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The Bigger Stage w/ Matt Stone is a conversation series about leadership, relationships, and the stories that expand influence.
Matt Stone sits down with CEOs, founders, leaders, and creatives to explore the human moments behind growth—how trust is built, how visibility changes responsibility, and how storytelling becomes a leadership skill as stakes rise.
This show is for entrepreneurs and leaders stepping into bigger roles, bigger audiences, and bigger impact—who want to lead with clarity, credibility, and connection, not performance.
*Copy of TBS - Jacqueline Wales
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[00:00:00] I no longer believe in being fearless. I believe in being fear smart, which is a whole lot different.
[00:00:06] What other people are thinking is none of your business.
[00:00:08] It's enough to handle your own thinking.
[00:00:10] People look at me now and they go, "Well, you're so confident, and you definitely seem to have it all together." Well, yeah, let me tell you about the last 70 years. Not so much, thank you very much. Analyze the fear, notice the fear, and do it anyway.
[00:00:26]
[00:00:26]
[00:00:30] There's a moment right before you step into the light, the pitch, the raise, the room waiting on you, where your body tells you to stop. Most people call that fear and try to kill it. My guest built a career on a different move. Don't kill it, read it. This isn't about overcoming fear or becoming fearless.
[00:00:48] Jacqueline Wales calls that a fantasy. It's about the thing nobody wants to admit is running the show, and learning to read it as data, not disaster. Fear [00:01:00] decides before you do. The work is deciding with it. My guest is, as I mentioned, Jacqueline Wales. At 54, she watched the life she had built vanish in the 2008 crash.
[00:01:11] Fortune gone, four kids still looking to her. Most people would call that the end. She called it research. What she excavated became fear intelligence, the work she now brings to CEOs and executive teams worldwide. Four-time author, TEDx speaker, and a black belt who earned it at age 49. She doesn't teach this from theory.
[00:01:34] She teaches it from the floor she had to climb up off of. So if you're a founder staring down a bigger stage, the moment the lights swing to you and everyone waits to see if you flinch, this one's for you. How to make that fear the thing that moves you forward. Jacqueline, welcome to The Bigger Stage.
[00:01:52] Hey, I'm so glad to be here, Matt. It's always a pleasure to spend time with you
[00:01:57] It is always good to see you too. I see you've got your [00:02:00] signature red. I think the first time I ever met you, you had that fabulous red hair, and, uh, you're on brand today, so bringing... Is it, was that a thing that... How does fear intelligence and the color red, uh, I know that's like a signature color for you, yes?
[00:02:16] Is that, has
[00:02:17] mean, it, it, you know, my previous books were called The Fearless Factor, and as you noted in the introduction, I no longer believe in being fearless. I believe in being fear smart, which is a whole lot different, uh, conversation. But the, uh, back in the fearless '50s or in The Fearless Factor days, it was green. Now it's red because we're all about power, and we're all about bringing it all forward with great honesty, and I think red really, you know, that in some ways. One Chinese woman said to me, "Red is such a powerful color. Don't you think you want to water it down?" I said, "No. Why?" It gets you noticed.
[00:02:58] More, more.[00:03:00]
[00:03:00] Exactly
[00:03:01] for, for those over a certain age, of which I am one, we remember Sally Jessy Raphael, the talk show host who had signature red glasses, and she always likes to tell the story about how she tried to switch it at some point, and people absolutely would not let her because
[00:03:17] I'll tell you, I walk into these CEO rooms, 'cause I do a lot of, of speaking to, to these groups, and I have on a red suit and red glasses, and they cannot afford to ignore me. It's that simple.
[00:03:32] I love it. I love it. Well, we're, we're not ignoring you today, that's for sure. You're on the center stage and, and we're gonna talk about, you know, your work in fear intelligence and, and specifically how that applies to somebody who's looking to go to their next era, and with that comes different and potentially bigger stages.
[00:03:54] But that's basically on stage or in, in front of a camera and trying to break through the [00:04:00] noise and be heard and understood, uh, and humanize a message so that it cuts across their industry. They move kind of from authority to icon, if you will. So, um, but before we get into that, um, you talked about the evolution of your kind of the way that you're thinking about fear and its usefulness.
[00:04:21] I know I used to talk about fear less, and I said, "It's not about not having fear, it's about, it's about making it less of a negative drag on you." It's... You're not gonna get rid of it. But I think you've taken it even to another level of thought, and you've got a recent book. So let's first let's plug the book.
[00:04:38] What's your most recent book? And then in the book, I know you have frameworks for this, so just tee this up a little bit so we've got some, some foundation for what we're about to talk about.
[00:04:47] this idea of fear intelligence because it really was about how do we see fear as data, not as something that, you know, we can run from. Now let's get fundamental about this. Fear is an emotion. It's one of the [00:05:00] most pow- powerful emotions in the human experience. But frequently, that fear with our thinking processes. Uh, and frequently we are in a fear pattern that may not be true, that we have created in our imagination, and frequently that turns into worst case scenarios, the future's all going down the toilet, people are judging me, rejecting me, uh, I need to get validation. I mean, there's so many areas that fear absolutely interferes, is the word I would like to say, with how we our lives. And so when I took a hard look at that, I started to think about what are all the behaviors that I personally have been part of over several decades in my life. And as you noted, I, the crash came in 2008, 54, and so here I am in my mid-70s, and, um, this has all solidified into this, [00:06:00] this real understanding of what fear truly does to an individual.
[00:06:05] And everything that I've gone through, in fact, I s- usually say to my clients when they say, "I've got a real problem," and I go, "No, no, no, it's not unique. You know, been there, done that, know exactly what this stuff looks like." And then I started to think about the word fear, and what was an acronym for fear, because it really was about how do I build a framework out that would help people to understand how to deal with it more effectively? Again, taking the fact that it's data, it's information. What is it telling you? in order for you to understand what it's telling you, you gotta face the stories that you're sh- that you're, you're running in your life. What is the narrative of who you think you are? What is the narrative of what you think you need to be bringing to the world? What is the narrative that has been running not only your life, but the generations of people before you? Because we're all influenced [00:07:00] by this emotion of fear based on other people's circumstances, authority, whatever the case may be. 'Cause we weren't born with fear. W- that's not how we come into the world.
[00:07:11] Even if you throw a baby up in the, the air, it will have a startle response, but is that really fear? I'm not sure that that's actually what's happening. But I do think that fear is a conditioned response, and we have to be able to go back through the history. I mean, my history was full of dysfunction, poverty, violence, you name it.
[00:07:33] I got thrown the whole damn thing, uh, at me. the point that I'm making about this work now is in being able to help people to understand not only how to face the, the fear stories, that's fundamentally it. do you explore it with curiosity? How do you change the narrative? How do you build a different story of who you are, what you're capable of, where you think you're going? [00:08:00] And how do you move beyond that insecurity and the inadequacy piece of worrying about how people are judging you, which is where people fail on the big stage, because we think too much about what other people are thinking. And of course, you know, I've had to do it too. What other people are thinking is none of your business.
[00:08:21] right
[00:08:21] It's enough to handle your own thinking. So you go from there. So then you've got the explore piece, change the narrative. But when you change the narrative, you gotta change your behavior. So that becomes the act piece of the FEAR acronym. So we've got F-E-A so far. So you take the different actions, small actions, not a lot of, of big steps. Courage shows up. That's the rise piece. You meet the challenge with courage. You meet the challenge with the ability to be uncomfortable until you get comfortable. I people look at me now and they go, "Well, you're so confident, and you definitely seem to have it all together." Well, yeah, [00:09:00] let me tell you about the last 70 years. Not so much, thank you very much.
[00:09:07] Right. Well, actually, when I first met you, you were working on a TEDx talk.
[00:09:14] and, uh, and then you did it. And so I think that's prob- you know, you do have a fascinating background, and for this episode, we're n- we don't have enough time to really go into it. There's... I can tell you people that it's, there's a lot there.
[00:09:29] Uh, but for this episode, I wanted to keep it really focused on the context of speaking and the fear around being on that stage, quite literally. So tell me about your journey, 'cause you were already pretty far along on the fear intelligence development, but it wasn't an easy road, was it? And, and,
[00:09:47] yeah
[00:09:47] started this gig at, at the age of 54 when someone came to me and said, "You know, you'd make an excellent coach." And I was like, "Yeah, well, I've been giving people advice my entire life from, you know, the tenement steps of my building where kids would say, 'What do you [00:10:00] think?' You know, and then I would give them my 10 cents worth for what it was worth." Um, but over the years, uh, you know, when someone finally said after the crash of, of 2008, um, "You'd make an excellent coach, but what do you know the, the most about?" And I said, "I, oh, I don't know. I mean, I've had quite a life," la da da.
[00:10:21] And she went, "Fear. I've heard nothing but fear stories from you over the time we've been talking, and you should talk to others about it." Well, that was the beginning of it. So yeah, I took the coaching program. I became a coach. And I hung out my shingle, and I called it The Fearless 50s because here was a woman in her 50s, and I knew there was a lot of other women in their 50s who were struggling with their own in- insecurities. So that became the beginning of the journey. But f- from there to where we are now, evolution has been stunning, even to me, in terms of the uh, application and the consistent attention [00:11:00] to what fear really was all about for me and for those whose lives I've had the privilege of working with. And the patterns were so obvious. There's nothing new under the sun with regards to what I've put together. Nothing. Except what I've done is I've identified it, and I've pushed people to go, "Is that you?" And they go, "Oh, yeah, that's me." I go, "Okay, great. Now what do you wanna do about it? 'Cause you gotta do something with it.
[00:11:25] Once you recognize it, you can't not see it." And that's, that's really what it comes down to.
[00:11:31] Did you-- We don't openly talk about gender differences much these days for various reasons, some probably good, some probably nonsense. But look, you started off working with women, so I'm just curious, did you notice any patterns where there were fears that women had that the men you've worked with typically didn't?
[00:11:51] Or, or is everybody pretty much the same?
[00:11:54] Men, men are pretty good at bravado.
[00:11:57] A
[00:11:57] pretty good at putting it out there, and even if they're [00:12:00] feeling insecure, uh, they're not gonna let you see it, you know? Whereas women tend to be a lot more transparent about it. Now, women are socialized to shut up, to be perfectly frank. They are socialized to shut up, and they do. And so they second-guess themselves. They doubt their capabilities. They don't speak up in rooms where they should be speaking up. And when it comes to public performances, there's all kinds of, of self-doubt and se- second-guessing going on. And you mentioned my TED Talk.
[00:12:31] I wasn't immune to that. That was very much a big piece of getting on that stage. I mean, I had just taken a, a huge program with Michael and Amy Port on the Heroic Public Speaking is what it was called, and it was really designed to help you as a public speaker really hone your craft. when I got on that TED stage, I was absolutely a nervous wreck, and my dress rehearsal was a complete shit show [00:13:00] simply because I kept losing my place.
[00:13:02] I couldn't remember where I was supposed to be. My slides weren't moving forward, and I kept apologizing, which is another thing women do. We apologize far too much for our existence. And so, you know, and finally I looked at the organizers and I said, "This is what fear looks like. is it." And of course, you know, they said, "It's fine.
[00:13:23] It's fine. We know. Everybody blows it." You're either great on the dress and, and you're wonderful on the stage, or you're great in the dress and you fail on the stage. So,
[00:13:33] Not an unco- not an uncommon phenomena. I, my friend Meredith, who does improv and, and stage work says a lot of times the people who do great in dress, like fail on the stage.
[00:13:43] Yeah, yeah,
[00:13:44] yeah
[00:13:44] And I did the opposite. I failed in the dress, and the next day I showed up and I gave them my 18 minutes. But that 18 minutes was torturous because I had to not only get the script right, but I had a fear in my mind that I couldn't memorize things. [00:14:00] Um, I'm a professionally trained singer, and one of the, the things that's always been a kind of problem for me is memorizing all the lyrics.
[00:14:08] I know music. I can tell you note for note what's going on. But words to go along with that music? Eh, not always clear. Not always clear.
[00:14:16] So
[00:14:16] was a big fear
[00:14:17] l- let me ask you, so just how long was the journey from the time that you decided to, to apply for TEDx until you were on that stage? What was the length of time that you were working on it?
[00:14:29] 18 months,
[00:14:30] Okay, that's what I remember. I remember it was like a year and a half, so good. Okay.
[00:14:35] in that year and a half, what were all of the things that you did to prepare yourself for that moment?
[00:14:42] Well, number one was, um, you know, the script writing itself was fairly, uh, tedious. You and I worked with Brian Morgan, and, uh, Brian was instrumental in helping me look at the script again and again and again until it, it became [00:15:00] something quite significant. Um, so we didn't have AI back then. That, that wasn't a case of, you know,
[00:15:07] That was like several years ago.
[00:15:09] know.
[00:15:11] There was no AI. Isn't that...
[00:15:14] it's like, you know, I, I don't know. We're, we're, we're really kind of, you know, lost on that one. But, um, the, the point that I'm making here is that, uh, you know, there was a lot of iteration on it, but there was also walking round the house with labels on everything, trying to remember which paragraph I was in and, you know, pushing myself to really get this down, and that was a very unusual thing 'cause I'm very good extemporaneously.
[00:15:42] I mean, right now, I can get up, chat anytime. I've always got plenty to say. Um, but this was really different. This put a tremendous amount of stress on me because I believed that this was something that had to be done verbatim. And, uh, what I've discovered since then [00:16:00] is, no, it doesn't. And in fact, you know, I mean, I started my TED Talk with one simple thing.
[00:16:07] I said, "What's your favorite four-letter F word?" Yes.
[00:16:12] that, was that not in the script?
[00:16:13] It, it wasn't, and,
[00:16:15] It wasn't?
[00:16:16] no, it wasn't in the script. And I said, "So what's your favorite four-letter F word?" And, and the, uh, the audience of course laughed just as you did, and I said, "No, not that one. My favorite four-letter F word is fear."
[00:16:30] Fear
[00:16:31] then we went from there. And it really has become an extraordinary thing in my life to be able to at this emotion so intensely through the lens of what I personally have experienced, and then deliver information to others that they can recognize in themselves give them some strategies on how to think about it differently.[00:17:00]
[00:17:04] Yeah. A- and I'm sorry, I'm gonna keep pulling back to visualizing your experience, 'cause I think that's what people really learn from the most, is when they, they, they can see your emotional journey along the way and the things that you actually did that are, were visible. So, uh, maybe it was zero, but how many times did, did you feel like there were heightened moments of fear and anxiety?
[00:17:22] I don't know if you separate those words, but fear and/or anxiety, however you label it, along that 18-month journey. Did you ever wanna just go, "Maybe this isn't for me. Maybe, maybe I'm not gonna do it"?
[00:17:33] Yeah. I mean, there were moments. I mean, when I was in the, the program for Heroic Public Speaking, people would say to me, "You're doing amazing. I mean, you know, you're, you're a great speaker. You've got a lot to offer." Uh, at one point I did a 90-minute, um, a test, it was a much longer script, and I, I delivered on Zoom to this audience. And, um, as it turned out, they all thought it was brilliant, but here's the secret. I was actually [00:18:00] reading as I was speaking and of course, looking like I knew what I was talking about, which I did, but you know, that there's that piece. But to your point, the fear showed up a lot. I mean, I, I definitely had those moments where I'm not sure I can do this.
[00:18:17] I'm not sure I can remember the, the, what it is I wanna say. and of course you're stuck on that little red s- circle
[00:18:25] On their circle, right. And, and there's no do-overs, right? I mean, it's pretty much
[00:18:30] You're, you're stuck with it. And then I look back on that video now and I go, "Hmm, you could've done better," you know? Uh, you could've been a little bit looser.
[00:18:37] But it landed and, you know, right now I've had many thousands of views,
[00:18:44] I was gonna say.
[00:18:45] Yeah
[00:18:46] so your biggest fear, and everyone has their own, but your biggest fear was, "I'm gonna forget the words.
[00:18:52] Yes
[00:18:53] And if I forget the words, it's game over. I'm on the red dot and I got nothing to say."
[00:18:59] And it's not only that I [00:19:00] got nothing to say, it was the fear of criticism the fear of judgment. "Oh, she's no good. She doesn't, she
[00:19:07] Sure
[00:19:07] what she's saying." Um, you know, there's, there's a whole slew of insecurities that are showing up, because that's really what the fear is. It's insecurity. It's that sense of inadequacy that somehow I'm not good enough, I'm not capable.
[00:19:22] In fact, I like to say, if you put the word not in front of any self-identity, uh, piece that you've got going on, you're probably in fear, um, because you're judging yourself negatively. And we're all good at, at judging ourselves negatively. We can be our own worst enemies, and we have to learn how to be our own best friend. 'Cause sometimes, and I hear this all the time, you wouldn't talk to your best friend the way you talk to yourself.
[00:19:49] Yeah.
[00:19:49] That's, that's a big one
[00:19:50] One thing I've noticed over the years is that fear has a way of e- uh, expressing itself much like a skin disease. Like it comes in different rashes. You know, there's like... So [00:20:00] for, for example, one way that it, it will show up in myself and others is anger. That anger, anger is the expression, but the emotion behind it is actually fear.
[00:20:10] So I think of like road rage is often powered by a fear that you're... Someone cut you off, so they get the, uh, middle finger salute and, um, and you're raging at them, but really you were just afraid of like dying. So how d- how have you conceptualized, whether it's in the book or not, you know, the different ways that you can s- 'cause you've already identified how you label it.
[00:20:33] You've, you've, you said, "Oh, that's my friend fear over there again." I mean, how do you, how do you visualize that and work with it?
[00:20:40] So what is it you're feeling? 'Cause emotions are feelings. So what are you feeling? And, uh, if you get the physical signs of fear, many times it's in your stomach, or it's in your shoulders, or it's in your chest, wherever the case may be. You know, it's not just the sweaty palms and the dry mouth. I mentioned earlier that I was a professionally [00:21:00] trained singer.
[00:21:00] Talk about fear. The first time I was invited by our can- our, our, uh, rabbi and cantor to come and deliver the prayer during the High Holiday services, I sat there for the first, you know, hour or so before it was my turn to get up and deliver this thing, and all I could think about was, "I need to go to the bathroom again," because my innards were definitely not good. That's a sure sign right there, you know, um, that fear was, was active. The first few notes out of my, my mouth, my throat was tight. The- there was a lack of the breath in there. And then of course, once I got past that, I delivered what I needed to deliver. And I actually ended up being a cantor for High Holidays in Paris and Amsterdam for five years. And that was a trip because three and a half months I had to learn all this liturgy without being able to read music or being able to read Hebrew, [00:22:00] and talk about fear in terms of, you know, again, "Can I do this? Am I capable of doing this?" And the rabbi was like, "Yeah, of course you can. You can sing. You can do this." Um, and of course I went on to do this for, for quite a long time, but you know, it was, it was a trip. You know, again, fear was there. I had this little mini, uh ... You remember mini players? You know, these little boxes
[00:22:24] Yeah.
[00:22:24] whatever, whatever they were
[00:22:26] With the tape in them?
[00:22:27] Uh, no, it was not even a tape. Uh, uh, you know, there were, you know, it was like before we had the iPhones. Anyways,
[00:22:34] yes, yes, yes. The iPod. The iPod. Mm-hmm.
[00:22:38] like that. It was ... Anyways, the
[00:22:40] It was a digital music player.
[00:22:42] it was a digital music player. It was one of
[00:22:44] Yeah.
[00:22:45] Yeah
[00:22:45] to my voice teacher, and I said, "I need to get all this in my key." And so he recorded me in the key, and I'm standing there at the podium with an ear thing in there, and this little player on the front there, trying to make sure that I was on [00:23:00] task with this whole thing. And yes, I was fearful that I wasn't gonna be able to deliver it, and a couple of times I would walk back from the podium, and this thing would fall on the floor. Um, and I'd have to pick it up and keep going. Uh, but that was really, again, fear-based. I wasn't gonna just get up there and hope that I could do it right, 'cause here's the thing. I'm a bit of a perfectionist, and I'm also a control freak. So, you know, these are two fear-based things. Control, by the way, is all about fear. It's about if I know that everything's organized and safe, I'm okay. That's really what, what that is. Um, and of course, you know, the fear was definitely rampant at that stage.
[00:23:39] So I've given myself many different occasions where fear was ... And I, you notice I say I have given myself the, the occasions where fear was really and center, and yet it was called pushing through. Because I wouldn't be half the woman I w- I am today [00:24:00] if I hadn't challenged myself to meet discomfort of new experiences. And when I tell my biography to these executives and CEOs, I give them about this much, a tiny little bit. Uh, but if we really went into the whole story, you and I could be there all day, but we're not gonna do that today. So there you go.
[00:24:25] All right. So, um, and, and then I just back to the TEDx for one more round of this. So there were some moments along the journey where you were like, "Oh, maybe I shouldn't do this, and maybe this is not gonna work for me." But you, you made it all the way to the finish line. You, you, uh, did not feel great about the dress rehearsal.
[00:24:43] Um, what happened in the day between the dress rehearsal and standing on the red dot? What was it... What did you do that helped you show up and frankly nail it,
[00:24:57] I, I decided to [00:25:00] switch it off until the morning, and that was another big one. And I got up in the morning, and I was in the hotel bathroom, and I said, "Okay, give your speech." And I gave the speech perfectly. I remembered every aspect of it. And I looked in the mirror and I was like, 'You got this. You're gonna do this.' Um, but it was really a case of, know ... And the other thing was my, a group of friends came up to this TED Talk. Now I live here in Northern California, and this was in South Lake Tahoe. It's a three-and-a-half-hour drive, and I had several friends who made that drive in order to hear me speak, which was really wonderful.
[00:25:40] So the night before we all had dinner, and it was like, you know, let's just lay this one aside. And the, also the other thing was that my kids came. Now my kids had never heard me speak ever, and they, they pay no attention whatsoever to what Ma's actually doing. But they came to the TED Talk, and they [00:26:00] heard this for the first time, and was really a special occasion also.
[00:26:05] But on the day of, I did a short meditation before the, I got on stage. I was the first one up, so I, I couldn't be watching other people and get all nervous about it. And, uh, you know, then I, I just did what, what was there and, know, go into it, girl. Because again, the experience, whilst it was new, was not completely new for the numbers of times that I had pushed myself to be in places that most people would want to avoid.
[00:26:39] Absolutely. When, so when it was finished, when the, when the clock struck zero, uh, do they do a countdown? Is it a countdown or is it a
[00:26:47] no, you get, you get your 18 minutes. I actually went 18 minutes and 23 seconds
[00:26:51] Uh-oh
[00:26:51] they have a clock in, a clock in front of you. But the man who had put together my slides for the show was a man who had done a lot of TED, uh, [00:27:00] shows, and he had been introduced to me. And, uh, he said to me, "There's gonna be a clock there.
[00:27:04] Ignore it. Do not focus on, on your timing." And that was really important too, because otherwise you're like, "I gotta speed up and I gotta talk faster," and blah, blah, blah. No. He said, "Ignore the clock. Do not look at it." And, uh, the slides were very simple. I didn't have anything complicated. No lots of imagery, all that kind of stuff. I had words on the screen. The only one that I, I think was really marked was there's a scene where there's a wardrobe, um, and there's a little girl inside the wardrobe, and that of course was part of my story. And then I showed up with Nostradamus at one point. Had a bit, an image of Nostradamus on the wall. It's like, there's your fear, physical.
[00:27:52] Yeah, absolutely. And when the, and when it, and when the 18 minutes and 23 seconds expired and you [00:28:00] walked off the stage, what,
[00:28:02] did you feel?
[00:28:03] I felt elated. I was like, "Look at that, another milestone in your life."
[00:28:11] Yeah
[00:28:11] would I do it again? That's always the question I'm asked now. Would you do it again? The answer is yeah, because now I know what I'm walking into, and now I'm absolutely ready for whatever that might be, and we go from there.
[00:28:24] Yeah
[00:28:24] sorry about that little thing. My dog just walked into something in my room, so.
[00:28:28] Okay. Well, as long as the dog isn't attacking you, we're good.
[00:28:31] No, no, she's, she's far too small and lovable for
[00:28:34] oh, okay. Good, good. Um, yeah, you know, I think of, um, there's some comedians who are quite famous and quite successful financially who even to this day will do a set and bomb. I mean, just absolutely objectively bomb, and they, they bounce right back.
[00:28:57] You know? The, they, they go, "Okay, well that, that, that wasn't [00:29:00] great." And then they, they do try again. So it's all part of the, the journey
[00:29:05] And when you say that, which is what's really interesting is you can take the viewpoint I bombed, but it was the material that bombed, it wasn't me that bombed. And there's a distinction right there, and that I think is another part of the recognition of the fear patterns that might be getting in the way.
[00:29:23] Because if you bomb, well, it's because I'm no good.
[00:29:27] Right
[00:29:28] the natural place where people wanna go. But for those who keep getting back up again, uh, it's simply about, well, that didn't work, let's try something different. Um, and it's kind of been... like to say that's, that's been my life. You know, that didn't work, let's try something different.
[00:29:44] And certainly had a wealth of different experiences over a lifetime that have really pushed the envelope again and again. Like martial arts, for instance. You know, taking a black belt at 49. Started out in TaeKwonDo, [00:30:00] moved to, from Los Angeles to Paris and found my way into karate instead. and then at 63 I took up CrossFit. so, you know, you do that for 10 years and, you know, it's just pretty mind-blowing, frankly. I mean, I look back on it and I go, "Really? Oh, yeah." But that's the driver. The driver is to do more, to do better, to, to really impress yourself with what's possible
[00:30:31] What are some of the blind spots now working with CEOs and other people on, on how to leverage their f- how to recognize it, how to work with it, how to work through it, and how to leverage it, you know, how to really use it to propel yourself. What are some of the common blind spots people have about... I mean, there's the obvious blind spot that I don't recognize it as fear.
[00:30:52] But let's go a, a couple of steps deeper. What are some of the other blind spots that you're noticing out there that people [00:31:00] face?
[00:31:00] one of the exercises I give the CEOs to do is what decision are you avoiding right now? That is a very powerful question, because can apply it to almost anybody. What decision are you avoiding right now? And then you have to look at what, what's the real reason you're avoiding it? And then beyond that, what is it costing you? Because not deciding for CEOs and other executives is going to be probably one of the costliest, uh, mistakes of the year if they're not careful. Um, and they have to look at what is it they're avoiding in not making that decision. So that, that's another big one for the executives. And when I give them that exec- that, that exercise, they're frequently surprised 'cause nobody asked them that question. know, "What decision are you avoiding right now?" Yeah, let's get in touch with what that looks like. So for them, [00:32:00] and a lot of the behaviors that we're talking about, I have what's called the four professional fears. The first one is inadequacy, uh, which is self-doubts, you know, self-worth, all that good stuff.
[00:32:11] And even for a highly accomplished individual, you will find that that's, that's operating. Um, rejection, the need for approval, people-pleasing, the need for validation. Uh, then there's the, the, uh, the uncertainty, which is a big part of any business life where we're looking to guarantee and, and looking for certainty. Of course, it doesn't exist. Um, and I like to take the stoic approach, which is uncertainty is opportunity, uh, and we go from there. And then the bigger one is loss. People worry about scarcity. Am I gonna lose my business? Am I gonna lose, uh, the ability to support my family? Uh, they're already in the, the worst case scenarios and, and have no evidence for it, 'cause that's the other thing about fear. Do you have evidence for your fears? And if you don't, then [00:33:00] we need to examine them and find out what's really at stake here. So when I present that information to these, uh, high level multimillion-dollar CEOs in these groups, um, they're often surprised at their own, uh, reflection points, their own ability to recognize that this is operating in their life, because I'm giving them stuff that frequently they don't get in touch with. actually had it said, "I don't have time for self-reflection." hell, if you don't have time for self-reflection, how do you expect to grow? You
[00:33:35] Yeah. I was gonna say
[00:33:37] you thought about your behavior? When was the last time you thought about how... what's the impact you're having on your team? You probably didn't.
[00:33:45] So I'm here to kind of not force you into it, but I'm certainly here to give you the information that might help you do that better.
[00:33:53] You know, I spent a decade in the feedback business and, and feedback conversations around, you know, d- challenging, difficult [00:34:00] conversations and stuff, and that the amount of times that I heard, "I don't have time for this," um, it, I just began to see it as I'm afraid of it
[00:34:10] Yes. Yeah. And
[00:34:12] I'm, uh
[00:34:12] conversations is the one thing that comes up all the time, 'cause the people are afraid of confrontation.
[00:34:18] Right
[00:34:19] They're also afraid that if they really do have that conversation, well, they're gonna lose people, or they're, they're gonna find that, you know, it messes things up. Here's the thing I know for sure, is that whilst all this business of fear being your competitive edge, which is how I see it, it is a competitive edge, um, what I'm seeing also is that people won't make the changes because it takes too much work. It does. And change is hard. We know that. So it's better just to go along to get along.
[00:34:50] Yeah
[00:34:50] a conversation with a client yesterday, CEO, who I said to him, I said, "What are you tolerating?" And that's a bigger question for the individual. What [00:35:00] are you tolerating that you could actually improve upon?
[00:35:06] Hmm. Yeah, I mean, these power questions are really great even for like self-coaching, uh, which, you know, you can get pretty far on, not all the way, but in a pinch.
[00:35:15] Yeah
[00:35:16] I don't know, what do you think of this one? 'Cause this is somebody, uh, I knew years ago. He always used to ask, "What is it you don't wanna talk about right now?"
[00:35:26] Yeah
[00:35:27] I always thought that was such a simple and powerful question.
[00:35:31] yeah. Because if you really stop and think about it, what is, what is the topic I don't wanna bring up? That, that's almost always it, right? I mean
[00:35:40] Yeah. And it's all fear-based. You know, again, what will people think of me if I bring this up? I mean, I'm known for my directness. I, I tend to, to shoot straight, and it's not for everybody, and I'm okay with that, you know? But for those that are willing to embrace it, they find it refreshing because they're being allowed to think [00:36:00] out loud about stuff that normally they whisper or don't think or choose not to talk about, period.
[00:36:07] Yeah
[00:36:08] because there's a shame issue involved in it. There's a vulnerability involved in it. And when we can, of seeing it as a weakness but see it as a strength, then we can do something about it,
[00:36:22] Yeah.
[00:36:24] H- how do you handle the problem of... There's psychology research that shows that the more you focus on something, you give it oxygen,
[00:36:35] Mm-hmm.
[00:36:36] right? So it can easily get into the rumination cycle.
[00:36:41] I'm pointing my mind at it. Okay, I have this fear, and now I'm gonna... You al- you almost indulge it, and then it gets powerful.
[00:36:48] It gets more powerful than it was. So how do you help people n- know how to walk that line of I'm properly placing it and working with it, I'm not ruminating on it? Tell [00:37:00] us how you make sure you're on one side of that and not the other
[00:37:03] So overthinking and obsessing are very much a piece for many of the, the people that I work with. The overthinking and obsessing piece, the rumination as you call it, um, becomes the singular focus. Now what I say is, "Okay, can you take a step back from that? you get into, instead of the overthinking," which is the, the over-analysis of a situation and trying to come up with a solution, if you were just to take a step back and notice that that's what's happening?" And then decide to let it go. I talk about the 90-second rule, which is the difference between a reaction and a response. Fear is a reaction, and when we are obsessing on the reaction and obsessing on the idea that things are gonna go wrong or, or obsessing on the, the ways in which we're being impacted, [00:38:00] instead of taking the moment to, to step back. Because the prefrontal cortex is not working when we're in fear and when we're obsessing and overthinking. It's not our brains that are doing the work, it's our emotions that are doing the work. And when we can understand that that's the piece, then you just take that step back, take a moment to just acknowledge it.
[00:38:23] 'Cause one of the big things that I talk about is just, number one, notice. Notice where you're going with this, and then make a decision not to do that. Now, easier said than done. I get that. But what happens is if we can get to a point where you can say, "I see it, and I'm choosing right now not to go there." 'Cause it's about choice at the end of the day. What are you choosing to do with all that energy? it's very destructive, and God knows I've, I've been there, done that. It is incredibly destructive to yourself and to those around you. [00:39:00] And so if you start to notice that that's where I'm going, and you can put the brakes on. Because again, there's that awareness piece that's a really big part of it. Put the brakes on, and even if you just say to yourself, "I'm gonna shelve this for the time being. I'm not gonna go there." many times do people get up? And this is a question I always ask. How many times do you get up at 3:00 in the morning obsessing about something that needs to be fixed something that's going wrong? what can you do about it at 3:00 in the morning? Nothing. So why are you losing sleep over this? Yeah. you know, for instance, one of my clients said, uh, "I gotta keep my phone by, by my bed 'cause, you know, one of the locations might have some problems, in which case they're gonna call me in the middle of the night."
[00:39:51] And I said, "So when was the last time that happened?" He said, "Oh, it's been a few years." I said, "Oh yeah, and how much sleep are you losing 'cause your phone's right next to the [00:40:00] bed?" I said, "Leave your phone in the kitchen. Is there other people on the team who can take care of this?" "Oh, yeah." "Well, in that case, leave your phone in the kitchen."
[00:40:09] I wonder if the, uh, the all-access, all-hours kind of technology reality we're in... I mean, do you think, you've lived a few years, do you think that w- our technology and our lives are harder to... Are, are they more kind of... Are the conditions in which we live economically, technologically, as advanced as they are, are they creating more fear triggers for, for people?
[00:40:37] Or is it pretty much just the same thing, different circumstances?
[00:40:41] that, that we are f- we're presented with far more information now than at any time in our history. Uh, you know, there was a time when we could be oblivious. It didn't really matter because we lived in our little nucleus of whatever world we're, we're in. Um, but when you look at it now, we are bombarded on [00:41:00] all levels.
[00:41:00] I mean, why do we have such a fear-based culture in our country right now? and not just in our country, it's all over the world, frankly. But, um, I think that the digital age, because that information is so readily available, it allows for obsessing about circumstances. It allows for people to somehow identify that their lives are gonna be o- overturned or turned upside down by the events of the world. And you see this and hear this all the time. So yes, it's become a very fear-based world that we are living in, thanks to all of the ways in which we're presented with this stuff that is constantly in our, our eyeballs, frankly. And then you have to make a decision about how much do you wanna take in,
[00:41:54] Yeah
[00:41:54] that, that becomes a piece
[00:41:57] I was reflecting on this 'cause my grandfather passed [00:42:00] away recently, 95 years old, and as part of going through some of the stuff we found, or I, I don't know, I got to see, I don't know if it was found, but I got to read a series of letters that he exchanged in the, oh gosh, it must've been in the late '60s, early '70s, I think, um, with a camp in Canada.
[00:42:24] Now, these days you would go on the website or you'd call them or whatever, but back then he would type a letter, "Dear Mr. Worcestershire," I don't know, I'm just making that name up. But it was kind of like that, you know? Someone, someone the third kind of... A very official British name as far as I recall. Um, "My family and I are planning a f- summer trip to your beautiful camp around these lakes, uh, and here's..."
[00:42:50] And he just explained everything about their trip, and that they needed to secure the reservations. Okay. So he puts this letter in the mail and mails it from Oregon to [00:43:00] Canada and waits weeks, and then he gets a typewritten response in the mail. "Dear Mr. Meyers, th- we are in receipt of your letter. Thank you very much.
[00:43:12] And, uh, I'm afraid that we're gonna need this de-deposit now," da, da, da, da. And they went back and forth several times, and I think about... And then they ended up booking it. He sent him the money. I don't know if it was cash or how he did that, but there was one letter where it says, "See the deposit in here."
[00:43:29] But the real point of this was is that nowadays I'm on my phone going, "Hang on, Jacqueline. I'm getting a text from this thing. I gotta check it, um, see if they approved my application for the reservation, 'cause if I don't get this my, my daughter's school won't get the thing they need to..." And we're just, we're just inundated with immediate signal
[00:43:49] Yes
[00:43:50] and it's, it's like wildfires all over the place.
[00:43:53] And I, I find it very hard to manage myself, and I, I bet I'm not alone
[00:43:59] You're not [00:44:00] alone. And I think, you know, I mean, even for myself, I know that I'm addicted to looking at the phone, and I often th- th- you know, it crosses my mind, just turn it off and put it away, you know, because it's so easy just to pick it up to see what's going on. Um, and the need to respond instantly has become the norm.
[00:44:17] And so if you don't get a response immediately, what's wrong with you? You know, that, that becomes the piece right there. I mean, I'm old enough to remember airmail letters that were just this flimsy little piece of thing that you would write on, and then you would fold it all up. I'm amazed that it ever got anywhere because it was just such a thin piece of, of paper. But, uh, you know, the, the... you look back on this, and I'm old enough to know that, you know, from the '50s to now, I mean, in my lifetime, it's, it's extraordinary. But I think, again, where's your attention? This is really what I speak to in the fear conversation, too. Where is your attention? [00:45:00] Is your attention towards the, the and, and uplifting side of your life, or is your attention on all the bullshit that is, is surrounding you and that you're buying into? again, the awareness piece of noticing that is what's going on. So, and then there's the, the peer pressure that we feel as well regards this. I mean, you and I are on LinkedIn. That thing is a complete, like all social media, in my opinion, is a huge suck attention what does it add up to?
[00:45:39] What are we getting from this? My opinion is not very much, frankly.
[00:45:45] Yeah
[00:45:45] that, you know, we just need to be focused on in front of us more often
[00:45:51] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, genuine human connection.
[00:45:55] Yes
[00:45:56] and while you can make it on [00:46:00] LinkedIn, you ha- what I'm learning is that, um, the distinction between being a content creator and what the rest of us do, 'cause 99% of the people are not content creators. So the content creators are setting this model for, and it's all g- fancy stuff, and they're, and they get a lot of reach because they're feeding that with the oxygen that it wants.
[00:46:24] But most people aren't that, so you're judging yourself by a standard that's completely off, for one thing.
[00:46:29] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah
[00:46:31] yeah, and going through a feed. All right, listen, we don't have much time left, so I wanna get a little perspective on or some information from you for our l- for our viewers and listeners. Uh, how do you work with people, and then, of course, where do they go to find out about you and connect with you?
[00:46:48] you know, I'm not a stranger on the internet at
[00:46:51] Are you? Are you, are you out there on that inter- interweb? Are you?
[00:46:56] you go. You know, that, that world wide web, I'm, [00:47:00] I'm out there.
[00:47:00] Just look for the red. Look for the red color, and you'll find Jacqueline. But no, yeah, how do you... What are the kinds of ways that you are finding are effective to help people with, you know, turning, turning f- their fear into s- into, uh, success
[00:47:19] the obvious piece of course is, you know, I do executive coaching, so, you know, I'm working one-on-one with, with high-level individuals. That's, that's number one. Um, and at the same time, I bring them into the programs that I've created. I have a lot of programs, uh, on my website, fearintelligence.co. Uh, there's, there's a tremendous amount.
[00:47:38] And I also do something called an executive assessment, where I actually show them in four categories how fear is showing up in their organization, and, uh, that gives them some input as to what's next. So, uh, that's really how I choose to work with people at this point in time. And I'm all about, you [00:48:00] know, bigger stage too, you know, because this is a message I feel very strongly the world needs to understand.
[00:48:06] As a good friend of mine said to me, "You're kind of like the Brene Brown of fear." And I said, "Yeah, but I don't have her audience yet."
[00:48:16] That's right. That's right. Well, you gotta build your stage. That's the new reality is we build our stage. We don't get, we don't get invited onto it, we build it. Uh, so it sounds like, you know, you do the, the traditional, you know, one-on-one, you know, corporate... Or, or sorry, executive coaching packages. But I've, I've known you to do group journeys as well.
[00:48:37] Like if, if you- it's a leader and their team, and they wanna have a experience for the whole team, you've got that offering as well, yes?
[00:48:44] just, I just got off doing two of those workshops with teams who their CEOs had previously heard me speak and said, "Come and work with my teams." And so we're kind of moving along on that journey. But that's, that's another big one, 'cause, you know, I can [00:49:00] teach these CEOs about fear intelligence, but I'm very clear, if you don't take this to your, your team and your organization, then it's just more shelf help, and I'm, I'm not there for shelf help.
[00:49:12] Yeah
[00:49:12] that's, that's a big one. So the workshops are important, absolutely. Uh, but I think on the individual level, you know, helping the individuals understand it and then take, take the next step. But, um, you know, there's more books in me. I'm ready for, for what's next. Um, and I'm gonna continue the fear intelligence journey probably until I die, to be perfectly honest.
[00:49:36] And who the hell knows? At my age, could be tomorrow, could be 10 years, could be 20 years. I have a feeling I'm gonna be around for quite a while yet.
[00:49:46] I do too. I do too. Yeah, I mean, the work, the work continues. The need will not go away, so, uh... And then, of course, I'm sure you do talks. If someone wants you to speak to their team or speak to their company, you're, you're, you're game for that, of course.[00:50:00]
[00:50:00] Send the private jet
[00:50:02] Yep, any- anything that will, uh, get me in front of, of an audience, I'm 100% there.
[00:50:08] Yeah, absolutely. Fantastic. So ch- and she, despite, uh, concerns about LinkedIn that I also share, you're on LinkedIn, Jacqueline Wales on LinkedIn. We'll put everything in the show notes. Fearintelligence.co, not .com, .co, uh, is the website. Any other platforms or pl- places they need to go to see your work?
[00:50:30] I've got some things on there, but I have to be honest, I haven't done a whole lot of stuff on there recently. So no, I would say, as I said, social media and I, I have a lot of impatience with it. I don't have any real room to spend hours trying to figure out how to
[00:50:45] Sure.
[00:50:46] And you also do a daily, uh, email, do you not?
[00:50:49] I do.
[00:50:49] I call it Daily Insights, and, uh, it's been running now for about 10 months, I think. And, uh, 10 months of daily emails, [00:51:00] that's a lot of material.
[00:51:01] Yeah
[00:51:02] And, uh, it's gotta go in a book some point.
[00:51:05] think it, I think it probably should. So if someone wants to be on your email list, what do they do?
[00:51:09] Again, they can go to the website fearintelligence.co, and there's a, a little piece in there to sign up for the daily insights and
[00:51:17] Fantastic. All right
[00:51:19] the Fear Intelligence Assessment and see where you stand with it
[00:51:22] All right. So let's close out with this, Jacqueline. Someone's out there watching and they're like, "I know I'm being driven. The tail is wagging the dog, but I'm afraid to look at it." What's, what's your message to that person?
[00:51:39] you know, the, the tail is wagging the dog, and you're, you're totally keeping yourself in that limited position of, of having a dream but being afraid to take the step into it because... And then you put your own thing in there, inadequacy, rejection, loss, blah, blah, blah. [00:52:00] Um, and take a hard look at that.
[00:52:02] But here's what I would say. There was a book written many years ago, Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway, I would say analyze the fear, notice the fear, and do it anyway. Because if you have all these unfulfilled dreams that are sitting on the shelf, at the end of your days, you will just wish you had pushed yourself a little bit harder. you can do it, because I've done it, and I'm not unique. I know everybody else can do it, too. But you've gotta have the courage follow through on your belief you're capable, end of story
[00:52:44] Can't finish it better than that. Jacqueline, thank you so much for joining me today on the Bigger Stage
[00:52:49] Truly a pleasure, Matt, always. Thank you,
[00:52:51] All