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The HeadRush Podcast with Paul Frase takes you inside the reality of Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy (CTE) through the lens of football. With firsthand experience in one of the most punishing sports, Paul shares stories, the lasting effects of head trauma, and the fight for awareness and support.
Welcome to the Head Rush podcast. My name is Paul Frase, and I played eleven years in the NFL. And at the Head Rush podcast, we talk about everything related to brain trauma and brain health and wellness. We focus on traumatic brain injuries sustained through repeated head impact, RHI, and repeated blast exposure, RBE, for our men and women who serve in the armed forces. We discuss chronic traumatic encephalopathy, CTE, and we cover how brain injuries can and will cause mental health issues such as depression, addiction, lack of executive function, memory loss, even suicide ideation, as well as degenerative neurological issues. Our mantra is how to cope and find hope, and we focus our energy on finding therapies and sharing hope through education and by raising awareness. And please like, subscribe, and share if you will. It will help us reach our goal of helping people suffering with traumatic brain injury. We've got a treat for you today. We have a good friend from across the pond, Roy Heaney. And Roy Heaney played elite football from the age of eleven years old for his home city of Liverpool and his county, Merseyside, until signing forms for the LFC in nineteen seventy-five. Played two sports professionally, soccer, the real football, and rugby.
Roy played for Liverpool Football Club in nineteen seventy-five, nineteen seventy-six at the age of fifteen, and the Bolton Wa- uh, Wanderers Football Club from nineteen seventy-six to nineteen eighty-one.
His soccer football career spanned many years, uh, when a broken leg actually threatened to end his professional career. But he was such a good athlete, his skills actually translated well into professional rugby. Roy, why is that? Is that because Roy- rugby players are a little bit slower and a little bit less agile, or just they run you over?
What a question to ask me. I mean, I would... I will be on the hit list if I agreed that that was my... You're gonna get me into a lot of trouble there.
That's good. Okay, well, we'll, we'll finish, we'll finish your introduction. You, you were an elite player for one of the leading and most successful clubs in rugby league history, and we are going to let you tell us about, uh, your career a bit. You are an outstanding, uh, spokesperson and advocate re- for repeated head impact, CTE and TES. Roy, it, it's an honor to have you, and it's great to see you again. I knew someday we were gonna meet fa- face-to-face and, uh,
I don't know, do a high five, give a bear hug, whatever athletes do. It's good, good to have you here.
Thank you so much for inviting me on, Paul. Um, it's a pleasure and an honor, um, to speak to you again. You know, there's a lot, a lot happened over the last twelve months or so in regard to, um, everything that we have been talking about with CTE and, and, uh, head injuries, concussions, sub-concussions. So much has happened, certainly in my country over the last year or so. Um, so many people are obviously trying to get as much information out there, uh, not just to parents, but to coaches and teachers and, and, uh, and players and ex-players. So there's a big push over in the UK at the moment in regard to education, and I think the last year we've made good strides. Uh, still a long, long way to go. Uh, but yeah, um,
we- we've made some progress. Still a wee bit behind yourselves in the USA, though.
Well, I wanna, uh, dive deep into, uh, a lot of the education. You mentioned a lot of things have happened, I'm sure, in the litigation that's ongoing for, for rugby, for the players against the owners, I suppose. And tell us about that, how that litigation is going, and give us a, a highlight of some of those changes at, at this point.
Um, oh, let's be... And I've gotta be obviously really careful what I say at the moment, um, because we're in a quite of a sensitive stage. Forgive me if I can't say too much, but what I can say is that-
That's fine. That's fine.
Yeah, what, what I can say is that it, it's been a mirror image of, of how things went, um, with you guys, with the NFL. I think the authorities for the last five to six years have basically tried to stall progress of the case at every, uh, avenue. The court case, they've been
stalling and asking for this information, asking for that information, and it's just been a, a progress of, um,
of, of just trying to slow things down as much as they possibly can. Because, uh, as you know, these cases can cost into the billions of dollars. Um, and although obviously we are funded, we have investors,
you know, we- we're, we're well into the millions now of pounds worth, um,
of costs, and that, and that's continuing to rise. You know, every corner, every, every hearing, the authorities have obviously tried to,
um, slow down the process as much as they can in a hope that
we'll run out of funding basically, and, and the case will, will, um, will be thrown out of court. And there was a, there was a hearing recently where, um, there was, was an issue with getting information out there for ourselves that I think we were a bit... our, our, our representatives were a bit late putting it out there, and it very nearly cost.
Several hundred of the lads, um, were near-- the cases were nearly dismissed. But luckily, that's not been the case, and, um, we're still in there fighting.
This is a case that's gonna go on, you know. We're-- as I say, we're five, six years into it. Um, I
personally don't... You know, I have no expectations of when it's gonna end. I think we've just got to hang on in there, tell the truth, um, keep presenting the facts. Hopefully, the science continues to improve, which, which it, it has dramatically over the last couple of years. And we've seen, um,
a lot of
ex-players who have passed with neurological disease, uh, high-profile players,
um, and it's been discovered that, sadly, quite a few of those lads that, that have passed actually had late-onset CTE. They were in the later stages of CTE. So the more evidence we have, sadly, you know, it's tinged with a lot of sadness 'cause
a lot of families are obviously missing their loved ones. But, um, it has come to the fore now that neurological disease certainly
associated with sub and full concussions in, in athletic sports, in contact sports, usually causes, um,
the onset of CTE. So much so, I mean, the, the government, the British governments have now instructed, um, have now been instructed by the coroner that they must recognize that this is for football and rugby, that there is an inherent possibility
that heading a ball or, you know, getting these hits to the head
could, uh, cause death through neurological diso- disease or CTE.
Oh. Oh.
So that's, that's where we've moved. So there's, you know, there's,
there's been big movements. Sadly, it's, again, it's taken, which happened in the States, it's taken the loss of, of loved ones who, um, you know, to show
exactly what, what, what's happening and what's been happening for many, many generations. 'Cause this isn't new. You know that all as well as I do.
Right.
And, you know, I, I go back... If I look back on my career,
I go back in my memory back to 1966, and, um, I was a very young boy of six years of age, and England were in the World Cup final, played West Germany in the World Cup final. England won four-two, first and only time they've ever won the World Cup. And I watched it with me dad while we were on holiday. I remember being on me dad's shoulders in a cinema watching the game. And that's when I fell in love with football. And there was a, a guy who played, well, two in particular who played for England, Nobby Stiles and Bobby Charlton. And, um, they were, along with others, heroes of mine. So I fell in love with the game then. Sadly, which, you know, when, you, you, you know, you look back to 1966, both those great footballers, icons, absolute legends, both died with CTE and dementia. In fact, half the side, half the side in that 1966 game,
six of them,
um, actually succumbed to dementia and CTE. So, you know, as far back as 1966, the evidence was there. So I fell in love with the game then, and, um,
I got to age 11 and, and, uh,
the opportunity was there to go for a
trial. You know, I knew I was good. I knew, I knew I had ability. My parents
didn't have a clue. I was a young kid, so-
Mm-hmm
... even though I was saying, "I'm gonna be a footballer, I'm gonna be a footballer, that's what I wanna do," my parents would say, "You know, son, um, that's what every child your age wants to do. Y- you know, you need to concentrate on your education. The odds are it's not gonna happen, so, you know, just concentrate on your education." But it's not like... I was just... That was it. It was just tunnel vision. That's what I wanted to do.
So, so let me, let me make a comment before we
get, get into your, your youth and, and-
Yeah
... and that, that, that's a fascinating story because I've read the first chapter of your book, and I hope you're working on the second and the third-
I am, yeah
... and the fifth and the tenth. Good. Back to the litigation. Yes, it's unfortunate that these, some of your heroes and, and some of the higher echelon when you played. Uh, it's almost like they better, they better settle it because the, the cer- the truth of the science is evolving and it's coming out. And do they... It's kind of like, do you, do you wanna be liable for mu- much, much more? I mean, it's almost like, think about it, you know? Let's li- nip this in the bud and, and let's... That's, that's kind of what the NFL did back in 2014 because they, their litigation was four or five years, and it was... It's almost like they wanted to get it over with and get on with the next football season.
Right.
Un- unfortunately, the science was not caught up to the point with C- especially with CTE, uh, that, uh, they, they actually were able to expunge that from the settlement. But I think what you guys have been able to do is make sure that, that, that CTE is going to be part of the damages.
Mm-hmm.
So kudos to you and godspeed. Jump back into the youth. So at six or seven, you, you said you saw- A, a, a great match. Would you-- did you say it was Germany or?
It was England versus West Germany in the World Cup final, yeah. It was-
Wow
... obviously your biggest game, and we've just had one, haven't we, with, um-
Right
... Argentina and Spain. So, so it was the only one England have ever won, the only one World Cup they've ever won. So that set me off on my path, really. And from the age of 11, that's when it got to the stage when you really started to play on a serious level. Because even football in those days, it's much more organized now, but even then in, it would be 1971. I don't know how it works in the States when you're a youngster, but you play for... if you're good enough, you go for a trial, you're picked, and you play for your city team. So my city obviously is, is Liverpool.
Oh.
So, um, and the Football Association, this is really important, this part. The Football Association, who is the authority that
we're obviously, um,
in a litigation with at the moment, they, they are in charge of sports, elite sports, all sport really, particularly elite sports from a very young age. So you
enter into elite football at the age of 11. You would think as an 11-year-old, and you've got all these elite footballers, all these footballers who are playing for the city team that, um, you know-
How old were the, h- how old were the, uh, the kids? Were they much older?
All my age, you're 11, 11-
Okay. Okay
... 11 years of age.
All right.
So you're then picked to, to represent your city, which means
your life changes because even at that age, you then have to go up another level. You train, as we did then as 11-year-olds, we, we trained twice a week. And as you can imagine, as a young boy, you're still developing your skills.
We, we would train full on, and it would be heading, you know, heading hundreds of times a week in training and tackling full on, full contact. Um, and that was from the age of 11. And you would think it, it w- it would be certainly
be overseen by the authorities, but, but it wasn't. You were t- basically your city team and the coaches and whoever was involved in that, they were the ones who looked after your welfare.
Oh.
So I, you know, you know, I, I, I, I was lucky enough to... You know, that was the start of my career path, and thank God that it, it went, it went well. So I, I played all that year for Liverpool Schoolboys. And as I say, you know, you're constantly in full contact training. But we then played for the city team. You have to play for your school, and some young boys would also play for a, a Sunday team. So you play three games a week-
Wow
... or three games a week, and you'd be training at least twice a week.
Uh-huh.
Every day at the age of 11, you're playing this sport, you're getting these subconcussions, and it's not even talked a- it's not even an issue. It's not, not discussed with parents or, you know, it's just part-
And you're going... and you're expected to excel in school,
so-
As well, yeah, yeah.
Oh my gosh. Yeah.
Yeah. And obviously, I didn't because-
Just, just well enough, right?
Yeah. Yeah, I did okay. I did all right because, um, I was bright anyway, so I was lucky in that sense. But I, um,
as I say before, football was all I ate, slept, and drank. It was all I wanted to do, and nothing was gonna stop me from doing that. Y- and I know you, you as a, an elite athlete understand that.
Yeah, yeah.
You would have been the same.
Yeah. When, when I was growing up in the States, and I'm just a few years behind you, I started in a li- little league. I just didn't started playing, uh, football, uh, American football until 14, 13, 14 years old in high school. It's the, uh... you have the school team, and then you, you have the traveling league outside of the schools. So we didn't have... it wasn't as organized, uh, as your city team, your high school team, and then your... did you say you play on Sundays in another league?
I didn't. I just played twice a week, uh, for my school-
Right
... and for the, the school-
Right
... because I, I, I think, and you, it wasn't health- I didn't think it was healthy, um, and you need a break. And, and Sunday was my only day that I had a break, and I'd go to church every Sunday anyway.
If you're on the city team, there's a lot of competition, I guarantee.
Yeah.
If you're the upper echelon, you, you have to work twice as hard to, you know, keep your spot.
Yeah. Yeah.
Wow.
And you're targeted as well because they know that you're an elite player. So the elite players usually come in for, you know, still do come in for, you know, a little bit more of a physical challenge, should I say. Because skill-wise, they... some of these lads aren't, aren't able to match your skill level, but what they can do is match you physically.
Mm-hmm.
And that's what they, they usually used to do in, in those days. We, we, Liverpool Schoolboys went from age 11 right through to, to 15, but every year you had to prove you had to,
to go, go into it again and have a trial to show that you were developing and you were just as good, if not better, and you had to improve. If you didn't improve and you stood still, you dr- you, you basically, you're out. So it was quite brutal in a sense because Liverpool, being a big city and being a big football city, we had a history of the cup that we won, the competition that we were being groomed for, if you like, was called the Football Association, the FA Schools Trophy, which was the highest trophy that you could win as a schoolboy. So we were, right from the age of 11, we were being groomed to
be of a level at 15 where we were el- the elite of the elite, if you like.
Right.
We wanted to win that competition.
Right.
So, um, there was a lot of pressure. You know, it, uh, it, it was a big change in,
in, um, you know, going from a young boy loving and enjoying football, and all of a sudden he's still a kid, still a baby really, and you're under pressure. You're in, you're under pressure to develop, you're under pressure to get better, and you're under pressure to, to try and stay fit as well. Um, you know, because as you grow in any way, every part of your body, including your brain, um,
is, is very much in, in development, isn't it? So, so, you know, some lads didn't, didn't quite make it because they'd fall foul of injury or whatever. But I was lucky enough to get right through to the under 15s, and we actually went on to win the English Schools Trophy that year, which was, you know, it was like five-year,
um, challenge. Winning that w- was amazing.
Mm-hmm.
And obviously when you get to that age, that's when the big clubs start looking for you. What I'm not telling is, um,
couple of important things. One game in particular, I remember I was 13 years of age in the under 13 Liverpool Schoolboy team, and I went in for a challenge, won the ball, but the lad who was coming in the opposite way was a bit late, and we both slid in, but he's missed the ball and both his knees just landed on the point of my jaw. I was lights out, was, was unconscious. I'm 13 years of age, unconscious, and I just remember... It, it's a funny feeling. A buzzing sensation and then
a smell, smell that I, I always seem to... Everything concussion that I got, I always remember the feeling in my nose. So hard to pinpoint. It was like a sensation when you're coming to. And I remember coming to and the, um, the coach saying to me, um, "It's okay, Roy. It's okay. You've still got all your teeth."
In a bit of a jokey way, he said, "Come on, son. Up you get."
So I had a cold sponge, smelling salts. "You okay to carry on?" And I didn't, I didn't, didn't know where I was. I, I, you know, I was, I was a bit woozy, felt a bit sick. But the last thing you wanna do, as I said, because it was so competitive, was say, "No, I'm not okay. I need to come off." Um, so I said, "Yeah, yeah, I'm okay." So I played on, and that was at 13 years-
At 11, you guys, y- you were heading the ball hun- hundreds of times a week. You were-
Much heavier ball then as well, Paul. Much heavier the ball than there is today.
Oh, really?
Yeah. And that's something we'll talk about later. I always thought that we were in more danger years ago because of the, the heaviness of the ball. It's actually not quite true. We'll talk about that later on. But it certainly used to have an effect on, on, on lads. I've, I've often seen young kids heading the ball incorrectly. The ball hits them on the top of the head.
You know, it's like stars and-
Mm-hmm.
So that was going on from 11 onwards, yeah.
Yeah. You know, you, you notice w- you, we, we have the helmets and, and we use them as weapons, but we always hit with the forehead.
Yeah.
You never hit with the top of the head.
Top of the head.
So I, I know exactly what you're saying.
Mm-hmm.
Some people would say, you know, we American football players are sissies because you guys did everything without pads, so...
Well, I was one of them when I was a rugby player, and I used to think that, but I know it's not true now. I know it's not true.
Well, thank you, but you guys were probably tougher than us. B- b-
No, I don't think so.
Believe you. But, but a- again, you're, you're 11, you're 12, you're 13 years old, and you're, you're competing, and you're going after the ball, and you're knocking heads, and you're hitting bodies, and you're getting whiplash, and you're, you're, you're, your head is going back and forth, and the, the brain is sloshing and moving, and it's hitting the sides of your skull and the front and back of your skull.
Mm-hmm.
That's happening at 11, 12, 13 years old.
And, and it's a-
Younger now, Paul. Younger now. I mean, the, the, the, the young boys at the academy are in there now at seven and eight years of age, so, um, it's even younger now.
Yeah.
That's one thing that I've kind of evolved over the last 18 months to two years do- doing the "Head Rush" podcast is... But then I was thinking, "Well, I didn't play until I was 14 years old." Uh, I played 20 years of organized football, and the science is saying, is stating you, the more years you play, the higher at risk you are for re- you know, for repeated head impact damage and neurological damage and CTE, period, right? But the seven-year-old kids, I, I'm almost to the point where it, "Hey, hey, parents, it's illegal. You better understand what you're doing to your kids when you put a helmet on them." Or... And, and l- let me ask you a question. With the soccer, are they s- are they s- allowed to head the ball at seven years old, or have the leagues-
Not now. Thankfully, um... You'll have to excuse me because my memory obviously is not great, but there is a, there was a,
a lady who I talked to, and it's, um, it's Head...
I can't remember the name of the charity.
Head Heads Up? No, uh, Head Safe?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Head Safe. And that... And they,
they campaigned for years, and they've... Obviously, that's come to fruition now where you're not allowed to head the ball until you're 13 years of age-
Right, that's great
... which I think is a huge, huge win. I still think we can do more. I think, still think we need to go a bit later than that. There's a lot of kickback, though, you know, an awful lot of kickback. I've been reading even recently and, and, and, um... It's what really...
It makes me angry sometimes. It really, it does, and I find it hard to, to hold that in sometimes. You, you listen to some of these-
Young players now, some of the, even some of the older ones who are still playing and, and the lads who, who obviously got ambition to become elite footballers. And, uh,
without knowing the science that, that there's, you know, they say it's ridiculous. How can you not have heading in the ball? You need to learn how to head the ball. You, you need to
be able to take full contact. And it's as, as if they don't understand
the implications of ignoring the science and just,
you know, saying, "Forget the risk. Forget the fact that, you know, your brain doesn't stop developing until you're 21." That young brain can be catastrophically injured from the age of seven right up till you're 21 with one concussion, never mind multiple concussions and hundreds of thousands of sub-concussions, which some of these young lads, including me, had before you even turned professional. So some of the ignorance that is out there, it makes me angry because it's almost that they make statements that are
blind. They're ignorant. They're not based on... They're not looking at the science or the facts,
and it's almost as if,
you know, they're putting themselves first and, "Well, I, I want to make a..." Because now, obviously, especially in professional contact sports all over the world, when I played, we were, we were never gonna be millionaires. You know, we were paid... It, it doesn't compare. My first wage as a professional footballer was 120 pound a week.
Mm-hmm.
Now these lads are earning, young lads are earning 100,000 pounds a week.
Mm-hmm.
So it's cash-orientated. So these young kids see the money and see the cash, and, and I think they're willing to,
you know, put their lives on the line. I, you know, I don't think any amount of money is, is worth going through what myself and many,
many other families are going through right now. It, it really isn't. And, um,
we've gotta get a hold on this. We really have, and we, we've got to make change happen, Paul. And I know that's something that you've been fighting for for a long time, more, more, probably longer than I have. And it's our, it's our duty, basically, to carry on doing that and hopefully educate these people that the risk's just not worth the risk.
How do we
get the parents to understand, you know? Is, is it the schools? Is it the, the professional sport, sporting leagues? I know, you know, in, in the States, you know, the NFL is supporting flag football, and their message is, "Hey, flag football is fun, and it's great, and you can get your agilities, and you can work on your, you know, agilities." But they're not saying, "By the way, if you, if you put a helmet on at eight years old or nine years old, brain damage." They're not saying that.
No.
And-
Do you know, Paul, I'm, I'm, I'm very proud that I, I was asked to be, be an ambassador for Head to Change, which is, um, a charity i- i- in the UK, um, run by Alex Popham and, um, and his wife. Um,
th- they have been going for a few years now. They're running an education, um, education,
uh, system, which they are going to schools, they're going to colleges, they're going to parents, they're going to teachers, they're going to coaches. They, they've brought their role in this education,
um, system out right throughout the country. It's gathering speed. Still got a long way to go, but, you know, Head to Change are doing an amazing job at trying to
look at where we can make a difference, and that's gotta start at the bottom, at grassroots sports.
Mm-hmm.
And the parents need to be educated and, and obviously all the groups that, that I've just mentioned there. I think you're looking to do similar things. You know, uh, we've spoken before. I think that has to be
the beginnings. It's getting out there into the communities, which I think we have to do. Get into the communities, talk to these kids, talk to the parents, get them on board, talk to the teachers who teach these kids. You know, it's the only way forward for me, and that's where we build the structure from, from... You know, as you know in building, y- you, the structure's gotta be there first. You've gotta dig the, um-
Foundation.
The foundation is so important. Dig the foundations. That, that, that's the most important thing, and then build on the foundations. And I think that's what Head to Change are, are trying to do at the moment with some success. And, and hopefully that gets bigger and bigger, and we can pass that on to other groups and, and other football clubs and rugby clubs. And, you know, this is just the beginning. We've got a long way to go, but education, education, education. I think that is the, the key word.
Let me, let me ask you about rugby in particular. Um, obviously in, in soccer or the real football, you, you know, you can, you can limit heading. You know, you can't start heading until 13 or 14 years old. You limit to the collisions. What about rugby? Can you actually
play rugby and limit collisions?
I think, I think they do now. I think they play similar to, uh, um, American football. They play, uh, touch, touch rugby up to a certain age. I, I don't know the facts. The... Although I played the game, I played rugby league, two forms of rugby, rugby union and rugby league, and I played the rugby league game. That's 13 a side. Rugby union is 15 a side. Rugby league is more, I would say, a, um- And no one would, would, would, uh, tell me off for saying this, but w- it more of a working-class game, rugby league, so it was a bit, a bit tougher certainly. When I played in the '70s and '80s, it was, um, and '80s, it was,
it was, um, it was borderline... It was brutal. It was absolutely brutal. In those days, you got-
Well, that, that was, that's the scrum and the, the stuff that-
Yeah, yeah. And, and-
Okay
... high tackles were normal. You could, you, you could be running... You get a pass, you could be running full speed, and it was called a clothesline tackle. So as you're running past someone, they just did that.
Oh, yeah.
And you'd just run straight into the arm under the jaw, and you'd see lads all the time, their legs would be higher than their head-
Yeah
... and the head would hit the floor.
Oh, yeah.
And, uh, they outlawed that in the end. But that used to go on a lot when I played. And high tackles were always, always a, um,
an issue that would be ignored by referees. And, and in fact, my career ended in a, in a place in North Yorkshire. We were playing Batley, and, and, uh, I'd received a pretty bad pass. I'd picked it up and then knew I was gonna get hit by three or four of them. So I tried to crash in with my left shoulder so they could take me over the line for the try. But it was a high tackle, caught me under the chin. I don't remember anything else until I woke up. The ball had gone out of touch apparently, but when I woke up and tried to put weight on my leg, it was like a rag doll. My ACL had completely been ruptured, um-
Oh
... because of I was unconscious when I fell, so I had no control. So it ruptured me ACL and had a really bad-
Oh
... concussion. But tried to play on, you know, 'cause that's the way it was. Tried to play on, couldn't walk, and, and they took me off.
And that was the, the, the last game of rugby league that I, I ever played. So it was brutal. It was absolutely brutal. There was no protection. A referee would, you know... It w- wasn't unknown that you'd have four or five players sent off in one game. You know, it was absolutely brutal. Um-
Sure.
But when I, when I first joined, I think, I think I was that quick because I'd been a professional footballer for so long. I was that
fast that I wasn't being caught. So even if I didn't collect the ball properly, I was that far ahead of them because in those days, rugby players were, were part-time, so they'd train twice a week and play twice a week.
Uh-huh.
With football, you'd play five times... you'd train five times a week and play of a Saturday. So I was that much quicker. So in the early days when I was being noticed, I, I just wouldn't be caught. But as time went on,
I slowed down a little bit, and then the hits started to happen.
Let me... Let's go back. You, you were talking about 14 years old and then-
Yeah
... 15 years old, the high school, the, uh, the, uh, the ci- the city team-
The city team
... the elite team. When did you, when did you... Take us into the pros.
Okay.
Did you... Were you professional at 15 or 16, or w-
No, no.
Does that happen that young, or no?
No, you're not allowed to. No, you can't start in professional form till you're 18.
18.
So, uh, yeah, same now as well. So I, um... Liverpool FC had obviously noticed me, and a few other clubs had come in and made me decent offers. But I only had...
My heart was set on Liverpool. Obviously, I'm wearing, wear a liver bird, and Liverpool's synonymous to the liver bird, and Liverpool FC wear that on the chest. So I wanted that liver bird on my chest, the very famous liver bird.
I was only ever gonna pick Liverpool. So they came in and, um, they made me an offer, and I, I just jumped at, you know, I jumped at-
Uh-huh
... the chance to sign. And they had high hopes for me. Even at 15, they, they asked me to come and train with the first team. So I was training with the first team at 15 years of age.
Wow.
It was... For me, it was... I remember the first day turning up at Anfield, a very famous stadium, and you travel from Anfield to the training ground, which was then Melwood. I remember pulling the, the top on and going out with the lads. These names that I'd watched from a tiny boy, uh, and I was playing alongside them. I was training alongside them. It was like... It was surreal, you know. The, the first few days, I, I, I think I was walking around in a daze. I really was. It was... I couldn't believe what was happening to me. But, you know, it,
I was there and I was playing and, and everything. They had great... I think they had great hopes for me. Uh, so I was picked as 15s, played for the youth team, which was really young youth team. It was, it was the first game of the season, and it was against a club called Tranmere Rovers, which was a,
a local team just across the water over, over the River Mersey. Uh, not as good as Liverpool, quite a small side, but, um, it was a game, and I, I had made my debut.
And unfortunately for me,
it could only happen to me. My first game, um, I was tackled from behind
and had a really bad leg break. Broke my leg-
Oh, wow
... in the first 20 minutes. So it was a bad break. It was on the growth plate, and, um, took me a year to get back, to get back. And I was 16 by this stage. So I'm 16, and Liverpool now have to pick what's called their apprentices. So you go into an apprenticeship at 16.
Right.
So as an apprentice, it's your job to clean the boots, to clean- ... the dressing room, to get the balls ready for training, to polish the boots.
You're the rookie.
You're the rookie. So you do all- ... clean the toilets, all the really-
Oh, gosh
... awful jobs. And then when you've done all that, you, you, you then train with, with the rest of the lads. And then after training, again, you do all your jobs. So Liverpool basically said to me, "Look, you're never gonna make it. You're never... Unfortunately, that leg break
is going to end your career. You're not gonna get your speed back. You will not have your strength in tackle. I'm sorry, Roy, but we can't offer you an apprenticeship." And I, I was absolutely-
Devastated. I remember thinking, "What am I gonna do? Where does my life go now?" You know, this is all I wanted to do. What, what am I gonna do? And for a while, it, it really hit me. I felt a bit sorry for myself, I think. But not for long. I just thought, "Right,
I'm gonna show you. I'm, I'm not accepting this. I'll show you. I'll go back, get myself fit, and maybe another club will come in, see me, and sign me on." It was a bit of a long shot, but I thought, "You know, I-
I've got to go for it. Nothing to lose." So I started playing for a local amateur team,
and luckily, I'd been in the right place at the right time. Scouts from, again, a few different clubs came in, and the offers came tumbling in again. And, and Bolton Wanderers were my first pick because they were... had just been promoted into the big league with Liverpool. And I thought, "I wanna play at Anfield. I wanna play against Liverpool. I wanna show them that they were wrong to let me go." So I signed for Bolton, did me apprenticeship for a year. Whilst I was 17, I made my debut for Bolton, and the game I made my debut for was against Liverpool at Anfield. And I came on and scored, and, uh, did quite well, did okay. I think we lost the game one-nil, but for me, it was a win-win. Got back, I'd showed them that I wasn't finished.
Did they... did anybody come up from Liverpool?
They did, yeah. They, they came in the changing room at, at the end of, of the game, which was huge for me. It was the, the guy who'd signed me, his name was, uh, John Bennison. He was well-known, still well, well-known today, um, at the club. And he come in, and he just shook me hand, and he went, "Bloody Roy Heaney." He said, "Bloody Roy Heaney." He said, "Well done, son." He said, "I am so pleased for you." He said, uh, "Well done. Congratulations."
That, that must have felt good. I mean-
Oh, it felt great, yeah.
It's a bummer that you weren't with Liverpool anymore, but that, uh, at least they-
It felt great
... they were gentlemen about it. He-
He signed me. You know, that was, that was great. It was a big boost. You know, I stayed at Bolton for five years, played, um, a number of games for the first team. Not, you know... You know, I wanted more. I wanted...
I was a bit... When I look at it, I was very, um... I was a young lad that was... wanted things to happen quickly, and I should have been more patient. Um, do you know, when I look back, I look back on it, and whether this is true or not, Paul, I don't know, but as a footballer, I had many more head injuries in football than I did in rugby league, some serious ones. Um, remember playing against a side called, called Leeds United, who were a big team, big Premier League team in the UK. And, um, in the first minute, I'd, I'd won a tackle, and the guy goes up in the air and comes down, lands with his studs on my head, and
I remember being groggy and blood pouring out me head. And I had to go off, had my head stitched, went back on, carried on. Uh, and then second half, going up for the header, and the center, center forward just comes across me with the elbow and
elbows me in the jaw, and I'm, and I'm out. I'm just out. And again, remember coming, came to in the, um, the changing room, so stretched it off. Um, so I've got this big gash in the head. My jaw was
like that, so I knew I'd broken my jaw. And, uh, it was a bit more serious than that. So I had an X-ray the following day, and the jaw had been broken, but it had also come off the, the hinge, so it was totally dislocated as well.
Oh, God. Lord.
So, um, but that was football, you know? That's the w- that's... The game was like that then. It was a tough sport then. So no MRI. "Oh, how's your head?" Or, you know, "Are you feeling okay?" Nothing.
Uh-huh.
So, so anyway, had surgery. They opened me up at the temple, went in and did surgery and put some plates in and all that to sort the issue out. And then I had another injury a year or so later where
I got elbowed in the face again, broke my nose in two places, and my eye socket, just smashed my eye socket.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, again, no MRI, just, you know, "Let's get you to the hospital." Again, had an operation. Um,
and the hits kept coming. I rem- I remember one as a young... My first one ever was, uh, again, an elbow, and split me head open. Had stitches. I'd been sick all weekend, didn't feel well at all, felt dizzy. I'd been vomiting. And I came into it, I came into training. This was when I was only an apprentice, so I was 17-
Uh-huh
... 17 years of age. And the, the coach and the tra- the physiotherapist said to me, "Are you okay? I believe you had a bit of a bad head knock at the weekend." I went, "Yeah, I've, I've had 10 stitches." And he went, "Oh, God." He said, uh, "How are you feeling?" I said, "I don't feel well. I don't feel right. I'm dizzy. I've been vomiting all weekend." I said, "Me head is banging." And he said, "Here's two paracetamols. Go and have a hot bath."
And that was, that was my treatment for, uh,
a head injury, and that was in 1977. And it didn't get any better. You know, that's the way it was all my career. And, um-
Wow
... there just wasn't any... Just get up, get on with it, get back out there.
Uh, the... I was knocked out five times. I only remember two or three of them.
Yeah.
But nothing is brutal. They had stopped the head slap. That was illegal. And the clotheslining, head tackle, that was illegal.
Yeah.
But, you know, we had helmets on. We didn't, didn't get elbows and get... didn't have our jaws broken and dislocated. But, um, I remember one time I got knocked out, and it was against the Pittsburgh Steelers, and I jacked the guard, and I tossed him, and I put my head down right on the running back's, the ball, and he fumbled the ball. But the problem is I hit the top of my head. I didn't hit my forehead. And I was down too low, and it was almost... I was very fortunate because then you get a compression fracture.
Yeah.
Your, your, your C5 or C6 can just explode. But fortunately-
Yeah
... that day, I kn- I got knocked out, and I... We recovered the ball, and I followed the d- I woke up, and I followed the defense off the field, and then our quarterback throws an interception the next play, and I follow the defense back on the field, and I come off the field at third down instead of fourth down after the punt, and I'm like, "Where am I? What's going on? What are we doing?" And, uh, the trainer, the trainer took my helmet, you know, and he said, "You're, you're done." And that was the first quarter, and I kind of woke up in the third or in the fourth quarter with five sec- five minutes left in the game, and I'm like, "We're in Three Riv- River Stadium playing the Pittsburgh Steelers. Okay." And, uh, but they never tested me. They never asked me about the concussion. They ne-- I just went to practice on Tu- on Wednesday. That was it.
But, but... And, and, you know, do you not feel... You must feel, as I do sometimes, disgusted with it, but so lucky because that could have been fatal, couldn't it? That could have been fatal. Tho- those occasions that you talked about, and those occasions... And I think for me, with... you talk about
toughness in sports. I don't think rugby players or footballers are any tougher than American footballers because that helmet is an issue for me. I... It's an issue because you lead with that helmet, so you've got this confidence in this-
Mm
... helmet over this skull that you think this helmet's gonna protect your brain when we know now that it, it c- it doesn't. If anything, it probably makes it worse, in my opinion.
Yeah, you're, you're right.
Because you're leading with that confidence.
Y- you, you said... You hit the nail right on the head. You said you think you're protecting your brain.
You do. You're not. You're not, do I-
You're not.
You're not.
The only thing you're protecting is, you know, break- raking your skull, uh, you know, hitting another player.
And if anything, you're going in... The velocity you're going in with that helmet on, if you didn't have a helmet on, you w- you wouldn't go in at that level. So you're going in-
Correct
... at a much quicker level with this helmet. So, bang, as soon as you hit another helmet or a, or a person's body, that pressure wave in your skull, your brain, as you said earlier on, like jelly, it's just-
Yeah. Yeah.
And that, um, is when the tau gets released, obviously, and-
Mm-hmm
... and that's where the CTE begins, isn't it?
Right. You're right. You're right. Now,
let me ask you a question. I mean, we're, we're going on about 45 minutes. We wanna do this over the next month or two, may- maybe get together for one or, one or two more episodes. Should we, should we-
I'd love to
... should we leave it right there, you know, talking about-
Yeah, I think we should. Uh, there's a lot to talk about. Yeah. I, I don't think we could... I mean, you know as well as I do, there's so much we talk about all the time, and there's so much, I think, that... I, I think there's a lot of good we can do-
Right
... with, with these podcasts. A, a lot of good. You know, I, I, I hope I'm not overstretching here, but I really believe there's a lot we can do in regard to awareness and education and just giving people hope as well, which is what we're about. It's about... We're talking about the dark side. There is a dark side of all sport.
Mm-hmm.
But the last thing we want to do is stop people fr- playing sport because it's the healthiest thing in the world you can do.
Right.
But we just want them to do it safely and give people the opportunity to make a choice. So I think that's important. But we, we've got so much to cover, Paul, I think we're not gonna do it
in, in an hour.
No, no, you're right. But that, that's, that's great. Interestingly, sport is, is great. Sport does-
Yeah
... teach you. Team sport is great as well. I mean, I mean, I think the team sport is better-
Absolutely
... than chasing a, a little golf ball around, but- ... they're, they're, they're making a lot of money nowadays too. But th- th- that's only-
Just a bit, yeah. Just a bit.
But that's only the top 100 in the world, I guess. But anyway, yeah. Uh, but, but we... The funny thing is, the more research and the more science i- i- that gets involved, what, what is some of the best therapy for repeated head imp- impacts and dementia and staving off Alzheimer's and dementia? What is the best therapy? Actually, it's, it's sport. It's, it's more indivi- individualized-
Mm-hmm
... but it's working out.
Right.
It's be- it's being disciplined to eat the right things, to be, keep healthy, try and-
But still, why... I was on a downward spiral, I think, and, um,
at nearly 18 and a half stone and, um, spiraling really. My health was not good. Mental health, my physical health was really poor, and it was only speaking to you guys, you and Thrú and David, giving me
alternatives and looking at things differently. And
I'm lucky that I have a f- a very supportive family and wife who's also quite strict on me, and she also made sure that I toed the line, and, and I'm five and a half stone lighter now. I feel much better.
Oh, really?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And my, um, my... I th- I think, you know, as you say, they're the key points. You've got to,
you've got to take the power yourself, and you've got to make changes-
Right
... because this disease is really difficult to have, and it gives us some very dark moments and some very challenging times, sometimes on a regular basis. But the more you mitigate those issues with how you live, how you feel, what you do with your life-
I just think you're giving yourself more of a chance to prolong that and continue to make memories, which is-
Mm
... what we all need to do, isn't it?
Yeah, a- absolutely. It's, it's about relationship. You, you have two daughters?
Three, yeah. Three girls.
You have three daughters that you've made many memories with.
Only, no, that's with Deb. I, I, I do, I have, um, I have six children. I have five girls and one boy. But Deb and I have, have three girls, yeah.
Yeah, that's wonderful. And you're able to make memories. I, I know-
Yeah
... you, you go on vacation or holiday or whatever you guys call it across the pond -
We do
... and, and it's, it's, it's wonderful that you're able to do that. And, and I guarantee... So, yeah, Frue, Frue and David, um, they had it right. You know, food is the medicine, and Frue, uh, really, she was the first one to, to introduce me to kind of the, to the nerves, the nervous-
Yeah
... I don't know the science-
The vagus nerve. The vagus nerve, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. And, and now, and now my, um, uh, my, my, now my wife, uh, she, she's all into food as the medicine, and she's playing soft woo-woo music all the time. It's like, it, it, it, it calms me down. It-
It helps, yeah.
Yes, it helps.
Yeah, it does. And we're lucky, we're lucky, I think, you know, to have that support, because I think anybody who's struggling from a neurological brain disease needs a lot of support and a lot of understanding, because there are some tough moments, Paul, aren't there?
It's the understanding, the, when, when the caregiver understands, okay, that's not who he is.
Yeah.
That's who he's become once in a while, and I've gotta figure out, you know, how to bring him back.
Yeah.
Bring him back to, to Roy.
Yeah.
And, and Paul, and to Paul,
you know? So, all right. I, I wanna keep talking, but I wanna, I wanna save some content for-
Yeah
... for the next one. So, uh-
Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah.
Great talking to you and, and seeing you. And I know, I think you have, uh...
Are you all holidayed out at this time? Are you guys-
Well, we, we are to degree. We have a, a black Labrador who is the, uh, center of our life, Rudy. He is, uh, he's with me every day. We have, um, something called Bonfire Night here, which is, um, the, the, the... A guy many years ago tried to blow up the House of Parliament and failed, Guy Fawkes. And we still celebrate that to this day. That was about 400 years ago. He failed-
Right
... unfortunately. Yeah, so we celebrate that every year, and Rudy is terrified of fireworks. I mean-
Yeah
... terrified. So we get out of Liverpool and we, we, we've got a cottage in North Wales, so we go to a cottage in North Wales, out in the middle of the sticks.
Yeah. Well, enjoy-
There's nothing going there. We'll do that
... enjoy.
Yeah. Yeah.
You enjoy that. I, I really enjoyed talking to you, Roy. I'm looking forward-
And you, Paul
... to the, to the next time we, we do get together. Until then, you keep staying-
Well, you're like, you're like a brother to me, not just a friend. And, uh, I always enjoy speaking to you. I love hearing your voice. And, um, we will get together. If it's not next year, it'll be the year after. But we, we'll... I will definitely make my way over to the US.
Sounds good. And if, if, if you get to the USA and we meet in, uh, in Alaska, we... I, I think you, you, you-
Yeah, that's the plan.
You mention, you mention Alaska, just, just remember, I'm younger than you, and I only have to be faster than you because the bear can catch you and not me. So...
All right, Roy.
Thanks, Paul.
Thank you.
Thank you so much. Bye, Paul.
All right, bye.