Multithreaded Income Podcast

In this episode, host Kevin Griffin catches up with his old friend and special guest, Jamie Wright. They discuss their accidental meeting at THAT Conference in Austin and Jamie's Kalahari World Tour. The conversation then shifts to Jamie's experience and philosophy around creating multithreaded income through freelancing, consulting, and side projects. Jamie shares his journey from being employed to embracing freelancing since 2006, exploring employability challenges, venturing into SaaS, and dabbling in creating chatbots and productivity tools. He emphasizes the importance of working on projects to generate income. He reflects on the challenges of balancing consulting work with pursuing product development. Jamie recounts his experience acquiring and reviving the Kyber Slack app in his SaaS endeavors, discussing the transition and his strategy moving forward. Additionally, they touch on Jamie's past projects, failures, and successes in software development and the importance of freedom and enjoyment in work. The conversation concludes with insights on the value of trying new things, ignoring conventional 'expert' advice, and finding joy in the journey of creation.

Follow Jamie on Twitter:
Follow Jamie on LinkedIn:

Creators & Guests

Kevin Griffin
♥ Family. Microsoft MVP. Consultant/Trainer focused on #dotnet #aspnetcore #web #azure. VP at @dotnetfdn @revconf Mastodon: - He/Him
👨🏻‍💻 Professional nerd. Building one way to have fewer meetings and more discussions.Compliance will be rewarded with hats.

What is Multithreaded Income Podcast?

In the "Multithreaded Income Podcast," host Kevin Griffin navigates the nuanced landscape of generating multiple income streams as a technologist. Aimed at professionals who wish to diversify their revenue while maintaining a focus on technology, this podcast dives deep into unconventional strategies, untapped opportunities, and actionable advice.

It's time for the multi
threaded income podcast.

We're like insurance for a
turbulent tech landscape.

I'm your host, Kevin Griffin.

Join me as I chat with people all around
the industry who are using their skills

to build multiple threads of income.

Let us support you in your career
by joining our discord at mti.

to slash discord.

Now let's get started.

Kevin Griffin: Hey everyone,
welcome back to the show.

I'm joined by my very good friend
and special guest, Jamie Wright.

How are you today, Jamie?

Jamie Wright: Good.

Good, Kevin.

How are you been?

Kevin Griffin: I am hanging in there.

Jamie, I think last time we saw each
other was at that conference, Austin,

Jamie Wright: Yeah.

Kevin Griffin: I don't think I
was expecting you to be there.

Uh, cause I looked at the schedule.

I don't, didn't remember seeing your name.

And then it was the evening
of the big attendee barbecue.

I was just casually walking
back to my room and I, I always

like to walk past the bar.

A lot of these conferences we do,
you always walk past the bar cause

you never know who you're going to

Jamie Wright: I stop usually at the bar.

But yes, I

Kevin Griffin: stop at the bar and you
never know who you're going to see.

And I'm walking past the bar and the
Kalahari in Austin has a very nice bar.

Uh, just it's centrally
located, really nice.

Jamie Wright: Yeah.

Kevin Griffin: And.

I'm walking past and there's Jamie
Wright just sitting there working.

I think you're working on
your talk for the next day

Jamie Wright: Yep.


Yep, probably.

That sounds like a conference
Jamie thing to do Yeah, that was

uh, that was a fun conference.

That was my actual um, I completed
my Kalahari world tours Have you

been on the Kalahari world tour?


Kevin Griffin: all of them
except, uh, Wisconsin.

Jamie Wright: you submit
to that conference in

Kevin Griffin: I didn't because I make
the joke with Clark that he never.

Talks to me before you
schedule these things.

So it's always on a
conflicting week for me.

Jamie Wright: He helped me visit
every Kalahari in the United States.

So I'm sure there's a lot of software
developers that have done that.

But, uh,

Kevin Griffin: So this is a side
note, but they're opening the Kalahari

in Virginia in 2025, I think it's
supposed to when it's open and

Jamie Wright: about this.

I was like, Oh, you guys are
trying to stay ahead of me.

All right.

You guys are trying to open up more.

So I don't have, so I have more to go to.

Kevin Griffin: the problem is
everyone I've talked to says, Kevin.

You are the obvious person in Virginia
to run the conference at the Kalahari.

I said, that sounds great, but
I've seen the budgets of all the

Kalahari conferences, and there's
no way you're going to convince me

to try to do a Kalahari conference

Jamie Wright: Maybe

Kevin Griffin: in the middle of Virginia.

Jamie Wright: maybe Clark can try
to convince you because yeah, that,

that would, that looks scary as hell.


Those budgets and that amount of money.

Kevin Griffin: I'll maybe I'll
just lean on Clark and use

the, that conference name.

And he can just have the
Kalahari, Virginia, and I'll

help with some local logistics

Jamie Wright: There you go.

Kevin Griffin: and it's not even local.

It's three hours away from me.

So it's not as local as
I would like it to be.

Jamie, that's not why we're
here to talk about conferences.

We want to talk about your.

Exploration into what we
call multi threaded income.

Cause as long as I've known you,
you've always worked for yourself.

You've always worked on side projects.

You always have something going on.

And I always like to say you
have something going on with

the intent of making money.

And, uh, but let's, I guess
you're supposed to start

with what you're doing now.

Jamie Wright: Yeah, um, yeah,
it's kind of changed recently.

Um, so yeah, I've been, um, a consultant,
basically a freelancer at various stages.

Um, had employees, I used subcontractors,
um, and now I'm just kind of back

to being myself, being myself,
which I kind of like the most.

Um, a lot less stressful.

Um, yeah, so I've been a, I've been
a freelance consultant since, dude,

like 2006, that's how old I am.

Uh, so like right out of college
I was, um, you know, I worked in

various, uh, jobs that were, that
had software departments, software

development departments, um, yeah,
and I just, I've always kind of.

Not been employable, I think.

Um, and it's just my personality.

It's just like, I just get so
annoyed with what I view are bad

decisions and they could be bad
decisions or not bad decisions.

It's just sometimes the things
that people do with their

businesses just really annoys me.

Um, so the fact where I knew I, I
wouldn't be able to stay there, you know?

Um, yeah, that's just,
that's just my personality.

So I've kind of just
always done my own thing.

Kevin Griffin: When I left my, my real
job in air quotes, I left because I was a

bad, I was a bad employee for the company.

It wasn't a bad company.

It was, I was a bad employee for the
company because I was moving faster

than the rest of the team and the
how fast management wanted to move.

Jamie Wright: know,

Kevin Griffin: And wasn't
that it was necessarily bad.

It was just bad for me because
I continuously got frustrated.

It's like, why aren't we
trying this new thing?

Why aren't we going to this event?

Why aren't we looking at X and Y and just
no one else wanted to move at that speed.

So I had to leave.

Jamie Wright: That's exactly like those
things kind of build up over time.

And for me, it's just
a short amount of time.

Like that could be like two months
and like, I'm just like, okay, I'm,

I'm over this, not, not meaning like.

Not saying like, Hey, I'm over
this and I can't help this company.

I'm just saying like, this kind of
reinforces my belief of why I can't

be employable employable because I go
to all these, I've been at every size

of company imaginable as a contractor.

Um, and I do admit that's a different
kind of, uh, relationship than

being an employee, so there may be.

Some other stuff that I don't know about,
um, around like sort of that teamwork

and, um, those kinds of relationships.

But, um, yeah, I just, I just
know I'm just not employable.

I also feel like I need to own in
order for me to be very engaged.

I have to have, um, a lot of, uh, risk,
not risk, but I have to have a lot

of say in the thing that's produced.

It's just.

I just want to have that ownership so
that I can control with the outcome

a little more, um, and just, you
don't have that a lot of companies.

So, so I've been kind of

Kevin Griffin: along those lines,
what would you say if you looked

at all the different clients
that you've had over the years?

What are the traits of the really
good clients and what are the

traits of the very bad clients?

Jamie Wright: for me.

Um, I love working with small
teams that don't have a lot.

Of process software development crap
around the actual job of getting work out.

Um, those are the best clients for me.

So my favorite client, actually the one
that, uh, we'll talk about with Kyber.

Um, that was probably one
of my favorite clients.

I was with them for like three
years and it was because, you

know, I was one of two developers.

There was three people as a product owner.

Um, kind of the owner of
the company and then us too.

And we would, like you said, we
would just move at super fast pace.

Um, I had a lot of say in the, uh, the
design, the, the, the product, the UX.

Um, and it was just great.

You know, it worked out great.

Um, yeah, that's kind of my favorite.

The, the traits of kind of the companies
that I don't like to work with are the

companies that have like a lot of process.

Um, know, of getting just code or, or
the end product out to customers and

also not being able to, a lot of those
companies, you don't get to interact

with the customers themselves, which
I find not that satisfying, right?

I like to hear from the users, um,
themselves, um, not only, you know,

I like to hear the good and the bad
because it, it helps me become better.

Product person and it also
makes for a better product.


Kevin Griffin: Do you have any tips
for trying to figure out if a client

is going to be good or bad before you
enter into that relationship or is it?

More of a, you see what
you get once you get in.

Jamie Wright: yeah, you can, I just
from years of experience, I can tell

pretty much if I'm going to, um,
work well with this client or not.

Um, and that's taken some time, but
a lot of, a lot of the red flags,

you know, things that I don't like
process and you can tell just by

their writing and their emails.

And, um, their responses and the things
that they have to get you to jump through.

Um, so one of my, like another company
that I love working with is Test Double.

I work a lot with them as a subcontractor
and just, they are what they say they are.

Like they let you do your work.

You're very autonomous.

They count on you to
just get the job done.

They don't treat you like a child.

And, um, and you can tell that that I
could tell that that was going to happen

just based on the emails that were sent
before the project happened, you know,

like, Hey, don't worry about this.

Here's this, you know, and and things
were thought of and, um, things were were

made so that you could get up and running,
you know, first day and contribute.

So those are kind of the companies I like.

And, uh, those are the people
and the companies I steer away

from are the companies that.

All right.

You can tell there's a lot of process.

Um, and, uh, and they may not.

They may not know the person
that you're working with.

A lot of times, um, if I have a direct
relationship with the person I'm working

with, like I met them on a conference, um,
I'm friends with them in the community,

those relationships work out a ton
better than somebody that, you know, you

were introduced to on this side of the
company over here, like those types of

relationships, those people don't trust
you, which, you know, they don't know you.

Um, and so, Yeah.

So there, when there's a lot, when
there's a lack of trust, um, that can

also, um, be an indication of probably
you don't wanna work with that company.

Um, yeah.

And then good, a good way to build up
trust, actually, I found out through the

years, is just put yourself out there.

Um, whether it's videos,
podcasting, writing.

Just showing your views and
showing that you've been doing

this for, you know, a long time.

Kevin Griffin: Yeah,

Jamie Wright: It really goes a long way
in, um, in gaining trust and having a good

working relationship with those customers.

Kevin Griffin: I've coached a number
of people getting started with

consulting and I'll build on that topic.

A lot of you need to present yourself not
as the person just coming in to do a job.

You need to present
yourself as the expert.

You are the experienced one.

You're going to lead how this
entire engagement is going to go.

Don't let the other
person do the guessing.

Because all they really want to
do is pay you and get a result.

You need to come in and say, I am
the, I am the expert, put the hat on.

And it's all about how you present
yourself through just minor interactions.

Um, and it helps so much and you
can usually tell it's a red flag.

If someone tries to override that
with their own processes, it's

like, okay, this might not work
out the way that I want it to.

Jamie Wright: A hundred percent.

I tell a lot of I've talked to a lot
of clients over the, over the years.

Like, Hey, you're, you're overpaying me.

Like you're, if you just want me to grab
tickets and do the stuff and not raise

questions about architecture or UX or
product or features, um, like you're just

overpaying me, just pay, pay somebody else
that, um, doesn't have that experience.

Um, Or doesn't want to
share that experience.

So, um, yeah.

Kevin Griffin: So let's go a little
bit more into who you're working

for now, because I think there
was a fun story to how you got to

what you're doing at the moment.

Jamie Wright: Yeah.

So the other thing that we haven't
really gotten into is over the

years, I've, um, dabbled into SAS.

Um, and I use the word dabble, um,
on purpose because, uh, I've never

really fully committed, uh, to
kind of, Going all in on, on SAS.

Um, and so over the years
I've kind of dabbled in it.

I've created several products, um,
over the years, uh, and I guess

around 2015 or something like that.

I just kind of fell in love
with like chatbots in chat.

Um, this was kind of before Slack,
but like, uh, remember HueBot

Kevin Griffin: Mm hmm.

Jamie Wright: Campfire.

That's kind of where I got my
start, um, creating bots, chatbots.

And I just kind of fell in love with that.


I actually started working
on my own chat platform.

Uh, I called it Funnel Cake.

Uh, and, um, that's when I heard of
this little, uh, startup called Slack.

And they were doing very similar
stuff to what I was doing.

Like, my idea was To have a spot
where you could add like apps and bots

alongside your chat, which was kind
of like an afterthought in campfire.

And obviously it was like
a forethought in Slack.

And so, um, after I found out
about Slack, I've created a, a

bot for Slack that allows you to
do standup meetings inside Slack.

And that was like the first
that did that, by the way.

Um, And, uh, anyway, got invited out to
the Slack, um, launch event when they did

their app store really kind of fell in
love with the community people at Slack.

Um, who are mostly no longer
there, but, um, just kind of

fell in love with that community.

And so I've kind of, since
then just kind of been.

All in on the chat bot Slack bot sort
of, um, uh, work, um, and developed,

like I said, tattoo, and then a client
came along, um, and I described them.

It was called Kyber, but I described
them as kind of base camp inside

Slack and creates messages, tasks,
um, meetings inside Slack and kind of

coordinate all your work inside Slack.

Like there's nothing outside.

Of Slack.

It's like all, which is kind
of unique in the Slack world.

Like a lot of them are services, their
web services, they have like a Slack.

So anyway, and like I mentioned,
that was like a really good client.

We worked together for three years.

Um, and they were a
venture backed company.

And, uh, so they were pouring
in like millions into this.

Project product.

And they were getting like, they
were getting up to like 40 K

50 K a month in subscriptions.

And that was, that's a lot, you
know, for me, for one individual,

but for a venture backed company,
it didn't really make sense.

Um, they were trying a
lot of different things.

Um, and, and then, you know, they, one
of the developers left, went to Amazon.

And so I was like the only developer
on the thing for maybe a year.

And I could kind of slowly see
the interest weighing from them.

Um, and anyway, last year, yeah, 2023,
they, they told me at the beginning

of the year, they're, they're like,
Hey, we're going to stop development.

It's not really moving the needle.

Um, and I said, okay.

And then, you know,
went on to other things.

And then about six months
later, they reached back out

and said, Hey, do you want this?

Um, and I was, uh, and at first I was
like, nah, I don't, you know, cause I

got my own tattoo thing going on here.

And then I started thinking about it.

I was like, wait, what,
what am I doing here?

Um, they have like all these
customers, um, they kind of made

their relationship with Slack a
little sour, which caused some issues.

Um, so all of these, I noticed like,
these are kind of good issues to have.

Cause these are fixable
things that I can fix.

And so, long story long, I, I took
over the application at the beginning

of the year, um, and I just got, it's
kind of changed my direction of where

I was going and, and all that kind
of stuff, but that's kind of where,

where I'm at right now with kind of the
SAS, uh, side of, side of my business.

Kevin Griffin: hmm.

So was it a full takeover?

You just took over the entire product.

Jamie Wright: No.

So the way we worked it out is.

I didn't buy it or anything like that.

Um, I just got basically 33%.

So there's the, there's the product
owner, which, you know, his name's Paolo.

He's Italian.

He's amazing.

Um, and, uh, but, um, yeah, so
between those three and then we

have, um, levels of, uh, revenue.

So once I get to certain revenue,
my percentage goes up, their

percentage goes down, right?

And it goes to like, you know,
whatever those, and we figured it

out, you know, it's up to like, you
know, I own 70 percent or something.

And then we're like, well, then
we'll figure something else out.

You know, like there's a lot of
opportunities, like, do I sell it?

Can I, you know, so, um, yeah, there
was a lot of opportunity there.

Um, you know, I knew I could get
the revenue back up to where it was.

I'm pretty.

Um, I can fix the relationship with Slack.

I know a lot of people there and, um,
and they have a lot of customers, like

hundreds of thousands of customers.

So, uh, not active customers,
but you know, I have a

database of former customers.

So, um, yeah, my plan is now is to
merge both my products, Tetsu and Kyber.

I hate to name Kyber, so I'm renaming
everything to Tetsu and, um, kind of

going from there now I've got kind
of a roadmap and a plan and, um,

kind of a marketing plan as well.

So, yeah, I'm kind of going all in
on the SaaS side of things this year.

I decided,

Kevin Griffin: And you had said
before that you dabbled in SAS and.

Was there any particular reason that
you just didn't really commit to it?

Jamie Wright: um, money.

Kevin Griffin: Money?

Jamie Wright: Yeah.

I mean, consulting is so easy to
like, you know, you're like, Oh,

I'm going to go all in on this.

Um, and then somebody shows up, Hey,
here, can you do this one little thing?

Here's 10, 000.

And I'm like, Oh, sure.

I'll do this for this week.

And then, Oh, I didn't do anything
on my product for this week.

You know?

So that happens just all the time.

And, um, it's, it's happened
this year several times already.


Kevin Griffin: Yeah.

Jamie Wright: and so I'm just really
trying to like say no to the temptation.

The other thing I was doing that I've
kind of stopped doing because my client

has become super busy, but I would
only work four days out of the week.

So Monday through Thursday,
I work for client on Friday.

Um, I would take off that worked
okay, but there's just such a

large gap in between those windows.

Of time that, uh, I just wasn't
making any meaningful progress.

So my plan this time, um, starting in
May is to just actually take a week off,

um, and totally focus on the product.

And then kind of move up from there.

Um, I'm, I'm a real big believer of
not like throwing out everything,

um, to, you know, work on your
thing that you hope makes money.

Um, like that's just so much
more stressful and not as fun.

And, um, that's the other thing I started
doing is like just enjoying the journey.

Like, like.

Yeah, just enjoying the journey, um,
enjoying the actual craft of creating

the software, um, not listening to, you
know, all, um, I've been treating software

a little more like art, if that makes
a lot less, like, here's a formula that

you can get 100, 000 users, here's seven
tips that you can use to, you know, um,

You know, I've, I've listened to all
those communities and all those things.

And I just, it, it makes, it
makes it feel like a job and I

don't, I don't want a job, man.

I want to,

Kevin Griffin: It is a job.

And those, those are the same people that
will say you only need to spend 20 minutes

a day doing this little bit of marketing
and you can have these massive results.

But what they don't tell you is, well,
I was spending weeks and weeks and

weeks and just devoted to the marketing
aspect of everything that I was doing.

And now I can do it in 20 minutes a day.


We're going to forget about the
months of effort I had to put into

building the system so I could
eventually do it for 20 minutes a day.

Jamie Wright: Yeah.

And yeah.

And also like the marketing tactics
that, that they, a lot of the experts

will, will talk about is like stuff.

I just don't want to do, I don't want
to, you know, call people and, uh, just.

Asking to use.

My software is just not me.

I don't want to do that.

So I've just been thinking of
other kind of unique ways to

market and, um, things like that.

It's a little tough with the product
I have because it's such a broad

Kevin Griffin: Yeah.

Jamie Wright: range of
people that can use it.

It's kind of hard to like focus
in on a niche and stuff like that.

So yeah,

Kevin Griffin: was going to ask is, so
if you have a broad usage, are you trying

to go out after other industries that it
would be useful for, or are you going to,

like, I always try to stick to my lane
of software development cause I know the

people there, I know the industry, but.

If I had a product that would
work well for doctors or lawyers

or for plumbers, or, you know, I
have no idea how to go into those

industries and try to pitch a product.

Jamie Wright: I don't either.

Um, there's two things with that.

A, I, I personally am going to concentrate
on software developers because like

you mentioned, that's who I know.

Marketing could include going to
talks and talking about your product.

Those are developers, right?

Those are things that I love doing anyway.

Um, the other thing that I did is I'm
really good friends with a salesman.

And I know that sounds salesy and
crappy, but the real good salespeople.

Just want to solve problems for
customers and my, my, my buddy's been

working in the communication industry
kind of working, um, alongside all

these different companies, just, you
know, so he's got all these contacts

and all these companies that use.

Productivity software, and he has
some really good ideas on like

packaging the software so that
some of these companies will use.

Um, and so I'm kind of going to
lean on him to kind of do the

enterprise type sales stuff.

Um, he's really excited about it.

So that's, that's the other kind
of marketing channel I'm going.

It's kind of offsetting all that crap
that I don't want to do on to somebody.

That A, knows what the hell they're doing.

Um, not slimy, represents
the product well.

Um, and can just, he knows
how to talk to people, man.

He knows how to like, I don't
know how to talk to people.

I'm a software developer.

It spends.

90 percent of my time in my basement.

So I don't know how to talk to people.

Kevin Griffin: And that's why I
hear from a lot of folks that I've

interviewed that are in the SAS market.

And if it's just a solo gig for them,
I'll ask, okay, if you were going to hire

another person, what would you hire for?

I would say 90 percent
of the time, it's the.

The salesperson or I'll
find the marketing person.

I need to find the person who can
do this particular part of the job.

That's critical, but it's not
something that I have a skillset for.

So I'm willing to pay someone
with this skillset to build the

business from, from that aspect.

I think that makes a ton of sense.

Jamie Wright: also like the salesman
kind of hire is a really easy

hire to, in my opinion, like you
don't need to pay them a salary.

You don't need to bring them on full time.

They usually have their own stuff
that they're doing and selling.

And, um, And they work off commission.

So it's kind of a win
win for, for everybody.

Kevin Griffin: Well, let's look back at.

Some of your sass you've dabbled in what,
what projects have you worked on before?

Maybe some notable, let's just, I
don't like to use the word failures,

but the things that didn't work
out that you were excited about,

but eventually just had to kill.

Jamie Wright: Yeah.

The other thing, um, this is probably
not the best thing to say on a income

podcast, um, but I really don't do it.

Like I don't set out
to do it for the money.

Um, I mostly set out to
do it for the experience.

So most of the products that I
build and do are either cause

I want to learn something,
whether it's code or language or.

Architecture or something or
marketing or the industry.

Those are kind of how, why
I get into the products.

The reason I'm pursuing the SAS
angle is to allow myself to give

myself more freedom of time.

So, cause.

I don't want to create
software my whole life.

Like it's don't want to do it.

I have other interests.

Uh, I want to create physical products.

There's things I want to, you know,
I want to open store, like physical

stores, like coffee shops, like
there's just stuff I want to do.

That's outside of, of, uh, software.

So the reason I want to go into SAS is
because I'm not selling my time for money.



Um, and so over the, that's just
some background on your, your failure

statement is yeah, they monetarily.


They, the, the reason they were shut
down is because I was spending money

on them and they were not making
money, but, um, yeah, the, my first

product actually that I released
was, um, Something called morale,

which allowed you to create to dues.

This was like in, this was like
in 2007, six, this was in 2006.

Cause I was just learning Ruby
and this is how I learned.

Ruby was creating this application.

Um, yeah.

And it just allowed you to create a to
dues inside, uh, using natural language.

So you could say like, you know, do
tomorrow, you know, and do an at sign.

Um, it was actually.

Probably before a lot of, it was,
I always say this is kind of before

it's time because, um, there's a
lot of things that came on out after

that, that that kind of worked, but
it allowed you like inside code.

You could write to do and
write your to do statement.

It would actually go into your
task list and create a task

for you and stuff like that.

Um, that just failed just
because of marketing.


I never, you know, I didn't
know how to market stuff.

I just knew how to build stuff.

Um, uh, the, the, the chat chat, uh,
application I talked about earlier.

There's another, uh, slack
killed that 1 for me.

What are some other ones?

Um, oh, yeah, several,
several other chatbots.

Um, that I'm probably still may do.

Um, my biggest, my biggest
regret is probably my Pomodoro

app, though, that I made.

Um, I just spent like
3 years on that thing.

And I was just having a blast doing it.

Like, yeah, Just creating
the thing I was creating.

It was a blast.

Um, and I was creating like a mobile
app, Alexa app, uh, and a web app all

at the same time, horrible idea, stupid
idea for one person to do all that.

Um, but it was a lot of fun.

Um, that was chronic.

That that still may become a
product someday, but you know, yeah,

Kevin Griffin: You get in with
the productivity gurus and.

You, you sell the them and
then they resell for you.

And then all of a sudden you have a
five figure a month product and then

eventually a six figure a month product.

And then I used,

Jamie Wright: actually
an idea for for that.

The team behind or an app that came
out that's very similar to what

chronic was going to be is centered.

If you've ever used centered, it's like
a Pomodoro app, but it also allows you

to, like, connect with other people.

So you can kind of co work together.

So you kind of, you know,
Keep each other on task.

So that was a big part of, of chronic.

So it still might be a problem.

Kevin Griffin: I use a flow club.


Jamie Wright: Oh, club.

Exactly the same.



Kevin Griffin: that very
much keeps me on task and.

You have to come back and have to report
to the people that you're flowing with.

And it's always a
different group of people.

And that kind of makes it exciting.

I've met a couple of regulars who
I'm in different flows with, and it

helps me get stuff done tremendously.

Jamie Wright: Yeah, that's cool.

I also liked the fact
that they call them flows.

That's pretty cool.

Um, yeah, so that was a, that was
a product that, uh, you know, I'm a

huge user of Pomodoro like technique.

I need to work that way.

Um, and so, yeah, I just want
to create a tool for myself.

Um, and I just, I just spent
way too much time on it.


Kevin Griffin: Have you done anything
other than products and consulting?

Have you

Jamie Wright: yeah.

Kevin Griffin: out in other realms?

Jamie Wright: Yeah, I've done, um, so
part of the, uh, part of my consulting,

um, back in like 2016, 2017, I started
offering, um, training, um, actually

it was before that because it was when,
about 2015, um, yeah, I started offering

training classes, workshops, I did in
person workshops, um, And did an online

workshop and that was going to be, um, a
focus for a little while, um, yeah, that

was really, it was really successful.

We held, um, one in person workshop,
um, in Toledo and there was about

30, 30 people that came to that.

It was me and, uh, my
other employee at the time.

And we created the whole Rails workshop.

We created a whole new app, um.

And people loved it.

Actually, several people got
jobs from that workshop, um,

which was really exciting.

And we tried to expand
that into other areas.

We liked the in person, uh,
you know, in person workshop.

Um, it felt like People grasped it and
got it a lot more and were more, uh,

into it rather than the online ones.

Um, and so we tried to go into other
cities like Ann Arbor and, um, Detroit

and Columbus, but not knowing the
local community there, it was really

hard to gain any sort of traction.

So, um, but we did do like day, uh,
some day ones, like one day ones.

Uh, it was, it was really, really good.

I like that first class we made like
10 grand, I think, off of it, which

was like, I mean, if we would have
repeated it, that would have been

a really nice side of the business.

Um, we just never found
a way to market that.

So, um,

Kevin Griffin: I was in the
same camp a long time ago.

I tried it probably
around the same timeframe.

I tried to do in person training and
you go into it with the ambition of,

all right, I'm going to create this
reusable workshop and I'll go in one,

two, three days, I'll deliver it, get
in, get out, collect the cash, rinse,

repeat, and then you discover it is really
hard this market to sell a workshop.

To a different group of people every
couple of weeks, because ideally you would

do one, do one like every two, three weeks
and maybe in a different city, like travel

around, keep your expenses super low, but
then you just make bank on the money that

comes in and it's just so hard to do.

I had to get out of it just because I
couldn't devote the time to the marketing.


Jamie Wright: the marketing was, um,
the issue, uh, the, the other thing

though that we did that I thought
was I'm, I'm really against like

these, these accelerator programs,
um, I just think it only serves a

few like privileged group of people.

There's only a few, you know,
group of people that can take.

Entire months off of work
without childcare and not get

paid and be able to afford that.

Um, and so we wanted to take a different
approach where we did it at night.

Uh, we did it, um, you know,
over a course of like four weeks,

like two nights a week, I think.

And I love that it was cheap.

I mean, it was like 800 bucks
a person, something like that.

So it was pretty cheap, but they
were learning like a pretty.

Valuable resource.

So, um, I think it.

Oh, the other thing that we did, though,
too, was we would market to companies,

which that is where actually more of
the money is, is when you could get

a whole company of 20 developers.

Learning some new technology, a
company will pay Buku bucks for that.

So we had, we were in talks.

We were close to like, um, one
workshop for 25 K for a week.

Um, not even a week, I
think it was four days.

Um, and, uh, yeah, it's just, we, there's
just so many hoops when you go to those

companies, some of those companies.

Like so many people that
need to sign checks.

It's, it was just, it wasn't worth,
I would need like a full time person

to, to kind of sell that stuff.

So, so yeah, we dabbled in, in training.

I still do training, you know, at, at,
uh, conferences and things like that.

Um, so I still love training.

I still love training people.

I, I have an intern, uh, that I work with.

So, um, yeah.

Uh, so got into some
training a little bit.

And then the other thing, the thing
that actually allowed the training

to happen in Toledo was we opened
a co working space, um, me and two

other people opened Toledo's first
co working space in 2013, 2012.

Kevin Griffin: Okay.


Jamie Wright: there was three of us, we
started it, and then we signed a lease,

um, downtown Toledo for three years.

We're like one of the only buildings,
buildings are like new occupants

in this one area, and now this
area in downtown is like thriving.

It's pretty cool.

Um, not that saying that we did
that, but I'm just saying like.

It was cool to kind of be part
of that, um, downtown stuff.

Um, yeah, so the, the lease
was signed for three years.

And so I think in 2018,
yeah, no, 20, 2015, geez.

Yeah, 2015, 2016, I kind of got
out, found a new partner, um,

because I want to concentrate again
on SAS and, uh, and co working.

And I also found out
that I hate co working.

Uh, it took me opening a co working space
to, uh, know that I hate co working.

Um, and shout out, there's a,
there's a person you should have

on your podcast from Toledo.

Uh, his name's Will Lucas.

He, uh, he's into everything.

He's done everything, but he's opened,
um, new type of coworking space, but

he's done it in a much better way.

And it's, it's more geared, uh,
it's more marketed as a, um,

entrepreneurial club, almost like
a country club for entrepreneurs.

And he's, yeah.

And it's like, he's got like all
these events and he's got a jazz bar.

He's got a coffee house in there
now, like he's doing it right.

And, um, Yeah, if I were to do co working
again, it would be, it would be like that.

Um, which is an idea that he got
in bigger cities like New York and

things like that, they all have these.

So, um, you can charge much more
higher fees for, uh, you know, a

country club of entrepreneurs and you
can, uh, a coworking space, but it's.

Kevin Griffin: And you not necessarily
providing more, like it's just,

Jamie Wright: Yeah,

Kevin Griffin: positioned differently,
which I think is all that matters.


Jamie Wright: yeah.

And he's done it really, really nice.

So he, he got as big building in this
other part of downtown that again,

was kind of, you know, It was cheap.

It was kind of the outskirts of downtown.

Now they put in a whole new state
park, like right across the street.

But, um, he, the way he did it, he's
bought this big building and then he,

he put in like a coffee shop and he
had a coworking area and then want,

you know, a couple months later, six
months later, he added like a jazz

club and then he added like a golf
simulator and then he added like, so

now he's got all these like little,
just Like he's got a cigar bar in there.

And so you can imagine doing all these
things at once would be a horrible idea.

It costs a lot of money.

You don't know if it's going to work.

Costs would be skyrocketing
in the beginning.

Um, so anyway, uh, all that to say,
like, he's done that very, very well.

You should have him on.

Kevin Griffin: The kind of last
question I want to ask is what's

in your mind, the end game for.

For everything you have, what you're
working on now, but it doesn't sound

like that's the last thing like to
be working on what, where do you

see yourself, I guess, in, in 20
years, like what, where does it stop?

Jamie Wright: I'll be dead in 20

Kevin Griffin: You'll be dead.

Jamie Wright: Yeah.

I'll be done in 20.

Um, No, uh, the end game is to, um,
my goal is to create a self sustaining

one person business that allows
me the freedom to do more things.

Um, and that gives me the
freedom to explore things.

Maybe it's the freedom to make the app I'm
currently working on better and bigger.

Um, I don't know, but I, I do
know that the type of business I

want to create Um, is a business
that's one person, maybe two, um,

doesn't grow any bigger than that.

It doesn't have a large support burden.

Like I don't need to take a
laptop with me on vacation.

Um, so it can't be anything like,
you know, your financial data or.

You know, you're code running,
uh, in a CI environment, so

it can't be any of that stuff.

And, um, and that will allow me
the freedom, hopefully, to explore

the other things I want to explore.

Um, you know, like, my wife and I
want to, um, open up a coffee shop.

Uh, she's a teacher.

We want to Uh, we've talked about
doing like, uh, a whole suite of

like teacher, the teacher industry
is like the education industry is

poorly underserved with good stuff.

And so I think there's a whole
thing around that with good

software for teachers and educators.

Um, there's just, I have so many ideas.

I just, I'm concentrating on the
idea that will give me the freedom

to explore those other ideas.

Um, yeah, I just want to
make stuff and put stuff out.

That's really all I want to do.

That's what gives me, um,
yeah, the biggest satisfaction

is just creating stuff.


. It's just having the
freedom to explore things.

That possibly could make me money.

I don't know, but I want to be
able to like going back to this

whole like software's art thing.

Like, I don't want to create a job.

I don't want to.

And that's that may be part of
the reason why it's been so long

for me on this journey is because.

I'm really enjoying the journey.

Um, and at one point I just, I got to
buckle down and say, I got to get this

out by, you know, June or whatever.

And, um, yeah, that's just, uh,
that's, that's when like the consulting

and the real world and the money
stuff kind of come comes into play.

And that's kind of the thing I want
to get rid of is I want to be able

to work on cool stuff, fun stuff with
the lifestyle I have now, I don't need

anything else, I don't want anything
else, um, and just enjoy more time with

family and friends and things like that.

So yeah,

Kevin Griffin: about your dislike
for accelerators, how they tend to.

Uh, give preference to the people
who they have the money to sustain

themselves so they can go off and they
can do this several week accelerator

for no pay to build the skills and
then go get a job doing something.

The, the single person, the bootstrapped.

Products group of us are
kind of the same way.

It's where we can't do the accelerators.

We can't take the time off because
we still have to feed our family

stuff to put the roof over our head.

So we end up doing the consulting
and all the other stuff on the side.

And it takes us away from the
real thing that we want to do.

I think the place I want to be is I
have friends who are the single, single

owner, SAS companies who worked a
tireless job for 10 years and they put

everything they had away in the bank.

They made, they put investments away
and now they're in a position where

they say, all right, I'm going to take.

A chance on me and I'm going to take
six months and just work on my thing.

And if it works, it works.

If it doesn't, the worst case
scenario is I go back to a job.

Um, it's a

Jamie Wright: think that would
be fun for those six months.

Um, I even contemplating on doing that.

And actually I've, I've been trying
to like take the summers off.

Cause again, my, my wife's a teacher.

It would be awesome, amazing if I could
take June to beginning of August off.

Um, and I actually kind of
sort of did that last year.

Um, and so.

Um, I, I don't think, yeah, I, I think
that sounds amazing, but at the end, if

you didn't get to where you want to be
giving yourself just six months, actually

a is for three months or a year is kind
of, do things do not work that fast.

If they work that fast, you're like
a, you know, one in a billion company.


Kevin Griffin: lot of cases, it's the,
the products that maybe 75%, so the,

the nights and weekends, and it really
needs that full time push that marketing

that polish and That's the type of work
you can't do on nights and weekends.

It's, it needs to be, you
know, every day of the week.

And it makes a lot of sense to
say, all right, if I'm going to

give this product the best chance
it has, I have to go all in on it.

And I think thankfully that half
a dozen or so friends I know

personally, who have done that have
seen success at various degrees.

Jamie Wright: Yeah,

Kevin Griffin: So there's something
to be said, but it's, I think to come

back to the parallel, I wanted to say
it, you have the people that try to

bootstrap it and we, we still have to
live within our means and we have to

keep income coming through various ways,
but then you have the people who get

the venture capital and say, Oh, here's
just a, here's a paycheck for nothing.


All right.

Just go off and work on your dream
and you just sell off 30 percent

of it or 40 percent of it or more.

Jamie Wright: yeah, I, yeah, I'm
also very against VC in most cases.

The stakes change, right?

Even if you get VC, like your stakes
change, the thing that you have to

create now is a hundred X what you
or I, or anybody can, can, can make,

can do to make a really good living,
like Kyber is a really good example,

like they were making 50 K a month.

Like, that's what I want, right?

And that's nothing to an investor,
but, you know, how many people can

go from, you know, that to a unicorn?

There's not that many.

Um, yeah, so I'm, I'm, I'm anti
VC as well, but going back to that

little six month thing, like, that's
the position I'm in right now.

Like, I could use, like, three weeks.

Kevin Griffin: Yeah.

Jamie Wright: And the launch
and everything that I have

in my head would be amazing.

So that is kind of one thing I'm
trying to navigate with my client.

I would love to say, Hey, listen,
guys, I'll be back in four weeks.

I'll be back next month.

Just give me this month.

And, um, um, I think
they would be open to it.

It's just not a good time right
now for that, for my client.

It's just, you're in the middle of a
crazy, crazy launch and things like that.

So that,

Kevin Griffin: want to be respectful
of, of everyone's timelines and

Jamie Wright: yeah,
well, a, and then B the.

I mean, they're going to probably say no.

Kevin Griffin: yeah.

Jamie Wright: And I like the idea
of having something to fall back on.

Um, not, not fall back on, but you
know, that like, if I just said, okay,

I'm gonna give myself six weeks and I
don't know what's going to happen next.

Uh, the thing that I'm working
on would not take six weeks.

It would take whatever I would need a
certain deadline, like saying four weeks.

And you have to start
this new thing, right?

Whatever this new thing is
that takes up your time.

You can't work on your, your thing that
you're working on now, unless some, you

know, unless it goes extremely well,
that's kind of more of a situation I

would love to be in, you know, anyway.

Kevin Griffin: Well, Jamie, we've been
rambling for almost an hour now, so I

think it's about time you wrap things up.

Uh, Any final words for anyone out
there listening that wants to be

just like Jamie when they grow up?

Jamie Wright: Um, yeah, don't do that.

Um, also, uh, just do just
try stuff, create stuff.

And don't listen to quote unquote, the
experts, like, don't listen to Kevin.

Um, no, what I, what I mean

Kevin Griffin: I'm not an expert,
so definitely don't listen to me.

Jamie Wright: what I mean by that
is there's a lot of these industry,

a lot of people go out and have one
successful product and they'll come

back and they'll start like, you know,
a thing to help other developers.

And they always have like these,
you know, tips, you gotta do this.

You gotta do that.

You gotta do this.

Don't listen to any of that, man.

Like these.

These people that just have one
successful product, they believe,

a lot of them, that you can just
cookie cutter that, and that's how,

bada bing, bada boom, you get money.

Nobody knows the rules, man.

Nobody knows the rules.

Nobody, everybody tries stuff that's, um,
out of the box, and then when it's not out

of the box, then it becomes mainstream.

Yeah, just try stuff and have fun with it.

That's my, that's my main, uh, and
the money will, will come, will come.

If you're diligent enough and you're,
um, you keep working on the thing

and you're passionate about it,
the money, the money is going to

come, as long as you're having fun.

Kevin Griffin: Nothing
else we can say after that.

Jamie, thanks so much for
hanging out with us today.

And everyone else, thanks for listening
to the multi threaded income podcast.

We'll see you again next time.

Jamie Wright: Thank you.

Thanks for having me.

You've been listening to the
multi threaded income podcast.

I really hope that this podcast
has been useful for you.

If it has, please take a moment to leave a
review wherever you get your podcast from.

And don't forget the
conversation doesn't stop here.

Join us on our discord at mti.

to slash discord.

I've been your host Kevin Griffin
and we'll see you next week.

Cha ching!