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Welcome to the Men of Faith podcast where we’re dedicated to calling men up, not out, to live a life dedicated to our God.
This is more than just a podcast, it’s a community and a brotherhood. In each episode, we'll explore topics that touch the core of our spiritual and daily lives—from the sacred bonds of marriage and the joys and trials of parenthood, to practical advice on health, fitness, and managing our finances wisely.
Our journey begins now and we want you with us, so please subscribe on your favorite listening platform.
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Learn more about Project Church: https://projectchurch.com/
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Caleb Cole [00:00:00]:
Unforgiveness locks in pain and locks out God. And that has been something that's always, like, resonated in my mind that not only are we locking in the pain of the hurt or the offense, but we're also locking out God from healing it, touching it, from helping break off the chain of bondage that we find ourselves into it. And then our identity becomes that offense. You're listening to Men Of Faith, the podcast dedicated to calling men up and not out. Join me as we live a life dedicated to our God. What's up, everybody, and welcome back to the Men Of Faith podcast. I'm your host, Caleb Cole, and I am here with my co host, the man himself, Brandon Miller is in the building.
Brandon Miller [00:00:57]:
Hello, Men Of Faith. Great to be with you this week.
Caleb Cole [00:01:01]:
Yes, sir. And you are rocking a be kind t shirt. I just think of every time I see that shirt. Be kind. Rewind.
Brandon Miller [00:01:11]:
You're going back to the eighties. Let's go back to the blockbuster days.
Caleb Cole [00:01:15]:
Hey, I've aged myself. I saw a question on social media last week. It was like, have you done any of these things? And one of the things was spent a Friday night at Blockbuster video. And I was like, yup, I used to go to Hollywood video all the time. Do you remember Hollywood video?
Brandon Miller [00:01:32]:
Oh, sure. If one didn't have the new release, you went to the other to see if you could corner in on that new release.
Caleb Cole [00:01:39]:
That was when life was a simpler time, Brandon. It is the vhs days. Going to blockbuster on a Friday night.
Brandon Miller [00:01:46]:
That's right.
Caleb Cole [00:01:48]:
I miss those days. But hey, we've now aged ourselves. But that's okay. We're so glad to be able to have these conversations. Thank you to everyone who's been engaging with us on this Men Of Faith podcast. Our mofs out there. We have been doing this man for a few months now and having a blast with you, Brandon. Loving the feedback we've been getting.
Caleb Cole [00:02:10]:
And I want to encourage you guys, if you didn't hear, we are on YouTube now. So you can go to Project Church Sacramento. Search that on YouTube. And we have a podcast tab. You can watch all these as well, or you can listen on Spotify or iTunes. So do us a favor. Leave us a review. Subscribe to the YouTube channel.
Caleb Cole [00:02:28]:
You can also follow us on Instagram on Men Of Faith pod. And then we are posting new clips whenever a new podcast comes out, which is every other Friday. So excited to jump in here today as we help the men that are listening become all that they're meant to be as followers of God, as men of God, and as Men Of Faith in today's world. And so we have a topic that I believe Brandon is probably difficult for some of us. Maybe some of us are still holding on to a lack of this. And this is the topic of forgiveness, the f word. So today we're going to talk about the f word, and that is forgiveness. I know that for me, I've had individuals in my life, people in my life, seasons of my life, where forgiveness was harder.
Caleb Cole [00:03:21]:
There were people in my life that were harder to forgive. We've all been wronged, hurt, betrayed, maybe even stabbed in the back. And so I want us to just talk Brandon today about, like, all the facets of forgiveness, the difficulty of ithood, the freedom that comes with it, because this is a word that probably we need to talk about more in the church, because I think ultimately, there's a lot of us holding on to things that we shouldn't be.
Brandon Miller [00:03:47]:
Yeah. You know, this is one that over the years, both as a vocational minister in my twenties, and then just someone who has served youth ministry throughout my thirties into my forties, and just being around people who have unburdened themselves with some sort of offense against them, something that occurred, something that was wounding them, and trying to gain some understanding of what do I do with this? What do I do with this hurt, this pain, this challenge? And early on in my journey of learning about this, both one who would ask and receive forgiveness, but one who would extend it, it was trying to get down to the root of what is it? What does it mean to forgive? Because sometimes I think that this idea that my forgiveness means I forget or my forgiveness means that I have to restore back to where we were. And at its core, I think learning that forgiveness is the release of the debt. If I were to steal from you, a, you knew that I stole it, but then I went and spent it. Technically speaking, I owe you a debt, right? I owe you this hundred dollars. And if you were to say to me, Brandon, I forgive you for the $100, then I don't owe you $100 anymore. You have forgiven me the debt, right? It's forgiven. Now, you may not trust me anywhere near your wallet again.
Brandon Miller [00:05:18]:
You may not want to do business with me again. You may not want to even be friends with me again. All of that is not connected to the fact that you forgave me the debt. I don't owe you anymore. And I think sometimes, because we pack so much of the emotion and the offense and the injury, and it makes it hard to just release the debt.
Caleb Cole [00:05:40]:
That'S a hard one to think about. You know, the reality of how much our pain and our hurt and our emotion kind of traps all that and ultimately withholds what we don't believe people are deserving of. And it really comes down to that, right? Like, you don't deserve my forgiveness. Like, you don't deserve me to let go of that debt because you owe me. And yet that's, like, the foundation of the gospel, is that we actually don't get what we deserve. Like, we deserve death for our sin and our selfishness and our pride and all that we do to inflict ultimately, like, harm on other human beings and pain on other people. I mean, all of us are guilty of this. There's levels to it, but we're all guilty of it.
Caleb Cole [00:06:32]:
And yet the gospel is that you actually get what you don't deserve, which is grace. And it's not because of what you did. It's because of what he did. And so I think that so much of our humanity is tied to justice. We are justice people. What is just and what is just is that you would pay the piper, right? You would pay the price. If you wrong me, you must, in turn, be wronged. And so letting go of a debt for giving a debt, it's just not natural for us as human beings.
Caleb Cole [00:07:06]:
I mean, it's counterintuitive to us. It's counter to what I even want to do in my flesh. I do not want to let someone off the hook for what they've done. Justice must be paid, and I deserve it. And they deserve to pay the price for it.
Brandon Miller [00:07:22]:
Yeah. And I'll tell you what. You're not wrong, right? That feeling is founded and rooted in truth, meaning, because of the injustice, it is true. We can ascribe a value to the injustice. We have the ability. We have the cognitive ability to hold a grudge, to want to take revenge. We have the ability of all species on earth. We can remember wrongs for a lifetime.
Brandon Miller [00:07:50]:
We can remember a wrong and want to do justice because of the wrong. And what you just said is so counterintuitive to us that in exchange for my wrongs done against God, he removed what I owe him. I remember having to go to the Torah, right, the system of how God made a way for forgiveness. And it was literally, I had to bring a payment in the form of the currency of that time. I had to bring my goods, my livestock, my contribution. And so you could say the people of the time paid for their debt. They had to pay for forgiveness. There was an exchange that took place, and then God said, boom, you now are forgiven.
Brandon Miller [00:08:45]:
And so it cracks our brain when we go, all right, so we're not all carting our cattle. You know, Caleb's up there with the. With the butcher knife, you know, next slitting thrice, letting it run all over. I mean, do you ever think about the bloody mess that had this smells in there? The thousands and thousands of livestock being butchered, right? Rizzarite, Darren. Just the flames and all the thing going along, but literally they paid for it. So when I choose to believe in Jesus and I take this mountain of sin that I literally owe him, and I present it, and he's like, debt, page, you owe me nothing. How? I didn't. I didn't have to give you something.
Brandon Miller [00:09:28]:
Oh, don't worry. That sacrifice was done, right? That's what the cross is, is the final and forever sacrifice. It so breaks us, skews us. So then when we go, well, how do now you and me apply that same concept to people? That's the rub, right? How do I take what I received and turn and give it to others? Yeah.
Caleb Cole [00:09:52]:
I mean, I think Jesus touches on this so much in his teaching. I'm thinking about Matthew six when he's like, hey, forgive or you won't be forgiven. There's story after story that Jesus tells about forgiving, and he uses money often to, like, to equate it or to prove the point.
Brandon Miller [00:10:11]:
We get money. Currency we get because it's tangible. We can hold it. We can spend it. The people even that day were like, oh, well, we get money.
Caleb Cole [00:10:19]:
I'm thinking of the parable where he talks about a servant who owes his master a small amount. And then the servant file, or the master finally goes, you know what? I'm going to forgive your debt. And then that same servant goes out and finds the person that owes them, like, a dollar and has them thrown in prison because they won't pay it. And then Jesus obviously, is equating this to our lack of forgiveness. It's like, oh, you want to hold other people hostage for the little that they've done against you, but you are willing to receive the grace and forgiveness for the much that you owe. And I think that that's the reality of our human plight, because I'm actually good with God giving me grace for all my sin and mess and mistakes, and I'm like, raise the roof. Praise the Lord. Like, he took it on himself on the cross.
Caleb Cole [00:11:11]:
Like, let's go. I walk in that grace I walk in that free gift of the Lord. But then when it comes to now, me having to forgive a debt, even if it's small, I'm like, nah, nah, throw him in prison. He won't pay me. Justice must be served. And I'm like, I'm just like the story of this servant. I'm just like him, and I want to execute justice. Even though I'm willing to receive grace, I'm just not always quick to give it.
Caleb Cole [00:11:39]:
And so this is a challenge for us when it comes to forgiveness, because the reality is it's easy to talk about it like this, but when I'm really hurt by somebody, my biblical worldview suddenly goes out the window of like, but Jesus paid for all my debt. I should forgive this one debt, but it's like, but I'm hurt. I was betrayed. Like, how dare they do this to me? And then my pride rises up, and then that's why I'm like, all right, we gotta figure this out. Somebody's got to pay for this. And so I think that's the rub for me, is when my emotion gets in the midst of my biblical worldview, and sometimes I throw the biblical worldview out the window because my emotion is, is just more loud in my head. And I want to be a forgiving person, but I'm not always right.
Brandon Miller [00:12:30]:
You know, I'll tell you this one, in terms of the big word, if you mentioned Matthew six, and this is one of those verses that used to just really cause me pause, really caused me to stop and think. And it's, if you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly father will forgive you. It's a strong statement he made because it's one of the, you know, places in the gospel where you go, wow, that's a huge exchange. Huge exchange. I'm getting here because if I were to add up all of the offenses I have done to the 600 plus laws throughout the scriptures, not counting the ones Jesus said, oh, you think that's hard? Even look at them that way and you've done this. You think that's hard to even say that to them? And you've done this, right? Like, this is like, who can live to this standard? And then he says, but if you refuse to forgive, then it's not yours. And it's one of those, you go, yay. That's a tense moment, right? That's a.
Brandon Miller [00:13:29]:
Whoa. So you put a ton of weight. So then, you know, later on, Peter's like, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. How many times? Give me a limit. Like, if a guy sins against me and keeps coming back, and so that whole 77 times, you made an extreme number for him, and yet, you know, I can go further into the Bible and find all the places where he says, like, first, john, if you confess your sin, he's faithful. And just to forgive you your sin cleanse you, right? And I go, man, if you told Peter that a human would do 70 times seven, man, so you're willing to give me that level? Like, as many times as I fail. I get that because I believe Caleb. If we do not get just the sheer, you know, magnitude of our forgiveness, like, what we are getting here, like this exchange, I think what you just said, and I've experienced it, too, then all of a sudden, we get heavy with ours.
Brandon Miller [00:14:30]:
Like, you don't know how bad that was. You don't know how offensive that was. You don't know how deep, you don't know how much they owe me. And so I feel like forgiveness is one of those topics that until we fully really sit in and go, what did I get? And what do I keep getting in this relationship? Because without that in mind, boy, is it easy to hold on to the thing that we've been wronged with.
Caleb Cole [00:14:54]:
Jeff, as you were talking about that the mindset shift, it actually kind of triggered for me that we would break off the victim mentality that I think is rampant in our culture. But I actually heard, I don't know who said this, so I can't quote them, but they said, as a follower of Christ, we've actually given up our right to be offended. And ultimately, like, the gospel is the greatest offense to the world, right? And scripture tells us this, but we are giving up our rights when we choose to follow Christ, lay down our life, pick up our cross, follow him. We need to lay down the right to be offended. And I think for many of us, it's become our right. Like, as Americans, one of my inalienable rights is that I can be offended, and I'm going to be offended at everything and anything. And we are offended culture right now. And I've look in the church at how many people.
Caleb Cole [00:15:53]:
I mean, there are a lot of people, even in our church that I'm like, why are you so easily offended? You're an offendable person. You're offended by everything. Like, I greet you the wrong way, like, I say, oh, what's up? And you think I shouldn't give you a high five as a pastor, that I should shake your hand? That's offensive now, like, crazy stuff that we have chosen to be an offended people and as men of God and Men Of Faith, like, we have to give up our rights to be offended. I'm not saying that you won't be offended because ultimately, like, you're human and your feelings and emotions can get in the way. But I'm gonna choose to, as much as I can, to not allow offense to be something that I pick up, because an offense is something you pick up and put on. And I'm going to actually lay down an offense. I'm not going to pick it up. I'm going to say, you know what? Maybe that was an offensive thing to say, an offensible act, but I'm not going to pick it up because I don't want to carry that.
Caleb Cole [00:16:52]:
I don't want to carry. It's a weight of, and I think of all the people that are walking around so offended, and they're in the weight of offense and how sad it is that they've become victims in this world and we're meant to be a people that lay down offense and pick up forgiveness. As Jesus said, you're dealing it.
Brandon Miller [00:17:14]:
Because if I do not fully, completely and entirely perceive myself as the offender, if I do not embrace that, I'm the violator, I'm the criminal, I'm the offender, I'm the offensive one. And in exchange for how deeply, thoroughly and utterly I have offended, and I'm not treated that way. I'm not received that way. I'm not accepted that way. If that doesn't regularly transmit, then goodness gracious, right? It's so easy to be offended. It is so easy to be the one who's offended, right? Because, man, if you're looking for offense, friends, you will find it every single time. If you are even open to offense, you will find it every single day. A day will not go by that you are not offended by someone.
Brandon Miller [00:18:19]:
And in all the love I can say this today, the problem is not them. Because if you're walking around as a forgiven son of God, if you were that prodigal father, I have sinned against heaven and I've sinned against you, and I'm not even worthy to be called your son. And he put a ring on your finger and a robe on your back and said, kill the fattened calf for my son. I know this is rough, and I know that thing irritated me, and I'm. I'm saying something to you today that I'm living through, just like you said earlier. This is not me calling anyone out today. I'm calling up all of us. Me, I have recently been offended by something, and in my offense, it is hard to separate the offense from the offender and realize I don't have to like what was done.
Brandon Miller [00:19:05]:
I don't have to condone what's done. I don't have to in any way. But I can separate that and realize that if I carry the weight of unforgiveness and the anger and the bitterness of that, it's not even them that suffering anymore. It's me. I'm the one suffering now because I'm carrying something that's creating a space here where this is hard. Now I'm struggling with God.
Caleb Cole [00:19:30]:
There's a quote. I don't know who said it, but I heard it said that unforgiveness locks in pain and locks out God. And that has been something that's always, like, resonated in my mind, that not only are we locking in the pain of the hurt or the offense, but we're also locking out God from healing it, touching it, from helping break off the chain of bondage that we find ourselves into it, and then our identity becomes that offense, that anger that we have towards that person. Now, I think you said something great, which I just want to touch on for a moment, which is we don't excuse the behavior, and it doesn't mean that we don't address the behavior. I think sometimes, especially in the passivity of men, that we go, oh, I just got to forgive. Don't say anything. Don't bring it up. Don't call them out.
Caleb Cole [00:20:26]:
No, no, no. Hold up a second. I can forgive you and still tell you, hey, that was out of pocket. That was wrong. That was hurtful. I can tell them how it made me feel. I don't think that was godly. In fact, that's healthy conflict resolution.
Caleb Cole [00:20:40]:
And so we don't even have to keep that person in our life, to be honest. It could be a person. We go, you're too toxic to have my life. I'm gonna cut you out. But I'm not gonna hold on to the bitterness of or unforgiveness, because I know what that's going to do to me. It's actually hurting me. And that's what we've said about unforgiveness too, right? Is wishing ill on the other person, but you're actually holding in, you're poisoning yourself. And so we have to address it.
Caleb Cole [00:21:07]:
Undress, unhealthy behavior. But then we let go, we forgive. We say, I'm not going to hold this offense or want some level of justice to be paid by that person for the wrong that they did to us. No, I'm going to let go. I'm going to give it to God. I. I think it's interesting, actually, Matthew six, I was just looking at it and it's like, actually Jesus says this right after giving them the Lord's prayer. And I never noticed that.
Caleb Cole [00:21:33]:
I mean, I guess I've seen it, but it never really connected to me that Jesus is like, okay, this is how you should pray and then forgive people. Like, that's the follow up to prayer is now, obviously we need to be praying for the people that have hurt us too, because that's one great way to be able to release and let go of what's been done to us. But I felt like it's like Jesus going, all right, now pray all these things and ask in my name. Oh, but then make sure you're forgiving because if you don't forgive, really like these prayers, I feel like it's like he was saying, you're gonna just run into a wall with your prayers if you're not forgiving. Cause I'm not gonna forgive you and then I can't hear you.
Brandon Miller [00:22:10]:
When you think about that prayer as you're describing the Lord's prayer, this is the one time Jesus on record saying, this is how you pray, right? This is how you do this. This is how you talk to God. Here's how I'm going to show you how you talk to me and write in that prayer right after, you know, hallowed be your name, exalting his name and your kingdom come, his sovereignty and will, right and asking for the things. But right in there, forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass or whatever. Translation, it's right in there. Forgive as I forgive. And so, right in the prayer God knew to tell us, right in a prayer, you're going to have to ask for help on this one. This is going to be divine.
Brandon Miller [00:22:52]:
You're going to have to include this in the daily because you are not going to do this. Well, this is going to be hard because you're not me. I remember in psalms where God says that he has the power to forget, right? He has the power to decide to not remember. We have not been given that in our natural selves. We remember, especially offense. It grooves deep in our brain, right? So in that one, you know, I see that one too. And it's one that I go, whoa, man, I need help. And part of the call up today is if we're carrying that burden right where we know I got a fence.
Brandon Miller [00:23:28]:
I'm 100% in line with you. You don't have to agree with it. You don't have to like it. You can call it out. You can call it out in love, and I'll tell you, calling out in love and calling out an anger and one or the other, boy, it has a really different way that can go. But getting to the point of acknowledging, right there, built in, is the acknowledgement that this one's hard and we do need help to get to this point and seeing it for what it is.
Caleb Cole [00:23:53]:
That'S hilarious to me, that it's the Lord's prayer. Forgive us our debts as we have forgiven our debtors. And then a verse later. So, seriously, if you don't forgive people, you're not going to be forgiven. It's like Jesus just going, no, no, I taught you how to pray it. Now you really need to do it. Okay? Don't just pray it. Do it.
Caleb Cole [00:24:13]:
Like, I can pray spiritual prayers, and I've prayed some very eloquent prayers, but is my heart doing what I'm praying? You know, is my heart submitted to God in humility the way that he's calling it to be? And I can think of no more humbling act than forgiving people who are trash. You know, forgiving people who treat me like crap and have hurt me and betray me and stab me in the back and wronged me. And then I have to let it go. I have to forgive them for it. There is no more humbling act. Like, I can't think of a more humbling act. And yet this is the power of the humility of our savior, Jesus, that he did just that. These people, these wretched people, us, who have wronged him, gone against him, mocked him, betrayed him, beaten him, crucified him.
Caleb Cole [00:25:10]:
And he says as he's on the cross, father, forgive them, for they don't know what they're doing, crying out for forgiveness. I mean, the humility that and the love that that takes, and that's what I think we're coming to is like, forgiveness is an act of humility, and it's an act of love, and that's hard for us. I think that's the call up.
Brandon Miller [00:25:30]:
Yeah, it is. And I would say this, if you're listening today, and, man, hearing these words, and you're just. You feel the internal turmoil. You feel the reaction inside of you. That's a time to reach out to a brother that's a time to go and say, I can't get this one on my own. I can't get there. And it's true that for some of us it's deep. These are wounds that, that have been there, some of us since childhood.
Brandon Miller [00:25:54]:
We can't get to it and we need help and it is reasonable and it is healthy and helpful to get help because we don't want to leave you in a mess. Jesus had to repeat it because he also knew how hard it is. He also knew, like, you're going to need help here. You're going to need me to intervene and get you to where you're trying to go with this one. So I'm, I'm with you, Caleb. Like, take it serious, right? And then reach out, especially someone who has gotten past it. I know people that have gone to people who are also in the same place and the council isn't always great. Like, yeah, I'd be mad, too.
Brandon Miller [00:26:30]:
I'd be wanting to take action, too, instead of, yeah, let's. Let's break this down. Let's try to break this down to get you to where you can forgive and you can lead with love. Because the only way Jesus says that on the cross is he had to lead with love. He had to lead with, you know, where he was still connected to the bind.
Caleb Cole [00:26:47]:
It's good. So I think that's the call of today, is choose to be like Jesus, obey his commands to forgive. And ultimately that could play out in a lot of different ways for you. So I would say some of you just need to go to the Lord, ask for strength to forgive. Some of you need to reach out to someone today and maybe say, hey, we need to talk. We need to have a conversation. I've been holding on to something. We don't always have to talk to the person.
Caleb Cole [00:27:10]:
Sometimes we're unable to. Maybe they've passed away, you know, but we can go to the Lord and ask for his strength. Cause he will strengthen us to forgive. And so any of you out there, you men who are maybe holding on to some unforgiveness, he will give you the strength to forgive. His spirit is in us and he will empower us to do what may seem impossible for you. And maybe you've been holding on to something for far too long, but I'm telling you, this is obedience, this is humility and this is being like Jesus. And that's our goal here. So thanks for tuning into the Men Of Faith podcast, Brandon.
Caleb Cole [00:27:43]:
It was a pleasure once again. Check us out, Spotify, iTunes, and YouTube. We're coming out with a new episode every other Friday. It's been a blast hanging with you guys today. So hey, be kind, rewind and forgive. Grace and peace, y'all. Thanks for listening to Men Of Faith. If you got questions you'd like us to talk about on the show, we'd love to hear from you.
Caleb Cole [00:28:13]:
Join the conversation by reaching out in the Facebook group and we will definitely add it to our list. Also, if you want to engage with us at any of our quarterly men's events, you can check out projectchurch.com for more information. Until next time, grace and peace.