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The Fanfic Writers’ Craft is a podcast that discusses all things fanfiction with a focus on the art and science of writing for the enjoyment of fan communities. Every three weeks, Jo and Blayne (otherwise known in fandom as @pebblysand and @nargles15) sit down for a fun, multi-fandom, fanfic-related chat and delve into particular topics such as: the particularities of writing and reading fanfiction, monetisation, how to build a fanfiction plot, etc. Hope you enjoy!
You can find us and contact us at: https://thefanficwriterscraft.tumblr.com/
Hello, and welcome to the fanfic writer's craft, a podcast that discusses all things fan fiction with focus on the art and science of writing for the enjoyment of fan communities. My name is Jo, aka Pebley Sand, and I'll be your host for the next hour or so. My cohost, Blayne, writes online under the name Nargles fifteen. You'll meet her shortly. We hope you enjoy.
Jo:But for now, buckle up. Get yourself a nice cup of tea and welcome to the fanfic writer's craft. Hi, everyone and welcome to the fanfic writer's craft. This is Jo. I hope you're all doing well.
Jo:I am actually stepping in post recording today to introduce this month's episode to you as it is a very special one. Back in April, Blaine and I had the pleasure of being joined by our first guest of the year, Tiana, also known online as Tiana with an a. If you spend any time in fandom spaces, especially on TikTok, chances are you've come across her and her work before. Tiana creates thoughtful, funny, and often brilliantly blunt videos exploring all things fan fiction from tagging discourse to reader engagement, the shifting culture of our communities online. She's part of a growing group of creators who are bringing fandom and conversations out in the open and who aren't afraid of digging into the messier, more complex sides of writing, sharing, and existing in fan spaces.
Jo:As long time fic writers ourselves, we were super excited to sit down with her and get into all of it. A quick note before we dive in further into the episode. You might notice that the same quality on my end is a little bit up and down, throughout the episode. That is because, unfortunately, my washing machine decided that it wanted to be part of the conversation. Really, who can blame her?
Jo:So I've tried to iron out the sound as much as I could, but I am obviously very much not a professional podcaster. So apologies for that, and thanks for bearing with us. In this episode, we talk about how fun culture is evolving, the impact of TikTok on reader and writer dynamics, and why something as simple as leaving a comment on a fake is still something that matters a lot in our communities. To start things off, I asked Tiana to introduce herself and tell us a bit more about the kind of content that she makes and the fandoms that she calls home. I hope you enjoy.
Jo:Thank you very much.
Tiana:Well, my name is Tiana. I am on TikTok as Tina with an a. You can also find me on a couple other socials with that exact same username. I do a lot of content specifically centered around fandom and fan fiction where I kind of talk about the culture of it and I talk about etiquette and how etiquette has shifted and changed over specifically the past five years. But when it comes to specifically my actual fandoms that I'm a part of that I am very dodgy with in my TikTok videos, is I'm sorry
Jo:for asking you that. If you don't wanna answer, that's fine.
Tiana:Honestly, no. I'm totally okay with it. I've actually really debated kind of just being a little bit more open about it. The only reason that I've kind of hidden it is because I I got I got a little controversial on TikTok very recently in the past month. So I was like, just kidding.
Tiana:Maybe I'll maybe I'll hold back because I have a I got a lot of people coming after my ass recently. So so, but When
Blayne:do they know
Tiana:it, honestly? I know. Especially on TikTok. You say I mean, you know, it's it's so funny. But the fandoms that I'm mainly a part of, at least in the past few years have been, shadow and bones, specifically centered around the television show.
Tiana:Oh, nice. Yeah. As well as, I have written a few in star wars, but specifically the mandalorian and the acolyte. Rest in peace, the acolyte. I miss you every day.
Tiana:Yeah. And then, I also wrote a couple of different one shots for that newest show that was on Hulu. I think it was Hulu called rivals. It was like a British television show with David Tennant, and, it was it's a very saucy little show.
Jo:Oh, I think I saw that.
Tiana:Yeah. I I recommend it if you guys haven't watched it yet.
Blayne:You had me at saucy.
Tiana:It saw yes. Absolutely. And then kind of like my older fandoms that I still dabble in, but I'm not as heavily involved in are teen wolf, the 100, and the west wing. So I'm a little all over the board, but those last three, I don't dabble in as heavily as I used to, you know.
Jo:It's funny. I know a lot of people who were in The West Wing fandom, but I was not myself.
Tiana:But I
Jo:know, like, a lot of them migrated to, like, legal dramas, like The Good Wife and stuff, which I was which I listened to. So that's
Tiana:how I know a
Jo:lot of people and and but, yeah, the worst thing to ever be fascinating.
Tiana:Yeah. It's actually funny too because before I was writing or sorry. Before I was making TikToks about, like, fandom and fan fiction specifically just, like, as a greater topic, I was essentially on West Wing, TikTok. So, like, there was a yeah. There was,
Jo:a whole
Tiana:I know. There was, like, a whole, like, cluster of us who would just, like, make little jokey videos about, like, West Wing, and, like, we'd use, like, trending sounds to, like, make a reference. And, like, it was kinda funny how there was, like, a little community of it for, like, a second, and then that kind of died a little bit on TikTok. And then I sort of stopped posting for a while. And then late last year, I decided to, for some reason, start talking about fan fiction and fandom and it really took off.
Tiana:So, you know, things things can really change very quickly, you know.
Jo:Yeah. That's how I found you, obviously, through your TikTok videos about, like, all things fandom and, you know, fandom etiquette and I think that that's kind of what we're gonna be discussing in this episode. But I was just wondering, first off, like, what was your journey? What when did you start writing fan fiction and what kind of drew you to it? Because obviously, a lot of people will watch a show or read a book and be into it, but that's kind of it.
Jo:You know, they're kinda happy and stuff. So what kind of drew you towards fan fiction?
Tiana:Yeah. Imagine being normal about the media you consume. Alright. Truly could not be me.
Jo:Says the woman who has a podcast about it.
Tiana:Yeah. So real. No. So it's actually really funny. My start with fan fiction and I guess you could argue fandom didn't really start with fictional media.
Tiana:I've, like many other teenage girls, very much fell victim to reading and writing fan fiction about a real life person. And it was I was 12 when I first started, and I always like to see please tell me if either of you can relate. The very first fan fiction website I ever used was called Quizilla.
Blayne:It was an Oh my god. Not Quizilla. Wow.
Tiana:Oh, the ancient text I know.
Blayne:Side. Okay.
Jo:I was
Tiana:not on this.
Blayne:Oh, Joe. I'm I'm so sorry for a sleeper agent. I forgot completely about Quizilla. Like, oh my god.
Tiana:I was like, I have not
Blayne:heard that name in these hills in years.
Tiana:It really is like, oh, she's been dead for twenty years. You know? Like Oh my
Jo:god. It was
Tiana:so it was my sister who first got me into, the band all time low. Oh, yeah. Then subsequently, she then got me into all time low fan fiction, and she was like, Tiana, there's this website I've been using called Quizilla. You should also read this so we can talk about it. And, of course, we're, like, teenage girls.
Tiana:So the content that we thought was good obviously, if you think back on it, it was probably garbage. Like, was probably, like, bunch of, like, you know, 12, 13 year old girls getting together and just, like, writing, and then they kissed, which is, like, fine and very cute and dandy and, obviously, a a very good way to get started. But, it's just funny when you think back on it because I was truly, like, I was that 13 year old girl who was, like, writing about, like, people kissing with their pants off, and I thought it so scandalous. And I was like, oh my gosh. And, like, if my parents find out about this, I'm gonna get grounded for seven years.
Tiana:You know? Like, I was so I was so scared. But so that's definitely how I got my start was first, it was, like, I was just writing silly little scandalous things about the lead singer of my favorite band. And then somehow, it very much morphed into especially once Quizilla kind of died and the, yeah, the website doesn't even exist anymore. You can only find it on, you know, the way back machine.
Tiana:And so once that website died and I kind of moved on to other websites and then specifically a o three was I think like toward the end of my high school years is when a o three really started to get very big. Then kind of things opened up for me of like, oh, yeah. I can write fan fiction about fictional things too. Like, doesn't just have to be about, like people. Real life people.
Tiana:And so, you know, so that's when I my very first, like, big foray into writing for, like, fictional media was teen wolf, which I think was also a very universal experience for a lot of people. It was like the teen wolf fandom. So, that that was kind of like a very rough idea of, like, a timeline for me. And then after that, becoming an adult in fandom, and now here we are today. I'm pushing 30 and, you know, and now I I just kind of opened my eyes to a lot of other ones.
Tiana:And I'm kind of open to writing for anything really at this point, which I think is really cool to see the journey of, like, I was very about one thing, and now I'm like, let's do it all. Who cares? You know? Like, I'm like, whatever.
Jo:You know? That. Yeah. I think that's so great because I've heard a lot of people, especially a lot of people from, you know I I don't wanna say our generation, but, you know, Blayne and I are 31 so we're we're we're we're past the 30 but still. And yeah, but I've seen a lot of people kind of move between fandoms which I think is great.
Jo:Like, you know, I I do know a lot of people who have only been in one fandom and one fandom only, and that's fine as well,
Tiana:but I think stay there. Yeah.
Jo:But I think it's so interesting to, like, move around and then you see how certain things are the same and certain things differ.
Tiana:Like, I
Jo:always we spoke about this, but I was so because I was in really small fandoms when I started out, we didn't really tag stuff. Like, unless you were targeting, like, the main pairing, which, like, obviously, you would, but we didn't really tag stuff. And I only discovered that, like, tagging like, aggressively tagging was a thing when I joined, like, a much bigger fandom, and I was like, oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah.
Tiana:And honestly, I've tried to have the greater conversation about tags in some videos in the past couple of months. And man, I did not know the can of worms I was opening because, like, I guess because of the fandoms I'm specific I've specifically run ran in the past three years when I, like, really joined the shadow and bone fandom, and then I really got into, like, the star wars fandom and, like oh, I've also written stuff for the, the show the fallout show that's based off the video game, that one too. And, like, and I realized, like, oh, these these are all like, lot of the people I interact with are adults. Like, I really only all interact with adults in fandom as I want to. But also, we all seem to have a very similar mindset about how we want to present our stories, which is like we want them to be tagged appropriately and like we want to make sure that people know what they're signing up for when they go in.
Tiana:But then I tried to have that conversation on TikTok and I immediately got slammed with people being like, well, actually, you don't need to tag your fic at all. And, like, and it just like yeah. And it and it just very much turned into this conversation of like, was once again, this is there's no nuance on TikTok. And like, I was trying to make a very specific point and talk from a very specific angle. And immediately, got hit with, but actually, you're talking about waffles and I'm gonna talk about pancakes.
Tiana:And I was like, hey, we aren't we're not talking about that. You know? Like, anyway, so it's the the topic of tags, I think, will always be a little not controversial, but I think a lot of people forget that there is gonna be an error margin, and I recognize that. But, like, other people aren't recognizing the error margin. So No.
Jo:A %. And so I was wondering. So you've just mentioned your TikTok and your TikTok videos and and the kind of the stuff that you post about, like, tagging and fun of etiquette and stuff like that. And so you've mentioned that you kind of transitioned from being on the West Wing TikTok to doing that. And I was wondering what motivated you to start making these I don't wanna say educational, but
Tiana:I'm taking you to school.
Jo:But, you know, more about, like, the lore of fan fiction fiction and what it means to be in fandom and stuff. What what kind of motivated you to start making those videos to on on TikTok specifically?
Tiana:Yeah. It was kind of I feel like like all great people say, I kind of fell into it. So at the November, I made this video where I was replying to another creator and about how there was a bit of a miscommunication in terms of what the new a o three terms of service said because the terms of service had just been updated. And a lot of people were misconstruing something that was being said in the terms of service to where they were now thinking that all of our information on a o three, all of our data was just being, like, given to the the government, the US government. Oh, and like yeah.
Tiana:It was this very weird miscommunication misinterpretation thing. And so I made a response video to the creator who had made a video and that video was getting a lot of views. And I went to bed post I posted it like 10PM, so I didn't think it was gonna do very well because when I post a video that late, it it's it never performs. I went to bed and I woke up the next day and it was at like a hundred thousand views already. Oh, wow.
Tiana:Then over the course of that whole day, it it went up to, like, 700,000 views. And I was suddenly, like, thrust into this. People were, like, asking me all these questions, like, about a o three and, like, about fan fiction and about fandom. And I just kind of, like, started replying to a few just to be like, oh, this person asked me a question and I feel like I have the tools to answer it. So let me answer it.
Tiana:And then it just kind of snowballed. Mhmm. You know what I mean? And it just kind of, like, turned into this. I feel like there are so many people who don't really understand what the fandom community is and what it can be when they just take it at face value or, like, because they've never really dabbled or, you know, looked into it.
Tiana:And I feel like so many people are hesitant to talk about fandom because, you know, as we know, people really like to keep their fandom and fanfic persona private and quiet. So I'm kind of like, well, if I'm willing to be that face like, I'm not saying I'm the face of fandom. I just mean like if I'm willing to be one of those people who will talk about it openly and I'm okay with that, You know, I feel like there there can be value in that. You know what I mean? Of like, okay.
Tiana:No. I will openly talk about fandom and fan fiction because although it is more mainstream nowadays than it was say, you know, even six or seven years ago, it is still in a way taboo to almost like try to analyze and dissect it in a way. Does that like make sense? You know?
Blayne:Yeah. Yeah. Completely.
Tiana:Yeah. So, I think that that was kind of why suddenly I felt like myself like feeling motivated to like, make these videos and answer these questions that I was getting because I realized, like, oh, yeah. Some people aren't, like, openly talking about this. And when people are having these conversations, I feel like people are always coming at it from, a very defensive standpoint where because people in fandom are notoriously opinionated. And so I I think that, like, you know, when you when you try to open the conversation, a lot of people very much are coming at it from a I don't know.
Tiana:I I don't really have a word for it, but a where it almost feels like you can't have a productive conversation because people are so staunch in their opinions and their takes. And don't get me wrong. I'm staunch in my opinions and my takes too, but I also think that I'm trying to come at it from an angle of like, but at the end of the day, this is a community where everyone should feel welcome and it needs to be a safe space because fandom has always inherently been a space. So why not talk about it? You know what I mean?
Jo:So Definitely. And I'm I'm wondering, like, because obviously with TikTok and stuff, I think fandom has been and fun fiction has been slowly going more and more mainstream. Do you think there's, like, a new wave of people joining fandom because of TikTok? And do you think, you know, there's a difference between the way that people get into fandom now? And is that something that you've noticed?
Jo:And is that something that you have any sort of take on, or are you seeing anything that differs from what you've seen in the past? Because, obviously, you've been in fandom for so long.
Tiana:I I would definitely say that there's clearly been a shift in terms of how people enter fandom, maybe in a weird kind of way to say it, like why people enter fandom as well as how they then choose to interact with the community. And one thing I always try to make clear in my videos when I am talking about fandom culture and fandom etiquette is I'm not saying that fandom can't change and adapt and grow because it has and it always will. Mhmm. And I want it to change and adapt and grow, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't still be adhering to certain ways that we've been operating because they are ways that keep the community safe and welcome. And so when I talk about, like, oh, it's so different now as opposed to, say, like, ten years ago, like you were saying, in terms of, like, how people are entering the space.
Tiana:Because of things like TikTok and because of and I talked about this in my videos where I discussed, like, why a o three will never have an algorithm, you know, is that, like, people are so used to having their content online so perfectly curated to them. Yeah. And so when Yeah. When people when people are entering these fandom and fan fiction communities and they're the crux of their online experience has been through these curated algorithms, they then are expecting the fandom and fan fiction community at large to kind of adapt to what they want, which is Yeah. I want everything to be accessible to me a %.
Tiana:I want all of my fix to be finished. I want all anything I'm going to engage with has to be a % done. I you know, it it's kind of an it's kind of like an instant gratification thing. Of they are so used to everything being tailored to them that when they enter a community like this, they can't understand why it's not being tailored to them. So that upsets them and they're gonna be vocal about it.
Tiana:And that's when we kind of start to see this weird change in fandom mindset of, like, new fandom goers where they are so set on trying to kind of, like, change the makeup of fandom even if they don't realize they're doing it. But, like, at a certain point, take accountability. Like, recognize that you're entering a space and you're trying to change the space. You know what I mean?
Blayne:I think the thing about completed fix is, like, so so just, like, bang on because you see I mean, like, I'll even see throughout comments of, like, you know, fix, but I'm scrolling because, like, I'm messy, and I love to go read the comments. Of course. And, you know, it's not even my fix. And, like but it's it's you get a lot of people who it's this sort of, like, it'll have been a month or so. Like, I mean, when you're talking about in fandom spaces, like like, it's literally two seconds since it's last updated.
Blayne:And you get these kind of hounding comments of, like, one is this gonna be updated? Why is this been updated yet? And I'm like, babe, I am sitting on fix that, like, I'm still, quote, unquote, actively reading, and they haven't been updated in, like, six years. Like, do me to take over.
Tiana:Dude, it's so funny you say that because I've been, like, writing this fic, since I wanna say September of last year. And I I I think it was, like, I posted chapter three, and then I went quiet for, like, a month. And I got a comment where someone was like, wow. I really hate that you abandoned this fic. And I was like, it's been four weeks.
Tiana:No.
Blayne:Like, a month is, like, you blink in fandom time. Literally. It's wild.
Tiana:Literally.
Blayne:Yeah. Yeah. There this there is kind of a I think the instant gratification point and almost like the contentification if we're gonna make a new word of it. And, like, of, like, yeah, not seeing, you know, fanfic as I mean, really the gift that it is and and this sort of sense of I'm, you know, I'm doing this because I love it and I wanna be active in a space and in a community. And more seeing it as like, oh, well, I expect people to produce a product for me.
Blayne:And I'm like, that's just not what fandom is. Yeah.
Tiana:A %. There's very much been this shift away from the gift economy mindset into people are treating it like a consumerism thing where it's like, you know, I've talked about this in multiple videos of, of the whole, like, readers are calling writers entitled because they're like, well, why why are you expecting engagement? You don't you you don't you have to earn engagement. But then it's like, well, we're not the ones that are entitled readers. I'm so sorry.
Tiana:You guys are the ones being entitled because then you are expecting us to constantly be giving you things to read, and then you get upset with us when we don't give it to you, but then you don't engage with our works. It's this constant cycle of, like, no one is willing to talk about it, which is why I am. Which is why I'm like, well, no. Let's talk about it. Let's pick apart why this is happening, you know.
Tiana:So
Jo:I've definitely seen that happen more and more. And so for context, I'm very recently finished a long work that I had going on for over four years.
Tiana:Oh my gosh. Period. Congratulations. I
Jo:was
Tiana:I
Jo:was trouble with horns. It's 406,000 words.
Tiana:Oh my god. Oh my god. Wow.
Blayne:Yeah. No. It's it's like a tome.
Tiana:A tome.
Jo:And since, you know, finishing life last August, I've been receiving comments on different occasions from different people saying to me, oh, I never comment on fix, but I wanted to let you know that yours is great and whatever. And it's like, I always thank these these people because I'm very grateful and I'm like, oh, thank you so much. But at the same time, some of them, I've challenged them. I'm like, okay. But why are you not?
Jo:Is it because you want me to think that I'm special or something? Do you know what mean? I just felt very weird about it and about these messages that I get sometimes that like, I never comment on fixed but I'm like, why is that your policy? Like, why do you have a policy that's like, oh, don't I've never come at home fixed, you know? Because it's like, it's engagement.
Jo:It's community. Right?
Tiana:Exactly. Exactly. And like, specifically around the comment, like, conversation, which is one I've had a lot on my page as well. I I I get a lot of people who are like like, why do you care so much? Why does it matter?
Tiana:Like, you yourself talk about how you get a decent amount of engagement on your fix, so, like, why are you making this such a big point? And, like, blah blah blah. And the thing that I always say is, with the videos that I make, even if I change one person's mind or and I don't wanna seriously change their mind because it makes me feel like I'm brainwashing somebody. Like, if I, like, get them to shift their perspective even a little bit, I feel like I've done what I intended to do because so very quickly after that 700,000 view video that I did about the terms of service, I then posted a video pretty soon after that that was specifically about how people are complaining that they never have any new fix to read, but they don't engage. So, you know, if you're not gonna engage, authors are gonna stop posting and how it's a cycle.
Blayne:Yeah.
Tiana:And that one also did very well. That one got like a lot of views as well. And in the comment section, like a week or two after I first posted it, I started getting a bunch of comments of people being like, hey, I think you actually did something with this because I started getting people commenting on my fix saying, I guess I need to be commenting on fix and like someone pointed out to me how it's actually really important. So here's me commenting to tell you that I really like I had a number of people telling me that they saw, like, an actual tangible change even, like, in very small ways of, like, at least just a few more people engaging because they were like, I was told that this is important, so I'm gonna do it. And I think that, like, even that is enough to tell me, like, oh, these videos are, like, resonating with people.
Tiana:You know what I mean? And I think that that's, like, enough for me to feel like I'm at least doing something even if it sometimes feels like I'm just yapping at my camera in the kitchen. Cause I film everything in my kitchen. You know? And so, like, so it's like, oh, I feel like I'm actually helping in, like, a way.
Tiana:You know what I mean? And so, like, it does suck because, like, when people say, I guess I'll comment. It's a little shitty because it's like, I mean, why weren't you doing that before? Like, what do I have to do? Like like, literally get down on my knees and, like, beg you to comment on my fic even if it's just one.
Tiana:But, like, at least we're starting to see it might be a slow growth and a slow change, but I think we are finally starting to see people recognizing why they need to be more present and more engaged because that will help them get more of what they want, which is more fixed to read. You know what I mean?
Jo:I think what's really interesting as well in that conversation is, you know, when people are like, oh, I don't comment because it's just content posted on the post on the Internet. It's like a YouTube video. It's like stuff that I consume for free on the Internet. You know, that's why I'm handling this author for updates. That's why or that's why I'm not commenting.
Jo:But what I've always said was like, you know, we're not making money off of this. You don't have the aspect of like content creation where it's like, I used to watch a lot of YouTubers in my day like, you know, but they they get paid for advertising. They get paid for x y zed. It's not and it's literally not the same because fanfic writers are not getting paid. Yes, yes, that does matter because, you know, you're you're taking time out of your day.
Jo:For some people, it's just fifteen minutes to write like a quick travel. For some people, it's hours and hours and hours and hours to produce content for free. And then, you know, people are not even engaging in the comments. And and it's yes. Of course, it is, you know, something that we do because we love it.
Jo:I think most people who write fan fiction write fan fiction because they love it. It's still something that I'm doing for free and that, like, the the it's not the least I can get, but it's like you wanna be part of a community and that is the only reward that you get for producing content in that space is to be part of that community.
Tiana:Exactly. And like, I I've been toying with this idea of like making a video because unfortunately, there are some videos where I actually have to sit down and write like a little mini script, which feels so dumb because it's a TikTok. But if I don't, I will I will yap into my heart's consent, like, content, and then it's like a ten minute video, and I've, like, gone off on 18 different tangents. But, like, specifically to aim toward fan fiction fan fiction writers of, like, we need to reclaim the quote unquote writers write for themselves thing because, like, that is true. We do write for ourselves.
Tiana:You know? Writing is quite literally my favorite hobby. I genuinely would love to make a career out of it one day and, like, I I there's nothing I get more happiness out of. But at the end of the day, when I'm posting my fan fiction online, I'm not posting it for myself, I'm posting it to find an audience. It can be very discouraging when I feel like I found my audience because I see hits going up, I see people are kudos ing, I maybe see people bookmarking, but then it's like radio silence other than that.
Tiana:So it's like, oh, wait. I found my audience, but I feel like my audience doesn't want to engage with me the way that I was hoping that they would want to engage with me. And like one thing that I one time said in a different video from like, a really long time ago is I think something a lot of fan fiction readers, whether they be new or old, don't understand or don't remember is that a lot of really long, term fan fiction, like these fics that are, like, over a hundred thousands of words and, like, had like, have a lot of views and, like, a lot of engagement, a lot of those fics wouldn't be what they are without the community around them in the sense that, like, there are so many fics that, like, receive theories and discussion and people, you know, picking apart old chapters in order to try to figure out, like, where the writer's gonna take things. And, like and sometimes a writer will see that engagement and real and see, like, what, like, you know, breadcrumbs people are picking up and what pathways people are creating, and they will take that and move forward with it in order to take the the direction that maybe either the readers were expecting or weren't expecting because, you know, like, it is just interesting how these people are like, I want 200,000 words on my desk by Monday, but, like, they aren't willing to realize like, oh, those 200,000 words not only come from the writer, but they come from the community.
Tiana:And they're so unwilling to, like, recognize that. You know?
Jo:I
Blayne:think what's the community piece to me is so interesting because it's, like, kind of on that, you know, seeing fanfic as just sort of content. Like, it's almost this double think of because you get a lot of in, like, published fix spaces of, like, people wishing there to be more kind of a dialogue between author and reader and, like, kind of that like, there's that whole complication of, reviews are for readers and they are not for authors. And, like, some authors can get in kind of sticky situations stalking their Goodreads and then writing fake Goodreads reviews under fake Goodreads accounts and then getting their contracts pulled. But I think I think that it's it's it's to me, it's really fascinating because I think when you started in the, you know, the the ancient texts, the old sites like, I was on, like, Harry Potter fan fiction dot net, like, back in the day when they had, like, an AI like, like, a chat I'm feature, like, scrolling in, like, the left hand side of the page. And it was just sort of anyone who was online could kind of, like, join this I'm.
Blayne:And it was like and, you know, we all kind of knew each other's schedules, and we were like, oh, it's 4PM. Like, you know, Slytherin ice queen's gonna be joining too. Well, oh, no. We we're like, Weasley twin mom finally had their kids down. She's probably gonna be joining soon, and we would, like, all sit chat for a bit.
Blayne:And, like, it was it was I mean, it was wild. Like, you know, the I I would say, like, my unfettered Internet access at, like, 14 has taken me places that I would go with a gun now. Oh, we
Tiana:we were truly in the wild West.
Blayne:In the trenches. In
Tiana:the trenches. Crazy.
Blayne:Why I find it so funny when people, like, say that a o three's tagging is, like, not a complete system or, like, has a lot of flaws. And I'm like, at least there are tags. Like, I don't
Tiana:think you understand. We were
Blayne:we were using citrus fruit to try and signal how slutty this.
Tiana:Literally. Like, it's like, do you wanna go back to that? Because we can, but, like We
Jo:can have it. Like
Blayne:I hope you know what lemon v lime is. Literally.
Tiana:No. It's it's so funny you say the, the portion about, like, you know, published authors and, like, you know, the whole, like, oh, well, reviews are for readers and which I completely agree with in terms of, like, in terms of I purchased this book. I read it. I'm so this is my opinion on it, and I do feel like I have the right to go, you know, give my opinion of it online. Now how I do still think there's etiquette around that.
Tiana:So like for example, like yeah. Not to bring up my sister again, but, you know, she is my best best friend. But she is like really big in like Bookstagram and so she's like really heavily involved in that community. And one thing she notices a lot is that even if somebody posts a negative review, they will still tag the author in the review. Oh, that's shitty.
Tiana:Yeah. That's so shitty. And so, like yeah. And so it's like, hey. You can have, like, a negative opinion about this book and you can have not liked it.
Tiana:You could have DNF'd it, like, whatever. But if you are deliberately tagging the author, that tells me that you're you're not doing this as like a good faith, hey, I just wanna let my followers know I didn't like this book, but so, you know, be warned when you go into it. Yeah. This is you wanting the author to see it. Like, you want the author to know you didn't like their book and it gets to a point where it's like, that tells me you're not engaging in like a good faith way, you know.
Tiana:And I think that there that can that can very much cross over into fan fiction when especially with you with the rise in how BookTok has very much discovered fan fiction, and now there's an entire facet of BookTok that has taken fan fiction and is trying to make fan fiction kind of their own thing. And so we're seeing that they treat fan fiction similar to they treat published books, which is they are leaving reviews and they'll do it in public spaces so that the fan fiction author sees it and sometimes it won't be a nice review. And and it just kind of turns into this like, oh, so this is another way that we're commodifying fan fiction. You know what I mean?
Jo:Yeah. Because I think that you you just touched a very interesting point. I've seen a lot of your videos that are about like negative comments. Right? Like negative comments, negative reviews, and just kind of commenting etiquette in general.
Jo:And I see that you kind of post a lot of about the kind of ethos of fan fiction or at least what was the ethos of fan fiction, which is don't like, don't read. And I'm wondering if, you know, what is your take on that? What are you seeing from certain readers, especially people involved in TikTok? And where do you think that's heading? Because because I've I've definitely and Blaine knows this.
Jo:I've definitely had my share of negative comments in the past four years. And so I'm just wondering kind of what you see than that and and what's your take on that?
Tiana:Yeah. I like you said, I have touched on this quite a few times and, like, I think that when I try to say people should employ the don't like, don't read rule, I also think that that can be a rule people can use not even just in fan fiction in terms of like even when I'm just like scrolling on my for you page and I see a video with like an opinion that I disagree with or content that I don't really like or so on, I I will maybe like frown at my phone and then I keep scrolling. You know what I mean? And I think that we're currently living in this, like, time where because social media and the Internet has kind of turned into what it is and social media and the Internet unfortunately feel one in the same, like, even though they are two different things, they, for some reason, feel like they have really gone hand in hand in the past few years. We're seeing this thing where people, if they consume something, they feel like they are given the right to comment on it regardless of what their comment is.
Tiana:Like, they're like, well, I looked at this so that means I'm allowed to say something about it. And it's like, sure, you are. And this is, you know, something I said in another video, which is like, yeah, you're not gonna get kicked off of a o three for making one negative mean comment, but you are going to have to socially see consequences of that. And there was another thing that this other creator said that I that because they were replying to a video that I made about this topic and they added onto the conversation and they said something that really resonated with me, which is, you know, unwanted and unsolicited quote unquote criticism is always a negative act. It's never going like, if I didn't ask you for feedback, if I didn't ask you for your quote unquote constructive criticism in the comments, that is a negative act because it is you telling me, hey.
Tiana:You should have done this with your story or I think you should have done this or why did you do this? So on and so forth. What are like, what are you trying to gain out of that? You know what I mean? And that's always the question I try to pose to these people is like, is the actual benefit to you leaving these negative comments and you leaving this quote unquote review in your bookmarks that's a negative one that that the author will probably see that's truly only for you.
Tiana:You're only you're only gaining something out of that because at the end of the day, the author already wrote it. The author already posted it and the author is going to write what they want to write. And especially in this space where they are not getting anything out of it other than engagement, and so you're truly just trying to make them feel bad about their hobby, which I I genuinely to this day, it baffles me that people don't understand why that is a negative act and what they're doing is shitty. You know what I mean? Like, I you can explain it to them in so many different terms, up, down, sideways, left, right, and they're still going to argue with you because they feel like it is their god given right.
Tiana:And I say this to somebody who's not religious. Their god given right to, like, be able to say whatever they want on the Internet. You know what I mean? And it's like, okay. You don't have to.
Tiana:Like, you can be quiet. It's okay to be quiet sometimes.
Jo:Oh my god. I have so many thoughts
Tiana:about it. Please tell me all of them.
Jo:This reminds me of one incident in particular, which was
Tiana:Oh, I can't wait.
Jo:A comment from someone who was trying to out Canon me, like, because I had Canon compliance. And so someone who was trying to be like, oh, you got this, like, really small detail in Canon wrong. And the first thing
Tiana:My god. Sorry.
Jo:The first thing that I responded at the beginning was like, well, what do you want me to do about this? Like, this fake is like well, the chapter that they were commenting on was like two years old at that stage. I was like, what is the goal of this? Like, are you looking for me to change something that I've published two years ago? Are you looking for me to feel bad?
Jo:Like, what is the point of this? And I started getting into this
Tiana:Yeah.
Jo:Kind of messy argument stick threads in the comments with them and then some of my followers kinda jumped in and so I was a bit annoyed and I was like, I I jumped on Tumblr and I was like, I was kinda talking to to other people and I was like, just stop interacting with this asshole. Like, it's
Tiana:fine. Yeah.
Jo:And they so the person who is commenting then found my Tumblr and got offended that I called them an asshole. Jesus Christ. And I I wrote this, like, really long post on Tumblr that was like, yes. Yes. I called you an asshole because you were being one.
Jo:And, you will have a right you have a right to be one. Like, yes, you're not gonna be kicked off of a zero three if if, you know, you're you're you're being you're behaving like an asshole. Yeah. Of course. You have you have a right to be one.
Jo:Just like in society, you have the right to behave like an asshole. Like, it's not a crime to be a really annoying human being, but it's not something that you should strive towards. Right? And when you are behaving like that, you are subjecting and you're opening yourself to the fact that other people in that same community, in that same society are gonna react to that and call you out on it. And the fact that, like, they were so offended that I called them an asshole, was like, yeah, because you're behaving like one.
Jo:And and that is kind of the Absolutely. You're behaving you're behaving like someone I don't want in this community. I've spoken about this on the podcast before, but I always respond. So I respond to all comments and I always respond especially to the negative ones and especially when they're being, like, not really constructive and and being just mean and stuff like that because I always think a little bit like you were talking about how you feel like you are happy to be the face of, quote, unquote, the face of bandom on TikTok or whatever. I'm happy to be the one who calls you out on this in my comment section.
Tiana:Yeah. Yeah.
Jo:And so I've been, you know, I've been getting into a lot of arguments over the years with people being like, what do you expect from this? Because my thing is always like, I am obviously a grown woman. I am very you know, I'm an experienced writer, and I can deal with it. Like, I know I know you're being an asshole and, like, whatever. But I think a lot of people in in fandom are people who are just starting out writing.
Jo:Either they're very young or they're just inexperienced. And I don't want you to be in their comment section because I think if I had been to receive that kind of comment when I was starting out, I'm not sure I would still be writing. And it's crushing and I'm like, I don't want these people like, it's okay if they do it to me kind of thing, but I'm like, I don't want you to do it to someone else. And so
Tiana:Yes.
Jo:You know, I think to your point about, like, making these videos and trying to touch people and trying to impart that on people, I think it's really important as well, like, at least for me as someone who's older in fandom and who has, you know, more experience in fandom, has been in fandom for years, to communicate these ideas as well because, again, it's a community and a complete community is allowed to self police. And, again, that's why I really loved your videos on that topic is that I was like, not only are you right about this, but I think there's this idea that I think it's our collective duty as a community to inform people that that is not the way that you behave within this community.
Tiana:And specifically on your point about, like, you wouldn't want those people to go into the comment section of a newer younger writer
Jo:Yes.
Tiana:The amount of comments I've gotten on my videos where I'm talking about misbehaviors in fandom like this is people being like, yeah. I one time posted a fan fiction, like, four years ago. It was, my first time posting it, and all I got were, like, really negative comments of people just tearing apart my writing, and it was so discouraging that I'd never written again. And it and it's really sad because it's like also in a different video, I had been replying to another comment where someone was, like, trying to argue why you should give criticism to fan fiction writers. And I said, like, sure.
Tiana:You and I can handle negative comments like people who are, I quote unquote, fandom elders, and we've been doing this for a long time and we have a thicker skin. But when it's like, let's say, like, an 18 year old kid who's finally gained the courage to, like, put their fan fiction up for the first time and all they're met with is immediate criticism about how, like, their writing isn't up to par or, like, it's, quote, unquote, low quality, like, that's so discouraging. And then that's how you kill a fandom or a fan fiction writer before they've even started. And, like, why are we trying to inspire that type of, you know, response from the community? You know?
Tiana:So, like, I I really appreciate your point on you saying, like, yeah, be in my comment section, but don't you fucking dare go to another person's comment section. You know what I mean? Like What's
Blayne:the what's the phrase where it's like honesty without like kindness is just brutality? Like, even if you think
Tiana:that you're
Blayne:like Yes. Even if you think that you're, like, doing this person a favor, which, like, we can, you know Yeah. All disagree with. But, like, it's like, let's let's even let's even say that, you know, you as a person who are leaving a, quote, unquote, you know, constructive criticism, which don't even get me started on that because I can tell you, like, I I I don't think I've ever seen a piece of unsolicited, quote, unquote, constructive critique. Literally.
Blayne:It's it's just it's never constructive. It's just this kind of like, I've jumped on my high horse, and now I have to go cry about the town.
Tiana:Literally. I think to your to your point,
Blayne:you brought it, Chad, that I think is really, really interesting of like, you know, this this social media and these, you know, the kind of way that we interact with social media, like, you know, giving a permission structure to, like, you know, have an opinion on anything. I would almost take it a step further and argue that, like, it creates a mandate to have an opinion on everything. Like, everyone feels like they have to, like, respond in real time to something happening before, like I don't know. Sit taking a step back and either going, this is something I don't even involve myself in or formulating, like, a robust opinion on it. And you also see, like, this this weird rise around, like, that kind of, like, my, you know, opinion being, you know, this kind of untouchable thing that, like, cannot therefore then bear scrutiny because I formed it so quickly.
Blayne:Monkey brain gives me, you know, the great feedback loop if I dig my heels in. And it it creates this brutal cycle of, like, what are we doing here? You formulated this instantaneous opinion on this fic that you now feel like you have a mandate to inform this writer on. They respond and rightfully, you know, like Joe, call you an asshole.
Tiana:Period. Yeah.
Blayne:Right? And your response is then I always love to to quote this. When I have two younger siblings, and they were both fighting when they were little. And my brother hit my sister, and he run he's my sister's like, I'm gonna go tell our parents. And he's like, I'm gonna go tell our parents.
Blayne:And so they both run into our parents' room. And my sister goes, you know, oh, our brother hit me. And my brother goes, oh, I hit our sister, and she told on me. Like, I I it's it's the, like, oh, that, you know, I pissed them off, and now they're mad at me. And it's like, what did you expect?
Tiana:Yeah. No. Literally. And, like, specifically, to your point about how that, like, there is this, like, brutal cycle of, like, a mandate of of people, like, feel like they should and have to share their opinion on everything, it really does turn into this kind of, like, I guess you could kind of say, like, this loop, just to not use the word cycle again, of of, like, this thing that I the only way that I know how to put it is that the younger fandom goers who grew up on the Internet have, like, heavily tied their morals and values to the media that they consume. And so Yes.
Tiana:Oh my god. And so by I could talk about this for 16 straight Literally. And so, like, by association, the media that they disagree with and because of their personal ties, they assume that anyone else supporting a type of media must simply mean that that person supports, like, that media in their day to day life. Like, as in, like, if something specific happened in that that was, like, a dark theme, that means that person walks with that dark theme in their life and supports it in real life too. Yeah.
Tiana:And so we're seeing this kind of like when we when we talk about negative comments, we're not just seeing negative comments in terms of like, oh, I just think your writing is bad. We're also seeing negative comments of people really truly going into these comment sections of fan fiction with, like, specific themes that are maybe a little bit more uncomfy, a little bit more, like, hard to, like, navigate and just absolutely harassing the author because they're like, why would you write this? This is disgusting. Clearly, you're a degenerate. Clearly, you're a criminal.
Tiana:You need to be arrested. Like, all these things that, like, eventually turn into not only do they have, like, a mandated opinion, they believe their opinion is so correct because they disagree heavily with the media that that fan fiction is, like, tied to that they they need, like, a tangible result. Like, they need their opinion to turn into, I'm running you off the Internet. I'm you know, you're there's like some kind of consequence for you. And it's like, what are we at that point, it's like, truly, what are we doing?
Tiana:Like, why are we engaging this way? You know what I mean?
Blayne:Because it's it's puritanical ethos being applied
Tiana:to Yes.
Blayne:Being applied to to fanning spaces. I mean, Joe, I I I'd be so curious on your thoughts on this because both, you know, Joe and I write, like, particularly dark themes. And,
Tiana:like Yeah.
Blayne:I managed to, like, fly right? I managed to, like, fly pretty under the radar. Thank god. So, like, I don't I don't necessarily have to, like, you know, deal with that in my comments, but, like, I know, you know, canceled obviously, like, rightfully so exploded. And, like, it deals with a lot of, like, very dark themes around, like, sexual violence and women in war.
Blayne:And, like, I I just I can't even imagine the sludge you've had to go through, Joe.
Jo:So funny enough, not really.
Blayne:I mean, I'm Thank god.
Tiana:Was don't know. Literally.
Jo:It's like, you know, touching wood, like, I've not I I mean, for context, I wrote, like, castles, which is my my long work. I lived in section of fandom that is not very used to that kind of dark content. Right? It's it's a section of fandom that is very either fluffy or very heavy on what I call low stakes angst, which is like, you know, romantic angst kind of thing or, you know, miscommunications or things like that which, like, no shade to that but it's not really like heavy angst of like sexual violence and women in war. You know what I mean?
Tiana:Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Right? Very, very different types of angst
Jo:for sure. And so, like, I think a lot of people were kind of put off by the themes of castles. So I got comments that were not against me as a person or against me as, like, saying, oh, you're degenerate or whatever. But I did get comments that was like, you're not supposed to write this. Like, you're not supposed to write this in this section of London.
Jo:Like, canon would never go there, so you can't do you know what I mean? Like, it was like, oh, this is not consistent with the way that canon is and so you cannot write that. But I've never had and again, touchwoods, like, I've never had anything that was against me as a person. And then these people, thankfully, and I think, thankfully for them as well, just started ignoring me and ignoring my fix, which is all that I wanted, really.
Tiana:Yeah. I was gonna say Don't write. Don't read. Literally.
Jo:And so they didn't like. And after giving me a couple of comments to that effect, they left.
Tiana:And Thank god.
Jo:They found another readership which was much more agreeable to what I
Tiana:was talking about. Yeah.
Jo:And so that but that was a journey. But yeah. Like but I do think the reason why I never got those, like, you're a degenerate sort of comments is also because the story that I was writing was dealing with difficult fiends, but it was not glorifying anything and it was not from the point of view of the perpetrator. It was from the point of view of the victim. And so I think
Tiana:Yeah. Yeah.
Jo:In that way, it's less, quote, unquote, shocking to people because it's, like, it's still an accepted narrative. It's just not what people are used to reading versus for a lot of other writers, which honestly, like, kudos to them because that's a very, very hard narrative to build when you're writing from the point of view of perpetrators of that might be a lot harder to, like, have readers build empathy and so a lot you're a lot more subject to those kind of comments, I think.
Tiana:Absolutely. I % agree. And like Yeah. I it's funny too because I luckily, I'm I'm I feel very blessed. I don't get very many negative comments on my fan fiction.
Tiana:And I think the reason would be because so specifically well, I guess we can talk about the shadow and bone fandom very briefly. I'm not gonna go too into detail, but I'm in one subsection of the fandom that a lot of people disagree with, don't like in the sense that, like, we ship two characters people don't want together usually. And the fandom I'm a part of, I'll just say it, the Darklena fandom has a lot of crossover with the Reylo fandom, which is another very notoriously hated fandom. I am not a Raylo myself. I could wax poetry about how I actually really dislike the Raylo ship, but I interact with a lot of Raylo writers.
Tiana:I also read Raylo fan fiction because I also do think there are a lot of really good fan fiction writers in the Raylo fandom. And so I engage with their works because I think they're really good. And there's kind of like the people in these specific types of fandoms are very, like, very good at drawing the boundaries of at the end of the day, this is fiction. So if I write this regardless of what point of view I'm writing it from, it isn't real and I it's something that I just like needed to get out of me. It's out of me.
Tiana:It's now available for you to read if you would like to, and then we can all move on from it. You know? In the sense that, like, there there is this kind of weird like, people are always like, well, you can write that, but you cannot glorify it. You cannot romanticize it. And it's like, well, who gets to decide what's glorifying and what's romanticizing at the end of the day?
Tiana:Those are very subjective things.
Blayne:Oh, completely.
Tiana:Yeah. And then on top of that, my little 6,000 word one shot where I just needed to write something kind of, like, weird and filthy and just get it out of my system. And now it's, like, out of my system and bye, it's gone. Like, I guess, like, why do I need to be put on a pedestal and crucified for the world because I wrote that? You know what I mean?
Tiana:And, like, and I think that something that also ties to that is, like, kind of going back to the instant gratification thing a little bit and the, like, the ability to more easily control what, like, people are interacting with day to day. There's this other rise in people, like, not knowing how to be uncomfortable. And I've I've spoken about this in other videos, yeah, where it's like, they don't know how to sit with the theme and confront it within themselves. So because they, like, are con inconvenienced and uncomfortable in that way, that thing should not exist. And, you know, rather than rather than pick apart why that theme makes them feel a certain way, they'd rather it just be removed altogether.
Tiana:They never have to look at it again. Oh my god. This is disgusting. Arrest that person who wrote it, so on and so forth. And that's when we kind of really, once again, go back to a different topic, return to, like, the puritanical thinking mindset of this crusade of we need to get rid of this so that it never exists on the Internet ever.
Tiana:And then that's when people are trying to start to, like, censor places like a o three. You know what I mean?
Jo:No. Totally. And I think even something as silly as, like, in my fic, there's, a quote unquote, like bad character who ends up not going to prison and I got called a Nazi because
Blayne:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh my god. I remember that.
Jo:And I was like, are you I
Blayne:was like, are you high? Like,
Jo:what are
Blayne:Oh my god.
Tiana:And Yeah.
Jo:But yeah. And I was wondering, we kinda touched on this rapidly earlier, but I've seen a rise and especially on TikTok on this idea that there should be fandom spaces that are for readers only. Right?
Tiana:Yeah. Yeah.
Jo:To kind of either review or warn people like you've quote unquote warn people about certain things or things like that that should be readers only and specifically people have said that bookmarks are supposed to be readers only. I was wondering if you have thoughts about this and and what what you think about it because if yeah. It's as if as if the reader's face and the writer's face were two different communities.
Tiana:Yeah. I the what's really interesting about that is that that removes the community aspect, right, of like fandom overall as a community. We are not a community where there is a stark difference between the creators and the consumers sort of like how it is in like any other community, like, say, YouTubers and their viewers or, you know, authors with published books and their readers. Like, this is a community where we all are coming together to celebrate and discuss something that we all collectively enjoy, which is like a TV show, a book, what have you. And so when people try to create these stark lines of, well, over there is the writer space, I'm not gonna touch it.
Tiana:And over here is the reader space and the writers aren't allowed to touch it, that removes what I believe is the fundal fundamental like building blocks of fandom, which is kind of going back to the other thing we talked about, which is like, you know, these fics and these things that we're creating are built on community engagement and are motivated by community engagement. So when we promote this idea of, well, writers shouldn't go into their bookmarks to see who's bookmarking their fic because that is a reader space only. And if a writer goes in there and sees that a reader left a negative review in the caption of the bookmark, that's the read that's the writer's fault, which like, yeah, of course, I agree. The writer did click into it and they read it and didn't realize they were going to read it, but that goes back to the also why you shouldn't be leaving negative comments, which is like you're not really benefiting anyone other than yourself. And then maybe the number of people who would read your negative review of this fic in the bookmark because, sure, the, you know, people can see that and be like, oh, maybe I won't like this because of this negative review someone left of this fan fiction.
Tiana:But also, you know, to kind of piggyback off what wow. That sounds that's so corporate of me to piggyback off of
Jo:off of We'll
Blayne:circle back.
Tiana:We'll circle back. You know? And, like, when when you said about how people also want to have a reader space in order to quote unquote warn other readers, that is another reason we have the tagging system. You know? Is that, like, a a reader will already know in a way what they're getting into and what they're signing up for based on the tags of the fic, which is why the tagging system is so lucrative and significant and important to me at this point.
Tiana:Because it's like, don't need to see some fuck ass negative review that this jerk left on the bookmark that he made of my fic. Instead, you can just recognize these tags aren't for you. Okay. Cool. Move on.
Tiana:You know what I mean? Like, I I just think that the whole writer space, reader space is such an interesting conversation, especially because and I'm assuming, Joe, you saw this if you watched some of my videos on it. A lot of it seems to be very heavily inspired by a o three conversations on Reddit, which I will admit even to this day, I I still am not I don't use Reddit. I did not go read conversations.
Blayne:Yeah. People
Jo:Oh, I do.
Tiana:I've read the Yeah. Well, so what after, like, my video ended up on Reddit and I think I don't know, like, the number of people who were involved in the conversation, but, like, I sent the link of it to my sister and I was like, hey. Let me know. Are people being dumbasses and being really rude to me? Because I'm not gonna go read it myself.
Tiana:And at least when she went and looked at it, she was like, actually, people aren't really being mean to you. They are there are some people who are disagreeing, but like mostly it's just kind of like once again reigniting the conversation. People are just arguing, but they're not really being mean to you. And I was like, okay. Then I'll, like, leave it and, like, they can argue with the wall because it's not gonna change my opinion.
Tiana:You know what I mean? It is just interesting because Reddit, I think, is a whole other beast within itself because also people people are very notoriously opinionated on Reddit and they're all going to vocalize their opinion. And so I don't know. But, Jo, you said you went in there? Kudos to you.
Tiana:Couldn't be me.
Jo:Yeah. I so I think it's also, like, for my own mental health, but I treat Reddit as like a reader space.
Tiana:Oh, is. Yeah.
Jo:I am part of communities where my fic is regularly recommended and discussed.
Tiana:Love that.
Jo:And I will I I do read most of it, but I never participate. And I think the reason for that is to me, Reddit is off platform. Right? It's off a o three.
Tiana:Yes. Oh, yeah. It's a very different space. A %.
Jo:Yeah. It's not someone coming into my comments. It's not someone coming into my DMs on Tumblr. It is someone having a conversation on the on an external site. So I do kind of treat Reddit as I personally believe published authors should treat Goodreads, which is like,
Blayne:it's Yeah.
Jo:People talking about you without you being there. And if you want to read it because I'm allowed to read it, but I do engage at my own risk. Right? There have been instances where I've seen people put criticism of my stuff on Reddit and it's like, yeah, it's never really nice to read it like because it's never really nice to hear someone didn't like your story or whatever. But I do consider that to be at my own risk.
Jo:Like, I actively sought that out and I am, you know, being confronted with someone who didn't like my story and that's for me to deal with. That's not for them because they didn't comment. They didn't comment. They didn't comment on my on my TikTok. And that's also something that I've kind of imparted on people who were in my comment section leaving criticism.
Jo:It's like, you're literally coming directly into my email with this. This is not the same thing as like leaving a review on Goodreads where the author will check it at their own rest. It's like literally that your negativity is like being sent sent straight to my email. Now I understand that that is not really applicable to bookmarks, but to me, it's still to me, criticizing fics in bookmarks are just cowards because it's like then they're not they're not leaving it in the comments, they're doing it in the bookmarks. Like, when you can't respond.
Jo:Right? Because that's always my thing. It's like, sometimes I'm like, I would like to respond to you and I would like to explain to you why you're wrong, but I can't because I can't respond to a bookmark. And so I think there's a there's a level of cowardice there. But I do think ultimately, Reddit to me is a little bit is is maybe a reader space.
Jo:Like, maybe if people want to have an absolutely dead ass, like, want to have a reader space, maybe Reddit does it. Do you know what I mean?
Tiana:Yeah. Yeah. Usually, the point that I'm making about and I know you agree with me on this about, like, writer space and reader space is that I just don't think that you can have that on a website like a o three because, like, it is it is the community space. But when you take it off-site and you go elsewhere, for example, I guess we could kind of parallel this with like my video I that I made about Reddit talking about like if there is a reader space writer space on a o three. When that video ended up on Reddit and people started to pick apart the video and kind of like criticize what I was saying, someone sent me the link being like, hey, you ended up on Reddit.
Tiana:I just wanted to let you know. And I didn't click into it because I knew if I did and then I started to read what people were saying about me, that was my I had to be accountable for the fact that I chose to go read it. Right? And so I that's why I, you know, employed my sister to go do it for me so that I, like, knew, like, you know, and, like and then I moved on because, you know, it it is very different from if somebody literally walks into your house and starts criticizing your curtains kinda like people do in the a o three comment section as opposed to Reddit. They walked into their own home, I guess you could say, and chose to do that.
Tiana:And that's different and that's not my business. You know? And so it's kind of like, it's very different when you're criticizing a fic off of a o three versus on a o three because it's like, you know, in a way, I'm curating my space in my a o three comment section. If you're gonna be a dick, I'm gonna tell you you're gonna be a dick. But if you're gonna go criticize my fic on Reddit, whatever, be a dick over there.
Tiana:I don't care. That's not my space, you know. So I I very much agree to your point on that for sure.
Jo:Yeah. We're probably gonna wrap up the episode soon, but I wanted to kind of end on maybe a little bit of a more positive note.
Tiana:Listen, we can just complain all day. I'm I'm happy to do it.
Jo:And especially, I was wondering if, you know, I've noticed obviously that the community and the fandom community and fanfic community on TikTok specifically is growing and it's you know, you've got more and more people, you know, commenting and and getting enthusiastic about fan fiction on TikTok showing their faces, showing their names sometimes, like and I was wondering, obviously, that's like massive change from the situation that we used to know at least a few years ago where, you know, it was very, very shameful to even admit that you were reading fan fiction, let alone, like, write it. And so I'm wondering if you've noticed a positive change and if you think, you know, it it where do you think that's going? And do you think that's going towards, like, more acceptance of fan fiction in wider society? Or what do you think about it?
Tiana:Speaking on it positively, because I do think that, unfortunately, like every topic ever, there are gonna be pros and cons to it. But just speaking on the pros, I I think that it's really, really endearing and personally incredible to see it be so different now than it was, you know, ten, fifteen years ago in the sense that I do feel like nowadays, I can very openly talk about fan fiction, which already, just in the past, like, decade, I've slowly got more comfortable talking to people in my personal life about. Because, like, when I was, a young teenager, like, even an older teenager and, like, very early in my adult years, I was so scared to even mention it to anybody. Even, my best
Blayne:like a dirty secret.
Tiana:Yeah. It was truly a dirty secret. Like, it was, like, the dirtiest secret that I had and, like, even my two best friends who are still my best friends to this day, my absolute ride or dies. I was like, they knew that I did it, but I did not talk about it with them, and that was, like, a boundary that I drew because I felt really ashamed about it and I was afraid that they were gonna be really judgmental even though they were like, we're not gonna judge you. We just wanna hear about it.
Tiana:But like and then I slowly started to open up to them and now I feel like I've reached this point where I'm really open about it with everybody, like, in my life. Like, even like an average Joe. Like, I currently I'm currently working at a local bookstore. It's a newer job that I got. I love it a lot.
Tiana:And, like, because it's also a place where I get to talk about, like, books that I'm reading and, like, writing, I will have people come up to me and they like, they'll come up to me with, like, the hurricane wars to purchase it. And the hurricane wars is based off of a Raylo fanfic. And so I'll immediately just launch into, oh my gosh, this used to be a Raylo fan fiction. I read the fan fiction. It's so good.
Tiana:I can't wait for you to read this book. And like and then honestly, 70 not even 75, like, I guess you would almost say, like, 85% of the time now. I get people who are like, oh my gosh, you read fan fiction. That's so cool. I've always wanted to read fan fiction.
Tiana:I just don't know how to get into it. And, like, I get a lot of people who are like willing to engage with me and actually discuss it as like an actual hobby and like an actual thing as opposed to this like silly little online nobody talks about it because like it's weird, it's cringey. And I think that although we are seen just to touch on a con very briefly, we are seeing a little bit of a full circle people are going back to you're not allowed to be cringey, which is a whole other topic within itself. But I do think that there are large facets of people who have started to reembrace the cringe and recognize that also to be cringey is just to be human. So sorry to say that controversial take, but, like, I'm literally just existing and you're calling me cringey.
Tiana:Got it. You know what I mean? Like, in the sense that it's like
Blayne:Like, I'm a chewy millennial, and I'm proud of it.
Tiana:Like like like, I I'm I'm gonna sit down, and I'm gonna write my little, like, ditty about my two favorite characters kissing and making out. Like, sure. That's cringey. Whatever. I don't care.
Tiana:You're gonna read it anyway. You know what I mean? And, like, and so I think that we're just seeing this really good progression into fan fiction can be talked about even if it doesn't even if, like, the really big it becoming mainstream, it does have a little bit of a negative on it. I think the really small positive ways that it's becoming mainstream is also really worth talking about in terms of like, I can just talk about it in my personal life and truly not feel nearly as much judgment. There's still gonna be judgment.
Tiana:Don't get me wrong. There are some people who are gonna kinda like roll their eyes at me a little bit, but like overall, I also get to have the, I guess you could say consequence or the added benefit of I no longer feel ashamed for that though. You know? And I think that, like, helping people feel less shame for their favorite hobby is, like, really important because it's like, why are we why are we shaming somebody for something that they engage in and it's just something that they get enjoyment out of and it's not hurting anybody. You know?
Tiana:Like, that's fine. And I think that that's really incredible to see. And I think that specifically in terms of on a large scale platform like TikTok, obviously, there like I said, there's gonna be pros and cons to that. But the pro is is that it's bringing more people into fandom. And, yes, some of those people, like I said, want the community to adapt to them.
Tiana:But luckily, we also, in tandem, have people who are entering who are willing to learn and to listen, you know, and I think that that's also an added important benefit. You know what I mean? So, yeah, that's kind of my spiel on the positive effects, but, you know, well, we can talk about the negative effects another time.
Jo:No. I I I totally agree. And I think, like, you can chime in on that as well. Funnily enough, as I announced in the last episode that we released, I'm actually gonna quit my day job soon and pursue a master's in creative writing.
Tiana:Oh, congratulations. That's so exciting to And,
Jo:you know, part of that was, like, obviously, I've never spoken about writing and let alone fan fiction on to anyone in my work, like, and anyone in my, like, in real life. Like, it was always something apart from, like, very few select best friends, like, I wouldn't talk about it. I wouldn't talk about my hobbies or anything at work. And, obviously, because I had to quit, I had to explain to people at work what I was doing. Yeah.
Jo:And why I was quitting without anything else lined up. And my you know, what I will say to that is people do not give a fuck. They don't care. Yeah. People do not care.
Jo:Like, I was expecting to get a lot of people being like, oh, really? You're you're white? You think you can write? Like Yeah. None of that.
Jo:The only thing that I got was, like, either people completely uncaring, like, being like, oh, that's good. Like, you're pursuing your passion, like, whatever. And then some people being like, oh my god. You like books? I like books too.
Jo:Let's talk about books. Yeah.
Blayne:And
Jo:and it was something that, like, we had never discussed before because I was so quiet about it. And and obviously, that's like writing in general. It's not necessarily fan fiction in particular. But I do think we kind of tend to fantasize a little bit about how much people are gonna think and, like, what are they gonna think and that what are I was terrified that someone would ask, like, oh, can I read what you write? No one asked.
Jo:Like, no one cared.
Tiana:Yeah. It is like kind of interesting when you're finally vulnerable about it and then you realize like, oh, maybe I didn't. And for reasons, like, no one actually gives a shit. Like, okay. Got it.
Blayne:Fascinating because it like really revolves around like several, like, conversations I've been having, like, out in the real world with friends of mine. Like, you know, Tony, you brought up this kind of idea around like shame and like why why do people, you know, feel shame around, you know, bringing up a hobby that might necessarily you know, not necessarily be seen as, the quote, unquote coolest in this idea of, like, not wanting to seem cringe. And I think it's often, like, reposted online. I if you need to know one thing about me, it's that I'm terminally online.
Tiana:Oh my
Jo:god. And
Tiana:I talk people I am as well.
Blayne:Oh my god. I'm I am way too online. But there's a it was a it was like an Instagram story response from the actress who I wanna say her name is Piper Peribault. And someone was like, know, how do you, like, overcome, like, feeling, like, social anxiety or that people aren't gonna like you or this, that, and the other? And she has, like, the funniest look on her face, and her literally it's like, she doesn't say anything.
Blayne:It's a still photo. And the caption is just, I think you guys think about yourselves too much.
Tiana:Oh my god. I think about
Blayne:that all of the time where I'm just like, I think so much of this is just like and I'm gonna try and say this in the nicest way possible. Like, pull your head out of your dick hole like no one cares.
Tiana:That's so true.
Blayne:Like, legitimately, no one cares. And if someone is gonna kinda come at you with this, like, you know, oh, well, why are you doing it this way? Like, I mean, not to sound, like, really, like, after school special, but, like, it's it is such an issue with them. I was I was out at drinks with a with a friend of mine the other day, and she is a self reported fat bitch about town. And she was like, I think it's so funny because I think the reason why, like, you know, skinny people really hate fat people.
Blayne:We were talking about, like, trans people. Why, like, some cis people really hate trans people or why, like, you know, insert insert powerful group really hates marginalized group is because it's this idea of, like, you are finding a freedom and a way to kind of exist outside of this really constrained narrow box that, you know, now fascism is is is further tightening. And this idea of, like, I wish to God that I could eat that bread, and I'm not allowing myself to, and you are, and, like, finding joy in it. I think people really do crave the idea of, like, being a little chewy, being a little dorky, and, like, being seen for that. And, like like, I mean, throwing it back to the idea of, you know, writing and then, you know, other people reading dark dicks that are like, oh, I just had to get this out of my system.
Blayne:Like, don't know where that came from. Moving on. But, like, the we all have this kind of aspects of ourself, and I think it kinda comes down to this a this worrying social trend of, like, wanting to, like, control not only just how other people perceive us, but, like, how we perceive ourselves. And I'm like, just let go. Like, just it's you're thinking about yourself way too much.
Blayne:Like, pull your head out of your ass. It like, none of this is that serious. Write the fic. Post the fic. If you don't like it, don't read it.
Blayne:And if you do, leave a comment.
Jo:Exactly. Thank you. Thank you so much.
Tiana:Dude, that was literally the summary of everything you just talked about.
Blayne:Oh,
Tiana:so beautifully. I I literally was like, man, how are we gonna end this? And, Blaine, damn, dude. I just
Jo:Okay. Well, thank you so much for joining us.
Tiana:And Oh my gosh. I had a fucking blast. You have no idea. This was everything to me.
Jo:This was great. So do you have any recommendations for our readers in terms of you know, it could be a fic that you enjoyed. It could be some an article about fan fiction, like, anything.
Tiana:Do you
Jo:have any recommendations for us?
Tiana:Oh my gosh. I need you to understand I agonized over this all morning, and I was gonna recommend I, okay, I definitely have I'll I'll recommend two things just to give a little flavor. I've already recommended this first one on my TikTok before, and I'd and I've I'll just do it again, though. I've been currently following along with a Zutara fan fiction, Zuko Zuko and Katara from Avatar the Last Airbonder. And, it's it's a work in progress.
Tiana:It's been going on for a couple years now, but it's called Salt and Scale. I it's it's
Blayne:literally bookmarking this right now.
Tiana:It's so good. It's go it's very much going to be an epic. I think only a couple chapters ago, the author in one of their author's notes said that we're only a third of the way through the story. So it's definitely going to be like, everybody buckle the fuck up. This is gonna be ride, and I'm buckled in.
Tiana:I've been buckled in for a while. So I really I do recommend that if it's a pairing that you're interested in or it is an explicit work, obviously, so please read the tags before you, you know, read the rest of the work. But then the other thing I will recommend is a book I read recently, because I went on kind of a little bit of a reading binge when I took I took, like, a week long break from TikTok recently, and I did a lot of reading while I was away. And, one of the books I read was called Immortal Dark. It is a vampire book, kind of set in like, it's about this, like, vampire university almost.
Tiana:And, like, it the the main character is incredibly fucked up. And I think that, like, that is, like, something I'm trying to, like, seek out more is I really wanna read books with, like, a main character that isn't, like, sanitized and, like, you know, palatable. Like, I want to read about, like, fucked up characters more because I think it's a very interesting thing to, like, explore. And it's going to be a series. I don't know how long the sequel comes out in the fall.
Tiana:It's it's very, good. Also, a a a black queer author, I believe. And it's it's I think it's a really cool fresh take on, like, vampire lore and vampire fiction. So I really recommend everybody read that so that I can scream into the void with you about it because no one else in my personal life has read it, so I have no one to talk to about it. And I'm like, please, I just I need to talk about it with somebody.
Tiana:You know? So I do recommend that.
Jo:That was Blaine and Severance with me.
Blayne:Oh my god. It was. I every single person I met, I was like, have
Tiana:you read have you seen Severance? Have you seen And I really hate to break it to you. I also haven't seen it.
Blayne:I'm so sorry. I'm gonna find someone.
Jo:I committed the worst sin? Because I started watching it, and then I told her I DNF'd it. Oh, no.
Blayne:Just edging me. I okay. I have to say, I pulled up Salt and Scale, and it has, I think, my new favorite tag I've ever seen in the world. 12 year old me wanted them to fall in love. 30 year old me wants them to fuck nasty.
Tiana:Yes. That
Jo:is the best tag I've ever seen.
Tiana:Oh my god.
Blayne:More people need to use that tag.
Tiana:Dude, I know. I'm like, I'm like, okay. Should I just write a fic about, like, an old pairing of mine just so that I could use that tag and, like, expand on it? Because it's so funny.
Jo:And so where can we find you online if anybody wants to find you?
Tiana:Absolutely. My TikTok is Tina with an a, all words scrunched together. You can also find me under that same username on, Instagram if you'd like to follow me. I believe I also have that as my username on blue sky. And then also on YouTube, have been very slow moving over the past few months, but I am trying to do like more long form content on YouTube.
Tiana:I actually currently have a video up that I posted. I wanna say it went live technically in September, but it was posted in July. I just had to deal with a bunch of copyright issues. But I did like a part one. That's it's three and a half hours, just part one.
Tiana:That's like a recap of a Turkish soap opera that I watched that I was I fixate on it. I fixate on it so bad, you guys. It was really embarrassing. And and so I made, like, this giant YouTube recap video that I haven't even finished because there's gonna be a part two that I still need to edit and post. And if so if anyone's interested, you can go watch that.
Tiana:If you wanna see me once again yap at the camera in a different capacity because that's my favorite thing to do. I love yapping. I'm a big talker, obviously, if you couldn't tell by this entire podcast episode. So, yeah, those are the places you can find me. I, you know, I I really do encourage conversation.
Tiana:I love meeting new people. And so, you know, hit me up if anyone is ever interested in talking fandom. So
Jo:Thank you so much for joining us. And for anyone who is listening and wants to find us online, we are the fanficwriterscraft.com on Tumblr. You could find us and send us an ask or suggestions for topics for next episode. Our ask box is open. And if you want to help finance the podcast, you can head to code ashley forward slash the fabthickwriterscraft.
Jo:This helps us pay for our hosting fees. Thank you so much for joining us. And as far as Blayne and I are concerned, we will see you soon. Bye, everyone.
Tiana:Happy to go. Thank you. Bye.