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Every product leader has to make them: the high-stakes decisions that define outcomes, shape careers, and don't come with easy answers.
The Hard Calls podcast, hosted by Trisha Price, features candid conversations with product and tech leaders about the pivotal decisions that drive great products and the pressure that comes with it. From conflicting priorities and unclear success metrics to aligning teams and navigating executive expectations, you will hear compelling stories and best practices that drive business outcomes and help you make the Hard Calls.
Real decisions. Real stakes. Real leadership.
Presented by Pendo
Learn more at pendo.io/
Follow Trisha Price on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trisha-price-3063081/
Jodi McDermott: Well, it comes
down to what's good revenue, right?
So even if, so, you know, somebody
put on the table at that time, well,
what if we keep building it and we
just have a dedicated development
team that does the work and we just
carve it off and set it over here?
Okay, well, but it's never,
it's never gonna grow to be a
10 million, $20 million product.
So you're never gonna get that
enterprise value multiple off of it.
It's this one thing over here.
So is it "good revenue?"
That's not really good revenue.
Trisha Price: If you build
software or lead people who do,
then you're in the right place.
This is Hard Calls, real decisions,
real leaders, real outcomes.
Hi everyone, I am Trisha
Price, and welcome back to
another episode of Hard Calls.
The podcast where we bring on the
best product leaders from across the
globe to talk about those moments, the
decisions that matter, the Hard Calls.
On today's show, I am thrilled to welcome
Jodi McDermott, a three-time Chief Product
Officer who is now serving as a board
member, as well as advising and coaching
c-suite on how, how to help drive business
outcomes and build great products.
She is greatly respected because
of her track record of delivering
exceptional returns and her passion
for building authentic relationships
that foster business outcomes.
Welcome to Hard Calls, Jodi.
Jodi McDermott: Thank you.
Trisha Price: I'm so excited for you
to be here and for this conversation.
Jodi and I have known each
other for a while and I'm just
so excited for her to share her
experience today with all of you.
So, Jodi, today, this
is called Hard Calls.
Our podcast is Hard Calls, and
so we always like to start with
a hard call you've had to make.
So tell us, looking back over your career,
or even just the past year, whatever,
share a hard call that you've had to make.
What made it so challenging
and what did you learn from it?
Jodi McDermott: Well, I think as a
Chief Product Officer, you have a lot
of Hard Calls that you have to make.
I mean, the buck stops with you, right?
I mean, you this role, Trisha
as well, we've talked about it.
And it usually comes down to people,
products, and sometimes customers too,
if trying to make those Hard Calls.
So, when I was thinking about
our conversation for today and what
two Hard Calls, that I could think
of that popped to my mind over the
last several years of my career.
And I can't say that it didn't
happen, not more than once 'cause
it, they come all the time.
They usually come down to people
and obviously, and what you're
doing around products, right?
So let's start with people.
At the end of the day, people
are what make businesses tick.
And when you are a leader and you
have people on your team, especially
'cause your team gets larger.
You have people that you trust that
bring great experience and expertise.
And then you also have people who have
been on the journey with the company for
a long time who might be cheerleaders
and loyalists, and they are, they've
contributed so much, but maybe something
about the company's really changed.
And it's time for new leadership.
And so I think those hard calls
every executive faces and I can
think of a couple of hard calls
particularly that have fallen into
both of those categories with people.
If you've ever had somebody in
your organization that maybe
was a really high performer,
but they weren't a cultural fit.
Trisha Price: Yes.
Jodi McDermott: And maybe they ruffled
a lot of feathers and it wasn't
one time, but it was continuous.
There's been times I've had to make
a really hard call to move a high
performer out because I knew it was
pulling down the rest of the team.
And sometimes it's hard to
even see it's happening.
And because people are afraid to say
something and you have to be watching
out for that to be able to protect,
the totality of the team, right?
And other hard calls have included when
you have somebody who's a performer
that they're a wonderful person.
They're a wonderful human being,
and you know they are gonna crush
it in a different role, but the role
they're that they're in is not what
you need for your actual team, right?
To get you where you're gonna go.
Trisha Price: I love that, Jodi.
It's so hard.
At nCino where I worked prior to coming to
Pendo Pierre, our CEO, had this quadrant,
and he would call it the competent
jerk was the exactly what you were just
talking about, and the lovable fool.
And he kind of had this quadrant of
exactly what you're talking about.
And I love the conversation about when
people are in the wrong role, even though
you know they're not just an amazing
cultural fit, but they have value to
add, but just not in the role they're in.
I think the hardest part of that call is
when they don't see it, when they love
the job and you're like, oh my gosh, I
know your career's gonna explode if we can
give you access and opportunity somewhere
else, but they don't wanna take it.
That is probably the toughest scenario.
Jodi McDermott: It really is.
It's hard because I love people.
I'm a people person and it's hard
when you have to sit down and have a
really hard conversation with somebody.
Because you just want them, you know
they're gonna be better on the other
side, at the end of the day, if you can be
kind, and clear on what needs to happen.
But another hard call that I wanted
to share with you is that there
was a product hard call that I
think took me a while to make.
And I had, it was, we had acquired
a company that had a product that
they were building for one customer.
So it was a, a product that they had
contracted to build this product.
And everybody felt like they were close to
the finish line, close to the finish line.
And every quarter that would go by.
We just needed one more quarter.
One more quarter.
And I had a few executives
on, my peers that were going,
what are we doing over here?
Why are we spending money on this?
But, when you especially when
you acquire a company, you
have a new customer coming in.
You're trying to be a
promise keeper, right?
Like product, you're trying to be promise
keeper as much as you possibly can.
And that was one that was a really hard
call that we finally made the decision
that we were gonna go negotiate to get
out of this agreement, and that we had
to say, no, we had to stop because we
didn't see profitability down the line.
At one point we did, and then it
just kept dwindling and dwindling.
And especially when you are working in
private equity and you have a timeline
for how you're spending those R&D dollars.
You just can't be deploying it where
you're not gonna get the return.
And that was a really, really hard call.
And I would say that was probably one
that I was, it was definitely influenced
on, it was there, it was discussion
with my CEO, and my CFO, and others and
how we were gonna manage the customer.
But that was a hard one.
As a product officer of having to go
and tell a customer, "No, we can't keep
going and we can't keep doing this."
Trisha Price: That I'm so glad
you shared that because sunsetting
products or disappointing a particular
customer is probably one of the
hardest things we do as CPOs.
You and I both know, even
if you finished the product.
Products are never finished, right?
Jodi McDermott: No.
Trisha Price: And so it's like even if
you met the needs of that particular
customer and got live there would've
been asks for forever for that.
And making that difficult decision
not to do a one-off for a customer,
but to try to invest those
R&D dollars where you can get.
A multiple where everybody's using it is
obviously always the right choice, but
that doesn't mean it's the easy choice.
Jodi McDermott: Well, it comes
down to what's good revenue, right?
Somebody put on the table at that time,
"Well, what if we keep building it and
we just have a dedicated development
team that does the work and we just
carve it off and set it over here?"
Okay, but it's never gonna grow to be a
10 million, $20 million product, right?
So you're never gonna get that
enterprise value multiple off of it.
It's this one thing over here.
So, is it good revenue?
It's not good revenue.
Yeah.
So, those are the hard ones when,
and then you have people on the other
line that you have friendships with
and, or at least relationships with.
Trisha Price: Yeah.
Trust.
Jodi McDermott: And having to go and
have that conversation's really tough.
Trisha Price: It's so hard.
And you mentioned, the fact that it
was private AI equity-backed, and
when you're in PE that pressure, that
pressure to get a return from your R&D.
And how do you, when you're a CPO or
in the C-suite at a private equity
company where there is tremendous
pressure to deliver value, how do you
balance that rapid value creation that
need for good revenue quickly with the
need for long-term product innovation?
Jodi McDermott: I think a lot
of it has to do with getting
telemetry around your R&D spend.
Yeah.
Where are you spending the dollars?
Right?
When I usually walk in the door
at any company, the first thing I
wanna know is where are the people?
Where are the dollars
associated with those people?
How are they deployed against
the product architecture?
What's the ARR?
What are the bookings?
What were the bookings last year?
What are the bookings this year?
Or what's the potential for the bookings?
And what is that percentage allocation
against, those baseline numbers, and are
we deploying it in a way that's optimized?
Are we spending everything trying
to get outta tech debt or are we
just grow, grow, grow, and we're
mounting tech debt on the other side?
The goal is to have a good,
healthy balance in there.
And getting it carved out where you have
those growth dollars carved out at a
really healthy percentage and then stack
rank or organizing it in a myopic way
of, okay, what are we gonna invest in?
Right?
Where's that cut line?
We can't do everything.
Yep.
What?
What are all the opportunities
that we can go after?
And then it's a lot of
financial discipline.
Yeah, so I encourage CPOs bring your FP&A
team in and get them really close to you.
Right?
I always wanted.
My FP&A analyst, who is my, who is
mine, I know who is my FP&A analyst.
Trisha Price: Jodi, I was at the Pendo
headquarters last week in Raleigh, and
I saw the FP&A analyst who I worked
so tightly with my first couple of
years at Pendo and I was like, Matthew!
Matthew!
And we built so many spreadsheets
together when I first came into
Pendo, just specifically for me
and how I needed to look at things.
And I am so with you.
Those numbers matter so much.
Jodi McDermott: Mine with
Allister, you're out there.
Allister, he, Allister was amazing and
just, was a strategic thought partner of,
okay, well, if we deploy R&D resources
in this region, what's the cost?
Well, wait.
With the talent over here in this
region, so how much is it gonna cost?
And how quickly could we build something
versus can we do a slow roll on it?
Do we swarm on it?
And all the different
scenarios around that.
Which goes back to how quickly do
we have to go to market, right?
How quickly do we need to launch
something in private equity you
don't have years to build a product
to eventually get it out there.
You have maybe a quarter or two, to put
you put a stake in the ground and then
you've gotta iterate it off of it quickly
and start building that snowball of ARR.
Trisha Price: Yeah.
Jodi McDermott: Yeah.
Trisha Price: And so, when you're doing
that and you're pulling together numbers,
do you have standard percentages that
are in your head that like if they're
not spending on sort of tech debt
and modernization, it's a red flag?
Or if they're not spending in
growth, that it's a red flag?
Or is it more nuanced than that?
Jodi McDermott: I think it depends
on the stage of the company.
I mean, what 20-year-old SaaS company
doesn't have a mound of tech debt, right?
It's kind of rare these days.
Trisha Price: Maybe 10 years, right?
Jodi McDermott: Even 10 years.
Yeah.
I think, startups nowadays, they're
going out there and they don't have
that tech debt, and so a lot of times
they're getting products out to market
really, really quickly, but then they
hit a scalability issue and they have to
re-architect their foundation, et cetera.
You're gonna hit at some point that you're
gonna hit some level of a distribution.
I always like to start with a
distribution of what I call,
maintain, sustain, and grow.
30%, 30%, 40%. Now, that is
not true for all products.
It is not true for all companies.
I mean, it's just a starting
point to say, okay, where are you?
And then of course there's always a big,
huge debate over well, what goes into
retention, what goes into maintenance.
I have never joined any company
where there has not been a religious
discussion around that topic.
But I think that's a good starting point.
And then knowing, here's the main thing.
If you walk into a company and
it's 50% retention work in 50%
maintenance, and you're not doing
anything to grow the business, well,
you got a red flag right there.
Right, right.
So there's no perfect number.
It's more so of, where are
you against the baseline of,
are you high or low or medium?
And where do you think you need
to be to actually hit the numbers
of what's in your financial plan.
And what can you do creatively to
challenge your engineering team for what
they need to be doing on the technical
side or challenging your product managers?
Hey, what I like to say, don't be in
the hamster wheel of just doing like
feature, feature, feature, feature.
What are we doing to really grow
and build muscle in the business?
Trisha Price: So you mentioned earlier
that when you are trying to do new
features or new products that have
intentional growth or ARR goals,
you don't have years, you don't
have two and three years to do that.
In this atmosphere, you have a quarter or
a couple of months, maybe two quarters.
How do you manage that?
How do you manage getting a quality
product out there for people and driving
those business outcomes at the same time?
Jodi McDermott: I think it
depends what it is, right?
It's it you always have your
build by partner scenario.
Yep.
And so if you've got a core baseline of
a product and you can iterate quickly to
get a new module built onto it, or you can
stratify from, a bronze, silver, gold into
a platinum version of that product and
hit a new segment or TAM of the market.
Those are opportunities.
I think that's all of the work that
you're constantly doing of, okay, how
long will it take for us to stretch in
this press, part of our ICP to expand
out if we do these X, Y, Z things, right?
Who can we go buy that's already built
a company that we can integrate in that
would be a good partner for us, right?
Yeah.
And it always takes two to tango.
They may not wanna sell
even though you wanna buy.
Right?
And then there's always
a partner route too.
Partner routes can have
pros and cons of partnering.
Because you can get stuck with a partner
where you don't have enough control
over what you wanna do et cetera.
And so I think it's, it's getting your
product team to always be thinking about
what can we do to be building off of the
base that we already have, and then what
are those opportunities usually in an M&A
standpoint, especially in private equity
because of the timeline to go build and
integrate and pull something new in that
we can cross sell into our customers.
Trisha Price: That makes a lot of sense.
So when you think about the processes of
building products, maintaining products
in private equity, and honestly in
these days, for all of us, operational
efficiency is just critical, right?
Margin profitability is so important.
Are there particular processes or
structures that you have been able
to change or unlock that have really
helped you see significant gains?
Jodi McDermott: Oh, Trisha,
you're gonna love my answer.
Trisha Price: Oh, boy!
Jodi McDermott: You know what
I'm gonna say, don't you?
Trisha Price: I hope so.
Jodi McDermott: Product operations
is near and dear to my heart.
Trisha Price: Product operations.
I love it.
And we did not plan to talk
about product operations.
Jodi McDermott: I know, but
like, isn't that what Pendo is
famous for is essentially, is it?
You sit right in that core function.
Yeah.
I'm a huge fan of product operations.
I think it's a really critical
function in a product organization.
It literally can give leverage to a CPO if
they know how to really use that function.
It can, it's just an extension of
them getting everything done from an
executive, an administrative standpoint
that you need to get done to support
a strategic operating cadence.
And so, I'm a big believer that
if you can build out a strong
operating model and there's lots of
operating models out there, pick one.
It like, there's no
perfect operating model.
I think we all have had exposure to
operating models and we make it our own,
but whether it's that cadence of making
sure that your team is, touching certain
aspects of their product development
lifecycle on a regular cadence and showing
their work, whether it's bringing in the
right tooling and nowadays a lot of the AI
tooling that's coming into place, right?
So, it's implementing things like Pendo
and actually using the data and getting
the telemetry to optimize what users are
doing and how they're using the product.
So, I think product operations is a
really great place to start of just
getting standards in place across the
board for, for product managers that
let them do their job and give them
the freedom to really explore and
spend time with customers and users.
Trisha Price: I love that.
Yeah, I totally agree with you, Jodi.
In terms of product operations, for me,
what I love about it is it can help us
always baseline our product conversations
in a business outcome, right?
What were we trying to achieve
last quarter or last month?
What are we trying to achieve and why?
And are we, and it's okay when we're not.
Let's not just keep doing the same thing.
If we're not, but being able to have
that measurement of what the outcome is.
And sometimes it's usage, like you talked
about Pendo, sometimes it's ARR, right?
Sometimes it's support tickets we're
trying to reduce in a particular
product, kind of to your point,
depending on the product's maturity.
But I love how product operations can
really help us look at each product,
look at each initiative, where we are
in the product development life cycle,
and help bring that rigor of measurement
to the table for our conversations.
Jodi McDermott: Yeah, and it opens
up at the end of the day too, if
you have that operating model in
place, you start to find where you're
spending dollars that you shouldn't.
Or where it's time to stop investing in
a product and let it ride for a little
while and get it ready to be sunset.
A good product operations leader
is watching that entire cycle,
and really helping to optimize it.
Trisha Price: I love that.
So true.
So switching gears a little bit and
coming back to your other, your first
hard call, which was around people.
I know that as a leader, you
are a great product leader.
You know how to do things like
make decisions based on data and
investment data and product operations,
but you also know the how to hire
and put together a great team.
And I know you emphasize
servant leadership.
And trust-based vulnerability.
How do you create that kind of
special culture where the right
people want to come work on
your team, but at the same time.
There, the pressure to deliver
results doesn't go away.
Right?
Like, just because we have a great
culture, just because we, are
a people-first and care about
people, doesn't mean that we
don't have pressure and results.
So tell me how you balance those.
Jodi McDermott: Oh, you know
the last team, my last team.
I think we did a really great
job of of building that.
You do have to make sure that you
get your team together, you get them
offsite, you spend time doing things
outside of the office, if you will,
and you get them knowing each other.
And one of, I think the best examples
was my last CTO partner, he and I were
really great partners of bringing our
product leadership team together and
engineering leadership team together.
Trisha Price: Love that!
Jodi McDermott: They needed to really
build that vulnerability-based trust.
And we had multiple cultures involved.
So we had Americans, we had Canadians,
we had British, and we had Indian.
Right?
So, everybody thinks differently.
They express themselves differently.
Some of some are more direct, some are
a little bit more subtle in the way that
they talk about what's important to them.
And so we would do a weekly call
that we held every single week,
and we took turns of who was gonna
facilitate and who was gonna scribe.
And everybody took a turn.
So every single person on that whole
call would take a turn from, we had
directors all the way up to, myself
and the CTO, and we all took turns at
facilitating and scribing, and we would
always start off with an icebreaker.
Right?
And that was the starting point.
Right?
Of just getting to and the most amazing
cultural things would come out of
that because, a pop culture type of
question might get asked and people
in another culture would go, we have
no idea what you're talking about.
Or they would say the same thing
and we would be like, I don't
know how to answer the question.
And we'd laugh and we'd start to learn
about, what we were thinking about.
And it led also into, it was a nice way
to grease into, okay, now we're gonna
talk about the real hard things that
we're doing of people, processes, tools,
and it started to really build trust.
When people feel like you can connect on
a level that you're talking about your
kids, you're talking about what you did
this weekend, now you don't have to open
up what they call the Johari window so
big that you were like pouring your soul
out, but certainly sharing a few things
about yourself that people don't know
about you, so that you become more human.
And when you become more human, it
is a lot easier to talk about the
hard stuff we have to get done.
And it's easier also to get people
motivated that, yeah, we got some
hard work to do, but you are gonna
feel really good when we get it done
and we're all gonna do it together
and we're gonna be in it together.
So I think it's that combination of
bringing people together, modeling that
behavior, and encouraging people to open
up and talk about what's on their minds.
There were many times that we'd be, we'd
be in our 9-Box Zoom call, et cetera,
and especially through COVID, my gosh,
16-Box Zoom call and really going out of
our way to be, "hold on, Trisha, I think
you had you, I can see it on your face.
What are you thinking?
Tell us what you're thinking.
Like I wanna hear your voice and
encouraging people to speak up." And
you may not always agree with what they
say, but you wanna get that dialogue
out there and you wanna get people
challenging and talking to each other.
And for the people that don't talk
on those calls, there's a lot of
coaching going on behind the scenes.
Yeah.
Hey, you need to speak up.
Like, when you're in a leadership
role, your voice is critical
that it's at the table.
Yeah.
You gotta participate.
Trisha Price: Gotta participate.
And one of the things I really
try to encourage in those types of
conversations too is critiquing your
idea or critiquing the strategy for
your product is not critiquing you.
Jodi McDermott: And, that's hard, right?
Because it becomes your baby.
Trisha Price: I know.
And it's also, there's an
art to doing that, right?
There's an art to making
sure you aren't critique.
You have to look at yourself in the
mirror too and say, did I critique
them or did I critique the product?
And then the listener has to feel.
Well, am I treating it like it's
my baby or am I treating it like
I need to do the right thing to
deliver the business outcome?
And I feel like those conversations
are so critical to get right for
culture, and you can't just let
someone's bad idea go because.
You don't wanna be mean.
But at the same time, you don't
need to annihilate people.
Right.
And that's just so hard because sometimes
I've heard, especially earlier in my
career, I've heard people say things
like, don't criticize in public.
Right?
Only praise in public.
But when you're in product and you're
in a group session where you're
trying to get product strategy and
trying to get the right decisions.
You can't not criticize the idea, you
can't not criticize the product, but
you don't have to criticize the people.
And that's just, I don't know, it's always
been a hard thing for me to get right.
Jodi McDermott: You know what?
I always encourage people
to do ask questions.
I've been in scenarios.
I remember sitting in a big, it was our
executive leadership team and our senior
leadership team there, a couple other more
junior folks that had joined the meeting.
And, at the time, the CEO had said
something that somebody told me
later, like, that was incorrect.
He, didn't have all the information.
I'm like.
Ask a question.
Trisha Price: Yeah.
Jodi McDermott: Just ask a question.
He would've wanted you to
ask that question, right?
Yeah.
Or, when people ping me what they just
said was wrong, ask a question and you
can say it in a way that's illuminating.
Illuminating, and not.
Like you don't wanna, you wanna be
careful not to put the person on the
back foot if they didn't realize that
they didn't have all the information.
Trisha Price: Right.
Jodi McDermott: Oh, well, hey
Trisha, did you know that we just
got more feedback from a customer?
Has that gotten to you yet
about that feature and why it's
not meeting the business need?
Oh no, I haven't gotten that.
Can somebody send that over my way?
I'd love to see it.
Right?
So I try to encourage people, ask
questions, and that a lot of times,
even when you are coaching people
on how to criticize their own
product by asking them questions.
They're asking themselves the questions
and they've gotta get to that moment
of honesty and of what's actually
happening and data's a beautiful thing.
Trisha Price: I love that.
That's a beautiful thing that, well, I
think asking questions can be so powerful.
Other than that.
What are other tips or tricks or
pieces of advice that you give to
your product managers who are aspiring
to be product leaders or product
leaders that are aspiring to be a CPO?
Like, how are you helping them?
What advice are you giving this
next generation of leaders?
Jodi McDermott: Be curious.
That's always, I mean, with everything
that's changing right now with, I
mean, you and I both lived through
the SaaS and mobile eras if you
will, it's the AI era now, right?
And so you be open and be curious and
be studying and be trying new things.
To anyone who wants to be A CPO,
learn the financials of the business.
Trisha Price: I love that.
Jodi McDermott: Really understand what
are the levers that are gonna drive
enterprise value in the business.
It's gonna be top-line growth,
bookings growth, and annual
recurring revenue in a SaaS business.
It's gonna be that gross retention rate
of keeping those customers renewing
and and staying on the product, right?
And it's gonna be at the same time having
a really clean shop of operations, and
especially also on the technical side
that you're not building up a whole
bunch of technical debt, but like learn
your product craft as you're going.
But do not shy away at all of what your
investors, whether you are a privately
held company, founder-led, or public
company, how do you make decisions
that impact the value of the company?
At the end of the day, your job
is to build enterprise value
as a CPO, and there's a lot of
different ways and levers to do it.
That starts with a product
manager learning their product.
Right.
My favorite question to ask product
managers, especially in group settings,
is how many of you know the bookings
number for your product this year?
Trisha Price: Yeah.
Jodi McDermott: Not all of them do.
Right?
Yeah.
And they, if, if they're gonna run a
mini business, they gotta know like,
what is the sales team trying to achieve?
What is the average sale value of
my, of my product, and how often
are we winning and or losing?
For every at bat, are we hitting it?
Are we, not hitting it?
And what do I need to do as a product
manager to optimize this product that's
going out the door so that customers
not only buy it, but they renew it.
So I think the, the financial acumen
is a huge piece that I just can't
emphasize enough, is probably one
of the areas that I see is a, a
growth area for so many, product
managers and even aspiring executives.
So there's the technology side,
there's the creativity side
of building great products.
But if you really wanna cascade up
into the next level of your career,
you, you've gotta make sure that
financial basis is there as well.
Trisha Price: I totally agree Jodi, and I
said this so many times, like to me that's
the biggest difference when, especially
when you're jumping from like Director to
VP or VP up, you gotta know this business.
You've gotta understand the business
metrics where, where they could
be optimized, where little tweaks
in your product strategy can, can
help jump forward ARR or margin,
wherever you are in the cycle.
And I think understanding the business
metrics is so critically important.
Jodi McDermott: And it
doesn't discount, right?
You still need to know what's happening
with the competition Of course.
And what are they releasing and how
are they positioning their product?
It is multidimensional.
I'm just saying there's one side of it of
focusing on like, do you, the telemetry
around your product is not just how
many people clicked on something or used
it today, monthly, daily active users.
Yep.
It goes so much deeper than that.
And yes, as a product manager, we
could take that and slice it right
down into the narrowness of a product
manager, get closer and closer and
closer to your user and customer.
I can't emphasize that enough, right?
There's a lot of product managers
and CPOs that don't spend enough
time with customers out in the field.
How are they using it?
What does my product
look like in the wild?
And really understanding that, so that,
that's probably the more practical side
of it that you, that you'd add to it.
Trisha Price: Even like,
what's your strategy, right?
When I think about executives talking
to other customer, like to the
customer executive, then it's like
not just how are you using my product?
What do you like about it?
Is it delivering value for you?
But where are you taking your
business over the next three years?
Jodi McDermott: How can
we be a partner for you?
Trisha Price: Yeah, that means it's a
game changer for how you think about your
product strategy and investments when
you know your most strategic customers
and what their three year and five year
plan are, so that you can really start
to align not just the here and now and
what they like about your product, but
you know where you're going together
over the next three to five years.
Jodi McDermott: Yeah.
The dynamics change a lot.
I think, back in the days of just,
writing stories in Jira and building
a product backlog, et cetera.
As your career progresses, there's a lot
of other dimensions that have to come
into it and skill sets to really round
out being a fulsome product leader.
Trisha Price: So as you're, engaging
with different product companies
and different product leaders today,
how are you thinking about AI?
Right.
There's, for all of us building product,
it's incorporating AI, whether it's
agentic experiences, conversational
interfaces, AI summaries into our
product or using, you had mentioned
this a little bit earlier, AI tools
to give us more efficiency, how
are you advising the people you're
working with today in terms of AI?
Jodi McDermott: Well, I think you
need to look at AI and how it's gonna
disrupt every aspect of business.
And that's a very broad statement
to start off with, right?
Yeah.
But I'm sure at Pendo you're looking
at, how do we not only optimize our
operations, customer success, support
sales, what tool sets can we use
to, build better pipeline, right?
Or increase our win rate?
And those are all internal operations.
But it's also how do you incorporate
that into your product so that your end
user is getting that same, same leverage.
So I think there, there's an internal
view to it of what are all the tool
sets that could apply to how, where
I spend time in my job and what I do.
Right?
So you're a product manager,
writing user stories or PRDs, are
you doing competitive intelligence?
The tools can save you a ton of time.
Now they're not, they're not always
a replacement for a human, but they
certainly can give you a lot of leverage.
So that you can, and instead
of doing 500 Google searches,
you can have a starting point.
That's a lot has a lot
more thickness to it.
So I, I think any, any product person
out there should just be looking
at every single aspect of how they
spend their day and all the tasks
that they do, and what are ways that
they can be applying AI to go faster.
I think it's also important of, where is
your company adopting it and what are the
privacy rules ,and what's the governance
that you've put into place to make sure
that you don't have IP going out the
door, especially with your product folks
and the searches they might be doing.
So I think that's important for
a leader to be thinking about
putting it into the product.
You're thinking about it just on
the other side of that table, right?
And I think for product people,
it's probably kind of easier
to think about it that way.
You just have to go to the other side
of the table and just look back and
say, okay, if I was using this just
as if I was using any of these other
products I use in my day-to-day, what
would I, where would I inject AI in?
What would I do?
Where does it make sense and
where does it not make sense?
Trisha Price: Yeah.
Jodi McDermott: It's a powerful tool.
Trisha Price: It is so powerful.
And you're right.
I mean, we at Pendo are rethinking
every one of our processes
and where can we use ai?
And we've had.
Some huge wins and we've had
some places where we've learned
maybe it didn't work as well.
And that's on the internal and
the external side of things.
And I think right now for all of us,
we've gotta keep experimenting and
keep trying and learn new things and
figure out what works and doesn't work.
But I do think everything is sort
of on the brink of change right now.
Jodi McDermott: You know what I
think is really interesting though
in this timeframe is that I think.
I think our kids are in similar
age ranges, if I remember.
Trisha Price: Yes.
Jodi McDermott: But our
kids grew up with no AI.
No AI.
No AI.
It's cheating.
It's cheating.
It's cheating.
And it was hammered into their heads.
Yeah.
And so now, of course I'm trying to get my
kids to think about AI and they're like.
Stop.
They're like, no, it's bad.
It's like, no, it's not bad.
Right?
Trisha Price: And it's not bad.
Jodi McDermott: It's not bad.
And I think there's a lot of employers
out there who have to almost give
permission to that generation where AI was
introduced and they were quick adopters
of taking a look at it and using it.
And then they were quickly,
harnessed, wait, hold on.
You can't do your test and
homework on that, right?
And so I see schools starting to embrace
it a lot more and try to work it into
the curriculum and get that permission
going with the younger generation.
I say younger generation, my
gosh, like, multiple, who knows
how that is even defined, but.
I'm part of the younger
generation, aren't we?
Both?
Trisha Price: Of course.
We're part of it.
Jodi McDermott: We're still young.
We're still young, but I think there
that there is a group of folks out there
who, weren't given that permission.
And in that the world is changing so
quickly that I think it's upon leadership
team members to also really encourage
their team to like, use it, try it.
I want you using it.
This is how it's gonna help you.
It's gonna, it's not gonna replace you.
It's gonna augment you
to be, supercharged.
To do so much more work in a value.
Your brain becomes the value
add on top of what AI does.
Trisha Price: So true.
My kids, Jodi, make
fun of me all the time.
I'll be doing something.
They're like, did you just AI that?
Whether it's like planning a trip
or getting ready for a list of
questions at a doctor's appointment.
They're like, did you just did
a, did you just ChatGPT that mom?
And I'm like, why is that?
Jodi McDermott: Yes, I did.
Trisha Price: Guys, you
should be congratulating me.
And then this weekend we had a
fascinating conversation about.
AI being people and certain like are
people going to have philosophical
issues with it, and are they
gonna have biases against AI?
And do we need to rethink just
like many years ago, how we had
biases against certain groups of
people and rethink that with AI.
And it was like a crazy,
fascinating discussion in our house
with as a family this weekend.
It was pretty fun.
I know.
Yeah.
Wild.
It's wild.
Jodi McDermott: It's an intellectually
stimulating conversation to have.
Trisha Price: It is.
It's, but it is definitely
going to change our world.
Well, Jodi, as we close out today, I do
wanna come back to Hard Calls and just
ask you one more question as we finish up.
You said this in the beginning, and
I totally agree, and it's actually
why I created this podcast, is
what makes product hard is that
everyone has an opinion, right?
Sales thinks they know
what's best for the product.
Yeah, support team, like if
you just fix this one thing,
it would make my life better.
Customers have opinions for products.
They want you to build our board, turn
everything upside down and go AI first.
But at the end of the day, we're
the ones accountable and we're the
ones who have to make that call.
So how do you think about
data versus gut instincts?
And like what you really lean
on in terms of what's critical
to get the hard calls, right?
Jodi McDermott: It's gotta be both, right?
I think that, you have to have telemetry
around the decisions that you're making.
As a product leader.
Now that's sometimes really hard.
You might walk into a
business and there's no data.
I've had that where there's limited
amount of data, and so you're going
more off gut instinct than you're going
off of data-driven, but you might pull
that information from a cross-functional
group of people to understand, well,
tell me what's going on in the business.
And you do have to make a discerning
call based off of what is a little
bit more I'd say EQ versus IQ
of, of what might be coming in.
But it's also your job to get that
telemetry going so that you can at
least reduce the margins in some of
those calls, 'cause sometimes you
have to make a call and you, you don't
have all the data, you just have to
pick a point and start moving forward.
And I, I think the, the one thing
to be careful of is, somebody shared
the concept with me of a one-way
door or a two-way door, right?
Yep.
So is it a door that you can walk
back through or is it a one-way
door that you can never turn
around and undo what you've done?
Yeah.
And so I think that's another dimension
you can layer on top of that is as you
start to make hard calls and decisions.
Yep.
Yet there are often ones that
you have to make a really hard
call and it's a one way door.
And the question is, is how high are
the stakes when you make that decision?
Trisha Price: So true.
And the higher the stakes,
the more data you want.
Right?
Jodi McDermott: But you can't
have analysis paralysis either.
Yeah, right?
And so I think a, a good product
leader has, has that gut instinct
to, sleep on it, see how you really
feel about it, and you sometimes.
You just have to make the hard
call without all of the information
because you know the business
has to keep moving forward.
Yeah.
Jodi, at Pendo we say no
Trisha Price: decision
is still a decision.
So you made a decision.
You just made no decision.
That might be the worst call, you know?
Jodi McDermott: That's true.
That's very true.
Trisha Price: Yeah.
Well, Jodi, thank you so much for
being on Hard Calls for this episode.
I know our listeners have learned
so much from this conversation.
I have too.
Always a joy to spend some time with you.
Jodi McDermott: Likewise.
Trisha Price: Thank you so much.
Jodi McDermott: Thank you.
Trisha Price: Thank you for listening
to Hard Calls, the product podcast,
where we share best practices and
all the things you need to succeed.
If you enjoyed the show today, share
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