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Hosted by adolescent medicine specialist Dr. Nicholas Chadi, Healthy Teens is a collection of smart conversations on issues affecting youth health and well-being. A podcast from the Canadian Paediatric Society.
Healthy Teens 2: Bullying in a digital world
Nicholas Chadi: [00:00:00] Humans have a fundamental need to belong, to feel valued and connected in relationships with family, social groups and community. For teens who are actively forming their identity and are uniquely sensitive to peer interactions and relationships, this need is amplified. So what happens when a teen is bullied, making them feel devalued and weakening Their sense of belonging? Is cyber bullying different or worse than other forms? For answers, I spoke with Dr. Tracy Vaillancourt, who has spent her career studying the effects of bullying.
This is the first of a mini series of three episodes on digital health and screen use in teens.
You're listening to Healthy Teens. I'm your host, Dr. Nicholas Chadi.
Among many other titles and accolades, Dr. Tracy Vaillancourt is a Canada research chair in school-based mental health and violence prevention at the University of Ottawa, where she's [00:01:00] cross appointed as a full professor in counseling psychology, in the faculties of education and social sciences. She has long held a research interest in bullying and its impacts on youth mental health.
Tracy, welcome to the show.
Tracy Vaillancourt: Hello.
Nicholas Chadi: So let's dive right in. What is bullying and why do kids bully each other?
Tracy Vaillancourt: So bullying is a systematic abuse of power, and it has a few features, um, that differentiate it from aggression. So all bullying is aggression, but not all aggression is bullying. It tends to be repetitive in nature. It's intentional. The real important aspect of this is it occurs in the context of a power imbalance.
Now, the reason why kids bully is very complicated, so we can get to that a little bit more, but I wanted to just give you a first definition of bullying.
Nicholas Chadi: Yeah, that's great. and maybe you can help us understand what are the rates of bullying in the adolescent population. How many kids are bullies, and how many are being bullied? [00:02:00]
Tracy Vaillancourt: So about 30% of kids and adolescents are bullied occasionally within a month and 10% are bullied ruthlessly every day. And those rates are consistent around the world. So, uh, you can use different ways of assessing it different populations, different age groups, it comes down over time.
So older kids bully at rates that are lower than middle schoolers, uh, for example. But typically we use the rate of 30% and 10%.
Nicholas Chadi: That, really seems quite high. And you mentioned every month. So it's not just an isolated e event. Tracy, thanks for sharing those numbers. And I know you've been researching bullying and mental health for over 25 years. What do you see as the biggest shifts since kids, teens especially, have moved so much of their lives online?
Tracy Vaillancourt: So a lot of people wanna think that the online world is so different from the face-to-face world of children and youth, and it really isn't. Um, most cyber bullying is [00:03:00] actually just an extension of what has happened um, on the school ground or soccer field or whatever, right? So it's like a spillover of what's happening in their day to days.
There's some kids and it's very small percentage that are just uniquely bullied online. But that said, um. It's just kind of another form of bullying, but it just compounds it because unlike you and I getting into it at school, uh, over, you know, the course of a few weeks, um, when it's put online, it becomes permanent and so that, that actually adds to the stress and distress that kids feel and teens feel.
So, it's an extension of face-to-face, but it has a unique, effect on mental health, especially suicidality.
Nicholas Chadi: Hmm, I, I do wanna hear more about that. And, you know, , you've mentioned how cyber bullying and in-person bullying isn't all that different, even though when I think of, you know, bullying in person, it seems like a [00:04:00] public event, kids being called out or being pushed around , and you know, the sense that maybe cyber bullying , is a bit more private, even though private.
Is relative when we think of how youth connect online these days. But do you have a sense, and you mentioned mental health, uh, whether one form of bullying in person versus bullying may be worse in terms of mental health or wellbeing effects on kids.
Tracy Vaillancourt: Um, so one of the things that you said, I just wanna highlight that most kids actually bully in an indirect way, so. Physical bullying declines, um, with age and pretty rapidly, but indirect aggression increases over time, it gets replaced. So physical aggression is replaced with indirect aggression, and that's where you gang up on somebody.
With other peers, you exclude them from the peer group, you spread rumors about them, you give them a silent treatment. So this is really commonly used and it's used across the lifespan. So, um, we would see it in our faculty [00:05:00] meetings. You know, you're gonna see it, uh, in the corporate world. You're gonna see it across adult society.
So that said, cyber bullying does have one unique association that's different from other forms of bullying and that's linked to suicidality. So there is an increased risk of suicidality that's specific to cyber bullying. So not to suggest that other forms of bullying aren't linked to suicidality 'cause they certainly are, but um, it increases the risk of attempting and completing suicide.
Nicholas Chadi: Wow. So that's definitely quite significant. Uh, when we think of, mental health effects and.. , you've sort of alluded to this, how forms of bullying may change, across a lifespan. Uh, but when we think of cyber bullying in itself, how does it typically start?
Are there like early signs we can teach our kids to look out for, um, things we can do to intervene before it comes at them in full force.
Tracy Vaillancourt: So I think taking care of the face-to-face stuff in a sense. [00:06:00] Takes care of the cyber bullying. But in terms of what it starts looking like, it starts with little nasty messages and little nasty comments on somebody's Instagram post or, uh, Snapchat , and a gang up on that. So it's kind of how it starts.
It's not that sophisticated in the beginning where you have somebody who's anonymous and attacking you. Kids pretty much know who's attacking them online. Of course there'll always be some exceptions. Um, it does get more sophisticated as they get older, but the crude form of it in. Let's say grade four to grade six is just these nasty comments and mockery and that sort of thing online, um, in order to prevent it and prevention's like a big word because, we really do a terrible job at even reducing it.
I've never seen a study yet that has. Shown to prevent bullying. Um, it's hard when you see the rates that we have and also it is [00:07:00] rewarded in a lot of ways and we can get into that after. But, um, some things that parents can do is really just monitor their children's peer relationships, make sure that, they're also aware of not just if their kid's being bullied, but if they bully others. We tend to pay.
Really close attention to when our kids are hurting, , or are hurt, but not when they are hurting others. You know, we would go a long way if we were open-minded about the idea that all kids have the capacity to treat others. Poorly and to do something about it if we become aware of it.
Monitoring their social media use would be very important as well. A lot of these things happen and kids suffer in silence. In our studies, we show that, by grade 10, 85% if kids who are bullied are not telling their parents. So I think having a good idea of who they're interacting with online would go a long way.
Nicholas Chadi: Well, and, I'm thinking to myself, it isn't all [00:08:00] that easy to monitor online use. And I'm wondering, are there certain kids who are more at risk of being cyber bullied? Aside from sort of really having a look of what's happening in their online spaces?
Are there, red flags to look out for? Or even risk factors that we'd know would set some kids aside for higher risk of being bullied?
Tracy Vaillancourt: Um, so we used to look at, um, what are the characteristics of kids who are bullied? And we kind of flip that script of avoid that kind of language just because it implies that there's something wrong with the individual. That they've done something to engender this, um, toxic behavior that's directed at them when the truth of the matter is, is that they should be spared from oppression and humiliation and the like, right?
So we really should be thinking about how to change the behavior of those who bully. That said, though, um, you know, some children are more provocative in their behavior and it does. Elicit negative attention from their [00:09:00] peers. It still doesn't make it right. They should never be treated poorly, even if they are dysregulated or impulsive and things like that.
Um, you're more likely obviously to be cyber bullied if you're online a lot. some kids and teens who are more socially motivated tend to get in trouble with their peers. Um, so they're trying to climb the status hierarchy ladder, and that gets them in trouble because there's always somebody that's also trying to do the same thing.
So. I know I'm not like giving you a solid answer here, and it seems like I'm kind of all over the place, but it's just, it's so complicated. Right. And um, I'm just trying to give a really honest response to your question.
Nicholas Chadi: And, and thank you Tracy. I really like what you said about , you know, shifting the language and not pointing fingers at specific risk factors, but maybe more broadly stating how bullying is a behavior that should [00:10:00] be redirected and addressed in all people. Um, in some situations may lead to bullying, and of course, spending more time online will increase your chances of eventually being cyber bullied.
So, so Tracy, I wanna jump back, um, and speak about something you mentioned earlier. Uh, you mentioned how bullying sometimes can be rewarded, but can you tell us just a little bit more how actually can bullying be rewarded or cyber bullying be rewarded if we're focusing more on the online space.
Tracy Vaillancourt: 85% of the time when kids get bullied, there are peers present and those peers play a role and they tend to not, um, side with the victim.
They tend to side with the perpetrator. Online, it's like clicks and likes and re-shares and things like that are rewarding the individual who's treating somebody with cruelty. And that cruelty is what sells. It really is. It's like we've monetized rage, we've monetized aggression [00:11:00] and cruelty online. And so, um, if I'm a young person.
And , I don't have a fully developed prefrontal cortex. I'm looking at this and I think, Hey, like people really like what I'm saying and what I'm doing. They must respect me and they don't recognize that they're actually feared. Um, mm-hmm. Bullying has a problem and it's maintained because it is rewarded and reinforced.
Nicholas Chadi: Hmm. And I mean, that's concerning in and of itself.
And I'm, I'm thinking you mentioned, you know, peers and how, you know, peers and bystanders can even be rewarded if they're, they're, you know, in the context of bullying.
Tracy Vaillancourt: Absolutely, absolutely. It's not something that happens in isolation. The bystanders sometimes reinforce the bullying behavior, which then is so isolating for the person who's being attacked. Um, you know, not only are you being ridiculed and humiliated by this one individual, but there's a gang behind them.
That is encouraging the person who should be discouraged, so that [00:12:00] is problematic. Um, we often turn a blind eye when we should be saying something. You know, we can be apathetic in our response, mind our own business and, um, we shouldn't mind our own business on this topic because it is the ultimate unfair fight.
I said it's a systematic abuse of power. The person doesn't have the capacity to manage this alone, so it behooves us to intervene on their behalf. So being a defender is way better than being a bystander.
Nicholas Chadi: But can you tell us more about the role of peer groups? How can they also be protective?
What's, what's their role? You know, how can young people help young people reduce bullying or help with the issue?
Tracy Vaillancourt: They're really the key to this. Like, so when we look at our best efforts, we get about a 20% reduction in bullying. But when peers are involved and we can engage the bystander, the peer group, then you see that even improving, um, and improving by quite a lot.[00:13:00]
Um, peers are the ones who set the norms, they set the standards, they're the ones who, um, dictate. What is acceptable and what is not acceptable. You would think it would be the adults, but it really is the, the peers who are liking the tweet. I guess young people aren't on Twitter, so let's not be silly, but they're the ones liking the Instagram post and the like, and um, and so they're, they're affording the power.
So if we could harness that and get them to be better citizens, get them to like. Care about their peers more than we would have, um, healthier teens, healthier children, um, and fewer issues with bullying.
Nicholas Chadi: That makes a lot of sense to me and resonates also, I'm thinking as a young person, I probably would listen to another person my age, um, quite a bit for something as personal as as bullying.
And I'm also thinking, so what if you have a peer who's. Actually witnessing bullying, um, a friend getting bullied [00:14:00] or even someone in your class, uh, can you speak to any potential effects that that might have? Just the effect of witnessing, uh, even in the online space uh, someone bullying someone else,
Tracy Vaillancourt: there's
a lot of evidence that shows that witnessing is also problematic too.
The person's health and wellness. As well as their physiology. Um, it's, it's not comfortable to see somebody being treated poorly. You're also learning lessons about, um, power and the abuse of power that are not very good, um, for how you're gonna interact with people in the future. So if you are seeing your friend be.
Uh, bullied online, the best thing you could do would be to take screenshots, share them with an adult in your school community, um, and then reassure your friend that you're there for them, you care about them. Those are the things that you should be doing. What you should not be doing is ignoring it.
What you should not be doing is, taking a video recording and sharing it with others so that [00:15:00] that person can be mocked. That's not what friends do. Friends support each other, and friends defend each other, , and friends would be reporting this information to adults who can help.
Nicholas Chadi: So, so being proactive and, and, and, and kind just generally to try to address the issue.
And I'm thinking now. Do schools have a responsibility to intervene in cases of bullying? I mean, we've spoke, just about parents and how they can monitor use , and you know, I think that's one thing, but then teens spend a lot of time at school and, and, you know, this can come up.
Tracy Vaillancourt: Absolutely. Um, and I'll speak to Ontario 'cause I'm in Ontario. Um, but uh, and just as one example, but every province in the territories have very similar, policies. So in Ontario, it's actually in the Education Act. So they have to do something, they're legally obligated to do something, to, to intervene, and there's a very strict way of how it's dealt with.
So the reporting [00:16:00] obligations there, um, you know. Their approaches that they're gonna use are quite prescriptive and the like. So if a parent's listening to this and they're interested in what Ontario's law is, it's 169.1 of the Education Act in any event. So yes, they're, they're trying their best. Um, the challenging part though is that, schools have a lot of things that they have to manage, right.
And with a rate of 30% and, um. You know, not very good efficacious interventions. Um, there are a lot of kids who are still being hurt, even though schools are trying their best to curtail this issue and to protect students.
Nicholas Chadi: Hmm. So this is all very interesting and it makes sense , with such high rates, it would be unrealistic that, you know, every incident would be addressed. And I'm thinking it's probably a team effort. Parents have a role, but other trusted adults, coaches in other spaces, um, so that we can really get to the [00:17:00] issue.
Tracy Vaillancourt: Absolutely.
Nicholas Chadi: Hmm. Well thank you for pointing this out and it makes me wanna learn a little bit more. And you mentioned, you know, an extreme example like suicide risk and, and some harms for mental health. But more broadly, what are the more immediate threats to a teen's, either mental or physical health? Um, from bullying?
Tracy Vaillancourt: So, and one of the things that like, as you know, we don't use causation quite readily in science, especially in our area. So we tend to not ever use causation, but in this context we actually can use, causation. Study after study have shown that. Individuals who were bullied in childhood or adolescents, um, those scars still remain, that they still have higher depression, higher anxiety rates, higher suicidality. Um, it affects all aspects of their functioning. So it's not just this area of mental health.
It affects, their financial [00:18:00] prospects in the future. Um. It changes the way they see the world.
And this really comes back to the fact that the need to belong is a fundamental human motivator and, um, bullying thwarts that fundamental need to belong.
Nicholas Chadi: That's quite powerful. Uh, Tracy, just thinking that being bullied at an early part of life can cause really all these problems and issues later on through life course. And it makes me wonder, you know, can you speak to, or maybe research has shown, um, how bullying actually may be affecting the brain and how it develops.
Do you have any insights into that?
Tracy Vaillancourt: I do, because I think I've done the bulk on the neurobiology of bullying, victimization. Um, we've done a lot of studies on this, so there's a few different pathways, so sometimes a person has a biological risk. That, um, is then exaggerated because of their poor treatment. And then other times they don't have that [00:19:00] biological risk.
But their biology change is a function of their, the treatment that they receive. And so, I think the best way to explain this would be just to focus on the hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis, so the HPA axis, which is the stress response system. And so studies, including studies that we have done, have shown that.
It changes the way they, manage stress in the future. So what you tend to see is a dysregulation of the HPA access. So they either overproduce or under produce cortisol, and it depends on where they are in their bullying pathway. Um, so at the beginning you you see high cortisol as you would with any acute stressor.
And then over time. They adapt and then you see a downregulation of cortisol and that has implications for inflammation, which then also has implications for cardiovascular disease, cancers, and the like. So , you know, it's pretty scary stuff. This is not a unique, um, [00:20:00] stressor. It's all interpersonal stressors behave this way.
So child maltreatment has a very similar profile. You know, if you are in a family where there's a lot of violence. Um, it's maybe not directed at you per se, but you're witnessing it. That activates your stress response system and then in turn your body needs to adapt 'cause it's really not, um. It's problematic to be bathed in cortisol all the time and for your brain to be bathed in cortisol. And I'll just give you one more, , example of the neurobiological effects. So we looked at this longitudinally, we looked at kids who were bullied, and we looked at the effects of cortisol in their brain because cortisol.
It binds, it's a glucocorticoid receptor site, is what it's binding with, which are found mostly in the prefrontal cortex, in the hippocampus. Um, so this is your areas of the brain that are. Associated with executive functions, but also with memory and learning. So we found that individuals who were bullied in childhood had [00:21:00] higher cortisol.
And this in turn, mapped on to dysregulation or poor memory, uh, specific to the prefrontal cortex and the hippocampus. So we know that kids who are bullied don't do well in school a lot of times. Um, the mechanism has always been thought of as. They're just maybe stressed out and not paying attention, but there's also, a brain-based reason for it as well.
Nicholas Chadi: Wow, there's a lot here
Tracy Vaillancourt: Is this like, am I just going into the weeds?
Nicholas Chadi: Uh, well, I think there's a lot in here , and I'll try to rephrase some things that I take away , from what you just shared. And thank you so much for contributing so deeply to the field and the understanding of what bullying means for children , and adults. Eventually. I'm understanding that bullying affects many parts of the brain.
Um, it affects how, you know, brain responds to, to stress. And this translates into all these. Physical health impacts and mental health impacts, you know, throughout life. Um, wonder, , are there certain [00:22:00] protective factors or ways, um, in which either the brain or outside factors can help young people who've been bullied, uh, recover , or regain maybe the losses that they've had through bullying.
Tracy Vaillancourt: So this is the area that's not as clear. I imagine there's gonna be recovery because we are so plastic as humans, like our, you know, we have neuroplasticity all the way till our last breath. So I am expecting that there will be some. Recovery. Um, it's not been examined though, so I think we need to be thinking about that a bit more carefully.
I know that when I present this information, it's scary to hear, especially parents hear this and they worry about their child's wellness today, but also in the future and what that's gonna mean for them. Um, the reason I do the neurobiology stuff is because I really wanna highlight the effects, not to scare parents, but to [00:23:00] more.
More so to scare policy makers to really prioritize its reduction. So if we, you know, really understood this is not just kids being kids, or a rite of passage, that this is something that can fundamentally alter a person's health trajectory, then maybe we would be more motivated to really do something with our prevention and intervention efforts.
So I am hopeful, but I just don't know at this point.
Nicholas Chadi: So, okay. Well, well let's say I'm a parent. The school calls, my kid is being bullied or, or, you know, bullying someone else. Um, what do I do when I hear that my child or another child is being treated unfairly?
Tracy Vaillancourt: They need to be calm and it's hard to be calm when your kid is hurt. Uh, you know, when my children hurt, I hurt, and it's as if I am. Living the pain directly myself. So I understand that we are not at [00:24:00] our best in terms of advocacy when our children are hurting.. Um, you have a chat with your child. Um, they're gonna have very specific ideas of how, uh, you should manage this and it's gonna be about you not doing anything. And that's the wrong approach. Um, they think that adults are gonna mess it up, and sometimes we do mess it up, but more often than not, when an adult intervenes, um, the, the child's social world improves.
So your child's gonna be crying and, um, begging you not to say anything, not to do anything. A lot of times when kids are bullied, they think if they make themselves smaller, um, things will improve. Um, but that's not what's gonna happen. Things are not gonna improve by making yourself smaller. Things will improve by adults intervening.
And importantly, if your kid is bullying somebody and the school calls you on that, be open-minded. They don't get that wrong.
You [00:25:00] know, they really recognize that parents are gonna be defensive and that it's a lot of trouble. And it's a difficult conversation. It's not one they wanna have readily, but they are doing it because they're trying to improve the school environment and ameliorate the lives of children.
So be open-minded to the fact that your kid may be doing something a little problematic to their peers.
Nicholas Chadi: I think this is really good advice. Of course, as parents, I think this thought of, I hope my kid doesn't get bullied or isn't bullying someone else is.. Is there and, and having an open mind and being there to contribute to the issue really more generally is so important.
Tracy Vaillancourt: But I wanna also say, and I think I missed an opportunity to say that there are things that parents can do.
So we know that when kids are bullied and they tell an adult. Um, especially a safe adult in their school, that bullying tends to be reduced and tends to be reduced almost immediately. So that is really important to [00:26:00] tell, not suffer in silence. We know that kids who, maybe have a terrible existence at school, but have a very caring family, um, do better than those who have a family that's disengaged or not is caring and nurturing.
Um, so, you know, the environment you're creating for your children is also important. Um, and then we also know that kids are most resilient when they have adults. In their lives who are there for them. So, you know, the, the importance of coaches, the importance of teachers, the importance of clinicians like yourself, all of those individuals play an important , role in helping kids who are not doing well in this domain.
Nicholas Chadi: That's, that's really concrete. Uh, and Tracy and I can certainly see how there's a role for pretty much all adults interacting with kids in this issue and preventing bullying and to it. , And I imagine how this could lead to key conversations at several levels. Right? Um,
Tracy Vaillancourt: absolutely.
Nicholas Chadi: You know, [00:27:00] administrators, uh, parent groups and committees among teachers and staff. So there's certainly a role to play, uh, for many, many stakeholders here.
And, um, one more thing I do wanna ask. You know, we talked about the role of parents and, and adults, but looking at the system and in schools more specifically, is there something that could make the school environment perhaps less conducive to bullying or even a positive space, uh, to reduce in-person or cyber bullying?
Tracy Vaillancourt: Absolutely. So every school has a culture of its own, and the culture is in a sense dictated by the norms. That are established by young people. So if those norms are corrupt, then your school environment is corrupt. If those norms are pro-social, the environment is pro-social. So they, we really need to be paying attention to the politics of the, of the playground.
We need to be thinking about who's setting the norms for our school [00:28:00] communities. Um, so if you have high status bullies in your school and you're letting them run amok. Of the place and they are bullying others. Um, without any sanctions, you're gonna have a very problematic environment for a lot of young people.
Nicholas Chadi: and thank you Tracy. I think this is really good and very rich advice.
As the parent of two young kids, I do worry right about, you know, how bullying can impact children's health , and lives. And, you know, you mentioned that, bullying can be. A personal issue, but there's probably a need for a broader understanding.
And, I like to think that, whenever there's a way to be active and respond to something, it's sort of a way to, uh, to feel more engaged.
Well, thank you so much, Tracy. This really has been a very enjoyable conversation.
Tracy Vaillancourt: It certainly has. Thank you.
Nicholas Chadi: Dr. Tracy Vaillancourt holds the Canada Research Chair in Youth Mental Health and Violence Protection. [00:29:00] She also sits on the advisory board of the Canadian Pediatric Society's Center for Healthy Screen use. Their site has free resources on managing screen use, including tips on developing a family media plan and setting screen limits with teens. We'll link to those in the show notes, or you can find them at healthy screen use.cps.ca.
The causes of bullying are complex, but the results are clear. Children and teens who are bullied face real serious and long lasting effects. To best support them, create as positive an environment as possible at home and make sure they know you're there to support and listen. And even if you don't think your kid is being bullied or could be a bully, make conversations about how to respond when they witness it a regular thing, it might make all the difference.
Healthy Teens is brought to you by the Canadian [00:30:00] Pediatric Society. Today's episode was produced by Gen Brouillette. I'm Dr. Nicholas Chadi. If you like this episode, subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast and share with a friend. Please send comments or ideas for future episodes to info@cps.ca with the subject line Healthy Teens. Thanks for tuning in.