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Candid conversations for the church. Host is Ardin Beech of Windsor District Baptist Church, Sydney, Australia. Co-hosted by Jonathan Hoffman.
Well, here we are again This Week At Windsor. Not the normal voice behind the host, Mike. My name is Jonathan Hoffman. Arden Beach is absent today, but I'm very, very blessed to have one of our previous guests come and cohost with us. Gwen Parkhill, great to see you.
Gwen:Thanks for having me today.
Jonathan:Yeah. I really appreciate you coming in and lending us your voice and lending us your wisdom as My words. Yeah. Yeah. So, Gwen, before we get to our guests, how was your experience last time when from doing this?
Jonathan:Did you as you sort of reflected being a guest in in
Gwen:I had a lot of fun. I really enjoyed monologuing at people about especially about faith things. Like, I could do that all day long. Makes people very uncomfortable when they back away.
Jonathan:Well, that's great. Well, we're not we're not backing away. We're we're glad that you're here and very excited as well to welcome on to This Week At Windsor our guest, Amy Townsend. Amy, lovely to have you. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Amy:Oh, thanks for inviting me on, guys. It's great to be here.
Jonathan:Yeah. Did I get your surname right?
Amy:Amy Townsend. That's right.
Jonathan:Okay.
Amy:There you maiden name is Ramalis, but my my married name is Townsend. Less exotic.
Jonathan:There you go. Well, Amy, you've you've been to WDBC. You came and you preached at a night service about a month or so ago. You taught from Philippians, which was amazing. We were so excited.
Jonathan:We're like, oh, can we get Amy to come back? We would love to hear more. Yeah. As much as we were blessed by the way you shared the word with us, we were also keen to hear a bit about you personally. So thanks for coming on and and joining us today.
Jonathan:Really appreciate that.
Amy:My pleasure.
Jonathan:Maybe for those who either didn't get a chance to meet you or maybe aren't familiar with sort of your journey, why don't you tell us a little bit about sort of where you're situated in life right now and, yeah, what's your Monday to Friday look like?
Amy:Yeah. No worries. So I'm married to Jesse and we have two little ones. Penny is four and a bit, and Noah is almost two. Already paints a little bit of a picture as to what life looks like.
Amy:There's a a degree of normal chaos in our house and in our lives. We currently live in French's Forest because I'm I'm juggling two jobs at the moment. So I serve as an assistant pastor at Saint Mark's in Freshwater, and I serve on faculty at Sydney Missionary and Bible College. So life's pretty full, probably a bit too full if I'm honest. But that's where we're at.
Amy:My husband, Jesse, he's a he does a lot of things. He's a carpenter, and that's his main work at the moment. He works as the grounds and maintenance officer at Moorling Baptist College.
Jonathan:Oh, wow.
Amy:And yeah. Yep. But he's also a children's book illustrator and a personal trainer. So, you
Jonathan:know goodness.
Amy:Yeah. What a Never a dull moment in the Townsend house. Seriously.
Jonathan:You guys should open, like, a firm or something. That that That's
Gwen:amazing. You're covering all your bases there.
Amy:It is it is odd. Yeah. I mean, it's been a real blessing actually because ministry has led us in different directions, and Jesse kind of just has many tools in the toolbox that made him amazingly adaptable as God has brought us different places doing different things. And I expect God will continue to take us to different places doing different things. So Jesse's ability to adapt has been a great blessing.
Jonathan:So you you mentioned you have some little ones at home. You also have people you're looking after. You also have students as well. K. Teaching, ministering, parenting.
Jonathan:What's more tiring?
Amy:Oh, that's a great question. Probably parenting, to be honest, because of the there's no turning off. It's like, oh, yep. Good morning, children. Like, you've woken me up at whatever time you've woken me up, and I haven't even had, a drink of water yet, but we are at it.
Amy:But, obviously and parenting, you know, it comes with the highest highs, but also the lowest lows. And I think probably what's more tiring about it than the day to day logistics and discipline and discipling is just the of having my own incompetency exposed in this space. It's so hard. It's ruthless.
Gwen:You think you're a really
Gwen:giving person until you have children, and you have to give at 3AM repeatedly. Mhmm. And then you're not that giving.
Amy:Yeah. It just definitely changes your perspective on your degrees of, like, patience and selflessness. So I would definitely say God has taught me more through this season of parenthood than anything else. That's been my personal experience. But, yeah, work is tiring in different ways as well.
Jonathan:Yeah. Well, I I try to explain it to people, and the closest thing and I think parenting is harder. But the closest thing, I think, in to shepherding is parenting. There's a few other layers to it, but but yeah. Tell us a little bit about your journey.
Jonathan:What was it like? How did you find the Lord? How did you come to faith? Yeah. When did you first hear the name of Jesus?
Amy:Yeah. Praise be to God. I've never needed convincing that God exists. I remember as a kid always assuming God was there. I just didn't really know much about his character or his intimate love for us and his desire to be intimately involved in our lives.
Amy:So I did I wouldn't say I grew up in a Christian family, but my mom, that classic nineteen fifties Australian way, you know, she went to Sunday school, things like that. So she had kind of Christian roots. You know, she'd absolutely kick Christian on the census probably. And because of all that, sent us to scripture in school, and I have I'm the youngest of three siblings, and so they got to go to youth group. And, of course, being the child, I was massively jealous that they got to go and have this awesome time on a Friday night, so I started getting I was about to go to the Friday afternoon kids club.
Amy:Praise god for that. So between scripture and kids club, my kind of type a personality really started to bubble. So it's like I wanted to get the the memory verses right and craft right,
Gwen:and I wanted to do it right.
Amy:But then in probably year eight, that was I was on a youth camp, and that was when I just was really met Jesus. Mhmm. Really so kind of God had been this kind of big big guy in control, powerful, yeah, loving, but but Jesus, how do we how do we access God? And, obviously, my process so far have been, like, doing a good job, learning my my bible verses, etcetera. And so meeting Jesus, I was just floored by the reality that, oh, no.
Amy:It's not what I'm doing. I can't get to God in my own strength, and Jesus has made God known. And the real thing for me was I guess it was the first time I properly understood the gospel, but kind of the cherry on the cake for my commitment to Jesus as my lord and savior was at the end of the week, the preacher sang this song that was about the passion narrative, so Jesus' arrest, his crucifixion, his resurrection, but the song concluded with his return that we're still awaiting. And it talked about him coming back, king of kings, lord of lords, heavens blazing, trumpets sounding, and I just remember being so convinced that that moment is coming.
Jonathan:Wow.
Amy:And I was just like, I just gotta be on I gotta be on same Jesus. Like, that's coming. He's coming back. So, yeah, if that was a really pivotal moment in my faith journey, you might say, I didn't know what to do with that youth group. Kept going to, but did I go because I love Jesus, or did I go because youth group is super fun?
Amy:I don't know. I went to uni and kinda, like, fell off the cliff. I was, hi. I'm Amy. I'm a Christian, and instantly antagonized and, like, shot at with every question under the sun that I'd never thought about.
Amy:I felt really stupid and embarrassed and was like, am I a Christian? So those uni years were really hard, but in god's mercy and kindness. When I moved out of home, I moved out with two Christian girls. I wasn't super close with them. I didn't even know one of them.
Amy:I kind of knew the other one, but the rent was really cheap because we lived in this old rectory. So so that's how that God God got me there, but they prayed for me servantfully. And I do believe he answered their prayers, and over that time, I came back to really have Jesus first in my life.
Gwen:When you were at uni and people were firing all these questions at you, did that push you to seek answers? Did you just kinda sit in that space not really knowing?
Amy:I kind of felt more like I said, kinda stupid, like, oh, how could I call myself a Christian when I haven't thought about these things? So that was my first response. Then, you know, uni, it's a very unusual time, and I love theater and performing art. And so I got really into that crowd, you might say. And so then it was just a choice.
Amy:Like, do I wanna be super popular and enjoy parties and theater, or do I wanna, like, work this thing out with Jesus? And probably a critical thing, and I hope this is an encouragement to your youth and young adults, I moved church in year 12, which was not a great choice, but our youth the youth group I've been going to kinda fizzled up. So I moved church, and that was probably a really bad choice. I felt too old for youth, too young for the adult, and I just never found my place in this new church. So I didn't have a strong foundation or strong roots right at this critical time when I went into uni, didn't have people checking on me.
Amy:And it wasn't their fault. It was my fault. I was, like, evasive and and just a real pain of
Gwen:a church member, to be honest.
Amy:But I can see how if I'd had that community, I think I would have made a radical difference in my time at uni, which is a big transition, like big, wide world out there. But I didn't, so I was like, oh, well, I'd rather have lots of friends at uni. I still believe Jesus I I I can't deny who Jesus is, but I'm I'm really not making active choices to follow him.
Gwen:And so then what was the turning point for you? You said you then moved in with other Christians. They were praying for you. Was that, like, a moment where you look at and you go, then things just really changed?
Amy:Well, 2011 was the year of change. So I went to any I went to uni in 2009, and then I actually got into a show. So 2010, I was kind of, like, performing. I dropped out of uni, doing this great stuff, started dating a non Christian guy. And then 2011, God was like, okay.
Amy:Dear child, let's sort you out. So January was when I moved. I know. I know. I was like, oh my goodness.
Amy:He's so merciful and loving and patient. And as a parent now, I'm like, I get a I get a microcosm of that. So, yeah, January, moved out with these girls. They're laying this, like, prayer foundation that I didn't know about. I was in this really awful job.
Amy:Like, I worked full time as an administrator, but in, like, a quite a toxic multimillion dollar building company. I was just an administrator, but I hated it. And so I quit that job. So that was, like, the net debt. I was like, k.
Amy:Let's deal with work. Then I'd had I've been sick. It sounds silly, but I've had tonsillitis consistently for almost a year. Yeah. It was just one of those weird I just, like, was being pumped with antibiotics constantly.
Amy:So then I got my tonsils out, so the Lord kind of restored my health in a way that I'd just forgotten about. And then the last domino to fall, you might say, was breaking up with my non Christian boyfriend. And I think relationships are the hardest thing to Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like, you might say in in pursuit of Jesus, but it got to a stage where I was like, I know I'm not living like a Christian, but this guy thinks Christianity is ridiculous.
Amy:Like, he thinks the core of what I think is stupid. So I can't actually even though he was so nice and, you
Jonathan:know Yeah.
Amy:We we had a great time, I can't be with him because he thinks it's stupid, and I don't think that. So, yeah, broke up with him and literally the next week started going back to church, and it was just a slow burn of, like, being around Christians, being in the word, and God, like, his tenderness as a father. He could have dealt with all that in one month. He could have just, like, obliterated my life, which, you know, would have had, like, on the one hand, same outcomes, but a very different impact on me as a person and as a child of his. So the fact that he was like, okay.
Amy:Let's just deal with, like, one thing at a time. Yeah. I really got to know god's fatherliness in in his pursuit of me in that. Yeah.
Jonathan:I really appreciate you being open about just the what that season was like and the difficulty even in relationally. Like, how how does my faith impact? Who I date? Who I love? Who I who I commit myself to in that way.
Jonathan:I wonder if you could maybe give some insight because I know there's a number of people who find this, you know, themselves in a very similar situation whether they're married or not married or can you talk a bit about, yeah, looking now from this side of where you're at today, what was the difference? And did you see was it with conviction you felt from the Lord? Do you feel like it was from the Lord? And as someone who's kind of lived both sides of that, yeah, what would you say to to someone who's maybe at a crossroads themselves?
Amy:I guess it starts with just the call that Jesus places on our lives. He calls all of us, and I don't mean, like, numerically. Well, I do mean that in one sense, but, like, all of myself
Jonathan:Yeah.
Amy:Body, soul, mind, strength to him. And, you know, our gut reaction might be like, well, that's that's a lot.
Gwen:But he has said yeah.
Amy:You know? And it is a lot, but he is so qualified to make that call because he has given all of himself up in his death, in his resurrection, you know, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. And so I think it has to start there. If you truly believe that Jesus has given all of himself for you and then he calls all of you to him, like, I mean, on a base level, that seems pretty fair to me. Yeah.
Amy:Yeah. But then, you know, knowing Jesus, not just as our savior and our redeemer, but our creator, you know, he knows what is good and best and right for us better than we do, and it's not just his knowledge of that. He is actually committed to our good and best even more than we are. And so, you know, you you kinda get quotes like that familiar quote from CS Lewis of, like, we're just happy to play with, like, mud pies, and he's like, come on. I've got something better for you.
Amy:And I think that where the point I got to was, like, it's it's really all or nothing with Jesus. And, yeah, of course, we have we have good seasons and bad seasons, and we take steps forward and we take steps back. And that's why, praise God, it's not about us. It's about Jesus and his lasting work in us that can't be undone. But at the same time, we are called to take steps towards him, to grow in our love of him, our knowledge of him, to be to look more like him across our lives, this kind of heaven.
Amy:So I just got to a stage with this relationship, for example, where I was like, okay. I'm not going to church. I'm sexually impure. I'm calling myself a I'm not even really calling myself a Christian anymore. I'm really not.
Amy:But I do believe that Jesus is Lord. So what am I doing? I can't unknow the truth. It's like, you know, if you hear something, just say you hear I don't know. Probably the most painful thing is gossip.
Amy:Right? You hear someone gossiping about you, and you can't ever unhear that. Well, on the positive side, appreciate that's a negative example. But, like, on the positive side, I fully know and believe Jesus is king, lord, creator, savior, redeemer, and he's coming back triumphant. Like, death is defeated, not yet destroyed.
Amy:He's coming back to death. So I can't unknow that, and it just kinda crept, like, just kept leaking into my brain, my heart, my life. So, yeah, that's when I made hard choices. It wasn't easy, but God has so honored that, and my life is better in Christ because of the choices to follow him.
Gwen:Well, and I was gonna say that, like, you must have sat there thinking you were giving up love. No idea what you're walking into. You were laying everything down, and yet here you are on the other side of it, married to an amazing man. You've got kids. You've got a ministry.
Gwen:He didn't take and never give back. He gave back so much more than you laid down.
Amy:That's right. Yeah. And that's his commitment to our good more than our commitment to our good.
Gwen:Fearful to lay down your life if you don't know the character of God. Mhmm. But when you realize that he is the author of everything good, that he is the one that you can trust, and then you can look at people like you and see that he was trustworthy. That makes it a much easier leap to make.
Amy:Mhmm. And I think, know, you you get a verse like Romans 28. God works all things for the good of those who love him. And and like it's quoted, you know, it's on bridge magnets and comes up. But when you actually look at that verse in the context of Roman days
Gwen:Yes.
Amy:Or the context of Roman and then the context of the Bible. Like, the the the next things that follow are our good. So it it starts with our good in that verse that we probably all know. It follows to being conformed to the image of the sun. So, like, what is our good?
Amy:It's our godliness. And I think in Christian life, we often pit, oh, well, this is good, and this is godly. So it's like,
Gwen:woo hoo.
Amy:Good is funny, and godly is
Gwen:like, boo, boring, lame.
Amy:But goodness and godliness are one in in the mind of god, our creator. And so he's your greatest good is your goddess. And then, know, that little section in Romans there, it finishes with our future glory. Like, he's pointing us to our eternal good. Because, you know, maybe I would have broken up with that non Christian guy, and maybe I never would have met another guy.
Amy:I wouldn't have got married, wouldn't have had children, wouldn't have had whatever. Who knows? The Lord knows. But he is working all things for our good, which is our godliness, which leads to our future glory. And so, you know, married, single, parents or not parents, employed, unemployed, like, know, seek a healthy ritual port, like, just all the things.
Amy:And it's really confronting to look at your life, especially when we're in hard seasons and we all go through hard seasons and go, how is this good? Like, I I can't see it, but we just have to like, I'm so convinced that the goodness of God and his goodness is unwavering that I just it doesn't make make those things doesn't take hard things away, but it might bring great assurance and comfort in them.
Jonathan:Mhmm. I love that note that you're striking there. I think it's so important that we as Christians keep that in front of us no matter how long you've been following Christ. Because that's obviously, you know, those first steps of faith is that belief that that God is indeed good, that this you know, that he loves me, to to believe his intentions for me are are ultimately for my good. It's so core to the faith.
Jonathan:But my question is, and maybe, you know, tap into your ministry, your teaching space around this. I feel like that is one kernel of a message that we get bombarded with today, particularly in the online space and the social media space. And I'm just curious, Amy, like, what are you seeing? What are you identifying that helps young people or anyone really keep that message front and center when we're so being pushed and and and just there's just stuff thrown in front of our eyes constantly, you know, scrolling scrolling across our feeds constantly that's just not giving that message, you know. God's it's making us question, is God there?
Jonathan:Is God really good? Is is, you know, can I trust him? Should I really should just pursue me and what I want and I define what's good. And so so, yeah, I'm curious how do you either for yourself or for your students, for the people you you're caring for, what do you find is the space that that can help bring that goodness of God back into the forefront for them?
Amy:Yeah. Great question. And you're right. Like, we are bombarded with so much content at the moment. And I think in Australia, the key message we're being indoctrinated with, you might say, is pursue your happiness.
Amy:And I remember listening to something recently that just talked about the reality of the Christian life is that there's no encouragement to numb yourself when things are hard. So yeah. Which what is a lot of social media doing or pointing us to its numbing agents? What are they? Could just be simply the malaise of scrolling, but it points to other things.
Amy:I love shopping. It is fun. I like stuff. Yeah. You know, I have had to really consider specific disciplines to help me in this consumeristic age.
Amy:And then, you know, you scroll Instagram, and the algorithm gets you with whatever you've been talking about in the last five minutes.
Jonathan:Can we just pause to acknowledge that Amy's given up her Black Friday here to be honest. It's Black Friday when we're recording this. Talk about a sacrifice of praise.
Gwen:I know. I know. Unsubscribe, my friends. Unsubscribe. You know what I
Amy:did for my Black Friday purchase, just as a little hinted, is tea too. I don't like coffee. I compensate with tea. I buy a year's worth of tea too on my brother's visit.
Jonathan:That is amazing. Alright. Do you just buy the same one, or do you buy a different
Amy:New York breakfast and Melbourne breakfast. Yeah. They're my two. New York breakfast, Melbourne breakfast. I know.
Amy:I'm not getting paid for this, but they got 30% off now. So you're getting there, friends. Rush out.
Jonathan:Those are those are my wife Joanna's two favorites as well. They're yes. Yes. In that order. Yep.
Amy:So, yeah, numbing ages. So, yeah, shop by bit. It'll make you have gambling, like the rise of gambling amongst young people. You know, I don't know what but, like, specifically young, it's devastating. And it's be may being made social and cool and fun.
Amy:I think it's like, you know, the smoking of the eighties or whatever.
Gwen:In your pocket? Alcohol.
Gwen:Drives my husband's Yeah. It's sports betting
Amy:and things like that. Obviously, you know, things like alcohol, things like pornography. Like, our, you know, our so our world is being like, frizz in pain, but no. Don't frizz pain. You should be happy.
Amy:So numb yourself to pain. So where am I going to with this? It's just that Jesus is the truth teller. Like, he is the way and the truth and the life, and that's hard. Right?
Amy:Like, I wrote my thesis, my honest thesis on light symbolism in John's gospel, and a key finding that you see in light in this light the way John uses light symbolism is that light exposes things, which sucks.
Gwen:Yeah. It does.
Amy:So John chapter three, it says, this is the verdict.
Jonathan:This is the verdict.
Amy:Light has come into the world, but we love darkness because of our evil beings. And it just makes me think of you know, here's a trivial example, but it it shines light on the reality. I had something roll under my car seat the other day, and I got two kids. So my car is filthy. Like, you know Don't put your hand pawns, sultanas, like crusty vomit.
Amy:It's disgusting. And so I'm I shine my torch under the seat, and I and to find what I'm looking for. And I'm just like, what? You know, because light exposes and but more importantly, exposes what's in our heart. It exposes our mess, our selfishness, our deceit, our impatience, our no one wants to face that.
Amy:That's awful. But Jesus is the truth teller. And so, you know, we have this phrase, ignorance is bliss. And I'm just, like, more and more convinced, no. It's not.
Amy:Ignorance is not bliss. Think about, like, what are some illustrations we'd all be on board with. Mold. Mold in your wardrobe. Do you wanna be ignorant about that?
Amy:No. You don't. Adultery in a marriage. Mhmm. Do you wanna be ignorant about that?
Amy:No. You don't. And so, yes, Christian life is hard, and I don't think we talk about this enough. I think especially in our evangelism, we kind of say, come to Jesus. Preach sister.
Amy:Yes. You know? And and everything we say is true. I was like, you know, he's great. He will bring life and satisfaction and joy, and that is true.
Amy:But the double edged sword, this side of heaven, is he calls us to carry our cross. And as we I shared with you guys in Philippians chapter one, we have been given the right not only to believe in him, but to suffer in his name. And that, you know, it gives me chills to just go, oh, Amy, you're like you're living a life with half the gospel in mind. Mhmm. And that's not okay.
Amy:You need to live life with the full gospel in mind and pick up your cross. It's not fun. But in one sense, it actually is our greatest joy to follow our lord and to wear our crown of thorns and our crown of glory with him, and you're only gonna know that when you when you do it, when you experience it.
Gwen:I was thinking about that is that when you are suffering, then you can look to the gospel and on a whole new level appreciate the fact that he also suffered. Like, he also he declined into your skin, and he felt every horrible thing that you could ever go through. And when you look around and you see no one else that's suffering like you, you can look to Jesus and realize he gets it. It's not just sympathy, it's empathy. There's something so powerful in that.
Jonathan:I think what you identified was the world doesn't know what to do with our brokenness. Mhmm. And so when we experience it, they just hey, here's another numbing agent. Yeah. And that's very powerful ignorance isn't bliss.
Jonathan:It's maybe even bondage, you know. It's it's it enslaves you. Yeah. No. Very I'm just I'm sitting here like
Gwen:Yeah. Know. Preach
Jonathan:this I I needed that sermon. I didn't know. That was good. That was good. So good.
Amy:Oh, man. You know, it was such a privilege to do that study. And, you know, it's interesting. So I studied at Sydney Missionary Bible College. It's a challenge studying theology because, of course, there's an academic edge to it.
Amy:You wanna get good marks. You wanna pass. But, you know, what's the end goal in mind that information would lead to transformation? So, you know, I'm writing my honest thesis. And it's funny because it's two years ago today.
Amy:I actually posted about it. I was super pregnant, so, like, you know, the whole journey was, like, just highs and lows and tears. And one friend said to me, you're really having two babies this summer with your with your honest thesis. I
Gwen:love it.
Amy:So Yeah. And I was like, thank you. I really appreciate that comment, actually. The more you look at Jesus, the more compelling his story and his lordship is in your life, which is why Christians rave on about reading the bible all the time. That's because where we meet Jesus most clearly.
Gwen:And the layers to that as well. Like, when you're looking at it academically, you're meeting Jesus in a different way, and it's very profound, and it's very compelling. And you can look at it through every discipline, and it's very profound and very compelling, and it's a never ending frontier.
Amy:And I think one of the most powerful things I found about bible college is, you know, we all have parts of the bible that we read, and they are confusing or confronting, and often, I don't know about you guys, but I used to just go, what do I do with this? I'll just close the bible. Yes. Yes. I was just thinking of,
Gwen:like, Ezekiel. I cannot Ezekiel anymore. I hate moving back to Matthew.
Gwen:Exactly. Yes. Like, let's just go back to something familiar.
Amy:Jen Wilkin has this great book. It's an oldie, but a goodie called women of the word, and she just goes through, like, how to read your bible. But she opens with, you wanna read your bible and love it, you should study it. And it's quite jarring because study is like, oh, really? Like, that's not very inspiring.
Amy:It doesn't sound very emotional or relational. Like, you know, I wanna be, like, you know, close with God. I don't wanna study him. But then she talks about what happens when you study something, and she talks about, like, the sports commentator or the wine connoisseur. And she goes, these people, they've studied their thing, whatever it is, the sport, the wine, the grapes, whatever, and they love it.
Amy:And what do they then love doing? They love talking about it. And, yeah, we're all evangelists about something like RP2. Here we go. Yeah.
Amy:Like, we we all talk about what we love. And so what does it look like to grow in our love? Well, start with growing in your knowledge and then and and let love flow forth from that, and then let your knowledge make you feel more equipped to share Jesus. That's why I went to bible college. I literally had never considered going.
Amy:This probably makes me sound like very haphazard person, but I just I'd had one too many Sunday family lunches where, you know, an offhanded comment was made about faith and Christianity. I went home and I said to Jesse, I was like, I'm so sick of feeling ill equipped to talk to my family. I'm going to bible college.
Gwen:I relate to
Amy:his life. And he was just like, okay. And, you know, like, just to be transparent, I started with two units, and I was instantly like, this is so hard. Instantly dropped back to one unit. Even that, I was so afraid.
Amy:I hadn't written an essay for years, and I was so afraid. I didn't turn up to my exam. Woah. Yeah. And they called me, and they were like, is everything okay?
Amy:And I was like, oh, I just oh, you know, it's fine. I've just learned. And they were like, look. You've come this far. And they were so gracious.
Amy:They let me sit the exam the next day. I'm not saying turning up to bible college, for example, is an easy thing to do, it will grow your love and knowledge of God and his word slowly, quickly, easily, with difficulty, etcetera, etcetera. It's invaluable whether you're doing vocational ministry or you're a Christian in everyday life, whatever. It doesn't matter.
Jonathan:I appreciate you giving the explaining the benefits of doing that kind of study. I wonder if you can talk specifically about your institution, SMBC. What's something that you think they do really well?
Amy:Oh, so many things. Yeah. I'm I'm a big fan of FNBC. It's been a life changing experience and place for me. Couple of things.
Amy:I mean, you you know, the lecturing there is profound. Like, it the biblical literacy and the knowledge at of the word or the topics, You know, you study Christian ethics. You study church history. You study mythology, mission. You study well, I studied ancient Greek.
Amy:Like so the the knowledge of the lecturers, but it's not just knowledge. It's like they are so excited to see you succeed. You know, one minute they're lecturing in the classroom, the next minute they're having lunch with you asking how life is going. So it's as I said, it's never just, like, knowledge for the sake of knowledge or information. They might be part of your journey as Jesus is transforming you through his word.
Amy:I think another thing I love about SMBC is that it's interdenominational, so it's not affiliated with any one denomination. And I've just always happened to go to Anglican churches. I'm not entirely sure that I'm Anglican or not Anglican, but this has always been where I've been at, but which means I've kind of had certain modes of teaching, modes of thinking. It's just what I've absorbed in my years going to church. Now SNBC, there's Baptist, there's Anglicans, there's Presbyterians, there's FIAC.
Amy:So and we're all committed to the core beliefs of the reformed evangelical faith. So we have, like, unity in that, but different in secondary issues. And so we can rub shoulders and we can disagree, and we are being trained to do that in love Mhmm. And in unity, which is so
Jonathan:So important.
Amy:Valuable. So important. Like and especially then when we go out into the world Yeah. And many people from SMBC go cross to cross cultural mission context where you've then got missionaries, not just the locals, but, like, missionaries from all over the world who've been trained in different ways and think different ways. So to be skilled and exposed to unity and diversity is just so invaluable.
Amy:And then I think just probably the other thing is flexibility. Never would I have gone, you know what? I'm gonna go from full time work to full time bible college. I never would have done that. That is that jump is too big.
Amy:Too big for me. So started with two subjects. Oh, or that's too big. I'm gonna drop back to one. So just their flexibility to let people just be where they're at with theological study, it was the greatest gift to me.
Amy:And then, you know, after six years part time and then I was working at my church during those six years, after I had Penny, I was so convinced of the value of going full time to immerse myself in the community. That's probably another thing. Just the the way the community thrives you is amazing. Yes. Then I did two years full time and did my honor thesis power, and I finished up then.
Gwen:I love it. I think that's phenomenal. And I also think that, like, for people who maybe even that's too much for them. We have got amazing biblical content online for free that you can access. And any amount of knowledge really helps.
Gwen:Like, you start plugging it in. Like, I'm amazed at how when I first started reading the Bible, it was a foreign language. It was like the first time I started reading Shakespeare. And there were so many sections where I was just completely lost. And every time I come back around or every time I hear something else, it straightens things out a little bit and then more makes sense.
Gwen:And so that would be one of those things as well of like, you gotta encourage people, start learning anything.
Jonathan:That's right.
Gwen:And then
Gwen:you can move forwards as well.
Jonathan:I was always we've been teaching through Philippians quite a number of years now for our foundations course, and I'm always struck every time in Paul's prayer, if he can pray one thing for them, he prays that their love would abound more and more in knowledge. And you don't think of those things here. You're like, you were saying, Amy, you often think of, oh, well, to love something, it's an emotional, it's relational, it's it it taps in another part of the beginning. So what the heck is knowledge doing there, know? Why how does our how does my love abound in knowledge?
Jonathan:And the only thing I could compare it to was was when I met my wife and I just want to know everything about her, you know?
Amy:Yeah.
Jonathan:Oh, you you like that song? Oh, that's how you use your knife and fork. Oh, that's how like like all this stuff, but you're just you're as you're getting to know someone, you do wanna know everything about them. And and I would even say, you could probably say, if you don't care, if you don't wanna know, maybe that's a reflection that that love is isn't quite growing yet, you know. So I really appreciate both of you kind of, yeah, encouraging people in that space.
Jonathan:So Amy, maybe you can share with us a little bit what would be some next steps that you might encourage people to do if they wanted to grow in their reading of the bible or their their knowledge of God?
Amy:Yeah. I think often we just expect to open the bible and it all just to happen for us, which is really odd when you think about it because it just doesn't happen in other spheres of life that way. So I love using kind of athletic imagery Yep. Or fitness imagery as I think about spiritual growth, and I think the bible uses some athletic imagery. But I also used to own a dance school and be a personal trainer, so it just tapped into my previous passion.
Amy:So just think, like, you decide you wanna get fit and you go to the gym. And then what happens? You're puffing and you don't get much done, and you probably come away feeling a little bit disappointed and really sore and think, well, is this worth it? So, you know, I think having that maybe not identical experience in mind, but just this idea of, no, getting to know the bible. It's a skill, and it takes investment and work.
Amy:And some days, you're only gonna get, like, a 100 meters on the treadmill out, and some days, and you'll you'll grow 200 meters, a kilometer, five kilometers, etcetera. So I think a really good place to start is just to think about some key principles of what the bible is. You know, the bible is one story broken up into lots of kind of smaller stories, but also smaller genres. And so as you're reading a particular book of the bible, you know, just ask that question of, what is what is this genre? Is this narrative?
Amy:Is this a psalm that's helping me, you know, emote and pray? Is this prophecy? So we're just asking those questions. Is this a letter? Who's it written to?
Amy:Kind of just helping yourself find your footing, you might say. And I think the more we grow our knowledge of the bible as that big story, the more then as we focus our gaze in on the smaller stories and small books and small passages and the and then right down to the verses, it it helps us position them and and make them make sense. I think doing it with a resource or a friend is just so valuable. We are such an individualistic culture, and that believes into our Christian faith and discipline of like, oh, no. No.
Amy:I have to read my Bible by myself in my quiet time, just me and God. You know? The Bible for most of history has been spoken in communities, not read. People weren't literate. They couldn't read.
Amy:And, you know, it's a privilege to have Bibles that are our own, but that doesn't mean that they need that process needs to be individualistic. So you could do a a devotional with a friend or or alone. You could do a commentary that just helps you think a little bit more about the passage. You could do a bible reading plan. You know, there's so many apps now that are free and have these resources available to you.
Amy:And then I think, you know, I personally just try to ask those questions of, like, what do I learn about God? What do I learn about myself? And what do I do next? Like, what what is with that? What's the next step?
Amy:And maybe there's not there's not a step always. Sometimes it's just soaking up knowledge of God's character and how merciful he's been to me, a sinner. Sometimes there is an exhortation. You know, we see that in lots of the epistles in the New Testament as Paul and Peter that, you know, they're writing to the churches, new churches, brand new baby little churches. They don't know how to be Christians.
Amy:So that, you know, if you're feeling like a baby Christian, you could go, well, I need some education on that. And, yeah, the more I think we grasp the big picture, starting in the Old Testament, the more we will just be in awe of Jesus and what he's done for us and what he continues to do in us and through us. So there's a few tips. And I'm sure, like, I'd encourage people to chat to, obviously, the pastoral team at church because I'm sure you guys have resources and, you know, the podcast and the even the foundations course. Like, I assume, Jonathan, someone doesn't have to be a brand new Christian to come along to that.
Jonathan:Not at all. Not at all. Yeah. No. I really appreciate that, Amy.
Jonathan:And thank you for your time today and just sharing with us of your life and experience and your journey with the Lord. It's it's been a great blessing.
Gwen:So much fun. Thank you, Amy.
Amy:Oh, I've had a great time. All glory be to god. Hey.
Jonathan:Absolutely. Well, we might get you to send over some, just some information we can tag into this episode with respect to SMBC. If you wanna share your honors thesis with us, I know Gwen would certainly love to read it. I'd be happy to read it. It sounds pretty amazing.
Amy:Oh, Oh, you're talking my language now. Don't get me so excited.
Jonathan:Yeah. In the meantime, we'll be encouraged to get our torches out and check under the seats of our cars and make sure
Amy:not doing that. I'm afraid. I'm afraid. Oh, no. It's been a delight, guys.
Amy:Thank you much for having me. Bye, Amy.
Jonathan:Well, thanks again. Been another great episode. Really appreciate you hanging out with us today. Gwen, did you have fun?
Gwen:I had so much fun. Amazing.
Amy:I just
Gwen:sit there and go, yes. 100% every time.
Jonathan:Well, I'll tell Arden if he, doesn't hurry up, he's gonna lose his job.
Gwen:He's gonna lose his job. Yeah. He is.
Jonathan:Thanks so much. We'll talk to you guys again soon.