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Small group leaders, pastors, and more discussing strategies for growth and community in church groups. The Small Group Network is an international ministry that equips churches to engage in deeper discipleship and community.
Hello, and welcome to F G squared.
Steve Gladen the global pastor of small
groups from Saddleback church polls
from his over 25 years of experience.
To encourage and equip listeners like
you to lead small group ministry.
So let's listen and learn together.
Derek Olson: Welcome to SSG Squared.
Steve Gladden on small groups.
Derek here, your host with the main
man, the man whose very initials
stand for small groups, the man who
is a fine connoisseur of cheeses.
Steve Gladden.
Steve, how are you my friend?
Steve Gladen: I am doing well.
My friend just, uh, celebrated my birthday
and, uh, our team gave me a charcuterie
board that was . Uh, fit for, uh, the,
the, the king, the, the land, the table
that the Lord is gonna set in heaven.
I tell you, it was just incredible.
You can go on my, uh, Instagram or
on Facebook and take a peek at it,
but it was, uh, it's been a great
time and feel a little bit older and
that, so, and then you, my friend,
I mean, I'm just celebrating a
birthday, but where were you again?
Derek Olson: You know, I just got
back from the great land of Peru.
Steve Gladen: Picchu, which I probably
said very white and terrible and all that,
Track 1: And speaking of, uh, of
Delectable delicacies, so you're
eating your, your cheese platter.
I ate something in Peru, um, that I
think our special guest, um, might
know a little something about.
Will Johnston, who's gonna talk
about, we're gonna introduce
in a little bit, but, uh, I ate
something in Peru called Cooey.
Any idea what that is?
Steve
Steve Gladen: Is Kui and gui.
Uh uh, you,
Track 1: Will
Steve Gladen: me brother.
Track 1: will any ideas?
William Johnston: Yeah, I mean, I've
been to, I've been to Peru myself, and
so, if I'm not mistaken, I think that's
a little bit of some Guinea pig there.
Track 1: That's right.
Guinea pig.
Did you like it?
William Johnston: You know, I never
had it 'cause I heard everything
just kind of blends together, but
maybe it'd be better in an air fryer.
You know, I, I just don't really know.
Track 1: You know
Steve Gladen: gonna ask our audience
not to, uh, take, uh, will up on, on the
offer of putting your little Guinea pig
from your children into the air fryer
and, you know, experiment because, uh.
That's not what the show, that's
not what this show is all about.
You know, we're, we're all about helping
people do something that's good for
the kingdom, not something that's gonna
destroy the family when, when you do that.
See Will a little brother could be
listening to this going, I think I'll take
my sister's Guinea pig and check it out,
but, but Derek, did you actually have it
Track 1: I actually did.
Now, one, one thing you need to
know about Guinea pig in Peru.
Steve Gladen: I don't need
to know much about it, but.
Track 1: These babies are fat and juicy.
Like it's not.
It's not like a little tiny Guinea
pig that we get at our pet store.
These things are huge, and
the surprising thing is.
don't taste all that bad.
The bad part is they basically roast
these suckers whole, and it's hard
to eat when it's looking at you.
Steve Gladen: Oh man.
Now, now you're mentioning this, I
think I remember my daughter when she
was doing study abroad down in Chile.
Just, uh, you know, uh,
enjoying a little bit of that.
'cause I remember the picture when
she said, looking, so looking at you,
I'll, I'll stick with the, um, uh,
the, the cheese and fine fruits, uh,
board that I got, and you can stick
to ooey gooey and have fun with that.
Track 1: Sounds good.
Steve Gladen: Hey, let me, let me jump in.
As Derek alluded to, we got a
great show for you, uh, called
Leading Up and Leading Out.
I think it's one of the most, uh,
prevalent topics because all of us, uh,
are, are leading and generally most of
the people who are listening to this we
are, are leading from the second chair.
There's all kinds of books out there
called . You know, leading from the second
chair leading when you're not in charge.
Uh, but Will Johnston, who, uh,
he's gonna help us get to know him
just a little bit better as one
of our pastors here at Saddleback.
Uh, he was at a retreat with
our connections pastors or
our small group pastors.
And, uh, will gave a
talk, uh, similar to this.
He's kind of expanded it a little
bit, but will welcome to the show.
Give us a little bit.
. Of your bio and why you are more than just
the handsome face that's on the screen.
William Johnston: I don't know if I'm
more, I think I am just the face, you
know, and maybe like average at best,
but I appreciate, I appreciate that.
Steve Gladen: Well, Hannah thinks
something a little different,
which, uh, the, how long you been
married and all those details.
William Johnston: Yeah, my amazing wife,
Hannah, we've been married for two and
a half years now, two and a half years,
Steve Gladen: loves you.
William Johnston: Steve gotta
see all of my good dance moves on
the, on the dance floor that day.
Um, but yeah, I've been at Saddleback,
I've been a pastor here for seven years
now, and it's been just a, a gift in a few
different roles, students, small groups.
Um, and now I have the privilege
leading one of our campuses here.
And so get, do a little bit of that.
Um.
Little about me.
I love baseball and I love fried
chicken, and those two are pretty,
pretty high up there on my scale.
Um, yeah, I think that's, I think that
covers all you really need to know.
Steve Gladen: No, no.
Fred Guinea Pig.
William Johnston: You know, I haven't
tried it, but I can, I can add it in.
You know, you throw a little KFC 11 herbs
and spices on there and it might work.
Track 1: Come on.
Steve Gladen: I've traveled with Will
enough to know that when he is saying
fried chicken, I, I think the, a couple
of the, uh, words that are missing
from that description is hot chicken
William Johnston: Oh,
Steve Gladen: and, and he
is a hot chicken brother.
So, uh, any of my, my fa my friends
in Nashville, uh, bring him out.
But what Will, is not talking to
you or hasn't shared with you.
So Will started out in our student
ministry was our small group pastor
who's now leading one of our campuses.
Uh, don't feel too bad for him 'cause
he is over in, uh, on the coastline
leading one of our campuses, which,
uh, is quite sick and all that.
But, uh, one of the things I've loved
about Will is that he has intuitively.
Done a number of things in his leadership
development that I've seen throughout
the years from when he, when he was
doing student ministries to when
he was doing small group ministry,
and now when he is a campus pastor.
And I, I kind of wanna
unpack some of these things.
'cause what he did naturally are,
you know, things that all of us
have to do because, you know, we
are, we are leading, I'm in a, in
transition at Saddleback Church.
We have a new lead pastor.
And, and there's a lot of places where
I've got a lead from a, a completely
different chair than when I was with Rick.
And so, uh, these, all these muscles.
But Will, could you kind of unpack
a, a little bit, kind of, uh, set
the table for the, this conversation
and we'll kind of dive into some
questions, uh, that we've got written
down that we wanna drill you with, and
then you can kind of go from there.
William Johnston: Yeah.
Yeah.
Thanks Steve.
Yeah.
I think this is such a prevalent
conversation because churches
is so much about people.
I.
It's a people job.
And when we talk specifically small
groups, like you said, we're usually
second, third, fourth chair, and
we, we don't know necessarily how
do we function within the staff
dynamics, the workplace culture.
And I think this conversation, it's come
up so much when I, you know, originally
gave this talk, it, it came up out of need
of this people asking questions, people
coming to me and saying, Hey, I love this.
I love that.
How do we get there?
But what's so interesting is we
typically, you know, whatever culture
we're in, we begin to unconsciously
take in some cues from that culture.
And at least here, you know, within the
United States we have . We have some
maybe unspoken, unseen cultures that
we've taken cues from within the church
and just kind of adopted in with us.
And so I think that's really where
it begins to kind of set the table.
And so there are many things, probably
things popping off in your mind right
now, but I, I've worked at three
different churches and these are.
These are things that I've just seen
and when it being in conversations like,
okay, these, these are maybe three of
the most prevalent ones that kinda help
set the table of what, what really is
underlying some of these challenges
and some of these cultural reflections.
And so, uh, the first one is really, I.
We kind of take on this
escapism work culture.
So this is kinda this
working for the weekend.
You know, my life really starts
when I'm outside of work.
So what I'm doing here is
kind of a second tier living.
It's not really main to who I am.
Uh, the second that's prevalent
is individualistic results.
And so my personal results are
the utmost sign of success.
So whatever my ministry is doing,
whatever I'm doing, if it's
doing . Good, then I'm good.
I don't need to check any other boxes.
And that third one is passive
responsibility, which is so prevalent.
I mean, if you listen to any leadership
podcast, so prevalent within the
secular work culture right now, and it's
this thought of, I'm just gonna take
care of what I need to take care of.
So this is my job description.
This is it.
Um, . Everything outside
of that is just not us.
And so kind of the buck
never stops with me.
Uh, we say things like, ah, well
they don't pay me enough for that.
Or That's not, that's
not really what I do.
That's not my niche of the world.
And so we kind of have these three,
these three cultural narratives
that have unconsciously slipped
into our church work cultures.
And many times, I mean, go for it.
Steve Gladen: no, I was just gonna say,
I love what you're talking about there
is, uh, when you're talking about the
passive, just, just a little clarification
point, is that, would that be not
looking at the whole church piece of it?
Or is that, uh, are you going a different
little bit of a different route?
William Johnston: I think it's both.
I think it's not understanding the full
church, and I'll explain it in a little
bit here of, uh, I think a poor theology
of the Body of Christ, but I think
it's also really just saying, Hey, I'm
just gonna, it, it almost bleeds out of
that second piece, which I was talking
about, the individualistic results,
Steve Gladen: Hmm.
William Johnston: that we, we just
want to do our thing, check our
box, get out, and so it doesn't then
We don't really celebrate sometimes
the wins of other people in ministry.
We don't celebrate the kids'
ministry wins as our wins.
We don't celebrate, you know, when we
have a huge event and that goes on.
If we have an experienced pastor,
someone who, who's put so much
time into that, we don't take those
wins as our owns and celebrate.
It's all very, uh, siloed when it
comes to some ways, some of the ways
we think and value those specific
ministries in our own ministry as well.
Steve Gladen: Okay, great.
William Johnston: Yeah.
So to, to think.
Then, okay, if these are three
prevalent ideologies that we've
really unconsciously subscribed to,
we can really see biblically like,
these don't really match up with us.
These aren't biblical values that
we, we should be leaning into.
I mean, just quickly we can think
through, okay, that first one of.
Escapism.
I mean, God wants our life to fully
reflect him and flow together.
So I mean, this even goes back to
kind of youth ministry conversations.
What we push students on of that.
Yeah, every piece of your life
should be reflective of Jesus.
It should all be one thing.
It's not all these facets that
are separate, but everything
should be flowing together.
Steve Gladen: Mm-Hmm.
William Johnston: then we think of
individualistic results as . We know
in the church we don't measure success.
Maybe sometimes.
Well, it can be hard to really
measure success in the spiritual side
of things, but we know that as the
body of Christ, it's, that's what
we should be pursuing is the body
of, of Christ flourishing together.
People meeting Jesus, spiritual
maturity, serving others.
And if my niche ministry or idea,
uh, kind of takes the cake on it.
Then we've kind of missed it.
We've kind of missed
what our main goal is.
And then lastly, going further into
that in the body of Christ is we know
we have responsibility to each other.
So to so to see is,
oh, I'm just on my own.
I don't really need to have
responsibility for others.
I mean, we can go back and into Genesis
and see, oh, it almost sounds like
we're not our brother's keeper in that.
And those things just all kind
of work together and say, well,
this isn't really who we are.
Jesus, this isn't really who we
are called to be as the church.
And while the church in some ways, you
know, we, we have it as a workplace,
we still need to bleed out as the
culture of the church and the culture
of the kingdom and not the opposite.
So, and you might be thinking,
okay, how I, I see that, I don't
know how that plays out and.
I think there's some pretty quick symptoms
because I think when these things come
in, we see staff culture challenges
and staff culture just decaying within
our churches and they look similar to
when we go into our secular workplaces.
And so some of those things that I think,
uh, we see are, you know, we don't realize
that, okay, we're dealing with people.
Church stuff is all about people.
Steve Gladen: For sure.
William Johnston: And we're small
groups people, we don't necessarily
think of our staff as a small group.
And in many ways, it's maybe our
most important small group that
we end up spending time with.
You know, we might be spending
20, 30, 40 hours a week.
With these people.
And so this is our most prevalent
small group, but it's nothing
new that to think about.
Okay, there is decaying culture.
I mean, we even think about, we can look
in scripture and not look too far to see,
I mean, Paul and Barnabas even reached
a point, where're like, yeah, I'm good.
I I don't think we really
need to hang out anymore.
I think we're, I think
we can work separately.
Yeah.
Um, and so we, we have
these decaying cultures.
We can say we see the symptoms of
it, but then we think, okay, we.
We all would probably also agree.
We want to enjoy our workplace.
We want to enjoy the people we work with.
But that necessarily is
those two things We can say.
They're both real.
We see the symptoms, we see this is it.
And we also see this is maybe
something, okay, we, we all wanna
enjoy working here, but we might not.
And so we kind of run into a little bit of
a collision when those two come together.
Steve Gladen: Mm-Hmm.
. Have you, do you think, will this is the
same pre covid as post covid, or do you
think there's a little bit more erosion?
Happening in, in, in the cultures because
especially as people are working remotely,
uh, in, in the workplace, there's, and
even in the church, there's a lot more
working remotely and there there can be
that natural decay that can actually,
what you're talking about really hurt us
when we're trying to, you know, lead up
and, and even lead out with our staff.
William Johnston: Yeah, that, that's
a really fantastic question, and I
can only speak about it anecdotally.
You know, I actually have these
conversations with pastors
a lot from other churches,
different denominations, and I.
I think the symptoms were still
the same pre pandemic kind of with
most, most things we're dealing
with, with most challenges.
But I do think yet the more time we spend
apart from each other, I think typically
the less grace we offer each other.
I.
We make assumptions when we don't
see the behind the scenes of
people, when we're not with people.
And so we begin to maybe jump
to conclusions, um, start maybe
judging people's intentions
instead of knowing their actions.
And so I think there are more
challenges now that we're, we're maybe
just a little more aware of because
of maybe some of the disconnect of
time we're spending with people.
Steve Gladen: Yeah, no doubt.
Proximity tends to breed empathy.
William Johnston: Mm-Hmm.
Steve Gladen: If we're scattered,
we're working separate and things
like that, and the natural things
you talked about makes sense.
William Johnston: Yeah.
Yeah.
Track 1: Will, I really like your, um,
just the point you make on individualistic
results and that my personal results
are The utmost sign of success,
you know, in, in the secular world.
But that does so bleed over into ministry.
And I like the point you make that,
um, we, we often don't know how
to measure success in the church.
Well, um, but the goal is for the
church, the body of Christ to flourish.
And whether that's small groups,
you know, you, I have X amount
of groups and so we think, oh.
We've hit the pinnacle and we're
healthy when maybe what's happening
in the groups is not healthy.
Right.
Or because our church has reached this
number of people, um, you know, externally
that can be cool and exciting and on
social media, but like you're saying,
the staff can not even be unified.
So I love these points.
You're, you're hitting on, keep it going.
William Johnston: yeah, yeah, of course.
And I, I think kind of the next
question it comes to is then
we begin to point fingers like
we, yeah, we'll agree on that.
This is an issue.
We'll agree we want to
enjoy where we work.
But then we say, okay,
who's, whose fault is it?
And I typically see.
We first kind of point to our, our senior
leader, which I totally understand.
It's like we, we see them as, as
this headpiece there and, and we
typically just jump quickly and we take
ourselves out of the equation of it.
But I have found that if we're,
if we, in our small groups role or
whatever other role we have in a
church, if we're, if we're the person.
That takes ourself out of, of it, then
we're probably 50% of the problem.
If we're just sitting back waiting,
uh, complaining about what other
people are not doing, then we're,
we're kind of part of the problem.
And I, I can think of similar, you
know, phrasings that people use of,
oh, well, you know, my lead pastor,
they just need to set the tone.
Or, oh man, if the
denomination just did this.
Then fill in the blank, or, oh man, if
the board of directors, if the deacons
is, if they had this conversation,
then things would be different.
And so we, we think of a, of
certain people in authority
as the ones who have the, so.
Responsibility with staff dynamics
with our workplace instead of maybe
seeing ourselves as an equal portion.
So instead of seeing it as maybe a pie
that we're all an equal part of the pie
and well, if the pie don't taste good,
hey man, we're . We are one of those
slices that don't taste good as well.
And so we, we have to think of ourselves
in it and not necessarily as ones who
are receiving it, and I think that's
where part of that disconnect is.
Steve Gladen: Yeah, you bring up a great
point and, and I know we want to get to
some of the practical pieces, but I, I
think I can remember young in my ministry
career, uh, how, whether I was in student
ministry or in uh, uh, singles ministry or
even couples ministry, you know, there was
that, those points where I, I would think
to myself, well, if the, if the church
was growing, if the weekend was growing.
then I could do my job a whole lot
better versus thinking, you know,
okay, if the weekend is hurting, how
can I come along and be a part of
that solution and, and, and be seen as
a, a friend, not a foe to the senior
pastor or if nothing else, an anchor.
Um.
That's doing nothing but sitting
around waiting to be used.
And so, uh, on the ship.
So, uh, I think you bring up a a good
point because I think when you're
not in the first chair, it's very
easy for you to armchair quarterback
or critique or not jump into the
fray and say, how do I help this?
Whether or not it's, it's
in my job description.
So, uh, now when you're
moving away, let's say.
All of our listeners, which I know they
are, they're like going, I, I would never
cast blame like Steve did when he was
younger, uh, with that, but, so what, what
would be some steps to go towards that?
How would you, how would you course
correct maybe some things when you're
thinking about, you know, okay.
Is this a course correct
on leading up a course?
Correct.
On leading out what?
How would you navigate that?
William Johnston: Hmm.
That, that's great.
And I, I think I'm gonna set some
crawl, walk and run steps for us
because we're all at different
Steve Gladen: love that at
William Johnston: and
we do, we do love that.
And I think we're all just at
different points with this.
I think everything I'm gonna present
is pretty, it's pretty standard.
Like nothing's necessarily novel
about it, but I think it just
takes a lot of intentionality.
I think we can, when we are not doing it,
like we can say, oh yeah, this is easy.
And the truth is it is
easy, but is it a habit?
Are these things bleeding in
to our everyday church life?
And typically . I'll speak for myself.
Typically it's no, typically it's no,
I can go through this list myself,
and this is a checklist for myself.
And I can say weekly, oh,
this isn't how I've lived.
And so it's making it a habit.
'cause we can say it's easy and
we can do it one-off, but if we
don't make it a habit, then nothing
is realistically gonna change.
Steve Gladen: Hmm.
William Johnston: So I think it really
starts with thinking about what, what
do you want your work culture to be?
And then what steps are you gonna take it?
Take to get there.
It's basic goal setting, but many of
us want someone else to, like I said
earlier, set the tone and so then we
don't even think about, we'll complain
about it, but we don't necessarily think
about what's the work culture, what's
the church culture we wanna create here?
We let that be separate, but when
really we need to start with that
of where do we want this to be?
What do I want it to be when I step in
at 9:00 AM or Sunday morning at 7:00
AM What do I want it to feel like?
And what are the steps that
I need to take to get there?
So I'll give some helpful pieces
here of maybe some crawl steps.
And this for me started
out just as a checklist of,
Steve Gladen: Hmm.
William Johnston: okay, if I'm going
to be intentional in my community
here, in my staff, this is a checklist
that I feel like we need to be going
through every other week, just to
say, okay, am I doing these things?
I remember in a leadership class in
Bible school, we, we talked through
So many leadership principles
that were basic and then we had
to follow up within our ministry.
Are we doing those things?
And we all came back and it was like, with
10% efficiency, are we doing those things?
And so this is a checklist I think is
helpful to come back to every other week.
And so he, and the cross steps,
I just have a lot of questions.
So if you're thinking, man, I just
really need to get started with this.
I just need to try something.
I think these are all
questions that are helpful.
Uh, so the, so the first one
is, uh, how can I make this more
fun, memorable, or intentional?
That's just whatever you're doing,
whether you're in a staff meeting,
whether you're at lunch with your staff,
whether you're in a hard conversation,
how do you make it more intentional?
How do you make it more memorable?
Are you just allowing things to
happen or are you being proactive in
those conversations, in your staff
meetings, in your conversations?
Um, the second is, how much time am
I spending with each staff member?
is twofold.
This is, am I not spending
enough time with a certain staff
member or am I spending too
much with another staff member?
We , you know, we know this.
We all gravitate towards certain people.
Uh, we're always gonna have our
staff buddy, but are we spending
adequate time with each staff member?
Are we saying, well, okay, you know, I
don't really connect with this person.
Well, do you not connect
with that person because.
Realistic things, or is it just
because you haven't spent time
with them that that's a true thing?
How do we equally share time with people?
Uh, the third one is, when was the
last time I ate a meal with each staff
member in a setting of four or less?
And so I say four or less
is like, is it intimate?
Can you have real conversation there?
And.
Some of us, you know, our staffs, I've
worked on a church where the staff
was less than four, and so I, you can
have all those intimate conversations,
but as they continue to grow, as your
staff continues to grow, you need to be
intentional thinking, okay, just because
it grows, we can't keep doing the same
things and expense, expecting the same
intentionality and output from it.
So making challenge, making
changes to adapt to that.
Steve Gladen: Mm-Hmm.
William Johnston: Number four is,
when was the last time I talked
with them about their family?
This just shows deeper care.
We can be so tied to task and
responsibilities in ministry that we
forget about the personhood, we forget
about the person that we're dealing
with, and so we separate ourselves.
So then it becomes, if it's just about
task and responsibilities, if they
are not doing their task, if they're
not doing what's helpful for me.
Then our relationship
is not good together.
But if it's more than that, if it's
more about their family, if it's more
about who they are as a person, then
those things are actually secondary.
We care about them as a person first, and
when we think about then judging their
intentions, we know their intentions.
We know who they are.
Steve Gladen: Y you know, I remember when,
uh, when we were taking Erica to college,
this is seven, eight years ago, and I
remember, uh, Rick, I forget if he sent
me a text or a, an email and he just said,
Hey, I know you're jumping on a plane.
You and your family, you're
gonna go as a family of four,
dropping your daughter off.
You're gonna come home with three.
He goes, I know it's gonna be
the toughest day of your life.
And I just wanna let you
know, I'm praying for you.
Kay.
And I are praying for you.
And, and it, it literally
brought me to tears because
I'm like going, oh my goodness.
You know, it's this, you
know, not out of the blue.
But it was just one of those
things where, you know, he, he was
engaging me where my heart was at.
So, uh, I love that I interrupted you, but
William Johnston: Oh no, that,
Steve Gladen: pressing.
These are, these are, these are gold.
These are gold.
These are only cross steps.
know.
We got runs to come to.
William Johnston: Yeah.
Uh, so the next crawl step is how
much time am I spending in communal
spaces or around other staff?
This, no matter what size of
church you're at, can be an issue.
If you're just a closed door mentality of,
hey, you, you show up, you get your stuff
done, it happens behind a closed door.
Steve Gladen: Yeah.
William Johnston: They're,
you're making choices that have
consequences that come with that.
I know for myself, I try to have a 50 50.
Mentality with myself, because I know,
and we all know if we're in a communal
space, we probably get a little less done.
We're probably not as productive as
we are maybe when we're on our own.
But there's something that communicates
when we're working with each other.
And there's something also that spending
time with people breeds collabor
reality, and that's not something that
necessarily comes quickly or easy.
And so spending
Steve Gladen: just
William Johnston: in those.
I made that word up.
I realized that as I said it, you
know, and, uh, yeah, you'll find
in a dictionary soon, just by
the 2023 version, it'll be there.
Yeah.
Steve Gladen: love it.
Collabor,
William Johnston: Breeds a little
collaboration, you know, for all of
the old people out there who don't
have the newer dictionaries there.
Yeah.
Steve Gladen: Ouch.
William Johnston: I didn't say you,
Steve, you, you took that on yourself.
You, you put yourself in
Steve Gladen: Okay.
Keep going.
Keep going with how we're
building this community.
William Johnston: Uh, next is when
was the last time I followed up on
something we talked about recently?
So if someone shared something with you,
whether it was a prayer request, whether
it was something going on in their life,
when was the last time you checked in?
And it can be something light.
Um, I know someone I worked with
is a huge, uh, penguins fan, and
I don't like hockey at all, but
when they're in the playoffs, I'm
texting, oh man, did you see this?
I can't believe that play.
That's nuts.
That's crazy.
And . That, those are just little
things that go a long way with people.
Uh, the next is what does each staff
member want from our relationship?
So what are expectations that they want?
'cause you'll have people on staff that
are extreme extroverts and if they could
have a game night with you seven nights of
the week, they will be there ready to go.
And there's other people who, hey, all
they want from you is maybe just a weekly
check-in and dropping off a coffee at
their desk and knowing those expectations.
Steve Gladen: Mm
William Johnston: you spend the, the
time that actually needs to happen
for that relationship to grow.
And then the last one, which honestly
could be the first one, is when was the
last time I encouraged each staff member?
When was the last time I encouraged
each staff member to their face?
Steve Gladen: Yeah,
William Johnston: I think I know for
myself, I can get caught on that one
and say, Ooh, it's, it's been some time.
It's been some time.
So there's some crawl steps.
And you might say,
Steve Gladen: this list is gold.
I mean, just, just on the crawl
steps, I'm like going, dude, by the
way, people may be thinking, you
know, you may be listening to this
podcast and you're listening to,
you know, leading up and leading out
with our, our buddy Will Johnston.
And you're like going, you're
listening, going, what are all those?
Hey, in the show notes, we are gonna,
we are gonna capture everything
that Will has been dropping on us,
and we'll, we'll get these to you.
So if you're, if you're feeling lost in
the world, don't worry in the show notes.
You're gonna have it all itemized for you.
Uh, the best we can, we will edit
out, you know, the, the, uh, air
fryer on the, on the, uh, hamsters
and the gerbils and all that.
But we'll, we'll get you the
good stuff in the show notes so
you can keep going with that.
So you gave us some great crawl steps.
I mean, I mean, seriously.
We'll, awesome crawl steps.
What?
Go to the walk and the run.
William Johnston: Yeah.
Yeah.
And we'll, we'll walk and
run through these ones too.
And if, yeah, if you're
saying these are easy.
Okay.
How do we then step up the
ante, uh, with walk steps?
I think a good walk step is for you to
have an onboarding strategy for new staff.
So we think of onboarding, maybe
being, if we're a larger church in HR
thing, or maybe being a senior lead
pastor piece, but as Staff who are
just sitting around a table equally,
how do we have an onboarding strategy?
So are we taking them out to lunch,
you know, or bringing in a quick lunch
for them that we can just sit and chat.
Uh, for me, my onboarding strategy is
spending time with that person once a week
for just, hey, maybe going and sitting in
their office, uh, maybe taking them out.
And then the second thing is a weekly
check-in on if they have questions.
Every church culture is different, so
they can be in ministry for 40 years,
come to a new staff, and it's really
starting over and figuring things out.
And so it's two weekly check-ins.
One for relational connection
and one for work connection.
Hey, can I help you with anything there?
Any acronyms we use that use?
I have no idea what we're talking about.
All of those pieces that.
Sometimes we just don't think about,
and then staff are sitting there
for a year and being like, man,
they have been talking about this
every staff meeting for a year.
And I'm just afraid to ask.
We can take care of those things,
being somebody around the table
and making that initiation ourself.
Yeah.
So we have to have an onboarding strategy.
Uh, secondly is just thinking about how,
how do we engage them on a deeper level?
So outside of an onboarding, just a normal
staff member, uh, inviting them and their
spouse over for FA food or game night.
I know I briefly talked about earlier,
some people would want this every
night, but maybe even just quarterly
thinking, how am I engaging their family?
How am I engaging their family outside
of a nine to five, uh, workday.
Uh, the next is, this is a fun one.
No one everyone's favorite drink.
I.
So when you go to a restaurant,
uh, I, I don't know about you,
but I find that everybody, the
splits, you get into a restaurant,
people need to wash their hands.
They're checking in on their kids.
Do they need to pick up their kids?
'cause they're in detention and.
If, you know, everyone's drinking
can order for them, you think, oh,
that sounds kind of, I don't know.
That's, that's a random one.
But it goes a long way with
people 'cause it shows that
they're known on a deeper level.
It shows Okay.
Yeah.
You know them, you've spent time
with them, you know their ministry.
If you know something so finite
with them, then you might know
some of the bigger things as well.
Steve Gladen: I know Derek's
drink is a Shirley Temple, so,
uh, I've got that down pat.
William Johnston: Oh, I,
I love that, you know.
Track 1: I love that.
That's, that's what I'd
call a pro tip right there.
Know their drinks, come on.
I mean, this stuff sounds so . Simple
on ways, but it's, it's so huge, right?
William Johnston: mm-Hmm.
Track 1: so, it's so human.
It's so personal and I mean, I know we've
all worked for several churches by now
in our lives and it's, it's crazy how,
I mean, I look back on some of, some of
the churches I was at had, had the, had I
practiced some of this and then, you know,
the lead pastor practiced some of this.
I might've lasted a lot longer.
Steve Gladen: So true.
William Johnston: Yeah, and I think that's
just the case of, uh, we can, we can take
some of the initiative to help ourselves,
some of the burden that we're carrying.
These simple things take off.
And so when we think about some of these
bigger challenges that are weighing
on us, some of these set the table to
actually take apart some of those deeper
challenges before they ever start.
Before they ever get going.
Um, some of those other walk steps,
which I think are, are helpful to,
to break those down even more, uh,
is knowing their birthdays and their
family member's birthdays again, an
easy thing, but you know, as much as
I love you, Steve, I don't know your
exact birthday, but it's in my calendar.
I have your birthday in my calendar,
and so, you know, hey, this last week
you said it was your birthday and
I, man, 11:00 AM I get a reminder.
It's Steve's birthday and I shoot you a
text and tho I have every staff member
in my, in my calendar, I have every
staff member's, spouse and I also have
now every staff member's kids' birthday
in my calendar so I can just follow
up with them, send a nice little text
to say, Hey, have a great birthday.
And those little things
go a long, long way,
Steve Gladen: Hey, your present
didn't come yet, so just if you
have the tracking number, if you
can flip that and check it up on
William Johnston: Uh, yeah, I, I
sent a carrier pitch in and, uh, he
only had one leg, so I don't know
if he'll make it there on time,
but by next year it'll be there.
It'll be there.
And that that goes to my next one, which
is actually individualized birthday gifts.
And now you're thinking, Hey, I make
as much as a pastor, I don't have
enough for individualized birthday
gifts, but I will tell you over my
12 years in ministry.
The gift that's meant the most to
me, and you're gonna laugh at this,
is I got this year for my birthday
from a staff member a one of those
pop figurines of the Hamburglar.
You think that is so random and it was,
and it probably cost him five bucks.
But another staff member, I, we've got
some inside jokes about McDonald's.
They're dumb.
They're probably not funny to any other
person, but to me that he knew me so well
that he was gonna buy me something that.
Was significant to our friendship.
It didn't have to cost a lot,
but again, it was personalized,
it was individualized.
And that thing is sitting
on my desk and my wife hates
that it's sitting on my desk.
But that to me means something
and we can all do that.
We can spend three, four bucks on
something that means something to someone
besides getting a gift card for 25.
We don't need to be
thinking about those things.
We can just think of something that's
individualized for someone that
might mean something more to them.
Steve Gladen: And just so you guys
are knowing as Will's blowing through
these lists and everything like that,
he, he, he preaches, he lives what he's
talking about, and he buys what he sells.
I know that, uh, he had a connection
with my son who he knew loved hot
sauces and he, not an expensive
thing, but got him, you know, uh, you
know, a four set little bottle of hot
sauces that, uh, he loved and he just
knew as Pastor Will, uh, with that.
So it's, you know, it's these things.
So keep going, man.
I just gotta, I could
jump in on everything,
William Johnston: Thanks man,
and I hope you sweated with
those hot sauces with them.
I hope you
Steve Gladen: So that was the motivation.
William Johnston: Exactly, exactly.
Well, the last walk step I have is
show up to something that matters
to them, whether that's, uh, a kid's
sports game or play, uh, whether it's
something that they do, even if it's
just a slow pitch softball league.
Whatever matters to that staff
member, just make an attempt
to show up and just be present.
Doesn't cost anything.
Won't take too much of your time, but
just show up to something that matters.
Steve Gladen: You know, and, and,
and so often in student ministry,
this is such common stuff.
I mean, I can't tell you how many
high school games I went to, how many
junior high games I went to, how many
recitals I went to as a student pastor.
But you know, somehow as we drift
into adult world, we forget that
the same principles are so powerful.
So.
William Johnston: Yeah.
Yeah.
Steve Gladen: What do you
got for us on the run?
You, you've, you've gone through seven,
eight or so, crawl six or so walk, and as
we bleed into the run steps, keep going.
William Johnston: Yeah, the run steps,
I think we need, we need to think
about what we're thinking about.
And I, I read this really interesting
study about long lasting relationships
and marriages and they talked about
that unique joint experiences.
I.
We're one of the great underlying
contributors to long lasting marriages.
And I thought that was so interesting
and I began to apply it to my ministry.
And how I connected with people is
how can I then create unique joint
experiences with my staff, with people
that are sitting across from me at a desk?
And I think this is where things
can go from really good to great,
and they're not actually hard.
So two things that I'll
just throw out here.
That I've done that are really,
really helpful is finding
grand openings in your area.
These are just, when I talk about unique
joint experiences, these are just one-offs
that maybe are a little bit different.
Uh, to give some perspective, this
is kind of like when a team goes on a
mission strip and they didn't know each
other beforehand, but they come back.
They are tight.
I mean, they will just tell everybody
every story, play by play that you
do not want to hear, but it's meant
something to them that they've
lived this unique joint experience.
So how do we then create that in our
everyday ministry when we're grinding
nine to five, when we're grinding all
this extra time, uh, together in ministry?
So one of those is grand openings.
There are so many in different communities
where it's just a grand opening.
You come for free.
And they are usually pretty
comical 'cause most places aren't
prepared for a grand opening.
And so we started doing this as a staff.
I would just find grand openings.
We would go and these were
just unique joint experiences.
And then on the ministry side is.
Where can you look for unique
community events where you as a
staff can engage in the community?
So you're really working hard at
something, but it's something significant
that you guys get to join in together in.
So those are this two easy run
steps, but I think it really starts
with how do you share more unique
joint experiences with your staff.
Track 1: will, what would a, could
you give a, give a couple examples
of what a community event might be?
William Johnston: Hmm.
Yeah, I think it's just something
that you don't have to put on.
So something that you get to join in with.
So this can be even just an outreach
event of hey, reaching out to, um,
whether it's the city parks and Rec
department, they're just putting
something on for the community.
Uh, I know this last year, uh, the city
I was working in, we they put on as just
an Easter event the week before Easter.
We said, Hey, can we just come
along suit and just help you
with whatever you're doing?
It was a great outreach for us to connect
with families in the community, but it
was, it's, it's just a wild time when
you are actually not in control of the
event and there was just so many stories
that came out for that, and we just got
a bond as a staff for that time together.
Steve Gladen: So would that include maybe
even baseball games or things like that?
Anything?
William Johnston: Oh sure.
Yeah.
It can be some fun stuff too.
You know, go to a minor league
baseball game, go to go to
something that's fun together.
Spend time that's just unique with people.
That's just not, not
something you do every day.
Steve Gladen: Yeah.
No, it's great.
So Wills, we've been talking about
leading up and leading out, and
you've talked about a lot of good
foundational things that you do.
The crawl, walk, run.
I love your phrase, you know it's
easy, but is but is it a habit?
And I'll just wanna encourage
listeners go into the show notes.
I.
Go through these crawl,
walk runs and listen to 'em.
But we're, we're not done.
We're not done yet.
But, uh, you know, the other thing
I would say is, you know, will and I
have, and Derek have journeyed down
this road of doing these things.
It, it's gonna take time.
And when you look at this list,
you're thinking, oh my gosh,
you know, how do I microwave it?
And he just can't.
And so that's why this is so
important, the foundational piece.
This is so important because what
it does is it sets up the next
thing that we're gonna talk about.
And, and will.
We know that the senior leader is probably
one of the biggest juggernauts that, you
know, people who are small groups, uh,
types that are trying to listen through,
listen to this and go, okay, I'll, I'll
put into these crawl walk runs in play.
But would you say as you're, how,
how is, because we know trust
drives everything, how, what would
be some, some nuggets that maybe.
As we're trying to, to build those bridges
and obviously the the crawl walk runs
that, that you gave right here, but what,
how would you unpack that part of it as
you're going to that next level of, of
really working with the senior leader?
William Johnston: That's,
that's really good.
I, you know, this kinda gets into that
leading up principle we've talked about
leading out, but this gets to that
leading up principle and Typically when
we approach this, we come with the idea
of, okay, our senior leader in our eyes
isn't doing something correctly, or Our
senior leader isn't taking our ideas,
and so then we want A, B and C to happen.
And so it doesn't actually start
with wanting to build trust,
to build trust in relationship.
It starts with wanting something
on the other end of it.
Our senior leader becomes
a means to an end.
So I think building trust, it really
just needs to begin with right intentions
instead of wanting to connect with them
because we want something, we need to
start with the right intentions because
that's the difference with actually
between leading up and sucking up.
Those, those are those two things that
if it's with another intention, oh,
this is actually just sucking up and
we, we've been around, we know, we know.
We can see those things happening.
Steve Gladen: Derek.
That's gotta be the title of the show now.
You know, it's not leading
up and leading out.
It's leading, what'd you say?
Leading.
William Johnston: I, so the difference
between leading up and sucking up Yeah.
Steve Gladen: Yeah.
There we go, baby.
Track 1: Up verse sucking up.
Steve Gladen: There we go.
I, I, I think it, it's, you know, we
gotta get a little, it's gonna be great.
That'll drive it through.
I digress very quickly.
As you can see on the show,
you'll never come back, will,
but we wanna have you back.
Keep going.
William Johnston: I am
used to you by now, Steve.
I'm used to you by now.
So, uh, so really it just, it
just can't be a ploy, you know,
building trust cannot be a ploy.
It has to really start with enjoying
and living with the people that
God has placed in your life.
Because really it's, it's not gonna be
successful in the long term if it really
is about sucking up, if it's about getting
something, if it's not done with the
right heart, probably the right action
is not gonna come out, and then the not
the right result is gonna follow with it.
So, so I really think trust with a
senior leader, it starts with just
the basics of being a good friend.
you might say that is obvious,
but Exactly it's obvious.
And many times I know I haven't done it.
Many times I've seen other people
when they come to me and say, Hey,
I'm having this, this, and this.
How do I approach them about
a serious conversation?
So it starts with the end first saying,
oh buddy, man, you got a lot of things to
work through before you can get to that.
You haven't even built
friendship and trust with them.
And so it is kind of this funny disconnect
though, because typically, I mean, if
you're in ministry, you know people
wanna be close to the senior pastor,
they wanna be close to the lead pastor.
But then yet, when we get into a
church role and many small groups of
people, we might be the closest person.
To the senior pastor, we don't
actually value that relational equity.
That may be someone who's just an
average church attender would, and so
we begin to think of it more in work
terms, which we've talked about earlier
in a work culture, thinking of them as
a boss instead of a ministry partner.
We then just take ourselves a
little bit outta the equation.
We want them to take the
initiative in our relationship.
We want them to really take lead.
And so we just sit back and wait for
our senior leader, our lead person to
initiate, and then we become frustrated
when our relationship with them doesn't
look the ways that we want it to.
Steve Gladen: Yeah.
William Johnston: And so we
need to make changes when it
comes, when it comes to that.
Track 1: So good.
So good.
So will you've set this up great for us.
So how do we go about getting
practical now about making changes
to, uh, make all this come about?
William Johnston: I think it really
starts with a fancy Christian word, which
I didn't make up, uh, which is posture.
It needs to start with the
right posture, uh, where I gave
very practical pieces for I.
For leading out.
I think it comes with the right posture,
and some of these are practical, but I,
I just have about five or six questions
which I think are helpful to gauge.
Your intentions are your intentions.
Right.
Um, so the first one is, when's the last
time you prayed for your lead pastor?
Steve Gladen: Hmm.
William Johnston: Easy.
It's Christian.
We should say.
Oh yeah, we, oh yeah.
We do it.
Steve Gladen: Yeah.
William Johnston: But do we, but do
we, uh, the next is, when was the
last time you asked about their kids?
This is similar to a crawl step.
I said, with leading out, you gotta
care for care for their family.
Uh, when was the last time
you asked them out for dinner?
I've heard people say, oh man, you know,
they never, they never invite me over.
They never have me out.
Okay, well, when, when's
the last time you did it?
If you, if you're not doing it,
how can you expect them to do it?
Either?
Uh, when was the last time you
asked if there's something you
could take off their plate?
So many times we're saying, okay,
why can't they trust me with more?
How about we put it vice versa.
If you see them struggling with
something saying, Hey, can I
take this off your plate for you?
Can I run with this?
And I will say, a hundred million
percent of the time, they will say yes.
I don't know any lead pastor that
doesn't wanna push something off
of their plate onto somebody else.
And so when you take that
Steve Gladen: can't do that
when I take them to dinner.
William Johnston: Exactly, exactly.
Steve Gladen: We'll do it more on.
William Johnston: Yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Uh, but this is, this is key of
taking something off their plate.
And I think similarly to that is can
you be the conscious for something on
your church's campus in your church work
culture that maybe they are not aware of
or maybe something they're not good at.
I think that's where things
can kind of make a shift of, I
know some in my previous role.
There was an area where I knew my lead
pastor, this wasn't his skillset, he
was honest about it, but I was, I was
a little above average in that area.
And so I said, Hey, can I be the
conscience for this at the campus?
Can I just take things over on
this and just ask good questions
about it and follow up with it?
And those are areas that, okay, you
are, you are asking for trust it most
of the time will be given, and then
you get to prove yourself with it.
Uh, the next is when was the last
time you talked with no agenda?
I find that the larger your church staff
becomes, the more the relationship between
the senior leader and staff person becomes
just about task and responsibilities,
Steve Gladen: Yeah.
William Johnston: and it's just,
oh, I, I have a second with them.
I want to take it to ask
about this, this, and this,
Steve Gladen: Hmm.
William Johnston: where we really need to
start with, if I have a second with them,
I'm gonna check in on how they're doing.
I'm gonna check in and, Hey,
how's your marriage holding up?
This is, this seems like
a hard season for you.
Or, Hey, I, you know, I saw
on Instagram your, your kid's
in little league right now.
How, how's it going?
I think when we think about,
okay, I have a second with them.
We should think of that first
before having an agenda piece.
Steve Gladen: Yeah.
William Johnston: last thing
to think about is when was the
last time you texted them about
something happening in their life?
And why I say text is this
is an outside of work.
Time.
This is a time that's on your own
and you're saying, Hey, I'm gonna
take the initiative to ask you
something about your life that's
going on with you and check in.
So these are all this kind of
flipping the script of if you're in
a leadership role, oh this is this.
Oh yeah, I would ask my people
this, but how can we flip it and
put the responsibility on ourselves?
Steve Gladen: So will you, you,
you're talking about some great things
from the last, uh, chunk of, uh, the
episode to this one, you know, you
know, on the, on the leading out.
And then as we're talking about the
leading out, but what, what do you do?
What if it's not all roses?
Maybe this is the front end.
What if there's you Snap?
I know you never experienced
this part with me.
Uh, but, but let's suppose, you know,
there, there's a hiccup, a problem, uh
uh, a fly in the ointment, something
like that that's going on, uh, which
maybe some people have out there.
Maybe they.
They're trying to, what, what
would you, how, how would you
take this a step deeper into the
conversation with the senior leader?
William Johnston: Yeah.
So how do we have these hard conversations
with someone in a seat of power over us?
I think is always a challenge.
And you know, you might come through here,
these . These posturing questions I ask
and think, okay, I'm just good to roll.
And for me, I.
I try to ask myself a few questions
before I go into these conversations to
make sure my intentions are pure, because
we typically want to express concern,
frustration, or challenges, but those are
all emotions that can express themselves
in so many different ways and they can
be rooted in some deeper heart areas.
I think we need to be aware of
before we just say, okay, I've
got a good relationship with them.
I'm just gonna jump in.
And so.
Questions I think of are one I
talked about earlier is when was
the last time I encouraged them?
If I can't think about the last time I've
encouraged them, I probably shouldn't
be having a hard conversation with them.
Steve Gladen: Okay.
William Johnston: probably aren't right.
Uh, the second is I ask, are my emotions
pure or am I mad because they shot down
my idea, they've been spending more time
with another staff member besides me.
Um, or there's something going on at
home within my life and I actually
don't have a healthy outlet for it.
So I'm finding this to let it out.
And then the last one is,
am I okay being wrong?
When we bring something to a person,
specifically a, a lead pastor, someone
in authority over us, there is a good
possibility that our vision isn't
whole with this, that we are not
seeing everything in the picture.
So are we okay if he either does he
or she doesn't agree with it, or if
actually our perspective is not full
and is actually incorrect because of it?
And so when we can start there,
we can start to make changes.
Steve Gladen: So we'll take it another
step though, because, I mean, this looks
great in, in the conversation, but there
is the reality too that when, when people
are trying to engage with their, their
lead person, there, there is a little
bit of, you know, fear and trepidation.
Uh, because they are, they are in power.
They are, they are in
the seed ahead of us.
William Johnston: Mm-Hmm.
Steve Gladen: What in
fear is a common emotion.
The enemy uses that on,
on every place it can.
What, how would you, how would
you address that aspect of it?
I mean, I love where you're going with
William Johnston: Mm-Hmm.
Steve Gladen: but there's also just,
if they can't overcome the emotional
piece, they'll never get to these pieces.
William Johnston: Yeah.
I, I think that's a
really honest question.
And I do know in ministry there
are leaders who are unhealthy.
There are leaders who things
just don't, things aren't in the
places they need to be, but I.
I, I'm, I'm a very positive guy,
so I would venture to say that
most of our, the people leading us,
want the betterness of the church.
They want our church to grow,
to succeed, to be healthy.
And if we begin with that and
believing that, if that is their goal.
What we're bringing to
them plays into that goal.
We don't have to approach it with fear.
Uh, I think there's good ways to
approach it when it comes to practical
pieces, you know, of our tone,
the time we spend with them, uh,
when we have these conversations.
But if it's playing into the overall
goal of the church, I know now sitting
in a lead role currently, I, man, I
would value if there's something that's
going on that needs to be changed.
Bring it to me.
If I said something that either
hurt somebody, offended someone,
man, bring it to me and I would
love to talk through that.
And so when it starts with that, if
it starts with saying, I care for the
betterment of the church, so I am bringing
this up, that is where I think the fear
can take a backseat and we can view this
as a team going forward in the future.
Steve Gladen: Okay, well, we've been, uh,
talking with Will Johnston, uh, one of
my favorite pastors on Saddleback staff.
Did a, doing some great things.
We'll get some final words that we
may have missed, uh, from you on that.
I also have a companion
podcast that goes with this.
That'll be in the show notes.
You can look on that on, on how to,
uh, lead up with your senior leader.
And as we've been talking about
leading up and leading out.
Uh, or, uh, which I like better
leading up and not sucking up.
Uh, that'll be the
subtitle, uh, uh, to it.
Uh, will, do you have any last
thoughts before Derek brings
us home and wraps it up?
William Johnston: Yeah, I would, I would
just say leading up and leading out, uh,
you know, it's not about getting your
way, like we were just talking about.
It's not about making you rise to the top.
It's about caring for your church.
It's about caring for your staff, uh,
your senior leader, having their back,
and if you commit to just those things,
your church will be a better place.
Steve Gladen: Outstanding
Track 1: So good.
Will, uh, you should sleep well tonight.
Knowing that Steve Gladden just said you
are one of his favorite Saddleback pastors
Steve Gladen: because, 'cause
I've never said that before.
Track 1: Uh.
William Johnston: of many.
One of many.
Yeah.
Steve Gladen: Uh, . No, we have, we
have way too much fun, which is, which
is why we had to jump you on here and,
uh, will you, the gold you brought.
And again, I just wanna remind
our listeners all, all the lists
that he threw out, we are gonna
get 'em into the show notes.
They'll be there, uh, for you to
go from, 'cause there, there's
actually some, some stinking gold
on this and so, so happy for that.
So will love what you brought.
William Johnston: Well thanks.
Thanks for having me.
And man for all those listeners,
praying for your churches, praying
for your staff health 'cause
I know how much that matters.
Track 1: Yeah.
Will.
Great job.
Thank you so much for, uh,
joining us today and for all the
time you put into these notes,
like Steve said, absolute gold.
Everybody listening, go to the show notes.
Uh, download these, uh, this, this list
will create it, print it, put it on your
fridge, tape it to your forehead, and, uh.
And you'll have a healthier
church culture because of it.
Well, we also wanna thank
everybody listening.
Thank you again for spending
part of your day with us and
for tuning in to SSG squared.
And we, our prayers at this episode
encouraged you and empowers you
to lead healthier, better, small
groups in your local church.
So until next time, goodbye.
Steve Gladen: See everybody.
Thank you for listening.
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