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Tell Me More is a weekly podcast hosted by Katy Reed Hodges and Luke Stehr, where they unpack the Sunday sermon with Dr. Dennis Wiles. This podcast is designed on the premise that Dr. Wiles always has more to say than can fit in a 35 minute sermon - so we have fun discussing it here each week. We hope that in listening you are educated, encouraged and more connected to the pastor and his teaching!
Welcome to Tell Me More. My name is Luke Stair. Today, Katie Reed Hodges, doctor Wiles and myself have a really great discussion about discerning the will of God. It's a good episode. I hope you will listen through all of it, but remember on June 23rd, tell me more live is happening in the sanctuary.
Speaker 1:Sanctuary. So put it on your calendars for June 23rd. It's gonna be a great time. Thanks for listening, everyone.
Speaker 2:Welcome to this episode of Tell Me More.
Speaker 3:Are we starting already? Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:Where we have started already.
Speaker 3:Okay. Good. Sorry.
Speaker 2:We're all 3 here this morning, and it is Monday morning. So it's me, Katie, you've got Luke, and the reverend doctor Dennis r Wiles. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:The title today.
Speaker 2:We're gonna talk about a few things today, but you're gonna hear the phrase Urim and Thuram.
Speaker 3:Thummim.
Speaker 1:Thummim. Yeah. Urim and Tummim.
Speaker 3:Urim and Tummim.
Speaker 2:We're gonna fight about 2 very obscure old testament words, And then we'll talk about more practical things. So here we are. Let's do it.
Speaker 3:I like it.
Speaker 2:Let's do it.
Speaker 3:I love it.
Speaker 1:So as we start
Speaker 2:Yeah. Where where are you gonna land us? What's what's sip 1?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I've had a question. I think you've already been asked this question as well.
Speaker 2:Why?
Speaker 1:Why did you choose this passage? It's not an author Yurim. Preached text.
Speaker 2:Tureem.
Speaker 1:Tureem.
Speaker 3:Tureem.
Speaker 1:Or Yurim. And Thummim. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Thummim. Thummim.
Speaker 1:There's no
Speaker 2:r in that last.
Speaker 3:There's no r.
Speaker 1:There's no r.
Speaker 2:I gotta get that. I gotta get that.
Speaker 1:This is not a commonly preached text.
Speaker 3:Really? You mean you haven't you haven't heard this? You're whole
Speaker 1:Raise your hand if you've heard a sermon before this Sunday on the Urim and Thummim. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's a Mostly weddings and funerals.
Speaker 1:No. Yeah. This is a common funeral type. It is a very obscure passage of scripture. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Katie and I were talking. I don't even think we covered it in our old testament classes in seminary.
Speaker 2:So I didn't.
Speaker 1:You're not talking about this much in a graduate level course on the old testament. I don't know if you covered it in your seminary classes on the old testament. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But he went to school for 13 years.
Speaker 3:That's true. We did.
Speaker 1:So, I studied missions
Speaker 2:on the
Speaker 3:Bible. And there you have it. Well, you know, it, first of all
Speaker 2:Those go together, by the way, missions in the bible.
Speaker 1:They do.
Speaker 3:I would say, you know, it's just leadership of the spirit of God. Like I've told you before, that's how I land on these texts.
Speaker 1:Well, ask more about that later. Right. But practically Walk me through the thought process that brought you
Speaker 3:to the. Is this like, tell me more. Is that what you're asking me? Tell me more about
Speaker 2:how you got.
Speaker 1:What happens in doctor Dennis r Wiles' head?
Speaker 3:Well, you know, first of all, when I was preparing for, this year So go back to July. And, decided to be more intentional about covering the various genres of literature in the scripture throughout the course of a year. So I wanna make sure that we looked at the law and the prophets and the writings and, the old testament. And so, I just was, you know, praying about which passage from, the Pentateuch was I going to use. And, well, Exodus is to me is just such a foundational story for us and understanding redemption and God's revelation of himself.
Speaker 3:And I feel like we do Genesis a lot, not not just we at First Baptist, but just in general, Genesis is just such a go to
Speaker 1:Yeah. Even for kid a kid's age. Yeah. Just nice kids.
Speaker 3:That's right. Personal stories. Yeah. Creation. I mean, my goodness.
Speaker 2:It's captivating.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And so I just found myself drawn to Exodus. Well, so I I I decided, alright. Here's what we're going to do. We're gonna do exodus, in the spring.
Speaker 3:And then when I began to dive a little deeper, I just laid out the spring in front of me on on my kind of preaching calendar. And so we all know that this time of year includes things like mother's day, so parent dedication, high school graduates, college graduates, kind of family type things that are connected to some level. Obviously, coming off the heels of Easter. So I really debated within myself. I actually laid out 2 different preaching plans for the spring.
Speaker 3:One of them was more of a kind of a chronological take on the book of Exodus. The other one was a little more topical, and so I landed on the more topical one. So once I did that, then I began praying through. So what would I like to address on each of these Sundays given where I felt like our church was going to be? What's what's gonna be the ethos of the moment, if you will?
Speaker 3:And, in in somewhat of a fascinating way, one of the ones that I landed on was a high school graduation and thinking about, students that are at that point in their life searching for the will of God, trying to discern what is God's will for my life. When I hear that often when I visit with, you know, kids of that age, college, you know Yeah. Making this another career. Just just that an initiation, if you will. And, and so, you know, I'm and so I just been had I just been reading through the book of Exodus, a couple of commentaries on the book of Exodus.
Speaker 3:And, actually, another another path I thought about pursuing was more of a missiological take on the book of Exodus. So I decided to include that at least as a part of the journey. So we did talk about missiology early in
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:This in this journey. But anyway, as I began searching and just praying through it all and reading through the book of Exodus about the will of God, well, I landed on this text for a couple of reasons. 1 is because I'm, it's it's just interesting how it captivated me because I had not spent a whole lot of time just historically on the vestments of the priests, the high priest in particular. And so when I found myself on this text, obviously, the the, Urim and Thummim, because I was saying English, Luke can correct us. That's always intrigued me, you know, just has particularly when you're wearing this breastplate or breastpiece of decision or judgment.
Speaker 3:It's kinda fascinating. It's a little mystical, magical,
Speaker 2:doesn't it? Yeah. It feels somewhat interesting. Mhmm. But what what really stopped me was,
Speaker 3:was the passage right before it, to be honest with you. When I was just reading through the the fact that the priest had these 2 stones, 2 onyx stones on his shoulders that had the tribes of Israel inscribed upon them. And, I don't know. That just that just stopped me when I thought about well, so the high priest is supposed to figuratively carry the burdens of the people of God on his shoulders that he bears the people of god into god's presence as to be a memorial, before the lord. Mhmm.
Speaker 3:Well, I got to think about us and our role and what we're supposed to be about and how how we're supposed to have the burdens of the people of God kind of on our shoulders, so to speak, kinda helping them carry them. And, so I kind of paused there and I thought, well, I'm not sure how what I wanna do with that. And then I just kinda kept reading. And then when I got to the breastplate of decision, I just thought, okay. I've never actually preached a message on Urim and Tummim in Hebrew, never have.
Speaker 3:And I thought, you know, I'm I'm just gonna do a little more homework, did a little more homework about how Mhmm. God used whatever these were, these stones, whatever.
Speaker 1:Which is really unclear. It's just
Speaker 3:like it is in decision making in the life of Israel. And I thought this is the Not
Speaker 2:just unclear in the passage. Right. It's just unclear. It's unclear.
Speaker 1:Well, the words themselves are not The words
Speaker 3:are not
Speaker 1:super clear. Exactly. Urim is related to light. Sumim bears some semantic similarity to the word for cleanliness or purity, but beyond that, it's Right.
Speaker 3:Or maybe even truth.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But those could be metaphoric. Right? I mean, those could just
Speaker 3:Correct.
Speaker 2:The object lessons on
Speaker 3:That's right.
Speaker 2:Discernment.
Speaker 3:But then I as I it was funny. Soon as I got to the end of that passage, I was sitting in my study and I said, that's it. That's my springboard to the will of God because I thought that is so obscure. It would captivate maybe the interest of these kids primarily and also all of us. And then it would lead me up in
Speaker 2:a path to go ahead and say, well, how do you just send them over? You certainly can't sit there and think, well, I've heard this a 1000000 times.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Right.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm just zoned out. I mean Yeah. You can do that for a lot of reasons,
Speaker 3:but that
Speaker 2:can't be one of them. Not not yesterday. Right. Not yesterday.
Speaker 3:And and so here's what was fascinating. What led me to the seals of the universities is I just started doing some research on where do you find Urim and Thummim in English or in Hebrew? Where do you find it anywhere? Well, obviously, you know, I'd already done my homework in the biblical text.
Speaker 2:I found every places that pop up in the Hebrew. But it's only, like, 4 verses or something. Yeah. I mean,
Speaker 3:it's not many. And I'm reading this article. It says something like, well, in in the, in Yale's
Speaker 2:seal So basically nowhere.
Speaker 3:Right. You can't find
Speaker 2:And then Yale seal.
Speaker 3:I mean Yale seal. And I was like, it's not in Yale seal. That's that's not true. So then I go and I Google Yale seal. Nothing.
Speaker 3:There it is in Hebrew. You've got to be kidding me. Why in the world would that be in Yale? Well, that led me down
Speaker 2:a a rabbit rabbit rabbit tram incident.
Speaker 3:Well, what does everybody's seal have to say about their their calling as a university? You know? So the first one I googled was Harvard. I thought, well, let me just go that's the oldest university in America. Let me go see what it says.
Speaker 3:Well, I'll be doggone. It's got, you know, Christ and the church. And I'm like, okay. This is really fascinating. I mean, I knew Brown University was established by Baptist.
Speaker 3:And I also knew a little bit of the history of Harvard, that it was to train preachers originally.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:But still, the fact that it's emblazoned, you
Speaker 2:know,
Speaker 3:on their original shield, if you wanna call it.
Speaker 2:And it still has I mean, I don't know. It still has a divinity school.
Speaker 3:It does.
Speaker 2:But even that It does.
Speaker 3:It does.
Speaker 2:Is drifted quite far from
Speaker 3:but what was fascinating was ministers. Another rabbit hole that I went down was Yale's interpretation of Thummim are too mean. They interpret it as truth. And so looks and veritas, and so I thought, well, that's interest. I'm not sure that's is that actually right?
Speaker 3:Well, that led me down to what does that word Thummim mean? Well, like you said, purity.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Perfection.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Maybe truth. You can kinda it kind of has some the word for truth is connected with somehow. And I thought, well, the
Speaker 1:It really is a standalone word.
Speaker 3:It's yeah. It's by itself. And so so that just led to this whole conversation within myself.
Speaker 2:We have tell me more. That cannot make it in the sermon.
Speaker 3:Yeah. How am I how am I gonna do
Speaker 2:all of that? Perfectly on the spot, which is an obscure little podcast.
Speaker 3:And then that also it kinda reminded me of, you know, the whole time I was on the board at Baylor, we would have the the statement of purpose of mission of Baylor as regents. We had it actually in front of us all the time, and occasionally we would read it out loud just to remind us that a part of our responsibility was to hold Baylor to its, its core mission, you know, and what supposedly was its core value as an institution. And, so, yeah, all of that was just kind of brewing in me as I was preparing for all this. And then to me, it it it offered me the perfect springboard, if you will, to first of all, try to just show our church some of the mystery of of how this work for Israel, but the fact that God made allowance for it. God somehow made it clear to them.
Speaker 3:You know? So some scholars say, in, like, kind of the latest research that I've read, they they would prefer to refer to Urim and Thummim as light and dark. And the idea that these stones represented light and dark, so kind of a yes and no, if you will. And so when the priest was trying to decide the will of God
Speaker 1:I think there's some validity to that because the root for Urim is connected to the word light used in the very beginning of Genesis in the creation account that God made light. Right. And so So it's possible. There's a good connection there.
Speaker 3:Seems to be. And and what some scholars, at least the ones that are that I read most recently writing about this say, well, evidently, the priest on behalf of the nation would ask for a yes and or no answer. So it wasn't like, you know, answers that that required more complexity. It was more of a yes or no. Go to war, not go to war.
Speaker 3:That kind of thing. And so, therefore, you had kind of light and dark represented with these stones, if you wanna call it. There's a lot of disagreement, though, among Jewish scholars. How many of them there were? Some people think there were just 2, some people think there were more of them.
Speaker 3:Some people think the priest just raised into the breast piece and whichever one he pulled out, you know, that was the, that was the answer. Some felt like you cast them and then you had to read them. But the one I found most intriguing was was how, I saw it depicted in art. There are a lot of Jewish artists that have painted where you have the light emanating from the chest of the priest. So one of them, either the Urim or the Tummim, puts out the light, and that gives the answer.
Speaker 3:And, I just think it's fascinating something that important, something that's mentioned as being at the very beginning of Israel as a nation, something given to the high priest himself, and we're never really told exactly how they used to.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's all the detail we get. Right.
Speaker 1:I mean, the 2 means only to it 5 times.
Speaker 3:Yes. It's an obscure name, first of all.
Speaker 1:It it only happens 5 times. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But, also, its purpose is very important. Like, it's not like, it's designed for
Speaker 3:And, like like, Nehemiah. It's Nehemiah and he says, well, we're not gonna do anything till the priest shows up with the Urim and Thummim. And you're like, okay. Well That's still around. Where where are they?
Speaker 2:And where have they been?
Speaker 3:You know? And then you get to the new testament.
Speaker 2:It's not like it's not like Israel hadn't made any decisions.
Speaker 3:That's right.
Speaker 2:You know?
Speaker 3:And you wonder, so, okay. You get to the New Testament, and, you don't, you don't know what's happened. It's never really mentioned again. And then when you read Josephus and some of these other writers about what's going on in the New Testament era, the Romans actually kept possession of the high priest's robes. So think about that.
Speaker 3:In Herod's fortress, they had a a room where the high priest robes were kept by the Romans, so they would only give them to the high priest at on the high holy days. And it was their way of kind of holding the Jews, if you will, in in prison, so to speak, that the high priest couldn't even go and get his own robes unless the Romans gave him permission. So just imagine the just that how that just had to chafe the neck of the Jews.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean?
Speaker 3:That you couldn't the high priest can't even go get the which which are spelled out in scripture about what they're supposed to look like.
Speaker 2:Indeed too. Very ornate.
Speaker 3:Very fascinating to me, that whole thing. So so I went down so many y'all have no idea how much time I spent my study on this sermon before I ever even got to what I was gonna preach on. You know? Just wondering There's
Speaker 1:a lot there.
Speaker 3:Stuff. You know? And, but I love the imagery also for us as ministers. Mhmm. When the lord said put the names of of the tribes of Israel over the heart of the priest and that you wear that as well so you you carry the needs of the people of god close to your heart as a minister.
Speaker 3:So the all that imagery was very fascinating to me, just thinking about being a pastor and a shepherd to people that you you help bear their burdens and you carry their needs really close to your heart. You know, the I mean, the old testament doesn't necessarily teach, I think, that the heart is the center of the wheel. I'm not sure that you could extrapolate that out from the old testament, but they already did have that saying about with your whole heart.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And
Speaker 3:so that idea that that you carry the people close to your heart. It's just great imagery. You know? And it also helps us understand comes because some people ask me sometimes, why don't why don't y'all wear robes? You know, why why are y'all not, you know, vested like this?
Speaker 3:And and it helps you understand why some clergy in some traditions are. I mean, it dates back to this kind of thing that you were separated from the people because of your calling, not not because of your superiority, you know, but just the calling. And when god called Levi, not because Levi was superior to Judah or Reuben or anybody else, it was just, this is who's gonna represent me, this this group right here. So they dress differently. And so, you know, sometimes you'll be watching, another denomination, you know, Roman Catholic or Orthodox or whoever it may be, and you see all of these ornate vestments.
Speaker 3:You think, what are these people doing? You know, because some people ask me, like, when we go to Rome, you know, you walk past these stores in Rome where the priests and the cardinals can actually purchase their vestments. And I get a lot of kidding in those, because sometimes I'll just go stand up by one of the big windows and, you know, point in one of the robes or the the miter hats or whatever. But, actually, even though we don't do that, and I'm I'm I'm I'm good that we don't, but there is an ancient tradition of that person who's supposed to represent God kind of being singled out among the people, you know? And so but it's to be it's to serve though, you know, is how it should be.
Speaker 1:And in case you're tempted again to think of it being superiority, go reread Levi's story in Genesis. That's
Speaker 3:right. Yeah.
Speaker 1:He's a screw up.
Speaker 3:He is. He's not, he definitely, yeah. It has it's the choice of God, obviously. So, anyway, all of that put together, I thought, alright. This is gonna be a springboard for me to help the students as well as their families and the rest of us start thinking about, well, how do you discern the will of god?
Speaker 3:One of the main points I want to make Sunday was is that it is God's desire for us to know his will. He even made allowances for the whole nation to know his will Right. You know, through through the ministry of the priesthood. So it just says something to me about god. But also, another thing that and I didn't really put this out much Sunday morning, but it it also speaks to the holiness of discovering the will of God.
Speaker 3:That it's not just something you do flippantly. This is kinda on a whim. You know? Oh, yeah. What do you think about this god?
Speaker 3:That's not how you that's not the way it's supposed to be approached. You do it in in humility and reverence and knowing that the will of god is truly what matters most. So so that's how I got there. You know?
Speaker 2:I love it.
Speaker 3:This coming Sunday, you know? A teasing. This coming Sunday, I just praying about who we are as people and how hard it is sometimes to, to steward what god gives us. And there's an incredible story in the book of Genesis of the generosity of all these people, you know, and and and I know it may sound we'll talk about this next week, but, you know, you think, well, they were slaves and everything they have was given to them. Well, you can look at that at a different way.
Speaker 3:They're not used to having anything, and now they've got something. And the last thing they're gonna do is give it away. Right. You know what I mean? Why would you take anything from we've never had anything.
Speaker 1:Well, that's next week.
Speaker 3:That's right. You know? So that to me is
Speaker 2:Bubbling out. It's bubbling out.
Speaker 1:Get ready.
Speaker 3:I've already started reading, getting ready, thinking about generosity and just No.
Speaker 2:Next week.
Speaker 1:Next week.
Speaker 3:Okay. Sorry.
Speaker 2:Next week. K. This week
Speaker 3:Will of God.
Speaker 2:Sorry. The mystical stones. Crystal magic. Oh, wait. Not only that.
Speaker 3:The beautiful imagery of these
Speaker 2:stones talking about next week. We're gonna
Speaker 3:those stones, though, that make appearances in Genesis and in Revelation. You know what I mean? All of these different descriptions of stones, which also hard to translate from Hebrew to English. What what they what were they all? But somehow, another, all that beauty
Speaker 2:that God
Speaker 3:has put in creation
Speaker 2:specific it's ornate. Yeah. It is. It's so
Speaker 3:fascinating. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's interesting.
Speaker 3:It really is. And so I love all of that. So, yeah, it's I just got I got enamored with the excess 28 and so decided to share some of it with y'all.
Speaker 1:Well, we're glad you did. So since you're advocating that we go to the nearest hippie crystal shop and buy a couple of crystals to sew to our
Speaker 3:place. Recommend it.
Speaker 1:How should we discern the will of God since crystals don't seem to be the answer?
Speaker 3:Right. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But what about, like, dice or, like, signs and wonders?
Speaker 1:All of these, it turns out we're at one point biblical methods.
Speaker 3:We're discerning the will of God.
Speaker 2:Like a fleece.
Speaker 3:Think about casting lots or Matthias and Gideon putting out fleece. And I mean, there's, you know,
Speaker 1:so, but as people indwell by the holy spirit,
Speaker 2:Something new has happened.
Speaker 1:There it is. Something new has happened. Something new
Speaker 2:has happened.
Speaker 1:We don't need crystals. We don't need dice. We don't need fleece. No. Because God's spirit lives inside us to guide us, to come alongside us.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. How do we discern when the spirit is leading us to do something? I'm gonna put you on the spot. I don't know if you have any stories of a time that you have discerned God's spirit leading you to do something. I know you, so I know you do have those stories.
Speaker 2:Well, we've talked in here about particularly your call. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:That's a story you've told us. So, k, you can't use that one.
Speaker 3:Well, you know, I'll I'll give you another one. I was pastoring in, back in Alabama. And, one of the one of the things that was brought before me in those days, they wanted to do some renovations to the, the campus, primarily the sanctuary, and they wanted to also do some other things. It was, it was really my first of size capital campaign.
Speaker 2:I was
Speaker 3:a little nervous about it, Just kinda new to the congregation still. And, so we prayed about it. I met with our leaders, and we talked about it. And, we brought in, a team to help us think through it on architectural firm and all that. So finally, we landed on just as a group deciding, okay, this is this is what we need to do.
Speaker 3:So we brought it before the the church and presented to the church. And it if I remember correctly, the vote was like 72% in favor and 28% were opposed. Was a pretty significant thing for us, and so I I called a time out, pressed to pause, and I just said, you know, I'm a little, I've gotta check-in my spirit. There's something going on because I talked to enough people to to sense that this is what people thought we needed to do. But, you know, almost 30% of them voted no.
Speaker 3:So our committee leadership agreed, so we paused and decided we would just pray. And then I said, after some time in prayer, I just felt prompted by the spirit to ask some people if they were willing, who voted no, to tell me why, which I've never done anything like that before. I don't think I've ever done anything like that since, actually. But I just sensed in my spirit as a pastor. I wanted to know, did we what did we miss?
Speaker 3:What what what's the problem? And I had other leaders saying things to me like, well, this is a majority, vote church. You know? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Kinda like move on.
Speaker 3:Yeah. We got it. Goodness. Let's go. We got 70 70%.
Speaker 3:Let me feel good about it. And I was like, the real vote will be when people start giving their money and putting their investment in this.
Speaker 2:But the spirit within you Yeah.
Speaker 3:Said I just had this prompt. So I just said something, I think it was on a Wednesday night. Any of you that would like to visit with me about your reservations, and I'm not I'm not calling you out, and obviously, I'm not in any way insinuating you can't vote in your conscience here. My goodness. You know, it's not like, that's going to happen.
Speaker 3:Well, I had some people take me up on it and handful of them made appointments to come and see me. And and what I heard, the refrain I kept hearing was, we've just spent so much time spending money on ourselves. We've just we've just so often we've just spent money on ourselves. We've just continued to focus on ourselves. Okay.
Speaker 3:And I didn't view it that way because I felt like this was going to be a gift to the next generation. It was going to help bring that campus kind of up to date, so to speak. So, I kept praying and and, reading the scripture. And, and for some reason in that season, I kept finding myself going back to the the mission of god, particularly the great commission in the new testament. And I thought it was just, it was a little unusual that I found myself drawn to those texts when I was praying about a building campaign.
Speaker 3:You know? And then one one morning, I was in my office at the church and, and the door closed, and I was just praying about it all. And I felt like the lord said, well, just give me a tithe, and it'll be okay. Just just give me a tithe and it'll be okay. Give me a tithe, you know, and I just felt impressed.
Speaker 3:But you know what? I'm a I'm gonna pitch that idea. So I called a meeting of our leaders of the of the effort and I said, what if we set a goal and we say it was gonna cost I've already forgotten what it was y'all. I don't know. Let's just say $5,000,000, whatever it was.
Speaker 3:What if we say, okay. Here's what we're going to do. Every penny that comes in for this campaign, we're going we're going to set aside a tithe and we're going to do something missional, some type of great commission act that our church maybe already believes in or maybe is is new to us. And we're going to tithe our gifts that are given to this building campaign. Well, the committee unanimously agreed.
Speaker 3:They said that is a great idea. And they said, you know, pastor, that feels like it answers some of the concern. So I pitched it before a couple of people that had shared their no vote who said to me, well, if you bring it that way, well, I'll vote yes and not just vote yes, I'll give to it. You know? Because that way I know, yes, I'm doing something I think my church needs, but my church has decided to give a tithe of it though to something else.
Speaker 3:So we took that back eventually before the church, and it was like 98% voted for it. And then we did it, and we ended up giving this huge gift to missions. We started a couple things and we're already doing stuff in Africa in those days. It made some significant gifts to some missional interests that we were involved in. And, and I just I just know that was the will of god.
Speaker 3:I know that was because I felt like the lord was leading us to to renovate this campus. It was something that hadn't been done in many, many years, and it just warmed up the place that the sanctuary needed that, and it's and it's beautiful to this day still there. I mean, the last time I was there, it's just beautiful and rich, and, I love the architecture of it. And, but also when I was sitting in the last time I was there, it's been several years ago, I was sitting in the room thinking in this room right here contributed, like, half a $1,000,000 to a particular cause that this church believed in that wouldn't have happened had we not made that decision. So, so that's the time when I really felt impressed by the spirit in a way that that I had it wasn't like I I had that in my mind.
Speaker 3:It wasn't a, you know, something I'd read somewhere. Why don't you do this? Or that it was just me reading the scripture, praying, and sensing God prompting something inside of me. So
Speaker 1:I wanna ask you a few questions, not because I'm trying to cast doubt on you hearing from God, but because I want to open up a conversation that I don't know we have often in Baptist church. How do you actually know when it's God speaking to you or God leading you? Because I think when we have high school seniors or college students or young adults go, well, how do I know God's will for my life? At behind that question is really this question of how do I know when it's God speaking to me and not just a feeling or anxiety or something that I'm thinking? How do I know the difference between an impression of the Holy Spirit and
Speaker 2:or And just just something else. Right.
Speaker 3:Well, that's a great question. Here's what I'd say for me. One is, as I said Sunday morning, I'm I'm just a firm believer in just daily opening your life up to spiritual truth. Just every day, just like, you you ingest, what you need for your body every day. I think you have to do that every day for your soul.
Speaker 3:So, I don't think there's there's just to me, there's just no replacement for engaging with God in in just regular habitual, time in the scripture and asking the Lord to speak to you through it because it's his word. It's powerful. And I believe that it, it you know, the scripture says that that the word of god's like it's it's alive, it's dynamic, you know, it it, it pierces you in some ways. So that's the first thing you just, you know, just being consistently in the scripture and it to me, that's how God that's how God works in my life that, I'm just drawn to it and I know I need it. And so even when I don't when when I think I'm in a hurry, if I've got too much going on, there's there's not a day that where I'm not in the scripture.
Speaker 3:You know, this is I'm just gonna read the scripture And so usually start it's usually first thing in the morning. I used to it late at night. I've changed a little bit. I've gotten where I do it more in the mornings now just for me. And I have to be careful since I'm y'all's pastor.
Speaker 3:I can't I can't use the bible to only go and find things for y'all. You know? There's plenty in there for y'all, but it has to start with me. So I start there. So just like when that situation happened, I just happened to be studying, Matthew and Acts.
Speaker 3:I was just reading through that on my own. And so here I am in the middle of this conversation about a sanctuary renovation and what's going on in the life of my church, and I'm reading Matthew 28 because I was I was already in the middle of that devotional time with the
Speaker 2:Lord.
Speaker 3:And I kept feeling drawn to it and and a little bit unsure of it, to be honest with you. So, I think that's one thing. I think helping our people know that there's there's a reason why the people of God have historically read God's word. It's just it shapes your mind. It creates a fertile ground, if you will, for the Lord to speak.
Speaker 3:You see examples of how God works, you know, and you you get truth that starts to shape and bend your will, hopefully. So that's one thing. I would also say I intentionally, though, ask the lord to speak though. I asked the lord to tell me what am I supposed to do about this right here? I'm asking you to impress me.
Speaker 1:Yeah. God actually wants to talk to you.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. I
Speaker 1:think we forget that.
Speaker 3:Yes. And so I've never heard God speak audibly, you know. I'm not saying that he doesn't or that he wouldn't, but he's never done that in my life. But he does just impress things in my spirit. And what I will typically do is I'll you know, it depends on where I am in life.
Speaker 3:Sometimes I will actually write those down in my little journal and, and then I will look at it and I'll say, lord, is this from you? You know, I'm writing this that this is what I'm feeling impressed on. Is this from you? And I may have to sit on it for a day or 2 and go back and revisit it and keep asking, what is this from you? Is this from me?
Speaker 3:Is this from you? And, is this consistent with how you've led me in the past? Is this consistent with what I think the scripture is teaching me? And and if this is from you, will you embolden me in it? Make it even more deep, deeply woven into who I am.
Speaker 3:If it's not from you, then just let it just let it go. Let the impression go. And what I found the lord in my life to do is whenever I ask him that question, if this is from you, then make it even more ingrained in me. When I sense that happening, I've just learned. I go with it.
Speaker 3:I just believe that's how god speaks to me. And so I get that that sense of, okay. I've tested it. I've asked you. Is this really from you?
Speaker 3:I've looked at it, you know, and, and so that's when I that's when I go. And it now, you know, I've heard preachers talk about how, you know, it's like a there there's some place in America, I think it's America, I'm not sure where it is, where you have all these, you know, lights in a harbor. You know what I'm talking about? And the ship has to back in the day before we had GPS and all that, you had to
Speaker 1:Light it up.
Speaker 3:If you could get all those lights where it looked like it was one light, well, that was kind of a safe passage. I'm not sure if that really even exists, but I mean
Speaker 1:It might.
Speaker 3:I don't know. Heard it. So well, if you get the the word of God and the wisdom of God and the counsel of God's people, if you can kinda get those to line up and maybe also with the the the history of your journey with God, well, then you've got kind of a consistent path
Speaker 1:to follow.
Speaker 3:That makes sense.
Speaker 1:I do like that you brought up lights. Stell Swollard, who we've talked about before, is a spiritual formation writer. He writes about in discernment and hearing God's voice. He has three lights of discernment. And so when he talks about when these align, that's kind of when you know that it's God is likely at work.
Speaker 1:And so it's your circumstances. So what's actually happening in your life, impressions of the spirit like you've talked about, and then passages from the Bible. And so when I've coached college students, young adults on knowing God's will, it's first of all, it's never going to be against scripture.
Speaker 3:That's right.
Speaker 1:Never.
Speaker 3:We talked about that. Yeah. For sure.
Speaker 1:But then you also want to watch and see how circumstances in your life line up. Just like in this story you told about working with this committee, the circumstances just kind of converged with the impression you were receiving. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And then when I shared it with a few key people that I trusted and their immediate reaction was, you know, that's a great idea. We we need to try that. And then we But but just Yeah. So so, yeah, circumstances also the lord sometimes in my life, he has he has arranged things where you look at it and you go, wow. Okay.
Speaker 3:This seems to be what I'm supposed to do. I think where you gotta be careful with that one is that sometimes in our minds we think that means it's the easy path.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:And that's where I think you gotta be a little careful. It's not always the easy path.
Speaker 1:Oh, no. No. No. You know? And I I ask
Speaker 3:be the harshest, hardest path, actually.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's just bad theology.
Speaker 3:Yeah. The thing could be really hard.
Speaker 2:If it's God's will for your life, it's If it's impressed and it's biblical power.
Speaker 3:Whatever. Sometimes you gotta stand your ground a little bit, you know.
Speaker 2:Jesus was suffering service.
Speaker 3:So that's what I love about Psalm 1 when it when it says blessed is the man, the old King James says that blessed is the person singular who doesn't stand with sinners or scoffers or mockers, and they're all in the plural, but that one person is singular. So the idea that the conviction and the wisdom and the leadership of God gives you what you need to actually be able to do what you feel called to do, even if it's in the minority.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, if I could share a story, I mean, my call to this church, I initially, applied for a different position. I felt called to this church, did not get that position. I remember getting off the phone, going and talking with my wife and still feeling, you know, I don't know what the timeline is. I don't know if it's a month or 2 years.
Speaker 1:I I still feel like we will eventually be at First Baptist Arlington. I don't know when circumstances I think to the outside, I would look like that door is closed. This is a no. It's not gonna happen. But lo and behold, things happen.
Speaker 1:Things are brewing. So just because it doesn't look maybe on the outside.
Speaker 3:That's right. So yeah.
Speaker 2:So question for y'all. What do you think about the the will of God? You know, there's a quote that says something like the will of god is not a tight rope to be walked, but a garden to be played in. Mhmm. That makes sense?
Speaker 2:Like Mhmm. The the difference between
Speaker 1:I'm not gonna fall off. I'm plunged to my death if I get
Speaker 2:Well, yeah. Should I go to Baylor or Hardin Simmons?
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:You know, and circumstances look right. And at some point, maybe you just have to pick 1. You know, you get people can get really caught on the cusp of There's always an wrong decision.
Speaker 3:I think what you're alluding to is there's this idea that God has a plan, a
Speaker 2:one plan for your one singular
Speaker 3:in the whole rest of life.
Speaker 1:The whole itinerary
Speaker 3:plan b plan c.
Speaker 2:Right. And it is it is stepping stones across the river. And if you get the wrong one, you're swept away and you're done.
Speaker 3:I disagree with that. That.
Speaker 2:And I'm sure. Like, I mean, you can get into the specifics of, like, is there the one, you know, that you marry? Is there the one? Or is it more the posture of this kind of honor god with everything you do? You know, love the lord your god with your soul, love, and strength.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. So I've given you a broad spectrum of belief on this, but, I mean, what do you think? Where is it? Obviously, the if you missed it, you're done. That's that's just bad theology too because that means God's done with you and he doesn't have any redemption or forgiveness.
Speaker 2:But
Speaker 1:And that God is not that strong that I could thwart his plans by Right. Making the wrong choices.
Speaker 2:Because I think people can get really caught and almost paralyzed by indecision
Speaker 3:For sure.
Speaker 2:When I think sometimes there's more of a wherever you are, honor God with what you're doing.
Speaker 3:I I I would say I think there are occasions, instances, and people where there are some some calls from God that are just so specific that they have to be answered. You know? I think that's probably more the exception than the norm. So, for example, you know, you're if you're trying to develop theology as you should from a biblical perspective and you say, okay. I'm reading about Saul of Tarsus.
Speaker 3:Well, the only way to come to faith in Christ is to be struck blind while you're on your path going somewhere else. Well, okay. That that is not the norm.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:This was a singular call to a person who was actually gonna become one of the most influential humans that has ever lived. Okay. So but I can learn though from Paul that when he did get the call, he responded in obedience and began a journey of being humble before the Lord and following the Lord's wisdom. So I would say that there are I think there are some instances where Moses, obviously, Abraham I mean, there are there are some specific, calls from God that I think are a little bit unique. But I think for the most part, though, it's more what you just said.
Speaker 3:It's us being postured correctly, finding ourselves in the presence of god, and then trusting that god's grace and his care and his sovereignty is at work in our lives just like it
Speaker 2:is in
Speaker 3:the world, and so it's not like you're gonna fall into plan b. No. Unless you choose sinful paths, that's a different conversation.
Speaker 2:Right. And that's not what I'm
Speaker 3:referring to. If you're saying
Speaker 2:I'm gonna go to.
Speaker 1:I mean, they're gonna go to. They were good, God, glorifying. Right.
Speaker 2:There's 2 jobs. You know, you've interviewed. There's 2 jobs.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:They look the same. Your gut, you search the scriptures, it still feels like you could honor God in both camps. Right. Sometimes you just have to choose 1 That's right. And glorify God with all you're doing in that world.
Speaker 3:Best you came with the light you have. So I
Speaker 2:think another ditch sorry. I didn't mean to skip that. I think it's really important, though, for our people.
Speaker 3:For sure.
Speaker 2:I think it's a I think it most most of our life is spent not in these big, who am I gonna marry? What because if it's just, who am I gonna marry? What What school am I gonna go to? What job am I gonna have?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Then you're done.
Speaker 2:You could think by 28, you've arrived and you don't need God anymore. Well, that's absolutely wrong in every single way, and you've missed it. And so and but I think the other is do whatever you want. Mhmm. God bless him, you know, and that's not great.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Of course. I think
Speaker 2:it's more god in the everyday,
Speaker 3:to
Speaker 2:quote Mark Wade.
Speaker 3:I agree. And I think if you now if you're choosing between right and wrong, well, that's different. But when you're choosing because some people say, well, this is better and best. Even that makes me a little nervous. I I just believe in God's power and his sovereignty and his grace so much that,
Speaker 2:even better and best can be human terms.
Speaker 1:Right. And we're not always good at knowing what's better and what's best,
Speaker 3:right? Yeah.
Speaker 2:That you can get caught in.
Speaker 3:And I think
Speaker 2:your own wisdom
Speaker 3:to you. Sometimes you best discern this in retrospect. You can look back and go, now I see. See how that right there helped to shape me and the person I am. So I think if what I love about this conversation is I'm just hopeful that our people are constantly thinking about the will of God.
Speaker 3:What is the will of God? How do I find it? How do I live fully into it? And not not being anxious about it, but just just doing. Doing the things that you already know how to do, you know, the things that are already there, that are already in front of you.
Speaker 3:God's given us plenty of those. So go out and live today, live today humbly, and live today with your eyes open, paying attention to all the opportunities around you to to be a spiritual person in whatever moment the lord puts you in. Give god that chance. You know, it's like like when like the day that Cindy was driving, leaving work, and we were we were praying, you know, during Ramadan for Muslims. And Cindy said to me that very morning, you know, my life has been so busy.
Speaker 3:Just personally, I just haven't had a chance to have a a meaningful interaction with a Muslim during Ramadan. I just and that's very unusual for me. And that day, she calls me and says, well, an Islamic lady, a Muslim lady, has her car stalled on the side of the road, and she's standing there fully dressed. Obviously, Cindy knows she's a Muslim, and her car is parked up on the median, and she's just standing out there looking lost. And
Speaker 2:Cindy's Cindy's office. Right?
Speaker 3:A block from Cindy's office. And Cindy Cindy was like, okay, lord. Do you wanna just hit me? She shook might as well have a sign that said, Cindy Wiles, please stop. She knows, so which she did.
Speaker 3:Well, that's so now she's got a relationship with this woman. It's ongoing. There's all kinds of things that have happened since then. And so it was being humble in the moment, it wasn't like But
Speaker 2:she's walking with the Lord.
Speaker 3:Life and death decision. Right? She's walking with the Lord and the Lord just put that right in front of her and she knew immediately, this is the will of God. It
Speaker 2:sure does help if you're walking with God daily. It does.
Speaker 3:It really does. Posture.
Speaker 2:Yes. It's a lot easier to discern who God is when you know him.
Speaker 3:That's right. That's right. So anyway
Speaker 1:I think part of that, if you're listening some summarizing thoughts because I know we're running up on a longer podcast, but remember that God actually wants to speak to you. God wants a real relationship with you. So live your daily life like God is real and actually desires a relationship with you. Submit when it feels like it comes. It's okay to sit on something and take a beat.
Speaker 1:Pray over it, think over it, get wisdom, write it down, write that impression down and really pray over it. Or, you know, if you're Cindy and you've prayed for this chance to have a meaningful relationship with a Muslim person and you see one, it's right there.
Speaker 3:Connect the dots. Don't disconnect
Speaker 1:the dots. Don't be surprised if God answers your prayer, but then have the courage to follow through in obedience. That's right. And then stay engaged in scripture because it is God's word to us. It is living active and dynamic,
Speaker 2:and it is here to guide you daily.
Speaker 3:So they move out. Well, see
Speaker 2:you next week. Thanks for listening to the Tell Me More podcast today. You can subscribe to this podcast on your app of choice, or you can visit us at fbca.org to find out more information about the podcast and our church. Thanks for listening. Have a good day.