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Real people share real stories of their connection with Nature. Hear how it feels to talk with animals, birds and landscape. Share the magic of cross species communication.
Created by award winning Nature writer and poet Estelle Phillips.
Instagram @estelle_writer44
TikTok @EstellePhillips
Jeni Bell is a writer inspired by wildlife and wildness. You can find her as Seeking Wild Sights. Jenny is very modest about her achievements as you'll hear when I asked her to introduce herself. She actually won the Nature Writing Prize for working class writers, and she writes for publications like The Guardian, BBC Wildlife Magazine and The Simple Things. Not only this, but Jenny is immersed in the countryside.
Estelle Phillips:I've been wanting to get her on the podcast for yonks. We had a wonderful chat about relationships, foxes and feelings. I'm thrilled to be sharing this brilliant podcast with you. Over to you, Jenny.
Jeni Bell:I would describe myself as a writer who is inspired by place and nature and is and I'm interested in creating connection and wonder.
Estelle Phillips:Jenny, what I would like to know, please Mhmm. Is in the entirety of your existence on Earth
Jeni Bell:Okay.
Estelle Phillips:What has been the most intimate and emotional connection that you've had with any part of the natural world?
Jeni Bell:That is an amazing question. That is so hard because I think I'm so nature focused and nature has been present throughout my whole life whether I've known it intimately or not, but there was one morning, it was really early, my partner Bill, his family were over and we they had gone for a walk and I'd gone halfway up with them, but I was really struggling with asthma at the time and like chest infections, so I couldn't make
Estelle Phillips:it all the way to the top of
Jeni Bell:the hill. So I lent over this gate post and I was just watching the landscape and I was very aware of this kind of like, I don't know, this fiery kind of creature in the corner of my vision. And I instantly held my breath because was like, it's a fox. It's a fox. And I'm not kidding, it was as far away as we are sat now.
Jeni Bell:So that's what? Three feet? Yeah. Three feet. It was like so close and I saw it coming, I saw it coming, I saw it coming, and it I was just there holding my breath and it walked past me, like, completely.
Jeni Bell:And so it it was so close that I could see the definition of all of the hairs on its body. I could see its intake of breath, its release of breath, and I could see its eyes. Like, have you ever really looked at a fox's eye? It's like a world. There's a whole world in there.
Jeni Bell:And yet, it just walked it didn't even look at me. It didn't acknowledge that I was there. It was as though I was completely part of the landscape and it it was just going about its day to day stuff. Its ear kind of twitched like, oh, yeah, there's definitely something around. I imagine that was like a a protective thing for for him if if I don't if I don't pay attention to it, it can't see me.
Jeni Bell:But, yeah. So I'd literally I was so close to this fox, and I've had lots of encounters with foxes like that, but that was the that was the biggest one. I'd like melded into the background.
Estelle Phillips:But there's no way that he didn't know you were there.
Jeni Bell:No. 100%. So he he must have known because they are so in tune.
Estelle Phillips:Yeah. There's no way that
Jeni Bell:And it was so close and I wasn't down oh, no.
Estelle Phillips:Well, I
Jeni Bell:don't know. It wouldn't have even made a difference because we were literally sat across from each other. But, yeah, I've had quite a few incidences where I've literally bumped into foxes and they've not it's been as though they don't know I'm there and then they shoot off and they realize, it's bizarre. But do
Estelle Phillips:do you think he or she made an assessment?
Jeni Bell:Yes. Like an assessment of his of of their landscape Yeah. And just thought there's a potential threat. If I stop to look at this threat and meet it head on, it becomes more of a threat. If I just kind of pretend, you know when like if you're out and you you see someone you think, oh god, I'm not up for a conversation today.
Jeni Bell:So you try to make yourself small and you look at the floor and you just carry on where you're going. Yeah. That's what it felt like.
Estelle Phillips:Wow. Mhmm.
Jeni Bell:It was lovely. It was really lovely.
Estelle Phillips:Yeah. It also says something to me about your assimilation in the landscape at that time.
Jeni Bell:Okay. That's interesting. What does it say?
Estelle Phillips:From a fox's perspective Mhmm. Normally when they see a human, they scarper. Especially,
Jeni Bell:I think it's probably worth mentioning, it was in a very rural location, so it was definitely kind of a country fox, which if you look at those in comparison to interactions with urban foxes who are a bit more used to people Yeah. They seem less flighty. So, yeah, for it to be a rural kind of setting and it was what? It wasn't that late in the morning but it was like a a really golden sunrise. It was really beautiful.
Jeni Bell:But yeah, that's really interesting.
Estelle Phillips:It's like an acceptance of of you, you see.
Jeni Bell:Oh, I like that. That makes me feel nice.
Estelle Phillips:Because it's really confusing that
Jeni Bell:he didn't run. Yeah. Didn't run. He or I should stop saying he. Yeah.
Jeni Bell:He or she. He or she. They kept Yeah. Yeah. There was no quickening of pace.
Jeni Bell:There was no stopping. So usually, when I've had encounters before, you'll get like a they'll stop and they'll be aware that something is not quite right within the landscape or something is different. And then, they'll make that assessment that you were talking about and carry on. No. Didn't stop.
Jeni Bell:Just kinda were just in a complete world of their own. Mhmm. I've never seen an animal look so blissed out. It was just like, yeah, the sun's up, I've had a good night, like, I'm just gonna drop back home and have a have a nap. And I know I shouldn't anthropomorphize, but I can't help it.
Jeni Bell:But yeah, it was a really special, but I think stillness, There was some was very still because I'd clocked them. And
Estelle Phillips:I had Do you what?
Jeni Bell:I had a moment where I thought, I wanna get my phone out, I wanna take a photo. And like, no one's ever gonna believe this. But I instinctively stopped myself. Was like, what is more important? The photo or the experience?
Jeni Bell:Mhmm. And for me, it was the experience. Mhmm. So yeah, there was a stillness, held my breath, kind of like, tried to slow my thoughts as much as possible to just just stay really still.
Estelle Phillips:Fantastic. How wonderful. What about your other experiences with foxes?
Jeni Bell:They all kind of coincide with around the time that my my father passed away. And I am also aware that as humans, we like to pick out patterns, so it's it's very much that there might be a coincidence there, you know, let me have it. So, yes, I was out walking and yeah. My my father had just passed away, so I was kind of dealing with all of that that kind of stuff. And I was out dog walking.
Jeni Bell:So I had three dogs with me and we're just going along this kind of like scrubby path and there was a strange figure in front of us and I could just see this tail and like the scuffling. And so I was like, oh, I don't know what that is. Got a bit closer. Oh, it's a fox. So he kept going and I was I was just like, you're gonna you're gonna move?
Jeni Bell:It it they were obviously really intent on something within the hedgerow that they had their head stuck in and their bum stuck out of. And I had to cough in the end to just be like, excuse me, I'm here. Because I don't wanna startle them. They were, you know, doing their own thing. They kind of looked up, looked at me and just went, alright, and carried on.
Jeni Bell:And it was so in the end, had to walk. I was there was no way around them. It was a very small path and I couldn't, like, gather everything up and go back. So, yeah, I just kind of nudged myself forward until eventually they were like, oh, fine. You can come past.
Jeni Bell:So, yeah, I had a lot of a lot of encounters like that around the time my dad died. Another one up on the drove up above here, just casually walking towards me, just just coming straight at me, just like, oh, yeah. And then at the last minute, darted off across the field and sat and watched me go past.
Estelle Phillips:That thing when they're walking straight at you Mhmm. That's quite a big thing.
Jeni Bell:Is is it? It didn't I think it is. Have you have have you had any encounters Yes. With them? Okay.
Jeni Bell:Yeah.
Estelle Phillips:Not with foxes.
Jeni Bell:Okay. So much. Okay.
Estelle Phillips:But that thing of, you know, when an animal in the wild and you're in the wild too Yeah. Walks straight towards you like that. Yeah. Does
Jeni Bell:it take your breath away? Do you have a moment where you kind of have this Yeah. This is this is big. This is like a big thing. Yeah.
Jeni Bell:Like a primal thing kicks in.
Estelle Phillips:Yeah. Do you?
Jeni Bell:Yeah. All the time.
Estelle Phillips:Right. Ditto. Right. So this thing with the foxes Mhmm. Around the time of your father passing, and I hope it's, like, okay to talk
Jeni Bell:about Yeah. Of course. I wouldn't have brought it up again. It wasn't. Right.
Estelle Phillips:Thank you. That's okay. So what I'm wondering is at that time you have one has so much going on. Yeah. And you're kind of antennae and the vibe.
Estelle Phillips:Yes.
Jeni Bell:Okay. Yeah? Yeah. So you're like giving off. Yeah.
Jeni Bell:Or do you mean that you're giving off or you're more perceptive to?
Estelle Phillips:Both. Mhmm.
Jeni Bell:That's what I've noticed. Okay. That's interesting.
Estelle Phillips:Yeah. I
Jeni Bell:can double down on this a bit if you would like me to.
Estelle Phillips:Yeah. It'd be interesting to know your thoughts on it because your experience is so it's so interesting because it's not really coincidence, is it? Well, now I said, I don't know. That's a
Jeni Bell:really interesting and I've never thought about it Yeah. In that way as coincidence. I've always just kind of put it to myself that because I spend so much time in the landscapes, because I spend so much time walking, because I spend so much time out on my own kind of, you know, Bill and I have this running joke that I can say I'll be gone for half an hour and I come back four hours later covered in like mud, trees, insects. Because I just get distracted. I forgot where I was going with this now.
Jeni Bell:And I think because I spend so much time in the landscape, why wouldn't I see these things? Or is it also because I get really tuned in to the landscape and to reading the landscape? I like to look on barbed wire fences to see what hair is there, like what fur is there or if there's mud, can I decipher who's been there before? Is it a deer? Is it a badger?
Jeni Bell:Is it a fox? So, am I seeing those things because I'm just tuned into that way of seeing or is it something else do you think? Like, what what what are your thoughts on that?
Estelle Phillips:Well, I think that I think there are two those are two really interesting and important things. Yeah. Mhmm. So firstly, you being tuned in. Mhmm.
Estelle Phillips:I I think that is definitely a thing. Mhmm. Yeah? Mhmm. I'd really love to know more about that.
Estelle Phillips:Like Yep. From your perspective. Yeah. I would love to know more about your tuning in because that's so obvious, really, isn't it? It feels
Jeni Bell:obvious. And I think it feels obvious to me because I don't know how to not do it. I can be out for a walk with friends and I'm, you know, a bird will fly overhead and I'll I'll shout out the name or I'll spot a badger print in the forest floor and be like, badger, and we can't move on until I've looked at it. Yeah. I think for me, it's always just been I've just always done it.
Jeni Bell:I've always been interested in that learning a landscape and figuring out what's there and I want to peel back the layers. Like, I want to know everything I can find out about a place and even if that's just feeling. Like, you know, when you go to a place and you just sit and you take a minute and you think what is this place like? What does it feel like? How do I feel within it?
Jeni Bell:And then I think it's interesting to revisit places and think does it change? Does the place always feel the same or does does it adapt to how I'm feeling? Do I adapt to it? So, I think for me it's just always been there, this noticing. And I don't know if that was perhaps growing up on a kind of a suburban council estate where nature wasn't necessarily abundant, but you had to look for it.
Jeni Bell:So, you know, you spent ages like scrabbling around in the brambles or sneaking off as far as you could to get to the oak tree to climb it kind of thing. Yeah. So I'm I'm not sure where it's come from, but I know that I don't know how to turn it off. It's just there, this noticing. Wow.
Estelle Phillips:You know what you were saying about feeling? Yes. Yeah. So you go to a place and then you might go back. Have you gone back to a place and and had different feelings?
Jeni Bell:About the place, like how the place Yeah. I think I have. Yeah. Yeah. Well, not far from here, actually.
Estelle Phillips:Can you can you talk about that? Sounds really interesting.
Jeni Bell:You know Martindown Nature I used to be terrified for that place. It used to feel very strange to me. And I don't know if that was just because I didn't know it. I was coming to a new location. I was scared to walk there on my own because I didn't know I didn't know it.
Jeni Bell:And it always felt, oh my gosh, I've just had a realization. You're gonna laugh at this. I always felt that it was keeping me at guard. Like, there was a a barrier. Not a barrier, but you had to really work to learn the observations in that place, to learn the noticing.
Jeni Bell:So I got to the stage where I was visiting it like every day and I saw a fox. I just realized. It was very, very early one morning. As you go along, there's kind of like a path with a a drop down. It's all overgrown now, but there was a fallen tree And at the end of the tree curled up, there was a fox asleep.
Jeni Bell:And that was the first time I was like, I feel like I've earned this. Like, I've paid enough attention, I've come enough times, I've learned enough about it. Obviously, there's always still so much to learn. I don't think you can ever know a place fully, but it felt like a little tidbit. Like, if you keep coming back, you might get more than a fox or you might get, you know, not that it owes you anything.
Jeni Bell:I don't ever think that. But I think, yeah, by tuning into feeling, you
Estelle Phillips:can you can be rewarded. First of all, we should probably say that Martindale is a place of great presence. Yes. So there's a lot going on there historically. Yes.
Estelle Phillips:Yeah. So and also I completely understand what you say about that kind of it's not exactly a hands off. It's like some kind of like resistance.
Jeni Bell:It's so I I always think of we were talking about connection.
Estelle Phillips:Yeah.
Jeni Bell:And I remember going to a fold talk by Ruth Allen. Yeah. And she spoke about the word connection and how connection, when you think of that word, it's like a hanging on. Like, when you connect to something, you kind of leech onto it. And perhaps a better word is a relationship.
Jeni Bell:So that's how I feel. I think she hit the nail on the head with that and that's how I think I feel about Martin Down. It's like, went into it to be like, I want a connection, like, I want a connection, I want to feel connected to nature, I want to feel connected to this place. But it was like, well, hold on. What am I getting?
Jeni Bell:What you know, it's it has to be a reciprocal relationship with nature and I think when you start to learn about a place Mhmm. Things start to soften, don't they? So whether it's the landscape softening or you just opening more doors. Yeah. I think there can be a reciprocal a reciprocity to it.
Jeni Bell:Yes.
Estelle Phillips:I really agree with that. Do you? Yeah. Yeah. Really.
Estelle Phillips:When you went back and you saw the fox, was that when it had changed, do you think?
Jeni Bell:I think it was leading up to it. I think softening is the right word. I think I've just talking to you about it then, it kind of in my head, it was like no softening. Everything softened, the hard edges softened, you know, it was like no, this is so yeah, to start with, I wouldn't go up there on my own. I always have to take my partner with me or the dog.
Jeni Bell:And and then when I kind of started to think, oh, Hold on. I'm gonna push it. I'm gonna try this myself. Yeah. It it it softened and it kind of let me in and now I go up there and I have no qualms whatsoever.
Jeni Bell:I'll, you know, wander around for ages and it's Yeah. It's interesting, but it is. It's an impressive place, isn't it? Mhmm. Mhmm.
Jeni Bell:It's got such a presence. I think you're really right there.
Estelle Phillips:The presence is different in different parts of it.
Jeni Bell:Oh, do you think so?
Estelle Phillips:Yeah. Yeah. I do. Yeah.
Jeni Bell:Yeah. What yes. Because I suppose you've got the really open parts Mhmm. And you've got the scrubby parts. And you've got like the high hills.
Jeni Bell:I like it because it's like a it's a liminal point, isn't it?
Estelle Phillips:It's I think so. Yeah.
Jeni Bell:It's you've got the counties meeting and when you stand up on on like the very top of Martindown, you're looking out across Hampshire, Dorset, Wiltshire, you know, just yeah. I I love places like that when they merge. And it shows its history as well, doesn't it? It does. Yeah.
Jeni Bell:It does.
Estelle Phillips:Yeah. So Jenny, you are you are a mine of of of of inflammation. So
Jeni Bell:have you got any other examples of? Relationship. I've got a dear one not far from here, not far not far from Martindown actually. I was walking up on one of the drove roads. It had just been raining.
Jeni Bell:It was like, you know, just as April shifts into May Yeah. And everything's like lush and green and it rains and you get that beautiful earthy Yeah. Kind of scent. It was like that. I was walking up there.
Jeni Bell:This deer, it was a roebuck. I love roebucks. It just leapt up from the side of where I was sat. It had obviously been couched up chewing, just having a good time and I disturbed it which, you know, I do feel bad about, but I genuinely have no idea he was there. And I'm gonna sound weird for this, but I don't care.
Jeni Bell:He leapt up and looked at me and we had this moment where we were looking at each other. And again, you could see, like, you you could almost see the thought process. You could see the synapses going, and he was going, I don't like this. I don't like this. You shouldn't be here.
Jeni Bell:I'm gonna go. And you could see, like, the muscle twitch to tell him to go, and he he went I went and sat down in the spot that he had been couched in just so I could feel a little bit closer and it was warm and it smelled of like deer and forest and the warmth didn't last very long. But I just thought how cool is that to have to have sat there in this spot where this living, breathing kind of like king of the forest was. Mhmm. So yeah, loads of stuff like that.
Jeni Bell:I think I come face to face with animals quite often.
Estelle Phillips:Do you think that's partly because you're walking on your own?
Jeni Bell:Yes. Yes. I think so, because it's quiet. Yeah. I when I walk with other people, very rarely see.
Jeni Bell:I never see anything Do you not?
Estelle Phillips:No. Not not. I've never had a meaningful, it's like relationship with the land when I've been with other people.
Jeni Bell:Really? No. If those other people are really in tune with it as well. I don't think I've ever been in that situation. Yeah.
Jeni Bell:It's like that Mary Oliver poem, isn't it? I wish I could remember it from the top of my head about how she goes to the woods alone. And if she takes you to the woods, then you must really mean something to her because
Estelle Phillips:Yeah.
Jeni Bell:I know the poem. Yeah. She's like, I don't I don't want you to see me pray to the trees. Yeah. Yeah.
Jeni Bell:Yeah. It's just like that. Yeah. I feel a bit like that about going to the woods. Very
Estelle Phillips:interesting. Mhmm. You remember when you first noticed that you had this meaningful sort of like relationship with the natural world. Can you remember your first ever?
Jeni Bell:Do you know what? I can't because I have to be honest, I find questions like first ever questions, I find really hard. Yeah. It's like, my brain will never go back to that pinpoint moment. It's like, what if it was this one?
Jeni Bell:What if it was that one? I can always remember just being tuned in to nature. And I think my mom was really good at pointing things out to me. Whether she knew what they were or not, it would it would encourage you to look at that. Like, oh, look, there's
Estelle Phillips:a there's a big bird
Jeni Bell:up there, Jennifer. And you you would just kind of look. No worries. I can there's one memory that comes back to me more often than not. And I was a little girl and I was I can't remember where we were, but I remember walking up this it was like a country lane and we were going to a horse field.
Jeni Bell:There was like a horse field at the end of the the gate and it was misty. So I'm thinking it was do you know what? No. I'm not even gonna put a time on it because I genuinely don't know. It was a low heavy mist.
Jeni Bell:It was gray and I can just hear blackbird song and wood pigeon calls. And I remember feeling, this is really magic, because I can remember the hairs on the back of my neck going up and just being like, I don't know. I'm I'm I'm imposing my memory of it now onto a small child, but I always think of that when I hear blackbirds and wood pigeon. Wow. I can remember that lane and I can remember there was a big horse chestnut tree and it was low, like, you know how they will, like, when trees come down really low to the ground.
Jeni Bell:And I just remember that mist and I remember the fresh scent. I can feed it, like, in the top of my nose. Do you get that with memories when you can, like, you can feel them on in different parts? Some. Some.
Jeni Bell:Yeah. It's a it's a funny old one, but that one. I think any time I hear a blackbird, like, the alarm call, not necessarily the song Mhmm. Because it reminds me of being a kid on the council estate and the street lights coming on and that like blackbird kind of like chinking noise. Yeah.
Jeni Bell:So I think it's always been there, but those those are the two kind of keys to like get you into the memory. It's blackbirds.
Estelle Phillips:This sort of relationship thing Mhmm. Has been going on for a really long time with Yeah? Mhmm. Hasn't it? Yeah.
Estelle Phillips:When did you sort of like start paying attention to it? Because you pay attention to it now. Yes. Don't you?
Jeni Bell:Yes. Really pay attention to it now.
Estelle Phillips:You value it? Yeah. 100%. Yeah.
Jeni Bell:I feel like it's what I'm made up of, if that makes sense. Yeah. And I don't necessarily know what everything is, but I know how I feel about things. When did I really start paying attention to it? I think I've turned it off and on throughout my life.
Jeni Bell:Yeah. When I was so I I I was really paying attention when I was little, really little. Because I think with a few things going on at home and a difficult kind of upbringing in certain regards, I can remember paying attention to like the bats flying around the garden in the summer or the noise that the sparrows were making. So that became like a comfort thing. And then like teenagers, I used teenager, aren't you?
Jeni Bell:You're going off here, there and everywhere. But I would always go bird watching even when I was a teenager. I would take my granddad's old, like, massive binoculars and cycle up to the bird watching hides on the industrial estate. So yeah, I think it's been off and on, but I think now since writing, since I've tuned into writing, I would say I am more consciously trying to form a better relationship with nature.
Estelle Phillips:What I'm hearing is that you have quite a profound sense of the natural world. That's what I'm hearing. Mhmm. Yeah. And and you're noticing it.
Estelle Phillips:Mhmm.
Jeni Bell:Yeah? Yeah.
Estelle Phillips:But that profound sense, where does that come from?
Jeni Bell:I love this question. It's such a big question, isn't it? Where does any of it come from? Like, what what does any of it mean? I think I'm sorry.
Jeni Bell:I'm answering your question with questions because I genuinely don't know. I don't know, but I just know. I have it's it sounds so conceited and I don't mean it to. I'm just trying to think how best to explain it. It's like a fizzy feeling and I think because I love nature so much and because it has given me so much and been so present, when I say I'm like full of nature, I think that's what it means.
Jeni Bell:I feel like my existence has been like packed down with foxes and deer and sparrows and blackbirds and bats. And I feel like I now can't have a conversation with someone without it coming out. One thing that I really struggle with in nature writing is this whole you must go off and have this huge big experience in order for it to be meaningful. Whereas for me, I think it's more important that we we try to remember that there is meaning in everything in the ordinary, in the snail, like slithering up your wall. And I think that's what it is for me and I try to remind myself that is a living being.
Jeni Bell:And there was a there's an anthology of books. I think it's called Gifts of Gravity and Light. And you have to forgive me because I can't remember the author of the essay. But she spoke about seeing species as individuals rather than a hulk. So when we say sparrows, you just think of a flock of sparrows, but each of those creatures is an individual.
Jeni Bell:So I think for me that's where the profoundness of it comes from is is just a it they're living being bigger than us, like, it's big. That's where the profoundness comes from. Sorry. I had to talk myself around to get to that answer. It's it's it's big and it's ever moving and ever giving and ever changing and yeah.
Jeni Bell:I I I don't know where it comes from. I just know it's there. Sorry. It's not very helpful, is it? No.
Jeni Bell:It's That's that's that's actually the best answer. Do you
Estelle Phillips:think so? Yeah. Yeah.
Jeni Bell:Do you you find the profoundly in experiences in nature? Definitely.
Estelle Phillips:You and I agree on so much. I want to say thank you for an absolutely brilliant podcast, it's fantastic.
Jeni Bell:Oh, thank you so much for inviting me. I've had the best time. Thank you so much as
Estelle Phillips:well. You're welcome. Subscribe to Nature Talks With Humans for more true stories of people communicating with animals, birds, and landscape. Follow me on Instagram at Estelle underscore writer forty four, and TikTok at Estelle Phillips. Bye.