No Office

We discussed 15 years of running #NoOffice company and our plans for 2022.

⭐️ Key things you will learn from this episode:
  • What we learned after 15 years of running #NoOffice company
  • Backstage of launching new Nozbe
  • Why Rafal is selling his car
  • Michael's plans for 2022
🔗 Show notes
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Creators & Guests

Michael Sliwinski
Leading @Nozbe #productivity app | Writing #NoOffice book on #iPadOnly | Blog: | Husband & father of 3. 🐘 Find me at
Rafał Sobolewski
I work remotely #NoOffice and build Nozbe for almost 10 years. 🚄 I'm really into: bikes, trams, trains and urban planning. ⚽️📷 My other hobbies/interests are: #Apple #tech #football #soccer #fcbarcelona #photogtaphy #mobilePhotography 🇵🇱🇺🇸🇪🇸 I speak english, spanish and polish (native). Get in touch 👋

What is No Office?

A podcast by Nozbe about running 100% remote company and building a product. Hosted by Michael Sliwinski (CEO) and Rafal Sobolewski (Chief Product Officer).

Welcome to NoOffice, a podcast about work, technology and life from a remote company perspective.

In Nozbe, we believe that work is not a place to go, it is a thing that you do. That is why,

since 2007, we run our company 100% remotely. In Nozbe, there is NoOffice.

The No Office Podcast is sponsored by Nozbe teams, a to-do app that helps modern teams do great things.

Go to to learn more.

Hello and welcome to No Office Podcast, which is a show about work, technology and life

from a remote company perspective. My name is Rafal Sobolewski and as always I'm joined by

CEO of our NoOffice company Nozbe, Michael Sliwinski. Hello Michael! How do you feel after

running this NoOffice company for 15 years now? I feel great that, first of all, I feel great that

we are there 15 years. It's like when you think about it most companies fail very quickly. So the

the fact that we are online and we are live,

and then we are really running this company.

We've been doing this for 15 years.

We've had 700,000 users worldwide

sign up for our software.

It's a big thing.

And the thing is that it's big,

but on the other hand, it's still small.

When you compare it to other companies that go so fast,

you always have these thoughts that maybe,

I'm doing this too slow or maybe I'm doing this too fast or maybe I'm doing something


And for me, I think the main theme is just to keep trying, keep doing and then keep going

at your own pace.

It's good to have inspirations and then see other people how they are running their companies.

But remember, this is your company.

So run it at your own pace.

Because I grow as the company grows.

My growth is company's growth very often.

And sometimes I'm very hard on myself thinking, "You know, I should have done better. I should

have done more." But sometimes I'm like, "That's fine. I like it that way." It's a rollercoaster,

to say the least, with everything that we've experienced, all the changes, the technology,

how it has changed. Nozbe launched when iPhone launched the same year. And as you know, iPhone

was the Jesus phone. It was the phone that changed everything. So it was the phone that

changed the way people perceive phones. So we had to adapt from my idea of a desktop

GTD software to a multi-platform productivity software suite, and it was all a big change

and a big metamorphosis. And we had to deal with the technology changing and all that

stuff. And last but not least, as you know or might know, I have three daughters. All

of them are younger than Nozbe. So recently my eldest daughter, she just turned 13, she

was complaining that Nozbe is older than her. So I launched Nozbe before I had my children

and then throughout that time I have had three children. So, you know, it's a rollercoaster,

like to say the least. Yeah.

Yeah. I think that without Nozbe, it would be hard for you to having three children to

raise three children.

To get everything organized, exactly.

And on top of that, we are the pioneers.

I launched Nozbe from my home,

and even when I hired people, I never set up an office.

We are truly no office company,

hence the name of this podcast.

And we've never even thought about having an office.

My first hire, Tomas, who's our main business guy now,

my business analytical technical guy in the company,

my analytical part and Tomas, I hired him when he was living 300 kilometers away from me, you know, but he was the best. So that's why I thought, you know, I want the best that I can afford. And he was the best. And he's still the best. And he's still here. So we set it out like this. And we keep running company like this. So now after the pandemic, people are finally embracing no office lifestyle. But we were one of the first companies like this. And even before the pandemic, people were looking at us like we are strangers, like having a fully remote company.

The technology was already there to run it like this.

And now only after 15 years, people are discovering it.

It's actually possible.

It's actually feasible.

It's actually better.

- Yeah, and you know, right now,

I think the keyword for this year,

for this year when we start living our lives again

at the end of this pandemic,

I think the keyword will be hybrid

because many companies will still keep their offices,

but will start to set up their companies as remote first

So that people who are remote, who are not in the office, can still work productively.

And I can see that shift and I'm happy that this shift is happening.

It's great.

And having talked to so many entrepreneurs over these last two years, I can see that it takes them time to embrace this kind of lifestyle, but it's good that finally they do.

Yeah, I think we are finally there.

The snowball is so big now that it cannot be stopped.

Yes, definitely.


because we turned 15, I decided,

and this is what I'm gonna do now, February and March,

I'm going to reach out again to people

who are important to me over the course of the last 15 years.

So who are important to our NoSpeak journey,

who were at some point, I don't know, helped me out

or were supportive or whatever,

like they were part of this journey.

So over the next two, three months,

I'm gonna reach out to them and schedule phone calls

to just connect with them, reconnect with them.

And I did it recently with a friend.

I haven't talked to her for the last three, four years.

So we connected, we talked yesterday on Zoom.

And the cool thing with such friends is that

even though you haven't talked to them in years,

you instantly connect.

So you just start talking and we've never parted.

So that's great.

But second thing, she wanted to ask me for some advice,

how we manage some things.

For example, how we manage our external contractors

to make sure that they are really,

they're still on top of things

and that they are really delivering the job.

I told her recently that we hired

a new graphic designer contractor

and we hired also a contractor

for our analytical marketing part.

So we hired several contractors

and we have hard contractors, the translators.

So we have all that and Rafał, I'm sorry,

but in the end, what happened was that it turned

into a Nozbe sales call.

Because I was like, I'm sorry, my friend,

but what can I tell you?

We are using Nozbe to make sure that it works.

And I told her the thing that, for example,

we hired a graphic designer.

The first thing we did, we created,

in the new Nozbe, we created the project for him.

We created a joint project.

So we invited him to this project.

And when we did, he signed up, he started using it.

And we asked him to download a mobile app

to make sure that he can receive all the notifications

on his mobile phone.

And then we started working together, and we didn't have to email anymore.

We didn't have to even set up a Slack channel for him.

Like, none of that.

Everything happens in Nozbe.

When I said that, and then I said the exactly same thing with the other guy, and then this is what we do with our translators and stuff.

And she was like, "Huh, then maybe we should try Nozbe first.

And maybe we shouldn't email these contractors."

And I'm like, "What can I tell you, man?"

So it was kind of, you know, I was there, like, reconnecting with a friend.

just trying to just talk about stuff.

But in the end, I was selling Nozbe

without even trying to sell Nozbe.

So it was, and that's what I like about our company

is that with our no office values

and with our Nozbe app, this is for real.

We use Nozbe to build Nozbe.

So we use Nozbe to build Nozbe.

We use the app as much as any other guy.

And then we also live No office really.

Like we don't just say that remote work can be nice.

Like we, this is how we work.

We don't say that, you know,

you shouldn't have so many meetings,

but then we have so many meetings.

We don't.

So it's like, and we constantly keep tweeting,

tweaking to make sure that we don't have too many meetings.

So in the end, like when you live through and through

like this, then it's hard not to recommend your app

because like, actually this is where,

this is the room where it happens.

This is the place where it happens.

- Yeah, because actually our product, our app makes like,

It enforces on us this lifestyle what we have, what we are running.

Not only how we communicate in a team, but also how we live our lives.

That we don't need to move to the big city to have great career opportunities,

but just work from wherever we want.

Yeah, it allows us to really live the life we want to live.

When we connect with friends, that's normally that it somehow be a topic of our conversations.

Yes, completely.

So it's like, you know, really, I didn't want to sell anything to her.

But I was like, yeah, but this is how we work.

Like this is what I can-- and so in the end of the conversation, I was like, so you can

choose any other tool.

Like you can choose our competitors or whoever.

But I'm telling you that-- because I wanted to explain to her the main thing.

And the main thing is when you stop using email for collaboration and use a dedicated

tool, it's going to be easy.

Like right there, right?

And then of course, if you use Nozbe, it's even better

because we think this is the best tool for that,

but you can choose any other tool.

But if you use the data tool, you know?

And then she was like, yeah, and our dev guys,

they're thinking of ditching Jira

because nobody likes Jira.

And I was like, well, we use Nozbe again

to develop our app.

Like, Nozbe doesn't have a very fancy integration

with GitHub, just like Jira does,

but it's enough that we just put links to pull requests

in the comments and that's it.

and we can track the changes and the pull requests

and all that stuff.

So it's not a big deal, really.

I still think that we might, in the future,

think about tighter GitHub integration,

but for now, this is really enough

for us to run the whole thing,

and we really do have everything in GitHub.

So in the end, it was kind of a sales call.

- All right, let's talk about what we actually announced

last week, because we have new Nozbe.

So the artist formerly known as Nozbe teams now is new Nozbe.

And it's a product for everyone, for personal use,

for family use and for your team.

And yeah, we are finally there after 15 years.

- Yes.

- Yeah, and that was actually our original plan

like back in 2018, 2019.

- Yeah.

- It was supposed to be a new Nozbe,

but we figured out that we will not be able to at start

to deliver all of the features that are necessary.

- This is one of the learnings or takeaways

when you run a company.

Fake it until you make it, it's kind of real.

Like this is something you just don't,

like you can have all the plans in the world,

all the ideas in the world, but in the end of the day,

you never know what's gonna work

and you never know how things are gonna turn out.

Like, as you said, when we set out in 2016, I think,

of designing a completely new Nozbe,

we thought first of directly replacing the old Nozbe.

in the beginning. So we had all the design plans, all these ideas and everything. And we had the whole new technology stack ready for that because we were thinking of using a different technology to make sure that we can have Nozbe like this for the next decade or more to come.

come, because the technology stack that we used in the first version of Nozbe, and that

we kept improving was limiting us of what we could do. So we did that.

But then when we realized, well, this app takes more time to develop, it's

going to take a lot more time than we thought. And at the start, we want to focus on the

new features, completely different from Nozbe Personal. So we thought, let's launch

as Nozbe teams. So just for teams. And then we can add the kind of missing features that are really

also important in productivity, but not as important for team collaboration. So that was the

idea. And then we launched Nozbe teams and we had two products, but then people were confused. They

didn't know which product for them to use. They thought Nozbe personal was abandoned, which it wasn't.

But we couldn't have as much time as we thought to build new features for Nozbe personal.

and then we started just to focus on Nozbe teams. So it was a mess. And then we decided to finally

admit that Nozbe teams is the new Nozbe really. And this was all our plan, back to

original plan, basically. Because in the midst of all this, we had all these changes of art.

We didn't know maybe this, maybe that, maybe this. And we decided that with 15 years of Nozbe,

let's just use the birthday as an excuse to actually announce it. Because Nozbe teams,

the artist formerly known as Nozbe teams, as you said, is mature enough, is good enough.

There are still some features missing from Nozbe Personal, which we might, and we will, some of them,

we will add, some of them we might. We said, let's do this. And of course, for that, we had to prepare

a migrator, which I know how much you've worked on it, because it was so much work to make sure that

we can migrate. It is still because we need to improve it, because we learned from the great feedback

from our customers some small issues. Yeah, and what I wanted to highlight, it is that because

back in 2020 when we were launching Nozbe Teams, the app was in the state that it wouldn't be a

good idea to offer it for Nozbe personnel users that didn't have any team to use it because it

was lacking many features for them. If we encourage them to switch, they would hurt

themselves their productivity. Now, after almost two years of developing Nozbe teams,

now it's new Nozbe and of course it still doesn't have all of the features of Nozbe Personal.

But now it is in the state that we feel comfortable that it's okay for Nozbe Personal

users to test if they can already use new Nozbe. And Nozbe Personal is here to stay because, like,

many users are asking us of this. Like, we will not be able to develop new features for Nozbe

but we are here to maintain it and make sure it works for many years to come.

So you can use it and yeah, it can be still your trusted productivity system.

Exactly. So the thing is that we wanted to highlight, as you said,

that Nozick Personal will be maintained because this is a trusted productivity system.

But if you want the new features, then we can have the new features when you migrate to the new Nozick.

and then you will have the new features.

But if you rely on some features,

like for example, we don't have templates yet

in the new Nozbe, we're gonna have them soon, but not yet.

So stick with Nozbe Personal for now

and migrate in a few months

when we are ready to ship the new templates

in the new Nozbe.

And the same thing goes with the desktop apps.

Like we are in the final stages of testing

the Mac app and the Windows app,

but if you really want them now,

so just wait a month or something.

And then when you see them,

set up a free new Nozbe account, and then you'll see how much you like it or not, and how much you can enjoy it now.

The thing is that it's really hard to iterate on a product and to change it.

The problem with being 15 years on the market is that you're stuck with your thinking from 15 years ago,

In very basic aspects of the app.

In 2007, you designed Nozbe to be the tool that helps you.


With productivity, yeah?

And this is the thing. I've increased the team. The team is bigger. It's not just me.

I've matured. I've learned a lot from the users and from our team.

So at the end of the day, because of that, we want to try new things.

things. We want to try better things, we think, better productivity ideas. But it's really

hard to put them, to shove them to users who are used to the application as it is right

now. That's why I think it was a very audacious call and very brave of us to launch a new

app completely and rewrite app, which is really hard and lots of work and lots of money, to

rewrite it completely, to be able to try new things, to try new things for the next decade,

for the next 10 years, for the 15 years, whatever,

like to try new stuff.

And wow, that's why it was a tough balance

and a tough dance.

But what I really appreciate is that,

what I've learned from last week announcing

the 15 years of Nozbe and then the Nozbe teams

becoming the new Nozbe version basically,

is the fact that when you announce that,

when you have the clarity of like,

like this is the clear path,

like this is the way to go,

then most of the users were very supportive.

Like it was amazing.

The same users were complaining about us not deciding,

having two products and all that stuff.

The same people started saying,

"Michael, way to go, now we know."

And I'm like, "Yeah, clarity is great."

Having clarity is fantastic.

And this is like the story of my life.

Whenever I was debating over things

and then suddenly I had the clarity of purpose,

clarity of what I want to do,

the clarity is just great.

Because when you have clarity, you just go for it.

You just do everything we can.

So the same goes now.

Like we have clarity, this is the new Nozbe.

So we know we have to improve the migrator

to make sure that the migrator really works for everyone.

'Cause now it works like in 90%, it just works perfectly.

And the 10%, it can get flaky.

So we know that.

So now we are improving it on it.

And we know we have to make it great

because this is a part of the process.

And now suddenly we also know how to improve

the migration of plants and all that stuff

to make it really seamless.

Now we know that we have to have the desktop apps

really well done because people rely on them.

So that's great.

So like the moment when you have clarity,

like everything aligns,

like you put your ducks in a row.

- Yeah, and that's why I discussed

the previous episodes of this podcast.

We are more and more transparent

and that really helps us because we recite

a lot of positive feedback,

even from customers who say like,

"Okay, I really like New Nozbe,

but I still need to stay in Nozbe personal,

but I'm excited about New Nozbe."

- Exactly.

So yeah, and we received a lot of feedback like this,

and it was such a relief.

- I mean, really, this is the thing,

and I've been questioning many of my decisions

over these last 15 years, like very often,

and then people have been questioning my decisions

very often, and it's good to question stuff,

but at the end of the day, you have to decide,

and you have to make a decision

and just move forward with it and see how it goes.

And the good thing about running a small software company

is the fact that usually most of the decisions

not big decisions. So you can, if you see that the path that you took is not the right

one, you can still go back and change the path. Sometimes you can, sometimes it's just

really hard then, but usually you can. And that's why it's good to try, it's good to

give it a shot and then see how it goes. I can tell you honestly that it's almost never

right or wrong. It's usually, let's see what gets us.

And during this preparation for launching New Nozbe, what I really liked was that I

recorded a video, a demo, step by step, how to use our migrator.

And I really liked it, but I made some mistakes.

For example, I started with English video and I didn't notice I recorded it on dark

mode theme in the browser.

And yeah, that wasn't a good call.

I only noticed after recording it.

Oh man.

It was a deadline.

So we decided, okay, let's go for it.

But interesting thing is the day after I started recording Polish version of the same video

and I was doing this on Friday evening.

I know I usually shouldn't do it on Friday, but that was unusual week.

Yeah, it was really a busy week for us.

And I encountered this issue in our migrator that subscription migration didn't work for

some reason.

And it was already Friday evening, so I didn't want to call anyone to help me with that.

So I postponed finishing the video.

I recorded like 80% of the video and I said, "Okay, I can finish it on Monday."

But I was recording on Friday evening and I had a small circle of view from my camera

with my face next to the screencast, next to the Nozbe UI.

And on Friday evening, it was dark outside.

So I needed to reproduce the dark environment.

Fortunately, I have this window blades that I can make it really dark in my room.

So I tricked it.

I put the same t-shirt that I wore on fly day.

And I finished recording video.

And I really liked it.

I should record more and more videos like this because I didn't expect that it's so


Yeah, I mean, we're getting better at this.

So let's talk more about the videos after the break.

Let's do a sponsor break for our Nozbe, for our new Nozbe.

So like, you know, this whole episode almost is about

you know, it's about also our journey

as the No Office company.

So stay with us and let's hear like how Nozbe

can solve your problems because it's just great.

- Once I started using Nozbe,

that's when we started to really think beyond

like a freelance mindset to more of a team mindset.

And the beauty of it is that we can have a remote team.

So we could hire people based on their credentials

or based on relationships that we had

and people that we knew would be really good

and didn't have to hire based on location

and somebody that's within a mile radius,

something close to where we were.

It also, NoSpe is very intuitive and easy for a team to use.

So as we add new people,

whether it's a contractor or an employee to the team,

we can get them set up with NoSpe

and within really an hour,

they can see projects and tasks that are assigned to them

and start working.

So most of our team's really taking those pretty easily.

(upbeat music)

- All right. - All right.

(both laughing)

And yeah, I want to remind you

that we are still celebrating our 15th birthday.

So you have time to 15th February?

- Yes, to get 15 bucks.

- Yeah, to take advantage and get 15 bucks from us

in credit in our referral program

that you can later use to extend your Nozbe premium subscription.

All you have to do is to sign up for a new Nozbe.

Exactly, or set up a new team.

For a free account.

Or if you already have an account in Nozbe,

you just set up a new team inside the app.

So let me just talk about that, because I think it's, again,

something that we wanted to do always in the old Nozbe,

but never got around to it because of many decisions we made in the product.

In the new Nozbe, you can have several teams.

And we talked about it already in previous podcasts,

but the cool thing now with this promo

that you can get 15 bucks if you set up a new team

is that you have a perfect excuse

to actually set up a new team.

So when you are part of your team, let's say,

in the company, you can create a new team for yourself,

for your personal tasks, or maybe,

which I think is really cool use case,

set up a team for your family.

So the new Nozbe is free for up to five people,

I mean, five projects and five people.

So you can basically set up a new team for free,

invite your wife, your children,

and just get your house organized.

And with five projects and three sections per project

and quite a few tags that you can use as well,

like with all that, you can really have a free app

that manages your whole household.

So not only So Nozbe teams, the new Nozbe,

is not only great for work, but also for getting all the chores done. And also teaching your kids

and your wife, maybe, or your husband, productivity principles. Like that we have to delegate tasks,

you have to comment on the tasks, you have to iron out the details, like all that stuff.

Make sure to check it out. I am right now in the process of setting it up for my family. I mean,

we have three kids, so the plan five people is perfect for us actually.

So you're using free account?

Yes, yes.

I'm using a free account.

I'm also this way, I'm also testing the free account, how it works, how are the limits,

and all that stuff to make sure that we also communicate these limits and communicate the benefits of premium.

But make no mistake, Rafał, I'm going to upgrade to premium because we will have

also projects just between me and my wife.

So we really want to use it also as our personal productivity thing.

So it will be our personal space.

And I also want to teach my eldest daughter for now,

and then the remaining of my daughters,

how to also set up projects just for them,

how to manage stuff with us together and all that stuff.

And then of course we want to have projects like vacations

as projects for the whole team

so that everybody can contribute.

Because when you're a father,

you can appreciate that you have to get your children

involved in planning, because if you don't,

and they just might not want to do what you think you wanted to do,

or might not have enough enthusiasm for that,

or might just take things for granted.

So it's good to get them involved.

But do you really want to, like, having vacation with your family

at the beach and just receive notification from Nozbe,

from your daughter with a task, Daddy, can you bring me a towel?

I hope we will not get to that.

But we do want to plan things,

'cause we have this idea in the summer

to go rent a camper van again,

a camper van like this house on wheels.

Yes, and drive around the north of Europe.

We wanna go to Norway, Denmark, and Sweden.

And our idea is to use it.

For that, you need to really plan it,

'cause there will be ferries involved,

would be Legoland, of course, because, come on, I'm a big fan of Lego. And an excuse to

go to Legoland. Of course, for my kids, not for me, is fantastic. And so for that, we

need to plan it. So I do expect my daughter to prepare some plans, you know, which fjords

to see in Norway. And anyway, by the way, if you have any tips for me to visit, you

know, visiting Denmark, Norway or Sweden, or if you're from this country and want to

give me some tips, like, you know, email me at I'll be really happy.

So we are doing that and I think we can do it all in Nozbe again, just as a family.

And I think it's going to be great.

Okay, one last thing about Nozbe, I promise, because let's hide this because we have some

questions about it, is that this free account or premium accounts is like per team.

If you have two teams, you can have one team is premium and one team can be free.

So the account type, the subscription type is per team, not per account.

Because if you have many companies, you like to have different invoices data for them.

Of course. And also, this gives you flexibility that you can really try things like this.

Have several companies. You don't have to be owner of all these companies to be part of the teams.

And also, again, I want to highlight the second team option. It's also a great benefit for your employees.

So if you set up the new Nozbe for your team, and then for example premium, let's say, for 10 people,

and you have 10 people in your team, these 10 people, all of them have access to your team, of course,

but then all of them can set up their own free account, own free team.

So you are basically giving them a value add that they can get their personal stuff organized

and their business stuff organized all in one app, which is just very convenient and

very productive, I think.

Let's change topics and talk about life. And actually, you are going to visit Denmark,



Yes. And the Danish government has proclaimed that 2022 to be the year of the bicycle.


Yeah. And because Tour de France will start in Denmark this year.

Wow, that's interesting.

Yeah, and that's interesting also because I also proclaimed for me 2022 to be the year of bicycle.

Actually, I named it El Ano de Andal en Bicí, and I will get to it why it's in Spanish.

But as you may remember from our previous episode when we talked about yearly reviews, etc.,

I recently for two, three years now, I switched from setting goals for the year to setting

theme or theme or direction. So I called my theme for 2022, a line of them under NBC,

riding a bike. Why is that? Because in the 2021, riding a bike was the one, the biggest thing

that actually made me feel alive. The thing that made me feel alive, that forget for some time

about all the bad things happening in the world, especially in our country right now.

And it really sparks joy inside my heart. So yeah, I want to focus not only on riding a bike,

but it's a reminder for me to focus on those things that can help me forget about the whole

bad stuff and that sparks joy inside of me. And second thing I noticed that magically sparks joy

inside me, Spanish language. Because, yeah, I really enjoyed learning Spanish, talking

Spanish, listening to people talking Spanish. And yeah, in the recent years, I somehow lost

it. Because in recent years, I was focusing on improving my English, English for this

podcast, for other videos, and so on. I don't know why, but it's magical language that the

the melody of this language, it just sparks joy in my heart.

And yeah, from now on, I'm trying to listen

more Spanish music and less podcasts.

- Okay.

- Because podcasts are always like additional information

and I, yeah, you need to take a break sometimes

from information and I don't have kids.

So for you, it's natural that after work,

you play with kids and that's this kind of activity for you.

I need to find something else.

Yeah, I already changed the language of Nozbe to Spanish.

So now I'm dogfooding Nozbe in Spanish so I can give some feedback to Domi about Spanish


I really can't wait for spring to come because I already riding my bike when weather is nice,

but when spring comes, I'm selling my car.

Oh yeah, wow.

- Yes, yes, so 2022 will be no office and no car lifestyle

because yeah, what I learned last year

that actually driving a car doesn't,

at least in our country, doesn't spark joy.

- Anymore. - Anymore for me.

Yeah, I figured it out in the autumn,

but recent trip, I used to like driving a car

like for a trip on the highway, listening to the podcast,

But now I notice that it just,

even this small noise of the car, it bothers me.

The driving style of other people,

it just makes me anxious, nervous.

And when I compare it to the trip I had

for our last Nozbe reunion,

which was combined bike plus train,

like, man, that was awesome experience.

I want to travel like this.

Because I know like, bike is not only great

for recreation, for fun.

It's only good for not only transportation inside the city,

which is obvious, but also for traveling like this.

So I want to take more bike trips this year,

and I will be selling my car

because we sum up our expenses for the car

and see for what we actually use it.

And it resulted that we actually don't need it

to having a car.

Of course, with the same cost,

can still use like taxi or Uber couple of times per week and like two, three times per

year we can rent a car, like even better car for the same cost, for the same summary cost

per year. So when I don't have car easy available, I will always choose bike as my default transportation

mode. The barrier of entry is, yeah, is better. So when you, for example, want to visit your

parents who live very far away from you right now in the north you will just

rent a car for that or will you travel like public transport like by train or

something there is an option like train plus 60 kilometer 60 kilometers bike

right Wow that's ambitious so I want to once do that and for other other trips

we will rent a car I still have this feeling of FOMO so fear of missing out

because I budged and I didn't join you for the bike trip in for our reunion

because it I was envious that you did it and I wanted to do it. That's on you man.

That's on me completely. Yeah I'm just I'm just saying that I am. But speaking of year of the

bike for for my family it started out like this because my kids were not

really fond of bikes. In the beginning of the pandemic I bought bikes for my wife and for my

eldest daughter. My middle daughter, she had an okay bike. And we rode a few times, but then

kind of these bikes were just in the basement collecting dust. And I was like, "Man, I'm a

triathlete. I love riding on a bike. Why don't they want to do it?" But as you know, as a parent,

it's hard to enforce your point of view on people. You should just maybe let them grow and let them

just embrace it themselves. And what happened was exactly that. Like my eldest daughter said,

"I want to go to the school by bike." And I was like, "Oh yeah, but it's five kilometers. It's not

just very short and then it's a hilly ride. So like we have to try it first." So we did.

And then the middle daughter said, "Yeah, I want to do the same." And I was like, "Ah-ha!"

And then, in the end, we actually bought the middle daughter a new bike.

Because she outgrew the bike. My middle daughter, she's gonna turn 10 now, and she grew like

five centimeters in the last half a year. So it's amazing how fast she grows. So we got her a

new bike where she had more gears, and especially for the hilly ride, it's fantastic to have more

gears and now she just can't wait to go by bike to school. And then the little one,

the six-year-old, five and a half year old, she learned to ride bike from scratch in seven days

flat. Like really from on the first day already she could, you know, ride on her own without me

supporting her. And then next day she learned how to start and then she learned how to do slaloms

and like so quickly. So now all my girls are riding bicycles and they love it. And so I think,

it's still a little bit cold in the mornings and they are a little bit cold themselves,

like with some running nose and stuff. So we decided that starting not in February,

but in March, we should start riding to school by bike almost every day. And it's going to be

like a completely new dynamic for our family because we are used to going by

like you know with our seven-seater car all of the girls to school and it's a

five kilometer ride so for for a bike it's quite lot but for car it's almost

nothing so it's kind of you know why it's kind of wasteful to take the car

for a five kilometer ride you know and I love it I'm happy and again it wasn't me

forcing them it was them being curious about it and trying it out so you know

I'm not saying my car, I still need a family car. I'm sorry, but this is the way it goes here.

Yeah, no, like, I understand that people with children.

Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's like this. And especially, we live on the on the

suburbs, like in the outskirts of the city. So we want to live here. So, so it's fine. But, but but

I was saying, what I'm saying is that we will use it less, especially for shorter trips, because we

we will use the bikes.

And also, I think starting from March or maybe April,

also for the extracurricular classes,

like for example in the evenings

where my elder daughter goes to the gym and stuff,

and then she can just go by bike.

I don't have to take her by car anymore.

She can just go by bike, you know,

tie the bike in, and then come back by bike.

It's fantastic.

Also, this feeling of independence,

what I saw in the eyes of my kids was amazing.

Like the feeling of like, I can do this, this is my bike and I can ride it and I can just go by myself.

Like it's fantastic.

Yeah. And you're never stuck in traffic.


That's nice. And I don't know how is your city, but actually in Poland for the recent 20 years, the bike infrastructure got really, really good.

Like it's not still like many lanes, et cetera, but many trips you can do like with 70, 80%

by the separate bike lane, separate bike track that you can even many times go through the

park or next to the river, but there is no cars at all.

So yeah, that's really nice.

Yeah, so we discovered that, yeah, from where we live, for example, there is no bike infrastructure

like in our closed neighborhood.

when we get out of it then there is and there is actually pretty vast so just one of the

things that we do now on Sundays for example for the holy service for the church we go

by bikes and then from there we go by bikes ride around and then go to a restaurant for

a for our you know it's our family outing you know in on Sundays so it's really really

nice speaking of that I can see now how the infrastructure in our neighborhood can could

improve and I am actually going to try to lobby our local neighborhood to

actually change it. Because I like driving cars. For me, driving cars

still sparks joy and all that stuff. But I can see how too many

parking places are just wasteful and how removing one parking lane which

like fits like you know 10 cars could just make it a very nice and and and wide

bike lane you know and of course these 10 cars will find a place to park somewhere else no problem

and we will have a nice safe you know bike lane so um i wanna start lobbying that here in our

neighborhood and then start proposing that we should do it the neighborhood should think about

it and should really um find money in the budget to really start changing to a more bike friendly

place and not just have parking lots. Yeah, it's in the interest of

drivers even to have more bikers because more bikers mean less

car drivers and that's good for everyone. And you know the thing is

that drivers are not really patient with bike riders. So for

example there is a piece where I'm going with my 10 year old by bike

and I'm just going in the middle of the road because there is no other

way to go. Pavement is too narrow, and then there are parking places, and then there is the

one-way street. And the funny part is that it's like a 300-meter one-way street. And at the end

of the street there is a red light, always. So they are going behind us. We go like 20 something

kilometers an hour because it's downhill. They go behind us and they try to overtake us. And I'm

And I'm like, man, calm down.

Like, you're going to be on the red light in 300 meters.

So there is no rush.

Like, you will not gain anything.

But still, they're like, ah.

You know, it's so annoying.

And once somebody overtook me, even though they

had no space really to do it, and later they

stopped at the red light.

So I caught them on the red light.

And I knocked on their window.

And I was like, man, really?

Did you have to do it?

Like, couldn't you just wait?

And he apologized, which was nice.

Oh, that's nice.

Yeah, because it was like, come on, man.

You're not going to speed up here.

This is not going to happen.

I'm really approving this ecological way of doing things

and riding a bike.

And I'm really happy as a father and proud

that my daughters are right now good bikers.

And you can see the more we go, the better they become.

They're just faster.

They are stronger.

It's fantastic.

As I said, it's a win-win-win situation, because it's less stressful, it's better for your

health, it costs less.

Yes, yes.

It's fantastic.

And having a good bike, I was so happy that we bought for the middle one, for Emilia,

we bought her a very good bike.

And she enjoys it so much, and now she learned how to switch gears in front and in the back,

and she can mix and match.

And then it's like, and then she's so happy and she's so, you know, I don't know, self,

you know, like the self worth is just like doubles like these is just like she's like

so proud of herself that she can do all that. And she can climb that hill and it's fine.

All right, so any other thoughts for your on your plans on 2022?

I'm gonna be because as you know, we've talked about our home offices and all that stuff.

I keep improving my home office. As if you're watching this podcast, you can see that I

I am a bit bigger like I mean no I the the the you can see that there is a new

lens here like you can see more of my office when you look at when you look at

me now which is a very nice I bought a very nice lens for my Sigma lens for my

Sony camera that's why you can see me in such a nice so I before that I used to

have this lens this small one which was manual focus I also had that one but it

was just too close to my face and now I have a wide angle and nice

lens so I'm gonna be recording more videos about our no office lifestyle.

There will be a new video dropping very soon on the home office again and

there will be additional videos coming up very soon because now I have this as

you mentioned it's getting more effortless to record a video and we have

very cool video guy who's editing the videos very quickly. So this way we can

really produce some cool videos and then have them shipped pretty quickly.

And like all these ideas I had for videos now we can react on them. So I

want to do that. And of course I mentioned that we're going to have this

trip to Legoland and to give you an idea like this is my new Porsche from

Lego which I just built. It's fantastic and this this particular

model. It's a 911 Turbo and 911 Targa. So you can in the end, you can decide which one you want.

And because I didn't want to decide, I built a Turbo Targa. So I basically mixed and matched

so that I can have both. So first I built the Turbo and then I decided, let's try to build

the Turbo Targa. So I did that, and I found all the pieces necessary and it's really cool.

It's a very cool car. So I love building LEGO bricks.

So I'm so happy that... So I'm selling a car and you buy more cars, but in LEGO?

Yes, exactly. I'm buying lots of cars, but only... So I have a dream...

Like when you have this hashtag on Instagram "dream garage", so I have a dream garage

of lots of Porsches, but they're LEGO size. So, well...

you should put your Porsches on the porch.

- Exactly, exactly.

So that's basically it.

But the most important thing for us really is,

and the most important thing for me is

now that we have clarity about Nozbe,

I have clarity that I have to really finish up

and start promoting my book, "No Office."

So we will be discussing more chapters from my book

in the future episodes of this show

to discuss them in depth.

I will be editing the show, I mean the show,

not sorry, the show, I will be editing the book.

Because right now you can, if you go to,

you can see the rough draft of the book

and you can read it online, it's for free.

I mentioned that I'm gonna open source the book.

So now the idea is to build a launch team

and get a launch team.

So if you wanna learn more, just stay tuned

for the updates on this.

And then when we have the launch team,

I will be editing each chapter of the book to do the final edit and also send it for proofreading, but also editing with the community.

So with people who will be in the launch team to make sure that all the chapters are clear, concise, and exactly the way we want.

And then in May, probably, this is the tentative date.

I shouldn't promise dates.

Yeah, you should.

But I'm not involved in bug production.

So I just let you... That's on you.

That's on me, man.

That's on you and no impact on my work.

Exactly. So my idea is in May to launch the official No Office book.

Like launch, like have a launch party, launch it and offer it for sale on Amazon and on Audible

with all proceeds going to charity and also offer it completely free online to read on the web or get a PDF or ebook version.

So you will be able to get it in many forms and hopefully this NoOffice book will spread like wildfire and people will learn about NoOffice lifestyle better.

and it will help everyone to change to this, you know,

hybrid remote first workspace

that I think everyone deserves.

- Okay, let's, with these good vibes,

let's wrap up this episode.

- Exactly.

- So Michael, what day is tomorrow?

- It's mighty Friday and it's time to?

- To weekly review, plan priorities for next week

and learning something new to have a great weekend.

So if you enjoyed this show, please help support this podcast.

You can share it with a friend.

You can leave us a nice review in our podcast, or you can just check out our Nozbe app.

So you can check out our Nozbe app and get 15 bucks.

We give 15 bucks for free. Anyway, and really think like for the, you know,

it's the beginning of the year. So for the next months to come,

think about your priorities well and really try to use Mighty Fridays.

try to use Fridays as a weekly review part and to learn something completely new because

a skill that you will acquire may help you with everything.

This episode has not been created in the office because in Nozbeam there is no office.

Your hosts were Michael Stravinsky and Rafa Soboleski.

All the links and show notes you will find on

The whole production process of this episode has been coordinated in a project in Nozbe


Work is not a place to go, it is a thing that you do.

Thank you and see you too in two weeks.

Remember to have a mighty Friday.

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