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The collected stories of people making things that matter and inspiring others to do the same.
Hello friends and welcome to the Story Forge podcast, where we believe making things matters. And we talk to people we've met along our journey, uh, who are doing just that, making something, a thing, a product, a service, an idea that matters to other people, matters to the world, makes things better or easier, or just more exciting to be around.
I'm Lyle Smith, your host. I'm a runner, a dad, a husband to an exceedingly accomplished acupuncturist. I'm a writer, a storyteller, a hiker, partly because I'm new to Boulder County, Colorado, and that's where today's story begins. I met James Whittaker on a hike in Boulder, Colorado. A couple of months ago, I attended several days of an event called Boulder Startup Week and discovered a group that does monthly networking events out on the trails surrounding Boulder.
My first event, uh, there were about 20 or more people hiking up and up. And up on the Mount Sinaitis trail. I figured it would be about an hour and I could meet a few folks, start a few conversations if I was lucky, and then get back to work. Um, more than two hours later, I was tired and thirsty and still out there talking to new friends.
We talked. Business and Lego. James has three young kids who love the bricks as much as my son Aidan does, and the more we chatted, the more intrigued I became in what he was doing to rethink the way executives make career transitions. And so I asked him if he'd like to chat here, and I have to tell you I've listened to all sorts of stories here and found them all to be valuable.
Some really even spectacular. But there was something about the way James thought through his business and was completely open about sharing his successes and his challenges along the way, uh, that made this one especially helpful to me. His business is nothing like mine, but I took away so much I'm already putting to use every day.
I hope you find it as useful as I have. Now, here's my new friend, James Whitaker.
Very good. Yeah. So I want, you know, I often wonder, cause I have, my cousins are in Ireland and they're all, they, they don't drink coffee. They drink tea. And so you just went, you went decaf. How long ago was that? About a year, a year and a bit. So my, my wife had surgery and so she couldn't, she couldn't drink coffee.
She couldn't drink caffeine. She couldn't drink alcohol. So, um, um, Well, I actually stopped both at the same time. Okay. I kind of did cold turkey on both of them. Um, I was like, wait a second. I feel awesome. So kind of just now it's become a bit of a, a bit of a thing where I'm like, it's been a year plus. So now I'm like, I, I kind of don't want to go back.
Yeah, no, I know that I did kind of the same thing. I had a, you know, one of those, a dry January or whatever. And it was just kind of like, You just feel good. So I'm like, you know, why not? Why was I doing it in the first place? I don't know. No judgment. Yeah, no, I know. But, uh, it seems to be working for me, so I'll just leave it alone.
It's very good. How are you doing? You're, you're at home now. You're at home office. Home office. Yep. Very good. People always say, is it real? They're like, oh, I like your virtual background. I'm like, grab a book to show that it's actually real. I did that when we moved from, I don't have my fancy background anymore.
I had built in bookshelves in my house in Florida before we moved here. Yeah, that was, that was my background. So I put up certain books for certain people and, but, uh, so we met, we met on a hike, you and I, and so I thought that was cool. And we're both, we were both kind of new to Boulder, uh, you know, you were newer than me, but it's, uh, still new.
Um, and I, I found that kind of interesting cause the whole idea that people do networking events out on a hiking trail was kind of, you know, Weird and curious and fun for me. What'd you think of that? Yeah. I mean, it's very, it's very Colorado. I think that's the first thing to say. Uh, but I thought it was awesome.
It's because it's nice when you're in a group of people, you kind of mingle around when you're hiking, because sometimes you go faster and slower, you know, compared to when you're just standing around in a room. I, to me, I think it's, it's much better. I think it was great. And we had, I don't know, 20 or 30 people there in the whole group.
And then, uh, some of us went the whole hike. Yeah. And, uh, it was good cause you kind of bounce around and, and, you know, we didn't, we didn't start talking until at least halfway or more into the, into the hike. So it was, it was kind of nice. And, um, so as, as my, my listeners can hear, uh, you're, you're from, uh, you're not a native American or not a native Colorado either.
So, uh, you're not the first, you know, I have my friend, uh, Uh, my friend from Scotland on a while ago, but, um, so where, so tell me, tell me where you come from. What's your, uh, what's your background? Uh, we talked about it a little bit, but yeah, so I originally grew up, uh, in North Wales, which is, it was in the middle of nowhere, lots of mountains kind of place where there's, there's more sheep than people.
Um, literally, and, and so I, I was there for the first, you know, 18 years in my life. Then I moved to England. To for college to Manchester. Okay. Uh, and then moved around, like bounced around a bit. I was in New York for quite a while. Um, and then obviously now in Colorado. Very good. Very good. So that's, it's a North whale.
So are you, do you, are you Welsh or are you, did you learn Welsh growing up? I did. Yeah, I did learn Welsh when I, when I grew up. So it's. It's my, my parents. So I have one, one English parent, one Welsh parent, um, didn't really speak Welsh in the house, but you have to learn in school. So it was, it was one of these things where it is, it was, you know, often in school you learn English, you know, you learn English literature and all that stuff, and then you learn another language.
Well, our other language was Welsh. You have to learn Welsh. Um, and so, you know, I was, Language was never my, my real strong point. Um, but I used to be able to speak relatively well these days. Not so much. Cause I've been away for so long. Um, yeah. If you don't use it, you kind of lose it. Um, I've noticed that my wife says that my wife took French for years and years and she's always looking for somebody to speak French too.
So, um, it, it, she says the same thing. She says, Oh, I'm not very good. But then I, I, I hear her speaking and I'm like, Hmm, you seem pretty good to me. Yeah. She'd be able to get around. Paris without any trouble, um, but have you, have you found, have you found that background in, uh, in language or Welsh or I presume some Welsh history as well, you know, cause I come from my, uh, I'm, I'm, you know, New Jersey, American, Myself as far back as I go, but I have cousins in Northern Ireland.
I have cousins in other places in Ireland. And, um, and so I kinda, I know that history of, of my background and I know, you know, we've visited places in Ireland where up in the Northwest where they speak Irish as a first language and stuff like that. And I always found that to be very interesting. And knowing the little bit of Welsh history that I know, um, I, I find it fascinating, and I find the fact that they, they have a, an ongoing effort to keep the language alive, uh, is pretty inspiring.
Uh, but do you find, having grown up in it, do you find any use in it? That's a really good question. I mean, I think, you know, growing up somewhere where you have, where the history is all around you, and You know, it's funny when, when, when I'm, when I moved, uh, to where my wife is from on Long Island. Uh, we lived there for a little bit and there's, there's the oldest house in the oldest building in the town.
It's like 200 years old. Most people I know live in 200 year old houses back where I, where I grew up. And so being around that level of history and, you know, Oh, there's, there's a castle that was built a thousand years ago and it's just there in the town, you know, it's, it's, I mean, I think it does give you a kind of.
An interesting perspective on, you know, on, on, on history and on where kind of you came from. Um, because, you know, the U S is very new and I, and I think that's, that's interesting. That was interesting for me when I moved here. Um, just how new, and it's funny, you know, moving to Boulder and you see these pictures from Boulder a hundred years ago and there was like nothing here.
Yeah. So it's amazing how stuff has developed in the past kind of hundred years. Um, but it's, you know, there's definitely a kind of stretched out timeline coming from somewhere like Wales where there's all that history all around you. Right. Yeah. I've always felt, you know, cause I, I, again, my cousins in Ireland and, and, and, you know, my grandfather was born in Gateshead in England and, um, so I, I always have a strong sense of.
Um, connection to these places, uh, even I've never been to Gateshead, but I've been to Ireland numerous times and, and other places, but it's, it, I feel a sort of strong sense of connection there, but to come, you know, living here in America, things are. You know, you say new, but they're, they're new and they get replaced and they get changed and they get, you know, there's, there's, there's a safe, you know, you were, you lived in New York for a time.
You said, I don't know how long, uh, but I lived in New Jersey and worked in New York for a long time. And, and you see the way New York and Manhattan in particular changes over time. And there's a pace to it that, that you don't get in other places in the world. Um, that's kind of interesting. So you've you've moved and and it seems to me people people generally the people I've known from Europe and from England, uh, maybe in particular, they, they don't move around the way, um, Americans do.
Um, that's just sort of a natural migratory pattern. Um, how, how have you gotten into that? I mean, 'cause you, you, I mean, I mean you, you did the, the move from Wales to England for college, but then, you know, you came to America. That's kind of a big move at some point. How did that happen? Yeah, it's a good point.
It's, it's, yeah, I'm trying to think whether I agree with that statement about people do. I think it's true. I think it's, it's, it's probably more true. Mostly true. Maybe not even, maybe not fundamentally. I think in the UK there's a lot of, there's a lot of Europeans. So there's a lot of Spanish, Portuguese, Polish people, uh, who've moved to the UK.
I think people in the UK don't move that, move abroad that much for whatever reason, which is quite interesting because. Well, it's probably because they all left to go to America a hundred years ago, all the people that wanted to leave already have, um, which is interesting. And actually I was reading something about this, about how there is a certain mindset in the U S because like, it's almost a passed down or, you know, not, not genetic, but it's passed down through the generations of these are the people who wanted to make that change in their lives.
So it's, it's that, you know, it's, it's that kind of. Almost growth mindset, like there's something better out there for me. And I'm going to take this boat overseas. You know, I might die on the journey kind of thing, but I'm still, I believe in that new life over there. Um, and then you kind of pass that down to your kids.
So I think. That definitely drives the way people are in the U. S. So that I think that's probably why. Right. Interesting. So like where, like you personally, your, your parents, you said you had one Welsh parent, one English parent. Did, did they, uh, I'm going to get to a couple of questions about this, but like in your background, did they, did they move around a lot?
Did they, uh, have that, you figured growth? Cause you, you say you grew up in a small place where there were more sheep than people. Yeah. I mean, I grew up in the same kind of town, uh, you know, small town in New Jersey, but a lot of people would travel to New York for the, uh, for work, you know, so it was sort of a commute commuter town.
Um, and we were a very, very old town of, of, you know, 200 years. And, uh, um, so how do you, how do you Was there an influence for that type of, you know, growth movement expansion? Cause when you live in a small town, a lot of times there's a, there's sort of a, um, uh, a gravity to keep you there. You sort of, sort of twin mindsets.
There's people who can't wait to get out. And then there's people who, who just kind of feel anchored there and their families have been there for. Well, I think, I was going to say, you know, When I was in school, it was definitely a mix of people who were, they, you, they were always going to live there.
They were always going to live in the kind of small town. They'd get a house like on the same street as their parents. And then there was the other group who were just. And I was, I was definitely in that group, um, so, you know, I, I went to university obviously as soon as I could. And from there, there was no, there was never any thought about moving back.
Uh, I think, you know, once you, once you discover that there's so much more in the world than the small town in North Wales, which was great, but you know, it was a nice place to grow up, but there's a lot more to the world than, than, than that town. Yeah. Yeah. And so, um, yeah, so, so I think for me, it was, it was just a natural progression.
I've always liked exploring. I've always liked just learning new things. And I think that's just part of what's happened. And then over time, you know, as I got married and had kids, it's been It's been this desire to find the place that's the right place for us. And that's why we were in the UK for a bit in town, a city called Bristol.
Um, we moved back to New York and now we're in Colorado and it's just, you know, it's that ever evolving goal of, well, what's the perfect kind of place for us? And I think we're, we're getting pretty close now. It's yeah, we've had, um, It's, we, we really, a friend of mine said the other day, it looks like you've, uh, internalized Colorado or something like that, where it's like, you know, you know, he's like, I see your pictures that you're posting and blah, blah, blah.
And uh, so yeah, we feel kind of the same way. My wife has always kind of, she lived here years ago and has always felt the draw to come back. Um, you know, whereas I, when we, we left Florida for a variety of reasons that I won't get into here, uh, and it was either kind of moved back to the New York, New Jersey area, or, you know, well, how about Colorado?
And that's, so we ended up coming out here and we took a visit and decided, yeah, this seems like the place. And, um. Um, but it's funny. You have those people who can't wait to get away. You made me think of, uh, you know, like Bruce Springsteen songs, right? Born to run, can't get out of, can't get, can't wait to get away from this place, blah, blah, blah.
Um, ironically, he lives now about 10 miles from the house where he grew up in, in New Jersey, but he traveled the world and continues to travel the world. So there's always that, that non, that, that battle against provincialism, I think. Um, So how about, um, yeah, I want to get to university in Manchester, which is to my understand, I've never been there.
It's sort of a, uh, sort of industrial town, right. Or historically industrial town anyway. Correct. Yes. Um, and then, um, off to, I know you ended up at Deloitte for some time. Um, how, how was there something in between there? Was it you with, how did, how did, how did that journey happen? Yes, good question. So I, so I, I, I, when I finished school and I was deciding what I wanted to do at university, I didn't really have any clue.
Um, and you know, my parents were, they, they were, you know, fairly successful in the local town. Right. And then, you know, and we, so we, you know, we were, We never kind of did without as, as kids, but they weren't, they weren't necessarily the worldly wise people who'd be able to say, Hey, do this. And this is the outcome.
And then blah, blah. So, so I just decided that, you know, I really liked science. Uh, and so I decided to do chemistry. Okay. Is that what you studied? So I studied chemistry. Yeah. So I, a master's, master's degree in chemistry. Okay. And, and as I was, you know, I, I enjoyed it. It was fun. Made lots of friends, uh, got, you know, got a, a first class degree, which is like, similar to like a 4.0 GPA kind of thing.
So I did well. But as I was going through, I knew that I never wanted to do chemistry as a job because being in the lab, you know, not talking to people Right. Just, it's, it just was, and it's actually. Interestingly, especially academia and other things that they're very ruthless, incredibly ruthless. It's crazy.
People don't, they don't work together very well. It's, it's, it's a very interesting kind of environment. This, this isn't really for me. So, um, so what do you do, right? You've got a master's degree in chemistry, um, and no real idea of what to do next, but you've got, you know, you've got this quite well thought of degree, um, from a good university.
So, um, So I just went out and tried to find what I wanted to do next. So the first thing that I looked into was becoming a patent attorney. Uh, and so essentially what that is, is writing patents. So, you know, someone, some company comes up with a new chemical formula. You need somebody to be able to understand the chemistry.
and understand the legal side of things. So you can write patents, you know, and so, you know, that's, it's pretty interesting, pretty lucrative, but really, really hard to get into. I had, I think, well, I, I said, so this is actually where my, my journey towards kind of career development and helping people with their careers for a start, because I tried to apply to some of these jobs that I found online.
Right. Didn't get anything. Right. So I was like, what can I do differently? So I just, I, I, I wrote out about a hundred letters specifically saying why I was, you know, what was good about me, what I liked to that kind of that firm that I was writing to. And I got four interviews. I was like, this, this works a lot better than just applying with, With my, you know, not a very good resume at the time.
Um, but I didn't get any of the interviews because it was, I was up against people that had PhDs. And so their chemistry knowledge was just so much better than mine. Uh, and so, so it was kind of getting to the point where I didn't really have anything lined up and I had maybe six months left of, of university.
And, um, and one of my friends got hired by Deloitte and I looked into it and I was like, Oh, this actually seems, this consulting thing actually seems pretty good. So I did some more research. Turns out they really like people with science degrees. Um, particularly in, in the UK because you know, it's, it's that kind of problem solving type.
Obviously people with business degrees and economics, they get preference, but you know, if you can prove yourself, then science is something that they, they'll, they'll consider. And so, and so, yeah, so I kind of went through the process and then got a couple of offers from a few different companies similar to Deloitte.
And. Deloitte was the one that I, I, I kind of resonated with me. So that's where I ended up. Terrific. Yeah. Um, so you said your, your parents were, were, you know, fairly successful in town, in, in your region, in your area. Yeah. Um, I always, I find myself asking this question a lot of, of people on this. On the show, just, just cause they're all kind of in that same mode.
Did you have a background or any, any understanding of, um, I'm skipping ahead here from the, from the consulting part, we'll talk about that again in a minute. But, uh, any background understanding of entrepreneurial and the entrepreneurial world and, and, and where that comes from. Cause like I grew up, uh, my dad was a corporate guy.
My mom was a school teacher. I had none of that in my background. And I had some of that from my wife's family. Uh, her dad was a veterinarian who had two practices of his own. She had her own acupuncture business. And, um, and that's kind of, she asked me one day, can you do this on your own? And I, so I left the agency and started my own thing.
Did you have anything like that? Any, any, any influence from anybody that kind of showed you that was possible? Yes and no, I'd say. Because, so my, my dad went kind of on his own. Um, so, so he was a, he was a financial advisor. Uh, booked for, I 25 years for, for a couple of companies. Um, and then had a chance to kind of go on his own same, same kind of thing.
Uh, it wasn't, it wasn't fully out on his own. Cause he was, he was kind of tied to that. So he was like independent, but kind of tied to the company as well. He like sold their products, but he wasn't actually employed by them. Right. And, and it's actually, it's interesting. I A lot of, I'd say some of the things not to do in a, in a, in an organization because he was very, he.
He, he was kind of the, the kind of person that, that just wants to do everything themselves be in control. And so, you know, he was successful, but he, he did a lot. He just worked himself. He was like, he, he was the business. And so I suppose, you know, like I said, yes and no, because I, you know, I learned that it was possible, but I also learned that you probably, when, when you start a business, you don't just want to make it into a job.
You want to make it something where you have, you know, even if it's. It's a handful of contractors working for you, even if it's, you know, just this, there's a few, there's a few of you or, you know, or you have a larger business, right? It's not that just kind of creating your own job is not necessarily the way to go.
Um, but I do remember what this, this wasn't anyone particular, but I remember when I was younger and, and I had, I just remember this, this moment where just thinking about people like Richard Branson and all these people who were super successful and super rich. Um, and I, I couldn't necessarily, no one told me this and I couldn't see a pathway to get there necessarily, but I was like, well, I can't, why can't I do it?
Like they, if they've done it, like what's stopping me doing it? There's nothing special about them. And I just remember that was kind of, and not that it, it was probably another 12 years before I actually started a business after having that epiphany, but I do remember that. Well, it's interesting. I think about that Branson, especially, uh, you know, and, and to say, you know, there's nothing special about him is, a little bit of a misnomer because I think, I think there are special things about him in particular, but people like, uh, but I think there's, there's nothing more special about him than anybody else.
We all have special things. We just have to kind of figure out what they are. And, uh, you know, if they're, if they're marketable and how to, how to operate a business, cause you, it's that you're talking about that, you know, working. working in your business versus working on your business kind of a thing, right?
So it's, and I, it's something I wrestle with all the time. We've talked about this. Um, and it's, uh, it's hard, you know, um, my wife's had the same problem with her acupuncture practice in that. You know, you, you grow to a certain size and you're all of a sudden you're like, you know, but people are coming here for me.
They're not coming here for some special method of things that we do here. It's like, they're coming for me. So you can only grow to a certain size when you're doing it that way. And, and so that's interesting. So, um, back to Deloitte. How, you know, you started, you know, more or less the first job out of college and you're, so you're, you're in this consulting world.
Um, what kind of stuff were you doing as a, as a scientist in a business consulting firm? Yeah, that's a good question. So, so it was, it was, so I was working in a lab a little bit, um, before I started at Deloitte and then, and then, and then I started and, and, Um, and fortunately, so the way it works in the UK, which is different to the U S is pretty much everybody that goes into a, into one of these large accounting firms, consulting firms, um, has to do what's well.
So if you're, if you're in anything to do with the cat, so I was in tax consulting. So anything that has any kind of accounting kind of persuasion, you have to, uh, you have to study for something called you to, to become a chartered accountant. Okay. Uh, which is kind of the, it's kind of like a CPA in the U S it's, it's, but it's a lot more than that.
So, so, so even if you come in with an accounting degree, you still have to do this. Um, and so it doesn't really matter what, you know, necessarily what degree you have. So, um, so I actually worked in, like I said, tax consulting and economic consulting, it was specifically. And, uh, and so I spent probably the first two and a half years out of college, just.
Doing loads more exams, um, and, and getting this, this certification as a chartered accountant. Right, right. So that's sort of, that's like almost a licensing thing, sort of like a, like a series seven for accounting, right? Similar. Yeah, exactly. Something like that, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Because I wonder, because it's different, you know, on both sides of the ocean here.
So it's, it's, there's different education, different certifications, that kind of stuff. Um, so what kind of, what kind of consulting did you do once, once you got past that and you know, now you're into, you know, I'm getting, I want to get at sort of like, what did I learn here? You know? Yeah. Well, it's, it's, it's funny cause not, not much from chemistry really was very helpful in what I was doing.
Yeah. Yeah. Because I was, so I specifically working in a, in a field called transfer pricing, uh, which is something that almost nobody knows about, which is quite, which is quite interesting. It's, um, essentially I'll, I'll, I'll explain it as quickly as I can. So multinational companies have obviously different subsidiaries in different places around the world, right.
And if these rule, if these rules didn't exist, it didn't exist, the transfer pricing rules, right. What a company would do is they would. They would manufacture something, um, in, you know, the U. S. for example. Um, they would, and then they would sell it to, you know, Another company overseas, right? They would transfer that.
It's the same, it's the same overall business, but they're selling it from the U S subsidiary to, you know, let's say Singapore, for example. So U S the tax rate is, you know, it used to be 30 percent rise lower now. Um, Singapore is like five or whatever it is. So what happens is in the, they will charge a price.
Uh, which means that in the U S they make no profit in Singapore, they make all their profit. So they don't pay any tax at 30 percent in the U S right. They pay all their tax at 5 percent in Singapore, right? If these rules didn't exist, that's what every company would do. Now, obviously the U S government says, wait a second, that's not fair, right?
We've done all this stuff to, to, you know, all the people in the U S have manufactured it, they've designed it. And now. We're not getting any money because you're selling it for nothing. And so we're not making any profit on it, whereas we're making all the profit in Singapore. Um, and so the job that I had, uh, was basically ensuring that companies aligned with the rules that exist internationally to be able to do that.
Um, and it's all about bench, it's all about economic benchmarking. So it's like, well, what do two unrelated companies. That do this to sell a similar product from the U S to Singapore. What price do they sell out? Um, and then, and there's just different, you know, economic models and tools that you use to determine that.
And obviously you work for the company. So your job is to push, push the envelope as much as you can so they can save as much tax as they can. while still remaining within the rules. So that's, that's kind of what I did. I, it's really funny you mentioned this because I, I've done, uh, a fair amount of, of writing for delight over the years, contract, uh, ghostwriting and copywriting and stuff.
And I have worked for that, Group here in America writing, you know, articles on the changing law and how it's, how it's changing from one to another and blah, blah, blah. And so I know, um, I am by no means an expert, but I am this much more familiar with it than the average bear. Uh, so I think that's very funny, but, uh, yeah, so it's, it's really, it's one of those things that's, that seems if you're not involved in it, it seems sort of, Uh, the boring and on, on, on, uh, less than understandable maybe.
Uh, but it's, it's something that's really kind of important to the different divisions of these companies in order to make things work and profitable and. All that. Yeah, the tax implications are not insignificant. Um, cool. So you're working on that. And, and so you now fast forward, you're, you're sort of to sort of your end time at, at Deloitte.
Um, and, uh, when do you come, when did you come here? When do you come to America? So moved to the U S in 2015. So almost, yeah, actually it's going to be, it's going to be 10 years. In a couple of months. In a few months. Great. Um, and that, so, which is crazy actually. So, so yeah, so, so I moved over, um, and yeah, this was getting towards the end of my career.
So I was at, I, I was at the upper levels, uh, of, of my, my department at that point. Okay. Um, and, uh, this is when I had to make a decision because. Um, there's, so if you know anything about the, the, the, the big consulting companies, the ultimate goal of most people that were there is to become a partner. Um, you know, they make a good amount of money, um, and it's a very prestigious role.
And so my, my decision at that time was, well, I can spend the next three, four years really working hard. And, and, you know, I've got a really good chance of getting this right. this, this role, because, you know, people were supporting me and telling me that I could do it, right. But I, but I always had this, this idea in my mind that I wanted to have my own business.
And honestly, working as, working as a partner at one of those companies, you have to really love it. Like I know, I know there's two types of people I know who, who, who are in that position. There's what, on one hand, the people who just love it. They're like, they don't care how hard they work. They love meeting with.
CFOs from, you know, Amazon and all these massive companies. And it's just like, it gives them something internally. Right. So they make, you know, a million dollars a year in some cases. Right. On the other hand, you've got the people who did it just because they're like, Hey, this is a great job, but I can make loads of money and they're just miserable.
Right. I knew I, I knew that if I did it, I would be in that second bucket. Uh, so I was like, this is a really pivotal part of my life and I, I don't, I, if I go down this pathway, I know what's going to happen because I just didn't have that like massive, massive desire to be in that type of role and like people I saw who, who were already doing that.
So, so that's when, that's when I was like, well. What do I do now? Right. So had you moved, had you moved to New York as a, as, as a Deloitte person, or had you moved? Did that come later? Yeah. So I moved, I moved as a Deloitte person. They, they helped me, um, in terms of, you know, visa stuff. Um, and it was because of my, um, my wife, my now wife.
Right. So we, we, we met, I think in 2000. Well, we met before this, actually. We met, we met in Africa, but that's a totally different story. Which we can get into. That's another episode. We, we, uh, yeah, so we, we, we met a while ago and then we kind of reconnected and then we, long, long story, but anyway, so we were trying to figure out how to, how to be in the same place.
Right. So, so that's why I ended up moving to Deloitte in New York. And so, so yeah, so it was, so, and then. It was still about another three years between moving to New York and actually, uh, finishing and starting what I've, what I've, what I'm now doing. Right. That's interesting. So, um, you said, um, it's fine.
I got a lot to think about here cause I have, I have a good friend of mine, um, who's, who's a partner at Deloitte. He's, uh, uh, Jeff, I know you listen to the show. So if you're listening, hi, uh, Jeff loves it. Jeff loves it. He really does. He's really good at it. And he's, he works in what I think is a really interesting, um, area because he's, he's come up through sort of the retail.
Uh, part of the world and, um, and they do really interesting stuff and a lot of fun. And he's, he's, uh, uh, he's been a good friend from the time we were teenagers, uh, until now. And, uh, uh, so I've seen kind of how Deloitte works from the outside that way, which is really pretty cool. Um, Yeah. At least in that area, but I can see where, you know, if, if you're not into that, you know, cause he travels a lot, he does, um, that might get hard for me to do all the time.
So, you know, I get it, you know, I get, there's a lot of things in jobs that, that maybe didn't match. And plus you said, you know, you sort of had an idea for this a long time ago is like how you might. Do things a different way, which is kind of the key to any entrepreneurial effort. Uh, and then somehow you, you started this thing.
Um, the ambitious exec, uh, tell me about that. How did that come to be? Yeah. You've come to New York, you and your, you and your wife, uh, Sue or soon to be wife at that point are in the same place. Um, and then somewhere along the line, you want to make the jump into doing your own thing. Yeah. So this is a good question.
So I remember, again, one of these epiphany moments, I remember we had a, we had a whiteboard in the kitchen where we used to write down like, you know, groceries and stuff. And I remember, I remember once my wife, Amanda, my wife and I, we were sitting down and we were coming up with ideas for potential businesses.
Right. And I, and I remember one of them was helping people get a kind of corporate job. Um, and the reason it came about was people as, you know, as a senior person at Deloitte, people had been asking me and I'd helped, I'd already cut, you know, Um, kind of coached a few people to, to being able to do it, how there was what my, um, my brother's best friend, he ended up getting a job at Deloitte after I coached him through some of the stuff.
So it was like, there was a few people I'd already helped do this. Uh, and so it was almost like a natural progression. Now it wasn't, that wasn't actually the first business that I, that I started though. I, I, I had, um, I had a few different businesses and it's funny looking back on how, how I terrible they were, the ideas and the implementation now, but, uh, I did actually, so I had, I had a small, um, online, like online shop where we used to sell, um, we used to source like men's accessories and then, and then sell them.
It was fine. We made a little bit. I actually sold that business for like 20 grand or something. I don't know. It was so not, not, not, not gonna, uh, you know, nothing that I could retire on, but, um, but that was kind of my first foray. And then, um, and at the same time I was developed, I was developing this, um, and, and it started off.
So we've actually been through a few iterations of this business. First of all, it was just helping people that wanted to get into consulting because that's what I knew. And that's why I'd already helped people. Right. What happened was as we were going out and marketing this. People were coming and joining and wanting to get coached.
And they were saying, I don't actually want to get a job in consulting, but what you're teaching just really resonates with me. Right. And so, and so at that point, this was probably about a year into doing it. It was like, well, why, why don't we expand and help more people? Um, it worked well. Problem was, we ended up helping too many people.
We were trying to help people who were Just out of college and I remember this at the time we had, I was, I had, I had a couple of coaching calls. One was with someone who was just out of college and one was with the chief marketing officer of WeWork. I was like, this is crazy. This is, this is not, this is just not aligned enough.
Right. There's something we need to do. So what we did, uh, was I was like, well, who do I like working with the most? Who do I think I can get the most results for? Who do I actually want to serve? And that's when we decided that we wanted to focus only on that higher level executive type person. I was like, well, I know what it's like.
I've, I've been at that level, um, at Deloitte, you know, they're the kind of people that I enjoy speaking with, you know, people that know what they want, you know, when you're talking to a student, someone who's like 21 years old, that they have, they don't really have any idea. I knew, I know I didn't, when I was that age, um, I preferred talking to people who knew what they wanted to do.
I had no idea how to do it. I want to make this move, but I haven't got a new job in 30 years. Like, what do I do? What do I do? And, um, and one thing that I, I failed to mention actually, so when I was at Deloitte, I was actually, I was part of the hiring team. So although my day job was as an economic consultant, I, I used to interview people to join our team and join other teams.
We used to review resumes, et cetera, et cetera. So, uh, you know, I understood what it was like. being on the inside of a big organization in terms of being on the hiring team, right? And particularly with Deloitte, so this crazy statistic that our CEO used to talk about, a guy called Punit Ranjan, and he used to say, uh, Deloitte is harder to get into than Harvard University based on the statistics, because the two, only 2 percent of the of resumes that are submitted actually end up in the people getting hired, which is lower than the, than the acceptance rate into Harvard.
Right. Wow. That's crazy. I know I, well, I can sort of attest to that. I've, I've, I've, I've tried a couple of times and, and, uh, I've ended up as a contractor, which is fine. It's, it's actually, you know, I kind of preferred being my own situation that way. Um, in a lot of ways, but it's, uh, it's interesting. So you sort of had the.
The keys I don't want to say the keys to the kingdom or the secret because I find that when people start talking about secrets And you know magic pixie dust to solutions to things. It's it's all sort of made up, you know Because a lot of times it's just kind of you know, it's it's it's either doing the work or knowing the steps or both, you know Um, so it seems to me you've put together You know, i've read your white paper and I know all that stuff and we've talked about it And that's why I see you have a really clear kind of process For how to go about it.
And I think it's interesting you talk about, you know, people who haven't looked for a new job in years, there's a skill to it, you know, it's like, it's like languages. If you don't use it, you lose it. And, and, you know, you, if you've spent your whole career doing your job and getting promoted within that organization as a way of getting into the new jobs, um, you've, you, you haven't used that, those muscles that you need.
Uh, and it's probably changed a bit. So, you know, tell me, so it's interesting. Uh, you know, I look at, I was looking at your LinkedIn profile this morning before we got on. Nice. I, I, I, you have this thing called the reverse job search method, TM, TM. And I love that you trademarked it. Um, cause it got me thinking about some other things, but, um, you know, tell me about that.
How did you, how did you get into, you know, well, let me ask first, You're in the kitchen, you got the whiteboard, your wife's there, you're talking about businesses. It seems to me you're starting a new business, you know, your, your partner has to be bought into the idea that you're going to do this. Uh, and, and she's listed as a co founder on the site.
Is that, uh, how, how did, how was that conversation? How did that, was she just, is she just an entrepreneurial spirit herself? She is, uh, she is very much so. And, um, which is lucky for me, you know, so many times I've wanted to do these crazy things and she's like, yeah, let's go for it. Um, uh, which, you know, I, I, I'm, I'm very lucky that, that, that, you know, that, that she feels that way.
Um, but she was, she, she, you know, she, she founded the business with me. Um, has done various different things with the business. Um, so for instance, she, she was the sales team, uh, originally, you know, she used to, she, I mean, sales isn't really the right enrollment. So that's cool. And she used to talk to all the people, all the potential clients who used to want to come on, you know, run them through what we did, et cetera.
Um, More recently, she's been looking after our, our, our family, uh, and, uh, and I think I mentioned we, we homeschool our kids and, and, and it's funny now, now she's, Now she's got a little bit more time. Um, she's thinking about starting her own thing. Uh, she calls it home, homeschool humans. And it's like this community for homeschool moms who want to like share ideas and stuff.
So I think that's awesome. So that's, she's doing that stuff now, but, um, but yeah, all, all, you know, for the, there is a need for that. That's out there. I know we just experienced that. We just experienced it a little bit. My son was, was, um, you know, doing remote learning during COVID and all that. So we had sort of a, and we used the, a homeschooling program through, uh, the state of Florida, which was actually pretty good.
Yeah. Uh, but you know, then we found he, he was, he wanted to get back into physical school with his friends and all that kind of stuff. So, but that's a whole thing, but there's a whole community that they need that they really need. And that's, what's kind of, that's, what's, that's, what's missing in a lot of ways from, from homeschooling, because there's a lot of good education that happens, but there's, you know, The other stuff, you know?
And so, yeah. Good for her. I hope that, uh, we'll, we'll have her on when that grows to Wow. Yeah. An appropriate, uh, challenging level. Um, so that's cool. So, yeah. And, and it's good. And, and you say she did a bunch of different roles in, in this business because there's so much work to do. I mean, there's so many different things that need to be done, and you can't do 'em all yourself.
Uh, or, you know, at the very best it takes forever, you know, um, so you know, how, how long, um, how long did it take? This is the question. I don't know. Um, so what's, what's next? You start the thing, you start, you start getting out there. How do you launch it? Um, you know, you, you know, you have a good idea, you know, and you say you had some bad ideas before, but honestly, you sell the business for, for actual money, that's, It's not actually, it's not a failure.
No, it's small, but it's not, you know, I mean, that's a success in any, by any small measure. Yeah. Um, so you got the thing you're doing now and now we talked, you have, you know, 20 some people, um, in the operation. How do you go from the idea to that? Yeah, well, we've actually, we've got about 35 now. Uh, we, we just literally this is the, I, I, which is, this is when business gets full of guests.
amusing when you haven't met hot, but probably a third of the people that work in your company. Um, but so, so how do, yeah, it's a good question. How do you go from kind of two people to, to that, um, as a lot of trial and error, a lot of hard work, a lot of, a lot of, you know, failure really, I, it's, I think anyone that starts a business and, you know, I've read a lot of business books and everyone has the same, it says the same thing.
There's a moment that you go through where it's like, why am I doing this? Like what, why is this? I, like, I used to have this corporate career. I was earning, you know, really good six figure salary. And now I have no money. It's like, I've got a young kid. I'm like working way harder than I was before and making no money.
What am I doing? Right. But you have that vision and you see that what this could become, and you know, you've got something good. Um, and you know, and it's just, I think it's, it's keeping going. I think a lot of people maybe give up at that point, but you know, if you don't, then, then it starts, it starts working.
So for me, it was, we, we did, we did quite well through COVID because we, you know, at that point we were selling, we, we were helping people in a kind of Less, less one on one, less high touch way. It was, it was more of, here's a training course. There's a little bit of coaching as well. And the price point was a lot lower.
That's when we were helping kind of, our offer was very broad. And so, and, and it was going well during COVID because a lot of people needed it. Um, but then we, then we had issues with our Facebook ad account and there was other stuff that went on. And then. Blah, blah, blah. And then, and then we got sued by an employee because, um, And we didn't, we didn't get sued, but we, we, they, basically we misclassified because just cause I didn't know, it's like, these are the lessons you learn.
It's like, we classified them as a contractor, but they actually should have been an employee. And they came back and they said, we're going to report you because, and I was like, I don't even know what this is. So then you have to hire a lawyer. And it's like, and it's, I remember someone talking to me, um, or someone, someone describing this as a stupid tax.
It's like you have to pay a lot of stupid tax when you start. I've paid, I've paid a lot of stupid tax. Yeah. I kind of, I'm familiar with this. Yeah. And you get to that point where it's, you know, you, you learn from these things. So now I know every employee that we have are classified correctly as a contractor or an employee.
I will never make that mistake again. You have to go through it though. So, you know, you have to go through these things and that's what, and you have to be okay with that. I think. So, so anyway, so we had that issue, you know, business went from doing well to doing very badly, um, how, you know, burn through a lot of our capital and our reserves.
Uh, and then I was like, well, what do we do now? So then started, you know, you have to kind of reposition, start growing again, start growing. And then. And, and really it was, there was a point probably 3, 3, 4 years ago where it was like, right, what are all the lessons that I've learned? Mm-Hmm. , if I was starting again, 'cause I kind of am, even though I've got the, the product and the name and stuff, it's like, right, we don't have any clients.
We're starting almost from scratch. Right. What do I, what do I do differently? What do I, how do I take all this learning and do things in the right way? And pretty much from day one, the business has just been awesome because it's like, you just took all that learning. And now it's just, now it's just gone from zero to 35 employees over the past, you know, two and a half, three years.
Um, and. Yeah, it's been, it's been fantastic. And now, and now we're just in this, in this zone where it's like, it's, it's like a flywheel. So we've got a really good leadership team and it's like, they are, you know, they come to me with ideas and you, when you transition from being the, just the brain who does everything, which is one of the hardest things in business is like being on top of everything.
Now I get to kind of choose what I want to do. There's some things that I have to do, but I get to choose more what I want to do. And like some of the high level strategy stuff that I. Yeah. We talking before working on the business versus in the business, probably it's only over the past maybe two or three months.
I've really started getting to that place of now I'm like, well, what do we next? Now I'm thinking about, do we want to acquire other businesses? Wow. I've got so many ideas about how do we grow to, you know, from where we are right now to a hundred million dollars in revenue or whatever, right now it's like, I can actually see that pathway now because we have this sustainable base and you know, we've got a great product.
We serve our clients really well. We've got a good team. So it's like, well, where do we go now? Yeah, well, it's gone. It's not just a suspicion. You know, I, I suspect that this is, this is a good idea. That's going to grow and could do this to no, I can actually see that it's actually possible to get there.
And if we do these things, we'll get there. How, um, how hard was it? Um, to, uh, this is the trust question. When you hire people to come in and do those, those jobs that take over some of the brain that, that you were handling all the time, how hard was it to relieve yourself of those responsibilities and trust somebody that somebody else is going to do it?
Well, yeah. So stupid tax again, I, the first eight or 10 people I hired were just. Not the right people, right? Primarily because I didn't have proper roles for them. I was like, come in, just here, just do some of this stuff. Right. Right. And, and obviously it was, it was bound to fail from the start. I know that now, but at the time I didn't know how really how to hire people.
Like it's, it's when you hire somebody for Deloitte, for example, the role is already defined. You're hiring somebody for a role that you know, exists, you know, exactly what they have to do. payroll is all set up. Everything's, you know, it's completely different to hiring somebody for something that doesn't yet exist.
It's your own, it's your own business and you don't need. So, um, so yeah, so I went through that and then, you know, when I started hiring people, um, into the new, we probably made a couple of mistakes in the, in the, you know, in the, in the past couple of years, but it was. You just, you just kind of, you just have, you just get better at it.
Um, and then there was one point where we hired, he's now our VP of operations, Chris. Best, best hire we've ever made. Um, he started off as a coach, um, just really awesome guy. He's a consultant as well. He used to work for Accenture and other companies. Um, and we could, we have a really good kind of working relationship where he's very detail oriented.
He's very, you know, he'll think about, think through everything. He's, he's a little bit more slightly, I'd say more. Pessimistic than I am. Um, on the other hand, it's good. It's good to have that though. It really is. Cause I'm like, let's do this and this and this. And he's like, well, let's think about whether that's actually the right thing.
Right. I know that I'm more of that kind of visionary side. So he was the first hire where it was really, he was bought into the vision, right? Cause we couldn't pay him. He, you know, we couldn't pay him. Anyone here is what he was making and consulting that cause he was, he was kind of trying to start his own business at the same time.
And I was like, come on board with us. We've already got momentum and you can, you know, you can do the things that you want to do without having to figure out all that stuff, which took me like three years to figure out. Um, and yeah, You know, and he's been, you know, he's been with us for a good while now, and that's been, that's been incredible.
And now we've got, you know, a few more people in the organization like that. So to answer your question, how do you hand over that stuff? It's, it's, it's, it's one of those things where it's a kind of necessary evil, you know, you know, you have to do it because if you don't. You'll just end up being, you just end up with a job.
And I, like I said, that's what my dad did and I didn't want to do it. And so, you know, you have to do it, but it's hard and it's not, it may not go right the first time. Right. But when you find the right person, That, that, you know, then you can kind of tap into that, you know, maybe not exponential, but almost exponential kind of, uh, abilities, you know, you're, you're tapping into the, the best talents of both of you in different ways.
Yeah. You're doubling your capacity. Yeah. And, uh, so, I mean, do you do, you know, cause again, you, not only are you creating jobs that never existed before you're, you're actually tackling. a problem in a way that's different from the way everybody else is tackling it. So you're creating something brand new that has jobs that do things differently.
How do you do that? Do you sit down and write, you know, like sort of, okay, we kind of know these things that have to get done. How do I filter that into a job description and responsibilities and metrics and all that and then find the person who's going to fit that? I mean, how do you go about doing that?
Yeah. That is what you do. That's exactly what you do is, is, so it's, it's a bit easier now because we do the size we are now. We do have defined roles. Um, but you know, for example, one of the things we've just done is we've, we've, uh, switched from using advertising agencies to now having an in house marketing team.
And so that, that involved exactly that, you know, what, what do we want to do? Fortunately, the amount we were spending on the agencies meant that it was, The same price or cheaper to actually hire internally. Right. But then you need to find the right people. You need to make sure that they know that they are aligned with what you are doing.
You have the, the KPIs set up, but Right. Yeah. That, that's what you need to do. Fantastic. Um, yeah. That's wild. So, you know. I want to get at now the, that idea that you're doing something differently than the way the industry has always done, because this isn't sort of your, this, you know, maybe this is your story.
Maybe this is your, your marketing language. Maybe this is your, you know, mission, whatever it is that it's the idea, the idea of a reverse job search is, is kind of an intriguing thought. You know, that automatically says, wait, no, this is the absolute reverse of the way everybody thinks it needs to be done.
How did you find your way into that? It's a good question. So, the reverse job search method essentially means taking control of the job search yourself rather than putting it in someone else's hands. Because that's what most people do is they, you know, they, they are, they, they passively look, they, they maybe look on a job board, they maybe try and go to a recruiter and see what they have available.
That's not taking an active approach in your career, right? The reverse job search method is all about. You being the one who is actually taking the active approach, generating your opportunities, knowing what you want and then getting it right. And it really, it comes. So there's, there's three myths that really is the basis for what, what I do.
Um, and, and it's, you know, let's say it's, it's, it's, I mean, my vision is I want to, I want to change the way that the job market works because it doesn't really help anyone. It just helps the middle, middle men, women who, uh, who profit from the, uh, the, the information gap. Yeah. Which, but that's, that's, I could spend hours talking about that.
So the three myths are the, the, the myth of the one company person, right? Because so many people, particularly when they're further in their career, right? They're always weighing it. Oh, should, should I stay? I've been here for 20 years. You know, I don't really like it, but I've got good benefits. It's like, Yeah.
It's, it's categorically proven that the best careers are made when you move multiple times between companies, right? You know, there's going to be unicorn situations where someone like, you know, moves from the janitor to the CEO or something, you know, you hear about those stories fine, but I'm talking about on, on average, people now move 12 times during their career, right?
Which is a lot. Um, and there's two reasons why it's almost a necessity to do it. The first one's called novelty bias. And what that is, what that is, is the fact that companies, people in general tie new hires to growth, right? All companies want to grow, they want to grow profit, they want to grow revenue, whatever.
New people represent growth, right? That's why new people get paid more. New people in an organization always get paid more than the people who are doing the same job who've been there for 10 years. It's not fair, but that's what always happens, right? And then on top of that, you have salary compounding.
So not only do you get paid more, um, and you get the best projects because you're the new person and you're, you're, you're brought in to do something good, usually, but secondly, if you look over someone's career, if they move multiple times, let's see, even if you move three times over your career compared to somebody who never moves.
And you get a 20 percent bump in your salary each move when you look over the span of someone's career, those, those increases compound. And so what happens is over your career, you end up. You end up earning millions of dollars more and all you've done is just move companies a few times. So the myth that you should stay with one company for a long time is just completely blown out of the water.
And you know, people, you know, you talk about security companies, they will fire you in an instant if they have to. Right. We all know that. And so it's, it's changing people's mindset, particularly people that have been, you know, people have been, they've got a lot of experience, they've been working for a long time.
they kind of have that mentality a little bit more, you know, Gen Zers who, it's funny, I say that as a millennial now, I'm like Gen Zers, but, um, the people, younger people, they know this, but it's the people who are more, you know, more of our generation, older potentially as well, who are at that stage. And they, they still feel like that.
The second myth. And you touched on this before it's, I call it the myth of build it and they will come, which is, well, I'm great at my job. So I'll easily be able to find the next one. It doesn't work like that. No getting a new job is a completely different skillset, right? I've spent literally years. And, and, and somebody, someone, you know, if someone comes to me and they, and they say, they say that they can do the job search or they, they don't need, you know, they don't need my help.
They don't need our company's help because they, they already know how to, even though they've been trying for eight months on their own and failed, kind of humorous because you know, how can you compare somebody that's been doing it for six years every single day You've been doing it part time for a few months, right?
But, but for some reason, this is a myth that people have in their minds. It's like, well, I'm great at my job. So I should be great at getting the next one. Right. But it's a totally different thing. I have this conversation with people all the time about what I do. And it's really funny. It's we talk, well, we talk about, you know, you have your in house marketing team and I've, I've been in house, I've been consultant, I've been, um, you know, Uh, agency, I've been at all.
And, uh, but through it all, I, I'm, I have done what I do for a long, long time, and I'm really good at what I do. Um, so you can have your in house marketing team and they may be really skilled and really, really gifted, but there are certain things that are specialties that they just don't have the background to do.
Uh, and you'll get that in any department, in any, in any career, uh, and sometimes you need to bring in, you know, and you got to go find them and that, and, and the way you find them and you tell me how this impacts or how this maps to, to what you're doing. It's the people who are telling the best story about who they are.
Yep. You know, it's that, you know, cause I look at what you're doing and sort of this, this If you'll pardon the overused expression, personal branding is kind of part of it. You're, you're really kind of telling your own, figuring out the best way to tell your own story, uh, to stand out and, uh, and that's, you know, otherwise it's some HR person with a pile of resumes, uh, or a file, you know, an electronic file folder full of resumes that's going to control your future.
And that's not helpful. That that's exactly what it is. Um, and you know, it's actually the first pillar of what we do when we, when we work with clients is called, uh, the executive story. That's exactly what it is. If you don't have a strong executive story, you may as well give up. You may as well not even try because you're not going to be able to stand out against all the other people who are out there.
Yeah. And, and, and you're right. And what's funny, right? You said about hiring. The specialist, the consultant, what's really funny is that the people we work with high powered executives, if they've got a problem in business, they'll happily hire a consultant to help them. Yeah. Okay. To do this valuation.
Yeah, sure. That's fine. Right. I have somebody to help me with a job search. Why would I do that? I can do it myself. It's, it's, it's, it's kind of interesting, the mindset about it, but it's exactly, it's exactly the same thing. You know, if you're a smart person at a certain level, you know, that you don't know everything.
Right. I I'm this way. Now I'm like, I will just hire anyone to do something, to teach me something or do, do something for me because so much quicker and I'll get better results than me just spending months trying to learn it. Like historically, I need a new website. All right, YouTube, how do you build a website?
Then you're like, and this is what I used to do because I, you know, I didn't have the, the, the, the correct mindset also potentially didn't have the money. Um, but now I'm like, I would never ever even consider that. Right. I would spend a day finding the best web development team who'd go and do it. It'd be happy.
It happened much quicker and the end result would be way better. Right? Absolutely. That's one of the challenges that we face is, is, you know, is overcoming that myth. And that's why it's one of the myths. And then, and then the third myth, you know, to finish the set is the fact that, um, the traditional job search doesn't work for most people, right?
The traditional job search is submitting your resume online to a job that you find. Uh, or trying to get a recruiter to help you. Uh, and then the reason is it's because of misaligned objectives. Job boards don't want you to get a job, right? Why is that? Because they make all their money. The long, the more applicants a company gets, right?
Job boards make their money from one or two ways. Number one, number of applicants that actually apply, right? Companies pay per applicant or advertising revenue from the job posting. The longer the job postings up, the more revenue they make. Therefore, job boards, if someone gets hired on day one, very bad for a job board.
Someone gets hired after six months, very good for a job board. 10, 000 applicants, very good for a job board. Very bad for the candidates. Right. Right. Completely misaligned expectations. Recruiters. And this is the big one as well, particularly for the people that we work with, who does a recruiter work for?
Do they work for you? Or do they work for the company? Who's doing the hiring? Right. They work for the company doing the hiring, right? Unless they have the perfect opportunity that you fit, you check every single box and you're perfect for that opportunity, right? Or they'll put you forward, right? But if you don't, they're not, they're not going to help you find a job.
This is what people, people think recruiters sit there and like, try and help them find a job. Right. So. They don't do that to, to, to a recruiter you as a, you as someone who's looking for a job or a commodity, right? You are one of a hundred, a thousand people who they have to find the best one and then present three of them to the company that's actually doing the hiring, right?
They're not going to help you. You have to be very, very lucky. If they have that exact match, what's the chances that one recruiter that you talk to is going to have that exact match at the type of company that you want to work for? with the type of conversation with, you know, with the things that you want from that role, it's incredibly unlikely.
Well, it's really, I mean, it's really, they talk, the phrase is rolling the dice, right? I mean, it's, it's, do the numbers come up exactly at that particular moment and you know, they have to be looking at that job and your resume, uh, or have that phone call with you at all the same time so that they're, they connect those dots.
Otherwise, it ain't, it just, it ain't happening, you know, and that's, um, it's interesting. So I, I, you know, the deeper I read into what you're doing, it's like, wow, this is really, it's really turning everything on its, on its end. Uh, and I, I can see why you have success with it. I can see why you've gone to 35 people since the last time I talked to you.
Um, it's, it's good. It's, it's, it's a really, you know, um, now you're, you're largely or entirely virtual in your team. Yes. Yeah. You're all, you're all over the place. Um, which gets me to my, you know, that enabled you to move across the country to a brand new place that in home, that in homeschooling, they won't get moved across country.
Um, how does that work for you and your team? Is that, you know, and, and I've, I say this all the time too, cause I talk to people who are, uh, suspicious of, or reluctant to do remote stuff. And I say, well, I've, I've done work for Deloitte forever and I see how their teams work and they're all remote almost all the time.
And it actually helps them in a lot of ways. So, um, you know, clearly that's how you built your business. How do you, what's your experience with that? Yeah, it's a good question. So my, I mean, my ideal would be. Some kind of semi hybrid approach. Um, and the reason I say that is because my absolute favorite times that I have with, with this business or when I get to meet the other people that work.
Right. So we have our, like we had our executive offsite, uh, about a month and a half ago in Denver. Um, obviously easier for me. Uh, and, and it was great. Right. We spent, we spent two days together. We, you know, we all, we all just like. You just, it's so much different when you're in the room with somebody, but 90 percent of the work that anyone does, I think in, in pretty much any, any organization is you, you don't need to be with other people.
Right. So, so for me, I think you, you, you, you lose some, you lose on, you lose on both sides, right? If you're always in the office, you definitely lose productivity because you just don't need to be sick. You don't need to commute. You don't need to be sitting in the chair from nine to five. Right. It's just silly.
You don't need to do that. Right. But, but on the other hand, you lose out on that human interaction, which is in many ways, you know, particularly when you get more senior going up and standing in front of the whiteboard and drawing out some stuff and putting post it notes on there and talking about strategy.
Right. That stuff is so hard when you try and do it over Zoom. Yeah, no, I, I, I don't disagree. I have found that to be, you know, um, the face to face stuff, uh, also, you know, like, you know, and you tell me about coaching, but you know, when you're talking about, you know, like I I've met somebody who's new, might be a good fit for me as a client.
And some, most of my clients are virtual and far flung and whatever, but, but. Uh, maybe not as often as, as I'd like, if we can meet for a coffee and sit and talk face to face, you, you get things that you don't get. It's the same reason I record, uh, a lot of my, my work with my clients is, is cause I need to go back and listen to it and try and catch those things that I probably would have seen if I was face to face in the same room.
So, you know, I think that's, you know, I think that's a really enlightened way of doing it and, you know, whether it's quarterly or monthly or whatever it is that works best for any particular organization that, that face to face time is, uh, it's important, but it can, you know, as you say, it's unnecessary.
Yeah. I always thought as long as I don't care about the hours you're working, as long as you get the job that I've. Asked you to do, get that done. That's what I care about. You know, if you're, if you're there, if you leave at 4 30 or if you stay till seven, I don't care as long as you're getting the job done and you're happy with it, the expectations and all that kind of stuff.
So, you know, I think it's just healthier for people that way. It is. And, you know, and you get, you get the added bonus of, of having moved to Boulder and, and being able to conduct your, your remote sessions nearby so you could, they can come see you. And that's okay. Um, I asked you to be on this cause I was really impressed with what you're doing and I, I find it to be a really fascinating success story.
So thanks for coming on. Yeah. Thanks for having me. It's been awesome. I, uh, I appreciate it. And we'll, uh, maybe we'll check back in when you go from 35 to 50. So James, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate you spending, um, you know, a little more than an hour with me. Sure. It's being fantastic.
Thanks. My pleasure.
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