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As leaders in a digitally driven world, how do we balance productivity with presence?
How do we create space for silence, reflection, and meaningful connection in an always-on world?
What role do faith communities play in shaping healthier digital habits?
Felicia Wu Song, cultural sociologist and author of Restless Devices, joins host Michael Martin to explore these pressing questions.
How do we create space for silence, reflection, and meaningful connection in an always-on world?
What role do faith communities play in shaping healthier digital habits?
Felicia Wu Song, cultural sociologist and author of Restless Devices, joins host Michael Martin to explore these pressing questions.
Felicia unpacks the profound ways digital culture influences our identity, attention, and spiritual formation. From the transactional nature of online interactions to the hunger for real communion, she challenges us to rethink our engagement with technology.
Join us for a thought-provoking conversation on cultivating "counterliturgies" to our daily tech practices and reclaiming the beauty of presence in a hyperconnected age.
About Felicia:
Felicia Wu Song (PhD, University of Virginia) is a sociologist and author of Restless Devices: Recovering Personhood, Presence and Place in the Digital Age and Virtual Communities: Bowling Alone, Online Together.
With almost twenty years’ experience as a professor at Louisiana State University and Westmont College, she combines her training in history, communication studies, and sociology with a personal interest in theology to speak and teach on matters of spiritual formation and well-being in a digitally-saturated society. Living in the Pacific Northwest, she enjoys a good food truck with her husband and two teenaged children.
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Creators and Guests
What is Behind the Seal?
ECFA's blue seal has been a symbol of trust and accountability for over four decades, but what does that mean? Is it the seal alone that inspires confidence, or is it the nonprofits and churches behind the seal?
Tune in to conversations between ECFA's President and CEO, Michael Martin, and prominent leaders. Together, we'll share stories from behind the scenes of various Christ-centered ministries and churches, highlighting how trust serves as the foundation of it all.
01;00;00;03 - 01;00;31;25
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Our engagement of technology has this way of kind of shaving away our tolerance of interruption and lack of control. Unfortunately, anyone that knows anything about the Holy Spirit, you know that the Holy Spirit is not going to work on schedule. The Holy Spirit is going to do what the Holy Spirit does. And if we're not open to that, then we're cutting off a lot of what we should actually be paying attention to.
01;00;31;27 - 01;01;00;22
Ryan Gordon
If you're like me, your phone is the last thing you see before you go to sleep, and the first thing you see when you wake up. We live in a world that runs on notifications. But with all this connection, why do so many of us feel distracted, restless, and alone? Today in ECFA, President Michael Martin sits down with Doctor Felicia Wu Song, a cultural sociologist, professor and author of Restless Devices, to talk about how technology is shaping our faith and relationships.
01;01;00;25 - 01;01;17;00
Ryan Gordon
What really challenged me in this conversation was when Felicia profoundly clarified the differences between connection and communion. Are we simply connected to the people in our lives, or are we truly known? Let's dive in.
01;01;17;02 - 01;01;21;14
Michael Martin
Well, hi Felicia, welcome to the ECFA podcast. How are you?
01;01;21;16 - 01;01;24;23
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Good. Thanks for having me. It's good to be with you.
01;01;24;25 - 01;01;46;20
Michael Martin
Well. Thank you. Well, we, as you know, have been in a season here on the podcast where we're focusing a lot on Leader Health. And I'm excited for today's conversation because you're really an expert in the space of digital and how that is impacting, our humanity and also our leadership. Before we went to hit record, I was telling you, this is a real passion point for me.
01;01;46;20 - 01;01;53;07
Michael Martin
So you might have to hold me back on today's podcast, but just really excited for the conversation and for your insights today.
01;01;53;09 - 01;01;57;04
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Yeah, thanks. Now I'm looking forward to learning from you as well.
01;01;57;06 - 01;02;17;12
Michael Martin
Yeah. Well, I don't know. I just as I was kind of thinking about technology and all that we're navigating, I mean, is there any greater challenge when it comes to Leader Health than, our devices? I don't know. I don't know that there is. And you talked about kind of being in a season of digital discontent. I find myself, in a similar place today.
01;02;17;19 - 01;02;22;25
Michael Martin
So, anyway, just really looking forward to all the tools and the insights that you have to share with us.
01;02;22;28 - 01;02;25;12
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Yeah. For sure. Let's, let's let's get on it.
01;02;25;20 - 01;02;46;04
Michael Martin
All right. So you have, written a book that's called Restless Devices Recovering Personhood, Presence and Place in the Digital Age. I'd love to just hear from you, Felicia, what kind of brought you to this place of teaching and writing on the subject of, all things digital, but also our humanity?
01;02;46;06 - 01;03;24;11
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Yeah. So I always think of myself as a bit of a late bloomer when it came to, the life of the mind and believing and understanding that, being faithful can involve actually applying one's mind to various areas of social life in our world. And so once that idea was kind of introduced to me, I got interested in the - in in the ways in which media at the time this was kind of like the early 90s, how mass media had a way of shaping us as human beings.
01;03;24;11 - 01;03;51;20
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
And, in the mid 90s I was teaching at a private school. And email was introduced. I'm totally dating myself. This was right after college, you know, e-mail was introduced to the the young women at this boarding school. And it was super fascinating because it was new to the community, and it was a school that very much prized community.
01;03;51;22 - 01;04;44;23
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
But what intrigued me was the fact that email was introduced. But then we had zero conversations about how email was going to or was impacting the ways we were communicating with each other, as teachers, as classmates. And that fascinated me. And so I was a history major as a college student. And so I started digging into the history of how, in the United States, we thought about technology, and I came across this whole literature on technological utopianism, and it just struck me that this heritage of being absolutely gonzo and embracing of technologies was completely still at work in the 1990s, as much as it was a hundred years ago, with the steam
01;04;44;23 - 01;05;22;02
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
engine and electricity and so forth. And that was super interesting to me because it started, kind of opening up for me an understanding of how as Americans, especially in American society, we respond to technology in our kind of, just, just quick to embrace, right, without thinking about, like, there are benefits, for sure, but not being kind of nuanced and just sort of careful and intentional about how we use our media and technology.
01;05;22;04 - 01;05;47;07
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
And the ways in which it's sort. And this is kind of drawing on Neil Postman, which I started reading, who I started reading as well, how the form of the technology, the form, the kind of design and way that we receive communication, audio visual. Right. In a box on a screen. Right. That these things actually profoundly shape us.
01;05;47;09 - 01;06;11;07
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Perhaps even more than the content. Right? The stuff that we're the words that are being spoken over the scenes or the images that we're seeing. And that was just so fascinating to me. And so that led me into grad school and eventually into thinking about, the need for the church to be talking about this as well.
01;06;11;08 - 01;06;34;10
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Right? That this if, if in the end, this is about formation, right? The ways in which the media and technology is in many ways suddenly, subconsciously forming our habit, forming the ways we perceive and receive the world, then, wow, we should really be on this as the church. Because that's kind of what we're about as well.
01;06;34;13 - 01;06;55;05
Michael Martin
That's right. I was going to say Amen. I'm gonna be your amen section. We talked about the two of us will probably get going on this. There's so much, in what you just said. Fascinating was the word that I was going too use to, It makes me think too of the that scripture that talks about in some ways, there's nothing new that's under the sun.
01;06;55;08 - 01;07;15;23
Michael Martin
As you were going back and looking at just sort of the history of things, but I'm also curious to so fast forward from you mentioned kind of, taking some interest in this, even going back into the 90s. But what sort of prompted you to the point of saying, okay, I've got this message in me or this burden on my heart to share for the church?
01;07;15;23 - 01;07;21;13
Michael Martin
Like what pushed you to the point of saying, okay, now it's time to to share that message?
01;07;21;16 - 01;08;04;15
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Yeah. Well, I mean, most of it was just life. If anyone knows anything about, professors and grad school, it is long. And so, a lot of it was just going through the regular, life of being a professor and getting to the place and and eventually being in an institution that would support, my writing and pursuit of, of, a project that, what I love being able to do in the end was, was writing a book that was basically half sociology, which is the field I ended up doing my graduate training in, and half, kind of informed by theology.
01;08;04;15 - 01;08;39;22
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
I don't have formal theological training, but I very much like love reading and thinking theologically. And so being able to put them together and say, hey, you know, the sociology helps us diagnose those and understand how the the mechanisms are working in a particular institution. But the theology gives us a vision, right? A vision, a bar to kind of compare ourselves against, to say, hey, how is it that God created us as human beings?
01;08;40;00 - 01;09;07;18
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
How is it that we engage the world and that theology then gives us a vision of, well, then if this is the diagnosis, if this is how it works in the world, what is the call for those who want to move into the reality of the Kingdom of God? Right. Like, how do we live into that given how we are created and and what redemption looks like?
01;09;07;21 - 01;09;09;17
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
For for us.
01;09;09;19 - 01;09;38;09
Michael Martin
Yeah. No, I think that's so good. And that's something that I really appreciate about all that you've shared is it does come from that place of the Christian worldview of, you know, the Bible has something to say about all of our lives, the time in which we live. And, it's also a very just for anybody who's kind of interested in this book on the restless devices, also hopeful in the sense of, we're not left to just kind of bemoan or complain of like, oh, technology.
01;09;38;09 - 01;09;58;20
Michael Martin
It's so challenging, all these things. But you also give us, some real practical hope from God's word and some tools. And it's not just, as you say, sort of ceasing from a thing or looking and saying, oh, these are negative things. But what you also call us, too, based on God's Word is to also, replace or reframe.
01;09;58;20 - 01;10;10;06
Michael Martin
I'm not sure exactly how you would you probably put it in a lot better terms than I would, but, it's also a matter of, of replacing some of those things in our lives based on how God has uniquely wired us. Right.
01;10;10;08 - 01;10;32;26
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what I think is interesting because the, the project about the book ended up coming out in my mind later than I wanted it to, you know, like I would have wanted it to kind of come out five years before. But in the end it felt like it came out at the right time.
01;10;32;29 - 01;11;08;10
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Because I think, you know, like I said, back in the 90s and certainly even in the 2000s, American culture was just in complete, full embrace. It was just a lot of excitement. And you had, you know, these incredible moments of if anyone remembers Arab Spring. And. Right, there's the ways in which social media and technology was going to, kind of decentralize and bring down the hierarchies, give the little people the voice.
01;11;08;10 - 01;11;33;06
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Right. I was it was just a it. Right. But then around the 20 teens into the right, it starts to move where people are starting to scratch their heads and be like, oh, wait, this isn't quite what we thought it was going to be. People starting to feel tired. All the platforms, all the notifications, the advertising that the industry itself shifts, right?
01;11;33;06 - 01;11;59;05
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
It shifts its strategies. And so we're getting bombarded more and, and that, that like moment, I always kind of make this joke about how like the couple seconds you get between one episode on Netflix to the next episode before it rolls into it, it actually decreases, like, if anyone's noticed, like it's gotten smaller, right? And so like, like we don't have a chance to get to the remote to like, stop it.
01;11;59;05 - 01;12;27;02
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Right. So, like, everything about the industry is, is kind of they're adjusting to make it harder for us to stop the next right episode at whatever. And, and so by the time the book comes up, comes out, I felt like, oh, no, now there's enough people that are tired and there's enough, public figures that are also kind of standing up and being like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
01;12;27;02 - 01;12;50;17
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
You know, like I'm from Silicon Valley and I know we do this on purpose. We know this is intentional, right? Or, you know, some celebrity says, I want I'm going on a digital detox, right? Like this is no way to live. And that starts to kind of move the needle. So I felt like when the book came out, people were more ready, right, to say, okay, yeah, this isn't great.
01;12;50;19 - 01;13;03;29
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
I need some help. Right. How how can I start to, not just be. And I still own around with the winds of whatever notification is coming my way.
01;13;04;02 - 01;13;29;01
Michael Martin
Yeah, if we weren't listening before, we better be listening. When the people who created a lot of this stuff are raising the alarm bells. We ought to be. And I appreciate what you say, too, about being intentional. And we'll dive into some of that, too, especially as it relates to leaders and ministry leadership. But maybe just one other quick thing that I think is so interesting, as you talked about, a lot of this was even inspired by your work with students, decades ago.
01;13;29;01 - 01;13;53;27
Michael Martin
You're still working with students, but in kind of a different context. And, I'm just curious, like, how do you even see, the reaction of students differently from that time period, years before versus now? Like, I know you do things like even have your students go through like some digital fast or not. And those kinds of things, like, what's the difference between even how the younger generation is responding?
01;13;53;29 - 01;14;19;23
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Yeah. So I've been teaching a class called Internet and Society for over ten years, and it has been interesting seeing how students have changed through time. So in the beginning, there was always a lot of resistance, a lot of groaning to the digital fast idea, and it just sounded like completely alien. And oh, you must just be a complete Luddite.
01;14;19;26 - 01;14;45;23
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Go into probably the last three, four years. I would say students are, you know, there's still kind of some reluctance as, as any of us feel, about the prospects of a fast. But there's also kind of, curiosity and hunger and even and many of them, especially the last couple years, have even said they've done it before.
01;14;45;24 - 01;15;11;26
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Right. Which is super interesting. That did not exist at all before. And so I feel like today's students, the ones that are in college now, are they're they're very much, you know, they grew up with, with digital much earlier. Right. Whether it was their phone, they got their phones earlier in their lives. They had the iPads. And so they are worn down much longer now.
01;15;11;26 - 01;15;39;12
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Right. And they know how addictive or how much drama can come, right, navigating their social lives. With this, with the digital. And so they're ready, like so many of them are ready. And even the ones that are truly reluctant. Right. They know. Right. Because culturally it's just more accepted. They know like, hey, you know, like, I'll give it a try.
01;15;39;19 - 01;15;55;29
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Maybe I will never do it again. But, you know, that's fine. And and they're just I think they're just hungry and receptive. Right. Because they feel the stream, in a way that the prior, students can.
01;15;56;01 - 01;16;15;17
Michael Martin
Yeah. Well, we certainly see that in leadership as well, especially for ministry leaders hungry and receptive. I know for me, the Do Not Disturb button is like my new favorite thing, where it's like, even just I know that's not even a fast of like, what you're talking about, but just to have the kind of tools to be able to navigate the space.
01;16;15;17 - 01;16;32;29
Michael Martin
Well. So yeah, shifting into leadership, especially in as you think about, Christian ministry leaders, you talk about personhood, presence and place. How do you see the digital age really impacting each of those areas for leaders?
01;16;33;02 - 01;17;12;10
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Yeah. I think what's very, the slippery slope for us when we are engaging our devices is that it's, it is very easy to have our communications become highly transactional when we are always on a screen managing our inboxes, managing our slack, managing our math. Right. We are managing a lot of information, communication that's coming in.
01;17;12;10 - 01;17;48;13
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
And so then we're pushing out. Right. And my argument is that that kind of we don't need to, you know, we know we're emailing a particular person. We know where we're working through a particular, program or problem, right, with other colleagues. But the impact of the, the deluge, right. Given our human limitations of needing rest, needing to stop needing to play, needing to tend to other things is that we just kind of start.
01;17;48;16 - 01;18;18;21
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Bow bow bow bow bow bow bow as fast as possible. And we think about how the, the way the information is coming also just kind of rides on the shoulders of the cultural productivity that we have in this society. So we want to be efficient, we want to get it all done. And and the the net effect, unfortunately, is that it can become impoverishing to us as persons, right?
01;18;18;21 - 01;18;42;15
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Not only in the ways that we do our work, like we diminish ourselves. Right? Like we come into the work with a love for people, for the love of the gospel. Right? It's it's Bountiful. It's it's enlarging. But then the work starts to kind of just like, yeah, grind away. And, and there's an element of labor that is often like that already.
01;18;42;22 - 01;19;10;10
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
But I would argue that the technology kind of amps that up or rev set up even more because of the speed that it is moving at. So the concern is that the net effect is that our personhood, our capacity to be people and our capacity to recognize the dignity and the full personhood of the person, the people we're engaging starts to get impoverished.
01;19;10;12 - 01;19;46;10
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
And and the pieces of that personhood that most kind of get left to the side are presence in place, right. That the screen tells the implicit message very often is, I don't need to be present to that person to communicate to them, which is true, right? And that's part of the glory of the technology. But it can mean, like, I'm not going to get out of my chair and walk next door, talk to my colleague and have a conversation with them.
01;19;46;12 - 01;20;14;20
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
And sometimes it's because I'm a little uncomfortable about what I might need to say, and it's so much easier just kind of tapping away with my thumb, you know? Like, I totally feel that, too, right? And so we we cast aside presents easily because the screen is there, right? And we cast aside the, the significance of what it means to even just sit and be with someone in ministry.
01;20;14;20 - 01;20;40;02
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Right. And not have anything to say that that's valuable. Right. That that doesn't that, that to, meet a need might actually just be showing up at someone's door, right. Or just sitting with them, and similarly replace, you know, the glory of our technologies is that we can communicate, we can receive information anywhere, anytime, right.
01;20;40;04 - 01;21;15;19
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
But the anywhere part can again start to set aside the significance of where we are. Right, and our capacity to actually, pay attention, to receive the, the unexpected things that come out of a place. And I think that's part of, one of the, the, the largest, effects of our technologies is it starts to convince us that we can actually control everything, right?
01;21;15;19 - 01;21;39;16
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
And that having control is always a good thing, and there's an element of truth to that. But I think anyone who's following after Jesus knows right now, if you look at the ministry of Christ like he let interruptions and a lack of control come in all the time, right? Like he was on his way to go see so-and-so.
01;21;39;19 - 01;22;02;13
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
But then someone comes up, right? And he's not like, sorry, gotta go. Oh, I got I gotta get there in two minutes. Right? It's not like, no, no, no. He stops and he listens, right and says, okay, what's your need? Right. And so those of us who are trying to follow in Jesus's way as leaders, as ministers, I think it's very similar.
01;22;02;13 - 01;22;20;18
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Right. Like we can end up just kind of like control, like, here's my schedule. Gotta get to it gets boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And we control presence. We control place. Right. Like I don't want to see what's happening around me. Like I don't have time for that. I don't have time for this person. Right. Because I got to get God's work done.
01;22;20;22 - 01;22;55;02
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
But it's like, well, the what if God is in that moment, in that person, or in that thing that's happening in your neighborhood, in your living room. Right. And that's the part that technology, our engagement of technology, has this way of kind of shaving away. Right? Our capacity or our tolerance of interruption and lack of control. And unfortunately, anyone that knows anything about the Holy Spirit, you know that the Holy Spirit is not going to work on school, right?
01;22;55;04 - 01;23;08;11
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
The Holy Spirit is going to do what the Holy Spirit does. And if we're not open to that, then we're cutting off a lot of what we should actually be paying attention to.
01;23;08;14 - 01;23;14;24
Michael Martin
Yeah, thank God Jesus wasn't too worried about his notifications.
01;23;14;26 - 01;23;15;23
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Yeah.
01;23;15;25 - 01;23;41;06
Michael Martin
Yeah, I feel like we all need to just, rewind and relisten to everything that you just said because there's so much there to to think through. And I guess one of the questions that I have too, and that is there's a lot of this that I think we can implement personally in terms of taking ownership. Or you use words like being intentional as individuals with how we engage in these things.
01;23;41;12 - 01;24;14;01
Michael Martin
I'm also curious, how can we encourage one another? So thinking about leaders and those that are around them within their organizations, maybe even putting yourself in the seat of a board member who really cares about a leader and is watching for health and trying to encourage health and seeing the impacts of technology. I'm just curious, like, how can we all sort of encourage one another in having a culture of approaching our devices from a healthy standpoint?
01;24;14;04 - 01;24;36;17
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Yeah, no, I love I love that question. Because it, it recognizes the limits of our individual efforts. Right. Like, I can have my own, maybe my own little rules of life, right, that say, all right, I'm going to do this in the morning, I'm gonna do this at night and so forth. I'm going to have my fast.
01;24;36;17 - 01;25;33;24
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
But but in the end of the day, we work in organizations. Our kids go to schools, we live in social networks. Right. And communities where there are norms and there are expectations of how to engage. And so I think it's really important that organizations create conditions that help everyone who works within or is in that organization to to have boundaries, to have permission to press the Do Not Disturb button, to say, you know, these are my hours when I'm going to be available on email or available, via, via messages or these are the hours when I am just not going to be available.
01;25;33;27 - 01;26;05;04
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Right. And we can whatever we want to call that. You can call that a Sabbath. You can call that just the rhythms of the day. You can call that that's the time that is dedicated to Scripture reading and prayer. And we want our pastor to have that protected time, because we know that is only through that time right of being with the Lord, being in the word, that fruit can be born to the rest of the community, right?
01;26;05;04 - 01;26;32;01
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
So we don't want them to be constantly just tending to the devices we know. We recognize this, right? These these particular needs. And so I was I was listening to, a podcast recently where, someone said, I think her name is Jennifer Bailey. She talked about how we, we live in a time that we talk about self-care a lot and self-care.
01;26;32;01 - 01;27;19;29
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
I think depending on who you are, lands differently. Sure. And but she had this really lovely reframing that I thought, oh, that's so good. She said, maybe it can be more helpful to have because, the habits of self-care in terms of collective care. And so the idea is that it is important for someone to get their sleep or to have time to play, or have time to read scripture, and not be tending to their devices or whatever it is, not just for their own sake, but with the knowledge that how they are doing is fundamentally going to impact their capacity to relate and care for others.
01;27;19;29 - 01;27;49;03
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Right? So it's actually impacted the whole. Right. And so we are invested in collective care through the individual right habits that each person engages. And I just love that. I think that's such a helpful. And to me, a more generative way to think about, this, this idea of, okay, what kind of better habits or boundaries do I need to set in my own life?
01;27;49;05 - 01;28;13;07
Michael Martin
That is so right on. Because, yeah, in this room definitely requires a healthy dose of humility. But even for all of us to recognize, like how we're coming into an organization based on how we're experiencing our devices or whatever it may be. There's definitely, an organizational impact to that. I love that that whole idea of collective care.
01;28;13;09 - 01;28;32;26
Michael Martin
How about to, and I hope this doesn't take us, like, too far into a tangent, but I think you really hit on something key to which is, sort of like culture of productivity. I think that's what you were saying. Yes. Yeah. How how do we also think maybe a little bit differently about that to be.
01;28;32;28 - 01;29;22;20
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Yeah. So what I think is fascinating about today's technologies, and this is where a bit of the sociology the new comes out, is that we have to remember these technologies did not just drop out of the sky. They came out of a industry that is led by particular people, that comes out of a heritage of certain values, certain priorities, certain goals, and so what is so compelling, but what makes our devices and our platforms and services so compelling is not just that they really got our number, and they know what gets us going, whether it makes us angry or happy or whatever.
01;29;22;23 - 01;30;04;28
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
But it's that it's it's built on a foundation of a culture of productivity that has existed in the United States for a long time. That is a certain, kind of hyper valuing of getting things done. And, and again, you know, there's nothing inherently wrong with getting things done. The problem with the culture of productivity is when you start to, feel inside yourself or evaluate other people that on the basis of seeing how much you get done is what your worth is, right?
01;30;05;01 - 01;30;36;08
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
And so whether you feel that in yourself or you're evaluating that in other people, it starts you down this cycle of I've just got to maximize optimize every moment. And I think this reaches into, unfortunately, the Christian world, the world of ministry as well. Right. Because the language is slightly different. It's it's I've got to steward. I've got to be faithful all the time.
01;30;36;08 - 01;31;05;04
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Right. Like I got to fill my calendar. So it says boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And that's the only way that God is going to love me, right? Or that I am going to be worthy of the responsibilities or the the role that God has given me. Right? And that's when things start to get contorted and we lose sight of the the glorious message of the gospel.
01;31;05;04 - 01;31;44;25
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Right? Which is no, no, no, no, right. Like your worth is nothing to do with the stuff you get done, right. You're just left. You're a child of God. Full stop. Period. Right? And it is by the grace that we do anything. And so that's the the temptation. I think that is kind of wired into the technologies, is for us to start in a place of, of good intention, of good work, but it can quickly kind of move down this path.
01;31;44;28 - 01;32;09;23
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
That I would argue is is very much the premise of Silicon Valley. You know, it's the, the, the, the beating heart of startup culture, right, of entrepreneurship very often, which is like, you just pound it like all the way, all the time, no limits, right, until you drop and then you just wake up again and you keep pounding right to get it done.
01;32;09;26 - 01;32;56;24
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
And that's just not how we how we are created as creatures, as as human creatures with limitations. That is God, right? God can do, is all powerful, does not need to sleep, does not need to rest. Right. But we need to sleep. We need to. That's part of how we are built. And then it's part of the beauty, I think, of one's journey of faith is, is learning to rely on God's power and not our own right is to is to let go of our our tendency to just take control and say, no, no, no, I'm going to do it right, like I'm going to get it done.
01;32;57;00 - 01;33;26;25
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
This is because of my power or our power that we had this successful thing and not recognize, like, no, no, no. Like a lot of things had to go right. And that's because of God. Right? That went right at all. And that's, that's, I think the joyful journey that, we're called to experience, you know, that we kind of cut ourselves off from when we kind of keep just on the track of productivity.
01;33;26;28 - 01;33;44;02
Michael Martin
Yeah. And we don't want to miss that. We don't want to miss all that God has for us. And speaking of how we were created, I love to how you talk about the difference between connection and communion. Talk to us more about that. Yeah.
01;33;44;05 - 01;34;05;04
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Yeah. So, you know, since the days of the opening of Facebook, it was all about connection, right? Like, this is the glorious thing. We can finally be connected to each other and and to people we don't know that might share similar experience. And that's all true. There are wonderful things that can come out of that.
01;34;05;06 - 01;34;41;19
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
But the problem is that connection, is often framed, especially on these social media platforms, in particular ways that is what I mean is to be connected on a platform like Facebook or, or X, Instagram, whatever it is. You are engaged in a system of reciprocity, an affirmation you're liking or following, right? It's got this kind of social comparison, competitive element.
01;34;41;23 - 01;35;09;08
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Right. So we're connected or we're connected in a particular way. Right? It's not just kind of a neutral way. And most people, and especially I heard this over and over from my students, what most people feel when they're on these platforms of connection is intense comparison, intense inferiority, the sense of, oh, that person has so much more than me.
01;35;09;10 - 01;35;31;12
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Whatever that might be. And so then you start to feel like I just need to show this part of me to the world, because I want that affirmation too, right? That person got that affirmation. I want that affirmation, too. So I'm just going to show you this. I'm not going to show you this thing because I posted that last time, and that didn't get much response right.
01;35;31;15 - 01;36;18;00
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
And so it's it's shaping how we are and how we present ourselves. Communion is totally different. Communion is saying, let's be known and fully know each other. So it's a reciprocity. Again. But it is, framed by a grace and vulnerability that says, I can bring all of myself to this relationship and not be afraid, not be afraid that you're going to walk away from me, not be afraid that you're going to say, oh, that's kind of that's not really interesting.
01;36;18;02 - 01;36;46;20
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Right? But to say, oh, no, the communion is I'm going to I am going to be with you and love you in all of this, all of who you are. Right. And so the communion part, I think, is what God promises for us, and what God promises in our relationship to God, but also with each other.
01;36;46;22 - 01;37;46;29
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Right. And I think the, the with each other piece to me is bound up in presence, right, that we can be connected virtually through distance. But we all I think we viscerally feel that communion happens more readily when we can be co-present with each other. And similarly with God. I think, there's an interesting aspect in which our communion with God is actually often framed less by saying things to God, but by silence actually, like, again, this idea of like just being with right and and the love and the reality of God becoming more evident in the silence rather than in the words right or in the cognitive insights that we might strive
01;37;46;29 - 01;38;20;04
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
for, in our prayer life or in our, in our times of meditation. And so I think communion is something, again, as we said earlier, like we get satisfied with connection and we don't think that there's more. Right. And that's the saddest part is to think this is all that a relationship holds for me. Right. And I think that's the saddest part for young people is to believe that this is all that a relationship can be, this kind of transactional reciprocity, this performative.
01;38;20;06 - 01;38;52;01
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
I'll just show you this part of me, not that part of me. And I think there is, so much we need to, help the world see, right. That that there is so much healing, I think in, in communion. And, and even, you know, I've kind of given very specific like interpersonal, relational, examples. But I think there can also be communion in, say, a collective.
01;38;52;01 - 01;39;06;28
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Right. Like at a worship service in a larger surgical setting, one can also experience the communion of being, you know, in the presence of the Holy Spirit, in the presence of the word.
01;39;07;01 - 01;39;35;08
Michael Martin
Yeah. Yeah, that's a really helpful distinction because I'm thinking back to a lot of these conversations, Felicia, that we've had around the topic of leader health. And one thing that often comes up is isolation. And so that distinction between connection, which at an artificial level may have somewhat of a, you know, a feeling of that, but it's not a real substitute for the kind of communion that God calls us all into.
01;39;35;15 - 01;39;35;28
Michael Martin
01;39;37;13 - 01;40;01;24
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Yeah. And I think that is what's, what is fascinating is that, that everyone is recognizing. Right. Exactly as you said, like I'm online all these time, all this time and I'm unzipping this and wrapping that. But I feel empty at the end of the day. Right. When I turn off all the screens, it's just me.
01;40;01;26 - 01;40;41;06
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
And none of that seems to have filled me. And I think that, unfortunately, we would need to get into another whole conversation. But it is, it is it is a technological problem. But it is a much bigger problem too, right? It's a it's built it it's connected to changes in our social institutions over the 20th century and into the 21st and, and our yet, lack of capacity to figure out, you know, what do we do now that we don't really live in substantial neighborhoods where we know our neighbors?
01;40;41;09 - 01;41;06;12
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
What do we do now, where the family structures are also changing and profound ways. Right. These are all huge changes in, historically stabilizing institutions that that gave people a sense of belonging, a sense of like a safety net. Right? In the end of the day, that just doesn't exist societally. Now.
01;41;06;14 - 01;41;30;29
Michael Martin
Sure. Well, let's take it in as bite size of a piece as possible in terms of what do we do now? Because as I mentioned to you, just at the beginning of the conversation, something I so appreciate about what you bring to this work is that it is hopeful. It is grounded in, in truth of Scripture. I think there's definitely principles that we can follow in terms of navigating this digital space that we're in, which I'm so thankful for.
01;41;30;29 - 01;41;46;13
Michael Martin
So maybe just in the last, a little bit of time that we have together, talk to us about, liturgies or counter liturgies, just kind of how do we, respond practically in light of some of the, the challenges, the times that we're in?
01;41;46;15 - 01;42;15;10
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Yeah, sure. So, the book rides on the work that Jamie Smith has done. The great, kind of concepts of secular liturgies and counter liturgies. So the those that aren't familiar with secular liturgies are these practices and habits that we engage in that we just kind of adopt from the world and unexpectedly and have the effect of moving us away from the kingdom of God.
01;42;15;12 - 01;42;42;21
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
So an example of that might be, every time I come home from work and I'm wanting to wind down, what is it that I do? I fall back on the couch and, I either play Candy crush for half an hour or I watch a Netflix video for half an hour. That is my relaxing window. Because I give myself permission to zone out, right?
01;42;42;24 - 01;43;05;18
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
And I'm not trying to condemn or judge anyone. I do this all the time, and I get it. But the problem is, and we all feel it after we're done with that half an hour, we're still restless. We're still kind of like, like, I don't feel like I'm any feeling any better after zoning out than I did half an hour before.
01;43;05;20 - 01;43;35;17
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
So that's the secular liturgy we identify with. The secular liturgy is then how might we engage in what's miss calls counter liturgies, which push back against these secular liturgies and kind of redirect us towards how we no rest truly works or how we know, the, the, the true life of God pours into us. And so what does it look like?
01;43;35;20 - 01;43;58;24
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
And so maybe, a counter liturgy is, is some other habit. So, so maybe instead of just walking out for a half an hour, right. Maybe I find something that I know is actually life giving to me. So maybe I go and pick up that guitar that has been gathering dust in the corner, because I actually enjoy playing music.
01;43;58;26 - 01;44;24;13
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Right. And I just play for a little bit. Right? Or maybe I call up my sister, right? Because my sister is a good listener and, and we have some laughs together. Right. And so she is right that that relationship is a source of life or maybe I read a book, you know, like, whatever it is that makes sense to you, that is actually life giving, right?
01;44;24;13 - 01;44;44;16
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Let me try something else that opens the door right to oh, yeah, like this was actually really good. Or like, I actually talked to my partner or I actually spent time with my kids right? During that time. Even though it can be exhausting. But oh, I actually like playing that game. I like playing Uno for the millionth time right in there.
01;44;44;18 - 01;45;17;13
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
And so we try these other things that are harder because they take effort. Right. That's the thing about the screen, it's so easy. But maybe in the long run we discover, oh, this was actually really good. Like this was worth it. And then we just integrate it into our life. Right. And so the kind of liturgies I think are super interesting because we have to kind of experiment with them, and kind of lean into it for maybe a couple of weeks, like, I'm just going to try playing the guitar for two weeks and seeing how that goes.
01;45;17;13 - 01;45;38;29
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
And then maybe you discover I'm not doing it. Okay, let's try something else and go exercise, do whatever. Right. But then once you find it, I think, you know, you're just like, oh, that was so worth it. And for some of us, you know, and I just gave that one example of what you do after work, but there's all sorts of, you know, what do you do in the morning?
01;45;39;04 - 01;46;03;10
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
What do you do in the car? What do you do when you're having lunch? Right. There are all these things where technology very easily becomes our companion. And the idea is, well, maybe that companion isn't always fabulous. And it's better to just drive in silence or it's better to, you know, have lunch with someone instead of reading the news during lunch.
01;46;03;10 - 01;46;14;14
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Right. Maybe there are alternatives again, that take a little more work and effort, but in the long run, we feel sad and relief through.
01;46;14;16 - 01;46;25;18
Michael Martin
And how do we encourage ourselves? Whenever it does get hard, how do we remind ourselves that it is worth it? To invest in those counter liturgies?
01;46;25;20 - 01;46;54;26
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Yeah. So I think it's about actually just giving yourself permission to, you know, set a date. Like, I'm going to try this ten times. I'm going to try this for two weeks, you know, at least that motivates me to just have a deadline where, like, I can stop this. Like, this is not like this New Year's resolution that I have to keep on doing for the rest of my life kind of thing because, like, no, no, no, I'm just going to try it for a little while.
01;46;54;29 - 01;47;22;13
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Right. And and it does require, I think, taking time to reflect in your own self, like, is this working? Or if it's not working, why is this not working? And then maybe, sometimes we need help. Like, sometimes we do need someone else to do it with us, or we need encouragement. Through someone else. So, you know, find someone who we can partner with, and do it together, right?
01;47;22;13 - 01;47;46;12
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
And say, like, hey, how's it going? You know, like, how's my guitar playing going? Hey, how's that? You know, playing like, and share some laughs and failures together and, you know, like, I kind of want to try something else. Okay? You know, I think as long as we kind of stay on the journey and are are continuing to seek out the counter liturgy, I think we'll find it.
01;47;46;15 - 01;47;57;07
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Right. We just kind of have to, you know, all of us have different life situations. We just have to figure out the thing that works. And I've given given context.
01;47;57;09 - 01;48;14;00
Michael Martin
Well, thank you for that. Thank you for the encouragement that you've been to us already today. Any other closing advice? I know there's so much that we have covered/could cover. But we'll give you the last word here. Any closing advice for us?
01;48;14;02 - 01;48;44;25
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Yeah. I mean, I think in the context of ministry and church, I think we have to remember that we have so many good resources in our, not only in the Bible, but also already in our church traditions, in our heritage, in our theology. Right. Like we just need to kind of get back to it and not just be kind of chasing the trends or chasing the what my, you know, that person down the street is doing.
01;48;44;27 - 01;49;10;15
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Right? Like we just need to get back into who who are we? What are we about? What is the mission and the call that we that that got us to this place in the first, you know, at the start and just kind of lose ourselves because I feel like so much of technology is is unrooting right? It's like pulling us out and saying, no, no, no, you got to do it this way.
01;49;10;18 - 01;49;28;23
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Like, let's just get rooted. And from the place that we that we are confident about, then start making decisions accordingly on how technology, kind of fits into that vision or that call that we know is true.
01;49;28;25 - 01;49;41;18
Michael Martin
Well, that’s a good word. Couldn’t say it any better. So we’ll just end it there. Felicia, thank you so much. Thank you for your work, “Restless Devices,” your time on the podcast today. We really appreciate it.
01;49;41;20 - 01;49;46;28
Dr. Felicia Wu Song
Yeah. Thanks so much. And I had a great time.
01;49;47;00 - 01;49;55;12
Ryan Gordon
Thanks for joining us for the Behind the Seal podcast. If today's episode challenged you, share it with someone to start a conversation. We'll see you next time.