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On this podcast, we’re on a mission – to change and disrupt the way people think about B2B marketing one insightful conversation at a time. Get inspiration from interviews with B2B marketers and industry experts who share their stories, achievements, thoughts on trending topics, and give B2B marketing tips and recommendations. This show is hosted by Christian Klepp, Co-founder of EINBLICK Consulting.
Regardless of which B2B vertical
you find yourself in, we can all
agree that getting new customers
to hit your financial goals is
imperative. That said, we know
that many traditional methods
and tactics are no longer
effective, which means that we
need to get more creative about
customer acquisition. So how can
you go about doing that, and
what role do B2B marketers have
to play?
Welcome to this episode of the
B2B Marketers, the Mission
podcast, and I'm your host,
Christian Klepp. Today, I'll be
talking to Brooke Shepard, who
will be answering this question.
He's the founder and CEO of
Mason Interactive, where data
design and strategy work
together. Find out more about
what this B2B marketers mission
is.
I'm gonna say. Brooke Shepard,
welcome to the show, Sir.
Thank you, sir. Thanks for
having me.
Really looking forward to this
conversation, Brook, because,
man, this is not just pertinent
to B2B marketers. I think this
is just highly relevant to
businesses everywhere. So if you
don't mind, we'll just, uh, get
started. Hop right to it right.
Let's do it.
So you, Sir, are on a mission to
help businesses grow through
paid social, paid search, social
media, SEO (Search Engine
Optimization), email and beyond.
But for this conversation, I'm
gonna say we need a zero in on a
topic that I think has become
part of your professional
mission, and that's how to think
creatively and get new customers
in B2B. So you mentioned
something just for context for
the audience. You mentioned
something to me during our pre
interview call, and it kind of
stuck. It's less about the
technology you have and it's
about how you're getting new
customers to hit your financial
goals. So here comes the
question, why do you think so
many B2B marketers obsess over
the shiny object instead of
focusing on how they can help
reach new customers?
The short answer is, I think
it's easy to focus on a new fun
toy. I have another theory about
that, which is that if you're
buying a piece of software,
you're saying to yourself, this
technology is going to help me
and help make me better, whereas
if you're buying a consultant or
like hiring me, I think you're
saying to yourself, wow, this
person knows something I don't
know. And I think that's
probably harder. I think it's
probably a harder position for
myself and for anyone, I think
to be in it's which to say, just
to recast that it's easier to
buy the object than it is to
have to have to acknowledge that
you want to listen to someone
else's advice, because the
object is a shiny new toy that
may, that may work very, very
well, and may transform your
business. Certainly, there's
technologies we onboard that
work really well, but yes,
people definitely get distracted
by six months long integrations
of shiny objects.
What do you think a lot of these
companies, regardless of whether
it's the B2B marketers
themselves or the companies
they're in, why do they Why do
you think that they resort to I
guess I'm not gonna say tried
and tested, because they were
tried at some point now they're
just like, slowly becoming
irrelevant. But why are they
still defaulting to these old
tactics instead of thinking
creatively?
That's a great question. I was
talking yesterday to describe
himself as private equity, as a
financier who I was, I was
really jealous of the situation
he was in, because the way he
the way his company works is he
takes positions in businesses
and and he might, he might buy
30% of your company, or 20 or
80% but he buys a piece of your
business, and then he owns part
of it, and then he's on the
board, and you sort of have to
listen to him. Because he owns
part of the company. And his
joke was, no, they don't always
listen to me at all. And I was,
and I was talking about the
difference between that and and
and working in an agency where
people don't always listen to us
and follow our own advice, which
is, I think we're going to get
more into this with some of the
other questions we have ready.
But I don't always know whether
I want to focus on what's worked
before and focus on what's tried
and true and iterate on it and
make it better.
I get the I mean, there's a
story once about once when I was
selling advertising, I walked
into a guy's office and he had a
poster in the wall, and it was,
it was a poster of two armies
from from medieval times
fighting, and a salesman was
trying to sell one of the armies
of machine gun, a Gatlin gun,
and the guy in charge of one of
the army said, No, this was a
cartoon on his wall. So no, I
don't want to focus on anything.
I can't be distracted by a
salesman. I want to focus on the
tried and true, which was a
silly it's his pointing. How
silly it was, because if only he
had a Gatlin gun, this cartoon
guy and this cartoon poster on
this wall, this office, he
would, he would have won the
battle. So I you need it. You
need a mix of both things.
Honestly.
Yeah, no, absolutely,
absolutely. So on this topic of,
you know, thinking of new
methods, creatively
unconventional, finding ways to
get new customers. What are some
of these key pitfalls you think
marketers should avoid, and what
should they be doing instead?
I think the number one thing,
and I said this in other places,
I think the number one thing
that people need to focus on is.
Is how many new customers they
want, and that's that's a little
easier for B2B people to
understand, but, but it's, it's
like, just so far and away is
the number one thing. If I ask
someone that comes to our agency
for help growing their business,
and are my sales teams talking
to them, one of the questions
I'd like to ask, because most
people have revenue goals, most
people have an idea of they want
to be up 30% or they want to get
to 5 million, or they want to
get to 20 million, or they want
to increase. Most people have
goals like that. But if you ask
someone the follow up question,
which is say they want to get
from 5 million to $30 million in
five years, that's great. How
many of those are going to come
from new customers is and if
someone could answer that, I
know that I'm dealing with
someone who's thought with some
diligence and perspicacity about
their business. And not everyone
can, not everyone can think
about that. It's easier
sometimes to talk about
upselling existing clients,
which is important, or reselling
old clients, which is also
important. But I think really
the key thing for when you're
thinking about growing your
business is, how many new
customers do you need to get to
where you're where you're going
to want to go.
Yeah, yeah, no, that's
absolutely right. And I'm going
to throw this additional like,
follow up question in there for
you, Brook, it is 2025, but how
much of a role do you think AI
plays in all of this?
A lot, the...
Short answer.
So well for B2B, so, so there
was an article. There was an
article in The Economist, and
the article was something along
the lines of if, if ChatGPT is
an efficiency booster, and if
the Gross Domestic Product is a
function of how many people
there are times how much they're
producing on average. Why
haven't the because we're all
using ChatGPT, why haven't the
adoptions of these technologies
increased productivity in the
GDP (Gross Domestic Product)?
And my answer to that is, I
don't know this. I'm not an
economist, but my answer to that
is, as follows, part of our
business to business plan, not
all of it. It's a slice of our
pie is to do RFPs (Request For
Proposal). And for people who
don't know if you want to work
with the government or a big
institution, they usually offer
they usually issue requests for
proposals, and they're very
detailed, and you have to fill
them out, and it's time
consuming and it's difficult.
We used to do fewer RFP
responses with more diligence.
Now with chat. So let's say we
used to do 10 a year. Now we
might do 40 a year using ChatGPT
or Claude or whatever else we're
using. So So you think, Oh,
we're being, we're being a lot
more productive. We went from 10
to 40. But the issue is,
everyone else went from 10 to 40
as well. It's not, it's not as
though we're the only ones
leveraging these tools. And so
we have this competitive
advantage. It's, it's, it's, can
everyone use them, and how can
you use them? We're recording
this the time. We're recording
this ChatGPT 4.0 came out a
little while ago. It has a
verbal tech that everyone, I
think, is catching on to with um
dash. It's not the journey dash,
it's the destination you get. So
you have to see those things
floating around. But so it's
heavily integrated into our
process as an agency, in terms
of making ourselves more
efficient. We use it. We use it
all the time. And certainly it's
using certainly it's helping us
produce more creative more
quickly. Certainly it's helping
us analyze things more quickly.
It's not giving us ideas yet. So
far, the ideas are still, are
still coming from us. So that's
my my answer about that is its
level. It's it's making us more
productive, but we're being
product more productive at the
same rate everyone else is. So
it's not like a net increase in
our output. I don't think in
terms of our economic output as
a business. Does that track?
Does that?
Yep, yep. Absolutely,
absolutely. I just want to go
back to something you said
earlier, because you were
talking about, like, how you
have these conversations with
clients, about, like, what are
the revenue goals, and where do
they want to be? Those that have
done their due diligence or have
thought this through? Well, they
demonstrate that in the way they
answer that question. Just
digging a little bit deeper,
where do you see? A lot of these
we can use your company as an
example. In these conversations
you're having with clients,
where do you see them making the
same mistake over and over again
in terms of new customer
acquisition?
Well, not having one, not having
a new customer goal. So I'm
going to make up some numbers,
because I don't want to give my
business plan away. But as an
illustration, right? I know what
our client churn ratio is. I
know historically, how many of
our clients that we have now
will leave us by the end of the
year. That's a, that's a
knowable figure. Some years are
better, some years are worse,
but I have 16 years of data that
says that this percentage of our
clients are going to leave us.
So if I know that going in, I
know that to be flat, I need to
replace that many customers,
right? Let's, let's use round
numbers. Let's say I have 100
clients, and I know that I'm
going to lose 10 of them in a
year. That means I need 10 more
at my average client value to
stay flat. If I want to grow by
30% I need 30 I need 40 more, 10
to break even, and 30 to get to
30% higher. So if I need 40
customers through the year, I. I
have to figure out where I want
to get them from, and then I
could have a discussion around
trade shows, RFPs, referrals,
advertising and email outreach.
I can go through the different
pieces of this, but I wouldn't
if I didn't have the first part,
which is I need 40 new customers
in this hypothetical scenario to
grow by 30% year over year. I
don't think I could operate the
business. I'd be, I'd be doing
things like, Should we do a
trade show? I don't know. How's
the pipeline? Weak, yes, strong,
no, right? And having these
conversations that are about,
like, I don't even know what?
So it's not about the revenue
for me. It's about the it's
about the number of new
customers that you need going
in, and where are you going to
get them from? The other thing,
the other flip side of that that
we see a lot, is this industry,
the digital advertising
industry, changes so quickly
that skills get outdated very
quickly. And my skills, in some
places, are outdated. I was, at
one point, a hot gun hired hand
Google Account Manager. I'm sure
I could get back there, but my
skills are out of date. I am no
longer really super great at
that. People that are right, so
the company has a whole
ecosystem built around that, and
they're better at it, and they
spend more time on it, and they
think about it more than I do,
but a lot of people don't want
to hear that, and so you'll get
people that will come into the
ecosystem with outdated ideas
about how to be marketing their
businesses. The big one lately
is they'll be thinking about
niche audiences in meta.
Because four years ago, you
could target, I don't know, 49
year old dads who live in
Brooklyn like me, differently
than you could target 42 year
old dads who live in lower
Manhattan like my friend, and
you could have different
audiences and different creative
and different ideal customer
profiles. Go after these people
differently, and you don't
anymore. Now they're all put
into broad targeting, and the
crate is what drives the results
to a large degree. So that's a
big one. Actually, my biggest
thing is you have to know how
many, not your revenue goals,
because everyone has everyone
has those, but how many new
customers you need to get to
your new revenue goals. And then
the subset answer is, a lot of
people are looking at outdated
methods of advertising where
they're focusing on things that
just aren't impactful anymore.
They don't want to listen to
anyone else's advice about
stuff.
Yeah, the era of Mad Men,
unfortunately has come to pass.
Sorry, Don Draper, he'll be
okay. All right, so break it
down for us then. So how can
from your experience? How can
B2B marketers think creatively
to reach new people and walk us
through those steps they need to
take to help sales generate
better, more qualified leads.
And you've talked to us about
some of the stuff already.
Yeah. I mean, I'm gonna, I'm
gonna repeat some of it, because
I try to keep it simple, and I
think it's worth, worth just
going into it. It's knowing how
many being honest about your
revenue goals is the first thing
most people have those more is
not a goal, by the way, but
growing by 30% is a goal.
Growing by 10% is a goal growing
by a million dollars. Having a
specific goal is the very first
thing.
Then, being honest with yourself
about what's going to happen to
your business if you don't get
any new customers, if you only
focus on existing customers,
you're going to be more
profitable in the short term.
You're going to not have to
worry about sales outreach.
You're not going to spend your
time doing that, but you're not,
you're probably not going to be
growing as much over time if
you're only focusing on existing
customers. Probably so set a
revenue goal that's specific
back into in an honest way, how
many of your existing clients
are going to leave over the next
year? And your business might be
a business where 100% of the
people leave, or might be a
business where 90% of the people
where 10% of the people leave,
and you've got a very sticky
business, but whatever the
number is, know it and then, and
then, and then find out how many
new customers you need to grow
to hit your targets based on
your churn ratio.
And then I listened to a bunch
of your episodes. Listen to most
of the ones I could recently.
And you had a guy on a few weeks
ago talking about HubSpot. You
need some way to track things,
and HubSpot is a great way to do
it. You can do it in Salesforce.
If you're smaller. You can do it
with a with a spreadsheet, but
at some point you need some CRM
software to track so in my
hypothetical example of I have
100 clients, I know I'm going to
lose 10. I want to grow by 30%
that means I need 10 to get back
to zero, and I need 30 more to
grow to 30% then I need to know
my closing ratio. So let's,
let's say, if I want 40
customers, that my closing ratio
is 10% I'm using these round
numbers to make it easy. Okay,
that means I need 40 customers.
That means I need 400 sales
qualified leads to get and just
saying that out loud, and having
consensus across the
organization, with your sales
team and the marketing team and
the operation team, and how
that's going to work. How are
you going to staff up when you
when the when you get these new
clients in over the course of
the year, and just develop a
consensus around that, and
everyone being on the same page,
and so Okay, now I need 400
sales qualified leads this year.
Where am I going to get them?
And then taking a look at
HubSpot, where you got. Of last
year, and that's probably a good
starting a good starting point.
I don't I think there's some
issues with the attribution and
HubSpot and triple whale and
glue and all these things, but
so I think there's some buzz in
the way you can get to those
numbers. But it's set a
financial goal. Find how many
new customers you need. Once
you're honest with yourself
about your churn ratio, find out
your closing ratio, so you can
back into how many leads you
need, and decide where you're
going to get them from. And it's
not everyone does that. There's
a lot of like I'm going to I'm
hoping for growth this year. So
anyway, that's my, that's my
really, that's sort of didactic,
but I, but I believe that I've
been doing this for 17 years,
and it's the path we follow.
Yeah, yeah, no, no, absolutely,
absolutely. I mean, all of the
things you just said, like,
like, really resonated with me.
And it's that it's that whole
and I find this to be true, not
just for smaller companies, even
larger ones too. They get really
busy, and because they're busy,
they're like, Okay, let's just
park the whole new client
acquisition, right? And it's
such a dangerous thing to do,
right?
Yeah, and they on the, we're
talking about B2B, but on the,
on the, on the, on the, I do, I
deal with B2B because I'm in
sales for my agency, and I need
new customers. And but then one
of the things that the customers
we get in are doing, and I think
this is a function of interest
rates, and it might not be, but
it certainly correlates interest
rates going up. Is focusing on
efficiency, and what people mean
by efficiency, generally, in
digital advertising is selling
to selling new products to
existing customers, as opposed
to getting new customers in. And
if you don't get new customers
in, you're you're just gonna
die. You're just gonna efficient
yourself right out of business.
Woman named Erica, who we work
with, talks about it being a
death spiral, and I'm not sure I
can talk to a client directly
and tell them they're in a death
spiral. That she can as the
investor, and she's and she's
right about it,
Yeah, yeah. Well, that's for
sure. That's for sure, just
because we're talking about this
topic, about, like, okay,
thinking creatively on getting
new clients. Can you give us an
example, ideally like, maybe
from your own company, how you
didthat?
Well, for our business case
studies work well, because
people want to see that the
things they've done that you've
done things for other people
that are that are like them,
that can be a little bit of a
double edged sword, because
sometimes people want
exclusivity, right? And then you
get, look, I only want to deal
with people that sell pens. Do
you have a selling pen case
study? Case study? Yes. And then
that's great. Or someone could
say, well, do I only want to be
the only pen company you have? I
don't want anyone's ever sold
them before.
But case studies work, work
really, really well in terms of
business to business. Work, it
really, it really is. The number
one thing that I found that
works over time is being able to
say to someone who's going to
hire you for, you know, for
$10,000 a month, or $100,000 a
month, or a half a million
dollars a month, or $2,000 a
month for the next couple of
years, being able to say to
them, we've done this before.
We've done it several times.
Here are the results that we've
generated for some other people.
I think it's going to work for
you, too, if we follow the same
playbook. Let's take some shots
here and see it. See how many
goals we can score together.
That really is the number one.
It's the number one thing for
me.
It comes down to creative we run
meta ads for ourselves, right?
And we have all these
suppositions about what's going
to work in our meta ads, and we
have text based ones, and we're
constantly doing doing tests
text based, versus image based,
versus hook based, but, but it's
really always about self
assessing and proving to people
that you can do what they want
them to what they want you to
do. If you walk in the door with
a case, if you're a makeup
company and you call mace
interactive, we can send you
five makeup case studies, which
I presume they've read on our
website before, they call us.
That lets them know, hey, these
guys, these guys could do this.
They've been in business for 16
or 17 years, and they've got a
lot of track record for this.
And it's less about focusing on
the the widgets and the
offering. So we have a tech
stack, right? Like we've
invested in our tech stack at
Mason, and we talk about it
during the sales process. But I
fundamentally believe that
people, and it's part of it,
people like it. We have things
that we do hire us, you can get
that would cost you 20 times as
much if you got them on your
own. You get that for free, or
it's built in. It's that's all
true.
But I think what people are
buying is the benefit of growing
their business and the
experience of having worked with
us. I think focusing on the
benefit is always works for us,
as opposed to the I can talk
about our tenure, and I can talk
about that we have a billion
dollars managed, and these are
all these are true, and I can
talk about our tech stack, and
it's great. It's great, it's
expensive, and it works well for
clients. But I think those are,
those are not as important as
the overall putting them
together and saying, This is our
history of driving results. The
benefit of hiring us is that
you're going to get these
results, as opposed to, as
opposed to listing the features
that we have three offices a
tech stack this much experience.
I think people care much more
about the benefit of hiring us
than the individual. Hiring us
in the individual components.
Generally, there are certainly
people that are that want to
focus in on the on the on the
products of hiring us or anyone
else. But generally, it's about
the benefits.
That right there. What you've
described, that's the perfect
example of like you're looking
at it from the customer's lens,
right? Like, if I'm the
potential customer. Them are
looking at you, and are you the
right service provider or
company or whatnot, you know,
the right fit for us, versus
flipping it the other way
around? And, like, look how
awesome we are. Look how many
awards we want.
Yeah, yeah. And the corollary to
that is what we talk about is
the brand prison. So, like, so
we'll look, we have a lot of
fashion client but about half of
our clients are schools and
about half of our clients are
fashion brands. And people say,
why? And it's probably because
those are two things. I like
education is a unifying force
and an edifying force in this
country and others. Our
education systems, our higher
education system, is a thing to
be proud of, and makes us a
source of light for people
around the globe. And I like
nice clothes. And both those
things can happen at the same
time, but so clients come to us
for help with those things, and
sometimes they'll say, I don't
want to try new approaches. I
don't want to try new creative
because it's not on brand. And I
understand that. I understand
want to be on brand, but if
you're focusing so much on your
brand that you can't get the
word out, it's no one's seeing
you, and you're in your own
brand prison. We have a client
that sells, how do I say this?
We have a subscription based
client that sells a unique
feature. Let's call it mopeds
and, and. And they have a great
feature, a great way to buy a
moped for cheap. And their ads
don't say, get a good moped for
cheap. Their ads say something
about, like, the nature of the
company and how it was founded.
And I understand their desire to
do that. I really do, and I'm
not against it, but I've really
got to push them to get out of
their own brand prison. Because
they're they are in, they are in
a brand prison, this client of
their own making, of focusing on
on the brand of their scooters,
and how they and their mopeds,
and how they how they function.
And once, I'm convinced that,
once I get them to break out of
their own brand prison and focus
instead on the benefit of the
consumer, which is great moped
electric for cheap, that they're
going to the sales are going to
go through the roof. So breaking
out of brand prison is, or is a
new way we talk about that with
people.
There seem to be a lot of
companies, at least, also, in my
experience, that are trapped in
that prison. And it's, it's a
steep hill to climb with them
that they just, they just
somehow can't break out of it,
even if they wanted to, right?
Yeah, and it's an interesting
thing. And again, I'm not, I'm
not complaining about this. I'm
sure I did this in my own life,
in my own in my own ways, so I
don't want to sound studio about
this. But like when you when you
hire an agency, if the agency is
credible, the people probably
found that it came from a
consultancy or another agency.
My senior team, my Vice
President of Operations, our
head of SEO, our Senior
strategists, our client
directors, client facing
directors and down. Those people
have all seen more budgets and
more media plans and more of
what works across our client
portfolio. About 60 clients
across our 60 client portfolio
with billions of dollars, they
have just seen more of these
plans and budgets and strategy
documents than really any one
client has, you know, and maybe
our analysts aren't, aren't,
aren't, aren't used to looking
at that the same way a vice
president is. But they've all
seen it. We've all talked about
it. And then, and then clients
will come in and they'll they'll
say, here's my plan. What do you
think? And I it's a challenge.
It's a challenge to talk to
clients and find a way to convey
to them that you should listen
to us more. We see more plans
than you. And here's what, this
isn't going to work.
I'll give you an example. One
client came in, our client, that
guy went to Wharton, raised,
raised money, started a product
was taking off, and he had a he
had a he had a financial model
going through it forward four
years. And his conversion rate,
the rate at which his model, the
rate at which people landed on
his website and then bought the
product with a make up the
number. Let's say it was at 1%
it wasn't it says 1% he had a
fixed formula for his conversion
rate increasing each quarter.
Let's say it would increase 10%
a quarter, which is a great
call. It's a great goal to be
optimizing your website and your
creative and your pricing
structure and all these things
to focus on getting an increase
in conversion rate. That's a big
win. He's right to focus on it,
but your conversion rate is not
going to compound at 10% better
each quarter in perpetuities.
It's not going to happen because
eventually, if you do that math,
you're going to have a
400,000,000% conversion rate,
which is not how math works. So
I said to the guy when I was
talking to him, I said, I really
like your plan. There are parts
of it that are so sophisticated
I've never seen before. Thank
you. I've learned something from
this is really great. You asked
me what I thought about it all.
That's true.
Also, here's one thing as a
point of sort of developmental
criticism that I might that I
might offer for you, sort of
forward looking at looking
ideas. Having been through the
Springer a bunch of times, I
think maybe we should take a
look at the conversion rate that
you have hard coded as
increasing by 10% a quarter, and
look maybe historically, what
some other benchmarks are across
the portfolio. And that
Christian is as delicate way as
I can say that. And the guy's
like, no. We're gonna, we're
gonna go with our math. Okay,
you know. So like, I find, I
find it interesting when, like,
like, if you hire an architect,
maybe you give them an opinion
on where you want the stairs.
But ultimately the architect
tells you you need to improve
the foundation. You could
probably listen to the architect
and not decide you're gonna do
it. Probably listen to the
dentist when they tell you need
your teeth cleaned, not say,
I've got teeth and I don't agree
with you, so such as life.
Yeah, I mean, that formula in
theory, that sounds wonderful,
but, but to your point, in
application, there's just no way
that that is gonna work.
That is correct. That is totally
correct, but it's fun, and that
guy's very successful, and he
and he's doing great. So, yeah,
I mean.
Ok, fantastic, fantastic. All
right, my friend, we get to the
point in the conversation where
we're talking about actionable
tips, and man, you've given us
plenty already, but let's just
assume there's somebody out
there that's listening to this
interview between you and I and
you you want them to A - take
your advice. B - act on it right
now, not in 12 months like right
now. What are three to five
things you would tell them to
do?
The first thing is, and I
realize it sounds self serving
coming from an agency guy, the
first thing I would do is, I
would ask my agency what they
would do if they were my shoes,
and listen to them not do
whatever they say. I wouldn't do
whatever I say. But I really
would sit down and say, Hey,
I've hired you for a fee. You've
seen a lot of stuff. What would
you do if you were in my chair
and you had full control? That's
the that's the first thing I
would do.
The second thing, and these
aren't the next thing I would do
if, in terms of actionable
steps, is, again, figure out
your churn ratio, right? Figure
out your turn ratio. Figure out
how many customers are going to
lose this. And it might be. You
might be. You might have a very
sticky product. You might have a
not sticky product, but there's
some number.
Find out what that number is for
your planning and then set new
customer goals. That's the third
one, right? Is new? Is New
Customer goals.
The fourth one would be to look
at your last three or four deals
that you closed and ask
yourself, in an honest way why
they closed and what the real
trigger was. I think it's worth,
we, all, most of us, use otter
or fireflies in our notes. Now.
It's worth it's worth listening
to those things again, or using
AI to look at those things and
parse it through and and say,
like, what do you it might just
have been price. It might have
been the way you smiled that
day, but it might have been the
sophisticated way you package
the clients responses the
clients needs. But it's worth
really thinking about that and
then.
And then, the last thing is,
when you're focusing on
creative, make sure you're
focusing on the customer, on the
benefit of the customer. Get new
customer goals. Figure your turn
ratio out. Listen to your
agency. Don't have to do
anything. They say, but listen
to them focus on creative that
that focuses on the on the on
the feature of your on the on
the on the benefit of your
product. Nothing. Features are
the main ones. I think I forgot
one when I recap that, but I
think, I think we got it.
Looking at the last three to
four deals.
Yes, thank you. Yeah, in an
honest way, yeah.
So, why did they close or Yeah.
And then what was it? What was
it that helped close that deal?
Right? What was the, what was
the, was the no brainer? There?
Okay, okay, fantastic,
fantastic, fantastic advice. Now
here comes the next question,
which I always called the Love
it or hate it question. But at
some point, man, at some point,
you're gonna have to show
somebody that this stuff is
working. We are make we are
making progress. So metrics,
right? So are there any
particular metrics that you
think beauty we marketers should
be paying attention to?
Yeah, sales, the the I had a
conversation with a very
sophisticated woman who worked
at Expedia and now is a CMO, one
of our clients, and she and I
learned something from her. She
This isn't groundbreaking, but
the way she talked about it was
so sophisticated and smart, and
she she packaged it in the way
that made me think about it
differently, which she talked
about was de averaging your
metrics. Because a lot of times,
if you're if you're in house,
and I think from your from your
listenership. I think maybe
there's some people listening
that work in house for in the
marketing team, or maybe they're
starting their careers and
they're reporting to a marketing
director. If that's true, and
you're listening to this, I'm
sure that your boss is going to
ask you a question, like, say
something like, I'll do more if
it works, if the ROI is there,
I'll keep spending what should I
do next? And that that's not
really, it's not really fair for
you or anyone at any point in
their career, because that's a
little bit like saying, if I, if
I, if I, if I look like Daniel
Craig in James Bond, I'm built
like that. If I go to the gym
one day and I look like Daniel
Craig, I'll go back again to the
gym the second day. Just not how
it works. You have to, you have
to eat nothing but chicken for
six months and go to the gym
every day to begin to approach
that. It's worth sort of
thinking about that and the way
this person who was the CMO
worked with Expedia, and is now
a CMO of our client talked about
was de averaging your metrics.
The top of the funnel ads are
not supposed to have the same
ROI as the bottom. The funnel
ads, you're allowed. Your boss
is allowed. You are allowed, I'm
allowed. We're all allowed to
say, I need to operate at a
certain row ads or ROI or
efficiency metric. That's great.
But there's things in that
funnel that in your advertising
stack, that might not be held to
those same metrics, as long as
the aggregate is still there,
that should be judgment
different ways. So let's just
look at that. Let's say you have
two campaigns that are live. One
is about reach for new
customers, and one is about
remarketing. I'm making these
numbers up. The Reach Customer
has zero ro has has one ROI, and
the remarketing has a five ROI.
And your boss says, I want to be
at a four ROI. Anything,
anything below four cut. It
might be an easy temptation to
say, well, let's cut the reach
campaign. Is it one roi i boss
wanted before doing marketing?
Is it five? If I turn that one
off, my numbers are better. My
boss would like it. I think it's
the wrong way to look at it. The
right way to look at is to
average those two things
together and see together, are
they still averaging to the four
of the boss or the marketing
team or me wants to be at, or
the client wants to be at, and
then judge those top of the
funnel campaigns by different
metrics. They you shouldn't
judge an introduction campaign
by the same last touch. Did they
buy it as a meta remarketing?
You should be looking at reach.
You should look at frequency.
You're looking at CPM (Cost Per
Mille). You should be looking at
the percentage of new users.
There's all sorts of things that
you can look at there that are
that are different. To get mad
at a reach campaign for not
producing return on investment
immediately is like getting mad
at a squirrel for not swimming
as far as a fish can swim. It
doesn't track. They do different
things.
Absolutely.
Sorry, I got my high horse a
little bit, but that's.
All good. All good. No, and they
should be treated differently.
They should be measured
differently, absolutely. Oh, by
the way, I caught that like you
the way you pronounce. Daniel
Craig, right? Because I think he
was on the Stephen Colbert show,
and he roasted Stephen Colbert
for saying, Daniel Craig.
I remember that, actually, yes,
I remember that. Yeah, I'm
sorry. I'm just doing it the way
that's a little outdated as a
reference. But I do, I do use it
with people still. It's like,
it's like, if the ROI is there,
I'll do it. Well, that's not how
this works. Like, I mean, like,
you think Coca Cola has an
immediate ROI on Super Bowl
commercials. That's not, that's
not looking at us. How many
people they get, anyway.
Exactly, um, it kind of sounds
like you're on your sole box.
But just stay up there a little
a little bit longer. Just, just,
just, just for this next
question. All right, a status
quo in your area of expertise
that you passionately disagree
with. And why?
I think the status quo that I
disagree with is the is the over
reliance on too few media
platforms. And by that, I mean
most people that come into our
ecosystem come in wanting to do
if you're a school client, I
mentioned half our clients or
schools have from our fashion
brands. And that's not exactly
correct, but it's about, about
correct. The school clients are
gonna do more Google. 70 cents
of every dollar is gonna be in
Google, on average, the direct
to consumer brands, the fashion
brands that we're selling to on
our business to business way
those guys are going to do 8,70,
cents of every dollar on matter,
really, on Instagram, and that
is the status quo. And they walk
in and they and people come in
matters and mature industry.
People come in with ideas about
it, and they have ideas about
campaigns and influencers and
campaign setup. And although
there might be great ideas the
status quo I have a problem with
there is when you think about
your own media consumption, how
much, how much, how much of your
own media consumption is
Instagram in your life? Like of
all the media you consume, what
percentage of it is Instagram?
20% maybe.
Maybe part, maybe, maybe a lot
more of it. For me, is watching
TV. Was watching Hulu with my
wife with a glass of wine,
right? That's hours of time. And
maybe Instagram is in the
elevator between meetings. Maybe
from the power user, it's half
an hour in the morning catching
up, but it's not 80% and yet.
And yet, the status quo in the
industry is, I'm going to spend
somewhere between 70 to 80% of
my dollars in Instagram and try
to hack that and make it work
better, which is, I understand
it, but I don't love it. Because
if you think about your own
media consumptions, you don't
spend 80% of your time on
Instagram. So why would you
spend 80% of your budget on
Instagram hoping to go so that's
a status quo that I don't that I
don't love it. Yeah, great
question. I had to really, had
to really dig for that one. I
appreciate it.
That's what it's there for. Man,
it's, um, it's getting people
to, like, I hate to say, think
out of the box, but just, just
think differently, right? Um.
All right, here comes the bonus
question, and I kind of prepped
you for this already. All right,
warden the street, is that
you're kind of handy with a
guitar. So the question is, the
question is, if you were given
the opportunity to either play a
set at a club or go on tour with
a guitarist, who would it be?
And why?
Today? What would I do?
If this person called you, like
right after this interview and
said, Hey, Brook, I've seen your
video of you practicing your
guitar.
What would make me leave my wife
and family and job and either do
as one set or a small tour? So
if the darkness called out of
the UK, if the darkness called
and they needed, I can't play as
well as that guy, but if they
needed someone to play back up
on some of those songs, or carry
the amps around or or restring
the guitars, but maybe I could
play back up on a few songs. I
would absolutely do that. Plus
they don't tour for that long.
They tour for a couple of weeks
at a time at the most. So I
would, I would, I would, that
would be awesome.
Fantastic. Awesome. Brook, this
has been an awesome
conversation. Man, thanks for
your time and for sharing all
these insights with the
listeners. So please, quick
intro to yourself and how folks
out there can get in touch with
you.
You can find us at
https://masoninteractive.com.
Anything you fill out in that
website, we'll go to a
strategist and also me. You can
find me on LinkedIn. Brook
Llewellyn Shepard, but our
website,
https://masoninteractive.com is
the best way to find us. Thanks
so much.
Fantastic. Fantastic once again.
Brook, thanks for your time.
Take care, stay safe and talk to
you soon.
Thank you.
All right. Bye, for now.