Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Testing your ideas against reality can be challenging. Not everything will go as planned. It’s about keeping an open mind, having a clear hypothesis and running multiple tests to see if you have enough directional evidence to keep going.
This is the How I Tested That Podcast, where David J Bland connects with entrepreneurs and innovators who had the courage to test their ideas with real people, in the market, with sometimes surprising results.
Join us as we explore the ups and downs of experimentation… together.
David J Bland (0:1.612)
Welcome to the podcast and
Ann Carden (0:3.735)
Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
David J Bland (0:6.690)
I'm so excited to have you on. You have such a vast experience in all these different businesses and being able to exit these businesses. And I think you're still probably running a couple of businesses. You're always up to something. And some of my audience are, you know, their coaches, consultants, their authors, maybe they've written their first book, maybe their speakers. And all of them are kind of struggling with how I make this repeatable. They're sort of the center of everything as a big
Ann Carden (0:18.775)
Mm-hmm, I am.
David J Bland (0:36.974)
Eye the Storm sort of analogy there. And I would love for you to share just a little bit about your background. And I would love to dive into how you've sort of tested your way through some of the things you've worked on over the years and things that have kind of went well and didn't go so well. But first, just some background of you to our listeners would be amazing.
Ann Carden (0:56.961)
Thank you so much. So yes, as you said, I have done multiple businesses. I'm in my sixth and seventh, and I've sold the five previous businesses. And oh gosh, what a journey. But I have also worked with hundreds and hundreds of entrepreneurs, coaches, consultants, professionals, helping them really grow in scale. And so I've worked actually in over, last I counted, over 80 different industries.
So I don't just have my own experience. I also have the experience of clients which Yeah, so it's been a road. I'm getting ready to They have my fourth book published and I have launched a marketing and media agency last year and a magazine So I have a lot going on a lot of things going on
David J Bland (1:47.628)
You do, you do. It's very impressive. I was thinking through maybe earlier in your career where you're starting these businesses and you had all these doubts. Maybe, could you walk us through maybe just one or two anecdotal stories of here's some big assumption I had and I wasn't sure if it was true or not. And I did some things and found my path through any insights you can share with our listeners would just be amazing.
Ann Carden (2:14.539)
Yeah, you one of the interesting things when we talk about testing, one of the interesting things is today we can test with virtually no expense if we wanted to. And back in the day, I can remember my very first business. It was a global doll business. And I would have to run expensive ads in magazines to be able to expand. And the problem with that is I would have to run
ads three months, three magazines out before I could even find out if that ad was going to pull or if that particular doll was going to be a hot seller. And so it was so expensive way back when to do that. But I've always done that. So as things would grow and got into my fitness business, which turned into a large health club and two weight loss centers and another two health clubs and a weight loss centers.
I would test things by just telling people, here's what I think I'm going to do. And I would put an offer together and I would see if there was interest. And from that, it was so simple, but that's where my first million dollar offer came from 27, 28 years ago from something I put together. And when people jump at things right away and they pay you, it's a pretty good indication you've got something.
One thing I tell people to do is don't ever test unless people have skin in the game. Or don't ever take people's word for it that they'll buy into that or that they'll love it or it's a great idea. Until people put their money down, you don't really have a test.
David J Bland (4:4.408)
We talk a lot about evidence in the book, Testing Business Ideas. And I really tried to have a taxonomy there where we talked about light evidence versus strong evidence. And I think what you're saying is what I'm hearing is some of this anecdotal evidence or what people say versus what they do, you do need to close that gap. We kind of call that the say do gap. And it feels as if you would have these moments maybe where
people would act excited about something, but potentially didn't follow through on it. And so walk us through, how do you approach that or how do you try to close that gap or what are the things that have worked for you in the past?
Ann Carden (4:45.995)
Yes, I mean, for me, you have to go back and kind of do some research. So if someone says they're interested in something, but they don't take the step to do it, I'm very inquisitive. And so I want to find out why. I want to find out what changed. Why did you not take that step? Or why did you not invest in that?
But I just learned a long time ago, people will say a lot of things, but until they actually invest, you don't really know that you can believe what they say. Just because it sounds like a good idea. So one of the things that I will do, even now I do it, if I put up a workshop, for example, on LinkedIn, that I'm going to run a workshop, and on LinkedIn, this is a great way that I test today, a topic.
of is there interest in this? So we'll invite at that you get to invite 1000 people a week to this workshop or this event and we will reach out to people if they say that they want to come but they never took the next step to go register like to actually register and book into the event. So we go back to them and find out is what what happened? Is there a topic? Is this a topic you're not interested in?
Did you make a mistake when you said you wanted to come? Like, what is that? But we can also test the titles, the headlines, the copy, all of those things for the marketing by doing something like that that doesn't really cost any money. But we will reach out to them and find out exactly what was the reason they didn't. And I've always done that. I think all through all of my businesses, we've always done that.
David J Bland (6:37.036)
I like that we often have some tricks we pull from. One is for people that do show up, you ask them what almost prevented you from signing up or paying. And sometimes you get these little friction points, little insights that maybe you would not expect of, oh, well, the image you had was really blurry. And I thought this might be a low quality event or whatever it is. You learn all these interesting things, but you can talk to people after.
Ann Carden (7:1.547)
Mm-hmm.
David J Bland (7:5.966)
pay after they sign up and ask them what almost prevented them. So it sounds as if obviously over the years and decades, running ads three months in advance is quite challenging. That's a very slow feedback loop. It's expensive.
Ann Carden (7:6.571)
Mm-hmm.
Ann Carden (7:21.208)
Oh my gosh, but those were the days that that was that was the way it was. Now it's so amazing what we have available to us.
David J Bland (7:29.654)
Yeah, I think back to the old A-B direct mailers, right? And then this stuff still goes out where people would A-B test through the mail, you know, the actual physical mail. And now I think we have all these tools and everything.
David J Bland (10:12.930)
You have such a range of business and experience over the years. I imagine that everything has gone smoothly. And so what's an example of something that maybe didn't go well and that actually changed your mindset or how you approach something that you're working on today.
Ann Carden (10:28.887)
That's such a great question. So when I first came into the coaching space, I worked with some mentors and a company. actually got into a coaching organization for business coaches. And a lot of the strategies and things that I was taught were not bringing me the clients I wanted. And even the way I was taught to sort of build that business didn't align.
with where my expertise was and what I really felt like I could help my clients do. I came to a place in my coaching business where I, number one, I kept hitting the revenue ceiling and I thought, what is wrong here? I know how to build businesses. The other piece of that though is I wasn't loving my business. I was not loving what I was doing, the people I was working with. They were great people. They were not great clients.
And I was just finding a lot of frustration, but it was the very thing. My whole idea was I'm either going to figure this out or I'm getting out. That really was where I was at. And I took a step back and I thought, okay, Anne, number one, what are you not doing that you know to do in business that's worked really well for you before? And second, don't...
Are you like going down the path that a lot of other people are teaching you here? Is that really what you know to be a winning formula? And that's really where my expert in you, my whole method and business model came from is I went back to what I already knew, which was bringing in premium high end clients, really being able to get them the results and working with them long enough to get the results.
not this churn and burn kind of method that I was sort of taught in the coaching space and working in areas where I really knew what I was doing and really felt confident in what I was doing. So that's where my whole method came from, but it did not start out. I invested a lot of money, burned up a lot of money. I don't think it's ever a waste. I learned from every single thing I did, but so many things that did not go the way I wanted them to go.
Ann Carden (12:39.952)
And I just had to figure that piece out for myself.
David J Bland (12:43.694)
It's so difficult, right? You get, you pay for advice and then you get all this different conflicting advice and, or you try to put that advice into action and it doesn't work out the way you want it to. I was thinking through, you know, this is probably very, very applicable to a lot of our listeners, especially our coaches who listen to this podcast. So you're trying to go after high end clients. And I think the tendency we have is, let's develop the
perfect program or proposal and make it super polished and infinitely refine it. So we're very proud of it and we're not embarrassed of it anymore. And then we're going to go try to pitch this to people. What do you think, how do you fight that urge? How do you kind of keep things small and try to find a way to get traction or some skin in the game, like you said earlier?
Ann Carden (13:17.495)
Hmm.
Ann Carden (13:34.839)
I think it's a combination. There is a combination of two things. First, you do have to really, especially like if you're a consultant or a coach or you're putting together professional services, it really does have to be something you feel confident that you can deliver on. But then the marketing piece of it is what gets your foot in the door, right? It's the piece that gets people to say, let's book a call, let's talk about this. And so it's really important.
that you understand it's both of those things. So you can, you still want to work in the area that you know you're brilliant, you have expertise, you have experience, but the marketing side has to still get their attention. And this is where I think a lot of times there's a disconnect. One of the things I see is people say, if you want to know what to sell, go out and interview the market, right? But if it's not in your wheelhouse,
That's a bad idea. That's a really bad idea. What I recommend is take where you are so exceptional and package that and then figure out the problem that is going on in the market that you're solving and who you're solving that for. So what you can do doesn't change, but the way you market that or get people's attention, you know.
might be something that you hadn't thought of or that you didn't plan on doing. Does that make sense, David, what I'm saying?
David J Bland (15:4.832)
It does. think about and this is very applicable to me as well. But we think about we threw this term around pivot a lot. You we are going to pivot and all this. But in reality, you know, the two major types I see over and over again are you either pivot on your customer, which is look, I'm trying to solve this pain point. This customer doesn't have this pain point, but this other customer has this pain point. So let me pivot and sort of stay in my expertise, but go after a different segment. Or I'm so passionate about this segment.
Ann Carden (15:11.991)
Mm-hmm.
Ann Carden (15:25.131)
Mm-hmm.
David J Bland (15:33.432)
that they have this other problem that I think I could solve and I pivot on the problem. And I think what I'm hearing you say is potentially maybe not pivot on the problem, especially if it's not in your wheelhouse, but try to go after customers that have a problem that you feel confident in solving. And it's gonna make you feel probably a little bit uncomfortable talking to customers that maybe you didn't expect to have the problem, but you're sort of leveraging your expertise.
Ann Carden (16:2.113)
Yes, I mean, at the end of the day, you'll be able to sell so much easier what you're great at doing and what you're really where your skill set is, your knowledge, your experience, your expertise, it is going to be a much easier sell. So it's easier to find the market that has a need for that. often, here's an example of this. So one of the things I help because I help professional entrepreneurs and coaches do this big consultants be able to get those premium clients.
I look at the market they're maybe going after. And if they're going after a market that is broke, good luck. You're not going to get sales to the degree that you want sales. So sometimes it's leveling them up in the market they are already working with, but sometimes it is shifting that market. A good example of this is a mindset coach, for example. I had a mindset coach I worked with. She was charging.
$1,500 for a 90 day program. And I moved her into a market where she was starting to get $50,000 clients. That's a big, big difference, right? But because she was going after kind of stay at home moms and people that really didn't have the money or even the desire to really invest very big, we had to move her into the B2B, like into the business space so she could start working with
business people that had a real need for what she was doing because she was amazing. I mean her skill set was not the question, but the market that she was going after was keeping her really stuck in her revenue and even in the clients that she was working with it kind of reminded me of my journey and I remember the first time she got that big client and started working with that big client and she said I had no idea how much easier they would be to work with. So that was an example but
moving her into a space where they could really value her expertise and she could get paid really well for her expertise is such an important piece. so knowing really how to do that is something that you have to really think about when you're trying to go after those bigger clients.
David J Bland (18:20.320)
Yeah, we tried to frame this in sort of terms of feasibility, viability, desirability. So feasibility is a lot of what you can do. And like you, I've met a bunch of people who are very, very good at what they do. They're some of the best in the world at what they do. They're very skilled. They've honed their craft over decades. But then you shift to desirability. Do they want it? Is it
Is the job to be done there? Do they have a pain or gain that you're trying to solve for? And then viability is willingness to pay. And can I make a profit off this? And I do think that's where a lot of people get stuck is those things are very tightly coupled sometimes. And we're trying to unpack those, but you're going after a low end market and you're just doing many, many, of those deals. And you feel like you're never going to get ahead. Like you said, you're hitting a plateau, you know? And then the idea to step back and say, okay,
maybe this isn't viable the way I'm doing it now, but this isn't a feasibility problem. This isn't what I can do kind of problem. This is a, have to find out how to get to this different market. And it sounds like that's what you help people sort of navigate when they feel stuck.
Ann Carden (19:29.589)
Yeah, I do. I help them really level everything up. So they're getting paid top dollar. They're getting the best clients for their expertise and so and then growing and scaling their business. So those are all pieces that I work with work with my clients on.
David J Bland (19:45.998)
So what kind of questions, maybe just even one question, you would have somebody ask themselves. They're just stuck and they feel as if, wow, I'm just treading water here and there's no way forward. And even if it's something they're passionate about, like you said, they're not enjoying it as much anymore. What is the thought process or how do you get them to start building that awareness that this is where they are?
Ann Carden (19:59.873)
Mm-hmm.
Ann Carden (20:10.708)
First, really determine where you're stuck. So are you stuck in, you know, is is your offer not structured? I call it your million dollar offer. Is it not structured in a way that people, it's desirable to people? Are you stuck in the marketing aspect? Maybe you don't know what to do to generate leads. Are you stuck? Are you getting conversations with leads? But when you go to close them, you're not closing. It's really important to know where you're stuck.
and then look for the person that can help you fix it because that will always be your fastest path. And a lot of people think they have to figure things out on themselves, you know, themselves, and it is just the slow road. Find someone who's an expert in that. And it's one of the reasons why I work with my clients in all aspects because everything from offers to scaling, building their team, all of those things, because
I don't want them to have to go out and work with three or four different people to build their business, if that makes sense. So find out, because so many people have to do that, all these short little programs and so-called experts, they're kind of like a one trick pony. And so they go after, they go and invest in that person, but then they're still missing this. So like the marketing and sales, they're not complimenting each other.
This person's great at marketing, but they're not great at helping you close sales. So now you have to go hire a sales coach. So it's important. I believe working with someone who can help you with all of those things is a much better path. But at the end of the day, you still have to kind of really determine where are my stuff? Like what's happening here? And then what's the book? Who, not how?
Who can help me with this?
David J Bland (22:9.326)
That's great advice. I think a lot of us get stuck, myself included, and we kind of just put our heads down and think, well, we're going to figure this out on our own. And that's not always the best way forward. You've written so many different books. And we had a couple authors, we had Bruce and Melissa on a few months ago to talk about their new book, Aligned, and how they tested their book. What are some things that, and I ask this because you've
Ann Carden (22:17.751)
you
David J Bland (22:38.178)
done so many things over the years and you kind of have this curiosity and problem solving and this sort of entrepreneurial spirit about you. What are some things that maybe you've learned from the books or ways you've tested the books and the messaging? Do you use some of the same techniques you've used in other businesses or have you tried other things that work for the books? Any insights there? Because I feel like everyone wants to write a book but they don't really know how hard it is and they don't know how to really test their way through a book.
Ann Carden (23:7.381)
Yes, so really determine what you want your book to do for you. When I wrote my book, so I'm getting ready to publish my fourth one, my fourth book, and it is really around what I'm doing now and the direction that I'm going with my business. So I believe in expert books. This is where a lot of people make mistakes. They want to write a book, but they don't write a book around what they're trying to really do out, like to be out there building.
And so there's this disconnect between their book and how they're trying to build their business or grow their business. I recommend that if you are in business and you're trying to grow your business, you want an expert book, a book that leads people basically through your process and ultimately influences them to want to talk to you or book a call or follow you or whatever that is. And a lot of people don't think like that. They think, oh, I have this story. I have this journey.
That can still be sprinkled into your book, but most people don't care about that. They'll find it interesting and it's great that it's sprinkled in, but most people, unless you're just someone that loves to read novels and things like that for entertainment, especially in business, people are looking for books to really get value from them and hopefully get the insights and nuances and things that they did not know before.
So your book should really lead them through your process. So there's this congruency in your brand and in what you do and in your book, all of your marketing materials. So all of my books really came from knowing I want my book to do this for me. I want my book so I can speak on more stages around business. And every time I shifted markets or shifted my business, I wrote a different book.
David J Bland (25:0.790)
I like that approach.
Ann Carden (25:0.819)
which is why I'm on my fourth. Yes. Yes.
David J Bland (25:6.070)
Yeah, you know, when I was we were writing our book, we were trying to think about what's the job to be done for the reader, you know, it's like, well, I'm gonna walk you through this process. But I always try to keep the reader top of mind of what are they trying to do? Or how's this book going to help them do a specific thing? And I realize not a lot of business books do that. I think it's still it's almost taking your product thinking business thinking and applying it to a book, you know.
Ann Carden (25:20.031)
Mm-hmm.
Ann Carden (25:31.923)
It is. That's really what it is, yes.
David J Bland (25:35.758)
And so we tested titles and all kinds of different things. having a fourth book, I'm still trying to get really excited about a second book. So being on a fourth is a little overwhelming for me to think about.
Ann Carden (25:50.423)
Well, we actually write people's, we will actually write your expert book for you. I have a team that we will actually do take that heavy lifting because at the end of the day, people just want to be able to see inside to really to how you can help them and what you do. And so it's, we can do that. You know, we can actually write that book and help you get it done because it is a daunting process. Yes. Yeah.
David J Bland (26:16.192)
It is it is so interesting. So you offer a service where you can I guess interview folks or get their knowledge out of their head in some way that you can format it in a book medium. OK.
Ann Carden (26:27.682)
Yes, that's exactly what we do.
David J Bland (26:31.606)
Interesting, interesting. you, sounds as if the way you try to approach things is you try to make these really deliberate shifts in your career. If you're making a shift, then you do want to have a book to accompany that shift, which I think is very smart to do. And you're trying to stay sort of in your lane though with what you're really good at. So
How do you balance that? It seems like you've been in so many different industries. Is there a commonality through those that you see like a thread that even though you're working all these different businesses, there are these key principles or beliefs that you're applying through all those?
Ann Carden (27:14.071)
Well, when I think about all of the businesses that I've had, one of the things that my whole business is built around is a premium model, is a premium business model. And so I learned that years ago when I created my first million dollar offer, when I had my first offer that made me over a million dollars, that was like 27 years ago.
And it was a premium offer compared to the other services that I had. And that's when I really learned the power of that. that was one of the things I had to figure out when I took a step back in my coaching and consulting business. And I said, what is wrong here, Ann? You know how to build businesses. And that was sort of the missing piece. I wasn't bringing in top dollar clients. didn't have big offers. Everything I was doing, and even the way I was
taking payments was keeping me very stuck. So there were a lot of facets. So the one thing that I learned that I have applied to my business and I've applied it to almost every business that I've worked with is how can we get you more into the premium side of your business? So you're making more money, you're doing the same thing, but you're making more money doing what you're doing. so that has stayed with me and that's where...
my entire business has been built around that model. So I always say, so I call myself a million dollar strategist and you know, okay, if you can build, add a million dollars to your business with, you know, 20, $50,000 clients, that's gonna be a lot easier than if you're bringing in thousand dollar clients, right? And so that's my whole model and that's what I teach.
David J Bland (29:1.484)
Interesting. So no matter what industry you're in over the years, you're going after that premium sort of angle. And then that kind of led you to where you are today. And it almost sounds as if, you know, if we have listeners on the call who are really struggling and they're stuck and they want to hit like a premium proposal or some sort of deal or some kind of program that that is
Ann Carden (29:7.639)
Mm-hmm.
David J Bland (29:28.780)
What you essentially help them test out is how to kind of package all that and get into that higher sort of price bracket.
Ann Carden (29:34.869)
Yes, the whole thing. But there's more to it than just creating a different offer. You've got the marketing piece that has to level up. You have the sales piece that has to change and level up. it's all of it together that can help you do that. But yes, that's really what I am known for in the market is helping people build high-end businesses. I say work less and make more.
David J Bland (29:59.872)
I like that. I like that approach. So you have your book coming out and what gets you excited? What are some things that excite you but you're also you feel as if it's a little bit uncomfortable with your business or there's some big assumptions that you want to go test? What are some things you're looking forward to over the next six to 12 months?
Ann Carden (30:22.239)
Yeah, that's great. That's a great question. actually have. I've done a lot of, know, I've done some paid advertising and things like that, but I run a lot of virtual events and workshops, but they I've been basically filling those organically and I haven't really done paid ads to fill those. But now I'm, I am kind of redefining my million dollar accelerator and I'm going to do a smaller.
piece of that and so I'm going to be running a paid workshop which I online. So I've done paid workshops offline. I haven't done paid workshops online. So but I've had no trouble filling my workshops but now I want to ramp it up and I have a huge goal in mind for my business. And so now I know I'm going into that piece of the business which I'm a bit nervous about. I'm not going to lie because
We know advertising has become more expensive and I'm not afraid to advertise and things like that. But the goals that I have, this is gonna be a very different way of going after my business. But I won't let that stop me. I'm not afraid to try things and do things, but I think it's gonna probably be a little bit of a pain.
David J Bland (31:46.286)
It is I can relate. My co-author, Alex Hirstvelder and I, well, especially when COVID hit, we all are in-person events became virtual. And luckily, I'd already been doing some virtual work. And so it wasn't complete shift for me. But the idea of we had a plan out. the book launched end of 2019. COVID hit early 2020. Like really the lockdown started hitting early 2020. And so all of my book tour, all of the paid workshops I was going to do in person or the big events, know, master classes.
I'll put on hold. So it was sort of this inflection point where we had to test online. And like you said, skin in the game.
will people pay a price online or a premium price online for something like that? And we ran some tests and we did some different tests from email and different things and call to actions and realized, yes, people would pay. So, but that made me very, very nervous. The idea that people would pay for something virtual where in the past we had done all those, you know, in person and it's really cool venue with all kinds of snacks and everything and a vibe trying to recreate that online.
Ann Carden (32:40.023)
Mm-hmm.
Ann Carden (32:45.751)
That's nice.
David J Bland (32:53.454)
We had lots of assumptions and it wasn't that we couldn't pull it off. It was more of the viability assumptions would people pay and luckily they did, but you don't know until you go, go try and test.
Ann Carden (32:59.421)
Right,
Ann Carden (33:4.181)
Yeah, no, absolutely. you know, one of the hard things about the market today is, number one, it's very saturated in practically every industry, right? So you really, you have to really have that marketing dialed in. So you look different from everybody else doing things that are similar. So you have to really do that. But yeah, you know.
There's so many workshops and things now that people can go to and they can go to them free. So stepping into a paid model and again, getting people into free is not ever a problem, right? Going to a paid model is, yeah, it's going to be a different way of doing things.
David J Bland (33:56.042)
One thing that worked for us is we used to have, obviously music is a big thing of in-person events and we found a virtual musician, Benjamin Moore, who would do music during the breaks but do it virtually over our virtual experience. And I can't tell you how many times people came back and really...
Ann Carden (34:14.647)
Hmm.
David J Bland (34:20.526)
just told us how much they enjoyed that little touch. It wasn't much, it was just a little touch of live music through breaks. And that worked out really well for us. But I wish you the best in trying to test out all these assumptions and going to a virtual. So I just want to thank you so much for hanging out with me and sharing your insights and all your expertise on how you frame these premium models, how that's influenced your businesses over the years and how you're helping people, experts, which we do have on the podcast listening.
Ann Carden (34:22.901)
That's cool. Yeah. Thank you.
David J Bland (34:49.710)
How would people get in touch with you if they heard this and they're like, Ann can help me. Where do they reach out and find you?
Ann Carden (34:56.117)
Yes, so I actually have two websites. I have my marketing and media agency website and that is expertinu.com. But then I also have my personal website, which is more about my coaching services. And that is annelcardon.com. those, but I'm all over social. I have my own podcast. You can search my name or you can search expert in you and take your pick where you want to find me. So.
David J Bland (35:22.302)
Awesome. Thanks so much. So if you're listening, we'll have those on the detail page as well. And I really appreciate you making time out of your schedule to hang out with us and share insights. Thanks so much for joining.
Ann Carden (35:34.945)
Thank you.