agritourism. They're describing the role that agritourism plays in connecting people to where and how their food is grown. Agritourism experiences are popping up across the state from the more familiar like apple orchards, strawberry picking fields, and pizza farms to opportunities where you can sleep with chickens and wake up and collect fresh farm eggs. As Freya says, Agritourism is really just limited to what experiences farmers feel they can create.
Ellen Wolter:She explains that it can be so many different kinds of operations with different types of education about agriculture and the importance of protecting farmland, healthy water, and soil, all needed to grow our food. Zeke talks about the value that Fresh Acres provides in educating people about the life cycle of corn, sunflowers, and why it's not just boy goats that have horns. Agritourism is not just about building agricultural literacy, but also about supporting farmers and providing them with an alternate way to make a supplemental income as it becomes harder and harder to keep a family farm viable.
Jim Griswold (music):When they've all had their quarrels and parted, we'll be the same as we started just to travel along singing a song side by side.
Ellen Wolter:Is Ellen Wolter, and welcome to the Side by Side podcast. Freya, what is Agritourism?
Freya Thurmer:Yeah. The basic definition would be the intersection of tourism and agriculture, though that definition doesn't really explain what it is. So agritourism is going to be any activity in which the public is coming on to a working farm and engaging in a tourist activity. So that could be anything from picking their own blueberries and strawberries or apples in an apple orchard. It could be taking a tour of a farm, going to pet baby lambs and feed them with a bottle.
Freya Thurmer:It can be corn mazes, pumpkin patches, goat yoga, pizza on a farm. It could be a farm that is also a wedding venue on occasion, and it could be a restaurant on a farm. It's really limitless anytime the public is gauging their own activity on a real farm.
Ellen Wolter:I think when we spoke a while ago, Freya, you mentioned an entity where you could sleep with chickens.
Freya Thurmer:Another large aspect of agritourism would be farm stays or Airbnbs on farms, and that's everything from pitching a tent or glamping in a nice tent or yurt, sleeping in an old chicken coop when the chickens are right outside. That business is called Airbnb Bach. And then everything to really tie and, you know, overnight stays on a working farm where you can wake up and collect farm fresh eggs or see the cattle grazing on the pasture right below your window. It's really just limited to what the farmers feel like they can create on their space that would be enticing to people to come visit.
Ellen Wolter:Well, Zeke, tell me a little bit about Fresh Acres and how you got into Agritourism.
Zeke Berg:Yeah. So we bought our farm about nine or ten years ago now. And at the time, 21 of the acres of our 28 was tillable, being rented to a local farmer. We were just trying to find ways to utilize the land ourselves and try to make a business out of it. We weren't really sure what that looked like.
Zeke Berg:We knew we didn't want to do traditional rolled crops ourselves because we don't have a combine. We don't have any of the real equipment that it takes to be a farm that is doing field crops. We have smaller tractors. And so as I did more research at the time, it was a corn maze came to came to mind. We liked going to corn mazes with the kids and thought, well, it looks like pretty cheap to get into.
Zeke Berg:We just have to plant a field and have people come over and give us money to come walk through the corn maze. And, it really quickly determined that it's, not as cheap as we thought it was going to be. It's not as easy as just throwing some corn up and having, you know, hundreds of thousands of people show up. It's, there's a lot that goes into it. It's a year long planning event from the day we close to the day we open.
Zeke Berg:It's planning for that next season. So it's been a great learning experience, a lot of fun, and a lot's changed for us in the last eight years.
Ellen Wolter:So, Zeke, you started with the corn maze. And then how have you expanded your business?
Zeke Berg:Each year, we try to add something that is going to be new because everybody who comes back year over year is like, what's the new thing you have this year? We've also really started partnering a lot more with local organizations, a lot of different nonprofits, whether it's dog rescue groups, different agricultural organizations, just so they can get their name out, but also add a little bit of a twist and something unique every different... Every weekend that we're open.
Ellen Wolter:Freya, how long has agritourism been around?
Freya Thurmer:As a defined name of agritourism or agricultural tourism, definitely, that's a term that caught on much more just in the last decade. But, I mean, people have been going to farms to visit them for a variety of reasons, hundreds of years. I'm sure even somebody didn't have apple trees and their neighbor did, and they wanted to bring their children to pick the apples from their neighbor's farm, that would meet our modern definition of agritourism.
Ellen Wolter:One of the things I think about with agritourism, just with my background, is all the dude ranches that were around in Montana back in the day and which some still exist. But Agritourism kind of reminds me a little bit of that with all the East Coast folks who would take the train out to learn how to be on a dude ranch.
Freya Thurmer:And definitely. And that is still by today's definition, agritourism. And those dude ranches exist. And in other countries are still very, very popular where people wanna go out and, you know, see what it's like to move the sheep around the hillside with a sheepdog or, you know, see what it's like to have a couple thousand head of cattle roaming across the outback in Australia. Because that's...
Freya Thurmer:Agritourism is still very popular.
Ellen Wolter:This is also happening in other countries as well?
Freya Thurmer:Yeah. I just attended the Global Agritourism Conference. There were over 500 delegates from 45 different countries. And it was really amazing and inspiring to learn about all the different agritourism that's happening around the globe and the different operations that specific countries or cultures can support or embrace. And also the consistent theme around why many farmers and ranchers and producers go into agritourism.
Freya Thurmer:And a lot of that, despite their different operations and countries and languages, a lot of the core reasons were similar.
Ellen Wolter:What are some of those reasons?
Freya Thurmer:Yeah, a lot of the reasons are supplemental or primary income. Right? I think anyone who's farmed or reads news about farming knows that it's harder and harder to support a family, let alone a multi generational family on a farm. So it can help increase that revenue stream or keep the farm viable. And it's also really common with generational transitions where the older family members are maybe ready to be done with farming and their children have different visions or different lifestyle goals, or again, trying to make a living to support two siblings and their families off that farmland.
Freya Thurmer:And there's also a very common theme of pride in agricultural work and the agrarian lifestyle in our rural communities and being able to showcase that to the public and see people have those moments when they see that a pumpkin isn't just off of a pallet in front of, you know, Hy Vee grocery store, but it's in the ground and it's attached to a vine, or this is what the little baby calf actually looks like. And I pet it and it really just fills people with a sense of inspiration and meaning. I haven't met a farmer who doesn't love seeing that happen for someone else.
Zeke Berg:Yeah. It's, it's so much work, you know, having a farm and even a smaller farm as we have here, but it's so rewarding when we open the doors in beginning of September for the fall festival, having the families come out and seeing everyone having a good time. Everyone's just excited to be here, excited to be away from their desks, away from their day to day life and enjoying the animals, enjoying the pumpkins, you know, just having that freedom. Hold on.
Ellen Wolter:Are both of you seeing Agritourism growing as an industry here in Minnesota?
Zeke Berg:Well, we continue to see competition for other farms, doing similar things. We had a farm right in town here open, and they're doing the exact same thing as we are. So it's great. There's now more opportunities for people and farms to sustain the farm, but also get more people out to the farm to enjoy it. So we're seeing that just in our little microcosm of an area.
Zeke Berg:We're part of NAFTAMA, which is a national Agritourism group and continue to see more and more members there and more and more things happening.
Freya Thurmer:I mean, I think one very clear way to see that is growing is that the university was able to see it growing and the need to support these operations, we can and invested in my role. So I'm the first role within the university to have a specific focus and title on supporting Agritourism operators in the state. And that came out of both people working in agriculture and also in tourism statewide, recognizing this growing avenue that's happening in our state. And like Zeke said, there are more and more operations opening up similar ones, because I am sure when you go to Fresh Acres on a beautiful Saturday morning, it's really crowded. And we love that for you.
Freya Thurmer:And so someone else can have a similar operation, maybe not next door, maybe, but also be as crowded. It is giving more opportunity for more people to have these experiences. And similar to the growth our state and others have seen in outdoor recreation, I feel like agritourism is in many ways an extension of that in that people want to be outside. Right? They want to get away from the city life, maybe get away from the digital world we're all living in and have that fresh air, open space, and like just grounding and authentic experiences.
Freya Thurmer:And I think it kind of shelves itself until it does keep growing.
Zeke Berg:Yeah. Have young families to teenagers coming out to enjoy, to grandparents coming out by themselves, just wanting to check out the activities. And from the family perspective, parents just like the ability to let their kids run and do whatever the kids want to do, whether it's pet the animals or bounce on the bounce houses or play in the corn pit. And the parents don't have to kind of hover over them and be like, hope you be careful here. You know, watch out for traffic there.
Zeke Berg:And then the adults and especially a lot of the grandparents, they see my grandpa's original nineteen fifty formal age, and they are just gravitated toward it, towards it because it's all repainted, all rebuilt. It looks like it just came off the show before. And the stories that they have of either working in the field with their parents or being somehow connected to a farm when they were younger and the memories that brings back is just great for them. And it's fun for us to hear all of those different stories and what's connecting them back to the farm.
Ellen Wolter:And Zeke, forgive me. I don't know. 1950s Farm O H. And I'm probably saying that incorrectly. What what is that?
Ellen Wolter:And what did I say that incorrectly?
Zeke Berg:Mostly incorrectly.
Freya Thurmer:I I beg your pardon.
Zeke Berg:So, Farmall is a, or was a brand of tractor, now is considered international or KSIH. But back in the forties and fifties, it was Farmall. And the model is an H tractor. So it's a Farmall H and it was the first tractor my grandpa purchased brand new back in December 1949. He purchased it, used it his entire farming career.
Zeke Berg:My dad received it. Now my dad doesn't have a place for it. I do. And so I guess possession is nine tenths of the law and out for ownership. We use it we use it to pull our wagon rides, and, it's sitting there, on display in between wagon rides.
Ellen Wolter:Got it. That's pretty special. So what kind of education do you think agritourism provides for people who are less connected to agriculture?
Freya Thurmer:Agritourism can be so many different operations and different things. And in that, the education provided is also going to be vastly different. So it can be as simple as having an appreciation for the farm you visit and just taking that forward with you in life that you have a positive emotional connection and appreciation to a farm, which one could extrapolate into other farms. And it can be much more involved. There's an Agritourism operation just North of Pine City that actually has some Airbnb stays, but they have cattle.
Freya Thurmer:And one of the things they offer actually cattle and sheep is farm tours. And people come on Saturdays and Sundays to spend two hours walking around with the ranchers and learning about what is involved in raising animals and what the process is like from when they're born to when they're ultimately on the way to, you know, your dinner plate. And so in that kit sent, they're taking with them a real holistic understanding of the process of food production. And that could be the same as there's visiting a vegetable farm that's offering tours. It could be visiting a dairy that has big windows open where you can go and see the cows get milked, or you can watch the cheese get made.
Freya Thurmer:So that education is really going to vary on the type of operation and also the learner, right? I think ultimately what everyone is learning is a greater understanding for the work and the effort that goes into the production of food and fiber on farmland, and also the importance of having that farmland. So then hopefully when it comes time to make decisions, maybe at the ballot about how land is protected or isn't, you know, they think of these farms and we wanna protect the farmland that we have in this state.
Zeke Berg:We see kind of some formal and informal education that happens. There's stuff that people just learn through osmosis when they come to the farm that we didn't necessarily intend on teaching. In general, it's, I don't think it's anybody's fault. The general public has become really disconnected on how food is grown, where it's coming from. Like the pumpkin doesn't, isn't grown at high V and you pull it off a pallet.
Zeke Berg:It comes out of the field. We get several of these questions all the time. People don't realize that corn is an annual plant. And so they ask, how do you change the maze design when the corn comes back next year? So that's a point of education.
Zeke Berg:It's an annual plant. We cut it down and plant new. People think that only boy goats have horns. So our petting zoo team helps explain the genetics a little bit of what, why they have horns and a lot of people want to come to the sunflower fields or our flower fields in like early June. And we have to be like, well, Nope, it's going to be September because that's how long it takes a plant to grow to, you know, to get that flower.
Zeke Berg:And so we're having these opportunities to help educate and help people understand the life cycle of the farm and the stuff that we're growing here.
Ellen Wolter:I have to admit, Zeke, I just learned a few things in what you just shared. So I'm also learning on this podcast. Freya, how does Extension support Agritourism?
Freya Thurmer:There's so many different types of Agritourism, right? So an operation like Zeeks or Fresh Acres might need very different resources or support than someone who has a high end Airbnb or runs a kid's summer camp or is an apple or you pick apple orchard, right? So they're all very different. So it's been a process of finding how can we support these operations so that they are sustainable and successful. And how can we work with our partners across the state to do that?
Freya Thurmer:Because we're not the only organization that sees the value in agritourism and wants to see it be successful. We work with folks from Minnesota Department of Health, Minnesota Department of Ag, Minnesota Department of Education, as well as a half dozen other nonprofits and organizations in the state who are supporting these operations, you know, while supporting agriculture and other ways as well. So we all come together and see what our individual strengths are as people or organizations and how we can together offer a variety of useful resources. So within extension, a lot of the support we do is for those who are entering into agritourism, right? There's those different categories of those who want to start agritourism, and then those who have established businesses.
Freya Thurmer:And when solds reach out to us wanting to get into agritourism, maybe as an additional enterprise on their farm, or they've recently acquired farmland or inherited it, how do they start? And so we do a lot of work with these talking through ideas, really encouraging people to have a solid business plan and know what they're doing. Every farmer knows what it's like to start a project and then start planning it. And it works and we are very resourceful people, But if you've had a thought out plan, especially when you're talking about a large financial investment and infrastructure and in your business, it can be more successful or at least more stressful, thus making it more sustainable for the farmer. So a lot of work on that.
Freya Thurmer:And, and then a lot of work on keeping the farm, the business, and the people who come to visit safe. And I see that as a really strong need in an area where extension can support and an area that differentiates from other support that's being offered elsewhere in the state. Because a lot of businesses, have a farmer who is now also a hospitality host, which is a lot to juggle in itself and maybe a part time, parking attendant, letting folks know where to park when they're driving down their field and being hospitable and running a business and running an operational farm and maybe also trying to take care of a family. And that's a lot to juggle, but then you also have the added responsibility of the ten, twenty, or 500 guests who are on your farm at any given moment. And what if somebody breaks a leg, twists an ankle, a kid gets lost, there's a bee sting, there's a tornado, right?
Freya Thurmer:What, what can happen? And so I've been doing a lot of work on trying to get farmers to think through scenarios and have a plan that we hope never gets used, but to really be prepared and think about that. Another area we've done a lot of work in is really just helping connect farmer to farmer. There's so much growth and education and support that happens within one's own peer network. And it's hard when you're spread out over a very large state in a business that doesn't allow for a lot of time off and a lot of travel.
Freya Thurmer:So we've been finding a couple of different avenues to help folks feel connected and have the opportunity to learn from one another. We hosted this Agritourism Exchange, the 100 year old cattle operation that now is a high end wedding venue. And when the multi generational family who runs this operation spoke, they talked about all the mistakes they made and all the unanticipated red tape and regulations and zoning. It was really touching to hear them talk about, you know, they've poured everything into this and they don't regret it, but they wish they had done it a different way. And I think that, you know, we want to be inspired and see these cool operations, but also that very real talk is valuable for folks as they expand their operations.
Zeke Berg:When I first told farmers around me what we were going to do, they just looked at me dumbfounded, why would anybody want to do that? What's, you know, they want to walk through a cornfield? What? What you're going to charge them for it? And so I'm like, yeah.
Zeke Berg:You know, trust me. I... You know, this will be good.
Ellen Wolter:Zeke and Freya, what do you know about who is coming to Agritourism operations?
Zeke Berg:We get people from all over the state and, you know, specifically from the St. Cloud to kind of Minneapolis area. Typically, what we've seen is people roughly about a 40 ish mile radius will come out to our vet.
Freya Thurmer:It's a big mix and it's going to depend a lot on the operation and where it's located. So for example, the dairy where we held our Agritourism event last year in Bruton said that about 95% of their customers are coming from the Metro. So that's a hole, right? People are loading up and driving. What is that two and a half hours to go visit this one place.
Freya Thurmer:They're really seeing people coming and they are doing things to bring the local community in and having a local tonight at their restaurant and bar. Likewise, I had mentioned a farm up in Pine County that has farm stays and does tours of their operation. They're seeing predominantly urban folks who were wanting to come up and walk through the pastures and really see what that lifestyle is like. The Airbnbs and farm stays are going to be really broad based on where they are and what type of accommodations they're offering. Where I see more locals is a lot of the you pick operations.
Freya Thurmer:So you pick flower farms. I know of one in Far Southern Minnesota that I'm going to guess easily 75% or more of their customers are people from within that County. But that's something that you can't get elsewhere. Even if you're in a rural area, you might not have five acres of dahlias to go and cut a bouquet. Likewise, strawberry and blueberry you pick farms are often predominantly full of locals.
Freya Thurmer:The one exception they see is apple orchards. People will travel pretty far for apple orchards, but they often will offer more than just apples. And then there's the pizza farms, which were... I feel like how agritourism really got more known in this state. It was this growth twenty years ago of pizza farms along the Mississippi and down in that, Southeast corner of the state.
Freya Thurmer:And that's gonna be a real variety of folks who want to travel for that unique operation, as well as locals who wanna spend Friday night eating pizza and, you know, looking at the fields.
Ellen Wolter:Zeke, what is the value of Agritourism for your local community? What have you seen in terms of the value add?
Zeke Berg:It's connecting our rural community with all those people coming from the suburban urban areas. And as we're providing those farm experiences that help educate, inspire, and just kind of bring the two different groups together, is, is just awesome. We at Fresh Acres, we're doing that through bringing those customers in from the urban areas, but then also having four H groups and FFA groups here on the farm to talk about their organizations and how just because you live in Downtown Minneapolis or Downtown St. Cloud doesn't mean you can't be part of four H or can't be part of FFA. There are activities that you can do in your backyard that have agricultural significance to them and can provide you that little piece of agriculture right in your own backyard, no matter where you're at.
Zeke Berg:So here and they see, oh, we could do that. Whether it's a garden or flowers or whatever, they're able to bring that home and try to apply that in their own space.
Freya Thurmer:The more people get out, you know, open space is, is good for us. And there is so much research to support the ability to reduce one's stress and increase their enjoyment of life by having time outside. And that can be kicking a walk in the woods. That could be going for a bike ride, but that can also be, you know, visiting farms, walking through an orchard or having your pizza and looking down at the river or seeing your kid run through the corn maze and having a blast. And all of that is really building agricultural literacy, right?
Freya Thurmer:Just that general awareness of how our food's made, where it comes from, and not just our food, but the important role of clean water and clean air and taking care of our soil, because that is intimately connected to our food and our food production. And the more we can help grow awareness and respect for that process on an environmental level and an individual energetic level, what it takes to get there. I think it just helps us all value what we have more and want to protect it and ensure that whether it's a really yummy strawberry or a really great experience that other people can also have that opportunity.
Ellen Wolter:How do you think agritourism will grow and evolve in the coming years?
Zeke Berg:I guess from my end, I I continue to see and hear these unique ideas people creating and coming up with. Agritourism is only limited by the creativity of farmer and the people involved. It's amazing, cool things people come up with. And then somebody else takes that idea and has their own little spin on it and goes a slightly different direction. And that's, what's fun about it.
Zeke Berg:It doesn't have to be a corn maze and a strawberry patch and some flowers. It's so many different things. And it's so awesome that it's helping farmers differentiate their income and find ways to be viable, even when there's an early spring frost or the season's really wet or there's something else that they're gonna be able to fall back on to be able to pay the bills at the end of the year.
Freya Thurmer:One thing that I am starting to see here is farmers trying to find ways to make their agritourism operation a longer season and or a repeat customer experience. So a wedding venue, you would imagine you don't have those same customers a second time. Maybe someone who came loved it and they also used that wedding venue, but how do they integrate these businesses into their community? And so in many ways, leaving the tourism aspect of it and really becoming integrated businesses that are broader than a typical farm. Examples would be the pizza farm that wanted more space.
Freya Thurmer:So they built an indoor space. That's now a small venue and they're trying to advertise and it has been working to host retreats. So holiday parties for small businesses, smaller, more intimate dinners, not a whole wedding event. So becoming a place that the surrounding communities know is available to rent out for needs that they might have. Even a book club in their smaller space.
Freya Thurmer:And I've spoken just this summer with four other farms in Minnesota who are doing very similar things, wanting to build a space that the community knows they can rent out beyond just the community center or in some rural communities, the only large space available for a graduation party might be the senior center. And so this is giving another option with a unique twist in a really great environment. And I saw a lot of that and heard about a lot of that while I was over in Scotland. There's an amazing number of farms across The UK that have this model of we're farming, you know, we're vegetable farmers, or we're raising these animals or both. And we have a small restaurant and we're getting from the local bakery or the local dairy.
Freya Thurmer:It can provide this very farm to table experience. And it's so successful that they decided to have a small market. And here we have a lot of farm stands where you can go and get eggs and some veggies from the farmer's gate. And I saw multiple operations over there where it's a whole cooperative store where a bunch of farmers get together and are all selling their products in that store. And then you have a farm with a store and a restaurant and it becomes a place that people in the community not just go to, but depend on.
Freya Thurmer:And it seems like a very sustainable model. And I could see that growing in popularity over here, especially when farmers are working together to, you know, cooperatively meet the needs that people have in their weekly shopping. But I really think you're going to see more firms working together to find a long term sustainable model that doesn't just attract tourists, but also meet the need in their community.
Ellen Wolter:Well, Zeke, what what do you have coming up that you'd like to share with folks?
Zeke Berg:So our maze design this year is celebrating the two hundred and fiftieth years of Pareteum. And so every year, a design for our maze is something significant going on around us, you know, whether it's significant to our family or significant to the country or to the world. That's how we chose that design and we switch up the game in the maze. So this year will be a game similar to Clue. If anybody's played that board game before, it'll be including prominent people, places, and things throughout US history.
Zeke Berg:So not not a tough test to go through some mazes, but the fun game people really enjoy. We have our corn cannon that we have had probably for the last five years or so. But new this year, we have an apple can. So we'll have targets to sheet at. And, and then on top of all those things, we have our staple activities.
Zeke Berg:So we have our inflatables, the corn pit, sunflowers, and then our pumpkin patch and just all sorts of additional activities for the whole family.
Ellen Wolter:Zeke, what is an apple cannon?
Zeke Berg:It's a basically a turret with a big cannon on it, like a gun, if you will, that you drop an apple into the side of it. And then it pivots left and right, like 15 degrees left and right and five degrees up and down. And you press a button and it shoots that apple under about 125 pounds of air pressure out the end of the cannon at whatever we have out there. We're planning on bringing in that combine and the gravity box and some other things for people to shoot at. I have loved them ever since I shot one probably seven years ago.
Zeke Berg:And it took taking my wife and daughter to another Agritourism farm last fall. They shot it once and they're like, we need to get one of these.
Freya Thurmer:Bet that's the big thing.
Zeke Berg:They're so fun.
Ellen Wolter:Freya, what's coming up in terms of extension and agritourism resources or research or anything you want to share?
Freya Thurmer:Yeah, a couple of things. So as I mentioned, we do this agritourism exchange and that's really just for agritourism operators and other ag professionals. But we do have that coming up at Apple Orchard and Heartsfighter Place. So that'll be really fun and exciting and in a new part of the state. So a lot of work goes into planning that event and trying to create content that's going to be of value to those who attend.
Ellen Wolter:Well, Freya and Zeke, thank you so much for your time and your expertise today. It was a pleasure to learn about Fresh Acres and Agritourism.
Zeke Berg:Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
Freya Thurmer:Yeah. Thanks, Ellen.
Ellen Wolter:Thank you for listening to Side by Side. We welcome your emails at sidebysideumn dot edu. Side by Side is a production of the University of Minnesota Extension and is written and hosted by me, Ellen Wolter. Special thanks to Jan Jekula, who designed our wonderful logo, and Jim Griswold, who sings and plays guitar in our opening and closing credits.
Jim Griswold (music):Really doesn't matter at all.
Ellen Wolter:You can find episodes of Side by Side wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Ellen Wolter, and this is side by side.
Jim Griswold (music):Singing a song side by side.