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Work-life balance isn’t a myth—it’s a mission. At The Double Win Podcast we believe that ambitious, high-growth individuals can experience personal and professional fulfillment simultaneously. Hosted by the creators of the Full Focus Planner, Michael Hyatt and Megan Hyatt Miller, The Double Win Podcast is your go-to resource for unlocking secrets to productivity, wellness, and work-life balance.
The Double Win Podcast features insightful weekly conversations with thought leaders, executives, and entrepreneurs sharing fascinating personal stories and actionable ideas for balancing professional success with personal well-being. Whether you're looking for motivation to achieve your goals or strategies to harmonize your career and life, The Double Win Podcast provides the perspectives and tools you need.
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[00:00:00] Self leadership always precedes team effectiveness and team effectiveness always precedes organizational impact. And that's a core principle of ours. So how we lead ourselves enables us to be present when we're where we're at. With whom we're supposed to be with Hi, i'm michael hyatt and i'm megan hyatt miller and you're listening to the double wind show Well today we are so excited to be talking with our good friend daniel harkin So daniel and I have a long relationship.
[00:00:33] I hired him in 2002 To be my very first executive coach and he came into my life At a very pivotal time. In fact, I would not be on this podcast today I might not be married. I may not have the respect of my children You If he hadn't come into my life and basically challenged me to win at work and succeed at life.
[00:00:53] So just to give you the official bio, Daniel's the CEO and the founder of building champions, a coaching firm specializing [00:01:00] in leadership and life planning is over 25 years of experience coaching leaders across various industries. I had the privilege back when I was in the publishing industry of publishing his first book, becoming a coaching leader, which focuses on transforming Management through a coaching approach.
[00:01:17] It's a total game changer. And then Daniel, I wrote the book living forward, which is a book on life planning, and then he wrote the seven perspectives of effective leaders, which we talk about in this episode. And that too is a phenomenal book. So Daniel's amazing. And I think you're gonna enjoy this conversation.
[00:01:35] I think you're going to learn a ton. So enjoy
[00:01:41] Daniel. Welcome to the show, Michael and Megan. It's great to be with you both. You know, as we said in the intro, you played an absolutely pivotal part in what has now become the double win in full focus, you know, without you and your [00:02:00] coaching of my dad. There would be no double win because he wouldn't have gotten a double win, much less than able to figure out how we can teach other people how to get this.
[00:02:09] So I want to kind of go back in time for a second. And I want you to talk about what it was like to coach him. Cause every, I think everybody listening knows him as a coach because he is a coach now, but at one time he was your coachee. So what was he like to coach and how did that. Relationship kind of begin in terms of what y'all were working on.
[00:02:28] Um, he's been pretty transparent about that So yeah, you have my full permission to share anything and everything you want. All right. All right. Well The first thing that everybody needs to know, especially you, is that he always showed up as a very hungry client. He wanted to learn and he wanted to grow.
[00:02:45] And as he has shared, both in our book, living forward, as well as with others, he was at a point when he came to me where the stakes were really high, you know, his marriage, his health. And, uh, when somebody gets to that point. [00:03:00] The teachability factor, coachability factor is usually pretty, um, up there.
[00:03:05] Whether it stays or not is a different story, right? You know, it's like going to the doctor and they give you the meds and all of a sudden the symptoms are gone, so you just go back to the old lifestyle. Well, your dad did not do that. He, uh, continued to take the principles taught and continued to live them and to work them out to where today, 20 plus years later, He's being used as are you to share those principles with many others.
[00:03:27] And, and hopefully many others are experiencing, you know, success in business and in life as a result of how all three of us. See the opportunity to invest our moments, right? So always a wonderful, wonderful client. One of the first things you did, and one of the things we talk about with our coaching clients is we like to help people get a quick win because the faster they get a quick win, the more confidence they have and the more progress they make, right?
[00:03:53] One of the first things Daniel shared with me, even before I started working on a life plan with Daniel was this idea [00:04:00] of setting boundaries, which was, A brand new idea. You know, the idea that my work would not be seeping into every moment of my life. Was a new idea because I was working evenings. I was working weekends.
[00:04:14] The thought of not working on a vacation was totally foreign because I would always get up early, even on vacations and spend a couple of hours on email before the family got up because I just felt like I couldn't disconnect from work. So he challenged me to set boundaries. And so I remember that I said I would be home by six o'clock and I wouldn't open my computer till the next morning.
[00:04:37] I promised him that I would not work on the weekends and that I would not work on vacations. And so I said, yes, reluctantly. And having that accountability really helped. But at the end of that conversation, he said, well, you know, thank you for committing. He said, I think this is going to be big for you.
[00:04:52] He said, because you've committed, I'm sure you won't mind if I check in with Gail periodically to see how you're doing. And he did. [00:05:00] And that meant the difference. That made the difference. That little bit of accountability. He was never overbearing, but he just was persistent in challenging me to become the best version of me.
[00:05:13] Daniel, is that a thing that you do often that you use that kind of leverage with your clients? I wouldn't say that's something that I, I do often over the last 29 years or so, I've definitely done it numerous times. Usually it has to do with somebody that I want them to know that I'm very serious about their success.
[00:05:33] And I believe that's what they need. And, and I remember early on, and I doubt that our firm does this anymore. We had a, a questionnaire, a pre client, pre coaching questionnaire, building champions, and, and it would say, what level of accountability do you want? And it was mild to do it or die, right? And it was the scale and, uh, and maybe, you know, maybe Michael said, do it or die and I was like, all right, we'll go [00:06:00] for wife accountability here.
[00:06:01] And, uh, that's probably going to be the greatest shot caller I can put on him. So it worked. Wow. Wow. So let's talk about boundaries for a second, because, you know, you talked about the dad, you talked about, this is the kind of the first thing you tackled. Probably not the biggest thing you tackled, but this was sort of like the first domino.
[00:06:20] Daniel, how do you help high achievers, like the people listening to this show, get convinced that they need boundaries and then follow through on it consistently? Because I would think, I mean, I know we've experienced this and continue to experience it. The sort of. Gravitational pull back into work is a strong one.
[00:06:39] I mean, it's not like you set it and forget it. So tell us like what you experienced there. I have a conviction. When I started the company, our tagline for years has been coaching business and life on purpose. Well, usually they say that a, a great vision is birthed out of a burden, right? There's a [00:07:00] burden that the leader has, the founder has, or there's just this tremendous opportunity.
[00:07:05] My burden was as the result of age 20 to 30, watching many very successful Ferrari, Jag, Porsche, tennis court at the home, multiple houses, the boats, all of it, watching them win at work and win with possessions. But then when it came to real personal intimate relationships that bring so much peace, so much fulfillment, so much happiness, there was brokenness everywhere, you know, body bags.
[00:07:34] And, and you look at that as a young man, you know, age 20 to 30, I was like, there, there has to be a better way. Like, yes, I want to be successful. Yes. I was driven in my mortgage banking career in my twenties, I was wildly successful and the allure to work. It was endless four in the morning until 11 at night, you know, my wife today, girlfriend back then can tell stories of me, you know, mid [00:08:00] date night dinners, a big box on my belt, which was back then called the pager it going off, needing to go find a pay phone and blowing a date night because there was another deal.
[00:08:10] So I saw how intoxicating it could be for me to just drive, make more be number one, go, go, go. And I saw who I would wind up as. later on in life. So that developed a conviction. Then into my thirties, what I saw was I really started this Hebrew wisdom passage start to play out. And that has been another conviction of mine.
[00:08:35] And it has to do, you know, folks, regardless of where you are from a faith perspective, this guy Moses is crying out saying, Hey, teach us to number our days so that we may gain a heart of wisdom. And I did deep dives on that because unfortunately. As a young man, I had some friends pass away. So when I saw people could die with a five year old daughter at the age 38, or when I saw a friend die [00:09:00] again at the age 38, another friend with three kids and no life insurance and just destroy a family.
[00:09:07] When I saw those realities for me. Teach us to number our days. Okay. My days are numbered so that I may gain a heart of wisdom. That heart of wisdom talks about this deep conviction of wisdom that says there's no guarantee that I can get to what matters most tomorrow. There's no guarantee of tomorrow.
[00:09:29] So that factored into one of the core principles of, of ours at building champions. And that is, we believe better humans make for better leaders and are distinctive very much like yours is let's create leaders who win at work. They're the best leaders possible, but that's fueled because they're winning in life.
[00:09:49] They're winning in their marriages. They're winning in health. They're winning, dating their kids and with their friends and their hobbies. They're just well balanced. Yeah. You know, I believe that that elevates leadership efficacy because [00:10:00] people are making conscious and subconscious decisions about who you are as a person by what they see, what they observe, how you speak, how you feel.
[00:10:09] So for me, it's been a conviction that started early on out of observing people in states that I didn't want to be in, and it's just kind of continued. So probably four decades deep now. You've coached probably hundreds, maybe thousands, I don't know, of coaching clients, but what is the biggest obstacle that stands in the way for leaders who want to have both professional and personal success?
[00:10:35] It could be belief, Michael. They just may not believe they can. The demands of leadership today are so high. So they're doing everything they can to just try to keep up so they can lead the business well. And for many, they understand that's how they provide, and that's their identities connected to it, et cetera.
[00:10:55] And there's real consequences. That are real time when we don't [00:11:00] succeed at work. So oftentimes we believe that our, our health, and we believe that our spouses and our families and others, well, they'll be there, they'll understand. And right now, you know, as we're recording this in November of 2024, the demands to learn are so high for all leaders.
[00:11:19] And Michael, as a result of my being with you just a couple weeks ago, my area of focus now is artificial intelligence, because as the CEO of both of the firms I lead, if I don't understand how this could change the game, not just how it can help us to optimize, but actually how it could hurt us if we're not up to speed, well, then I'm an irresponsible CEO.
[00:11:37] So that just requires more time and maybe time that I hadn't built in. So there's always opportunities and always demands for us as leaders at work. What has to shift is we have to come to this place of belief that is all around believing what makes us successful in life. It's not just work, which then forces us to get [00:12:00] smarter and more effective at work because we make these non negotiable commitments in the areas of our life that enable us to be the most well rounded.
[00:12:08] fulfilled on purpose people that are humans. We went on a fishing trip, Daniel and I, with four other young guys. We went fly fishing for a couple days in East Tennessee and now we have a text thread and we're committed to getting together this next year, next fall, uh, doing the same thing. But I think you saw and commented on Brian's audio message where he was talking about sort of the tension between ambition and contentment.
[00:12:36] Yes. And so I thought to myself when I read that, I just, I've been in meetings all day. I'd love to hear you comment on that because that's kind of the thing. It seems like the more we're aware of other people's success and you look at people like Elon Musk or people who are really, I'm not saying this about him, but there are people out there who are really willing to sacrifice everything To be uber successful, [00:13:00] which creates this, I think, constant feeling that I'm always running behind and I'm chasing a carrot that's moving.
[00:13:09] Yeah. You think about it, Michael, when you and I were. We're starting in our careers. We actually did not have the optics that we do today into what other people were doing. We couldn't see other people's victories. You know, today everybody sees everybody's victories and it's only the highlight reel.
[00:13:24] Nobody's putting out there on Insta or Tik Tok or face gram, the low light reel. Very rarely does that happen. That's like, well, you're sharing way too much. Go see a therapist, but everyone's going to share with you. How their businesses afforded them the opportunity to go on this vacation, or how they just landed this big account, or, you know, it's just real time, 24 7, whether you want to see it or not, it's coming at you.
[00:13:46] So, it's very difficult to find a place of contentment if you're playing the competition game. Like, competition and contentment, I don't think they go together. Hmm. And contentment is much different [00:14:00] than complacent, right? You know, complacent is a problem. If you're complacent, it means settling. That's the way I see it.
[00:14:09] Content means enough. I have a very fond memory of my dad's dad. So my dad's dad, Jewish man. He was just a beautiful human. And during the Passover service was one of the traditions in our, our homes. At the end, he would always say dayenu. And for any of you who have been to a Passover Seder, you know, there's a song dayenu.
[00:14:35] And I remember him explaining to me as a young man, what dayenu meant, and it meant sufficient, sufficient. And he would always say dayenu, and it means sufficient. Or content. Where I'm at in life, sufficient. Every day I want to be content. That doesn't mean that I don't want to strive for excellence. That doesn't mean that I don't want to strive to make an even [00:15:00] greater difference in the lives of more people.
[00:15:02] It means that I'm not being driven out of a place of scarcity. I'm being driven out of a place of opportunity and out of a burden to help and an opportunity to make a difference. But that's a never ending opportunity. So coming to this place from an identity perspective of where you know who you are, whose you are, why you're here, and knowing that Dayenu, contentment, is this place of no longer being in scarcity and no longer feeling like you can lose.
[00:15:34] It's not competition that drives you, it's passion. I like what the Apostle Paul said, if we have food, and covering with these we shall be content. That's a really low bar because, you know, you think about it, you don't need to want what you don't have. You need to want what you do have. Right. And to me, that's sort of the definition of contentment.
[00:15:55] It's enough. Yeah. So, Daniel, how do you know [00:16:00] if you're a high achiever, so to speak, you know, that kind of personality, if you're being driven by scarcity or if you're being driven by abundance, like really practically, how do you know? The way we were designed is that we have a dashboard and that dashboard signals red, yellow, and green lights.
[00:16:21] we're experiencing a sense of peace. If we're experiencing a sense of joy, if we're not stuck in our own home of mirrors, where all we see is ourself and who we're not, chances are in that space, we're being driven by contentment. If we're dealing with a lot of fear, if we're dealing with a lot of anxiety, if we're dealing with a lot of angst, anger, frustration, Then there's a chance we're being driven out of competition.
[00:16:50] Now folks don't hear me saying that anxiety or depression or those types of things can just be fixed by you becoming content. [00:17:00] There's very real physiological, psychological impacts. There's traumas that have happened to many of us that can create anxiety. So I'm not talking about people in those.
[00:17:10] Situations, but I'm saying if you have been fortunate enough to not have that as a driver, not a, a trauma, not something that is just genetically passed down, well, then what you want to do is you want to just ask yourself, what is driving you? What that is driving you? I think it's one of the best questions you can can do some reflective work on, which is what drives me and what will success look like for me?
[00:17:37] At the age 80, which is why we start people when they build their life plans with writing their eulogy come to grips today with something's going to be said about you and that exercise just helps you to figure out what matters most. I was going to ask you about life planning, because I think that was a real inflection point or turning point.
[00:17:59] In [00:18:00] my dad's work with you and tell me what function that serves from your perspective and, and how it helps people to go from being in a driven place to being in a more passionate place. Well, I've been doing that for years and years and very rarely do I ever come across anybody who's ever spent a day putting together a plan for their life.
[00:18:23] So as Michael and I unpacked in living forward, most humans will spend more time planning their annual vacation or their wedding than they ever will be thinking about, well, when we are married, what kind of a life do we want to have? But we're going to have a four hour party that's going to kick butt and we're going to spend 50 hours figuring it out.
[00:18:41] So the impact that having a life plan can have on us from a place of contentment, as well as leadership effectiveness, how we lead ourselves impacts everything. Self leadership always precedes team effectiveness and team effectiveness always precedes organizational impact. And that's a [00:19:00] core principle of ours.
[00:19:01] So how we lead ourselves enables us to be present When we're where we're at with whom we're supposed to be with. And that's the gift nine times out of 10, if we don't have a life plan and we don't know what matters most. And if we're running from one thing to another, well, there's a little microprocessor in the back.
[00:19:24] That's always reminding us of who we're not with and what we're not doing because we're just so busy. But what a life plan does is it helps you to. Really come to grips with what matters most and then to allocate the appropriate time to those accounts, those relationships, those interests, so that you're accumulating net worth in all areas.
[00:19:45] And it helps because you feel like you're winning less regret. And that's really what it's all about. How do we get to a place in life where we don't have a ton of regret? Do you ever get pushback from people about having a [00:20:00] life plan? Personally, I never get it from my clients because I think they know that kind of going in that that's part of what we're going to do, but I do hear it online from people.
[00:20:10] There's a good argument against life planning. You know, I'm not saying life planning is the be all end all for everybody. I don't believe that. I think that life planning helps people who have a tendency to want to accomplish a whole bunch in a whole bunch of areas, and they have ten A 1 priorities. You can't have ten A 1 priorities, but they all feel like ten A 1 priorities.
[00:20:34] So I will always just diffuse the combative argument or the debate on whether life planning is the way. I will say it's been the way for me. My wife will tell you it's been the way for me and our family. And I have tens of thousands of clients that have been coached by our firm that have said it has made a tremendous difference, including you.
[00:20:54] Now, what I will want to understand in that conversation is why does somebody think that it doesn't [00:21:00] work? What about it would cause you to believe that? And then I want to learn. And oftentimes, depending upon the person's overall life theology, they may just think, you know, you're trying to control everything and what happens when things don't work out.
[00:21:15] And just because you write it down, do you really believe it's all going to happen? And, you know, on the spiritual side, well, where are you leaving any space for God? There's all sorts of people that will come at you with differing perspectives. And I welcome all of them. And I acknowledge that many of them are well founded.
[00:21:30] But what I say is, If you're living your life and you feel like you're attending to what matters most and, and you have it prioritized and you feel like you're adding value in all the areas of the life that matter most, I say fantastic. I'd love to learn from you and I don't need a life, you don't need a life plan.
[00:21:46] You're good, right? So that's the way I approach it.
[00:21:57] When you talk to people about [00:22:00] Life planning or you, you actually take them through your process, which life account or life domain Do you find that people struggle with the most? I would say one of the most difficult ones in in the United States for people has to do with health Hmm health is one that can just be a force multiplier If you get that thing figured out the energy you get from having victory there As you both know, it carries over and it spills over into all the other accounts.
[00:22:27] It's so tangible. You feel better. You're getting that flywheel moving, but for many, it's difficult. You know, you can be working with a busy executive who has a partner at home and, and the busy executive, as you're educating them on the health account and maybe giving some principles or some tips and turning them on to new learning.
[00:22:46] Well, it doesn't mean they're partners on. on the same page. So if you don't see it the same in the same house and you're sharing meals together, that can be very difficult. You know, if you are one who runs from meeting to meeting to meeting, and you've really never really figured out how [00:23:00] to make food fuel instead, it's just kind of a sustenance thing.
[00:23:05] It can be difficult. I think the other one that can be very difficult is the marriage account. It's difficult, you know, for many people, by the time there's the trust and intimacy that they experience with one of our coaches. By the time many of them share, they may on a scale from one to 10, 10 being honeymoon phase, seven days a week, a one being, you know, keep sharp objects away and attorneys are trying to keep us in our corners.
[00:23:29] Uh, if you've got people that are five or less, that can be a little difficult, but, uh, we we've helped them and, uh, it's an area where you, you see great victory, but those are two areas that I think many people struggle with. That's good. One of the things that I have appreciated about knowing you and certainly knowing you through my dad is just how important both of those areas have been to you.
[00:23:51] And especially the marriage one, you know, you always talk so lovingly about your wife, Sherry, and the life that you guys have built together and your [00:24:00] kids and your grandkids and, and all of that. I love that. And I think that it's pretty hard to imagine having the double win if you are married without that being.
[00:24:10] A place where you're thriving, you know, not to say that there's not ups and downs, not to say that there aren't hard seasons. Of course there are. It's real life, but just kind of like your health, it would be difficult to imagine having the double win if you're not attending to your health, you know, and you're dealing with a lot of avoidable problems and even crises that are caused by neglect as opposed to other factors, I'd love for you just to share what you've learned about high achievers.
[00:24:39] And marriage and what some of the principles are there. You were talking before we got on, just to prompt you on this a little bit about kind of your own practice in different seasons around date nights. And I thought that was a really great. So make sure to include that too, because I know people love it.
[00:24:52] Yeah. So probably the first thing for our listeners to hear is that Sherry and I are 37 years married, 49 years in one [00:25:00] another's lives. And the times where we have been really distant, where our marriage has been below a five. No chance can I experience the double win because when that happens and when When I have felt that she doesn't respect me Or when I have felt that I actually am a magnet that is on the wrong side and i'm pushing her away It feels like all the oxygen has left the room and I can't breathe.
[00:25:21] So my Sensitivity to marriage connection and intimacy is so freaking important when I blow it nine times out of ten Or maybe more if she's listening. All right, 99 out of 100 times. It's me. I I uh, You I feel like I can't breathe. Some of the rhythms and rituals that Sherry and I have instituted over the years came out of pain points.
[00:25:45] So earlier we were talking about Monday lunch dates, and Monday lunch dates was an opportunity for Sherry and I to go and have a logistics lunch meeting. We would do that on Monday because [00:26:00] we were at a point where our marriage was Definitely less than a five. And she just had expressed her feeling of not being important to me.
[00:26:09] Now I'm growing a company. We have not only our, at the time we had. Three older kids, our youngest little baby girl. And we had a meth addict living with us and it was our second one. And you guys know our story. We've had, you know, 10 plus kids live with us over the years that were not our own. So having a, a management meeting.
[00:26:29] Was birthed out of her saying she didn't feel all that important to me and not like a priority. And she made comment that I found time somehow to work out every single day at lunch. So that has been a building champions ritual. You know, workouts at lunch has always been a part of how I So what I did was I said, well, how about Monday being the first work day of the week?
[00:26:55] I don't work out at lunch and I take you on a date and let's just go out and and have a [00:27:00] date where we just figure things out. So that then during the week. We can have a night date and we don't talk about all of the logistics and we can actually have a date of intimate connection and then that can take all sorts of forms.
[00:27:14] So those Monday lunch dates, some of them were after a counseling session and we definitely didn't want to be with one another. We've had those seasons. Some of the lunch dates were so awesome that I was immediately calling my assistant saying, clear my date. day. I don't care if Hyatt's on there or not.
[00:27:33] I'm going to hang out with my wife all day. And I had some of those Mondays. So Monday management dates can turn into intimate fun dates. And, uh, I've got a lot of rituals and rhythms around marriage. I love that so much. Um, especially because so I'm probably about in that season where you may have been back then, you know, with kids, similar ages and, and, you know, the logistics of running a family and a whole life outside of [00:28:00] work is next level.
[00:28:01] You know, just candidly, I would say that's something that Joel and I have struggled with is how do you sort of. Get all that stuff taken care of because you're not going to just do it like over coffee in the morning when the kids are waking up, you're trying to get everybody out the door to school.
[00:28:14] Like it's too crazy and you don't have enough time to just kind of get your head in the space. And so it can be so easy to default to that. Let's say you have a date night, you know, that's winning right there that you would have that on your calendar. It's fantastic, but it can easily become a logistics conversation and a meeting and not a date.
[00:28:32] But I love the idea of splitting it into two and having one of them during the daytime. So you're not like trying to find a babysitter two times in the same week or anything. I mean, I think that's a real breakthrough because then it's like you can both just relax and be present with each other at the fun date because you've handled all the other stuff.
[00:28:48] And I know just as a wife and a mom, as well as a CEO, if I don't have that stuff taken care of, if those loops are all open in my head, I can't be present. It was a great strategy. [00:29:00] So I'm very grateful for it. I think I mentioned to you, uh, Sherry, just yesterday was explaining the power of it to our oldest daughter who's 34 and she's the mother of a four year old.
[00:29:11] And, uh, Sherry was explaining to her how beneficial that was for our marriage. So that was a big one in depending upon where people are. From a financial resource perspective, don't think that it needs to be all that expensive. You can do dates in such creative ways. Last night we watched two of our granddaughters for our son and his wife.
[00:29:33] And on Sunday nights we get to watch them. They go to evening church and they go out on a date night and. They came home last night. We were at their house. What'd you guys do for your date? And just creative, you know, they went to a whole foods, they created a little picnic basket, and then they went to this cool office setting.
[00:29:51] That's part of the building champions and set path offices where there's a really nice living room. Kind of set up. No one's there at eight at night and they had their [00:30:00] date night there. You look at just the budget Perspective Sherry and I had date nights sitting on the tailgate of the truck sitting out at a park We did dates in so many different creative ways So regardless of of where you're at on the budget side You just need to make it a priority because if you don't you just need to imagine dates and getaways Are adding logs to the fire.
[00:30:23] If you don't go on them, the fire will go out. Chances are the flames going to go out. So you need to keep doing the things that created the flame in the first place. You stoked the fire, you dated, you wrote love notes, you bought flowers, you held hands, you did all those things. Log on the fire, log on the fire, log on the fire.
[00:30:41] And then for some reason, many of us, we get married and we just think that, Oh, okay, now all we need to do is turn the gas on and thing will burn forever. No wrong that I had a funny experience a couple of weeks ago, Gail was off with her college roommates. They get together once a year and so she was flying in and I was going to pick her up at the airport.
[00:30:59] And [00:31:00] so one of my clients, Hillary Walsh said to me, she said, Well, I think you should definitely park your car, take flowers and go in and meet her when she comes out of security. Now, I'm thinking to myself, that's enormously inefficient. If I take extra time, I'll have to get there extra early, and I'll just meet her at the curb.
[00:31:21] And Hillary says, I'm telling you, nothing will say she's a priority like that. So I thought, okay. Now, I was a little bit fearful because I knew I was going to be setting precedent here. So I can, I can never pull up to the curb. Ever again. So I went in and bought flowers. Okay. But you have to talk about what the flowers look like, cause this is kind of like a funny part of the story.
[00:31:45] Well, by the time we had this conversation, I had this conversation with Hillary as a coaching session where she was coaching me. The only place I could go and get decent flowers is that they have a actual flower shop at the airport. I bought them at the airport. But this is Nashville. Don't forget. This is in Nashville.[00:32:00]
[00:32:00] The vase was a ceramic boot. And so I said, well, do you have anything other than boots? She said, It's Nashville. Gail was so surprised when she, I was kind of hiding back in the shadows. So she came through security. And I literally had to walk up to her parallel and say, Hey babe. And she was like startled.
[00:32:19] And I mean, she just was on the moon. And I thought, wow, I need more of that in my life. Well, we, we could have a whole, a whole counseling session on that, my friend. So, uh, I want to go there, but I'm going to let you continue to drive on the double win. Good job on buying the flowers. Excellent. And we get paid for this coaching stuff.
[00:32:39] Oh my gosh. I just love that they were in the boot. You know, it just makes it, um, Even better. It's funny because I was walking through my flowers before I saw Gail. There was this little group of TSA workers. And when I walked by, they're like, you know, Oh baby, who are those for? And I said, my wife of 46 years.[00:33:00]
[00:33:00] And they were like cackling and having fun with me. And it was, it was just great. So good. I want to turn the corner just a little bit here. And I want to talk about leaders thinking of themselves as coaches. Now you've written an outstanding book on this topic that I've referred now to both of my masterminds.
[00:33:21] In the last couple of weeks, it's called becoming a coaching leader. Go to Amazon and order it. If you're listening to this, we'll have a link in the show notes. But when did it occur to you that leadership, even if you're not a professional coach is really about coaching. Thank you for your kind words and the role you played in my writing that book.
[00:33:42] So folks, what you don't know is when I first started coaching Michael, he was a group publisher at Thomas Nelson. So as my client, His job was to find authors and to help them to write wonderful books that were going to sell lots of copies. And he encouraged me to write a book and becoming a coaching leader was that book.
[00:33:59] And that [00:34:00] came out in 2007. So it's been out there a bit and Michael, I really appreciate the encouragement. So. What caused me to write that? And what caused me to believe that the best leaders were coaching leaders was really my own experience. When I was in my twenties, I was given my first management leadership role at 23.
[00:34:18] I had really no education in business or in management, no college degree. And for some reason, I was very, very fortunate because I had a real passion and desire to learn from other people. And I was successful as a consultant in the mortgage space. So as a mortgage consultant or a loan officer, I was given an opportunity to become a branch manager.
[00:34:39] And my method of building a branch that went on to dominate in that area in Los Angeles, dominate in the company. We did just a lot of business. It was all the result of me meeting with the best of the best who worked for the competition. I would go into different markets. I would find out who is the absolute [00:35:00] best.
[00:35:00] I would meet with them and in my meeting with them, I would really learn about them, what drove them, what were their goals, what were their interests, what held them back. And then the meeting would end and I would end the meeting with my next meeting date and time scheduled. And I would just think about what can I do to help them to succeed.
[00:35:18] And my belief was if I can add more value to them than their current manager does, well, then they're going to want to come work with me. And it worked. Many of them did. So take that. And then you, you start that at the age 23. By the time I left there at the age 30, I was running all 17 offices throughout the Western United States.
[00:35:37] It was a wonderful career. I took a one year sabbatical at the age 30. And when I started building champions, champions. With this whole desire to coach business and life on purpose, what I. realized was that in that one year sabbatical, a lot of the people that had worked with me, the mortgage company or that [00:36:00] I had been associated with during those times, they still called me for input.
[00:36:05] They were still looking for that coaching. So, you know, you fast forward again another decade and there was an organization where the leaders wanted to bring what I was doing for them as their coach at Building Champions. They wanted to learn how to do it for their people. So, they were the first licensees of, you know, Our content and we turn them into coaching leaders and the results they got were undeniable.
[00:36:33] Those coached versus their non coached peers outperformed their non coached peers in four quadrants by anywhere from 22 to 66 percent coaching leadership led to results. So that has been a conviction of ours. It's been a main, um, a main product of ours. It's a way we help many leaders. It's just to. To understand how you can really build a wonderful organization if one of your priorities is helping your people to be the [00:37:00] best they can be and helping them to be wildly successful.
[00:37:02] I think it's a crucial concept because when I was in my early in my career. We referred to people that were leaders as managers. And when you manage something, it's about control and the systems and the processes, and even the people are part of the cogs in the machine. So then at some point, somebody to develop the language of leadership, which was a big improvement.
[00:37:27] You know, it doesn't mean that you forsake everything about management, but leadership is a different kind of thing. And then there was this spin on it. I think Ken Blanchard probably talked about this the most about servant leadership where you're there to serve the people. But what I think is so ingenious about your language about the coaching leader is immediately it shifts from what could people do for me?
[00:37:53] How can they serve me as the leader to, Oh, my job is to add value to make them [00:38:00] successful and for them to realize their potential. And I've had this conversation almost by coincidence because we were together two weeks ago, maybe. But when I'm talking to some of my clients, They're still kind of caught in one of those old, older paradigms.
[00:38:15] And I've just said, you know, especially when people want to get rid of employees that they haven't coached. And I said to him, I said, look, you've got two choices. Either you can take the raw material that comes through the front door and coach them up and develop them into amazing teammates, or you can spend a ton of money and try to find those rare, rare people that have it all together when they come through the front door.
[00:38:40] And that's the very expensive. Way to do it. And it's also not as satisfying, but to me, the measure of your leadership is, can you take the raw material that walks through the front door and can you turn those into extraordinary leaders? And that's where the coaching leader comes in. Okay. I have a very practical question because there are probably people listening who are [00:39:00] like, this all sounds amazing, but I'm not exactly sure practically what this would mean.
[00:39:04] So Daniel, can you explain maybe like in a one on one context, if you're a leader and you have a direct report, And you're having a weekly or a bi weekly one on one. How is it different if you are a coaching leader, as opposed to just like a regular manager? Yeah, it's a really great question. And it's going to connect to my most recent book as well.
[00:39:25] In 2020, I had the seven perspectives of effective leaders come out where one of the perspectives is the perspective of the team. We have to have a core belief as leaders that our people. No, a lot more about the business in their area than we do. So we developed this sense of intentional curiosity in a one on one.
[00:39:48] When you're a coaching leader, you demonstrate this intentional curiosity by asking your teammate. How they're doing, where they're winning, where they're having challenges, what resources they need, where are they [00:40:00] challenging themselves, where are they stepping up, what would success look like in the week or two or month ahead if they, you're a thinking partner with them, you're not managing and telling them what to do, you're actually calling them up and helping them to see who they can be and expecting that and then engaging in a conversation that will enable them to go from here to there.
[00:40:23] So it's a lot of questions. Management meetings are a lot of telling. Coaching sessions are a lot of asking. Great coaching leaders are disciplined with coaching one on ones. They take copious notes. They follow up. We've developed the whole coaching leader system around that book. We've got an e course on it at Building Champions.
[00:40:42] Our coaches coach our clients through it. It's a strategy, Michael, that It's pretty crazy because, you know, I wrote that 2005, 2006, it comes out in 2007, and I think it's more needed today in 2024 than it was back then. Absolutely.[00:41:00]
[00:41:04] Another book on that topic. That's really good just to drill into what Daniel is sharing. And I probably need to read it every week. Is the advice trap or the coaching habit, both of them by Michael Bungay Stainer, and they're so effective. I don't know if you've read those Daniel, but those are really good.
[00:41:21] Um, they're going to go on my list. Okay. You're going to like him. Okay, so how do you, Daniel, how do you combat that impulse to do more talking than listening? Tell me this happens to you too, is what I'm really saying, okay? Oh gosh, yes. It happens to all of us, especially when we're maxed. Like if I'm redlining and I don't have patience, probably not going to be a great coaching session.
[00:41:43] So preparing for my one on ones, reviewing everything that we're going to talk about, understanding and believing what the end game is, what's the desired end result of the one on one. The desired end result of all one on ones is that our people are better [00:42:00] equipped to do their job, to win in business and in life as a result of them investing 30, 60, 90 minutes with you.
[00:42:06] That's always the outcome. They're better equipped. They have more belief. They have more competence. They have more skill as a result of time with me. Isn't going to be because I come in and I start telling them what to do. I'm going to ask and care and help them to discover. Now there will be times where I will be directive.
[00:42:24] Some people will not believe in the strategy because they're, they're going to think, well, what do you do with the teammate? Who's not performing? Well, manage them, manage them, be clear with them. You're not performing. I want you to perform. Do you believe you can perform? This is what performance looks like.
[00:42:40] What's going to be required in order for you to go there? I want you to understand the consequences of failure. Let's be clear right up front. That's management. Coaching is, Wow, you just had a tough management meeting. Alright, now what do you need to succeed? How am I going to help you? Do you believe you can do it?
[00:42:56] Alright, let's resource this thing. You should go talk to so and so. [00:43:00] Read this book. Hey, practice this. I think one of the things I hear a lot from either people I coach or my own direct reports, I certainly felt within myself, although I think I've developed some ability over time, but is the courage to have the first part of the conversation.
[00:43:15] Because a lot of times, dad, to your point a few minutes ago, when people are ready to let somebody go and you ask them, have you talked to them about it? Usually they'll say yes. Sometimes they'll say no, but usually they'll say yes. And then when you say, okay, what kind of conversations have you had? It's very clear that they've kind of danced around the issue or, you know, they haven't had the direct part of the conversation.
[00:43:37] So the person doesn't really understand that there's a problem. You know, they, it's like, they think what's happening, the leader thinks what's happening in their own head and heart is somehow transparent and it's not, you know, they've only got like, whatever you said to them is what they've walked away with and your body language and your tone and all that.
[00:43:52] But then to be able to flip it and not have it be all management to be able to go into coaching. I mean, that that's like Jedi [00:44:00] master level. I led our, our building champions team meeting this morning. So every Monday morning at seven 30 for. Two plus decades, everyone shows up on a zoom screen. And back before zoom, we used whatever apps we used, you know, the old polycoms and whatever there was web, web X's and all that stuff, because our coaches are spread throughout the country.
[00:44:22] And we always start off with the same thing. We share a bit of vision. And then we connect it to the business and then we do a business update and then we have some optional time. So this morning I had the privilege of sharing and I might do that a few times a year now, but this morning what I shared was I shared the part of our vision where I talk about team and I just talked about how.
[00:44:43] At this stage of my career, what I'm most proud of, what I'm most excited about is when I hear how our team is being used to create transformation in the businesses and the lives of our clients. And over the last few weeks, I had some pretty highlight [00:45:00] moments, real like career watermark, amazing. And it was the result of what other people on the team are doing.
[00:45:08] They're better than I am. I have so many people on my team that are better coaches. They're better. They, they coach leadership. They coach executives. They coach CEO mentor. They do all of that. And they're better than I am. I think that is really what needs to be at the heart of a coaching leader is it's not that you're just comfortable with your people being better than you are.
[00:45:29] You actually desire it. Like, I want that. Mm. I think there's some wisdom to that. You mentioned the seven perspectives of effective leaders. And when everybody, somebody puts a number on something, if our listeners are like I am, I immediately want to know. Okay, what are the seven things? So what are the seven perspectives?
[00:45:49] Because you've kind of referred to them. But could you just walk us through that? Yeah. And whenever you put a number on something, uh, if you're my wife, you sit there and you say, well, what makes you think there's only seven? [00:46:00] I love you, Sherry, but there's a story in that. It used to be the five perspectives.
[00:46:04] And, uh, well, what makes you think there's five? It's five. I know it. And then all of a sudden I was like, ah, shoot, there's six. And, uh, Oh, you should write a book. Yeah, I'm not going to write a book. This doesn't feel right. And then finally the seventh hit and seven's perfect. And that's the number. So here's the premise of the book.
[00:46:18] A leader's effectiveness is determined by just two things. Let's not overcomplicate it. The decisions they make and the influence they have end of story. I'm not talking about whether you're a good leader or a bad leader. I just want to talk about whether you're an effective leader. It will all be measured by the decisions That you make and the influence that you have now in today's fast moving, psycho crazy VUCA world we live in, you better have intentional curiosity.
[00:46:44] If you're going to elevate decision making and influence, if you, as your husband, Joel says, Megan, if you think you have all the knowledge, well then you are not learning. And if you're not learning your toast. Perspective one, if you really want to make great decisions and have maximum influence, you demonstrate [00:47:00] intentional curiosity in current reality.
[00:47:03] If you don't understand the current reality of the business, you are going to become an ivory tower, disconnected leader that everybody talks about and they create workarounds because you just don't understand it, how business works. Leading indicators, lagging indicators, the historical high points and low points, the real levers that need to be pulled in order for the business to operate and how it's doing, not just now, but in the year ahead, the year ahead is part of current reality.
[00:47:31] As is the past perspective two is long term vision. If you don't have a vision that is clear enough to build plans from and compelling enough to cause you to want to stretch, well, then you don't have a destination point. So Michael, like you and I talked about with living forward. Current reality is the starting point.
[00:47:51] Vision is the destination. That clear and compelling vision gets shared over and over and over again to remind people of why we're risking, [00:48:00] why we're aligning, why we're changing, which is always difficult. That vision should lead to a better destination. It's 3, 5, 10, 20, 30 years down the road. You look at those, that creates the opportunity gap.
[00:48:15] Because current reality is here. That's where we're headed. Well, there's an opportunity now to improve perspective. Three perspective, three or strategic bets. What bets are grounded in current reality. They're resourced. Well, we understand the business they're grounded here, and then they're anchored in that long term vision.
[00:48:35] So now we see clearly where we're headed. So we don't drift. When you look at how many businesses fail in the execution of strategy, it's because they're not grounded in reality or anchored in a long term destination. Strategic bets. They're disproportionately resourced. They've got a leader. There's a rhythm.
[00:48:52] They've got investment. There's gates that you know that whether you're succeeding or, or failing, uh, you need to readjust. [00:49:00] Perspective four is the perspective of the team. The curious leader is asking the team for their input on reality, on bets, on the business. They're always curious. What do you see?
[00:49:12] What do you see? Some of the best leaders I ever worked for when I was young and some of the best leaders that I've ever coached of organizations that are mega in comparison to, you know, us, gosh, they're just curious people and they want to know what the team thinks. They're always asking, they're always evaluating.
[00:49:28] They're wanting to know about the thinking of, of the teammates. Because they're not only thinking about today, they're thinking succession in the future. The next perspective is the perspective of the customer perspective five. If we lose this perspective, we're toast. The perspective of the customer, what does the customer need?
[00:49:44] What do they think? How do they experience our product and service? How's their business challenged? Where do they see opportunity? Where are they going to be two, three, four years down the road? And how do we need to evolve in order to best facilitate what it is they're after? Whether it's a B2C business and it's a customer, [00:50:00] where are they going?
[00:50:01] You know, a consumer, or whether it's B2B. That used to be part of perspective one. That was part of current reality. And then when I realized some of my larger clients and the devotion, the CEO and the executive teams have to spending time with the customers, I said, that needs to stand on its own. So we went from five perspectives to six.
[00:50:19] So that one was the 6th, almost complete. Then came the 7th, and the 7th happened in one of those shower moments, truth. Sherry's out, just outside of the shower in the bathroom, I'm in the shower, and I'm reflecting on the day before. And I'm thinking about being with the chief operating officer of a multi billion dollar organization, Global, the day before, and the day before that with the CEO and chairman of a company headquartered out of Europe, 30 billion plus, and I'm just Thinking about the blessing of those two days.
[00:50:52] And what was it that these two leaders wanted when they spent their two days with me? They wanted a thinking partner. [00:51:00] They wanted the perspective of the outsider. The seventh perspective, great leaders. They have an outsider or outsiders to process with, to think with where there's no skin in the game.
[00:51:12] Board members have skin in the game. Executive team has skin in the game, a mentor, a coach, an advisory group, a mastermind, et cetera. Those can all be outsiders. That really all they want to do is just help you to think better and succeed. Every great leader gets the perspective of the outsider. Seven perspectives.
[00:51:32] That's it done books written. So there you go Those are perfect. I'm glad you persevered till you got all seven perspectives because that last one is huge And I think what a lot of unselfaware leaders do is that they assume that the feedback and the information that they're getting from their direct reports is 100 percent true.
[00:51:57] Now, it's not that anybody's trying to, usually, [00:52:00] trying to mislead them. It's just that they have a different perspective. And they've got, how we'd say in the South, Daniel, is they don't, they have a dog in the hunt. Yep. Right. And the board can't see it either because everything is basically mediated through the CEO.
[00:52:16] And that's why, by the way, one of the challenges sometimes of therapy or coaching is all the coach or the therapist hears is what's mediated through the client. So you don't really have a 360 view unless you decide to go deeper. But I, I love that perspective of the outsider. Guys, you need to buy this book.
[00:52:35] There's seven perspectives of effective leaders. Thanks man. Daniel, I, I feel like this has been five minutes long and I want to go for, you know, another hour or more, but alas, here we are. We'll have to just do a part two another time. Let's do it. Okay. So we have three questions that we ask all of our guests about the double win.
[00:52:55] And this is kind of a lightning round, but at the same time, these are big questions [00:53:00] and I'm so excited to hear your answer. So the first one is what is the biggest obstacle for you in this season of your life in getting the double win? In 2020, when the world was a little nutty, I started a not for profit called set path.
[00:53:16] And that not for profit was to help young adults. Uh, we saw young adults falling apart and we saw it. So just the difficulty for teens through mid twenties to really finish, um, that chapter and move into the next chapter because of all of the restrictions and the wackiness, right? So we started set path to bring life planning and mentorship to young adults for free.
[00:53:38] So it's a not for profit community benefit. And two of my sons left their furniture business to help me launch it. It has been a labor of love. Uh, we're always needing money. Uh, we had a technology partner that unfortunately was unable to deliver our scale vehicle, which was an app. So it is requiring energy from me and it creates stress in my life, [00:54:00] creates real stress.
[00:54:00] So that will sometimes consume me and rob me from being present. It can also impact me as the CEO of building champions. And see the CEO of building champions is a role that's transitioning. I have a team that's just so great. I really do believe that once the set path thing, we get it figured out. I think the double win is just a bit easier, but that, that would be my answer right now.
[00:54:24] Thank you for that. Because I think we've all got something like that in our life, you know, no matter what season you're in. And so it's helpful to know that you can do it imperfectly and still be striving for that and working toward it, even if it's not, you know, the ideal because of whatever, whatever else is going on.
[00:54:41] And that really flows well into the second question. How do you know personally when you're getting the double win? Another Hebrew word, shalom. On my life plan for the last two years, I've had them labeled shalom and aloha. And so you [00:55:00] with us, you know, over the last few years, spending more time with me being able to surf, which is always part of my double win and in Hawaii, Aloha is love, right?
[00:55:10] It's this deep love. And uh, I love the word and that's why I love the people of, of Hawaii so much. I love that. Shalom is peace. And it's this general word for this great sense of peace. It's a fulfillment, uh, word. And. I wake up grateful. I have to exercise the gratitude muscles. It does not mean that there's not pain.
[00:55:32] It doesn't mean that there's, you know, not a child dealing with a marriage issue or kids that want to have a baby and there's miscarriages or, you know, sick grandbabies because mold in the house. Megan, you know that story or, uh, financial pressures because business has been hard. All of that happens in my life.
[00:55:51] And I don't think the double win is an absence of problems. I think the double win is a perspective that enables you to be [00:56:00] intentional in the areas where you can control and where you can influence. And for me, my faith is such a core piece of who I am. Uh, it's a sense of connectedness and being a vessel that is used for goodness and and loving people as a result of how I'm loved.
[00:56:19] And, That whole relationship. Love it. Okay. Last question is what's one ritual or routine that you rely on to do what you do? My morning routine will make or break me. And my morning routine is a, uh, it's my vacation every day. So I get a vacation first thing in the morning. I don't have to wake up early. I get to.
[00:56:42] And I get to wake up early in the morning and then I get to do my little rituals of, you know, Michael and I were talking to these young guys about it. It's, you know, coconut pulling. It's ACV, turmeric, anti inflammatory, sunrise elixir drink, first thing in the morning. It's uh, [00:57:00] Yerba Mate tea. It's stretching, a lot of yoga in the morning, face down, it's prayer.
[00:57:05] deep, repetitive prayer that I've been praying for decades that has actually really impacted me. For me, uh, it's my faith. It's time in the word. I love that. I sauna occasionally after the sauna. I'm in a very cold body of water, which was yesterday. I'm not today. That morning routine, a few hours before I engage with other humans, if I can get 90 minutes minimum and two hours ideal, It just fuels me up and I get to be who I want to be to everybody that crosses my path throughout the day, most of the time.
[00:57:38] First of all, that makes me excited for when I'm in a season where mine can expand. I'm not sure about what you said at the beginning, I didn't understand about half of that, and I might not be alone, you know? We'll save that for another day, but I'll have my own There's no booze in it. There's no booze in that morning elixir, so just don't worry about it.
[00:57:54] Just to be clear. It's all good stuff. Well, buddy, thank you so much for joining [00:58:00] us. You are such a joy. And every time I leave your presence, I feel inspired. And I think that's a testimony to the quality of your leadership and more importantly, to the character of who you are. So thank you for being that.
[00:58:15] Your words mean the world to me. I really appreciate it. I feel the same about both of you. I love you guys. A privilege to get to share with you. And my hope is that somehow in our crazy conversation, somebody, uh, all, everybody listening, find something that they can implement and it helps them to experience the double win.
[00:58:43] Okay, Meg, what were your biggest takeaways from that conversation? I cannot believe how fast that went. Do we say that every time? We probably do. Oh, we probably do. My biggest takeaway, first of all, is that we needed two hours instead of one. I mean, I just felt like I was soaking it up. A couple [00:59:00] things. I think the conversation about marriage.
[00:59:02] Was fantastic when he shared with us privately before we press the record button, this idea of the Monday date lunch, this, the need to kind of. Pull apart the logistical planning of your life. If you're married from the romantic part, I thought such a great thing because I have so fallen into that many a date night where Joel and I end up talking about, you know, the football recruiting plan or the kid that's struggling academically or the project that's due in science next week.
[00:59:31] And I love the idea of constraining that to a meeting and then having this, this time for us just to be together. So personally, I took a lot away from that. I just love it. I think my biggest takeaway was this perspective of an outsider and having a thinking partner. And I thought, wow, that's exactly what coaching is, but this is what I love about getting together with you, getting together with the team, is this collaboration.
[00:59:58] And I thought, you know, [01:00:00] that's frankly for me and my journey through AI and learning to use it, that's become that for me, kind of a thinking partner, but it's much better with people. Yeah. And so, you know, I just, I'm just asking myself the question, how many outsiders do I have in my life? So that I get that perspective, because it's very easy to get insular and siloed into your own little bubble.
[01:00:22] And I think I've mixed like three different metaphors there, but you get the idea. But I just, I just think he's got so much wisdom. And for me, my highest value in life is wisdom. I mean, literally, it's number one on my core values list personally, is wisdom. But it's because of people like Daniel. Well, if you were to ask me to describe him in one word, that's the word I would use.
[01:00:44] I didn't want to say this on the podcast because I thought, Oh, it'll make him feel awkward. And now it's going to make him feel awkward when he can't even respond to it. And he's just listening to it here. But you know, if you died tomorrow, I think he would be my first. Phone call. Really? Uh, I mean, not, not to like, I don't mean like, phone calls to family and that kind of thing.
[01:00:59] But [01:01:00] in terms of like, just somebody that I could talk to about how to handle things and the transition and all of that, because. One, I feel like he knows and loves you so well, but number two, because he's so wise. And I just feel like the guidance that he would give me would be thoughtful and measured and grounded, which is just a great example of a coach.
[01:01:24] I mean, I think that he's a person who gives leadership a good name. And I think we're living in a time where leadership does not have a good name in many ways, where we've kind of forgotten what it really means to be a leader. And I think the, the wisdom, the humility. The curiosity, the commitment to the development of others, you know, those things that he talks so much about, you know, when he was talking about being a coaching leader and these seven perspectives, it really inspires me to live up to a standard of leadership that we don't see enough of anymore.
[01:01:55] And I think part of it is, is when we don't have good examples and we don't know what to strive for, and we just [01:02:00] become selfish and narcissistic and, you know, self serving in ways that are just all too common. I mean, we've seen it a gajillion times. It's in the media and with celebrities and everything else.
[01:02:10] So true. You and I were talking before we got on about the way that Daniel expresses his faith. Now I get that all of you are not people of faith or we don't share the same faith, but it's okay. I just like the fact that he expresses it in a way to me, that's very winsome and doesn't put any side, anybody outside the circle and he's just got it dialed into that, that right level.
[01:02:35] And we were talking about it, our fly fishing trip, kind of our philosophy of that. Cause I. share a similar philosophy, but I think he does it better. I love that. You know, he's bold without making you feel threatened or in your face. Well, and I love how reliant he is on God for wisdom and how much he partners with God in his work as a leader.
[01:02:58] You know, it's like he's really [01:03:00] walking hand in hand and also, you know, on his face praying because, you know, I think as leaders, Whether you're leading a whole company or one other person or your peers, it's a weighty thing to have influence over people. It's a weighty thing to have the responsibility of decision making, especially in today's world that's increasingly complex and the stakes continue to be higher.
[01:03:22] And so there's something about that to me that is really inspiring and instructional to not try to do it on my own. Well, guys, thank you so much for joining us for this episode. If you could do us a favor. And go rate the podcast, hopefully five stars. And if you could also write a review, I know that's asking maybe a lot, but it only has to be like 50 words, maybe even 25 words.
[01:03:46] And I know it'll take a couple of minutes, but it will so help us. In spreading what we consider to be a movement, a burgeoning movement of people who are committed to winning at work and succeeding at life. People are talking about it everywhere. [01:04:00] And we love that because we think that people do best at work and at life when those things are intention and when they're integrated one with the other.
[01:04:10] So again, thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.