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🎙️ THE Conversation is a monthly podcast that brings together diverse voices to engage in honest, courageous, and deeply relevant discussions about race and justice. Co-hosted by The Rev. Will Mebane and Onjalé Scott Price, this award-winning series was created by Falmouth Community Television (FCTV) to open dialogue and foster education on issues of racial equity—starting at the local level and rippling outward.
Each episode features panel discussions, community voices, and expert guests who explore how racism and bias shape our everyday lives across institutions such as education, healthcare, housing, religion, and more. With a focus on awareness, action, and community connection, THE Conversation aims to inspire lasting, meaningful change—one conversation at a time.
Originally launched in 2020, the show has received the Rika Welch Community Impact Award and continues to spark partnerships, elevate marginalized voices, and support anti-bias education throughout Cape Cod and beyond.
Listen and be part of THE Conversation—because change starts with listening.
00;00;10;13 - 00;00;36;15
Rev. Will Mebane
Welcome to the conversation. A chance for some dialog about issues pertaining to race and racism in our country and the world here on Cape Cod. I'm Will Madden, one of the host of this show here, as always with, I always want to say, like, Vanna White, the lovely. I'm glad.
00;00;37;20 - 00;01;15;07
Rev. Will Mebane
Something. Right. But, with co-host and co-producer Onjalé Scott Price, and we're glad that you have joined us. Host. We have a show for you today. There's lots going on in the world, and some of it is related to what we're going to talk about today, including the international events unfolding. Our focus, though, primarily is on racism in curriculum, curriculum that shows up in, public schools, primary schools, secondary schools, colleges and universities.
00;01;15;07 - 00;01;45;09
Rev. Will Mebane
But all this talk about, and laws now being passed in legislatures all around the country, forbidding, forbidding the teaching of anything about race or racism. And so we're going to explore that today. We have, two very, prominent individuals as our in-studio guest today, joining us via zoom as we continue to protect ourselves during the pandemic.
00;01;45;11 - 00;02;14;12
Rev. Will Mebane
And we've got some, folks also with some powerful comments from, from on the street. And we're going to go to them right now as they address the first question, which is, how does racism influence what is taught in classrooms? So let's hear what they have to say.
00;02;14;15 - 00;02;43;21
Liz Liles
So I'm really lucky, as an English teacher that, I have a lot of freedom in what texts I can teach. So I've been able to work with my colleagues in the English department to really diversify the texts that we're using and the authors that we're using. And that's been one of the ways that we've tried to start to address the canon as it was handed to us, which was a lot of traditionally white Christian older men.
00;02;43;25 - 00;03;05;25
Liz Liles
Right. And we've had a huge amount of support from a Falmouth Education Foundation in supporting, giving us funds to be able to bring new texts into the classroom. So that's been really a really great way to address the racism that kind of gets handed to us. When we when we pick up our textbooks, or our traditional texts.
00;03;05;28 - 00;03;30;27
Matt Green
You know, the curriculum in most classrooms is, is a reflection of the people who are curating it. Ultimately, whether that is the folks responsible for its state standards or a elected school board or the AP, or even an individual classroom teacher, and every, every, every all of us come to that, that curating process with a certain bias, conscious bias, unconscious bias.
00;03;30;29 - 00;03;59;04
Matt Green
And, you know, sometimes those biases are explicit and, you know, in, in service of promoting an agenda like social stability or reifying established power structures, but more, more, more often they're, they're kind of implicit and unconscious and informed by our own backgrounds, our own educational experiences. What we might have been taught ourselves is kind of good or true.
00;03;59;06 - 00;04;37;18
Matt Green
And, and because to varying degrees, we've all been marinating in, you know, in a society that's replete with racial injustice, it really does take conscious acts and high degrees of of self-awareness to not teach in ways that reinforce biases or advance our particular interests or our worldviews. So, so, so that's not surprisingly, you're going to find classrooms that are, to varying degrees, informed by and or unconscious biases or have blind spots.
00;04;37;20 - 00;05;05;29
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, that should, get us started on, our conversation today about race and racism in the classroom. We're now joined by two distinguished individuals with, incredible backgrounds in the field of education. Neither. Which I think needs much introduction to, to this community, now. But I will share a little bit about their background as we go on.
00;05;05;29 - 00;05;25;24
Rev. Will Mebane
But, doctor Seyana we see, is with us, and, and also Doctor Robert Antonucci and, glad to have you back. They have been on the show before, so we are now show number 18. And, We didn't get canceled when you were on.
00;05;25;27 - 00;05;31;12
Bob Antonucci
We said, hey, we set the stage for you. What else do you want? That's it.
00;05;31;14 - 00;05;57;05
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, we've got a heavy, heavy topic. This is so much, as I said in introduction, so much going on in the world, but in this country, there's what I would describe as as an attack. An attack on education. We've got state legislatures all across this country passing bills, legislation, saying you can't teach this in schools, you can't use this word in school.
00;05;57;06 - 00;06;27;29
Rev. Will Mebane
You can't make people feel bad with what you're teaching. I did, so I'm hoping, you are going to help me and our viewers, understand what is going on. But first, I want to see what responses you had to what Liz and Matt had to say from on the street in response to the question, how does how does racism influence what is taught in the classroom, either responding to them or any other thoughts you might want to share?
00;06;27;29 - 00;06;30;25
Rev. Will Mebane
Let's start with you. Seyana
00;06;30;27 - 00;06;58;23
Seyana Mawusi
Mean, I think, you know, just watching people, but just hearing conversations in general, hearing things on TV, hearing, things. It's disturbing. It's disturbing that. I want to know where we think we're going and where we what we hope to accomplish by marginalizing or I'm going to say re marginalize. I don't even think there's such a word. We marginalizing people in, in the community.
00;06;58;25 - 00;07;20;26
Seyana Mawusi
It's, It's almost in a way, and this is my opinion. I just feel sometimes we are being punished for taking a stand, growing, learning, doing everything that we need to do. And then all of a sudden they change the rules when a lot more people voted last year. Yeah, well, not last year, but in the last presidential election.
00;07;20;28 - 00;07;53;17
Seyana Mawusi
People being mobilized, people understanding, people speaking out more. And I think people some people are very afraid of that situation. The best way they can be to maintain their own power is to take power away from everybody else. And not letting you identify yourself, not letting you talk about your history, not letting you just be true to who you are, takes your power away, makes you powerless.
00;07;53;20 - 00;07;57;04
Onjalé Scott Price
You're muted. Rev.
00;07;57;07 - 00;08;23;13
Rev. Will Mebane
Thank you I Bob I know you've, you spent time as a, on several levels of education. You were commissioner of education here in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. You were superintendent of schools here in Falmouth. College president, university president and president emeritus at Pittsburgh State University. So you've seen this, as I've said, on many levels.
00;08;23;16 - 00;08;47;21
Rev. Will Mebane
And, you know, one of the things Matt said in his response was, you know, racism is maintained through the textbooks that we have and what it's taught in the classroom. And by way of full disclosure, I'm a former chairman of the School Committee, Board of Education, or in, a community in Connecticut where I lived for 30 years.
00;08;47;23 - 00;08;58;22
Rev. Will Mebane
So let me get your take, Bob. So I'm how do we perpetuate, this teaching of racism in, in schools?
00;08;58;25 - 00;09;19;15
Bob Antonucci
You know, again, if you listen to teachers and and that was Matt and Liz, and, when I was commissioner, I always made the statement that real education and real teaching is in the classroom between the teacher and students, no matter who's the commissioner, no matter who the governor is, no matter who the superintendent is.
00;09;19;17 - 00;09;45;07
Bob Antonucci
So with that classroom, that really, to me, is the focal point for anything to happen. I think we heard this, from both Matt and Liz talking about teaching. All right. Comments like teachers come to the classroom with a bias. Maybe because of their background, maybe because of the way they were taught. I don't think any teacher is doing anything intentional not to include racism, in a curriculum.
00;09;45;09 - 00;10;06;01
Bob Antonucci
But because of their own background, sometimes they don't know how to do it. So the the the what is pretty easy in my opinion. When I was commissioner, we did state standards and all the academic areas are still in place today and embedded in those standards. Talk about racism and diversity and inclusion. Whether it be race, gender or sexuality, whatever it is.
00;10;06;03 - 00;10;29;24
Bob Antonucci
And it's embedded throughout all of the curriculums. Whether that is successful depends on the teacher. And I think teachers traditionally I'm going to give them credit, has done an exceptional job. I think, Matt made the comment about textbooks and the way textbooks written, and some teachers are still using those textbooks. We really didn't handle racism in the way that it should be.
00;10;29;26 - 00;10;51;27
Bob Antonucci
So I think what we need to do as educators and as former school board members is, to let teachers become more actively involved in how do we deal with this? We need to keep the politicians out of it. If I have my knee operated on, I'm not going to ask the Senate senator from Massachusetts how that should be done.
00;10;51;29 - 00;11;11;09
Bob Antonucci
Yet they feel they can tell schools how it should be done. Nobody can preach like you can preach. Should we have a senator come in to preach? Don't answer that question, but, the issue is leave it to the experts. I mean, I don't think there's any teacher that doesn't want to do the right thing.
00;11;11;11 - 00;11;37;10
Bob Antonucci
And historically, we have done the right thing. Have we made some mistakes? Yes. We have no question about it. I'm a first generation, person. My father was finally. And I look back through the ages where there's some mistakes made and discriminatory practices, probably. But it doesn't mean we can't do the right thing today. And not to not to prohibit schools from talking about racism from a political level or from gay and homosexual.
00;11;37;11 - 00;11;57;16
Bob Antonucci
And any of those issues is wrong. The, the interference in how schools are run and the interference and how students are taught is definitely wrong. Should parents be involved? Yes, they should be. They have been for many years. But at the same time, it has to be this coalition of what's best for students in classrooms at a very young age.
00;11;57;18 - 00;12;08;21
Bob Antonucci
It can't be superimposed on them. It really has to be embedded. As I said earlier, and all of the curricula in all our schools.
00;12;08;23 - 00;12;34;12
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah. You know, I was just thinking about what you said, Bob. And again, remembering my days working with administrators, as a member of the school board and, I learned then, which I didn't know is that most of our textbooks, originate out of Texas. Holy shit. They did then. And I see you're both nodding in there, so that must still be the case today.
00;12;34;12 - 00;13;02;01
Rev. Will Mebane
And then I think about, my goodness, what what's happening in in Texas on many levels and dealing with cultural, social, issues. That's for me that's kind of frightening that those are the people in power that are influencing what is going to be in the textbooks that are then distributed all across the, all across the, the country.
00;13;02;04 - 00;13;36;19
Rev. Will Mebane
But let me I want to challenge you on one thing, Bob. And you said, you don't think there are teachers in the classroom that come with, bias, racism? You know, I want to challenge that because, again, in my experience as both a parent of of students in school to two black sons in, elementary secondary schools, and working with all coaches and, other administrators and faculty in schools.
00;13;36;21 - 00;13;58;16
Rev. Will Mebane
Now, I've run across some, some school teachers who were just outright racist. So I, I appreciate the thought. I'd like to believe that we don't have bias, racists, teachers, administrators in our schools. But I think we have some. What do you say to that?
00;13;58;18 - 00;14;17;25
Bob Antonucci
We definitely do. We have some college professors, we have some K-12 teachers, we have some administrators. That's a very accurate statement. And I think we need to address those issues. And sometimes when I say biases to positive bias, I think I'm going to say most teachers want to do the right thing. I really do.
00;14;17;25 - 00;14;48;21
Bob Antonucci
They want to do the right thing for our students. But there are adults and every profession, that really, in my opinion, shouldn't be in the classroom. Because you need to deal with every single child who knocks on the door, whether they're black, white, green, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, non denominational, and, you know, I think back, years ago in an in-service program when we were really trying to talk about diversity and inclusion.
00;14;48;24 - 00;15;11;18
Bob Antonucci
So some people that was new. It shouldn't be new. I mean, to me, it was just embedded in the way I grew up. And we would have these in-service programs. And it was frustrating because I could tell you who would sit in the last row of the auditorium every time we had this program. And if we sprinkle racial bias just over them, we couldn't get inside their head.
00;15;11;21 - 00;15;33;22
Bob Antonucci
And but that was a minority. And we know who those were, you know. But for the most part, we did this when I was commissioner. We did state standards. The state began to impose what should be taught in schools. All right. That was a change. We worked with teachers. And I tell you, if it weren't for the teachers in this commonwealth, who stepped up to the plate, we wouldn't be where we are today.
00;15;33;22 - 00;15;52;21
Bob Antonucci
We're number one in the country academically, in terms of that, because they were involved. And so I think if there if we identify a, a problem, then we need to address it and how do we resolve it? And we got to work together to do it. It isn't a blame game. I think politicians blame. It's not to blame.
00;15;52;23 - 00;15;59;05
Bob Antonucci
We just need to identify the problem and what could solve it.
00;15;59;08 - 00;16;24;15
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah. I love what, Liz had to say. I'm going to come to you, on a little bit, Liz said about the freedom that she has, and she was celebrating this, to be able to integrate into her curriculum as an English teacher. You know what? What she can teach. And so she doesn't. So we have the state standards and the curriculum that's developed in and, by the school system and all.
00;16;24;18 - 00;16;43;02
Rev. Will Mebane
But she still has this, this freedom. And that's being taken away from so many educators in to see. I know you you weren't, as I said, an educator on many different level levels and, middle school, college and what have you. So what are you thinking?
00;16;43;04 - 00;16;46;25
Seyana Mawusi
You know.
00;16;46;27 - 00;17;17;09
Seyana Mawusi
There's I, I think the problem is it's much deeper sometimes than we look. Yes, teachers get a chance to. Because I've been on a textbook committee. We get a chance to look at textbook committee. But what gets to be put in is still not always that which will solve the problems. When we talk about the history of Africans or the histories of indigenous people, sometimes the even that information is marginally put in in a textbook.
00;17;17;09 - 00;17;50;07
Seyana Mawusi
So you might get this a little bit in, but does that do anything to change how people think and feel? I do think textbooks. I do definitely think teachers bring their own biases to the classroom and work. And I'm not saying that all teaching is bad, but I think when we have this discussion about bias and what we need to teach, we need to also look historically, what what is it that we really want people to know and what's the outcome, what will be the outcome of what we teach?
00;17;50;09 - 00;18;05;25
Seyana Mawusi
And let's look at the outcomes of what we're teaching. Now. Let's look at the outcomes of what we teach. If we really make a program workable, I know a lot of places don't even do all civics. You know how you remember you said learn about your government. And this class is that.
00;18;05;25 - 00;18;07;04
Bob Antonucci
Seventh grade.
00;18;07;06 - 00;18;26;19
Seyana Mawusi
And everything. That's a whole different attitude and way is taught now. I think we have to really decide what we want from our students. Do we want them to pass the test? Do we want them to be wonderful human beings? Do we want this to be an inclusive society? That's what we have to begin to really look at.
00;18;26;22 - 00;18;50;28
Seyana Mawusi
And when you leave people out, you've already you've already started exclusive society where you we're going to exclude people because we're going to leave out your history. We're going to leave out your identity. We're just going to leave you out. We're not going to count and consider you. So I'm hoping that discussions just won't be okay if we're going to really talk about what we're doing.
00;18;50;29 - 00;19;00;02
Seyana Mawusi
I'm hope we're going to look at the outcome and really do a deep dive into history and what we are really saying every day to students in schools.
00;19;00;04 - 00;19;38;01
Rev. Will Mebane
I appreciate you mentioning the lack of civics being taught in class and in the classroom. That was one of my favorite subjects. It was one of the few subjects I got a good grade it, and then all of a sudden, you know, they took it away, you know? But then I was like, I wonder if you could draw a correlation I will love, but maybe some, doctoral student, candidate would do this work, would is there a correlation between, the lack of teaching civics in the classroom and the decline in voter participation in this country?
00;19;38;04 - 00;19;39;20
Rev. Will Mebane
That just came to me.
00;19;39;20 - 00;19;40;18
Bob Antonucci
Yes. Yeah.
00;19;40;20 - 00;19;49;25
Seyana Mawusi
Well, that's I it's that would be an excellent study or even participation period.
00;19;49;27 - 00;20;21;15
Seyana Mawusi
Civics. And, you know, we can also civics is just learning these facts. But what what I know if I had this much power, would I maybe sit back and not do anything? What about groups of people? And I think we have to figure out we when we do that, we exclude people. So then we hear crazy stuff on TV and we don't know whether it's right or wrong, because we never have any knowledge to put towards that.
00;20;21;15 - 00;20;27;08
Seyana Mawusi
So I'm concerned about what's being taught and what's the message.
00;20;27;10 - 00;20;53;29
Bob Antonucci
Yeah. You know, the sad point about that is, you know, along with, well, is, there are still programs with civics, but not to the extent I said seventh grade, because every seventh grader when I went to school took civics. That was that was it. You know, everybody knew what that was going to be. What worries me now about schools and in the civic piece especially, is they're getting all of their information about what civics really is from television.
00;20;54;01 - 00;21;15;10
Bob Antonucci
And from social media and what's happening in Texas. What's happening in Florida, is really not what the fundamentals of this country were built upon. That's the civics we don't want them to know about. You know, discourse is fine. I'm not saying this course isn't going to occur. The problem occurs in selectmen meetings when you have a difference of opinions.
00;21;15;10 - 00;21;40;10
Bob Antonucci
And that's good. A little bit. Right. But it's civil discourse. What we're seeing here in terms of a foundation is not good. I mean, I think the US Senate yesterday, for the very first time in many years, had a unanimous vote that changed their life savings time. Well, that's the biggest issue in this country. And yet we have people being killed and shot at and, and, and the Ukraine.
00;21;40;10 - 00;21;49;12
Bob Antonucci
And yet they come together on that and something wrong about that picture. But the four of us, I don't think can resolve that in this program.
00;21;49;15 - 00;22;08;22
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, I want to hear I want to hear what a someone from a different generation, from ours has to say on this. Let's bring in Angela and, ask her to weigh in, because you went to schools, right? So different schools. And so you had lots of different experiences. What what are you what are you holding?
00;22;08;25 - 00;22;14;01
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah, yeah, for some context, I switched schools every year from second grade to 10th grade.
00;22;14;04 - 00;22;15;19
Bob Antonucci
Oh, my gosh, I did.
00;22;15;19 - 00;22;23;19
Onjalé Scott Price
I skipped the fourth grade, but every other year I was at a different school. That is a much longer story. Not necessarily for this show. But did.
00;22;23;19 - 00;22;25;14
Bob Antonucci
This show 19?
00;22;25;16 - 00;22;59;00
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah, I can do a whole show on that. And so I have a very interesting perspective, having gone to so many different schools, public schools, private schools, private Christian schools, a magnet school, which I think it's kind of like a charter school. So I've been to a lot of different schools, and one thing I can say is as an adult, some of the books that I'm reading, such as Lies My Teacher Told me I'm reading cast, I just finished Color of Law and I'm like, I knew none of these things.
00;22;59;05 - 00;23;20;07
Onjalé Scott Price
I can tell you. I did not hear the phrase reconstruction until I was in college. Like reconstruction era. Never came up. When I was in school. All we learned about Native Americans was the Trail of Tears. It was like it was almost as if, oh, this terrible thing happened. Once we as a country moved some Native American people once.
00;23;20;07 - 00;23;54;16
Onjalé Scott Price
And that was it. There was never any more real discussion about anything to do with Native Americans. It was Martin Luther King was really good. And, Malcolm X not so good, you know, but, you know, so very basic things that I think, unfortunately, as an adult, I'm having to essentially unlearn, unlearn some of these really basic, I don't know what you call like casts of people understanding that Martin Luther King and Malcolm X had differing views, but they had the same goal, and it's not that one was bad and one was good.
00;23;54;22 - 00;24;17;04
Onjalé Scott Price
It was a they just had a different way of doing things. But they but they had a common goal. But those kinds of things, were not taught in school. But I learned a whole lot about European culture and the early part of the Americas from the colonizer perspective. And, and I don't think that that unfortunately has changed very much.
00;24;17;09 - 00;24;40;15
Onjalé Scott Price
So it's almost like I feel it's up to myself now to go to a cousin's or footprints bookstore and buy all these books to learn the actual history. Because I didn't get any of that in school. So, but when one person or one thing I, I think about often is Jane Elliot, the teacher who did the infamous Blue eyes, Brown eyes experiment in her classroom.
00;24;40;17 - 00;25;01;08
Onjalé Scott Price
And I think that is a testimony to a teacher being able to say, I don't maybe have the resources to teach out of these books, but there is something that my students need to learn. And so I'm going to figure out how to teach them. And I know that was a huge controversy when she did it. But we look back at that now, and I look back at that now and think, that was brilliant.
00;25;01;11 - 00;25;30;28
Onjalé Scott Price
That was that was such so amazing. For her to think of doing something so relatively simple that has such an impact. I've seen the interviews of those people, who are now, you know, much older and talking about how they remember the impact that that simple exercise had on them for the rest of their lives. And I think that is a really good example of how, teachers can really take hold of their classrooms and make a difference in their classrooms.
00;25;31;01 - 00;25;55;28
Bob Antonucci
That makes a lot of sense. You know, it relates back to the textbook issue, that we speak about. And again, I work in a publishing arena for a few years. I know a little about that. Why Texas is has so much influence is because they have state mandated textbooks. They're approved by the state Board of Education, the biggest customer of the entire country when it comes to the purchase of textbooks.
00;25;56;01 - 00;26;21;14
Bob Antonucci
So publishers traditionally use the basic standards of Texas to develop these textbooks, which we then what in Massachusetts and California. And I think that's changed. Now as the textbooks become more, you know, online kind of issues. But that was the influence. But that went on for years. I mean, you you bought a series of, say, U.S. history, and that's an eighth grade thing by US history.
00;26;21;16 - 00;26;56;01
Bob Antonucci
Eighth grade text. The Texas influence is and momentum was definitely there. Florida influence was there again, New York to a degree because of the number of students. So that there was that influence that we need to overcome. And I think that's changed too little today. But I also think if you look at this country, if you look at the northeast, where we all are today versus the South and southwest, there's a big difference of opinion about whether racism should be even mentioned in school.
00;26;56;01 - 00;27;08;18
Bob Antonucci
And that's why programs like this are so valuable say it has to happen, and the roadmap to make it happen is going to be very difficult. And we got a lot of bumps to overcome.
00;27;08;20 - 00;27;44;12
Seyana Mawusi
And I think something that Angelique mentioned is so critical is that the history that you mentioned and what a lot of people who are teaching learn the same history, learn the same non history and the same history that you taught? We don't know a lot of different history, even though it's out there. And just like you did different readings and to find different things and I'm not sure and even as you look at what they're trying to legislate now for people that can teach, I'm wondering will Jane Elliott's teaching style and thinking and being creative, how far that will go.
00;27;44;15 - 00;28;10;05
Seyana Mawusi
But I'm still concerned that history is still nowhere near as accurate as it needs to be for, for all peoples, because everybody's history is included in the history. And so I really feel that we have not done a good job, and it has not changed that much. We're still fighting over wars, whether we want to say enslave or slave.
00;28;10;12 - 00;28;33;03
Seyana Mawusi
Yeah. You know, we're still that argument is still there. And I think as we as we approach and look at this reality of what we're doing, we have to be honest and say how many people feel, still feel their history and what they need to know did not come from their education. And what are we again? What is the purpose?
00;28;33;07 - 00;28;35;02
Seyana Mawusi
Why?
00;28;35;04 - 00;29;01;16
Onjalé Scott Price
I think, I'll pass it back to you in a second. I think your question of why and what what do we want the future to look like and and back, almost like backtrack is like, what do we want the future to look like? And then how do we get there if we want the future to to look like it's been looking with the same people in power, with the same people oppressed, with the caste system that we have with the way things are, then we're going to keep doing things the same way.
00;29;01;23 - 00;29;16;18
Onjalé Scott Price
And so if we say we want our future to look different than the way our past has been, then we know we need to do something differently. You know, what is the definition of insanity? Is doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results? Yeah.
00;29;16;21 - 00;29;47;06
Rev. Will Mebane
Right. So this discussion is making me think, but just go back to the original question was, how does racism, how does racism influence what is taught in schools and, you know, I when I hear you, Bob, talk about you were in the publishing arena for, for a bit and, hearing Savannah talk about, you know, what, who is controlling what is being taught in the classroom.
00;29;47;09 - 00;30;31;10
Rev. Will Mebane
So once again, we find ourselves in this in this place where it sounds to me like one of the reasons racism continues to make itself into, textbooks, into curriculum is because those who are in the dominant, culture still in this country, in the majority white country, that not for long, but people who are in charge of the publishing companies or white, the people who are in charge of school boards for the most part, or white, people who are, you know, superintendents of schools are mostly white.
00;30;31;12 - 00;31;04;05
Rev. Will Mebane
We have the same issue in just about every industry, every sphere in this country. I can't remember if it was Liz or Matt that talk about racism being endemic is just a part of this nation. It's part of the country. And I know I think I remember, you know, Matt saying that to to change that, you have to have you have to make a conscious effort to change it.
00;31;04;08 - 00;31;48;04
Rev. Will Mebane
Right. You just can't leave it or wish that it's going to change. Hope that it's going to change. Pray that it's going to change. You've got to take some action to, to change that paradigm, right. To change the power structure that continues to have a hold on what is taught. And if the people in that power have racist views or bias in any way, that's going to continue to find its way into what finds its way onto the, kitchen tables of right children all around the country, you know, doing homework.
00;31;48;06 - 00;31;49;11
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah.
00;31;49;14 - 00;31;51;25
Seyana Mawusi
You know. Oh, I'm so sorry.
00;31;51;27 - 00;31;56;13
Bob Antonucci
No. Go ahead. I'm just thinking a,
00;31;56;15 - 00;32;14;28
Seyana Mawusi
When you when you say talk about, we have to find a way. And what do we have to stop? I know sometimes I. I don't know whether it's happened here, but in California, a lot of people were starting to teach people like they would have Hebrew school. They had Vietnamese children go to school in a certain time.
00;32;15;00 - 00;32;38;23
Seyana Mawusi
Even Greek children going to keep their history and their religion or whatever it was alive because it wasn't going to be taught in the public schools. You know, you hate to say things like that, but I'm concerned now about what is going to happen to African history is already controversial, and where will it be and how will it end up?
00;32;38;29 - 00;33;01;16
Seyana Mawusi
Are we now in order to make a change? Are we absolutely saying that you're going to we're going to have to teach African history over here at the church, or are we going to have to teach different people at so everybody gets a chance to hear, I don't know how we stop and change a system that has been in place for years and years and years and years.
00;33;01;18 - 00;33;24;06
Seyana Mawusi
And so I don't know, but I think we all have a disservice if we're not going to teach and talk about things that are helpful and relevant to the child sitting in that classroom or Paris in that community. And I'm concerned, I'm concerned where do we go? And I'm also concerned how do we change it? And are we?
00;33;24;08 - 00;33;27;29
Seyana Mawusi
The question I have, even though, are we willing to change it.
00;33;29;04 - 00;33;54;12
Bob Antonucci
I think that well yeah. You know you should be concerned. Okay. And I'm more concerned about education that when I was, when we did ed reform in 92 because where there was an excitement and I don't know if you're in the commonwealth that and people all came together from all different places to make things happen. To answer your question, I think in Massachusetts we're going to make it happen.
00;33;54;14 - 00;34;17;13
Bob Antonucci
I think we've been very progressive in our schools. We have a long way to go. In Texas and in Florida. I'm not sure it's ever going to happen again. I see what's happening in those. I don't mean to single out those states. I apologize if people were born in those days, but, from an educational point of view, I wouldn't send my kids to school in Texas or Florida.
00;34;17;15 - 00;34;46;20
Bob Antonucci
When you can't mention racism or you can't mention, religious affiliation or, gender, there's something wrong with that picture. And the way politicians are dictating, you know, what's happening in schools. It's not only schools, it's voting rights. It's, you know, how do we get minorities to get on school boards if we passing these, voting bills that really don't guarantee equality for all?
00;34;46;21 - 00;35;10;00
Bob Antonucci
And so I think, yeah, we're not there. I, I look back to the 60s again. There was an excitement that, you know, people jumped up in arms and said, let's change. And have we made our way? We haven't. I think we're taking steps backwards, you know, as a society when it comes to race and when it comes to gender, when it comes to discrimination and inclusion, and I think that's wrong and, but we can't sit back and let it happen.
00;35;10;02 - 00;35;24;28
Bob Antonucci
My point is, we listen to those, to listen. And Matt, they get it all together. We're not the issue is. And we just got to take that and, take that enthusiasm and that kind of thinking, to a far greater level.
00;35;25;00 - 00;35;57;25
Rev. Will Mebane
You know, I'm, I'm hearing a, maybe a contradiction that's going on in our country right now. On the one hand, there is this in almost every again, institution for profit, non profit, this interest in and this commitment to diversity equity and inclusion. Right. Dei that's the big thing right now. Everybody's and you know the two of you are high paid consultants.
00;35;57;26 - 00;36;21;10
Rev. Will Mebane
I'm sure you're being hired out a lot to help. Systems. But with with that. So on the one hand we've got that going on. And then on the other hand we've got people saying, no, let's not we don't need to be concerned about diversity, diversity and equity and inclusion. No, no, no, no. We we're going to legislate that out.
00;36;21;14 - 00;36;45;13
Rev. Will Mebane
You can't there's not a diversity that's a bad thing. You got to get rid of. No no no. And so it's a contradiction, right. And Bob, some of my best friends live in Florida and Texas. But I don't I don't mind you calling those those states out because, of the decisions that are made by the politicians there.
00;36;45;13 - 00;37;11;07
Rev. Will Mebane
And so, you know, what I heard Matt say was, you know, the politicians are people in power. They are afraid. They're afraid of losing their power. Right? So one way to hold onto that power is to suppress anything that's going to obviously possibly threaten that. And in their mind, diversity, equity and inclusion threatens with that. But here's the question I want to ask you before we going to go to our next question.
00;37;11;07 - 00;37;49;21
Rev. Will Mebane
Unless Andrew has has a comment or question for both of you. So you lots of years in the classrooms and different, different responsibilities, what have you. But my belief is the students in the classroom, they aren't threatened by any of that. They're not threatened by learning about diversity. They're not threatened by learning about racism or what really happened to the indigenous populations.
00;37;49;23 - 00;38;25;19
Rev. Will Mebane
That's not a threat to them at all. It's the, again, people in power that feel threatened and, you know, I've been thinking about what's happening in, in, in the world in terms of Russia invading Ukraine and, you know, Putin is trying to rewrite history. He is trying to say, you know, that Ukraine is a neo-Nazi, going to happen.
00;38;25;21 - 00;38;46;24
Rev. Will Mebane
I mean, some of this off the wall stuff, right? And he's got millions of people believing him in fire. And so he's going to suppress anything that is going to, contradict that. Right? Boy, isn't that the same thing that's happening in this country?
00;38;48;06 - 00;39;25;16
Rev. Will Mebane
We've got people in power, political power, who are going to suppress the true history and not allow students to be able to learn what the real history is of this country. Slavery was is an historical fact. Jim Crow and historical fact. And you mentioned reconstruction and historical fact. You got to teach this anyway, Andrew, you have a comment before we go to the,
00;39;25;19 - 00;39;50;23
Onjalé Scott Price
Jim Crow was another thing that was very briefly mentioned in my history textbooks. And the many schools that I went to. Again, I went to lots of different schools. And, I remember when I actually learned about Jim Crow again in college and afterwards and reading, like I said, The Color of Law. And, the New Jim Crow, reading that book and really, really understanding the history.
00;39;50;25 - 00;40;10;15
Onjalé Scott Price
And I remember thinking how ridiculous it was that I thought Jim Crow was just a synonym for like, separate water fountains. Like, I really just did not learn the deep roots of Jim Crow and what it actually meant in the South, which, of course, I wouldn't have because I didn't learn about reconstruction either. And, and those kind of, you know, they go hand in hand.
00;40;10;15 - 00;40;15;24
Onjalé Scott Price
So we we have a lot of work to do.
00;40;15;27 - 00;40;42;08
Rev. Will Mebane
We do, we do. And, I'm glad we have, doctor Bob Antonucci to help us with that. And doctors say I want to say a lot. Say, Jana, Marcy, help us with that as well. So, listen, why don't we shift over to our, people on the street? Because they're going to answer the second question of the of the of the conversation.
00;40;42;08 - 00;41;11;23
Rev. Will Mebane
And that is how and or why should the history of racism be taught in schools? How it and why should the history of racism be taught in schools? Let's hear what they have to say, and then we'll come back and get your reactions to it. All right.
00;41;11;25 - 00;41;38;17
Matt Green
Why, I think, as we've been discussing, is at the risk of being cliche, pretty obvious, right? Those who are, who don't learn from the past or condemned to repeat it. So my thought is that if, you know, by honestly confronting racism and it doesn't have to necessarily just be here in the United States, black and white, but racism, whenever and wherever it has occurred, you know, you have a better chance of graduating students who are better positioned to break the cycle.
00;41;38;19 - 00;42;08;29
Matt Green
The adult whose experience in history class leads them to say, gosh, I didn't know that happened, or I didn't think that happened, is probably going to be more likely when considering their own society to say, gosh, I don't think that happens or that probably doesn't happen. The how, the how is so much trickier. So the lie to me is, is reasonably clear.
00;42;09;01 - 00;42;31;03
Matt Green
You know, ideally you'd be in a, in a school or a classroom that had a rich diversity of voices that all felt kind of equal access to to the class, to power. And, and we're studying a rich diversity of resources. But, you know, as I said, at least for the time being, our classes tend to be a little more homogenous.
00;42;31;03 - 00;43;07;09
Matt Green
So I guess I'm a how front, I would say, I think it's probably two, two things. And one is I'm repeating myself a little bit, but the first is that I think there's a risk in looking to your Bipoc students to do all of the heavy lifting. When it comes to talking about about the history of racism, and, you know, when it comes to to our white students, I think it's also important to, to not emphasize that that what is happened, what has happened or what is happening is anyone's particular fault.
00;43;07;11 - 00;43;17;19
Matt Green
But that is our shared, our shared responsibility. You know, I think I think in the end.
00;43;17;21 - 00;43;52;05
Matt Green
When you study the history of racism, you really are from just a pure skills point of view, digging into the the second tier thinking skills that all of our schools, you know, spouse say that we're doing, like critical thinking and problem solving. And so a class that was having a very healthy examination of the history of racism, I think by, you know, by necessity would be a class that was engaging in, you know, problem solving and critical thinking skills.
00;43;52;05 - 00;44;10;15
Matt Green
And so and run front, you may ultimately do some significant social good. But along the way you're also developing some, some, some academic and intellectual, you know, some of the academic skills and habits of mind that are going to serve kids, all kids, wherever they head.
00;44;10;17 - 00;44;35;06
Liz Liles
I don't see a reason why we wouldn't teach it. I don't see a good reason why we wouldn't teach it. But I think if you're asking me, like, what would I say to someone who would not want the history of racism to be taught? I think that there's a lot about that history that is uncomfortable, particularly for for white teachers, and for white students.
00;44;35;06 - 00;45;00;13
Liz Liles
And there's a fear of being uncomfortable. I think a reason that people push back against teaching the history of racism is that it really calls into question, our structures of power and who has that power and who has access to that power. And, how that power, allows people to self perpetuate their access to the power.
00;45;00;15 - 00;45;30;24
Liz Liles
And I think that. You know, the other the other thing I would say is that, well, we're already teaching the history of racism. Whether we like it or not, because racism is embedded in our society. And it's a, you know, white cultural norms are a huge part of how we are taught, how we were taught as students, and how we are taught by media to view our students and all kinds of it's, you know, it's in everything that we do.
00;45;31;01 - 00;45;55;25
Liz Liles
So we can either be academic about how we teach the history of racism, or we can be complacent. And if we're going to be academic about it, then we can really self-assess and work on our own, understanding of it and, and get, you know, get to the facts with the students or we can can be complacent about it and we can teach them the lies that have been a part of our education or, our society in general.
00;45;55;27 - 00;46;14;01
Liz Liles
But I don't think people like to be believe that they've you don't want to believe that you've been taught a lie, but you definitely don't want to believe that you've believed lie. And that's a big part of why people are afraid about teaching the truth of racism, both in the history and the present.
00;46;14;03 - 00;46;41;12
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, well, I told you, folks, we, have been educated. We've got two powerful voices from our on the street segment, today. Thank you. To to Matt and to to Liz. You've given us a lot to think about. Very, a lot of is on my heart right now, but I want to see what our panelists have to say in response to this.
00;46;41;15 - 00;46;50;17
Rev. Will Mebane
How and our why. You know, we should, teach racism in the schools, but I'm gonna start with you. What? What do you think? Yeah, well.
00;46;50;24 - 00;47;08;06
Bob Antonucci
You know, Matt makes a good point. I think he asks the question. You know, how does race racism influence what is taught? Okay. And how it's taught? So there are two things I want to start with the how and the why. The why, in my opinion, is very easy. That it should happen. It's a it's a given program.
00;47;08;06 - 00;47;29;12
Bob Antonucci
It's given thinking, it's a given curricula. But it's how it's taught is the question. We know that what makes the difference? We did this with Ed reform. We can identify all the standards that should to be included in school. But we have to understand how do we do that? How do we influence third grade? It's how do we influence eighth graders and how do we influence high school seniors?
00;47;29;14 - 00;47;47;13
Bob Antonucci
And I think that's where, we need to do a lot of work. I think it's happening now. You see a lot of schools getting involved in professional development, but we have to have people. I hate to say this who know what they're talking about. You know, in terms of how do we influence teachers? Teachers are very receptive.
00;47;47;16 - 00;48;03;11
Bob Antonucci
Teachers want to do better. I was a teacher. I wanted to do better. If I want to get help, I want to get the right help. So I think where I, where, influence has to be our impact is, how do we do this? You know, and I think we use people like Liz and and Matt to, to get there.
00;48;03;12 - 00;48;11;29
Bob Antonucci
I mean, you get teachers who know, believe and have tried it to be the one that influences as we move ahead.
00;48;12;01 - 00;48;18;08
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah. As I was listening to this, I was thinking, how fortunate are we to have them in our community?
00;48;18;10 - 00;48;19;06
Bob Antonucci
It's great.
00;48;19;09 - 00;48;24;11
Rev. Will Mebane
That it as as having, the two of you as well. And I'm not.
00;48;24;13 - 00;48;25;17
Bob Antonucci
No, no, they were great.
00;48;25;17 - 00;48;38;21
Rev. Will Mebane
I mean that very sincerely. So, Doctor Blasi, tell us, your response to, that question, what's on your mind a lot?
00;48;38;23 - 00;49;02;03
Seyana Mawusi
And it's, I, you know, I'm not sure we totally understand why we have to teach it. I don't think we really understand is why we have to teach about race, other people's culture, other people's history. I'm not sure we really do. I think we do at some level. But deep down inside we're not. So it makes how a very hard part.
00;49;02;06 - 00;49;29;20
Seyana Mawusi
And if we look historically back, it was against the law to teach Africans that were brought to this country to read. You could be get in trouble for teaching people to read. There's a reason why. For that it wasn't just, oh, I just decided nobody should read. Because if you begin to read, you do get to understand. Begin to teach yourself and something in you will say, this isn't right.
00;49;29;23 - 00;49;30;27
Onjalé Scott Price
Amen.
00;49;30;29 - 00;49;33;18
Rev. Will Mebane
I was going to say, you preaching now, okay?
00;49;33;23 - 00;49;35;08
Bob Antonucci
Yeah.
00;49;35;10 - 00;49;54;10
Seyana Mawusi
And no reason why I'm looking at that. If you go back and you just look at our recent electoral history of elections, how many people got out to vote? How many people got involved in the election? Look what happened in Georgia where they were hoping that the Republicans got in, and then the Democrats got to the people in for the Senate.
00;49;54;13 - 00;50;28;04
Seyana Mawusi
This people are looking at this and people are deciding, whoa, wait a minute. So I think there's a lot of question of what happens when you absolutely give everybody a sense of self. And when you give people a sense of self, people want more. They think better critical thinking, just like Matt said. Absolutely. If you if we can begin to start and having children critically think even about if somebody doesn't want to say, well, this happened, but how did Africans get here?
00;50;28;04 - 00;50;58;07
Seyana Mawusi
So folks, we don't talk about history, but we ask the questions and we do. Critical thinking, I think is empowering. But we have to really stand firm and tall because if not, I'm not sure how. But we also have to be very clear on to why we should do it. And I'm not sure I'm hearing a lot of discussion, not from Matt and from Liz, but I'm talking about from the powers that be as to why?
00;50;58;10 - 00;51;06;08
Bob Antonucci
Well, the powers that be when they answer the question while so we don't need to do it right. That's that's the problem right there.
00;51;06;11 - 00;51;25;10
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that certainly is true. But they're kind of the obvious ones. Right? That's what I like. Again, growing up in North Carolina, I had to deal with the Klan. And then I had to deal the people who were racist. That wore no three piece suits every day. And so I knew where the Klan stood. You know, they were just going to tell me, you.
00;51;25;10 - 00;51;26;19
Bob Antonucci
Know, they didn't know where they are, know.
00;51;26;25 - 00;51;50;05
Rev. Will Mebane
But it was the other folks that were, and worry about and were doing more of the damage. So I, I think, and I keep mispronouncing your name, so. Yeah. Know. So maybe I just recall you saying instead of just, you know. Yeah, we do. We really want to do this? Yes. When do we really want to do this?
00;51;50;07 - 00;52;19;02
Rev. Will Mebane
You know, because once you start telling the truth, what the what's the truth comes out and people's eyes start to open and they start to use their critical thinking skills, they begin to see the world a lot differently than, maybe they have been taught and maybe differently from what the powers that be. We keep saying, how they want them to understand the reality.
00;52;19;02 - 00;52;27;20
Rev. Will Mebane
So I think you've, you've you've raised a very, very good question, Andrew. What are you thinking?
00;52;27;22 - 00;52;50;04
Onjalé Scott Price
I'm, I really keep reflecting on the last thing that Liz said where she said people don't want to believe they were lied to. But most importantly, people don't want to believe that they believe the lie and that that just opens up a whole nother can of worms, because then people as they should. But people are going to start questioning everything, everything that they know to be true.
00;52;50;04 - 00;53;18;08
Onjalé Scott Price
Everything that they feel to be true, just it just starts to unravel. In another book that I read, the conversation late great name, by Doctor Robert Livingston. He poses similar questions. Excellent book, by the way. This is not a shameful book plug. He poses the question about, you know, if you were to go to the doctor and say, I have some sort of ailment, just give me whatever you gave the last guy.
00;53;18;10 - 00;53;46;14
Onjalé Scott Price
You wouldn't do that. You would want the doctor to understand your medical history and what you're feeling and what you might be allergic to, and, and all of these things about you to be able to move forward with, with the prognosis and with medication or whatever is necessary. And so learning our history is the same. How can we expect to move forward and do better if we don't understand how we got to where we are, if we don't understand what led us to this place?
00;53;46;14 - 00;53;57;01
Onjalé Scott Price
If we don't know the history, then we're never going to be able to to really move forward. So those are the things that I better that are on my mind.
00;53;57;03 - 00;54;17;22
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah. That's sort of like what Bob was saying in the beginning of the show. You know, you're not going to excuse me, you're not going to ask a a senator if you need a knee replacement. You know that senator to come in and, replace him, you know? So why are you why are you going to ask a senator to, tell the educators what ought to be taught in our schools?
00;54;17;22 - 00;54;32;13
Rev. Will Mebane
I think so, very, very timely and very powerful. Analogy. You know, but I and the comment by by Liz, I'm going to have to put that on a banner and put it back better.
00;54;32;19 - 00;54;34;01
Bob Antonucci
So yeah, I.
00;54;34;01 - 00;54;39;27
Rev. Will Mebane
Was like, wow, that is deep. And that is so right. That is so true.
00;54;40;00 - 00;54;40;19
Onjalé Scott Price
So right.
00;54;40;19 - 00;54;45;18
Rev. Will Mebane
Because you don't want to believe a lie, but they want to don't want to believe that they were taught, they don't, you know.
00;54;45;18 - 00;54;46;05
Bob Antonucci
Don't want to.
00;54;46;06 - 00;55;13;17
Onjalé Scott Price
Want to believe that they believe the lie. Yeah, yeah. I think, I think that's, that's the critical part because we can all believe that somebody has lied to us, but to believe that we fell for that lie and then built everything we know around said lies. Yeah, I know, I, I know just how I felt, like I said, reading books about reconstruction and, the true history of slavery and the removal of indigenous people from their land.
00;55;13;17 - 00;55;36;14
Onjalé Scott Price
I know how hurt I felt just knowing that I didn't get that information. So being on the a different end of that, knowing that everything that I thought about, why I deserve to have things or why other people were in different places to find out that that was all a lie I could see that being crushing, but. The truth, the truth has to come to life.
00;55;36;16 - 00;56;06;07
Seyana Mawusi
You know, at once. What you said, I relate to that extent was also the same. To the other extent of that is, I remember when I was learning African history and learned about people, and this the gentleman who was teach me says, once you learn this, this will change your life. And, and I hear what you're saying about the different books and the things you're reading, what Liz is saying about people believing and life, it will change your life.
00;56;06;09 - 00;56;28;27
Seyana Mawusi
And, and and that, again, is do we want our lives change? You know, does everybody want to change their lives? And and one thing I do want to say before we, we talked about, Matt talked about that the white students don't have to feel upset. I think once we embrace diversity, I truly embrace it. Everybody has a history.
00;56;29;00 - 00;56;46;13
Seyana Mawusi
Everybody has some good things in their history. Everybody has some bad things in their history. Yeah, that's that's human nature. That's life. And I don't think we have to make anybody feel angry. But we don't we don't have to cover it up and say it didn't happen either. But I think we have to say this is not about making you feel bad.
00;56;46;14 - 00;57;10;06
Seyana Mawusi
This is about all of us becoming free, that we can don't have to carry that burden. So, no, I don't think learning or history has to cut down or take another person totally out. I think we can still talk intelligently, do critical thinking, and we learn what it is so we don't repeat the same mistakes we're about to repeat.
00;57;10;08 - 00;57;14;17
Seyana Mawusi
If we don't do anything.
00;57;14;19 - 00;57;15;06
Bob Antonucci
Can I add.
00;57;15;06 - 00;57;24;20
Rev. Will Mebane
There there's a saying and saying in, someplace I heard this, the truth will set you free. Yes.
00;57;24;22 - 00;57;25;00
Bob Antonucci
Yeah.
00;57;25;01 - 00;57;26;16
Onjalé Scott Price
Sounds familiar.
00;57;26;18 - 00;57;28;14
Bob Antonucci
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00;57;28;17 - 00;57;33;04
Rev. Will Mebane
But give us your thoughts. I know you're sitting with the something in there.
00;57;33;07 - 00;57;57;01
Bob Antonucci
Yeah. No, I, I think, you know, I, I think, yeah, I would change sides, but the one point I think is interesting is, is every ethnic group, every race has a history. And I think learning history is good. There's nothing wrong with it. It's how we do it and what we do with it, and it will make some people uncomfortable, but so what?
00;57;57;03 - 00;58;23;06
Bob Antonucci
The more uncomfortable you become, the more you open your mind and learn. And so I think as we move forward, I don't think we can say we can't. And I wanted to and we're not blaming anybody for this time. People did what they thought they were doing was right during the time they lived. All right. As we became more educated and as we became more civilized, we looked back on things that should never have happened, and that happening.
00;58;23;08 - 00;58;40;24
Bob Antonucci
So as long as we can open our minds, to influence the decision makers to do the right thing, I think that's the first step that has to occur. If we're going to see real change, rather than putting up a poster, we need to get in the minds of people. And by their actions, they can make a difference.
00;58;40;26 - 00;58;46;00
Rev. Will Mebane
For Bob, someone else. People who were doing bad things knew they were doing bad things, that they did them anyway.
00;58;46;03 - 00;58;58;07
Bob Antonucci
Oh, no question about it. Oh yeah. How would you not? You know, if you rob a bank, you know you're robbing the bank, right? And right. No question. You got the gun, you got the mask, and you're asking for the money. Yeah.
00;58;58;09 - 00;59;25;22
Rev. Will Mebane
Right. Right. Yeah. Right. But I, I kept coming back and to what I said just before the break, and it just came to me as we were, we were talking about this, this comparison I'm making, at least in my mind, between Putin's Russia and what's happening here. You know, Matt said, those who don't know their history are destined to repeat it.
00;59;25;24 - 00;59;36;28
Rev. Will Mebane
Right? So if we don't tell the history, take that to is extreme, which may not be that extreme. Are we going back to enslaving people?
00;59;37;00 - 00;59;37;17
Bob Antonucci
Yeah.
00;59;37;19 - 00;59;44;07
Rev. Will Mebane
I'll be going back to considering black people, you know, 3/5 of a of a human being.
00;59;44;09 - 00;59;46;07
Bob Antonucci
Yeah.
00;59;46;09 - 01;00;08;21
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah. And how is that any different? So not not wanted to teach that history. How is that any different from what Putin is doing? And, you know, forgive me, folk, for the soapbox amendment for a moment that I'm, you know, so everybody, most of us or myself included, are horrified by what we're seeing happening in Ukraine.
01;00;08;21 - 01;00;41;26
Rev. Will Mebane
Right? Absolutely horrified. And, in our hearts, aching for the Ukrainian people and the refugees that have left. It's just just horrific. And yet the some of those, those politicians who are now saying, oh, we gotta go get Putin, we gotta, you know, close the skies, we've got to, you know, do whatever we can to defend and come to the aid of the Ukrainian people.
01;00;41;29 - 01;00;55;04
Rev. Will Mebane
Because Putin is telling a lie. He's not telling the whole truth. He's not telling people in Russia what's really happening in Ukraine. Well, if we don't teach history here, if we got politicians here saying, don't teach that. No, no, no, no.
01;00;55;04 - 01;00;55;19
Bob Antonucci
All right.
01;00;55;22 - 01;01;00;16
Rev. Will Mebane
Don't teach that that. No no no no no. We're doing the same thing okay.
01;01;00;18 - 01;01;01;19
Seyana Mawusi
Kettle black.
01;01;01;22 - 01;01;02;15
Bob Antonucci
I agree.
01;01;02;18 - 01;01;04;07
Rev. Will Mebane
That's another saying right.
01;01;04;10 - 01;01;05;09
Bob Antonucci
Yeah.
01;01;05;11 - 01;01;29;05
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah. You know I, I've like I said I've done a lot of reading definitely in most recent years. And one thing I often think about is people read about tragedies of history. So someday some children who are not here now are going to read about what's happening in, in Russia and Ukraine. Now, same way we have read about the Holocaust and slavery.
01;01;29;12 - 01;01;53;15
Onjalé Scott Price
And it's very, very easy to say, oh, I would have done something, I would have done this or that. I would have been on the right side of history and unfortunately, I don't think that's as true as we'd like to believe, because right now there's a lot of people who are side of history, but they would like to think that when they look back on other injustices happening, that they would be on the right side of history.
01;01;53;22 - 01;02;10;04
Onjalé Scott Price
So I hope I don't I don't know what my point is. I guess my point is I hope that when people think about what can be done now, that they will think, what is the right side of history that I want to be on in the future? And what are the actions that I can take now to be on that right side of history?
01;02;10;06 - 01;02;14;04
Bob Antonucci
Oh yeah, good point.
01;02;14;07 - 01;02;37;03
Rev. Will Mebane
On that was saying, I think this is where you started to, Bob. And coming out of the out of that question, the question isn't, you know, whether we should be doing it or not. You know, why we should be, teaching about the racist history of this, this country. But the hard part is the how.
01;02;37;05 - 01;02;38;04
Bob Antonucci
Right.
01;02;38;06 - 01;03;02;12
Rev. Will Mebane
So, yeah, I'm still going to hold on to what you said about the big question is, do you know, why do we want to do it? And really do we really want to do it? But I think the the how question is a if we agree that we should teach it, teach the real history, then the question becomes, how do you do?
01;03;02;14 - 01;03;26;26
Rev. Will Mebane
And, Liz was talking about all the other forces against which we have to fight in order to get the truth out. And whether that's media, you know, the media and how they portray, people of color and, and others. So there's a lot to fight through on this.
01;03;26;28 - 01;03;50;20
Seyana Mawusi
You know, it is a lot to fight through. Come back a couple of couple of couple of years. I started a school, an African center school to teach history to give everybody was talking about, you know, at that time, a lot of African-American students were being placed in special, different programs. They couldn't do this. They couldn't do that.
01;03;50;22 - 01;04;20;03
Seyana Mawusi
And there's that part of me that just didn't believe that. And we began we started a school where we started teaching African history. And I want to say, those things that we taught are successful all the way up through and mostly went to college and wasn't a history of hate with teaching about hating anybody else, just celebrating who you are, celebrating you have knowledge and celebrating that you can learn, and that you have people who have contribute to the well-being.
01;04;20;03 - 01;04;43;28
Seyana Mawusi
And everybody needs to hear that. Every ethnic group, we all need to say it because we just didn't evolve. Everybody helped. And I think we have to say the history and, well, I want to add one other thing that I look at history and I look at historical things. Just just take the just take the standard rise test all across the country.
01;04;44;01 - 01;05;18;13
Seyana Mawusi
It pans out the same. There's always more brown and black children in the lower proficient not eating it. Then, children who are, you know, white children was tells us there's something inherently wrong. We're missing something. That's another how we have to look at that. Test scores across the country look the same.
01;05;18;15 - 01;05;37;14
Onjalé Scott Price
I read somewhere that the people who make the S.A.T., whatever that terrible company is, they they have done their own research that shows that the S.A.T. is not. The scores in the S.A.T. do not correlate to a student success in college. It correlates to the income of their families.
01;05;39;05 - 01;05;44;10
Onjalé Scott Price
And yet we still require them. I mean, there are a lot of schools in recent years.
01;05;44;10 - 01;05;47;24
Bob Antonucci
Most schools, now that I mean.
01;05;47;26 - 01;05;55;10
Onjalé Scott Price
But it took a while even though we, we knew that because it was, it was still a barrier that that could be upheld.
01;05;55;13 - 01;05;57;11
Bob Antonucci
Yeah.
01;05;57;14 - 01;06;01;17
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah. Bob you, you played in that arena for a while with standardized.
01;06;01;20 - 01;06;24;01
Bob Antonucci
Yeah. We we did. And you know, and it's true, I think there's a number of the family does influence, you know, what happens. You know, the SAT is really like a ticket to get into school. And now you're seeing that being dropped by the elite schools and never mind the state schools, because, you know, I think there was, a discriminatory aspect of that.
01;06;24;08 - 01;06;46;08
Bob Antonucci
And if you look at test scores across even Massachusetts. Yeah, urban areas where we have the highest concentration of minority students, there is with you lower test scores. So that's another whole program. What are we doing to help minority students get up to the level that they should be? And so they they get out of that need improvement category and become exemplary.
01;06;46;10 - 01;07;08;26
Bob Antonucci
And that's another story. But we need to do that. And it can't be through a test. I think the there's a lot of bias. And and in the language of a test, you know, you get a Native American grows up in America, Native American family try to decipher some of the language, that the questions contain. It's a barrier.
01;07;08;29 - 01;07;10;06
Rev. Will Mebane
The cultural bias that.
01;07;10;08 - 01;07;11;21
Bob Antonucci
Exists, not.
01;07;11;23 - 01;07;45;10
Rev. Will Mebane
You know, the. But yes, you're right. I am reading more and more about fewer, fewer and fewer schools requiring that or picking the act or the S.A.T.. You know, the ticket to entry. Yeah. Just one personal site. I won't divulge my SAT scores, but they weren't. They weren't good enough to get into, the University of North Carolina, where I got my undergraduate degree and certainly not good enough to get into Yale, where I got my masters and you're.
01;07;45;13 - 01;07;47;23
Bob Antonucci
You're a better man for having done what you've done.
01;07;47;27 - 01;08;06;09
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, but you know it. I think it just it proves the point, I think. And the same thing with that with our oldest son, SAT scores. No, nobody wanted to admit him. No, he's got to go to a junior college or he's got to go to a community college. Nothing wrong with that. But, you know, he got a master's from Yale.
01;08;06;14 - 01;08;12;03
Rev. Will Mebane
He now got he now has his PhD, you know, so you know, the scores don't.
01;08;12;06 - 01;08;12;19
Onjalé Scott Price
They don't mean.
01;08;12;19 - 01;08;16;17
Bob Antonucci
They don't tell us. They don't tell us that. And. All right. You know.
01;08;16;18 - 01;08;35;01
Seyana Mawusi
When you talk about having a correlation between civics earlier and you were saying, let's look at it was there is there a correlation. Let's look at the correlation. If we are tracing an all inclusive history where I looked and I could look in a school, I could see me in the school or everybody could see each other in school, would that change.
01;08;35;03 - 01;08;35;24
Bob Antonucci
You know.
01;08;35;26 - 01;08;51;10
Seyana Mawusi
And would that change. Right. That's a study that we also need to look at is also with that change. So there's a lot of questions that we have to to, to really look at to make a difference for our students coming here.
01;08;51;11 - 01;08;58;20
Onjalé Scott Price
Say to anybody out there who's a history major, philosophy interest, education major, if you're looking for a PhD thesis, we got you.
01;08;58;21 - 01;08;59;17
Bob Antonucci
There it is.
01;08;59;19 - 01;09;01;10
Seyana Mawusi
Yes.
01;09;01;12 - 01;09;07;24
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah. Somebody somebody other than me. Because I'm done right now.
01;09;07;27 - 01;09;53;22
Rev. Will Mebane
Hey, listen, it's been great to. And to have Doctor Savannah mousey with us. Yes. Consultant. With a stellar background in education, started at Luxor Academy out in California and is now consulting and helping the fam with school district. I understand with, with some challenges that they're trying to overcome. Grateful for your presence. Doctor Robert Bob Antonucci, former school superintendent, former commissioner of education in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, former president of Fitchburg State University.
01;09;53;25 - 01;10;08;06
Rev. Will Mebane
Thank you both for helping us, with this conversation. It's been a great conversation. And, Angie, always good to hear that younger perspective. Two things that you bring to to the conversation.
01;10;08;08 - 01;10;10;09
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah, we keep it that way for a while.
01;10;10;11 - 01;10;51;10
Rev. Will Mebane
Thank my thanks to to to Matt Green and to, Liz Liles for really some incredible, contributions as well as our people on the street today. That's it for, episode 18 of The Conversation. We look forward to, God willing, having another opportunity to be engaged in conversation with you about issues around race and racism as they affect our world, and particularly here where we live in Falmouth, thanks to Sctv, to, that were Deborah Rogers and to Alan Russell in particular for for their help with today's show in all ways.
01;10;51;12 - 01;10;54;24
Rev. Will Mebane
So that's it. Until the next time. Bye for now.