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In this episode of the Side Quest Podcast, we delve back into the world of Roshar after almost a year. We discuss Brandon Sanderson's writing journey, the complexity of the magic system, and the character development of Kaladin and Shallan. We also discuss Shalon's character, her traumatic past, and the impact of her experiences on her identity.
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(00:00) Intro
(01:05) Exploring Roshar: Trauma and Healing
(00:00) Intro
(01:05) Exploring Roshar: Trauma and Healing
(03:06) Diving into Words of Radiance
(06:43) Brandon Sanderson: The Author's Journey
(10:24) The Evolution of the Stormlight Archives
(12:35) Recap of The Way of Kings
(15:00) Sanderson's Writing Process and Worldbuilding
(18:59) Characters and Their Development
(24:10) Dalinar's Vision and Political Intrigue
(30:05) Shallan's Growth and the Role of Spren
(34:25) The Impact of Death and Loss in the Narrative
(39:49) Shallan's Dark Past and Its Impact
(42:28) Survival and Growth on the Beach
(45:55) Character Development and Relatability
(46:56) Interlude Insights and Character Connections
(52:52) Understanding Stormlight and Shardblades
(56:39) Cultural Inspirations Behind the Parshendi
(01:01:56) Themes of Identity and Trauma in Stormlight
Creators and Guests
What is The Side Quest Book Club Podcast?
Join Slava and Jonathan as they discuss the books they are reading. Explore world-building, characters, and story development—and share some laughs along the way. Side Quest Book Club — a literary adventure podcast.
Jonathan (00:12.782)
Good afternoon and good night, wherever you're tuning in. We are Slava and Jonathan, bringing you the SideQuest podcast, where we talk about character development, stories, and all things that are world building. And we occasionally take SideQuests, because frankly, that's how conversations work. Just as a reminder, this whole show is spoiler heavy. So sit back, tune in, and join us on this episode of SideQuest.
Good morning, Jonathan.
Good morning, Slava.
We are back on Roshar for fun and adventure. Trauma, healing, processing of past hurts. Patricide. By usual.
no longer being
Jonathan (01:05.644)
Maybe some patricide? Don't you mean... Never mind, that's in book three.
and Mattricide. We actually get both in this book.
Yes, that's true. Little bit of column A, little bit of column B. Look at me, I'm already stopping myself from spoilers.
Yes, you are. Although I've started book three, I'm somewhere in chapter 10, but I put it down.
Somewhere in chapter the prologue in the first sentence. I know, because it's been too long.
Slava (01:31.511)
I don't remember any of it.
I had to re-familiarize myself with this book because it's been October since I finished it of last year. And we're now in February, almost March when recording. been a minute.
Yes. And I think I told the audience, but I released Slava to go wander about the Cosmere reading to his heart's content. However, he has to take copious notes if he's going to do that to get the initial reaction he had when he was reading it. Also said, I told him he shouldn't jump into book three. He should go read Mistborn because Mistborn is more relevant for the remainder of the Stormland archives.
due to the fact that things happen there and there's crossover. Did he listen? No. No. No audience. He didn't. But in normal Islamofashion, he'll go read it and then he'll figure out all the things that he missed. And then when he does a reread, he'll realize he missed even more things and the self-loathing will just grow. So we're all along the road.
on of this adventure.
Jonathan (02:43.18)
This is not a therapy session, okay? So sit down and open a book.
and refrain from murdering parents.
Well, you do what you gotta do.
Anyway, people, if you haven't guessed by now, we are in Words of Radiance by Brandon Sanderson. Yes, we have read this before. I've read parts of it twice now. And the book has words in it. It says this is the second book in the Stormlight Archives.
and the book has words in
Jonathan (03:13.198)
So there's more words and there's more Stormlight.
There are lot of words, as one would expect with Brandon Sanderson. But a quick summary for new listeners, for those who haven't even heard of Brandon Sanderson or the Cosmere. I'll read the back flap of the book. Six years ago, the assassin in white, a hireling of the inscrutable Prashendi, assassinated the Alethi king on the very night a treaty between men and Prashendi was being celebrated.
So began the vengeance pact among the High Princes of Althkar and the war reckoning against the Prashendi. Now, the assassin is active again, murdering rulers all over the world, using his baffling powers to tort every bodyguard and elude all pursuers. Among his prime targets is High Prince Dalinar, widely considered the power behind the Lethe throne. His leading role in the war?
would seem reason enough, but the assassin's master has much deeper motives. Expected by his enemies to die the miserable death of a military slave, Kaladin survived to be given command of the royal bodyguards, a controversial first for a low-status Dark Eyes. Now he must protect the king and Dalinar from every common peril as well as the distinctly uncommon threat of the assassin in white.
all while secretly struggling to master remarkable new powers that are somehow linked to his honor-spren, Sill. Then we have brilliant but troubled Shalon, who strives along a parallel path. Despite being broken in ways she refuses to acknowledge, she bears a terrible burden to somehow prevent the return of the legendary void-bringers and their civilization-ending desolation. The secrets she needs?
Slava (05:10.744)
can be found at the Shattered Plains, but even arriving there proves more difficult than she imagined. Meanwhile, at the heart of the Shattered Plains, the Prashendi are making an epical decision. Hard pressed by years of Alethi attacks, their numbers ever shrinking, they are convinced by their war leader, Eshenai, to risk everything on a desperate gamble with the very supernatural forces they once fled.
The consequences for Prashendi and humans alike, indeed for Roshar itself, are as dangerous as they are incalculable. And so begins the second adventure in our quest through Roshar.
Stormlight Archives, book two, the words of radiance. Today we're diving into the first section of chapters, the prologue and interludes one through four. This is going to be a 10 part series, just like the Way of Kings was. And we will have a guest episode at the end. We might scatter some in the middle if schedules align, which will be fun. Yeah, I've been waiting, hungering.
desiring to get back to this book and series because there's just so much richness that could happen here. But I won't tarry too long on the intro. Slava, give us a quick overview of Brandon and then I will talk about how he came up with this idea a little bit and then we'll just jump right in.
He was born in December of 1975 in Lincoln, Nebraska. As a child, enjoyed reading, but he lost interest in the types of titles often suggested to him. And by junior high, he never cracked a book, if you could help it. This all changed eighth grade when an astute teacher, Mrs. Reader, ha ha, gave Brandon Dragon's Bane by Barbara Hambly. Brandon thoroughly enjoyed this book and went in search of
Slava (07:12.512)
anything similar. discovered authors such as Robert Jordan, Melanie Rahn, David Eddings, and Anne McCaffey, and good old Orson Scott Card. Branton continued to be an avid reader through junior high and high school. He enjoyed epic fantasy so much that he even tried his hand at writing some. And according to him, his first attempts were dreadful.
In 94, Brandon enrolled in Brigham Young University as a biochemistry major, but from 1995 to 97, he took time away from his studies to serve as a missionary for the Mormon church. Brandon often says that it was during this time in Seoul, Korea that he realized he did a mischemistry one bit. Don't blame him, but he did miss writing. Upon his return to Brigham Young, Brandon became an English major, much to the dismay of his mother.
who, as all mothers apparently, always hoped he would become a doctor. And so he began writing in earnest, taking a job as a night desk clerk at the hotel because they allowed him to write while at work. During this era, he went to school full-time during the day, worked nights to pay for his schooling, and wrote as much as he could. He says it made for a rather dismal social life, but he finished seven novels during his undergraduate years. Yeah.
Good lord. How many novels have you finished?
I haven't even finished my short story. That's right. In 2004, after graduating with a master's degree in creative writing from Brigham Young, was asked to teach the class he had taken as an undergrad student from Dave Farland. In spite of his busy schedule, Brandon continues to teach creative writing focused on science fiction and fantasy. We know him, I know him, primarily from Warbreaker and the Stormlight Archives here. So, Way of Kings.
Jonathan (09:04.97)
and Shadows for Silence in the Forest of Hell, which was a short story that helped kick off this SideQuest podcast. But I didn't know that his mom wanted to be a doctor. So really what I'm learning is that the story of Kaladin is the story of Brandon.
In 2003, while Brandon was in the middle of graduate program, he got a call from Moshe Federer at Tor who wanted to buy one of Brandon's books. Sanderson had submitted the manuscript a year earlier or a year and a half earlier and had almost given up here anything. So he's apprised and delighted to receive the offer. And May 2005, Brandon held his first published novel, Elantris, in his hands.
Over the next two years, Tor also published Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy, its follow-up, The Alloy of Law, Warbreaker, and the one and only Way of Kings. Words of Radiance was released on March 4, 2014.
That's all true. got into Sanderson just before Oathbringer came out, probably about a year before Oathbringer came out. So Oathbringer came out I think in 2017, is that right? I assume you're looking at a screen.
Okay.
Slava (10:24.152)
Sounds right.
I am looking on the screen, it doesn't mention that, but given the years in between the publishings that are mentioned here, that sounds about right.
Yes, November. I was right. We were right. Anyway, so yeah, I, it was really nice to be able to go wave Kings words of radiance and then straight into oath bringer by just a couple of months. What sucked was when oath bringer was over and you're like, well now what? But we don't have to worry about that yet. Cause we are only on words of radiance. A quick note about how Brandon came up with this idea. Cause you heard a little bit more about his journey to becoming a writer.
I see how it's right.
Jonathan (11:05.87)
In 2002, one of those novels that Brandon wrote was Wavekings Prime. Even though the book had great ideas, he felt it was too ambitious and not ready. So after gaining more experience with Mistborn and Elantris, he rewrote it from the ground up, turning it into the Stormlight archives that we know today. And I haven't read the Wavekings Prime, but I know of some of the details. It is a 1000 % different story.
The characters are the same. Well, that's not even entirely true because Aelon didn't exist in Way of Kings Prime. Taln, which is a herald in the canon version, was like the main character, but he was too powerful. From what I've heard from others, it's not a great story. It's fun because we have a great story. And so you can look back and go, this is where like the idea in early stages was at. Similar to...
archaeologists going up and digging up bones from the past. You can go, this is what it was like way early on. And you can see the development of the themes, which is fun because we have a really good published set of novels. It's not fun if you've never heard of the guy before and you've only ever peeked at the Way of Kings Prime.
Well, do you love books, audience? Do you love this podcast? Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review so you never miss an episode.
And for those just joining, if you have read Way of Kings, you'll know everything that I'm about to say. And if you haven't, then you probably want to go read it, or you're going to be lost. I don't suggest book two of the Stormlight Archives as a starting point. So here's a quick recap about the Way of Kings. Roshar is a world of war, storms and shattered history. The almighty Oethi, armies wage a brutal war on the Shattered Plains, seeking vengeance for their assassinated king.
Jonathan (13:04.94)
But beneath the politics and the bloodshed, an ancient conflict is awakening. Kaladin, once a surgeon's son turned slave, rises to become the leader of Bridge 4, defying fate and discovering his abilities to harness Stormlight, a power once wielded by the Lost Knights Radiant. Shalondevar, a noble woman with a talent for art and secrets, seeks out the scholar Yasnako-Lyn.
only to uncover shocking truths about the Voidbringers and her own hidden abilities. Dalinar Kolin, the king's uncle, and a war-hardened general becomes receiving cryptic visions of the past, urging him to unite the kingdom before coming disaster. His belief in honor and unity puts him at odds with the corrupt high princes around him. Zeth Sunsun-Velano, the truthless of Shinnifar,
Assassin in white murders King Gavilar Kolin using an otherworldly power, one that should have died with the night's radiant. Now bound to serve a new master, he continues his deadly work, unaware that his actions are just the beginning of a much greater storm. As the way of kings ends, Roshar stands at the brink of upheaval. Kaladin has been freed from slavery, but must now protect Dalinar.
Shalan is on the run after unlocking her own hidden past, and Dalinar, armed with ancient knowledge, is determined to restore the lost Radiance before it's too late. Now, Words of Radiance picks up right where the storm left off, here on SideQuest.
Well, Jonathan, let's take a little bit of a side quest and talk about what we find most interesting about Sanderson's writing process. I have my answer, but I'll wait for to go first.
Jonathan (15:00.686)
It's the world building and the character development. And the only reason that these are so good is because he has a group of beta readers. And I think he also has alpha readers to be like, Hey, how's this sit? When did you get bored? And that gives him highlights as a writer and an author to go, Oh, I need to go back to chapters three, seven, and 12, because these don't make sense to people. And so then as a like master chef, if you will.
He says, okay, let me fix these up so that it still has a cohesive feel, but those parts don't feel like a slog or people lose interest or whatever. Well, all still juggling the fact that he's trying to drip little bits of information about the Cosmere itself, which spans like 29 books right now.
So my answer is the second part of your answer. I have never heard of somebody having so many beta readers and so many people looking at a writer's work. And he gives people who know things about war, for example, the soldiers would read portions where he's describing how does a soldier act in this situation, how would a person with this type of mental, not disability, but
a struggle, let's say, would trudge through a particular situation. How would she or he react in these situations, having this, you know, disorder or having this struggle in their life? So first time I'm hearing about it, I've heard of authors doing extensive research and talking to experts and subject matter experts in all sorts of industries and studies and
medical professions and then bring that in and writing characters, which works out fine, I guess, for many of them. But the extent to which he goes to build his worlds, I think, well, it was new to me, but I think it's exceptional.
Jonathan (17:03.702)
Yeah, and that's why I pushed you to like give fantasy a chance because it's not like it was when you know the books from the 80s and stuff like that. So also quick correction on myself. It's 26 published books, novellas and short stories, not 29. So off by a little bit.
You mentioned something in your answer to the foreshadowing, like in the continuity across the Cosmere. Now I'm a noob. Like I've read four Sanderson books and two of them are Cosmere specific. I love when you get to use your word again, little drips of information, little sinew, connecting sinew throughout many books. King does this. He doesn't do it to this extent.
but there are characters that wind up even in short stories. Like we both read Ur, people from people. Well, sometimes, you can't really call them people. Characters from the Dark Tower series, which I haven't read, but I know this because I've done research, but characters from the Dark Tower show up in Ur, and it's a short story in an anthology. So when authors do that, I, man, I nerd out, I love it.
It's fun, right? It feels more like real life because sometimes you have people who come into your life and then later they come back into your life or something happens earlier in your life and you're like, it's the future now and something else has happened. It is a throwback if you will, or like a, what's the word people use? A, not soliloquy, what's the word? Not symbiosis, serendipity. Serendipity, as they say, serendipity.
there it is, yes.
Jonathan (18:46.156)
Be sure to drop us a rating and help us spread the word if you're enjoying today's SideQuest. Slava, give us the first section from Prologue to Chapter 3. Let's start talking about it.
Alright, we have Jasna who is on her way to have somebody killed. Find out that it's her sister-in-law. She leaves the feast where they're celebrating and singing of the Lethe Treaty with the Prescendi. On her way to this clandestine meeting, she notices her shadow pointing the wrong way. The shadow turns to normal, but she is disconcerted. On her way to the assassin, she meets Sadius,
She meets her father talking to Amoram and then eventually she gets pulled into Shadesmar for a moment. When she comes back, she decides not to kill her sister-in-law but instead makes sure that the assassin only watches. Chapter 1, we go back to my girl, Shalon, sketching Shadesmar aboard Tozbek's ship. The winds' pleasure. And the next chapter...
We have Kaladin, we're back with him. He is riding out the high storm. The Bridge 4 crew, they visit a tattooist. The tattoo artist sets about covering their slave brands with tattoos of freedom. The only one it doesn't take because of his storm light is Kaladin's. And we get to meet Shalan Spren, who is called Pattern. Shalan sits in her cabin on the winds pleasure, reading a book written by Asna about Warrenism.
and the recreants and its effect on the documentation of history. Pattern shows up, I think this is the second time we're seeing him actually, but Pattern shows up, this time in the cabin wall, vanishing when she looks directly at him. And Shalan notes the similarity between Pattern and the symbol-headed creatures she has seen previously. This is where Jasnah explains more to Shalan about the Night's Radiance and the orders explaining that they're sorecasting.
Slava (20:54.466)
both of them can still cast if you remember from book one is a shared surge but that their orders are not the same judging by their different spread.
yeah. Now let's pause on the night's radiant real quick, which they're not. They're not night's radiant yet, but they are on their way to be. What do you think about the system so far, the magic system?
It's complex enough for it to be interesting, fascinating in some ways, but it's also very logical, at least for my reading, my limited reading. I seem to be able to follow patterns, no pun intended, I can't think of any other words.
There you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's funny. He gives us this mystery of like slowly revealing powers, you know, and then also like, shoot, they've got overlap. What does that mean? You know, a bit of a religious and historical history of the world. You know, like the night's radiant used to be in Voronism. Then that was, there was a separation, which I would guess he probably ventured in taking some inspiration from the Crusades if I were to guess.
Yeah.
Jonathan (22:04.492)
To your point, it all feels logical. It feels like, there's a progression here. One of the things that's nice and unique about this book, oftentimes in stories where we come to main characters and like, they've already got their powers. They know how to use them and they saved the day, the main character. But we're going on a journey of like, what if they just got their powers? What if they don't know how to use them? They're kind of just fumbling around the dark, learning how to use this new muscle, if we could call it that.
And I think Sanderson excels in this, whereas of the previous book we read, Apocalypse Z, my main contention was we meet this guy and I understand why he has to be a little weak and a little out of his element when the zombies come. He's just a lawyer and he seems to have a cushy life. He goes scuba diving, but he is a wimp throughout the whole book. But here we understand why Caldons is morose all the time.
even if it might annoy some readers. understand why Shalon is so introverted in the sense that she, not extraversion versus introversion, but in a sense she hides within herself. avoids even thinking about the day that her father, surprise, not really her, killed her mother. We get that revealed in this book. And so we understand.
their weaknesses and we can go, Oh, okay. Well, that's understandable because you went through this traumatic fricking thing. And in the real world here, most people react like this to a traumatic event such as that. Right. And we also see growth. They're not stuck in this thing for seven books. It's a, yes, it's a gradual growth and it seems realistic, but there also is a grill.
you
Jonathan (23:51.948)
Yeah, to your point. We, and I think that that was a shared complaint with Apocalypse Z is there's no perceivable growth to make one last note to your point. It's a blog format. You wouldn't see progressive growth, but as a book you should. So formats matter. Anyway, back to Roshar.
So as we continue to chapters 4 through 6, chapter 4 is called the Taker of Secrets, here we have Dalinar experiencing another vision. He's describing how he's running through what he believes is to be the Pure Lake with about a dozen armed men, and he notes that they are clad in ancient leather armor. At first he's unsure they're running away from something or towards something until he notices a fortress.
apparently made completely out of onyx, which is very interesting. And he and his group meet with another, one that's led by a night radiant in deep red glow and plight. Dahlner does determine that his vision takes place before the requiem. Kaldin and the members of Bridge 4 listen to a cryer read Dahlner's proclamation.
Proclamation states that all gem hearts won in battle now belong to the King, and we see Calan then moving really quickly into the trust circle, because once at the King's palace, Calan is allowed to stay for a meeting consisting of Dalinar, King Ellicar, Adolin, Pavani, Renoran, and the rest of them. Meanwhile, Sadius sits in the front of an elaborate tailstone table with Oldbringer stuck through it.
and he thinks about how often he has lusted after the weapon. So, Sadius being Sadius. As we move into chapter six, called the Terrible Destruction, Shallon sits on the deck of the Wind's Pleasure, bundled up because of the cold, she's observing, taking notes on the complex geometric spren, who has she named Pattern. And Pattern asks about the concept of food and replies, terrible destruction, when Shallon describes eating.
Slava (26:02.7)
which I really like pattern. He is really, really fu-
He's a fun comic relief to contrast Shallan's confused and yet morose curiosity.
Yeah.
Slava (26:18.956)
Yeah, yeah. then Shalan, Shalan, I'm going to call her both versions because that's my brain how it works. So Shalan heads back to deck to her cabin and she gets caught up in her research hours go by spheres getting dim. She's feeling satisfied before Shalan leaves to go back to her room. Yasna gives her a book that contains information of the order of light weavers. The book is called
Dun dun dun. Words are radiance. Anchelon goes to sleep, planning to read the book in the morning. But she's awoken by screams, shouts, and smoke.
One more thing that I love, and you're going to hear a lot of this sentence and thoughts, is writing a story with books in the world and libraries in the world about topics in the world and then naming your book after that book. Just very fun, very fun.
That's the hook, right? It's one of the hooks in this where you are reading the only way I know I've used this term like numerous times recently, just, or maybe it's apt, maybe it's just the way my stupid brain works, but it creates sinew between all the layers. So you're reading words of radiance, but there's a book in the book that's also called word of radiance. And I don't think it's kitschy. I don't think it's just, you know, a cliche or a trope or overdone. think.
the way Sanderson makes it happen is fantastic. Because then that's the title of the book is the central object aspect, you name it, of the story in the book you're reading. Correct.
Jonathan (28:02.924)
which is so much fun.
Yeah. And I think I mentioned this, but it's worth mentioning again, growth and characters. like how this book starts out with Shallan, you know, getting more and more confident in stating things and not being as sheepish as she has been in Way of Kings. Yeah. Especially in later chapters where she has to pretend that she is a of higher noble birth than she really is. And she says some things that are true. She's, you know, she's betrothed to Adolin, all that stuff. So.
Yes. Well, she, you know, she's out in the real world. She was sheltered for years, you know, on some backwater country in town that required her to just be this, you know, pious. feel like pious is a fine word. Young gal who was, you know, her father's pride and joy per se. he didn't really take to the boys very well. And, well, more on that to come.
We can just touch upon it a little bit just to what the whistle of the audience. The fact that he knew what Shallan was or the power that she has and that she was the one that killed her mom. I don't think it's explored enough. So this is one knock against Anderson. I'm nitpicking about it. I think his descend into madness because of what he knew about Shallan, extra introlude, introlude five. Give me a.
It can be daddy's, you know, a hard broken descendant to madness that his little girl is, you know, whatever he thought she was, a monster, just like maybe like her mom did. Yeah.
Jonathan (29:40.288)
She was a harbinger of the recreants, the destruction of all things again. But I'll tell you, you get more of that as the books go on. She continues to unlock her own memories, if you can call it that. It feels like a knock right now, because you want to know everything. But Sanderson, like myself, doesn't just tell you everything up front. We want you to experience it. We want you to go through it. We want you to live it out with the character's slaba.
I'm living it out, I'm living it out. I am.
Are you? All right, fair enough. What has stood out to you so far regarding Dalinar or Kaladin or Syl and their journey so far or development now that Kaladin specifically, because he's had such a stark difference between where he was and where he is now. Dalinar's, I feel like in his intro growth stages where he's like, what is going on? I'm having these visions. I don't know what to believe anymore.
Everyone around him thinks he's crazy. He's playing politic games, which he said he'd never do. And he always left that to Gavilar, his brother who was assassinated. So yeah, it's kind of a big ambiguous question, but do have any thoughts on that?
Yeah, I kind of do, but they're scattered because there's so much going on. You have all the politicking, you have all the internal struggles, you have a blossoming of Dalinar and Navani's love and they get essentially married in this book. It's like a really good soap opera without the cheesiness, right? Like you get these cut scenes where there's multiple storylines and then stuff from two chapters ago or a book ago, you have everything.
Slava (31:25.976)
coming together, they kind of get pulled apart. Then you're going down an interlude or you're going down a memory or a flashback or something. Then you have Jasna getting stabbed in the heart. And so it's a wild ride. So if forced, maybe I can think about it, reread some of the chapters and get down to the weeds on some of this. But to answer you in a way that's meaningful and doesn't bore the audience with me blathering on for half an hour, I think the
pun intended the storm of the story here is what is so, so fascinating. It's blustering. It's blustering. Yeah. I know I'm a fan boy of Shallan. I, I attached myself to a character and I've followed them. The same thing with a Siri in Warbreaker. So when you're asking me about Dalin, I'm like, yeah, of course he's politic and doing all this stuff.
can gust up your sca-
Jonathan (32:17.43)
Yes, we know, we know.
Slava (32:23.702)
a Kaladin depressed about something. I'm kidding. not that dismissive of the characters. But for me, I'm watching Shalan telling people what to do and then surviving her trek from the shipwreck to the shattered plains. But overall, again, there's so much happening at once, but it's never overwhelming or confusing. Yeah.
That feels like a movie. It really does because within each chapter he does jump perspective sometimes to show us like, in quote unquote real time, this is what's going on with these different people. it's, man, it's just, it's a great journey.
It is, it is anyway. So that's my answer to you. Great progress, character arcs, lots of good drama, lots of good information given. So it's my usual. At a boys for Sanderson. think he just. Brights well. So there's a very little thing to nitpick at. Well, for it, let me rephrase that. There's nothing to really pick at. There's plenty of things to nitpick because that's what nitpicking is. And we could, we could.
discuss those things, but that doesn't take away for at all from, the story or my enjoyment of it.
And I think that's the difference between nitpicking and just like asking for more. If it takes away from the story, and this is, guess, my classification. If it takes away from the story, it's nitpicking. If it doesn't take away from the story, I think that's a good sign probably. Right? That, Hey, I like the author. I want more of this. Things like that. Like roadside picnic. Right? I was like, Hey, I want more. And you're like, they only wrote one book. Yep. Well, that's not true. You did tell me they wrote a second one, which.
Jonathan (34:11.63)
I think you told me it wasn't translated to You could read it to me in Russian and I'll just have to pretend I know what's going on.
I didn't find a translation of it.
Slava (34:21.326)
Yep. It'll be just like...
Storytime with Slava.
Story time is falling, but as we progress here through our section, we have Shalon waking up in a panic state. This is chapter seven. She sees Jasna get murdered and she soul casts the ship into oblivion and later she does wakes up, wakes up on a beach. well while all this is going on, Dalinar and Aladar are having a little tizzy fit and
Kaladin is leading, who are they? yeah, Rock, Teft and Sigzal. Sigzal and Sil is there and then the 40 Bridgemen from the reorganized crews. For those who don't know and we haven't touched on this, the crews are reorganized. Kaladin tells Teft to start training these Bridgemen and Kaladin and Sil stroll off.
baiting the laws of physics and sell jokes about gravity. And this is why sill pattern, like the spren are just really funny creatures. love their view of the world. I some of it's so literalistic, some of it's so childlike in certain aspects and it's fun. And I think each spren, like you said about pattern being contrasted with Chalon, each sill is well contrasted with
Slava (35:52.392)
it's human counterpart because Kaladin, know, morose and serious doctor turned slave turned captain of the royal guard needs somebody like Sil to, you know, kind of bust his balls a little bit and bring him down.
It's really fun because Sanderson creates this contrast between like these deeply traumatized humans. And that's like some of the memes you'll see on the internet too. Traumatized humans. And then this friend going, I want a traumatized human. Give me a traumatized human. I want one. They're just like pass through from Shadesmar to the cognitive realm or the physical realm. And you know, they try to...
understand because they've lost their memory.
Even we joke about it, me as a noob to this world, when I heard, cause I was listening to the audio tape, audio book, when I heard that Jasna was, you know, killed, I text you what the f**k that Sanderson just do. Now I'm going to have a sprint attached to me. The way that Sanderson's write this, you get yourself attached to the story so much and to some of the characters.
In this contrast, it's so fun to watch characters grow and then the sprinter growing and adjusting to their new world and they're absorbing more information. But even I, somebody who's a noob to this Cosmere world, the first thing I text you and Spencer when Jasna was killed, not killed.
Slava (37:31.074)
I was like, what the hell is Sanderson doing? Now I'm going to have a spren for the rest of this book attached to me as I, you know, go to work on this bus.
Yeah. Well, the thing is like, Jasnah did die. That's the thing about Knights Radiance is like sometimes they die because they're not around anymore. like we hear about the, well, I think it's later in the book, but like Haryatiam, which is like the big renunciation of oaths from the Knights Radiant where they all go, you know what, the truth to get to the next stage of radiant hood is too much. We've learned too much.
I'm not doing this anymore. And it's like, okay, something happened. We don't know what it was. The annals of history have not recorded it very well. You are left questioning like, okay, this power has disappeared. We also know later in this book that like Dalinar went to go see the night watcher for the old magic, right? We know that there's something in the world called odium. Pattern is terrified of it.
He, we don't know what that is, you know? So there's all, he just keeps adding and stacking on more and more questions. And yeah, I do want you to think that Jasna is dead. That was a really hard thing that all of us have to go through. Jasna is dead. Deal.
I you both when she was alive then in the book I was like these motherf****
Jonathan (38:58.22)
Yeah, because I want you to live out the emotion, which is why you have spren now. It's why you have multiple spren.
I'm glad you didn't tell me, oh, don't worry about it. She comes back, I'm like, I wouldn't have appreciated that.
That's correct. And so you're just proving my point. You're proving my point to not tell you the things before that you can happen.
Yes, yes, but there's some things you can tell me. You don't have, that's like a major plot point that would ruin the enjoyment of the book. Nonetheless, nevertheless, all the less, we're moving on to something very interesting.
Can I tell you something a little bit more? Can I ruin a little bit more of the- Caledon has 10 toes. Cale told me to tell you that.
Slava (39:32.066)
Please. That, well.
You know what? Now I don't want to read anymore.
She also wants to tell you how puppies have babies.
Puppies do not have babies. Dogs have puppies. What sex ed you took in high school, but...
The Roshar in one, taught by Saddias and Nan Bilat.
Slava (39:53.144)
So here's something I want to talk about because we're now Chapter 10, 11, 12. Shalon believes the world is ending and it's her fault. So Chapter 10, this is her point of view six years ago. As her father is trying to get her to sleep, he wipes some blood from her face and starts singing lullaby. It's creepy as hell. Shalon thinks herself to be a monster that kills and thus isn't worthy of love and affection. my goodness.
It is.
Slava (40:22.376)
that her father has given her. In the room there are two corpses, a man and a woman in white. Shalon's mother who lies face down hiding her horrible eyes as Shalon and her father pass his safe in the wall. Shalon can see the light from the monster inside of it. After the song ends her father leaves the bedroom closing the door and the corpses. It's a quick little flashback but you're now already thinking I was thinking I'm like
We have so much more to unpack your dear dear Shallan. Yeah, totally normal.
Now she had a normal upbringing. It's really your first murder that causes the most difficulty. After that, it's just peaches.
Yeah. Second and third, Paul James Bond teaches us that in Casino Royale. That second one was considerably easier, but you get this little moment from Shallan that opens up a lot of questions and you kind of know where it's going. At least I already knew where it was going. Okay. Shallan probably killed her mom. To me, it seemed evident and I'm like, okay, so what does that mean for her dad? What does it mean for Nam Bilat? Like how is her dad still the prick that he was revealed to be before?
And that quickly ends and you get Chillon six years later, waking up on a beach offshore and pattern says that the ship sank and he doesn't know if any of the sailors survived. So here we get a little bit more growth from Chillon. has a little bit more resolve. She forces herself to accept that Yasna is dead. She manages to tread some water to shore.
Slava (42:01.994)
And then she waits on the beach for survivors. So somebody who's she's thinking she's not in complete distress, freaking out, not knowing to do. And pattern says that he found someone and urges Shallan to follow him and leads her to Yasna's trunk. We have one survivor and just a little bit of a loot for her to, to carry. And obviously some of it's waterproof. So everything's great.
She's never carried a bag in her life. Don't give me that. She had the worthless Parshanti do that. Come on.
This is true. While Nambulat was rippin'.
or the slaves that they hired that her father would be.
Now, it's all great. Yeah, Shalane is fine. She's unable to build a fire though, which is what I found very...
Jonathan (42:47.158)
I am a stick.
I don't know why seeing Shalan so helpless. It was kind of funny to me.
That does it for you, sicko, huh? That does it for you?
When rich white girls can't a fire on deserted islands, I'm sold. In all seriousness, you're shown that a person just doesn't overnight become a better version of themselves. It is. You're to take us three steps forward, one day, maybe a step back. She came from a rich family. Everything was done for her. So no matter her growing in some way, she's also kind of helpless.
Yes, she's 100 % helpless until she starts faking it, until she makes it, which is good, but it is a difficulty for her to start doing where, you know, she washes up on shore here. And to my point, she has to drag the luggage with her. Her saving grace, if you will, is Pattern going around ahead of her and trying to find like, oh, hey, there's a person. The problem is Pattern doesn't know who to trust. so.
Jonathan (43:47.328)
know, Shalon has to then be like, all right, I'm just going to be Yasna for right now. That's what we're going to do, which works out well for her.
It does. She has searched herself on the ship. She has the wherewithal to soul cast the ship during the attack. She wakes up on the beach. She has the wherewithal again to wait for people. Then she finds the trunk and she's like, all right, cool. I have a trunk, but she falls asleep. She can't start a fire. And then she wakes up to somebody addressing her as brightness and it's our good, uh, to walk or whatever. Yeah.
Brad news?
And as she asserts herself as she imagines Jasna would, making it happen, they are going to take her to the Shattered Plains by sheer force, makes them do what she needs them to do. Maybe I'm being redundant here, or I think that is part of the brilliance of Sanderson's writing. Because you have that with other characters too.
Well, he does that. He builds a character up in one way and then forces them to be in something that is completely outside of their wheelhouse, which then lets us believe the character development. And speaking of, and if you've been following along our, what's this, episode 115? That sounds right. Yep. If you've been here for a while, you'll know that the character that I have to use Slava's terminology attached myself to would be Kaladin.
Jonathan (45:13.098)
And Alinar, there's a mixture here, Kelladon and Alinar. You like want to go on this journey with them and you feel the difficulty because these experiences they're having are very much like related to real life experiences. Okay, you're not on Roshar and you don't have superpowers, but have you ever been thrust into a place that you don't think that you belong? Yes, probably. Have you ever had everyone against you? Yeah, probably.
Have you ever had to try to figure it out and you didn't know what to do? Yeah, probably. So it's a beautiful, beautiful, fun journey before we reached the destination of the shattered planes.
And it ends, this part ends on a really good, call it a cliffhanger, but we have Kaladin watching as his old friend, Bright Lord Amaram, is clutching.
How dare you talk like that?
Aw, they're good buddies. Did you forget how nice Amram was to Kaladin? He bought him drinks and gave him gifts for an exchange for the- wait, no, he killed all his friends.
Jonathan (46:22.264)
Shut your mouth.
In front of
Yeah. So Cal then sees Dalinor clutching hands with his, not friend, Bright Lord Amoram. And then it ends. Then we get into the interludes and they're really the only interlude that we can talk about whatever you want. I'm to talk about the one that I found interesting and we'll, let you, correct me or keep me in the dark or give me some, something to chew on. But interlude to Yim, that's the one I found the most, most intriguing.
Cause we have this cobbler, he's doing what he does best and he gets killed by a guy for the sins of the past. He's just sitting in his cobbler shop. Somebody comes to, what's the word I'm looking for? Somebody comes to collect a debt and the man accuses him of murdering in his youth. He tells the man that it wasn't intentional.
Yes.
Slava (47:23.374)
But the man sensed he is guilty nonetheless. He summons a sharp blade. The M tries to run away, but the dark skinned man, as he's described, slams it against the wall and stabs him in the chest with a sharp blade.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
And it seems that this cobbler who is really kind to children making up for the sins of the past, even though he thinks or he says it's not intentional, it was a quick interlude and full of left me full of questions. Who is the dark skin man? You tell me that. He's a herald.
Harold.
Nail's endeavor is to stop the return of the recreants by killing all of the people who show signs of becoming Knights Radiant. Because if the Knights Radiant come back, then the Voidbringers return.
Slava (48:16.364)
Well is there like a quorum of nitradiant? Like you can't kill all of them can you?
That's his whole job, according to him.
So how does Seth Sanvalano, truthless of Sinevar, how does he connect with a nail? Is there any connection? At some point. Well, that they meet, but the powers that be they're controlling, do they?
No, no, no, no. The Heralds have their own endeavors. Person controlling Zeth is a different entity entirely. Be sure to drop us a rating and help us spread the word if you're enjoying today's side quest. Let's take another quick side quest and go revisit the Wave Kings. If you had to join a bridge crew, what role would you try to take? You're going to try to live out a miserable existence?
Okay.
Slava (49:05.048)
Somewhere in the back.
live long enough to escape or kill somebody and escape. don't know.
Okay, fair enough. But okay, so you're in the bridge crew, you're in the back trying to escape. Now some other bridge crew gets you your freedom. Now what? I'm progressing us from The Way of Kings into Words of Radiance by like, you were in a bridge crew, you were in the back. Now Kaladin, who you don't know because he's in one of the other bridge crews, but you've heard of him and his bridge crew. They just continue to survive. Wins you your freedom.
Now you're a part of Dalinar's army or you can leave. Either one.
down those army free food good money you're now you know you might work for some nasty light eyes but hey it's better than running around the woods trying to eat dead rats and pigeons and trying to scrape by
Jonathan (50:02.03)
The Shattered Plains? many trees do you think are on the Shattered Plains? This isn't Lord of the Rings on Numenor. Do know what plains are, Slava?
There were two trees.
Slava (50:13.228)
Yes, fine bushes scrounging for berries and dead spiders in the bushes of the airplanes.
Okay, cool.
Tape pattern.
Hmm
Yeah, no, so I have two choices either there's two two choices in each situation. I have a choice of running away from a bridge crew or trying to survive and then add an opportunity trying to escape and Scrouging in bushes is probably better than getting shot at by the proscenity But then all of a sudden the situation changes and now it's either yeah run away and go somewhere where I don't know and eventually maybe make it to a town and
Slava (50:53.322)
make a life out of it. Or I can go work for the light eyes. Maybe I have less animus than Kaladin does towards the light eyes. But I go serve with Kaladin who I heard is a good guy. I serve with him. I get paid. I get food. I get an allowance. Some kind of allowance I'm sure. I get a place to live and I'm safe now from being shot at by the Prashendi. Now sure, assassin and white and all that stuff. But that's better than
You know, wandering the planes and better than running bridge cruise. See, but I'm not as morose as Caledon. I'm more pragmatic in these situations. I think where I'm like, all right, well, what's the next thing? this is the next thing. right. Well, how do we figure out how to make the best of it or how do we escape or how do we do whatever needs to be done?
running bridge cruise.
Jonathan (51:41.912)
Fair. So, fair fair. I'd probably just try and hang out with Rock. Always get some good food. hell yeah. For whatever that's worth.
If I get a choice, like again, this is Slava who was also a foodie. If I get a choice, skeleton says, all right, you in the back, where do you want to serve under my command? I'd be like, well, in the kitchen, because I like, I'm Slava and I like food. If I'm supposed to, know, stand next to a king and protect him from some assassin, fine, I'll do that.
Can you tolerate lopen?
Oh hell yeah, I would bust his balls. Lopen is the perfect guy for me because I will just continuously make fun of him, know, lightheartedly, of course. And he'll just, you know, give it back in measure, I think.
yeah, or he'll stick you to a wall. Nice. Very fun. Very fun. So let's move to some world building and some lore real quick while we are moving through this episode. The Stormlight, this magic system. What is your current understanding of how it works and it's evolving in the different characters? And then the follow-up to that is what do you believe that you understand about Shardblades at the moment and possibly their origins? So two questions for world building.
Slava (52:25.134)
or that.
Slava (52:52.802)
Yeah. So Stormlight is what you have mentioned and my research has led me to, it's called Investiture. I think it's connected with honor and it's brought on by high storms. It's directly connected to the spiritual realm because that's where it comes from, I think, where people can cause it to appear in the physical realm. And I think that's it for my knowledge of it. Besides its appearance and properties, which is
Jonathan (53:26.368)
whatever yeah so okay that's that's true honor is powering Stormlight what do you feel like you know about honor we've talked about in the past shards just a little bit it's not that there's not that there's that bit anything revealed I'm just doing a so a recap you know
So honor is, yeah, shards, shards of ethyl nalcium connected to odium. It's part of the Rosharian system. So if I'm going to be pattern here, honor, suppose it's upholding oaths and agreements and doing the right thing, making the right choices, following a set of ideals, following your obligations. So that's honor, but that's kind of honor in any world.
Correct.
Jonathan (54:14.006)
Yeah, honor is the same here, but honor is a shard because each of the shards have their own personalities. It's just a, I was just looking for a quick recap on what you recall, what you remember, whatever.
That's what I recall and I recall from some of my research there's like what 16 shards or something like that. Okay
Yes. There might be 17. Ooh. Okay. And then what about the mysteries behind shard blades? What do you know about that? You know, the big weapons that they use to kill people.
blades.
Their origins, all that I know about their origin is they were originally held by the Night's Radiant before the Night's Radiant, pieced out. I know that they possess incredible power. I know that battles between shard bearers can often lead to great destruction in their wake. More than just, know, a couple of trees fell down. The immediate surroundings have the possibility to be destroyed or in danger of being destroyed if not wielded correctly.
Slava (55:11.51)
I know people talk to their shards, which is a little weird.
Well, not people, just person, just one person.
Fair enough. But that means that there's a way to communicate with them or he's just a little little cuckoo.
Probably both.
Okay. It seems that because you can summon them and release them, there's some sort of mental capacity needed or an awareness of the spiritual realm needed. I think you can be trained in this. Maybe there's a bit, a tiny bit of sapience that the shards have.
Jonathan (55:48.45)
Yeah, I think that's fair. That's pretty fair.
So if I'm just talking off the top of my head, based on what little I know, that would be my description to you in the audience of what Slava knows about shards.
Do you think Nightblood is a sharp blade?
Yes and no type of shard. He's not one of the 16 shards or one of the original shards, but maybe he was made with the same properties the same manner But I don't know
Hmm. Yeah. interesting. Just curious. Great. That's a little recap for the world building lore of Words Radiance, Shardblades, and Stormlight. Fun fact, Investiture is apparently a very normal religious concept for Mormonism. Moving on with the world building and lore, Parshendi and the Everstorm. yeah.
Slava (56:39.822)
Yeah, I don't like the brashending that much.
Okay, didn't know you were racist.
Hey, listen, not all of them are bad, I'm just kidding. a people. It's a joke. a joke. Don't cancel me. don't know the pretend I'm not that invested in. mean, they're part of the story. So I'm invested. I'm reading it, but Ello Shai and her problems. just kind of like, whatever dude. And maybe I'll be more invested, more interested in their side of it. When I find out why, why they killed the king.
Stupid. He's got a.
Slava (57:15.948)
Why is it so bad that their gods return? Who the hell are their gods that scared the crap out of them? You know, because I read Oathbringer's prologue. The king tells Eloshi his intent and she starts, you know, freaking the hell out. Tries to talk the king out of it and he's committed to doing his thing. So that gets him killed. So I want to know exactly what the hell they're so afraid of.
Yeah, part of Gavilar's instigation is related to Mistborn. This is what I was talking about.
Alright, so I should read Mistborn before I read Old Bring it with Your Sign.
You know, if you would just listen to me, you would get a more fuller, your life would be richer, it'd be brighter, you'd be more like Siri and Shalan with, you know, whimsy and invention at your side, et cetera. Do you though?
Wimsy
Slava (58:13.058)
I think so. can be whimsical when needed.
Give me an example.
It's not like I read these things down in case you asked me maybe you should.
That's right, I want receipts. Whimsy is one of the shards. We haven't met them yet in any of the books.
So.
Jonathan (58:31.606)
Anyway, that's fun. All right.
Well, enough about the prescindi and their whimsical ways. Let's go on a side quest, Jonathan. I think you can answer this better than I can, so this side quest is all you. What real world cultures or mythologies do you think Sanderson drew inspiration from when writing the prescindi?
I feel like I knew this at some point. I feel like it's either Indonesian or African, but not necessarily mythologies, mostly cultures. And I'm like scraping at a barrel here. I believe that there's a couple African tribes that do more singing in their cultures. Not just like rain dance singing type stuff, but like actual, you know, when someone messes up in the culture, they'll bring them together and sing them the song to remind them of themselves.
almost like a re-baptizing, if you will, of their identity in the tribe. And then in terms of Indonesian culture, can't remember all the details, but that's what it is off the top of my head. Yeah. Those two seem correct.
Okay, that makes sense. mean, I have no idea. So you are the scholar.
Jonathan (59:43.842)
I'm not compared to some people. think I've mentioned that before. if you're a noob, I'm two steps ahead of you compared to some of these people who have all this stuff memorized. yeah. I wish I had a better memory for it, honestly, because it is very fun. Very fun.
dude some people really get into it.
Slava (01:00:03.374)
I recently started watching a show which I recommend everybody watch. It's Severance created by Ben Stiller and Michael Scott. No, Adam Scott, excuse me.
Michael Scott, the office character? A- Stiller and the office character made a movie.
Yup.
It is, I'm not going to get into it. I'm not going to spoil it. It's just an amazing story. The way it's my type of thing. It's a little dystopian. My favorite term off the beaten path kind of story where it doesn't follow certain things that you would expect, but it's still a well put together story. There's nothing that leaves you confused or at all. It's not an erratic storytelling. Go check out Severance. My point is when you go on a subreddit for
theories on severance and you go through all these forums. Dude, there are some people who have the brain capacity to do the deepest of dives and Coppermind Wiki and some of the Sanderson and Cosmere subreddits are proof of that. I just don't have the, I don't have the mental capacity to do that kind of stuff.
Jonathan (01:01:11.81)
Now, if only they used their powers for progress in society instead of entertainment.
The Reddit, Tred, Tredders.
Yes. Okay.
Well, you've been called out Reddit. Go, go do good.
Go do good. Do it, go do good. All right, as we wind down here, we got two more things to discuss. We're gonna look at the themes that we've seen so far. It's early, but we'll talk about it anyway. Shalon struggle with self-identity and past trauma and how Stormlight changes its users physically and mentally. How do you think Stormlight is affecting her dealing with her trauma and processing it?
Jonathan (01:01:56.412)
or negatively affecting it.
Stormlight is from the spiritual realm. It manifests in the physical realm by either people conjuring it or it coming with the storm. There's also cognitive aspects to it, or at least it's somehow in the cognitive realm because you need some sort of knowledge, practice, understanding of it to use it correctly. Otherwise it doesn't work.
for him.
Slava (01:02:28.862)
I think because of those things, I think when somebody is invested with Stormlight, it also penetrates maybe their cognitive abilities, gives them a different perspective. It's sort of like drinking an elixir. That's maybe the worst analogy ever.
You drink a lot of elixirs?
But it seems the most apt when put on the spot of a analogy where it's like a potion, like a magic potion in some sense, maybe not an elixir, but it gives you cognitive abilities. gives you the ability to fly. affects or go really fast through things or jump in the air, how Kaladin and said son, Volano were fighting in the clouds. So it affects you physically and cognitively. And I'm sure.
on a spiritual level, an emotional level, it has to affect you somehow because it's part of those worlds, whatever this thing is, right? This investiture, the stormlight. When you are invested with it, you can process, in this case, let's say your trauma better. You can have abilities to maybe think, I'm totally speculating by the way, think deeper through things.
Besides just jumping from cloud to cloud and kicking sets on a volana on the face. Like you're able to do more things with your mind is not just your body. Again, speculation.
Slava (01:04:28.5)
Yeah, though that's my answer and audience for your, for your awareness. What I do is I try to do as much research as possible without spoiling anything that I think would ruin the reading experience for me. based on the two books that I read that are part of this series and the other standalones and short stories and the little bit of toe dipping I did into Coppermind, the wiki.
for Stormlight, that's what I know. And as you heard Jonathan said, that's a fair speculation, which could be misdirection, but.
Slava (01:05:12.194)
Listen, Sadius. Sadius. Whatever your name is. Jonathan.
Slava (01:05:19.446)
Your question was a two-parter, so I answered the second part. Shallon struggled with self-identity and past trauma. Let me ask you a question. Do you see Stormlight helping her process her identity? And not just incidentally, like, ooh, I know to use Stormlight, therefore I'm more brave and I'm more astute, and then I can do these things with less conflict or less fear.
more than just incidental, the Stormlight actually help her process this? Because then that would make my speculation correct. If it doesn't, then...
Slava (01:06:11.735)
And I see that.
Slava (01:06:39.918)
put those parameters on not because I don't know the answer because yes there is an incidental aspect of this where because she used Stormlight and she killed Tin and now she's in a new situation and her being able to do these things that she wasn't without Stormlight that by and of itself is giving her more confidence that's fine
The reason I put the parameters is, there a second side to this? Does, like my speculation asserted, does Stormlight actually affect you cognitively more than just physically?
Slava (01:07:30.36)
Yeah, that's what I'm getting at.
Slava (01:07:35.04)
One more question before we end our episode. Do you see Dallinor and Kaladin? How do you see, let me put it this way. How do you see Dallinor and Kaladin handle leadership differently? These are your boys.
Slava (01:10:14.136)
Okay. Now you're killing Kaladin.
Slava (01:10:21.998)
You know, this would be a masterful misdirection if he actually does die. Because I'm thinking he was just lying. Of course. Well, RIP to Kaladin and friends. Thank you for joining us on this PsychQuest. Make sure to share this episode with your fellow book lovers and join the conversation on Instagram and YouTube. And we'll see you next time on PsychQuest.
Slava (01:11:00.302)
Crest Cattle Friends. Excellent. I love it.
Slava (01:11:13.077)
my god. That sounds vaguely sexual.
Slava (01:11:20.962)
Alright folks, there you have it. See you next time.