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Follow one church's journey as they depart from modern church growth trends and reinvent themselves by equipping everyday Christians to live out their faith in real life. Find episodes and show notes at www.dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
EP47 Transistor (00:15.776)
Spar and the leadership development is just like just above the cringe factor. And Rudy was someone who like allowed things in the early days to be just above the cringe factor. he could have done it way better and yet put us in spaces that we weren't even ready for. Welcome to season four of Reinventing Church. I'm Danielle Hartland and I'm here as always with Pastor Derek. Hi, everybody. This season we're exploring the practical house.
Of moving from a purely attractional to a missional multiplication model of church, what it looks like every day for real leaders and real people. So every other week, we're gonna talk to a real person at Grace with no formal title who's trying to live out their calling in everyday spaces. But this is a practitioner week. So we're gonna be talking to Shane from Clarity House about leadership development today. I'm really excited. Yes. yeah. So I was thinking about leadership development and how, you know.
My own journey. but also just you gotta kinda like make space in the process for people to learn how to do stuff, right? Let sit at tables, they shouldn't be quite yet. Right. But you gotta plan speak up. Yeah. Yeah. R yeah, disagree, agree, learn what clicks, all that kind of stuff. Yeah. so in that process, which one of us do you think is most likely to say, I have an idea at the worst possible moment or least convenient moment?
Why was it mean? Which what's the example? I'm not sure it was either. No, it wasn't. I was just being self deprecated. I do I do think we we probably both have that tendency. So I I would also be self deprecated. So that's probably me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. especially these days when it's like, you know, there's meetings happening without me and then I swoop in and all of a sudden it's like, Hey, have we thought about that? And they're like, Bro
You're like, hey the most reasonable and you're like, Hey, how far along when you ever Hey, how far along are we on this? It's really nice that you ask. 'Cause you're like then you're like negotiating, right? Like should I do this or not? So you at least ask. Yeah, no, y but you do this too, and it's good because these are the you know, that's part of innovation. That's part of I think you know, in the end, obviously there can be tables where it's not safe to have a new idea. Totally.
EP47 Transistor (02:30.642)
And I don't think those are probably great spaces to be in. And obviously there's times for that and all that kind of stuff. But if that's the whole culture, that's probably not good. Well you're not gonna do much new. You're just gonna keep doing what you've been doing. Which some people need to do. And that's fine. That's not us. So my no. Reinventing Church. We have the opposite problem. We do it. I I think one of your funniest moments, and you were young, Danielle, at the time. Not that you still aren't. I mean No, it's fine. You're a spring chicken still.
The I the Christmas at the Warner is the thing that always comes to my mind with this of just like we're having this, you know, conversation around a table. This how long ago was this? This is a long time ago. I it would have probably been like what, fifteen? Fourteen or fifteen years ago. Yeah. 'Cause we didn't execute it. Yeah, it really for a couple of years. So yeah, minus fifteen years from now, yeah. You're a young woman at at the table, a creative, you know, you're a creative mind and
We're trying to figure out how we're gonna do Christmas Eve services that year. And you're like, hey, what if we took those services out to the local theater in the middle of town and canceled all of our Christmas Eve services and did a service for the community. So here we are. We've been doing it every s ever since. I w did a promo video yesterday for Christmas at the Warner, which is always my trigger that we're we're doing it. And
And here we here we here we go. Got the announcement. Guess what's happening. no, I do remember that moment. I just remember like yeah. That was one of those moments where it was like I felt convicted to say it. Yeah. But the room like Yeah froze. It was like a slow motion freeze. And I'm like, I had like about a bazillion
negative self talk moments in like probably one second before someone was like Whoa, that would be so crazy. And I remember yeah, one particular person was like, how much would that be? Like it's a big Well yeah, everybody's doing the calculus in their minds. Of course, everyone's doing all their stuff. Cost, energy, work, load yeah, that's a good one. huh. Yeah. Yours always end up good.
EP47 Transistor (04:40.16)
Upcomb. As well. Right. Well they do. I mean batten a thousand on my idea. Well, okay, fine. What what's the what's the good average for bas I don't know baseball. I mean, you know, if you're doing the three fifty, you're doing just fine. That's great. Yeah. all right. So okay. I'm not going to tell you one of yours. You're great. You are. Yours are like really good, obviously. Great. so again, I keep having these polls and I'm gonna stop this. there
I didn't realize how often people are doing polls. Yeah, there's a lot of polls. AI. This is from now. AI does polls all the time. it's just running polls day and you think Gallup is doing that? Probably. it's gross. but there literally was one at the beginning of this month and it came back saying only forty four percent of managers worldwide have ever received management training. Wow. So more than, you know.
Well, not more than a little bit, almost half. Almost half. That's crazy. And that's just people leading at any That's any. That's not any. This is not the church. This is not this is like across the world kind of. Yeah, that's wild. And then you're like looking to those people f for leadership. Right. And they've never been trained or they don't know what they're doing. Yeah. But also what's the best training? Like what is training? Like are they counting Correct. What are they counting? Yeah.
Well, what what's in so I've been doing some I've been doing some research and some talks as I've been going out to do like untapped church things, which is a book that I wrote about, you know, developing leaders and especially volunteer leaders in the church. So I've been doing some research around some like keynote talks around that topic and like the church side of that is and I'll say something a little later when Shane and I talk, but like four percent of pastors say that
Their church does leadership development well. Four four percent. And then it's something like again, almost the same thing. Like almost half of churches say they have zero leadership development plan or process. Like they just they don't th there's no process for it. So go for it. This is just a it's a big gap, you know, and I think it's important for us to talk about because it's like both in the
EP47 Transistor (07:01.708)
business world and secular space and in the church space, I feel like there's a a hunger for this. And you know, I would say in just rubbing shoulders with lots of marketplace leaders, I feel like probably the growing sentiment, even among those who do receive it, think that it's worthless. You know what I mean? Or or or that they like the traditional version of it, yeah. They didn't love they're like, yeah, we go to our quarterly trainings and they're
terrible or you know or whatever. So, you know, I think there's also that of like people who do or companies who do say you need to do this X, Y, and Z to make sure that you're you're being trained. I hear that with teachers. Everybody kind of rolls their eyes and be like, one of those again you know, that doesn't actually help us to do what we do. So yeah, I think it's a big gap. Yeah. It's not practical enough. Yeah. And I also th like in the church, that four percent thing is interesting. But like I was thinking too just about how like
A lot of times because we're so seven day turnaround and like all the things and managing all the people, it's like the leadership development plan can be get real good at a job, someone notices that you're good at it, and now you're in charge of ten people doing that. Right. It's like, well, it's transferable. Like you know what you're doing, so just tell everybody else what you're doing. As if that is automatically part of everyone's gifting or knowledge base. Right. Just 'cause you know how to make a cup of coffee doesn't mean you know how to
Get 10 people to run a cafe. Yeah. Yeah. Very simple. Yeah. And this is the classic old adage of like, yeah, just because you're good at a skill doesn't mean that you're good at leading others in that skill. And, you know, we always my my wife, Kim, is a great example of she so she she works in construction, she builds houses, you know. And she would so like if she was sitting here, she would go, I'm terrible at teaching people how to do things. Like I'm great. She can hang cabinets lay tile faster than any human I know. Yeah. but our joke.
With with her and her joke is her training method is to do it in front of somebody and then go, Don't you see? So don't you see is her like she just assumed stress me so you just assume you can watch her do it and then you can instantly do it. And that that's kind of the same concept as we we can assume people if you do that, yeah. You just do that. Yeah. You know, do the next step up and you're you're gonna be fine and we'll throw you into the deep end. And, you know, I think it's a lot of where we we find ourselves in terms of
EP47 Transistor (09:28.514)
When we get in trouble. Yeah. All right. That's yeah. So But here's the other side of that. Like when you think so, I did again a ton of research on this and when you look at like how the Bible talks about leadership. Yeah. So, you know, I I w one of my big mantras, I feel like the church has like gone hook line and sinker into a business model in terms of developing leaders. And so it's like give us your application, give us your two references and you're there. And I think the church sh should be staffed differently than that. Sure.
in terms of just what are the qualifications and so we outsource this whole thing and all. But when you look at the Bible and look at all the lists where, you know, that's talking about leaders, so leaders in the church, when Moses is choosing leaders, when anybody's choosing leaders, the the the way I've said it before is there is one qu character quality that rises to the level of like when you know, the
in the New Testament the writers say faith, hope, and love, or they give this list and but the greatest of these is love, you know, where they say that that's the most important. I think there's a leadership one of those. Yeah. That's greater than all the rest. And it's actually faithfulness. yeah. That faithfulness comes up. And so there is something to be said for dependability and like seeing somebody in action and giving them greater responsibility. But like
To go, which w what what your point is when when you take somebody from the shallow end and just toss them into the deep end and go, Well, you must be good at this other thing. Yeah, it'll be cool. We've missed a big gap in there that really is the the the heart of this episode. Yeah, that's great. all right. So let's why don't you give us a little just as a reminder, you do like a little bit of prep and kinda give like a history of where we've gone right and wrong with these things. And so this is the
Leadership development one would be cool. So where do leaders come from? Great. Where do leaders come from? And I and let me prime the question. I'm not going to make you answer, but I'm asking you the questions on behalf of everybody. Okay. When somebody says leadership development, when somebody says those two words together, what is the picture that pops into your head? And so I'll just, you know, for those listening and even for you, like I think we all have an image that comes into our mind when we think about that.
EP47 Transistor (11:42.354)
And maybe it's a a class or a clipboard or a binder. You know we've got our share of maybe for some of us it's so yeah, where did where where do leaders come from? So l let me just run through some history. I think every church says it develops leaders and you know, as I said in that statistic, there there's a th not a lot of us are doing it or at least doing it well.
And I think part of it is because we've turned leadership development, like what pops into our heads when we say that is that it's a curriculum. Yep. So we have to take people through these four, eight, ten, twelve classes. Or it's a pipeline. So and I heard Dave Ashcraft recently he's talk this, the president of the GLN, Global Leadership Network. He just said,
I don't know where these magical pipelines are coming from. my gosh, that is so amazing. He's like we use this word pipeline as if there's some spigot that we just go over to and turn it and a leader pops out. Someone didn't turn on the spigot. He's like, Where where are these pipelines? And so instead, I think we need to be thinking about w leaders a leadership development culture. Yeah, that's cool. Creating these spaces where leaders can kind of work their way up through
different levels and different relationships and and unfortunately because we've stopped doing that, we've shifted the model to just go, well, we don't really have them here, so we're gonna have to go hire them from somewhere else. Yeah. And hopefully cross fingers, somebody else has developed some leaders out there that we can go hire and just all the development's done. Now we can just bring them in to do this job. And I think we
probably don't say that out loud very often, but I think that's probably the philosophy that a lot of us are are working under. So where did this idea of the church growing leaders come from in the first place? how did it drift into this kind of curriculum program kind of model and and how do we take it back? And so I let me just plant this phrase early before I get into a few movements here. I think leaders, when it's done well
EP47 Transistor (13:54.53)
Have always been raised up on real assignments by someone who was raised up the same way. And that there's this close, proximal, relational thing that happens when a good leader is born. And so if we go back to Jesus' model from the very beginning, you know, think about how Jesus developed his leaders, these guys who would take the world by storm. Like he was developing world changing leaders.
the New Testament word is mathētēs , which means learner. And so again, we use that word for disciple. It's also r representative of a leader. The Hebrew word is talmid. and so in our modern world, the closest you can get to what this is describing in the New Testament is an apprentice. Yeah. And so an appr the goal of an apprentice is to resemble the master. And so Jesus says, you know, everyone he when he is fully trained.
will be like his teacher. And so he it doesn't he won't know what his teacher knows. He will be like his teacher. And so there's this rubbing off of life. And the rabbi then was reproducing his life in your life. And his teaching was part of that. But a lot of it was modeling and go, I just want you to be like me. And so the question always right away, and we I have this conversation all the time, is was Jesus doing discipleship or was he doing leadership development?
And are those two things separate? Are those two things the same thing? And I think the answer is yes. He was doing both. And I think the key word for our phrase might not be leadership, it might be the word development. Yeah. Right. Because development is the commonality in both of those things, you know. And so we we need to think about developing disciples, we need to think about developing leaders. Yeah. Like when I think about some of us that came up with you as you were leading us.
Obviously, yes, you made the binders, we did the stuff, we did the studies, we did the things. We also sat crisscross applesauce on your living room floor holding a ba one of your babies while we're just like talking and learning and watching you navigate and like I remember watching you navigate your marriage in front of all of us and like not in a bad way, in like a this is how people are married in a house and you know, like just it was very holistic in terms of
EP47 Transistor (16:17.216)
art. Yeah, it was just development. It wasn't like and you I don't know what you were thinking. I don't I don't know if you got what you wanted, but it definitely was a lifestyle thing. Yeah. For sure. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it even fun I mean our our text exchange within the last week is still parenting stuff. Like here's what I'm going through with Dax. What like Yeah. So there is a an involvement, a development involvement at that level that I think Jesus showed us. Yeah. You know, this is not a modern idea. This is what this is what Jesus showed us. And I think
developing disciples and developing leaders kind of happens in the same pot. You know what I mean? It's the same muscle. I like this distinction though, that our friend Dave Rhodes used with with us. He said the hinge moment of discipleship is the first time somebody hears God's voice for themselves and they answer the question, Can I trust God? The hinge moment of leadership is the first time somebody realizes that God can use them.
And the question is, can God trust me? Yeah. That's good. So can I trust God and can God trust me? And it's the it's kind of the two sides of leadership discipleship development. so you know, we've been using this this around grace for a while. It's actually caught a little traction, this idea of like when you follow a rabbi, that there was actually a common phrase that you would sit in the dust of their feet and drink in their words with thirst. And that that idea
in the in Jesus' time was the root of this blessing that came to be spoken. May you be covered in the dust of your rabbi, which is this idea that if you stayed close enough to that rabbi as they walked the dusty roads, you would actually get dirty from the dust that was kicking up off their feet. It's just a it's just a picture of following so closely that you're you're not just hearing their teachings, you're watching their their life. And a Talmud, a a a learner, one of these disciples
would learn by serving. And so the the the Talmud would say things like, serving the sages is greater than studying with them. And so this idea that you're just carry you know, you're carrying his stuff and your bags. And you know, you watch him settle an argument and you watch how he prayed and you watch how he treats people who interrupt interrupt him, you know, and that sort of thing.
EP47 Transistor (18:41.022)
And th there's this this is funny. I actually removed this from a sermon recently 'cause I thought it would be a little too spicy. But that one f one student followed his rabbi into a restroom a restroom and he just said, you know, it's the Torah and I need to learn like how he goes to the bathroom. So you know, it's just like that that that's how closely they were trying to mimic the the lifestyle.
And so the other interesting thing is that, you know, most students were it's like Harvard or Yale or whatever, like Stanford. Most students are like lining up to apply to be students for these rabbis. It made what Jesus did so countercultural when he went out. And found fishermen and said, Follow me. Yeah. Like a normal rabbi wouldn't do that. A normal rabbi stays put. Yeah.
Takes in all the applications, pi picks the best the d ones at the top of their class, highest SAT scores, and says, like, this is gonna be my little band of followers. And so Jesus, the way he did it was just so spectacular. but then you think about like how his ministry actually played out. And so there were the big crowds, he was teaching, there was lots of teaching happening. Most of the teaching was for the crowds. Right.
Then he there were these smaller circles. And so then there was the seventy-two that he sent out. Then there was the twelve that he sent out. Then there were the three that went up to the Mount of Transfiguration. So there were these circles. Each of them got a little bit different access to Jesus. And it ended really in friendship. He says kind of toward the end of his ministry, John fifteen, no longer do I call you servants, but I've called you friends. And so we we just it's what you described earlier with us. Like you it you're yeah, you're wanting to develop people, but at some point it's like we're we're just
Just like each other. We love each other. We get to do this together. And and man, we we're kind of rubbing off on each other in different ways. And you know, it's just that beautiful thing. And so when we think about leadership development, I think that's the you know, that's the the the model of Jesus. So you fast forward through the New Testament, you know, so first of all, when Jesus chose his disciples, it says in Mark three fourteen, Jesus appointed the twelve, I love this phrase, so that they might be with him.
EP47 Transistor (20:48.268)
And he might send them out to preach. Yeah. So there's this invitation and assignment. invitation first and then assignment. And so be with him to watch him, and then he sends them out secondly. And sometimes we it's what you said, we get that reversed. Sure. We go, hey, deep end. Mm-hmm. Go out and then let's we'll we'll be with each other if we cross paths. If you need if you need to be here. Yeah. Exactly.
So n notice when he sent them out, he always sent them in pairs. Yeah. So there's this life on life thing. I love Acts four thirteen, one of my very favorite verses. the council looks at Peter and John in the public square and they said they said these are uneducated common men. The Greek word is idiotes. Didn't you make a shirts that said that once I should have it still might be coming? A mug. But the only then explanation that the the the lead the leaders have
is they said, these guys have been with Jesus. Yeah. Like there's no other explanation for the power that they are walking with, other than that they have been with Jesus. anyway, you just see it with Paul and all of his disciples, Timothy and T you know, all these people that he raised up. But the the point of I think this early stage of history is that the rabbi's curriculum was his life. Yeah. The leadership development approach was
Classroom was the road. But that's good. And they trained in the field. But then the real assignments always came with conversation, relationship, life on life. So move to the early church, a hundred to four thirty-ish AD. So we we you begin to see what Paul said in Second Timothy two, two, that we all know this four generations, you know, that what you
Paul to Timothy and Timothy to faithful people and faithful people to others also. And so we see this like cascading effect of really leadership development. The early church lived that chain. And so we have this really interesting illustration of John trained a guy named Polycarp, and Polycarp trained an early church father named Irenaeus. And Irenaeus as an old man, so now he's three generations from John, okay? He writes to a friend.
EP47 Transistor (23:11.16)
that he can still describe the place where Polycarp sat when he taught him, when he sat at his feet, and how he came and went and what he looked like and how he talked about his time with John. And so decades later, he he's not remembering the principles, he's remembering the chair that he sat in and how he watched him come and go out of that chair. And so again, just another picture of this kind of life on light the this closeness.
Augustine in the three nineties when he became a priest and then a bishop at Hippo, he li the the clergy lived together. So they lived in the same house. They shared a house, they shared a table, they shared money. And so his biographer said about about ten men from Augustine's household went on to become bishops. So again, you just see this like proximity and leaders being formed in households,
Long before they were formed in schools. Yeah. Long before we created colleges and, you know, seminaries, there was this like life on life. So then you move fast forward to like the twelve hundreds to the eighteen hundreds, that that now you have these guilds and parsonages and and eventually circuit riders. And so the when you think about like these guilds, this wasn't just a church thing. Like for most of history, this is how anybody learned anything. Like they didn't one of my kids' funny comments, they they were like
thinking about before cell phones and now before chat, like how did you guys learn things? That that was like literally a question that they asked. Well there's this guy that came to your house with all these books. He sold it sold you. Britannica one alphabet, one letter my family is one letter at a time. Not really. Not really. Keith sits all the kids down. We're we're doing A tonight, girls. Here we go. We're starting a new thing.
But for most of his Sorry. But anything you needed to learn was apprenticeship, then journeyman, then if eventually if you become a a master. And so, you know, if you're a plumber, even that like you learn to do it so there's some information involved. You need to learn how this works. But then if you're an apprentice in a master situation, then the master says, Learn to do it like me.
EP47 Transistor (25:29.016)
So I'm gonna teach you my ways. and I want you it's imitation. I want you to learn to do it exactly like me. Then I can trust you. When I know you can do it like me, then you can learn to do it like you. Yeah. And then you can innovate, then you can do your own thing. But I need you to yeah, I need you to know how to do it like me first. And so you have this information imitation, innovation kind of flow. And y you know, again, I think Rhodes was the one that said, like, if if you're teaching somebody to paint, you bring them in and go, Learn to paint like me
And then you can learn to paint like you. But you have to go through this process first of like, let me show you how to do it. Yeah. so anyway, colonial New England, let's come to America. Like before there were seminars. If you want to be in a pastor, you you needed to move in with one of these bishops. Yeah. and Joseph Bellamy, one of these early bishops, he trained dozens of young ministers in his parsonage in Bethlehem, Connecticut.
way before there was a graduate seminary. He was just inviting people who wanted to be pastors into his home, live with me. teacher and student are like literally living together. the Methodist circuit riders, this is another funny thing. So as the as the gospel starts to go out, they the Francis Asbury left school young. So so while some seminaries were were established now by this time and they're saying like you have to go through six years of training or whatever.
These guys like left school, became apprentices. Francis Asbury's preaching as a teenager and he was learning on horseback as they were literally riding from speaking engagement to speaking engagement with somebody more experienced who was just teaching them along the way. It was this like as you go learning. And what's interesting is that the congregationalist movement was happening at the same time as the Methodist movement. Congregationalists believed
Clergy had to be college educated. That denomination went from 20% of the population to four percent, while the Methodists who started out as 2.5% by 1850, they were about 34% of the population. But it was because they said, We're gonna train on the go. We're not gonna do this upfront. You have to learn all this information first, then you can be a pastor. Come join me. We're gonna go do this, and I'm gonna train you as we go.
EP47 Transistor (27:53.664)
And so even then the the movements that started to raise up leaders from inside in this kind of relational context were outpacing the ones who were just saying you have to do this up. When if you go to seminary, guess what you still have to do anyway? Right. Practice. Practice. Exactly. So But a lot of people don't. There's just like an information dump. Yeah. Right. And so it's like, give me all the information, then hopefully I'll remember everything when I get out there. And it's yeah. Yeah. Anyway. So here's the modern turn. when I came to Grace, one of the big
bugaboos in the church was that I was not seminary trained. that was like a thing back in the nineties, early nineties of just like, you how could we be hiring this person who's not seminary trained? Culturally that makes sense because of what the whole world was doing. That's exactly right. But that that in our recent times, seminary has has become kind of the main doorway into ministry. and training
move leadership training move from the field back to the classroom. And credentialing was what became important to the assignment. Do they have the letters after their name? what's interesting is like most other fields move the opposite direction. So when you look at the medical field, for example, like they moved way more into residencies. Yep. And like we need to get them out of the classroom and into the surgery rooms or whatever so that they can actually learn how this works. We actually have someone doing a practicum from a
Christian University coming up. And like one of the things was like whoever directly supervises them needs to have a degree in this thing. So we're like, okay, it'll be this one. They have the closest degree for it. Right. You know, it's just like if they're doing a practicum, it doesn't matter. Yeah. It it's just interesting. Yeah, they should just be watching somebody who knows how to do it. Whoever's the best at it, they should supervise them. Yeah. It's just interesting. There's still that credentialing thing that happened. So
But in the Christian space, in the church space, there was now the boom of like leadership network that started in nineteen eighty four, John Maxwell developing the leader within you, that comes out in ninety three. Willow launched the leadership summit in ninety-five. Wow. which is wild. It is. But and and again, a lot of good came out of that era. And I've and you've learned from all of it. but again, the idea of a leadership pipeline that that now is very popular in the church space, I mean that came
EP47 Transistor (30:16.854)
out of GE in two thousand one. Yeah. You know, and I remember learning that. So as we think about leadership development, we've picked up a lot of these ideas from business and culture and and this whole industry of like Christian search firms, headhunters and stuff has grown out of that. Shane and I talked about that a bit. But you know, I think w where we find ourselves now
Is going, how do we get here? I think I just described like when you s look back to Jesus and go, how did these shifts happen? And what how would I put words to where we stand right now in the middle of the drift? Is that development has become content delivery. So the idea that, you know, we have more leadership books, podcasts, conferences than ever in history. And leaders are still the number one need of most churches and pastors.
Because we have information without practicum. Yeah. I think the other part of the drift is a lot of our training has become orientation. So when you think about like orientation coming in where it's just like we're gonna dump info on you and work we call that training. Yeah. And you know, we we need to rethink that. staff gets hired for competency and then rarely developed. Yeah.
So it what it's what we talked about earlier. You go outside and go, who else developed this person that has these skills that we could use? Yeah. We bring them in to use those skills, but we don't continue to develop them. And then just I think we can name leadership programs, but we often can't name people. So if you go back and go, Hey, name I'll I'll ask the audience, name five leaders your church has developed in the last five years. A lot of us could name the classes that we had them take or the
But do those names bubble up of go who do we who have we actually developed, you know? Yeah. So anyway, I think that's the I think that's the where we find ourselves and the drift we find ourselves in. That's really good. All right. So let's hand it over now. you had a good time with Shane. I'm sorry I missed it, but Yeah, it was great. Yeah, just again to
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Just remind people who he is. He's Dave Rhodes' partner at Clarity House. and he helps churches all over the country build training cultures. he's been coaching our team for years, and he's kind of the I say like he's the like practical, like step by step, how are you gonna accomplish this thing that we're dreaming about guy? Exactly. Which I love about him. Yeah, I think Dave is Dave is kinda like this sage. Yeah. He has this sage like quality and Shane's like
And how the crapper works. But also here we go. We have to do it. So all right, here's Shane. Here's Shane. Hey, we're here again with Shane Stacey. Thanks, Shane, for joining us from Minneapolis, Home Sweet Home. Hope you're well today. So we're talking about leadership development. And let let's just let's start with just kind of where we're at. We've been naming, you know, where we've been, and we've been naming kind of the drift.
from Jesus original model. And why don't you just talk about kind of the lay of the land? Where do we find ourselves in terms of leadership development in the in the church world these days? Yeah. This is a hot topic. I mean, in many ways, right? Like I feel like it's like one of the growing topics of the day, probably for the last five years in particular. I think it was Lifeway did one of their research again. It came out this like for churches like one of the number one challenges.
For church leaders was just l around leadership development. And I think part of that is it has become leadership development program. It has become high like content. So there's all sorts and we have more resources around leadership development, more podcasts around leadership development. I mean, we have so much around leadership development, which is great, but in many ways, I think it's it's gotten itself stuck there. we have information or we have a program.
that the way we even talk about leadership develop and f in fact Derek, I would say like in some ways it's almost like this thing that should be simple. I mean not easy. Just it there's like we've we've almost made it mysterious. because of how much you know has come into that. So that that would be that would be some of what I would just name right off the bat is that it's become pretty content heavy. It's good.
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I I was just with David Ashcraft who whom also you know and he leads the global leadership network, so they got leadership in the name. You know, they're they're swimming in these waters all the time, especially in the church space. And he he mentioned a study that just said seventy seven percent of pastors and church leaders when they are asked what is your greatest need said leaders and the th the thing that he said that I found so interesting,
Well, first of all, you would think maybe that more church leaders would say money, you know, and just because that that's kind of with the go to when you think about what do churches need. And a lot of people would just be thinking, man, if we had, you know, that budget that that church down the road has, we would be doing well too, you know. And the thing that I found so interesting is he said he gave this example that I think kind of sums it up. He said there was a church who was just going gangbusters, a good, successful church. They had raised enough money
for seven new locations. So seven new locations at once they were able to open, which is insane. And he said, but they had leaders for three locations. And so and his question to us was, Do you know how many locations they opened? And the answer is three. Because leaders are more important than money, you know? And so so there is this sense of, I think in the church space and in every space, man, leaders are at a premium and so how do we
How do we do a better job when it comes to leadership development? And so yeah, there has been this drift of just like you know, okay, if we could just dump enough content into, you know, a group of people, then cross our fingers and hopefully they'll they'll they'll come up. Yeah. And I I mean I even just naming that right off the bat, Derek, I I think even talking about leadership development, like, hey, we need to do more leadership development, we need to do more leadership development.
is true and if we're not careful, the language itself even holds us back because really what we need is a leadership, we need a development culture. Yeah. one of the things that we talk in a lot about at Clarity House, you around this, Dave and I and and some of the team is that at the very core we actually have a development challenge that actually affects both discipleship and leadership development. And if we don't address the development
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side of things, the training side of things, the equipping side of things. we actually will find it in both places. We'll find a roadblock in our disciple making, and we'll find a roadblock in our leader leadership as well. It's really good. So I I I've done some thinking about this and how how do we actually develop people and like so when it comes to this shared
Ministry, shared leadership. I mean, that's kind of what we're talking about is how do people who have been given a certain assignment share it with other people. And, you know, I there's this kind of continuum that I put together. You know, the worst thing that you can do is to do it yourself. Like if you're sharing leadership, doing it yourself is the worst possible thing you could do. And so, but the next bad thing you could do is dumping. So doing it yourself, dumping it on it, because there's a lot of people that just back the dump truck up and go, here's all the stuff that you need to do, go do it.
But and then there's this thing called delegation that I think we put in a positive bucket and go, well, delegation's really good. And so shouldn't but the difference with development is development is where it becomes about the person. And all the stages up until till till then it's still about the task. It's about getting that task done or getting that thing accomplished. And so this development culture where it's like, no, no, no, it's actually about the
person and the task. Like the task is still there. The ministry is still important. But it becomes about, and that's what we just see so clearly in Jesus ministry is just that yes, there was the task and it was a pretty big one, like save the world from their sins. But but he did but he did it through this development lens, which was just so, so, so beautiful, you know. And so anyway, as we look to the future of the church and kind of dream about the future of the church and the horizon that that we're on.
You know, l let's think about just like this idea of ministry or sorry, development as apprenticeship again and and just talk about the the shift from kind of where we are to what could what could it look like to kind of get back to this idea of like apprenticeship or life on life. Yeah, I love that because I think as we look ahead, there is the you know, you've heard us talk about it before just how do we move from being only a teaching center.
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To be a training center and and and the church in the past, throughout history has been that, like has been a training center in many ways. I mean, we wanna have strong teaching, wanna ki tie to that strong training as well, development as well, equipping. Like I'm using all those as synonyms there. important. I would say like so apprenticeship and again, so we get pushback on this sometimes, right? 'Cause you're just like, well, Derek, come on, like gee, like yes, if I could
walk f six miles with you literally from from Capernaum to Nain, I'm sure we'd get some things done, but that's just not where we live today. and things. And no, it wasn't, you know, we're going to Jerusalem and it's a week's journey and stuff. but there is a pr like we take apprenticeship in other spaces as well. And I I think about it sometimes around the several P's just because I'm not even Baptist, but I got alliterations around it. You can join the club, man. You're in
You're in if you can moderate those keys. I think it it requires I'll give you a few of them then see if proximity, practice, productive failure, personalized feedback, and progressive responsibility. And if I was tapping so I'll tap on and we can stop on any of But proximity does mean
I have to be close enough to you. and there you have to be even a span of care, if you will, or a span of to where I can get you can get access to me and also I'm close enough to you if I'm developing you that I can see and get into some of those other things like feedback. And so one of the pictures that comes to my mind on this, like picture you were learning. I signed up for golf to to like Dave would love, by the way, if I would learn golf.
But if I did, like if I and imagine I show up to this training for golf and there's fifty people on the driving range all lined up and there's one coach.
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Derek, how is my golf game? Is like is my swing gonna improve? It isn't. In fact, if I'm like number thirty-seven on that, I might get a little coaching here or there. But if I'm like number thirty seven in that line, unfortunately, I've actually probably rehearsed muscle memory. I've probably swung. I've probably swung, you know, by that time, you know, twenty five, thirty times, and I'm only rehearsing bad muscle memory before we get there. You've got to I've only gotten worse, which is
Man, that is really bad. It's really bad already. so what that I I mean, I bring up that like just to put in our minds for a minute because I think that a reality is that's how in the church sometimes we're approaching leadership development as well. It's like, hey, we'll have fifty, a hundred people in a room, we'll talk at them and there's not proximity. And proximity is necessary I need to give you access into my life and also into my leadership, into my space, and things, but also I need to be close enough to you.
So I can give you real-time, you know, feedback on things. And if both you and I went into our leadership journey, which is one of the things we love to do, like, I think this is really helpful exercise. And that is go back in your leadership journey and think about how did you become the leader that you are today? And go as early as possible. Like, who was the first person who gave you a chance before you ever deserved chance? Like, I'd go all the way back to 15 on that.
But if you start going back into that, like you start rehearsing what did they do, you quickly like the proximity shows up. right. That it was they were giving me access to their their life and into their leadership space, and some of their leadership responsibilities, even, that I had no business. That's right. my gosh. I had no b I was so not ready for. But they gave me, you know, space in that. So proximity one, pro you know.
Practice would be another productive failure. We can tap into any of those, but I think that is a a s a a reality that we have to look with round apprenticeship is are we getting enough? I want to build on that last thing you said because it cause cause what you just described was is so so true, and I think we've become allergic to it in our in our highly stratified kind of educational model.
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information dump model that that we're in is that this idea that like when you look at Jesus, he he gave those disciples way too much responsibility way too early. According to our accord like they didn't go to seminary. They didn't they didn't do I mean I remember even when I was coming into ministry, like the the people that were thinking of me as a pastor, they're like you didn't go to seminary. And I was I was doing it kind of remotely as I went ideal. And I'm I'm like a huge advocate for that.
version because it served me so well. It's like you get kind of thrown into the deep end and then it's like I better learn or I'm gonna, you know, you don't want to do real damage to to people or the church or anything. But like, man, there's something about that model where we've said education, education, education up front, and then you can serve. And we kind of take a little version of that, even with volunteers and otherwise of like all the training needs to happen first and then go do it. And it's like ta talk about that kind of
From a little bit. I there's so many things I want to go off on that one. because well, just what you just said, and I think this is important. I I just want to put this in every one of our l you know, your listeners' minds on this. I think most of what we call training is just teaching 2.0. And even what you just described there as volunteer, I'm like, that's orientation. That is not training. a three hour, hey, one time, and then hey, we're gonna release you in
things. And a lot of times what you're doing is you're you're orienting them to the tasks that they're going to need to do and how the system works, if you will. you're not actually building their their competence or their development or even tested that. even you know thought about what that means. So one wanna wanna name that side of things. And then the other, let's just name we talk about it as like what do you need for breakthrough training?
And we think there's, you know, three things. We you know we there's different language around this, on it, but we'll talk about hey, we gotta we've gotta challenge the paradigm, which is really around the content side of things. Like th there are things. There are things that we need to understand, right? There are principles that we need to hold to, like there is knowledge that we need to have. And so in no way are we, you know, against that. Like there is that is part of it. That is part of training and development. then we would say the second one is really around equip the competency.
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And that is where I this idea of practice and productive failure I was naming earlier is what is the competency? have we named what that is? And there might be several. so we gotta go kind of one at a time, stack But are we giving people an opportunity to actually practice that where we can see it and observe it, and give some feedback, you know, around that. others would call that it it's context.
it's like you you need to how do we move the development process as close to the con like the real context as possible? Like it's a big deal, right? And then the other is is the coach, like the feedback, the the personalized feedback is it requires I need a coach. It's back to that golf thing is if I'm twenty seven people away, you have no idea, like I need you to tell me. I I went whitewater raft whitewater kayaking last us,
September. And this was like a great, it was like a wonderful training environment because I almost drowned one. and so it's amazing how much you're listening and attentive and motivated to learn if you think you may die. but what I loved was West was my was one of my guides and West we were learning how to roll and he would stop and say here's what you're doing right
So that I didn't change that. And it affirmed it, encouraged it. And then he would name here's the one thing I want you to try next. Wow. And then we would do it three and four times. And he would literally we'd do it in slow motion. We would talk it out loud. And then we would do it. And then he would, you know, like, yes, it was super, it was so helpful. And so those three, I mean, I would say those three things around hey, it's a
Content, we're content heavy. Content's important. We probably don't need as much of it as we think that we do. if we will add to it competency development for the context, meaning you're developing as a person. I'm helping you grow as a person. And especially in church world, this is important, right, Derek? Is like it's not, I'm not just helping you grow, be a better small group leader. It if it's it should.
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Help you as a mom or a dad. Right? Like if you learn how to ask great questions, something that's good for small group leaders to do. Like, can I take that into my job? Can I take that into my family? My home. Right? If I can take that into my friendships and things, like suddenly my own motivation for that has also now increased as well because I can see the context in which I would actually use this outside of just church world. I love it.
Yeah, and I it and and you know, I'd I I wanna give the umbrella one more time of what we're talking about, this idea that of like, you know, we've called it on on time training. I think your fourth key was this or whatever that that like y it's as people are going that you have a mechanism to come alongside them in the moment and go, Okay, here's and like I you know, I I w my my classic example of this a couple of years ago we started to invite
some of our other staff into training spaces. So we'll do these all day training days and our staff will go out into br breakouts and learn different things. And, you know, for a while it was kind of like me and a couple of our our other pastors that were doing the trainings. But we invited some of our staff people who were good at a certain thing to just be like, do a training on this thing that you're good at. And there was like, you know, three weeks before the event for all of them, this like, crap.
moment of hold on how do how do I do that? Like what do I do? And we had a training ready for that moment to go, here's how you lead just a great training space. Here are three things to do. And da da da and but like if at the beginning of the year we would have gathered our whole staff together and go, here's how to do a great training, when they weren't in the middle of it, there was no motivation for it, whatever, it's like that on time training when it's like you're already at the crap moment.
And now I just need to know information skills, competencies, like to help me. It's you and the white water rafting so I don't drown in whatever way it is. And it's just so much more effective than like a l information dump two years ahead of when you're actually gonna need it. Yep. And we watch that in G one of my favorite places with Jesus on that, right? Is I always love Mount of Transfiguration when they come down. Yeah. the three are up, but the nine are down.
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And apparently they were trying to do the stuff that Jesus had trained them in. It's like cast out demons and you know, whatever. The dads the dads comes and says, Hey, can you know Jesus, like these knuckleheads? this is the paraphrased version. but these like your your boys over here, like, my son is throwing in the fire, all these other things. Like your boys over here tried it, nothing happened. And Jesus is like, you know, cast out the demon, whatever else things. And I always wonder what it was like the long, quiet walk. How and then you kind of hear like,
And it says like then they gather together. What is the what do they ask? Basically, like, hey, why didn't it take? Like what like we did all the things. And he's like, this kind. Right. This kind of comes out with, you know, prayer and fasting and what you had just been doing. And you're I just laugh when I hear like read it. I'm like, I just like this is Jesus' development. Like, you didn't need to know this before because it wasn't important actually. I gave you what you needed to get going, and now you have a new level of like, okay, you're ready for more.
around this. And so yes, there's lots of times we're looking around and it's like, hey, this thing didn't take. it's like I think you're ready for more. It's so good. So good. So I a as w again, we look ahead to the church of the future. Like I I think one of those like horizon ideas is just and we we've man, this is so hard. I'm gonna say it recognizing that even though we've really tried to develop this area, we we still struggle so much as a church. But like
that staff are evaluated on who they develop and not just on what they've produced. And so, you know, it's this Ephesians four thing of just like, you are not here to just do the work of the ministry. You are here to equip other people to do it. And you know, it's really, really hard. And, you know, I'm curious to if you have any insights or you've seen it done well, where, you know, kind of leaders in the church are really
developing and being almost evaluated on what they're developing versus just getting stuff done. Yeah. I love that you're bringing it up. and naming it is hard and in the sense of we have to move and we we can say it's really easy to say, right? move from doers to developers around that. the the one side of it I just would name is like where it happens the best
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Or when you see it the best is at the top of the, you know, the the senior leaders have to model it in some way. Doesn't mean you're doing all the developing. It just means and I always think about it this way. I see this again, I'd I'd take this from rip this one off from Jesus as well. Mark three three, Luke six, most of what we do is just ripped off from Jesus, let's admit it. names matter.
So if can't name names, this is this is someone challenged me years ago on this, both in disciple making and discipleship and and leadership development. Names matter if you can't name names, it's probably not happening. So if you just start naming groups, like huge group, like area ministry areas and things, it's probably not happening. Like who, who right now are you developing? What are you developing them in? and if that starts even at the leader, the leader level, like the senior leader level of just who's the one or two people, it doesn't have to be a lot.
Just that this, this is prioritized here. This is one of our values here. I've watched, I mean, Derek, I've watched you guys like I still remember even when even some we were doing some of this training stuff with you guys, and it's like you you're like, I can fill a room with 150 people and I will move the room, right? And you're like, but we're not. Like we're going to develop other trainers who can train. We're gonna force ourselves and put ourselves in a
a regulator, if you will, that actually has a multiplication mindset. So we're regulating ourselves in the short term because we actually have a long term vision around that. And so that's one I mean, one thing I would name is like, can you name names? And the second thing I would just name is I think without a system and structure, like some language around this, I think that becomes just an idea. Like we don't have if we don't have some, what are some spans of care? What do we have a
Not just a staff org chart, do you have a leadership or chart org chart? And what I mean by that is just simply, hey, at different levels, where's our leaders? Where are leaders of leaders? You know, and you keep naming, you know, leader leaders over who have the potential to be leaders over whole ministry areas you know, in the future, if you don't have that structured as a team, just knowing what the structure is, not even built out, just knowing what the structure is, I think it makes it really hard then to know.
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Am I doing it? What should we be focusing on? Who are the few people? Cause it becomes overwhelming. Right. Like this is like I just look at the whole congregation and I'm like, I I don't know. I don't know where to begin. Yeah, it's so it's so so true. So so good. And I know, you know, I I I do that that's one of the what you named earlier is one the hardest things I've ever done. It was one of the biggest shifts I had to make because it's like when you're I I I know pastors, I'm a pastor, I've been doing this long. It's like when you when you feel like you're on to something.
It's like, let's fill the room. And and it's addition thinking and not multiplication thinking. Because the the way to think about it is to go, okay, wait, h how do we slow down? How do we actually invest in in trainers or multipliers and not just kinda fire hose it out to everybody? because then these trainers can go multiply it in in other spaces. And yeah, that's that's really, really good, Shane. You you've you've been so good good for us in that.
And and as we as as we think about leadership, you know, I think that a lot of churches get stuck into this mode of like, okay, if we need new leaders, we we've almost kind of outsourced this idea of just like Yeah. Okay, well we we really don't have anybody, so let's go look and you know, and so there's whole agencies and and not to throw anybody under the bus here, but I've said they're one of my goals. One of my goals in life is to put some of those agencies out of business because I want more churches.
Raising including ours, raising up leaders from within instead of using search, you know, headhunters, Christian headhunter organizations to go who's out there and let's bring them into our church. And you know, so I mean, would you just speak to that kind of like recognizing leaders from within versus kind of going from without? One of the things that I think's important to name right there is
A lot of times we're doing leadership placement, not leadership development. so when we're looking outside, we're doing we're looking at our congregation and we're going like we don't have any leaders. Well, what that is actually is a symptom, right? That's actually an indicator to us, because you do. Like you do have leaders. You don't have formed leaders yet. But you do like back to like think about our own stories. Like, how did we get here? Who was it that gave us spaces? there are
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Dozens of people sitting in our congregations who have the potential for leadership. So a couple of things I I think about a lot on this is we often are trying to to your point, like we're collecting leaders for the future. and we're waiting for those who have already like raised their hand and someone else has formed them, someone else has developed on them, and then we we have collected them in many ways. and again, what that is is like someone's raised their hand.
And already said I want to be a leader rather than we're doing some, you know, shoulder tapping, you know, along alongside there. So,
I'll name this too around that all those staffing agencies that you just talked about would all say they're running into the same challenge. it's red ocean out there. Like everyone's trying to get the few people who have already raised their hand and already been developed. They're looking for when the blue ocean is sitting in your congregation. like it is the blue ocean. Here, no one from the church down the street is coming and looking in your congregation for new leaders, but everybody's looking at the same little pool who have all put their names up.
And said, I'll be a leader and I'm a leader and I've already been developed. They're already doing that on those staffing organizations. So the conversation that I'm seeing rise to that is both exciting, encouraging, and a little bit concerning if we're not careful, is the rise of residencies. So now residencies are becoming one of the big things that we're hearing across kind of the national space because we're recognizing we don't have enough, you know, future pastors, future missionaries, future big L leaders, if you'll if you say it that way.
the problem I've seen on some of the residency side, which I love this, we're spending some time and energy around this. I and I could tap into this, but the the challenge if we're not careful, I'm watching that like residency programs now look nationally. Well, that it's the same problem. We've just moved it upstream. It's someone who's already raised their hand rather than and I want to just tell a story of my friend here, Ryan, who's just blown me away. And this is like why we're doing a lot of work around residency design.
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Accelerators. Ryan challenged me with this. Do you believe, Shane, that inside every pastor is a residency?
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Wow. Meaning that part of the the Second Timothy two, two, that which you has been entrusted to you, tr pass on to faithful men and women. right. that part of that is yes, the good deposit is doctrine, a lot, you know, is theology, but also that good deposit is like Derek, there are things that God has given to you. There's things that he's done in you. There's things that like that are like part of like who he's made you to be that need to
Part of your legacy is, and I'm s singling you out because you're in front of me. but this is for anyone who's listening, like, think about this for a minute, is part of your legacy is how do I pass that on? Who am I going to leave behind that I'm passing that on to? And then if how do you pull that out of a pastor or a leader? like immediately there's just energy. Like there's right, like you're like, I don't have to run a program. I actually like there are things in me that I'm stewarding around that. There are
people in our congregations that they don't know it. They're not raising their hand for vocational ministry, or they're not raising their hand for but they have the capability. Just no one's tapped them to say, like, I see this in you. and whether you end up in this end of vocational ministry or not, like you're someone I believe that I want to be a part of developing and passing on some of the good deposits in me.
into you. Like if that starts becoming some of the norm on a on a staff in a church, like it's gonna take some time. But in the next, you know, so here here's the here's the in doing this, they moved in the Midwest. This is a denominational team, but they moved from in the Midwest, they could find five six residencies, active residencies, as they started doing this, and over in a three year period that moved to 139
active residencies with 154 active residents in those in just a short period of time with just awakening the imagination of maybe the leaders are actually already sitting in your church. Wow. Yes. And maybe they're untapped, if you will, Shane. Hey, I've hurt someone who has I wish there was a book on that. Yeah, we don't have to go there.
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So listen, you've you've mentioned a couple of times challenging us to do it. You've mentioned your own saying you went goes back to fifteen years old when somebody saw leadership in you and gave you a chance and can you tell just give us a story about that? Like how did who who who was an early person or someone along the way who saw leadership in you and what did they do right that that helped you to step into that? Yeah. there's several leader you different seasons of my life, but I'll go early, early.
Rudy Sheptok, pastor, I think, still in in Pennsylvania, actually, I think. yeah, but this was my early, you know, teen years. Rudy started doing things even in in student ministry. I gave my first talk, which was a 10 minute talk at Christmas. I still remember. I sweated bullets, Derek.
on it ten minutes. But like I he w like so there was there was those elements giving giving space. he would say things like, hey, when you're in ministry, blah, blah, blah. I don't remember any of them. I don't remember the blah blah. What I remember is like, you actually think I can do what you do. He saw something. Yeah. Yeah. That I hadn't seen yet. And there was no pressure. There was no manipulation on it. I think that's another key thing. he gave me tasks. And what I mean by that is I think
Even as we think about leadership development stuff, we like we give people titles too early. he gave me, I would maybe say he gave me responsibilities and allowed me to fail in that. he took me to spaces. I that this is one of the developmental things I think that's like all of us can do. Like that doesn't add more to our plates. It's just whatever you're doing in leadership, is there some like can you bring someone along on that? And he would take us, you know.
So if there were several, he'd take three or four of us, hey, I'm going to speak at whatever, or hey, I'm I'm getting ready to do this leadership thing, and would invite our opinions, like our what I thought was our opinions. Really now I look back and realize he was trying to help our thinking, right, and our confidence. he gave us spaces to lead and fail. And I think I
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you know, mentioned this in other spaces, but like the we have to lower the excellence bar and the leadership development is just like just above the cringe factor. And Rudy was someone who like allowed things in the early days to be just above the cringe factor. he could have done it way better. and yet put us in spaces that we weren't even ready for. but that was actually no like, you know, you this is will ready you.
and it'd be okay. No, he didn't leave us there. He'd coach us afterwards, you know, move up. And so he's one of those spaces, one where one of the people I I should say that I think of that I look back on, it's like marked marked my early leadership journey. Yeah. That's great. The those the that I mean, that's just gold right there. I mean, those those principles I think are so universal what you just said, that it's just just phenomenal.
Hey, I want to give you the last word here. When we think about leadership development and moving from just programming information to like how do we do this relationally? Is there anything else, any other word you have about like, man, for the church of the future, here's what I would love to see, here's my dream, here's here's a word for just the the audience here about developing leaders. Yeah. I mean we talk about it. you you know, you've heard us probably say it before too, Derek, but it's if we would put as much
even 50% of the imagination that we have put into teaching the last 50 years, if we would put that in the training in the next 50 years. And I I the metaphor I often use around this is we need both wings of the airplane. Like which one, when you get on a plane, which one matters to you more? it's like both are important. we have a really great teaching wing. if we would
I think if we're gonna see the kind of movement I think that we all long for, the disciple making movement, the impact across our country, I think part of that is we've got to develop the other wing. and that's how we soar. Great word. Thanks so much, Shane. This has been incredible. Appreciate your wisdom so so much. Yeah, thank you, brother. Always fun. Thanks. Okay, so five thousand principles. Right. but let's Shane is just a fountain.
EP47 Transistor (01:07:44.114)
I yeah. I'm always impressed by him and yeah, he just is he's awesome. Yep. however, not no not however. But let's okay. I really do want to start with the cringe factor thing. Okay. So Rudy is it yeah, okay. No, I I'm not I'm not saying it 'cause I take issue with it. It's just 'cause it it goes against my personality. yeah, what are you yeah, what are your thoughts on it? I I I th you think about like it w it
Part of it it goes aga so if we're making this shift from attractional conditional multiplication, I understand. One of the deeply embedded things is this I mean, how many churches had as their core value excellence? Okay. Right? Yeah. And including us. Yeah. And so it's like, does that is that of value? Does that shift or not? Here's the thing. For some cultures, it is a true value. Sure. Like it's not but
I do think it's misused. Because I don't know that excellence means excellence or excellence. Yeah. I don't know that excellence means perfection. Right. But it means whoever's doing it is doing their best. Right. And so, yeah, okay, fine. Technically, above the cringe factor could be thought of as excellent because they're doing it and you're getting them there. Yeah. Cause it is, yeah, but he is right. That is like a lit l litmus test. Sure. Yeah. Of just like
You know, if someone stands up and I'm thinking of service hosting, I don't know why, like if someone stands up and is like doing a welcome to a meeting or a service or whatever. Yeah. You know in your heart whether or not you feel like, my gosh, I hope they can get through this and everything will be okay and they won't cry at the end. And that's the that's the cringe factor. Yeah, that's cringe. But like
And there's a yeah, there's a step above that that's like, okay. Yeah. So I think diff different people have different lines that they draw. Like I think about Craig Groeschel says something about eighty percent. Like if if somebody can do it eighty percent as good as you could do it with with the potential for to go to a hundred and ten percent, maybe better than you, give a shot. Yeah. So like when they get to eighty percent, throw in. So that's way above the cringe. Way above cringe, yeah. You know, I think a line that we've drawn before is, you know, we've talked about the good enough
EP47 Transistor (01:10:01.046)
Yeah. You know, the good enough principle. So you could be working and working and working on a graphic design for something and it's not perfect. Yeah, but it's like good enough. It'll pass. it'll pass. And you know, so that's somewhere above the cringe factor. But you know, probably not right at the line, but a like a little bit above. But I I think those are all good things just to wrestle with. Yeah. Just like what do we because the payoff is you get to develop somebody. Right.
Who's not necessarily ready to do this yet. Correct. And I think about that a lot. I know I'm being like a dumb about this, but it is truly like a conviction of mine. Yeah. And but I also remember doing things well before I should have been doing things. Exactly. And so it's interesting because it's almost like you can develop yourself out. You can be developed so well. Yeah. Or have a journey that, you know, you're learning and learning and learning.
that your standards just subconsciously raise. Right. And like there's no way I was doing half the stuff that Owen, for example, who's like producing this. Right. Yeah. I was like putting photos in front of a camera and like clicking it on and off. Like I wasn't like record and pause, record and pause. Yeah. It's like yeah, your standards just evolve. Yeah. And you forget where you came from. A hundred percent like, man, somebody gave me a shot when I was really bad at preaching. Right. Like I look back and go, Whoa, I I I have I have a case a cassette
Tape of my bonus episode. But no, yeah. No, because of this. But my version of that is like I remember sitting on a bus in the middle of Pennsylvania. We had two buses. I was only on one bus. And I looked and someone asked me a qu there was like a little crisis. And I looked and I was like, why am I one
It's me. It's me. This is not good. But yeah, but I That's another principle we use, the you're it principle. Yeah. But also like looking back, like those types of moments. Right. I I was like a little like teary eyed thinking about it earlier in the day. Like I don't want to rob people from those. Exactly. Even though it might be embarrassing or like difficult or whatever. So yeah.
EP47 Transistor (01:12:14.624)
It is it is a thing where, you know, we've talked about it often, like, especially with our volunteer culture and otherwise, it's just like I tell church leaders all the time, like, you know the feeling, you know the feeling when you walk away from something and go, my goodness, God used me. Yeah. And like for me, it's like when I go home at the end of a Sunday and crash onto my couch exhausted and like start to cry because I'm like, I can't believe God let me do this. Like I can't believe I get to do this.
And that God would use a person like me. I know that there was power in the room. I know that the move the needle for some people. And what I would say is when it comes to this leadership development, when you do everything yourself and don't give people that shot somewhere above the cringe factor, you're hogging that feeling for yourself. You're not giving them a chance to crash on a couch at the end of a thing that they weren't ready for. Right. And go.
Can't believe it. God used me. Yeah. You know, and it's that feeling of being used by God that we get to share. And if we don't share it, we just hog it. Right. Which is not the right thing. No, not at all. And you don't feel like you're hogging it unless you can self evaluate, you you gotta like stop. Yeah. And think about it. and that goes too, I think, to like the take one person. You're getting there, the take one person with you thing that you guys talked about. Yeah. Yeah. And just how
I think it's a good takeaway. yeah, like just the idea again, the idea of like looking at your calendar, right, and saying, I have these meetings, let me just open you've did you've did a semi recently with people. Is there someone on my team that wants to come with me? Yeah. That's a great practical step. Yeah. we could talk about this forever. Yep. And I don't want to. We may already have. Yeah, sorry. no. So let's end it there. So yeah, that's a good practical step. Like look at your calendar, pick like
one meeting even next month where you think, maybe I'll invite someone to come with me and see see what happens. The whole idea of just like carrying it with you, walking with people. Yeah. if we can get back to that, that would be really beautiful. Dust of the rabbi. That's right. all right. So next week we'll be back with another everyday influencer episode. Brittany will be our our subject, if you will. and so
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As always, you can go to Dereksanford.com and you can subscribe to Ordinary Altar, his newsletter, and get any kind of resources and tools that you might be interested in, including old episodes of Reinventing Church. So if you don't know what we're talking about, you can go back and figure it out. Yep. All right, thanks for joining us and we'll see you soon. Bye.